For those that have read the book on Stoicism that MMM recommends...

[octavius]

For those that have read the book on Stoicism that MMM recommends, what did you think? 

From what I gathered from MMM's blog that covered it -- it sounds like it shares a lot of ideas with Buddhism, at least in terms of not getting attached to material things. 

Think I'll have to download the trial pages on iBooks and check it out, but curious what others here thought of it.

Given the number of different forums this site has -- I was surprised there isn't one on Stoicism -- given how important it seemed to MMM.

Cheers :)

[trailrated]

The author actually explains how he sought out Buddhism initially but after learning more about stoicism he felt it was a better fit for him personally.

My take on the book, it is written by a professor so the writing itself is not overly engaging and is a little more "academic", but the concepts and how it made me think after reading it was pretty profound. If you are looking for a more "fun read" you might want to check out a book called The Obstacle is the Way. But for a good background on the Stoics and how you can use some of the teachings to change your life the MMM recommended book is great.

Hope this helps.

[octavius]

Interesting regarding the author and Buddhism, I'll look for that --  I downloaded it and am just starting it.  I'll keep the other book in mind as well.

Thanks for the insight.

[Professor Ecks]

I'll be honest, I started reading the book gung-ho right after reading the MMM article about it. However, as trailrated points out, the writing is not that engaging. I lost interest pretty quickly (in the book, not the philosophy). In my opinion, MMM did a superb job of summarizing the philosophy presented in the book, and I feel his insight is plenty sufficient for me. Of course, I am a big fan of someone who can tell me in twenty words that which takes others 100 words to express.

[BooksAreNerdy]

I really enjoyed the book. About 3/4 of the way through, I just started skimming chapters.

Its an important philosophy, borrow it from the library. Its worth skimming, at least!

[Bardo]

As it happens I just finished Marcus Aurelius' Meditations on Sunday.  I found it a bit of a slog, although I was able to see the commonality with Buddhism in that the world is impermanent, so therefore there is little to be gained by attachment to possessions, emotions or transient states of being. 

[octavius]

I've downloaded the entire book (was only 12 bucks from the iTunes store... and I had a gift card) so I've already read a number of pages.

I find it quite interesting.  Seems like it is very similar to Zen Buddhism... except Stoicism relies on logic instead of faith, but otherwise they have a lot in common in terms of their respective goals in how to view the world and your place in it.

I've had two seriious Buddhist friends in my life (one was a serious GF for a while)... both tried very hard to talk to me about it (for some reason they both seemed to feel I'd like it), but I could never get past the parts that Buddhism inherited from Hinduism... the concern with reincarnation and final enlightenment (nirvana)... etc.  I found parts of it appealing... but just not enough of it to take it as seriously as others do.

Stoicism seems pretty interesting.  Kind of reminds of of Spock as well ;-)
 

[lifejoy]

Great concept, but like the others... I totally have not finished the book (yet).

[Ynari]

Wow, it feels like such a big secret since no one's mentioned the title.  For reference, MMM's review is here.

I'll be looking into it. I'm interested by something that can be described as a more Spock-like Buddhism.

[octavius]

Wow, it feels like such a big secret since no one's mentioned the title.  For reference, MMM's review is here.

I'll be looking into it. I'm interested by something that can be described as a more Spock-like Buddhism.

Good point.  I wasn't trying to be secretive, I had simply assumed that everybody else already read his blog about it, but I'm realizing that not everyone in the forums has read all of the blogs.

The book is named “A Guide to the Good Life, The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy”

Also, here is a link to it's goodreads page http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/5789357-a-guide-to-the-good-life-the-ancient-art-of-stoic-joy
Which includes the ability to see some preview pages of the book.

[zinnie]

I also started it but never finished. The writing was just dull and covered all things I had already thought about (at least in the first third or so.)

The Antidote by Oliver Burkeman covers similar themes and I really enjoyed that one. It goes through multiple philosophies including stoicism. It is about happiness, but a lot more as well.

[Cromacster]

So I haven't read the book...but does anyone else see the irony about people not being able to finish a book about stoicism?

[Lyssa]

I've read it in two days and at no point started skimming pages. I realized that I had unintentionally formed a stoic habit of visualizing how much worse things could be and after reading the book adopted some of the theoretical concepts behind the philosophy along with a few more practical approches. I agree that stoicism is a philosophy most appealing for the vulcans and INTJs among us. :-)

[WildJager]

I read it and thoroughly enjoyed it.  I didn't find it boring at all, but I'm an avid reader so I've read many more dry books.  The timing was impeccable for me too, as I was going through some trials in my life at that point, so I was able to apply the teachings to my own life in real time.  And, frankly, it's probably less dry than the old texts on stoicism, so that helps.

One of my favorite takeaways from the book is simply being content with those influences out of your control, which includes the present moment.  Don't like the moment you're in?  Don't dwell on it... simply change your course and adjust what you can control (the future). 

The only thing I didn't really agree with the stoics on is their viewpoints on sex.  They basically advocated that sex should just be used for reproduction.  Though I'm sure enjoying life and sex with your spouse is different today when we choose someone we're compatible with emotionally, rather than the logical arrangements they made in the past.  A lot of the stoics seemed to dislike other people for their flaws, which I'm sure contributes to that.  I personally don't have that hang up.

[WildJager]

So I haven't read the book...but does anyone else see the irony about people not being able to finish a book about stoicism?

Haha.  I was thinking the same thing...

I rationalized that as the people who actually decide to adopt the philosophy are more likely to finish, rather than those viewing with a passive interest.  In that case I could imagine growing bored with the book.

[matimeo]

I thought it was a pretty good book. Not the most engaging, but interesting to read to the end (with a little skimming). I have to say that as a Christian, I found it very compatible with my faith, and reinforcing/strengthening in many ways. Below are some of the notes I took, bits and pieces I liked, how I applied them to my life. Sorry if it's long, but it might give you a feel for the book  of you're thinking of reading it. .

Many people in our society do not have a philosophy of life. Many therefore default to an enlighten form of hedonism,  including those who are religious.

Research on desire shows agreement that it was unlikely to have a good and meaningful life, unless we can overcome our insatiability. Also agreement that one wonderful way to tame our tendency to always want more is to persuade ourselves to want the things we already have.

Desire no joy greater than your inner joy.

Hedonic Adaptation: We humans are unhappy in large part because we are insatiable. After working hard to get what we want, we routinely lose interest in the object of our desire, get bored and form new and bigger desires. 66

As a result of the adaptation process, people find themselves on a satisfaction treadmill. They are unhappy when they detect an unfulfilled desires within them. They work hard to fulfill this desire, in the belief that on fulfilling it, they will gain satisfaction. The problem, though is that once they fulfill a desire for something, they adapt to its presence in their life and as a result stop desiring it- or at any rate, don't find it as desirable as they once did. They end up just as dissatisfied as they were before filling the desire. 67

We need a technique for creating in ourselves a desire for the things we already have. The easiest way for us to gain happiness is to learn how to want the things already have.

Suggests negative visualization: to regularly contemplate losing the people and things you love. In a weird way, I think the purpose of this exercise is to encourage us to appreciate be grateful for what is right in front of us, leading us to greater happiness.

Stoics don't become pessimists because of this way of thinking, but actually optimists. You see things as amazing and essentially express gratitude and amazement for the world around you.

By thinking about your potential loss you can potentially regain your appreciation of it. "One reason children are capable of joy is because they take almost nothing for granted. To them, the world is wonderfully new and surprising. Not only that, but they aren't yet sure how the world works. Perhaps the things they have today will mysteriously vanish tomorrow. It is hard for them to take something for granted when they can't even count on its continued existence."

Imagine how someone living through a catastrophe has caused to reexamine their life, and be appreciative of what they do have. We can experience this without the danger through negative visualizations.

He argues that a prayer of thanks is a form of negative visualization. "Before eating a meal, those saying grace pause for a moment to reflect on the fact that this food might not have been available to them, in which case they would have gone hungry. And even if the food were available, they might not have been able to share it with the people now at the dinner table. Said with these thoughts in mind, Grace has the ability to transform an ordinary meal into a cause for celebration." 77

Analyze your circumstances not in terms of what you are lacking but in terms of how much you have and how much you would miss it if you were to lose it.

With negative visualization you are contemplating, not worrying about what could happen.  This isn't accompanied by negative emotions.

We learn to enjoy what we have without clinging to it.  83

A strategy for getting what you want: make it your goal to want only those things that are easy to obtain - and ideally to want only those things that you can be certain of obtaining. 85

Contentment is gained by changing our desires rather than by trying to change the world around us.  86

Focus on the things you can control and ignore the things you can't.

A stoic sets goals for things that are in his control. Rather than have the goal my wife will love me, have the goal that I will, to the best of my ability, behave in a lovable manner.

This section of the book concerns itself with the focus on things we can control. And in terms of those things over which we have some, but not total control, we can still focus our goals on the aspects that are in our control. By doing this, we actually end up with better outcomes. Example of a tennis match: rather than having the goal of winning, have the goal of playing to the best of my ability. Thus will likely lead to better play, while focusing on winning might cause frustration. 96

Fatalism: rather than wanting events to conform to our desires, make our desires conform to the events; we should, in other words, want events to happen as they (have already or are presently) do happen. (think about avoiding should statements and the book "Loving What Is"). 102

"we must learn to welcome whatever falls to our lot and persuade ourselves that whatever happens to us is for the best".  I note that a belief in God makes this much easier to do.

This fatalism is about things past and present, but not future.

Embracing the present moment vs wishing it could be different. 107

Worry that all of this will lead to complacency and lack of ambition? They were indifferent to worldly success, but not unmotivated. They tend to not seek success, but find it anyway.

110 self-denial
Besides contemplating bad things that could happen to us, we should sometimes live as if they had happened.

In many cases we work hard to obtain something because we are convinced that we would be miserable without it. The problem is that we can live perfectly well without some of these things, but we won't know which they are if we don't try living without them.

The discomfort is not self-inflicted masochism, rather is a welcomed thing.  "voluntary discomfort"

"someone who tries to avoid all discomfort is less likely to be comfortable then someone to periodically embraces discomfort"

Stoics also believed in periodically forgo opportunities to experience pleasure. Because pleasure has a dark side. " the more pleasures a man captures the more masters will he have to serve."  The idea is to learn self control and avoid becoming a slave to our desires.

Meditation 119
Take time to be an impartial observer of your practice of stoicism. This is like the impartial spectator idea. Uses nighttime meditations, like a review of the day

[StarswirlTheMustached]

I didn't find it dry at all. Did I drop my book in the bath by mistake?

I did find it annoyingly repetitive at times, but I chalked that up to Iriving writing for a popular audience, with Internet-shortened attention spans. You really have to hammer things in over and over again, these days.

I find Irving's edits to the philosophy not-particularly-helpful : his attempt to turn the traditional 'dichotomy of control' (things you can control, and so care about, and things you can't, so don't) into a trichotomy (adding things you have influence, but not complete control over), for example, just confuses the issue. Even he tells you not to worry about things you only influence, but to focus on the aspect you control -- exactly what the Ancient Stoics would tell you with their dichotomy.

That's okay, though. It's a decent introduction, with lots of practical advice and techniques, which are hugely helpful.

If you're looking for free resources before you buy a book, there's quite a bit online.
The Stoicism Today blog is excellent, and has a lot of resources put out to support its annual "Stoic Week" (want a free course on Stoicism? They have a free course on Stoicism.)
http://blogs.exeter.ac.uk/stoicismtoday/
A friend of mine started from https://howtobeastoic.wordpress.com/stoicism-101/
which gives you most of the tricks in one easy package. (More specific with regards to technique than MMM's overview.)

The only thing I didn't really agree with the stoics on is their viewpoints on sex.  They basically advocated that sex should just be used for reproduction.  Though I'm sure enjoying life and sex with your spouse is different today when we choose someone we're compatible with emotionally, rather than the logical arrangements they made in the past.  A lot of the stoics seemed to dislike other people for their flaws, which I'm sure contributes to that.  I personally don't have that hang up.

Remember that there while AIDS and syphilis hadn't shown up yet, there were venereal diseases in the ancient world, and no effective medicine. Anthropologists have shown that there's a correlation between sexual prudery and disease pressure*. There's also the issue of birth control: if you haven't got it, sex had better be for reproduction, or you're going to be disappointed.
Now, there were birth control methods in the ancient world (sheep gut condoms, sea-sponge diaphrams, an herbal 'Plan-B' called silphium that went extinct from over-harvesting during Nero's reign), but... would you trust any of those? Silphium, maybe. But given it was rare enough to be driven to extinction, it was probably restricted to the upper classes. So, in accordance with their philosophy, the Stoics stay in harmony with the reality they know: that sex often resulted in reproduction, and could make you very, very sick if you were unfaithful.

Our reality is different. We have effective birth control, and can make sure our partners test for STDs. Therefore we do not have to adapt our values in the same way the Stoics do. We're free to apply their philosophy to the sexual environment we live in, which (through negative visualization, occasional abstinence, etc) will allow us to extract greater, more mindful pleasure from the experience while simultaneously not becoming too attached.


 *(indeed, some contest that it was widespread antibiotics to cure VD that prompted the sexual revolution at least as much as birth control, which was not yet available in many areas during the Summer of Love. Rates of extramarital sex were believed to have been on the rise even before The Pill was invented.)

[Kristoferly]

Generally the William Irvine book is 'alright', it's a good intro to Stoicism without being overly academic or too much like a book about philosophy. However, I agree with the above post, the tampering with some of the essential characteristics of Stoicism does tend to dilute the effectiveness of the overall message.

The Stoicism Today blog and Stoicism Week are excellent resources and I recommend them...with some caveats. The author of the blog, Donald Robertson, tends to promote or support a particular version of Stoicism, that being late Roman Stoicism and does not care for the earlier Cynic influenced elements of the original Classical Greek philosophy. While this is the Stoicism of Marcus Aurelius it is also quite removed from the original philosophy as formulated by Zeno of Citium. The author of the blog has also written a Teach Yourself Stoic Philosophy book. Quite good, and in many respects superior to William Irvine's book. It offers much more depth and presents a very comprehensive coverage of Stoicism and how to actually live it.

As for the original sources,  rather than read Marcus Aurelius, read Epictetus' Enchiridion and his Discourses. I would even recommend Seneca's 'On the Shortness of Life'. Despite Seneca not being a very good Stoic he was an excellent writer and philosopher. For the advanced reader there is also Musonius Rufus.

[LSK]

I read and liked The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy, but I only got half way in his "On Desire", though.
I really feel like the philosophical part of MMM is overshadowed by all the financial talks and what not. So I am thankful for the recommendation of the Donald Robertson book on stoic happiness, and ordered it immediately through the public library....Did I mention  how awesome public libraries are? :-)

[Roots&Wings]

The only thing I didn't really agree with the stoics on is their viewpoints on sex.  They basically advocated that sex should just be used for reproduction.  Though I'm sure enjoying life and sex with your spouse is different today when we choose someone we're compatible with emotionally, rather than the logical arrangements they made in the past.  A lot of the stoics seemed to dislike other people for their flaws, which I'm sure contributes to that.  I personally don't have that hang up.

Remember that there while AIDS and syphilis hadn't shown up yet, there were venereal diseases in the ancient world, and no effective medicine. Anthropologists have shown that there's a correlation between sexual prudery and disease pressure*. There's also the issue of birth control: if you haven't got it, sex had better be for reproduction, or you're going to be disappointed.
Now, there were birth control methods in the ancient world (sheep gut condoms, sea-sponge diaphrams, an herbal 'Plan-B' called silphium that went extinct from over-harvesting during Nero's reign), but... would you trust any of those? Silphium, maybe. But given it was rare enough to be driven to extinction, it was probably restricted to the upper classes. So, in accordance with their philosophy, the Stoics stay in harmony with the reality they know: that sex often resulted in reproduction, and could make you very, very sick if you were unfaithful.

Our reality is different. We have effective birth control, and can make sure our partners test for STDs. Therefore we do not have to adapt our values in the same way the Stoics do. We're free to apply their philosophy to the sexual environment we live in, which (through negative visualization, occasional abstinence, etc) will allow us to extract greater, more mindful pleasure from the experience while simultaneously not becoming too attached.


 *(indeed, some contest that it was widespread antibiotics to cure VD that prompted the sexual revolution at least as much as birth control, which was not yet available in many areas during the Summer of Love. Rates of extramarital sex were believed to have been on the rise even before The Pill was invented.)

Interesting...I thought the sex advice (to have sex in a married relationship for reproduction) was part of not seeking out excess pleasure and following lustful desire that can disturb tranquility, similar to fancy food and expensive luxuries.

[spokey doke]

Agreeing with many here, I found the book very interesting overall, primarily because of the content and history of Stoicism, and despite some of the writing - which seemed to me to be an academic trying to write for a popular audience, and making things a bit repetitive and overly drawn out in places.

The Stoicism described does seem like a nice fit for westerners, particularly of a mustachien bent, and it nails many of our  typical problems and provides useful practices for alleviating them.  I also think there are many contemporary representations of Buddhism that do that at least as well, but either path is really quite helpful.

[Roots&Wings]

I also really enjoyed this book. The negative visualization technique alone has positively impacted my outlook. By consciously thinking about the loss of what we have, we can regain our appreciation of it, instead of taking things (and people) for granted.

The tips for dealing with insults (humor or no response), anger, annoying people, setting internal goals rather than external outcome-based goals (e.g. deliver my presentation to the best of my ability, not wow the audience, which is out of my control; or play the best game I can, not win the match) have been quite helpful for me.

[arebelspy]

I personally feel that a more in-depth look at Stoicism is worth doing, rather than the shallow concepts AGTTGL gives you.

[Roots&Wings]

I personally feel that a more in-depth look at Stoicism is worth doing, rather than the shallow concepts AGTTGL gives you.

Any recommendations in particular?

I just made it through the complete extant writings of Epictectus, and agree that AGTTGL misses a lot of depth! My library system unfortunately doesn't have anything by Diogenes.

[arebelspy]

The classics, worth reading and rereading, are Meditations, The Enchiridion, and anything by Seneca.

[BooksAreNerdy]

So I haven't read the book...but does anyone else see the irony about people not being able to finish a book about stoicism?

Haha.  I was thinking the same thing...

I rationalized that as the people who actually decide to adopt the philosophy are more likely to finish, rather than those viewing with a passive interest.  In that case I could imagine growing bored with the book.

For me, it was the opposite. Once I got the gist of the philosophy and had really internalized how I could apply it to my life, the last few chapters just seemed unnecessary. So, it wasn't boredom that kept me from finishing, just that I was ready to stop reading and put it into action.