Author Topic: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.  (Read 61667 times)

koshtra

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2019, 10:22:32 PM »
I thought of Johann Hari's book, too: glad you've got a hold on it. Another book I thought of was Michael Pollan's book, How to Change Your Mind, in particular the chapter about death anxiety. You're pretty radically isolated. There's other ways to be.

It's simply true that we and everyone we love are on schedule to get old and die. If confronting that fact blows up the structure of your life, then it was an unsustainable structure anyway, and the sooner you move on to something sturdier, the better. 

And hey, I'm so sorry. The suffering can be intense, I know. But there's actually lots of paths out of it.

familyandfarming

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2019, 07:10:22 AM »
This thread made me think of Brad Pitt. While going through his tough time, he turned to art; sculpture specifically. Have you considered taking an art class? Or just picking up an art hobby? I taught art for decades and can tell you it’s a wonderful release for so many!

LibrarianFuzz

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #52 on: July 18, 2019, 08:04:25 AM »
Are you sure it’s FIRE causing these feelings?

There’s a proven huge dip in happiness at midlife. Things get better around 50.

See: https://www.amazon.com/Happiness-Curve-Life-Better-After/dp/1250078806/

BFGirl

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #53 on: July 18, 2019, 10:03:43 AM »
I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I've had issues with anxiety and below are a couple of things that have helped me refocus my mind when it races with the "what ifs." 

One book was Feeling Good which is basically cognitive behavioral therapy.  It helped me stop beating myself up for not being perfect and to recognize the criticizing voice in my head.

Currently I am reading a book on mindfulness based stress reduction called Full Catastrophe Living.  My latest anxiety has been related to possible health issues and some challenges I may have going forward.  I was spending so much time in my head worrying about the future, that I was not enjoying the wonderful current moments that I have.  None of us are guaranteed a long or healthy life.  I can try to make healthy lifestyle choices, but other than that, most of it is out of my control.  I am really trying to focus on being in the moment and finding the spots of joy that exist in each day.  Otherwise I am living my life either regretting choices I've made or living in a myriad of awful future possibilities that may never come to pass.  Just being aware of that, and bringing my mind back to the moment I am actually in, has helped to reduce my anxiety.

I don't know if this will work for you, but I thought I would share.

kork

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #54 on: July 19, 2019, 07:23:11 AM »
Quote
Seconded. I have high social needs, and periods of working from home have been miiiiiserable. Even though I also hate waking up to an alarm and WFH allowed me to wake up later. My best schedule was working from home in the morning, then walking to the office for the second half of the day. Now in FIRE, I try to get out of the house every day and participate in lots of group events, because otherwise I'll sink into rumination and laziness. Does your job allow you to easily switch to an office? Or a WeWork maybe?

Regarding the working from home,  yes, that was actually one of my big obstacles from my other thread. Went from a smaller home that was in the middle of a loud, busy area to quiet and isolation. For the last 8 years I've mainly worked from home with 1-2 days in the office each week.  But since moving to our new home, I barely see anyone during the day.

I've looked into co-working spaces and there's 3 where I am and one one I actually have a free week to try. I'll be doing so when the kids are in camp rather than when they're at home.

[ADDED]I live 2.5 hours from my office.  So going in for a half day or a few days of the week presents a whole different set of issues.  Plus, I don't really have working space at the office.

Quote
As others have said for sleep and relaxation; take 250mg of L-thanine coupled with 500mg magnesium.
Quote
I take an OTC from Costco. Kirkland Sleep Aide.  Half a dose keeps me asleep mostly for 5-6 hour stretches.

Sleep is so important. I also take 400mg of Magnesium which is helpful for anxiety.  Learned you can take Motrin for emotional pain. I’ve also got Lorazepam that I take once in a blue moon, it’s powerful stuff. I’ve found even nibbling on a pill or just the dust in the bottle to be enough to take the edge off.
To others, thank you for the tip on sleeping and L-thanine along with magnesium. I'll give that a shot.  I was actually able to sleep until 5am today and then drift in and out for the next few hours.

Quote
Are you sure it’s FIRE causing these feelings?

There’s a proven huge dip in happiness at midlife. Things get better around 50.

I've considered this as well. But I thought it was the circumstances at 40 for most that would create less satisfaction.  Working hard, no money, mortgage, saving for kids education, and all sorts of stuff.  We're done with all that.  Kids education is accounted for.  Retirements savings are arguably done, time (or lack thereof) isn't an issue.  We have 7 family dinners together each week at the table, without TV.  Talking about the day.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I always chalked up dissatisfaction in the curve due to being circumstantial for a 40 years old?

Also, so many other great comments. I love hearing others stories.  They seem to be what helps the most.  It adds perspective and helps with the "you're not alone" feelings.



« Last Edit: July 19, 2019, 07:38:11 AM by kork »

KBecks

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #55 on: July 19, 2019, 07:31:35 AM »
There is a good book on aging called Aging Well.  I read it when I was around 29, LOL.  Aging is not so bad.

MonkeyJenga

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #56 on: July 19, 2019, 08:45:31 AM »
Quote
Seconded. I have high social needs, and periods of working from home have been miiiiiserable. Even though I also hate waking up to an alarm and WFH allowed me to wake up later. My best schedule was working from home in the morning, then walking to the office for the second half of the day. Now in FIRE, I try to get out of the house every day and participate in lots of group events, because otherwise I'll sink into rumination and laziness. Does your job allow you to easily switch to an office? Or a WeWork maybe?

Regarding the working from home,  yes, that was actually one of my big obstacles from my other thread. Went from a smaller home that was in the middle of a loud, busy area to quiet and isolation. For the last 8 years I've mainly worked from home with 1-2 days in the office each week.  But since moving to our new home, I barely see anyone during the day.

I've looked into co-working spaces and there's 3 where I am and one one I actually have a free week to try. I'll be doing so when the kids are in camp rather than when they're at home.

[ADDED]I live 2.5 hours from my office.  So going in for a half day or a few days of the week presents a whole different set of issues.  Plus, I don't really have working space at the office.

Did you use to live closer to your office, and the move took you 2+ hours further away? So no office socialization and more isolation at home? That's a significant change. I hope the coworking spaces help make a difference.

cloudsail

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #57 on: July 19, 2019, 09:07:42 AM »
I don't have much advice but PTF because I'm worried this exact thing will happen to my DH when we FIRE and/or he turns 40.

Just want to wish you the best on your way to recovery.

kork

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #58 on: July 19, 2019, 09:13:33 AM »
Quote
Seconded. I have high social needs, and periods of working from home have been miiiiiserable. Even though I also hate waking up to an alarm and WFH allowed me to wake up later. My best schedule was working from home in the morning, then walking to the office for the second half of the day. Now in FIRE, I try to get out of the house every day and participate in lots of group events, because otherwise I'll sink into rumination and laziness. Does your job allow you to easily switch to an office? Or a WeWork maybe?

Regarding the working from home,  yes, that was actually one of my big obstacles from my other thread. Went from a smaller home that was in the middle of a loud, busy area to quiet and isolation. For the last 8 years I've mainly worked from home with 1-2 days in the office each week.  But since moving to our new home, I barely see anyone during the day.

I've looked into co-working spaces and there's 3 where I am and one one I actually have a free week to try. I'll be doing so when the kids are in camp rather than when they're at home.

[ADDED]I live 2.5 hours from my office.  So going in for a half day or a few days of the week presents a whole different set of issues.  Plus, I don't really have working space at the office.

Did you use to live closer to your office, and the move took you 2+ hours further away? So no office socialization and more isolation at home? That's a significant change. I hope the coworking spaces help make a difference.

We only moved 10 mins away, but didn't feel isolated because we lived across from a park, 1 minute walk to the water, across from a community centre and on a busy street. I felt like I was sitting in a mall "people watching."  People walking around, coming and going. If I felt isolated, I certainly didn't realize it. It was always busy.

seemsright

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #59 on: July 19, 2019, 09:18:44 AM »
Quote

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I always chalked up dissatisfaction in the curve due to being circumstantial for a 40 years old?


I turned 40 in June. I knew going into my 40's that it would be the best decade yet. I have done the work in my 20's and 30's to get to the point Hubby and I are at. I no longer have to worry about the bank account. My kid can make her own sandwich (She is 9)  Now I want to do more bucket list things. A Ironman, I want to read that book I have been trying to get to. I do not have many people in my life. Most cannot understand my lifestyle as I cannot understand theirs. I do not know what it means to not be able to fill a gas tank, I do not know what it means to not be able to buy the milk at the store. People will come. I know I am a intense person as if I was not I would not have done the things I have accomplished. Not many people spend nearly 15 years getting a Black Belt then two weeks later pay off your house. It takes complete dedication to a goal to make that happen and I have come to terms that there is only 168 hours in a week and I CHOOSE my goals over friendships. Not many people want to come swim laps or open water with me and I am way two busy working on learning how to do that to find the group then to pay the group fee...no thanks I rather swim on my own and invest the group fee. I am open to anyone who wants to come hiking with us, or even a run or another activity.

It sounds like you are a extrovert who has been living a introvert life. It is will be vital that you change that!. Even if it is you find a reason to be around people. Go work in a coffee shop. Something.

kork

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #60 on: July 19, 2019, 11:50:51 AM »
Quote

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I always chalked up dissatisfaction in the curve due to being circumstantial for a 40 years old?


I turned 40 in June. I knew going into my 40's that it would be the best decade yet. I have done the work in my 20's and 30's to get to the point Hubby and I are at. I no longer have to worry about the bank account. My kid can make her own sandwich (She is 9)  Now I want to do more bucket list things. A Ironman, I want to read that book I have been trying to get to. I do not have many people in my life. Most cannot understand my lifestyle as I cannot understand theirs. I do not know what it means to not be able to fill a gas tank, I do not know what it means to not be able to buy the milk at the store. People will come. I know I am a intense person as if I was not I would not have done the things I have accomplished. Not many people spend nearly 15 years getting a Black Belt then two weeks later pay off your house. It takes complete dedication to a goal to make that happen and I have come to terms that there is only 168 hours in a week and I CHOOSE my goals over friendships. Not many people want to come swim laps or open water with me and I am way two busy working on learning how to do that to find the group then to pay the group fee...no thanks I rather swim on my own and invest the group fee. I am open to anyone who wants to come hiking with us, or even a run or another activity.

It sounds like you are a extrovert who has been living a introvert life. It is will be vital that you change that!. Even if it is you find a reason to be around people. Go work in a coffee shop. Something.
I was thinking the same thing...  Until it actually happened. Spent my 20's and 30's doing the work so that I could spend my 40's and beyond doing what I felt like doing.  Planning worked out very well logically, but emotionally... WHAM! What I didn't expect is whatever the hell has happened in my brain.

I go to coffee shops, the library and mall to break up the day. It helps, but it's just people walking around, being busy. It does help though.

koshtra

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #61 on: July 19, 2019, 12:03:01 PM »
There's some interesting research to the effect that trivial social encounters have nearly as much impact on your well-being as close relationships. A couple sentences exchanged with a cashier, a casual conversation on the bus. People always think they need to strike up magnificent intimate friendships, but actually exchanging a quick smile with someone you sorta recognize does a lot by itself. Even we introverts are social critters. We need to feel like we're on home ground, among our own primate band. I push myself to exchange greetings with neighbors & so forth. It's not my first impulse! But it's good for me.

Typhoid Mary

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #62 on: July 19, 2019, 12:50:59 PM »
I’m surprised they prescribed an antidepressant without checking your hormones. You might have GAD or depression but they really need to run a hormone panel. The male version of menopause kicks in around 40. A low dose testosterone cream to replace what your body isn’t making could make all this go away.

BeanCounter

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #63 on: July 19, 2019, 12:52:46 PM »
I'm an introvert. But it doesn't mean I don't like, or don't want to be with people. It just means that I need a lot of alone time to de-stress and rest. It also (at least for me) means that I am not very likely to be the one to plan outings with friends. I enjoy going when invited but I'm not very likely to initiate. Which means that if I don't go to the office I can end up being isolated if I'm not careful. I learned this during my work from home period. I had no idea how much I needed water cooler talk.

Now that I'm approaching FIRE I know that this is something I have to be aware of. I will have to volunteer and consciously set goals of going to lunch with someone once a week etc.

dcheesi

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #64 on: July 19, 2019, 12:58:05 PM »
Quote

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I always chalked up dissatisfaction in the curve due to being circumstantial for a 40 years old?


I turned 40 in June. I knew going into my 40's that it would be the best decade yet. I have done the work in my 20's and 30's to get to the point Hubby and I are at. I no longer have to worry about the bank account. My kid can make her own sandwich (She is 9)  Now I want to do more bucket list things. A Ironman, I want to read that book I have been trying to get to. I do not have many people in my life. Most cannot understand my lifestyle as I cannot understand theirs. I do not know what it means to not be able to fill a gas tank, I do not know what it means to not be able to buy the milk at the store. People will come. I know I am a intense person as if I was not I would not have done the things I have accomplished. Not many people spend nearly 15 years getting a Black Belt then two weeks later pay off your house. It takes complete dedication to a goal to make that happen and I have come to terms that there is only 168 hours in a week and I CHOOSE my goals over friendships. Not many people want to come swim laps or open water with me and I am way two busy working on learning how to do that to find the group then to pay the group fee...no thanks I rather swim on my own and invest the group fee. I am open to anyone who wants to come hiking with us, or even a run or another activity.

It sounds like you are a extrovert who has been living a introvert life. It is will be vital that you change that!. Even if it is you find a reason to be around people. Go work in a coffee shop. Something.
I was thinking the same thing...  Until it actually happened. Spent my 20's and 30's doing the work so that I could spend my 40's and beyond doing what I felt like doing.  Planning worked out very well logically, but emotionally... WHAM! What I didn't expect is whatever the hell has happened in my brain.

I go to coffee shops, the library and mall to break up the day. It helps, but it's just people walking around, being busy. It does help though.
So maybe a combination of "losing" (by attaining) your driving life goals, along with increased isolation?

When you go to the mall, etc., how much are you actually interacting with people, as opposed to just observing and being around them? I know I used to do the idle mall trip and such when I was bored/lonely, and didn't help nearly as much as I thought it would, mostly because I just sat or walked around with minimal real interaction.

Maybe you could find some sort of activity that would get you actually talking to someone? A Meetup or other club or group activity? Someone mentioned volunteering, an that would certainly fit the bill as well.

Ozlady

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2019, 06:05:25 PM »
PTF and get some good tips from others. Nearly two years ago I found myself an orphan at 40, and an only child (which I feel makes things worse since nobody else is going through the loss with me). Since then I've struggled with what I have called an existential crisis. I am planning to FIRE in May and I'm really hoping that not working helps me, but I'm also very scared it won't.

This is something that's been racing through my mind as well.  All the memories we gather and share,  how much more difficult they must become when there's nobody to share them with who was there. I haven't experienced it yet, but I've certainly imagined it.  My heart goes out to you BeanCounter.

Thank you.
Some things I've been thinking about as I read this thread-
-working from home sucks. Did that kick of your depression? People think it's great but it really sucks. It's all the boring work and none of the interacting with peers. I had a work from home gig and returned to the office.

-I think not working in an office and having work buddies is even harder for men. My DH has no desire to FIRE because he knows that much of his current socialization is built around work. What else do guys do together? Golf or some other sport? Get together to watch sports at a bar? I see my spouse struggle with social stuff at this point in life because he doesn't have time for sports other than his kids stuff and he doesn't want to go to bars to drink. If you feel like this is a big part of your struggle maybe some part time work or volunteering would be a big help?

-Maybe you feel like you've hit that point in life where you've achieved your goals and your supposed to glide. But instead of gliding it feels like a steady free fall into old age and eventually death? After working so hard on so many different goals it can be hard to readjust. And we are left feeling like "this is it? This is what I've been working so hard for". Maybe I'm projecting here. I have certainly felt this way many times.

You have a really good list of things you are working on. And that's really good your taking action! I haven't done therapy...yet but I've found some things that have helped me. They are-
-Remembering that feelings are just that, feelings. You may be feeling sad or hopeless but you ARE not sad and hopeless. You can do things that help change your feelings. A walk, a cup of tea, read a book, go on vacation etc. Feelings can change. It is important not to dwell and give them too much power. Often when I am feeling particularly down I read because it takes my mind out of the negative loop. It's hard to worry about the future if you're engrossed in a good book!

-Try to focus on one thing each day that feels good. Simple stuff. I may hate my time in the office working, but I'm looking forward to eating dinner with my kids and spouse. I'm looking forward to reading my book before bed. If you have nothing in the day your are looking forward to, create something! Go get yourself an ice cream! Anything.

-Cleaning out my mothers house and selling it was the saddest thing I have ever done. She cared so much about each and every thing in her house. That's when I really started feeling like "what's the point". You work so hard to build a life and someone just comes in and gets rid of it all as quickly as possible. And I realized that what really matters in life is your relationships with others. I now feel that is my purpose. We don't know how long we'll be here, and we can't control that. But we can use each day to build a relationship with someone else. For me that's mostly my kids or my spouse. But I also try really hard to smile at everyone I meet each day. Say hello, ask them how they are if I can. It's a small thing but maybe it might lift someone else up, I'd like to think so and if does then I've fulfilled my purpose for the day. I try really hard to make some family time at home where we enjoy each other. Good memories of their childhood is the best gift I can give my kids. These things are my purpose. Not my career, not my pile of money or house. Building relationships and making connections with others. I think that's what it is about.

-I know others have said it, but volunteer. It feels good. I'm going on a mission in October. I have plans to volunteer regularly at a couple places in town with my kids after I FIRE next year.

-Travel. It does that body good.

-Finally- just find ways to preoccupy your brain when it wants to go down that hole of anxiety


This post really resonates with me! Thanks Bean Counter...

I share some similarities with what you feel Kork...reached financial independence really early..turned around and what the heck! where is everybody?  A lonely journey ...

2 things helped me:

1) Volunteering: even then... some good days and some bad days ...i am an introvert at heart and need some structure to get me out and about..if not, i am pretty happy with my own company:((

2) Reading : be it books or this forum or others

3) Educating others on FIRE: this one is hit and miss...but having fun anyhow...

All the best Kork and many thanks for your first post...really articulates my own feelings to a certain extent and am glad i am not alone ..


SavinMaven

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #66 on: July 20, 2019, 07:18:51 AM »
It sounds like you're doing what you can to look after your physical and mental health. How's your spiritual health?

"Religion" gets a bad rap in our culture these days, but throughout human history people have wrestled with "why". The search for meaning and purpose is no small potatoes. You don't have to have all the answers to be spiritually healthy, you just have to feel supported as a searcher. There are non-denominational spiritual coaches who can help.

sweet reason

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #67 on: July 20, 2019, 07:24:13 AM »
wow Kork we could be twins minus the 1.4 mil net worth for me. I just turned 40 this year too, my wife/significant other is 47. Been together 17 years. We are fine financially, she has a good job, I have an ok job......We Went through a crisis in the relationship about a year and a half ago where she reached out to another man she met for emotional connection that was lacking from me, it was really hard for both of us as this person was a complete and total predator. It went on for about 2 months. I finally figured it out, I would have sooner but I was in my own world of depression/anxiety etc... and completely unavailable emotionally. Anyway from Jan on 2018 to around May 2018 my life was a rollercoaster. We went to couples therapy, decided to try to work it out, and we did. We battled through everything. It was hard and painful but I felt like for the first time in my life I dealt with something real, instead of running away. I felt like a warrior, I won her love back and we are doing better than ever. Fast forward to today, and I feel very similar to you. Especially the part  about every time I talk to someone ( my whole life I always assume everyone I meet is older than me) they look old or are old. My SO is almost 50, she's  beautiful and I love her but man 50 , that's scary. Remember when your parents turned 50 and you were thinking its almost the end of the road for them?
My parents are in good shape but elderly, we have no kids, I have a sister that's older but she's sick. Im left with this feeling of my parents will be gone soon, prob my sister too, A reasonable chance that I will be that guy with no one that cares about them at the end. Its been really depressing me especially since the big 40. I have some really good true friends but they have their own lives with kids etc so I see them sporadically. As per my anxiety/ depression, I have avoided meds (so far) but have been to psychologists with decent results. The most helpful thing for me has been talking and finding presence in daily things. Its a battle and always will be, but its worth the fight. My advice fwiw is find meditation ( headspace app) to start out, work on BREATHING ( focus on your breath when the anxiety kicks in ) , realize all those feelings about future and past are manifestations of your brain( check out the power of now by Tollee). It doesn't control you and you do not have to give it power over you. When those thoughts of uncertainty come over and ruminate in there just look at them and let them float away, don't give it any power or thought. It is not YOU. This will be a battle and you will fail a lot, but when it gets hard like it is now, find ways to be optimistic. Most of all look at your beautiful wife and children smile and make her/their happiness your own

You are not alone. That was the biggest breakthrough for me and seeing how much strength and relief it was, to share my struggles with others. I hid my anxiety my entire childhood and young adulthood for fear. Being vulnerable with people is true strength, so share if you can because you never know whats happening in someones life and you may be the person that helps them without knowing.

Finally thank you for sharing, this has been therapeutic for me, just to write all this out. Feel free to reach out to me if you ever need someone to talk too. Best of luck, YOU GOT THIS




   

Habilis

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #68 on: July 20, 2019, 08:34:14 AM »
Beautiful reply, sweet reason.

wow Kork we could be twins minus the 1.4 mil net worth for me. I just turned 40 this year too, my wife/significant other is 47. Been together 17 years. We are fine financially, she has a good job, I have an ok job......We Went through a crisis in the relationship about a year and a half ago where she reached out to another man she met for emotional connection that was lacking from me, it was really hard for both of us as this person was a complete and total predator. It went on for about 2 months. I finally figured it out, I would have sooner but I was in my own world of depression/anxiety etc... and completely unavailable emotionally. Anyway from Jan on 2018 to around May 2018 my life was a rollercoaster. We went to couples therapy, decided to try to work it out, and we did. We battled through everything. It was hard and painful but I felt like for the first time in my life I dealt with something real, instead of running away. I felt like a warrior, I won her love back and we are doing better than ever. Fast forward to today, and I feel very similar to you. Especially the part  about every time I talk to someone ( my whole life I always assume everyone I meet is older than me) they look old or are old. My SO is almost 50, she's  beautiful and I love her but man 50 , that's scary. Remember when your parents turned 50 and you were thinking its almost the end of the road for them?
My parents are in good shape but elderly, we have no kids, I have a sister that's older but she's sick. Im left with this feeling of my parents will be gone soon, prob my sister too, A reasonable chance that I will be that guy with no one that cares about them at the end. Its been really depressing me especially since the big 40. I have some really good true friends but they have their own lives with kids etc so I see them sporadically. As per my anxiety/ depression, I have avoided meds (so far) but have been to psychologists with decent results. The most helpful thing for me has been talking and finding presence in daily things. Its a battle and always will be, but its worth the fight. My advice fwiw is find meditation ( headspace app) to start out, work on BREATHING ( focus on your breath when the anxiety kicks in ) , realize all those feelings about future and past are manifestations of your brain( check out the power of now by Tollee). It doesn't control you and you do not have to give it power over you. When those thoughts of uncertainty come over and ruminate in there just look at them and let them float away, don't give it any power or thought. It is not YOU. This will be a battle and you will fail a lot, but when it gets hard like it is now, find ways to be optimistic. Most of all look at your beautiful wife and children smile and make her/their happiness your own

You are not alone. That was the biggest breakthrough for me and seeing how much strength and relief it was, to share my struggles with others. I hid my anxiety my entire childhood and young adulthood for fear. Being vulnerable with people is true strength, so share if you can because you never know whats happening in someones life and you may be the person that helps them without knowing.

Finally thank you for sharing, this has been therapeutic for me, just to write all this out. Feel free to reach out to me if you ever need someone to talk too. Best of luck, YOU GOT THIS




 

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #69 on: July 20, 2019, 08:52:39 AM »
How is your sleep?  I find my moods are much harder to cope with when my sleep has gone to pot.

Horrible sleep.  I wake up every night at 2-3am with extreme anxiety and panic. This started with the Zoloft and is now a pattern. Last night, I woke up crying after a dream involving my grandmother and my mom and red/green and white Willy Wonka nerds. Can't recall much of it, but it was most unpleasant.

I'm now sleeping in 1-2 hour chunks. No REM sleep for me. I hope this pattern breaks soon and this is where the diaphragmatic breathing is helping.

I almost could have written your post word for word.  I started having a major depressive episode and general anxiety disorder since September of last year... Which led to severe insomnia. I didn't recognize the depression at the time so was only treating the insomnia which of course did nothing to help.  Finally the anxiety got so bad it literally felt like a lion was about to jump on me and eat me 24/7, my nervous system was completely burned out.  I was lucky to get more than an hour or two of sleep a night. I had sleep dread and the minute I laid down to sleep I was almkst having panic attacks.  It made no sense, I have a good marriage, net worth in the millions... No kids, I have no reason to be depressed!

Finally I gave in and tried antidepressants. Holy shit, it was life changing. Within 3 pills my anxiety was completely gone. I've had an easy 8hrs sleep per night since.  I actually look forward to living during the days VS just struggling through.  Combined with CBT and mindfulness training my life has done a complete u turn. I recommend the book called Feeling Good by David (forgot his last name).  I got it on Amazon, it's a self help oriented depression book.  I've learned a lot about how tricky the mind is.

It took me three tries to find the right antidepressant. Effexor made me literally want to hang myself, Cymbalta was awesome but gave me bad tinnitus, finally I tried Wellbutrin and while not as good as Cymbalta the side effects (mostly tinnitus) aren't very bad.   I'm a bit nervous the tinnitus will be permanent but to me it's worth it.  Anyway, good luck, I know it sucks. 

CindyBS

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #70 on: July 20, 2019, 04:06:21 PM »
Are you sure it’s FIRE causing these feelings?

There’s a proven huge dip in happiness at midlife. Things get better around 50.

See: https://www.amazon.com/Happiness-Curve-Life-Better-After/dp/1250078806/


Kork,

I cannot recommend this book enough.  I read it while I was in a real bad spot - I was just a few years older than you.  Our book club read it and the other people in the book club were all 40-52ish and all agreed.  This book changed my life and having the other women in the book club say the same things were happening to them was so affirming.

The premise of the book is that our 40's are a time of a lot of change and stress, much like adolescence.  Except as a culture we accept that adolescence may be rocky, but we tend to make fun of people having a mid life crisis.  The book shows so much research to back this up and so much research that shows people do get happier again after this stage of life.  It also has a lot of concrete recommendations about what to DO about the feelings too.

Good Luck.

bthewalls

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #71 on: July 20, 2019, 05:00:18 PM »
Why do people reach for medication when life gets challenging?.....of course severe clinical depression is different.

Anxiety and challenges (suffering) direct us to new things in life. Yes it’s hard to sit with.

We aren’t designed to be happy all the time. Expecting to be happy all or most of the time is a huge source of unhappiness!

Don’t freak out, talk to GOOD friends....and sit with it!

B


kork

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #72 on: July 21, 2019, 08:57:45 AM »
Some great stories and suggestions above. I've got the book "The Happiness Curve: Why Life Gets Better After 50" in my amazon cart now. Will order shortly. I've also downloaded the headspace app to give it a shot.

Why do people reach for medication when life gets challenging?.....of course severe clinical depression is different.

Anxiety and challenges (suffering) direct us to new things in life. Yes it’s hard to sit with.

We aren’t designed to be happy all the time. Expecting to be happy all or most of the time is a huge source of unhappiness!

Don’t freak out, talk to GOOD friends....and sit with it!

B

Yes, in life there are setbacks, for sure.  I've encountered them myself (job changes, moving, hospital runs with the kids, etc) as have most people. But the anxiety and depression, unless you've experienced it is not just feeling sad or being uneasy about something.  It's relentless.

I say this as someone who has two prescriptions, unused, in my nightstand.  I'm fighting HARD to stay away from the medication. I don't want to use them and I'm exhausting my efforts with all other avenues first.  It's all about mindset.

Here's an example. When the stock market crashes and people start jumping out of windows to end their life, To most the thought is "wow, why not just try again or move to the forest and live in a cabin?"

From any reasonable, sane person we can look in from the outside and say "why would someone ever do that???"

But from the person who jumped, they've experienced such a "close up" life changing situation and their outlook is modified so heavily that any pre-existing mental health condition could very well have created such pain and anguish in their head that they truly believe things CANNOT get better and that's the only way out. Such a change in life creates such emotional turmoil that you're literally unable to deal with the pain you're feeling.

It's not the event...  It's the sudden shift in perception. At least, that's how I can understand it.

That's what's hit me. I've had a sudden change of perception. A 180 degree paradigm shift and one that's not for the best (currently). The lows have been so low, the acknowledgement of my wife passing away one day (it used to be so far away I could shelve the thought) but nowadays, with the last 15 years having passed so fast, I fear the next 15 will be even faster and then wham! Early 60's.

This shift has not been gradual. It's literally "woke up the next day and everyone looked 20 years older" and I realized my wife was almost 50. It's like I've been asleep the last 20 years. I've observed, and I have memories, but man, oh, man...  Did it ever pass by quickly...  And add the age difference, it's unsettling.

With kids, the days are long, but the years seem to fly by!

And so I'm doing everything I can think of with medication being the last resort.  But it's not sadness or feeling uneasy...  It's despair (not sadness) and relentless anxiety and rumination that the medication helps with.

The way I can describe it is that you're thrashing around in the ocean. Face getting dunked every couple seconds, not able to catch your breath. And you're getting exhausted... You're not trying to figure out which direction to go...  you're simply trying to keep your head above water and not drown.

And all of a sudden, you get thrown a life preserver. That's the medication.  It's not going to swim for you,  it's not going to plot the course...  But it'll prevent you from using all your energy simply trying to keep your head above water (if the life preserver isn't filled with concrete and takes 4-6 weeks to start to help you float while you also need to deal with the extra weight... AKA, my experience with Zoloft.).

big_owl

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #73 on: July 21, 2019, 10:47:39 AM »
Why do people reach for medication when life gets challenging?.....of course severe clinical depression is different.

Anxiety and challenges (suffering) direct us to new things in life. Yes it’s hard to sit with.

We aren’t designed to be happy all the time. Expecting to be happy all or most of the time is a huge source of unhappiness!

Don’t freak out, talk to GOOD friends....and sit with it!

B

Sorry to hear about your broken leg bruh... Just jog it off and everything will be A-OK!

AnxietyFly

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #74 on: July 21, 2019, 11:35:45 AM »
A couple points I would like to mention. If you haven't already done so, I recommend keeping a journal. This will allow you to see progress over time.  This will allow you to see documented progress and make adjustments. 

Zoloft is a hard drug for the brain to adapt to so it could take a month to adjust to the drug. The side effects for me was lack of sleep for at least three weeks. The drug is only good for a few months. The drug is not going to fix your problem. Its just going to help bandaid the problem while going through rehab and fixing the root cause. There are a lot of groups on facebook that deal with Zoloft. There are some pro-zoloft and some anti-zoloft. I recommend joining these groups.  After you healed your body, you will need to wean off the drug. I used a scale and two month period to cycle off.  Week over week, cutting down the drug using a razor knife.   

Lastly, you really cannot predict or plan how the future will play out. If you are being triggered, you might want to cut down on the amount of exposure you are putting yourself through. For example, if you are looking a finance stuff for planning daily, move to a monthly frequency. You might want to find a new hobby. 

big_owl

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #75 on: July 21, 2019, 11:50:49 AM »
Some great stories and suggestions above. I've got the book "The Happiness Curve: Why Life Gets Better After 50" in my amazon cart now. Will order shortly. I've also downloaded the headspace app to give it a shot.

Why do people reach for medication when life gets challenging?.....of course severe clinical depression is different.

Anxiety and challenges (suffering) direct us to new things in life. Yes it’s hard to sit with.

We aren’t designed to be happy all the time. Expecting to be happy all or most of the time is a huge source of unhappiness!

Don’t freak out, talk to GOOD friends....and sit with it!

B

Yes, in life there are setbacks, for sure.  I've encountered them myself (job changes, moving, hospital runs with the kids, etc) as have most people. But the anxiety and depression, unless you've experienced it is not just feeling sad or being uneasy about something.  It's relentless.

I say this as someone who has two prescriptions, unused, in my nightstand.  I'm fighting HARD to stay away from the medication. I don't want to use them and I'm exhausting my efforts with all other avenues first.  It's all about mindset.

Here's an example. When the stock market crashes and people start jumping out of windows to end their life, To most the thought is "wow, why not just try again or move to the forest and live in a cabin?"

From any reasonable, sane person we can look in from the outside and say "why would someone ever do that???"

But from the person who jumped, they've experienced such a "close up" life changing situation and their outlook is modified so heavily that any pre-existing mental health condition could very well have created such pain and anguish in their head that they truly believe things CANNOT get better and that's the only way out. Such a change in life creates such emotional turmoil that you're literally unable to deal with the pain you're feeling.

It's not the event...  It's the sudden shift in perception. At least, that's how I can understand it.

That's what's hit me. I've had a sudden change of perception. A 180 degree paradigm shift and one that's not for the best (currently). The lows have been so low, the acknowledgement of my wife passing away one day (it used to be so far away I could shelve the thought) but nowadays, with the last 15 years having passed so fast, I fear the next 15 will be even faster and then wham! Early 60's.

This shift has not been gradual. It's literally "woke up the next day and everyone looked 20 years older" and I realized my wife was almost 50. It's like I've been asleep the last 20 years. I've observed, and I have memories, but man, oh, man...  Did it ever pass by quickly...  And add the age difference, it's unsettling.

With kids, the days are long, but the years seem to fly by!

And so I'm doing everything I can think of with medication being the last resort.  But it's not sadness or feeling uneasy...  It's despair (not sadness) and relentless anxiety and rumination that the medication helps with.

The way I can describe it is that you're thrashing around in the ocean. Face getting dunked every couple seconds, not able to catch your breath. And you're getting exhausted... You're not trying to figure out which direction to go...  you're simply trying to keep your head above water and not drown.

And all of a sudden, you get thrown a life preserver. That's the medication.  It's not going to swim for you,  it's not going to plot the course...  But it'll prevent you from using all your energy simply trying to keep your head above water (if the life preserver isn't filled with concrete and takes 4-6 weeks to start to help you float while you also need to deal with the extra weight... AKA, my experience with Zoloft.).

Mine started last year at 38yo, it's weird how common the 40yo depression seems to be.  I can't really pinpoint the exact cause of mine but I'm sure it has to do with aging.  In my case I have a younger wife (slightly) who seems to be getting more desirable with age so that obviously isn't the problem.  I think mine is a few things that have joined forces to overcome me:

1. I'm coming to grips with my aging and mortality.  For the past 3yrs I've been dealing with chronic pain from hip and back problems that unfortunately aren't going to go away.  Physical activities, appearance and superiority have always been a big part in defining me.  Starting with the pain and dealing with that reality over the past few years has basically confirmed "The Top Is In" on that part of my life.  And though I can still do bodybuilding and running and biking, clearly my prime is in the rear view and it's only going to get worse from here on out.  This sounds very similar to what you've described though manifested in a slightly different way.  My therapist basically laughed at me when I brought this up and said compared to other 39yo I was light years ahead, which I acknowledge is true but there's that perfectionist part of me that has trouble dealing with the fact that I've had "peak physical me".  Sounds like Disqualifying the Positive, yes?

2. I'm sort of dealing with the same thing in my career.  I'm a senior engineer who has no desire to go into management and given our financial situation I really don't have any need to go further.  So as an engineer I'm basically capped out.  When you're young you always look to the future and just know things will get bigger and better.  Then all of a sudden you're there you realize it can't get much bigger.  I just came off a 5yr multi-billion dollar megaproject and there's really nothing close to that I could be a part of in the future.  I still have challenging projects but they're an order of magnitude smaller.  And now having FU money I find the motivation is lacking. 

Last year when the insomnia started I thought it was just a temporary blip, and in the beginning it was.  Of course you get anxious when you haven't gotten more than a couple hours sleep in 2-3 nights so I didn't recognize the root cause and just assumed it was lack of sleep.  Initially the insomnia would come and go, then over time it was more often than not.  I finally hit rock bottem when in three days I didn't get more than 2 hours of sleep.  I remember texting my wife laughing and telling her at least it couldn't get much worse because I'd die if I just started getting zero sleep all the time.  I actually did some research and found out that if you don't sleep for 3 days you generally start hallucinating. 

Finally the anxiety started to show itself.  I had that feeling you have when you're going to give an important presentation in front of hundreds of people, but it was 24/7.  That's when I went to a doctor and pretty quickly realized it was depression and anxiety all along and not simple insomnia that I had been dealing with.  I had tried the no-meds route for 9mo and it wasn't working.  Things that would normally make me a little nervous (a basic work project for example) had been magnified 100x.  The smallest challenge felt like it was life or death.  Spilling a glass of water on the tile kitchen floor was akin to spilling 5gal of motor oil on my carpet. 


My view on antidpressants is basically this - if you had a life-threatening infection like C-diff you'd take antibiotics, right?  And nobody would judge you or tell you to "sit on it" and man up and let it play out.  Chronic depression is a serious disease and feeling as bad as I did for as long as I did it was pretty clear to me that I wasn't going to live a particularly long and happy life.  So yeah, I'll seek out all the levers I have access to in order to get better.  I don't expect to take a few pills and have it magically go away.  It's like you said, basically a life preserver as you're drowning in the ocean.  Combine that with CBT and science says the chances for success are pretty good.

I'm not telling you what to do but as I said earlier the first AD I tried (effexor) had me ready to hang myself.  I didn't know it was that possible for a human to feel that bad.  And I kept telling myself that it was just the medication but it didn't matter, it was so horrible.  Then with the cymbalta I had the same thing but it only lasted 1.5 days and then all of a sudden it was heaven and all the anxiety was gone and I felt like a new man but my ear rang all the time.  Finally with the wellbutrin I didn't have the increase in anxiety at all, just mild tinnitus that I can live with no problem as long as it doesn't get worse. 

According my my headspace app Ive now done over 1200min of mediation and listening to courses.  They've certainly opened up my mind to the possibilities of mediation but unfortunately for me they weren't significant source of improvement.  The whole experience has certainly humbled me and has me majorly rethinking FIRE.  I'm having a hard time seeing how that will be healthy for me.  I might change careers to something I really love but I don't know yet.  It's actually been kinda liberating in that we have a ton of money invested due to our old FIRE goals and have a very high household income, but all of a sudden if I drop the pressure of having to FIRE the potential to REALLY enjoy life becomes pretty straightforward.  Anyway, we'll see how it pans out.  First thing first is to get healthy again.



gaja

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #76 on: July 21, 2019, 12:42:22 PM »
How is your sleep?  I find my moods are much harder to cope with when my sleep has gone to pot.

Horrible sleep.  I wake up every night at 2-3am with extreme anxiety and panic. This started with the Zoloft and is now a pattern. Last night, I woke up crying after a dream involving my grandmother and my mom and red/green and white Willy Wonka nerds. Can't recall much of it, but it was most unpleasant.

I'm now sleeping in 1-2 hour chunks. No REM sleep for me. I hope this pattern breaks soon and this is where the diaphragmatic breathing is helping.

If I were you, I would get a good psychiatrist to look closer into the bipolar you mentioned. If that is at the core, you need to find ways to stabilize, and lack of sleep is a sure way to spiral. DH has had very good use of Seroquel. But of course; diagnosis first!

Btw: Bad reactions to traditional antidepressants is one of the diagnostic indicators of bipolar.

BicycleB

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #77 on: July 21, 2019, 12:57:50 PM »
Sorry you're going through this, @kork. Glad you're posting though!

Upthread, you mentioned a volunteering organization that suggested you "come in to see what it's about." Did you?

Like others, I think that getting activity with social interaction into more of your schedule will help. Especially, I think it will lead to a future that is emotionally sustaining for you, just based on the many comments you've written where being around people helps you. As a frequent volunteer, here are a few comments/ideas in case this path is helpful.

1. There are TONS of groups out there. Pleasure groups like hiking. Volunteer organizations of various kinds. Explore lots of them. Don't assume they should be any particular way. Assume that multiple attempts are needed before any particular thing happens. Treat the experience as a learning journey. Make this an apprenticeship in new forms of relating, not a test where any one group should act in the way you expect. Just learn, do, get out there. Like a weightlifter, get your repetitions in.

2. You mentioned that you don't have to interact a lot, just need to have people around. Golden opportunity. Lots of groups need people like that. Explore with an eye toward finding such roles. Be the guy who sets up the water cooler and the signs at the event. After a while, you'll find lots of these activities.

3. Consider looking for a couple of activities that are a little MORE challenging than you prefer. Ones that involve people, but are somewhat demanding, that require your attention fully when you're there. I can't think of a good example, but think of setting up the targets at a fast-paced gun range where volunteers give poor kids a chance to shoot. Bullets are flying, you'd better pay attention! The need for focus might help get you out of your head, so to speak.

Anyway, hoping for the best.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 01:00:10 PM by BicycleB »

I-Ranger

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #78 on: July 21, 2019, 02:16:06 PM »
Why do people reach for medication when life gets challenging?.....of course severe clinical depression is different.

Anxiety and challenges (suffering) direct us to new things in life. Yes it’s hard to sit with.

We aren’t designed to be happy all the time. Expecting to be happy all or most of the time is a huge source of unhappiness!

Don’t freak out, talk to GOOD friends....and sit with it!

B

Sorry to hear about your broken leg bruh... Just jog it off and everything will be A-OK!

Is putting a cast on a broken bone no better than placebo, like antidepressants?

If pulling your garbage can to the curb is hard work, should you lift weights so it's less of a struggle? Or just use steroids because lifting all those weights is unpleasant?

If you have heartburn, should you stop pounding beer and pizza before bed, or just take a Prilosec?

Unless someone is severely depressed, non-pharmaceutical alternatives should be tried before being exposed to the side effects of psychotropic drugs.

big_owl

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #79 on: July 21, 2019, 06:48:53 PM »
Why do people reach for medication when life gets challenging?.....of course severe clinical depression is different.

Anxiety and challenges (suffering) direct us to new things in life. Yes it’s hard to sit with.

We aren’t designed to be happy all the time. Expecting to be happy all or most of the time is a huge source of unhappiness!

Don’t freak out, talk to GOOD friends....and sit with it!

B

Sorry to hear about your broken leg bruh... Just jog it off and everything will be A-OK!

Is putting a cast on a broken bone no better than placebo, like antidepressants?

If pulling your garbage can to the curb is hard work, should you lift weights so it's less of a struggle? Or just use steroids because lifting all those weights is unpleasant?

If you have heartburn, should you stop pounding beer and pizza before bed, or just take a Prilosec?

Unless someone is severely depressed, non-pharmaceutical alternatives should be tried before being exposed to the side effects of psychotropic drugs.

?   

I wouldn't use steroids, but if I couldn't carry the trash out I'd probably use a hand cart to help me haul it out until I was strong enough to carry it on my own...

I do find it a bit ironic that both you and the previous poster hedged your posts against medication with it being ok to use when severely depressed (aka, ADs are useful when it REALLY counts). 

I hadn't slept more than 6hrs in months.  Three days into my medication I was getting 8hrs and the anxiety was completely gone.  Life changing. 

I-Ranger

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #80 on: July 21, 2019, 08:08:17 PM »
Why do people reach for medication when life gets challenging?.....of course severe clinical depression is different.

Anxiety and challenges (suffering) direct us to new things in life. Yes it’s hard to sit with.

We aren’t designed to be happy all the time. Expecting to be happy all or most of the time is a huge source of unhappiness!

Don’t freak out, talk to GOOD friends....and sit with it!

B

Sorry to hear about your broken leg bruh... Just jog it off and everything will be A-OK!

Is putting a cast on a broken bone no better than placebo, like antidepressants?

If pulling your garbage can to the curb is hard work, should you lift weights so it's less of a struggle? Or just use steroids because lifting all those weights is unpleasant?

If you have heartburn, should you stop pounding beer and pizza before bed, or just take a Prilosec?

Unless someone is severely depressed, non-pharmaceutical alternatives should be tried before being exposed to the side effects of psychotropic drugs.

?   

I wouldn't use steroids, but if I couldn't carry the trash out I'd probably use a hand cart to help me haul it out until I was strong enough to carry it on my own...

I do find it a bit ironic that both you and the previous poster hedged your posts against medication with it being ok to use when severely depressed (aka, ADs are useful when it REALLY counts). 

I hadn't slept more than 6hrs in months.  Three days into my medication I was getting 8hrs and the anxiety was completely gone.  Life changing.

It's not a hedge, its science. ADs are effective in severely depressed people, and are essentially a placebo for mild to moderate depression.

Your medication worked in three days? That's fantastic, but ADs take weeks before they are effective, so it seems that yours is likely a classic case of a placebo response.

I have my own anecdotal evidence: I was severely depressed, anxious, and had horrible bouts of insomnia. I tried some different ADs, they didn't work for me, I just got the unpleasant side effects. Talk therapy helped tremendously initially, but it was meditation and yoga that have been the cure. Not merely a treatment for symptoms, like ADs are, an actual cure. I no longer suffer from anxiety or depression, and I sleep like a baby. It is truly miraculous, but it isn't easy. I show up every day to sit for 15 minutes and meditate, no matter what uncomfortable feelings are churning inside me, and have done so for 13 years.

Is meditation a placebo? Maybe, but it's free, and the only side effects I've experienced are increased calm, happiness, open mindedness, creativity, confidence, and ability to concentrate.

Medication, talk therapy, and a mindfulness practice can work together beautifully to stabilize someone going through a bad episode of anxiety/depression. But, to really get better, permanently, eventually the medication will have to be dropped, and very likely the talk therapy as well. There is no substitute for choosing to experience your scary emotions directly and consistently, and through looking the monster in the eye, you come to realize it's only a phantom, and gradually it loses its power over you.

People greatly overrate what medications can do for them, and greatly underrate the severity of side effects and also the power of their mind and emotions have on their physical well being, and the degree to which they can harness them to their benefit.

Cassie

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #81 on: July 21, 2019, 10:17:05 PM »
If you were happy while working maybe you are not ready to leave the work force.

bthewalls

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #82 on: July 22, 2019, 01:27:53 AM »
Nice to have the option to work or FIRE!

....'hope for the best, plan for the worst'.......Noah Vosen black ops director born ultimatum  😂

BeanCounter

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #83 on: July 22, 2019, 07:09:52 AM »
Why do people reach for medication when life gets challenging?.....of course severe clinical depression is different.

Anxiety and challenges (suffering) direct us to new things in life. Yes it’s hard to sit with.

We aren’t designed to be happy all the time. Expecting to be happy all or most of the time is a huge source of unhappiness!

Don’t freak out, talk to GOOD friends....and sit with it!

B

Sorry to hear about your broken leg bruh... Just jog it off and everything will be A-OK!

Is putting a cast on a broken bone no better than placebo, like antidepressants?

If pulling your garbage can to the curb is hard work, should you lift weights so it's less of a struggle? Or just use steroids because lifting all those weights is unpleasant?

If you have heartburn, should you stop pounding beer and pizza before bed, or just take a Prilosec?

Unless someone is severely depressed, non-pharmaceutical alternatives should be tried before being exposed to the side effects of psychotropic drugs.

?   

I wouldn't use steroids, but if I couldn't carry the trash out I'd probably use a hand cart to help me haul it out until I was strong enough to carry it on my own...

I do find it a bit ironic that both you and the previous poster hedged your posts against medication with it being ok to use when severely depressed (aka, ADs are useful when it REALLY counts). 

I hadn't slept more than 6hrs in months.  Three days into my medication I was getting 8hrs and the anxiety was completely gone.  Life changing.

It's not a hedge, its science. ADs are effective in severely depressed people, and are essentially a placebo for mild to moderate depression.

Your medication worked in three days? That's fantastic, but ADs take weeks before they are effective, so it seems that yours is likely a classic case of a placebo response.

I have my own anecdotal evidence: I was severely depressed, anxious, and had horrible bouts of insomnia. I tried some different ADs, they didn't work for me, I just got the unpleasant side effects. Talk therapy helped tremendously initially, but it was meditation and yoga that have been the cure. Not merely a treatment for symptoms, like ADs are, an actual cure. I no longer suffer from anxiety or depression, and I sleep like a baby. It is truly miraculous, but it isn't easy. I show up every day to sit for 15 minutes and meditate, no matter what uncomfortable feelings are churning inside me, and have done so for 13 years.

Is meditation a placebo? Maybe, but it's free, and the only side effects I've experienced are increased calm, happiness, open mindedness, creativity, confidence, and ability to concentrate.

Medication, talk therapy, and a mindfulness practice can work together beautifully to stabilize someone going through a bad episode of anxiety/depression. But, to really get better, permanently, eventually the medication will have to be dropped, and very likely the talk therapy as well. There is no substitute for choosing to experience your scary emotions directly and consistently, and through looking the monster in the eye, you come to realize it's only a phantom, and gradually it loses its power over you.

People greatly overrate what medications can do for them, and greatly underrate the severity of side effects and also the power of their mind and emotions have on their physical well being, and the degree to which they can harness them to their benefit.

@I-Ranger , thank you for posting this. I really think that both meditation and mindfulness practice would be really helpful for me. Do you have recommendations on tools to start?

fuzzy math

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #84 on: July 22, 2019, 07:24:54 AM »
Just wanted to say what a fabulous thread this is. Lots of support, lots of helpful advice, lots of commiserating. Reading it has me reevaluating some things that I've let slide in my life because tackling them means facing them head on. Thanks everyone.

Eowyn_MI

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #85 on: July 22, 2019, 09:25:58 AM »
From an analytical perspective, it seems that your lifestyle could be improved if you had more interactions with people.  Have you considered finding a new job that requires you to work with other people as a team?  (From a practical perspective there might be very good reasons why you would not want to do this so if the thought doesn't help then throw it out.)

The reason that I am suggesting a different job is due to my own experiences with work.  My work is not always fun.  It is sometimes challenging, stressful, physically dangerous, annoying, tedious, boring and occasionally soul sucking.  However, it has two redeeming factors:
1) Good paycheck.
2) At the end of the day, I can point to the completed work and say "We did that.  It was hard but with everyone working together we got the project done.  Good job team!" 

This is a type of satisfaction/joy that is hard to find outside of working as a team.  I think that it is a basic human need to feel that our skills are needed and appreciated.  I know that physically working with a group of people forms social bonds.  My teammates are not the type of people that I would hang out with outside of work.  However, due to the time spent working together over the last several years, they feel as close as extended family members.  I am genuinely happy to see them when I go to work.

I-Ranger

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #86 on: July 22, 2019, 10:47:32 AM »

It's not a hedge, its science. ADs are effective in severely depressed people, and are essentially a placebo for mild to moderate depression.

Your medication worked in three days? That's fantastic, but ADs take weeks before they are effective, so it seems that yours is likely a classic case of a placebo response.

I have my own anecdotal evidence: I was severely depressed, anxious, and had horrible bouts of insomnia. I tried some different ADs, they didn't work for me, I just got the unpleasant side effects. Talk therapy helped tremendously initially, but it was meditation and yoga that have been the cure. Not merely a treatment for symptoms, like ADs are, an actual cure. I no longer suffer from anxiety or depression, and I sleep like a baby. It is truly miraculous, but it isn't easy. I show up every day to sit for 15 minutes and meditate, no matter what uncomfortable feelings are churning inside me, and have done so for 13 years.

Is meditation a placebo? Maybe, but it's free, and the only side effects I've experienced are increased calm, happiness, open mindedness, creativity, confidence, and ability to concentrate.

Medication, talk therapy, and a mindfulness practice can work together beautifully to stabilize someone going through a bad episode of anxiety/depression. But, to really get better, permanently, eventually the medication will have to be dropped, and very likely the talk therapy as well. There is no substitute for choosing to experience your scary emotions directly and consistently, and through looking the monster in the eye, you come to realize it's only a phantom, and gradually it loses its power over you.

People greatly overrate what medications can do for them, and greatly underrate the severity of side effects and also the power of their mind and emotions have on their physical well being, and the degree to which they can harness them to their benefit.

@I-Ranger , thank you for posting this. I really think that both meditation and mindfulness practice would be really helpful for me. Do you have recommendations on tools to start?

I actually started with Meditation for Dummies book, lol. Since then I have read about other types of meditation and mindfulness practices, and honestly, I think there are several that can be helpful. Qi gong, tai chi, yoga, centering prayer (if you have an affinity for religion), and many different types of meditation. The important thing is that you are practicing holding your attention on one thing, and then noticing when it has strayed, and then bringing it gently back to that one thing. This strengthens your ability to direct your attention where you want it, simultaneously weakening the ability of your negative thinking to take you over completely.

I feel meditation on the breath is the simplest, most direct way to bolster mindfulness, but I would say try a few different practices and see what resonates with you the most. Whichever one you ultimately choose, do your best to have patience and trust in the process. Relief from emotional suffering never comes as fast as you want it to, but believe me, it will come.

Here's my half-baked metaphor for how it works:
Imagine you (and everyone else) are required by law to carry a huge bag of sand with you everywhere you go while you are awake. The bag is sealed and you are not allowed to open it in anyway. It totally sucks trying to carry and/or drag this thing around all the time, wearing you out and making everything you do more difficult. You obviously hate the bag, and even when you get to put the bag down at night, you find yourself thinking about how much you hate it and how much harder everything in your life is and will always be because of it. Soon, the stress of thinking about the bag is almost as painful as actually having to carry it.

Then you meet a wise old woman who is joyful and happy, and whose bag seems almost empty. You ask for her secret and she tells you that there is a design flaw in the bag, and that if you hold it just right, a few grains of sand will fall out, but it's so few that you won't be able to see them falling out. You doubt it will work, because if it did it would be on TV and everyone would be doing it. Eventually you're so desperate for relief that you'll try anything, and you start to do what the wise woman suggested, even though the special way you have to hold the bag is uncomfortable and painful, which means you can only do it for a short period each day. Day-to-day, you don't notice any difference, and you get frustrated and think it is useless, but again, you have nothing to lose so you might as well trust what the wise woman told you.

But one day you notice the bag feels a little bit lighter, and going about your life is a bit easier. You realize it's working, which motivates you to keep up the uncomfortable daily practice. Then the real miracle happens. A day comes where you stop worrying, hating, and thinking about the bag while you're carrying it, and especially when you've put it down. You still have to carry the bag every day, which isn't pleasant, but you notice you are happier the more you just accept its existence, and you start putting this freed up mental energy into creating the life you want. This acceptance is made easier by the knowledge that the bag is indeed getting lighter, albeit slowly.

Then a day comes where you look back on how heavy your bag used to be, and it's obvious it is significantly lighter now. It still affects you and makes things harder than if you didn't have to carry one at all, to be sure, but going about your life is far easier than it used to be and you really stop thinking about it. You are grateful every day that your bag is lighter, and you occasionally give yourself a lighthearted facepunch for not taking the wise woman's advice sooner.

You ultimately realize your bag may never be completely empty, but that's okay, because it has ceased to be a source of suffering, and dammit, you're a pretty happy person now. And so you just keep doing the daily uncomfortable practice, because, why wouldn't you?


The one thing I would strongly recommend is reading The Power of Now by Eckhart Tolle. He does a masterful job explaining how the mind/ego works, and gives concrete practices to help you transcend emotional dysfunction and suffering. I read it at least once a year, and probably always will. It's effect on my life has been profoundly positive. I'm sure you can get it through the library and there a probably a million cheap used copies for sale online. A New Earth is also an excellent book of his.

You can do it, BeanCounter. You deserve to be free from suffering, as we all do.

Glenstache

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #87 on: July 22, 2019, 11:09:28 AM »
I was diagnosed with major depression (which comes along with a bonus dose of anxiety) at just after 30 years old. I resisted medication for a decade. I am now just over two years in and have had a few adjustments to the meds over time. I have experienced what all of the peer-reviewed research I read concluded: medication plus therapy work better than either in isolation. Meds are not a panacea, but they have allowed an equilibrium that I have not known before in life. That has also provided a much better platform to leverage the tools and processing from a lot of hard work in therapy. At present I have relatively minor side effects, and for the most part I don't notice the effects of the medication. I still have up and down days, but the swings are much more proportionate to how they should be weighted in every day life. I've had both good and bad therapists. It is worth shopping around for a good fit and be willing to move on if you don't have trust in talking to them. I was exceptionally fortunate to find a provider who is both a therapist and a psychiatrist, which allows for really tight integration of therapy progress and medication. This is an unusual combination, and I feel really fortunate to have found it. 

Big changes in life, both good and bad, can act as triggers for depression and anxiety. Mid life crisis, is a perfectly reasonable and expected change in many people's lives. Mental health is just so absolutely fundamental to all else in life that it is worth putting effort into.

SachaFiscal

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #88 on: July 22, 2019, 11:46:51 AM »
I really feel for you and am sorry you are going through all this but hopefully something good will come out of it and you will gain a better understanding of yourself and maybe gain a perspective that will allow you to help others in a similar situation.

I had somewhat of a mid life crisis when I turned 40 as well.  I used to wake up ever night at 3am in a panic and contemplate my mortality. Death seemed to be closing in and I felt helpless to stop it.  This went on for a couple years until I quit my job.  My brain tends to spin and spin on subjects throwing me into a panic.  I have some anxiety issues.  What's really helped me is mindfulness.  I started going once a week to a mindfulness group which helped me start my own practice. I only do a sitting meditation for 10 minutes in the morning but it really does help me tap into mindfulness moments throughout the rest of the day.  I took a free online meditation class which helped me a lot.  They offer it once a year with a person to guide you (over the phone).  Or you can just go through the class materials on your own.  It's just an audio lecture once a week and then it gives you some practices to do that week.  Also some questions you can use to reflect on your experience. It is 6 weeks: https://www.insightmeditationcenter.org/books-articles/meditation-instruction/

I would recommend this in addition to any professional help you get, not as a substitute.

Now it does sound like what you are going through is way more intense than what I went through.  Reading through your posts, though, I see a person who is very bright, introspective, self-aware, loves his family dearly, and perseveres. It sounds like you have a lot to live for and you have people counting on you. Even this thread you've started has helped so many people by bringing this subject to light and offering up solutions.  I'm sure a lot of people just reading this post and not commenting are getting a lot out of it. The world needs you in it.

It sounds like you are doing a lot of the right stuff: exercising regularly, eating healthy, trying to find ways to get social interaction, investigating into mindfulness techniques, and seeking professional psychiatric and medical help. I really have faith that you will get through this and come out of this funk successfully.  I wish you all the best.



theskyisblue

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #89 on: July 22, 2019, 06:49:58 PM »
Wow -- I am so sorry.  It's crazy b/c I joined these forums because we have too much debt, I feel ashamed of our financial situation and I want to be in a place where people are talking honestly and openly about money so that I can get a handle on things and improve.  Almost every day, I think:  If we only had enough money, I would be sooo happy!  I would not have any of this anxiety!  I would be planning a lot of fun things to do!  But clearly, while not having enough money definitely causes unhappiness (for most people), having more than enough does not create happiness.

I think you need a project, like a REAL project.  When they write your obituary (when YOU ARE 90, my friend, not now), what will it say?  If it says you were an amazing father and husband, that's enough, but maybe you want it to say something else.  Maybe you need a big project to motivate and focus you.  Everyone needs different things for happiness.

There are different kinds of meditation, different ways of being in the "flow" of feeling happy about being alive.  Some people want to sit and think about nothing but others needs walking meditation, they have to be moving.  Other people need to throw something at their monkey mind to keep it busy so that they can not-focus on bigger things.  For me, after being able to go to bed at 1 or 2 am for most of my adult life, I have found that doing it for a few days in a row sends me into a spiral of negativity while getting 7 or 8 hours sleep per night, I wake up feeling like I have a handle on things and I'm just happy to be here.  And even with this experiential knowledge, I am having a hard time breaking my 12AM-2AM internet habit.

Remember that your kid needs you.  Your wife is adult and can manage on her own for a while but kids always need us.  Put your own oxygen mask on first but remember that she needs you and nothing you may tell yourself about how she would be better off without blah blahblahblahblah blah blah is even the slightest bit remotely true.

Please also just agree not to worry about being 80 or 90 until you're 70.  Just make it to 75 or so and see how things are going.

SugarMountain

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #90 on: July 25, 2019, 10:54:42 AM »
I think it's pretty common to fight some of these issues, I know I have as I round the bend towards FIRE.  To a degree, we can define ourselves through our jobs and even knowing that this may be changing due to FIRE can be very unsettling.  It also doesn't help when you look back and see the ever growing number of friends and acquaintances who have passed away.

Dr. Doom had an excellent blog post on his "mid-life FI-sis" and how he got through it with the help of a therapist:
https://livingafi.com/2015/01/20/midlife-fi-sis/

Spicolli

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #91 on: July 25, 2019, 02:47:41 PM »
So many great responses...I too have had some semi-dark thoughts lately so thanks for all the great ideas.

I heard a great quote today attributed to Shakespeare or Picasso (but apparently neither of them actually said it):

"The purpose of life is to find your gift. The meaning of life is to give it away".

bthewalls

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #92 on: July 25, 2019, 04:20:48 PM »
Class...love it

B

kork

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #93 on: July 26, 2019, 07:49:59 AM »
I think it's pretty common to fight some of these issues, I know I have as I round the bend towards FIRE.  To a degree, we can define ourselves through our jobs and even knowing that this may be changing due to FIRE can be very unsettling.  It also doesn't help when you look back and see the ever growing number of friends and acquaintances who have passed away.

Dr. Doom had an excellent blog post on his "mid-life FI-sis" and how he got through it with the help of a therapist:
https://livingafi.com/2015/01/20/midlife-fi-sis/

Wow, this hits home. Right from the blog post.

"Then something strange happened.  In early 2012, I got a job that gave me a lot more free time.  It sounds great, but here’s the weird part:  After initially feeling much better, about a year after I started, I developed a mild case of depression."

[ADDED] - But after reading through 8 pages,  doesn't feel too familiar. It seems like Dr.Doom had a small number of challenges... I suspect that my therapy may last longer than 5 sessions, but who knows.  Maybe there's a lynchpin?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2019, 02:08:56 PM by kork »

SugarMountain

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #94 on: July 29, 2019, 09:43:49 AM »

Wow, this hits home. Right from the blog post.

"Then something strange happened.  In early 2012, I got a job that gave me a lot more free time.  It sounds great, but here’s the weird part:  After initially feeling much better, about a year after I started, I developed a mild case of depression."

[ADDED] - But after reading through 8 pages,  doesn't feel too familiar. It seems like Dr.Doom had a small number of challenges... I suspect that my therapy may last longer than 5 sessions, but who knows.  Maybe there's a lynchpin?

I think he had more than 5, he doesn't really even start working on the specific problems until he says appointments "5-6". But yes, his specific issues may well be different. I think the point I was trying to make is more that you're not alone in this, lots of people have issues when confronting middle age, retirement, and other massive life changes. Lord knows I do. Hang in there.

Brother Esau

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #95 on: July 29, 2019, 09:56:05 AM »
There is a good book on aging called Aging Well.  I read it when I was around 29, LOL.  Aging is not so bad.

It sure beats the alternative!

kork

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #96 on: July 29, 2019, 07:11:28 PM »

Wow, this hits home. Right from the blog post.

"Then something strange happened.  In early 2012, I got a job that gave me a lot more free time.  It sounds great, but here’s the weird part:  After initially feeling much better, about a year after I started, I developed a mild case of depression."

[ADDED] - But after reading through 8 pages,  doesn't feel too familiar. It seems like Dr.Doom had a small number of challenges... I suspect that my therapy may last longer than 5 sessions, but who knows.  Maybe there's a lynchpin?

I think he had more than 5, he doesn't really even start working on the specific problems until he says appointments "5-6". But yes, his specific issues may well be different. I think the point I was trying to make is more that you're not alone in this, lots of people have issues when confronting middle age, retirement, and other massive life changes. Lord knows I do. Hang in there.

Yes, I do see that.

I have my first therapy next Wednesday and had an initial conversation with the therapist today.  I'm hopeful.

I was listening to the radio today and the announcer said something to the effect that Eminem turns 50 in only a few short years.

<blink><blink> No, that can't be true... He grew up in a trailer park with his mom... That was only a few years ago...

So yeah, still feeling like I literally blinked and all of a sudden, old, not young. It's almost like my brain is capable of time travel but can only seem to go forward and feel nostalgic about the past.

This is truly messing with me. I was at the dentist today...  Looked at the dental hygienist that 6 months ago I would consider being around my moms age... only... I realized that she was my age.....

W.....T.....F....???

Was watching American Beauty last night...  I'm the same age as Lester Burnham (played by Kevin Spacey) in the movie...  He makes a comment about how much the price of weed has gone up since 1973 (movie came out in 1999).  25 years...   The difference of 1973 to 1999 is the same as 1993 to 2019...  One timeline seems like ancient history...  the other seems just like yesterday.

Lester Burnham looks and acts like a grown up to me.  I much more relate to Paul Rudd in "This is 40." Perhaps it's a generational thing?

Mind...blown...   I didn't see this coming. Like a rabbit punch out of nowhere.

Kill me when I start wanting to decorate the home with "old person" paintings of a horse looking at a sunset over a barn.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 07:27:32 PM by kork »

savedandsaving

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #97 on: July 29, 2019, 10:29:29 PM »
I'm so sorry to hear what you're going through, my friend.

Individual counselling is tricky because I'm not sure what type of counsellor (male, female, older, my age?) would be best and I'm afraid to fail.

From more recent posts it seems as though you are actively pursuing this, but I'd just like to take this chance to say: it's not possible to fail counselling. You can't fail. Your counselor, theoretically, cannot fail. Counselling is a journey, and participating actively is succeeding. Keep at it--I truly believe that literally everyone can benefit from counselling and should engage in it at some point in their life.

I know others have said it, but consider your local church. I'm personally a Christian, and I see the religion as--rather than the "opiate of the masses"--a hard pill to swallow at times (bear with me here). It's something that will enlarge your pool of thought topics to include dark subjects such as strangers' spiritual wellbeing, the state of human souls, the spiritual state of the world, the forces of darkness possibly at play against us, and the modern persecuted church (thousands imprisoned and killed every year just for practicing their peaceful faith, and that's Christianity alone--think of other world religions.)

On the other and more positive hand...it completely solves the "why." No wonder that, historically, Christianity flourished in times of harshest persecution. Once a person's metaphysical "why" is solved...once they realize that the God of the universe cares about them...they seemingly strengthen in the face of many physical trials.

Even if you don't buy into the faith, solid local churches are great place of community, often with social and outreach events that stretch throughout the week. Fantastic way to meet hopefully lovely people and serve your community at the same time.

I wish you the very best, and if you're comfortable with it, I will be genuinely praying for you.

jaysee

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #98 on: July 30, 2019, 04:50:13 AM »
There seems to be a cost to everything in life. If you have a perfect home, huge salary, excellent health, then something else has to give - maybe meaning, spirituality, an inner life.

In a funny way this post makes me feel appreciative of what I already have. Especially some of the people and memories and ability to appreciate some great works of art.

I wouldn't turn down $1M but somehow I feel less unfortunate when I remember all the other good things I have that aren't monetary or material in nature.

Gray Matter

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Re: FIRE has triggered intense anxiety and depression.
« Reply #99 on: July 30, 2019, 05:53:40 AM »
Quote
I do find it a bit ironic that both you and the previous poster hedged your posts against medication with it being ok to use when severely depressed (aka, ADs are useful when it REALLY counts). 

I hadn't slept more than 6hrs in months.  Three days into my medication I was getting 8hrs and the anxiety was completely gone.  Life changing.

Quote
It's not a hedge, its science. ADs are effective in severely depressed people, and are essentially a placebo for mild to moderate depression.

Your medication worked in three days? That's fantastic, but ADs take weeks before they are effective, so it seems that yours is likely a classic case of a placebo response.

I've worked a lot in this space as a consultant and you both could be right. There's a well known placebo-response group at Harvard that has analyzed a lot of antidepressant data and they suggest up to 85% of the effect is explained by a placebo response. And they do generally take 2-4 weeks to fully alter the brain's chemistry and show improvement in depression. However, the drug that big_owl mentions, Wellbutrin, was reformulated to avoid the insomnia seen in the short-release version. The XL version of the drug has been shown to have the opposite effect, so if he is taking that it could be helping immediately with his sleep, even though it may take a couple of weeks before any depression symptom effect occurs. Generally speaking though, these drugs are not meant to be taken over the long-term. They haven't been studied over long periods, side effects can accumulate, and people build tolerance to their effect relatively quickly (meaning in 6 months you may notice it doesn't work as well and the typical response is to up your dose - this is wrong!). They are best used to get through short periods and to reset whatever poor cycle your brain has gotten into. Cognitive-behavorial therapy is the only long-term solution with any data to support it. It's amazing how many people are prescribed ADs in the US (usually by their GP) who never see a therapist or start any kind of cognitive-behavorial therapy. You are altering your brain's chemistry, don't take that lightly, but that also doesn't mean don't ever use them.

This is an excellent post, thanks StPeteStache for the nuanced information. 

One thing I'd like to add is that Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is not the only long-term solution with data to back it.  It is the most studied modality, because it is short-term and manualized, which lends itself well to the type of short-term, control-group research we tend to do.  Plus, insurance companies like it, because of its short duration.  But a number of meta-analyses have suggested that no one type of therapy is any more effective in the long-term than any other (called the "Dodo bird" effect), and once researcher bias and study design flaws are taken into account, the effect size advantages of CBT tend to evaporate.  (The same is true of other modalities--researcher bias does seem to, not surprisingly, impact findings).

So...my point is, find the modality that works for you, that you find most tolerable or interesting or useful.  More importantly, find a therapist that is a good fit for you, so you engage in the therapy and keep coming back long enough for it to work.  (Although therapy has been shown to work even before the first appointment, as soon as it is scheduled--got to love placebo effect!)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 01:54:54 PM by Gray Matter »