Author Topic: FIRE for city people  (Read 11786 times)

Hula Hoop

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FIRE for city people
« on: October 09, 2017, 08:21:11 AM »
I'm a dyed in the wool city person.  I grew up in the center of a huge city but now live in the center of a big city.  I don't mind going to the country on vacation but I'm always happy to get back to the city.  My husband is from a smallish village (around 1000 people) and whenever we go there to visit his family I think 'what do people do all day'.  The village has one playground for my kids, a couple of restaurants, a pub, a few clothing stores, a supermarket, a post office and that's pretty much it.  His family seem to basically just watch a lot of TV and they drive absolutely everywhere.  Luckily for me, my husband had already lived in the big city (where we met) for 20 years and is now also a city person like me. 

For FIRE I've noticed that a lot of people here either currently live in low cost rural areas or plan to move to them once they FIRE.  I assume this is because of the LCOL and/or the possibility of cashing in on a higher real estate price in the city by moving to the country.  This is something I'd never consider because I'd be miserable.  Any other city people here who'd never leave the city?  Is it pushing back your FIRE date?

ixtap

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2017, 09:16:52 AM »
What gets me is that people so rarely discuss the mid options, like Midwest cities. Toledo, OH has an amazing art museum, ethnic restaurants from all over the world, and day trips to other cities with similar claims. I have never seen anyone, in any context list it as a destination city.

I bet the cities have a higher ratio of people who just sit around and watch TV all day. My parents are on the boring side, but they volunteer several times a week, go to live music on a regular basis and a shopping trip becomes an adventure if you have to go over the mountain in odd weather. Can you get over the mountain in half an hour from your city base?

CowboyAndIndian

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2017, 09:20:46 AM »
I grew up in a large city and I think at heart I am a city guy too. Buying into the American dream, I bought a place in a suburb of New York

For FIRE, I'm moving to mid size city (downtown) where I have cultural events, museums, restaurants, bars, sports, groceries and pharmacies etc. all within walking distance. I hope to not use the car very much which is impossible in a suburb.

So my suggestions is to move from the big city to a smaller one.

undercover

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2017, 09:25:23 AM »
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His family seem to basically just watch a lot of TV and they drive absolutely everywhere.

I agree with you that most people living in rural areas are doing it wrong. Like you, that's where they grew up, so they take it for granted. They live just like anyone else is living but the drives are just longer and the jobs are shittier. Of course there's still plenty of people in cities watching TV all day. Just take a walk around your neighborhood at 8-9PM and look at all the people crowded around their TVs. So yeah, most people in rural settings are there simply because that's where their family is and that's where "home" is. The nature is a byproduct. All of this really has less to do with the area and more to do with the person.

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...I think 'what do people do all day'. The village has one playground for my kids, a couple of restaurants, a pub, a few clothing stores, a supermarket, a post office and that's pretty much it.

And...? What more do you need? Who in the entire world spends "all day" at any of those places?

People in rural areas don't care about "parks". If you choose where you live, there's plenty of public land/forest. You're missing the point on what makes rural attractive. You don't just simply take the life you're living now and transfer it to a place with less stuff. It's the lack of things that make it appealing: the slower pace, the friendlier people (as a result of a slower pace - I'm not saying there aren't friendly people everywhere, just overall), the quiet nights, the bright night sky.

For someone looking to FIRE, LCOL/rural is the perfect combination. Not many people here really care that much about a huge selection of restaurants and stores - especially considering you can have 99% (not including food) of what you need delivered. If you have one big supermarket with a huge variety near you wherever you are within a 30 minute drive, do you really need anything else?

Overall, I think for most, other than the people you already know, there's not much reason to stay in a big city if you're at the point where you can FIRE to a cheaper area. Most people move to cities for economic opportunity. The cost of living in a certain area is often completely uncorrelated to how great of a place it actually is. There's really nothing an expensive area has that the cheaper area doesn't, it just has more of the same simply because there's more people. And if you live within a 5 mile radius from your house already, does it really matter what's going on 20 miles down the road?

But I do think that if you're someone who chooses to make the move/leap, it needs to be primarily because you envision a different/better lifestyle and not just because you want to FIRE ASAP.

And of course we could reverse this and speak to the person who grew up and stayed rural and "couldn't imagine living in a crowded dirty mess of a city". The bottom line is it doesn't matter where you're at, it's how you live your life as a person. But for Mustachians ready to FIRE, moving to a LCOL/rural area makes a ton of sense when you consider the mental/physical benefits of being closer to nature and being in a slower environment overall not polluted by tons of "stuff".

Move to big city for economic opportunity. Make tons of money and save it by not spending it on all the shit around you enticing you everyday (something most people clearly can't do). Take your money from the place where people are still working because they're constantly buying shit to a more idyllic place where, again, they're still working since their jobs are likely low-paying and they're still buying tons of shit. Again, price of entry into an area is often completely uncorrelated to how great of a place it is to live (LIVE, not make money). Seems like cheating to me.

The exception to all of this is if you have lofty goals to change the world and start meaningful businesses. For that, you need to be around people (Elon Musk). But if you're not that person, as most people aren't, you're probably not living the best possible life.

Laura33

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2017, 09:28:59 AM »
I suspect many folks here plan to move to a LCOL area when they FIRE both because of the financial issues and because they really enjoy outdoor hobbies -- hiking, camping, backpacking, etc.  If your idea of a perfect afternoon is a 4-hr hike or working in the garden, then rural life can be pretty awesome. 

Personally, I would not want to be rural -- I do like having the quiet, but I also like being able to get somewhere else easily without relying on the car.  I can happily putter around the house and my town for days on end, and then I get antsy and just want to GO somewhere or DO something -- it's having that variety of options that makes me happy.  The thing I love about the city is that I can ditch the car entirely and be able to walk or take the subway wherever I want to go, which makes me feel that I will be able to maintain my independence longer.  Last time we visited NYC, we were sitting having lunch on the Lower East Side, and outside the window was this like 90+-yr-old couple, her with the push cart, holding his arm to help steady him, walking up the street (slowly, but at a faster pace than I'd have expected given the age and hunched-over-ness).  We finished, got in the car, started driving, and about 4 blocks later caught up with them and passed them, still trudging along.  Then we got caught in traffic, and we played tag for several more blocks.  And I thought, now, THAT's who I want to be when I am that age, just doggedly out doing my errands and shopping and such. 

Alas, I have always lived in a MCOL are and so don't have the equity in an existing home that would allow me to upgrade to someplace like Manhattan.  And DH likes woodworking too much, so we will need to have at least a 2-car garage someplace for him to be able to do that.  So we may well end up right where we are now:  in a first-ring suburb, with enough shops we can walk to to cover almost everything we need, but only 6-7 miles from a nice downtown area.  Just wish we had a functioning subway system.  But maybe those self-driving cars will fix that problem by the time I'm old enough to worry about it.

Tl;dr:  "idyllic" is in the eye of the beholder.

lentil

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2017, 10:06:12 AM »
I've lived in truly tiny towns, and found it stifling (and LOL, definitely did not experience "friendlier people"); I've lived in large cities and had a difficult time finding the space I need. But if I had to choose between just those two options, I'd take the big city any day!

Luckily for me, there are many big towns/small cities that fit my needs even better. Big enough to have plenty of culture, restaurants, diversity, community participation, etc., but also small enough that I can get out hiking on a regular basis. I do wish my current city had better public transit, and some other things (and do participate in community organizing efforts to help move things in those directions), but overall it works for me. But I have friends who grew up in giant cities, who find our small city almost as stifling as I found my tiny town...I think it makes sense to live in an area that fits you, if possible, rather than accepting someone else's definition of "ideal."

Hula Hoop

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2017, 10:11:10 AM »
Several of you have denigrated city life and romanticized rural life. I didn't mean to say that country life is bad for everyone but it's also not right for everyone. I've been surprised to see that so many people here want to move to rural areas after FIRE  although I guess I understand as costs of living are lower.  My main experience of country life is my inlaws and they seem to enjoy their lives but they're very different from me and that is fine.  They're not outdoorsy people at all- in fact they rarely venture outdoors except to go to their cars. My husband's village is cute but in an industrialized rural area not known for it's beauty.  Living in the city my husband and I are probably more outdoorsy than they are as we walk everywhere and prioritize exercise and fitness.   On the other hand, I'm sure that people who live in beautiful rural areas in the mountains, for example, would be more likely to do outdoor sports and walking/hiking and take advantage of living in a less densely populated place.

Ixtap - I totally agree with you.  Places like Cleveland have all the advantages of city life without the high price tag.  Perfect.

I think some of you misunderstand the appeal of city life for me.  We eat out maybe twice a month - usually at really cheap places - so restaurants are not the appeal. In fact, my inlaws probably eat out more than us but usually cheap takeout.  We rarely shop apart from second hand and the occasional sale item.  But city life offers a lot of cultural things to do for free or cheap that just don't exist in rural areas. For example, my best friend was just telling me about a series of classical piano concerts at our city's town hall for Euro 1.50 per person that she has been taking her kids to.  This weekend we plan to take our kids there followed by a big walk around our city's historic center.  Maybe we'll get an ice cream for the kids while we're out.  Last weekend we went to a historic site here where they have sound and light show (perfect for our kids) for free (we got a special deal).  Once a month all the museums in the city are free so we take our kids and it's great.  We have live music here - prekids we used to go to live music venues quite a lot and we'd love to get back into that once the kids are a bit older.  My husband is a huge music nerd but he didn't go to his first live music show until he joined the military at 18 and moved to a bigger town as they just don't have stuff like that in small towns.  Lots of artists live here in our city and there are galleries nearby.  Lots of street art and installations.  And there are free/cheap movies outdoors during the summer.  All of this stuff makes me really happy - just how I'm built.  I also love the fact that my kids' school is 50% immigrant kids and we hear all kinds of languages in our neighborhood and can buy all kinds of ethnic foods.  Obviously, not all rural areas are ethnically homogeneous but my husband's village is and my inlaws can be kind of scared of outsiders/foreigners.

Anyway - to each their own of course but I've been surprised that so few MMM people seem to want to continue to live in a city after FIRE.

ETA lentil - I think the friendlier people in the country thing depends on the local culture and also who the person is who moves there.  My husband always says that people back in his village are distrustful of outsiders and not particularly friendly.  But I'm an outsider and people have accepted me but that has a lot to do with being part of husband's family.  As a foreigner living in Europe I find big city people much more friendly in general- they're much more likely to just accept me as I am probably as I'm not one of the first foreigners they've met and they may have travelled themselves or even lived abroad.  It's kind of normal to be a foreigner here in the big city whereas in the countryside I'm kind of a curiosity.

« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 10:20:25 AM by Hula Hoop »

mozar

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2017, 10:28:00 AM »
I would prefer to live in the country, but I don't plan to move there. I live in the suburbs, close enough to the city that I can get on the metro and get downtown in about 30 minutes. I am extremely liberal and also don't want to live somewhere where people are constantly trying to take my rights away.
I'm a musician and I have an arrangement where I can get drum lessons and piano lessons for free. I'm not willing to move away from that.

I wish I could live in the wilderness but what would I eat? I watch a lot of videos of people living off grid etc, and they all seem to bring in food from somewhere.

I suppose it has pushed back FIRE, but I wouldn't choose to live in a MCOL or LCOL anyway. I make do here. I live near a small lake, I could rent a car and there are several places to go hiking within an hour. I'm thinking about starting a nature group on meetup.com

Hula Hoop

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2017, 10:53:57 AM »
Mozar - what about a more liberal rural area?  I'm assuming you're in the US?  There are rural areas in the US where you'd fit in - for example the Pacific Northwest, certain parts of New England, Minnesota, certain parts of upstate NY.

Luck12

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2017, 10:57:51 AM »
I would prefer to live in the country, but I don't plan to move there. I live in the suburbs, close enough to the city that I can get on the metro and get downtown in about 30 minutes. I am extremely liberal and also don't want to live somewhere where people are constantly trying to take my rights away.

+1.  I don't want to be around people who are "nice" to my face but would vote to take affordable health care away for millions of Americans or who think it's ok to fire someone because they're gay.  Plus I'm an asshole, er I mean introvert so I don't care if anyone says hello to me or makes small talk since I hate that fake shit anyway.    So I will always live in a city in a small condo.  Also it's easier to find people with similar interests in an urban area vs rural just due to the sheer number of people. 

Hula Hoop

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2017, 11:01:43 AM »
Yeah I get where you're coming from.  I'm politically liberal too and have kind of found my tribe here in the big city as well.  But I do know of some very liberal rural enclaves back in the US where people aren't generally voting to remove affordable healthcare from millions etc.  This is one of the reasons that my husband could not go back though - his social and political views are very different from those of his rural family.

undercover

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2017, 11:11:30 AM »
Several of you have denigrated city life and romanticized rural life.

I only responded in such detail because you clearly romanticized city life and made negative assumptions about what rural life would be like. I actually don't think it matters all that much where anyone lives as long as they're in a safe and comfortable place and are suited to support themselves in said place.

Again, it depends on the person. Plenty of people are living in big cities working at McDonalds. Plenty of people are living in breathtaking areas and sitting inside all day. And I don't meant to insinuate that there are clear "city" and "country" people. What I mean is that you're either someone who thinks you have to have something specific to be happy or you're someone who finds ways to be happy and productive wherever you are.

I'm just saying it's pretty obvious from an economical point of view as to why people get out of HCOL areas in order to FIRE sooner.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 11:36:53 AM by undercover »

Cranky

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2017, 11:20:46 AM »
I've lived in a number of cities, and liked them fine, and now I live in an old Rust Belt area, and I like it fine, too. I've concluded that my daily life would be pretty much the same no matter where I lived.

I'm a homebody, and I've got plenty to do at home. (I'm not much of a tv watcher, though.)

One thing that I very much prefer about where I live now is that it does NOT take forever to get anyplace. When I've spent time, in Manhattan, for instance, it has seemed like getting even short distances took a long time, because there was so, so much traffic. A bus or a cab - stuck in traffic. Subway - you've got to hike over there and then wait around and then hike to where you're going. It drove me nuts.

We now live in a much smaller and cheaper city than Cleveland - like, Cleveland is the Big City, an hour away, and we grumble about how long it takes to get there, and then we remember that when we lived in Miami, it took an hour to get from North Miami to South Miami. Ugh.

Anyway, I think if you like concerts, you can find those pretty much wherever you live. This is not the Cultural Center of the World, but we go to hear plenty of classical music and there's an art museum and really, much more to go out and do than I really want to go out and do. (We went out two evenings last week, and that was about as busy as I want to be!)

I'd consider moving closer to some family members, but not because there would be "more to do".

Also, if I lived in Manhattan, I'd end up killing someone. Toooo many people, by far.

Zikoris

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2017, 12:04:01 PM »
I've lived in both - grew up in very small rural villages, moved to a big city when I hit adulthood. I would say I have a slight preference for smaller places due to some health issues that are exacerbated by city living, but overall I like both. I really just need a comfortable home, basic amenities (good internet, grocery store, medical care), and walkability.

Our FIRE numbers are based on current big city costs, as we want to keep our options open.

debbie does duncan

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2017, 12:56:18 PM »
This guy traded a big city for a small city. He made a choice. What is more important to you?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/saint-john-new-resident-no-regret-move-1.4330503


Syonyk

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2017, 01:17:32 PM »
My husband is from a smallish village (around 1000 people) and whenever we go there to visit his family I think 'what do people do all day'.

It depends on the area, but I'd suggest that "in a small village" is not a particularly rural setting, in the context of what people are going for.  "A few acres" or "A few dozen acres" is closer to what a lot of people consider rural, and there's plenty to do if you've got land and goals.

I live where a lot of people would call "the middle of nowhere," though I argue that I simply have a really good view of that from here.  It's rural farm country, though not particularly remote (15 miles/20 minutes into a decent sized down).

I'm still working (from home) part time, so I do that, I work on the property, I mess around with small electronics (see blog link for the type of stuff I do), etc.  It's also a great spot for creative work - some of the best artists I know are from my wife's family and grew up in "the middle of nowhere."  Like, a few hundred acres a half dozen miles outside of a "town" that consisted (at the time) of a few buildings and a small general store.

But you find things to do - it's not ready-packaged for you, of course, but there's a lot you can do, and a lot less interference with it.  My wife grew up out here, and we lived in the suburbia of a big coastal city for a few years.  We were miserable.  We described city life as "sitting in traffic to stand in line to spend money," in the common case, and discovered that the vast majority of people in urban/suburban areas have a burning passion for telling you what you can't do and what you must do.  Our backyard was "overgrown" (the grass was mowed, but the ground cover/trees/bushes covering a third of it were certainly lush), a neighbor hacked back and basically killed some very nice bushes that were over her fence (she'd asked if she could trim them - I assumed, "at the fence line," not "as far over the fence as she could reach with long limb cutters"), I've got a complaint filed with the city for the apple tree having dropped apples on the ground, had arguments with people about how often one of my vehicles moved (I dared to bike to work because it sucked less than driving, and resolved the vehicle movement issues by parking worse so I was in a different position regularly), etc.  Cost of living was stupid, and we simply didn't care about most of the stuff that cities offered, and they didn't offer stuff we cared about.  Like being left alone.

I'm radically busier on a few acres than I was in the city - I rarely watch TV anymore and no longer play computer games, because I'm a whole lot happier working on projects.  Currently, I'm adding shelving to a new shed we got, getting some plywood prepped to replace the floor in an old pickup bed trailer (as a trash hauler), and getting my old tractor into shape for this winter (it's the main source of driveway clearing, and will be used for garden beds/moving the chicken tractors/discing cheatgrass/etc as well).

People in rural areas don't care about "parks". If you choose where you live, there's plenty of public land/forest. You're missing the point on what makes rural attractive. You don't just simply take the life you're living now and transfer it to a place with less stuff. It's the lack of things that make it appealing: the slower pace, the friendlier people (as a result of a slower pace - I'm not saying there aren't friendly people everywhere, just overall), the quiet nights, the bright night sky.

Yup.  I can see the milky way from my front porch.  I'll go outside on a moonless night just to watch the stars.  The sky is full of them in a way that is foreign to people who live in a city.  I can pretty much read by the moon when it's full.

And I've got a somewhat distinctive vehicle that gets a lot of questions (sidecar motorcycle), so I stop and talk to people constantly.  I'll run across neighbors at the D&B parking lot (country farm supply store), at gas stations, etc.

People from built up areas tend to freak out about the distances involved ("the grocery store is 15 miles away???"), but miss that you can actually get places at a reasonable pace.  The 15 miles is about 18 minutes of driving, unless there's a tractor (add a minute or two to get around it if there's oncoming traffic).

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Not many people here really care that much about a huge selection of restaurants and stores - especially considering you can have 99% (not including food) of what you need delivered. If you have one big supermarket with a huge variety near you wherever you are within a 30 minute drive, do you really need anything else?

So true.  It's also worth mentioning that once you get used to home grown produce and other products, restaurants just aren't very exciting anymore.  My wife is excellent in the kitchen, and between our garden (small this year, but grew a ton of basil and more peppers than we know what to do with, some amazing strawberries, and a watermelon), relatives gardens (which grow... oh, just about everything, a lot of which is canned for later use), and some of the stuff we buy from various neighbors, most restaurant food is just... meh.  At best.  We plan to expand that.  The taste of stuff fresh from the garden is so, so much better, and we know what went into it.  Strawberries off our plant are, for lack of a better term, explosively strawberry-y.  It's like eating concentrated strawberry flavor compared to the store bought ones.  Same for the peppers, the basil, and stuff from relatives gardens.  It's also picked when ripe, not when still stone hard for transport.

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But I do think that if you're someone who chooses to make the move/leap, it needs to be primarily because you envision a different/better lifestyle and not just because you want to FIRE ASAP.

Absolutely.  Nothing is more annoying than someone who moves to a rural area and then whines that it's not like the city they left.  Except, perhaps, people who move to a cheap house by an airport and then try to get the airport closed.  There's a special ring in Hell for them.

=========

That all said, rural areas suck.  Definitely don't move there.  Just a bunch of meth addicts watching TV all day.  Terrible, terrible places.  Stay in the cities.  Get all your friends to move to the cities.  Pay tons and tons of money to live on top of each other, because... uh, whatever reason sounds good to do something silly like that.  Rural areas wouldn't be any good if everyone moved there. :)

Hula Hoop

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2017, 01:33:52 PM »
Syonyk - it sounds like you weren't living in a city but rather the suburbs if you had to drive (you complain about traffic) to get around and you had a war with your next door neighbor over your backyard.  I live in a small apartment right in the center of a city - no car and no need for one. We walk most places. To me, that is city living.  I would hate living in the suburbs too but I know others who love it.

Anyway - I'm in Europe so country living is very different from what you describe.  Only a very wealthy person or an aristocrat could afford several acres/several hundred acres of land here.  My inlaws are working class so they live in relatively small spaces without much land. 

Syonyk

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2017, 02:23:18 PM »
Syonyk - it sounds like you weren't living in a city but rather the suburbs if you had to drive (you complain about traffic) to get around and you had a war with your next door neighbor over your backyard.  I live in a small apartment right in the center of a city - no car and no need for one. We walk most places. To me, that is city living.  I would hate living in the suburbs too but I know others who love it.

That's fair.  However, the same problems apply.  Not being able to do anything to where I live, empirically, drives me up the wall.  Wait, sorry, fine for having climbed the wall without a permit...

You do touch on a common response to my observation about cities, though: "Oh, your problem is that you're sitting in traffic to stand in line to spend money!  You should be taking public transit to stand in line to spend money!"  Ignoring that our issues were also with the standing in line and spending money thing...

There's tons of public land out where we live, so camping and such is generally free, except for the fuel to get there.  Same for hiking.  We'll take old Jeeps (1950s) into the mountains on a nice weekend, etc.

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Anyway - I'm in Europe so country living is very different from what you describe.  Only a very wealthy person or an aristocrat could afford several acres/several hundred acres of land here.  My inlaws are working class so they live in relatively small spaces without much land.

Valid enough point.  There's a lot of rural land in the US, so it tends to be fairly cheap.  Our 2 acres was a gift from my inlaws, who had about 17 (still have 15, but they don't mind if we mine basalt and such from it).  Also, grandparents up the hill is great!

Hula Hoop

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2017, 02:39:29 PM »
Syonyk - good for you - you sound very happy and have found the perfect life for you.  I feel the same about city living.  Tried the suburbs and hated it.  Not for me.  This kind of reminds me of a song my dad used to sing to me as a kid - something about a country mouse and a city mouse.

I feel like us city dwelling FIRE people have different issues from the rural dwellers.  For one thing, our costs are a lot higher and we can't really cash in on real estate in order to RE.  I'd like to hear from others in the same boat.

acroy

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2017, 02:40:53 PM »
DW and I plan to mix it up when FIRED'd
- couple years in a city, maybe NY, Philly, Boston.
- a year somewhere pretty extreme, like Nome Alaska.
- year or 2 on the road, if I can talk her into it.

We're comfortable with 'small' living down to an apartment in a city. Condos and townhouses are nice. Suburbs are very pleasant but people do start to isolate themselves. 'Big' living, acres in the country, is nice for a few days, then gets lonesome. And it's tough to get toilet paper except by car.

we hope to end up in a condo or small house on the Big Island.

We vote against socialism every chance we get and don't mind living with people who disagree with us, as long as they're civil :)

A Definite Beta Guy

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2017, 02:49:06 PM »
What do the urban FIRE folk do that makes urban living appealing? Free festivals in the city? I've never been an urban person, so not really sure...

Zikoris

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #21 on: October 09, 2017, 05:05:26 PM »
What do the urban FIRE folk do that makes urban living appealing? Free festivals in the city? I've never been an urban person, so not really sure...

The main things we like about living in the city are the amenities, and the ease of living car-free. I like to take ballet classes, for example, and go to concerts and shows from time to time. It's also fun being able to get exotic ingredients from the local ethnic markets that usually don't exist in smaller places. I imagine the easy access to medical care/specialists might be a benefit for older people as well.

We'll likely move somewhere rural for health reasons eventually, but there are definitely perks that we would miss.

Off the Wheel

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2017, 05:07:09 PM »
This debate could be summed up by "you do you." Yes, there are obvious economic benefits to LCOL areas. There are also obvious cultural drawbacks.

Where you'd be happiest depends on what you like to do, and what you prioritize in your daily life.

I grew up in a big-but-not-biggest city (Vancouver). It felt too small, too provincial. In my late 20s I moved to New York, and while I loved the endless amount of stuff to do I quickly tired of the amount of work it took to do the stuff. The cost, the frenzied pace, the traffic, the noise, the crowds, the chaos. I hated it, and moved back to the PNW after a year.

Now in my 30s, I dream of moving to what I romantically call a cabin in the woods. What does that look like? An acre of land, with quick access to the outdoors. I love to hike, and backpack, and canoe, and hunt, and fish, and all that good stuff - the more time I can spend away from the trappings of city life the better. I love the quiet, and the sounds of the wild.

Maybe I wouldn't love it as much if we ever actually took the plunge, but the things I loved about the city in my youth - an abundance of restaurants, live music, nightclubs, theatre - don't appeal anymore. I just need to find the right rural community - with a likeminded community - within an hour's drive of a big enough city for work and occasional diversions.

Paul der Krake

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2017, 10:15:33 PM »
I've lived in college towns, cities pushing 8 digits, and everything in between. Never fully rural though.

My FIRE plans call for living anywhere in the world I want, but that doesn't mean I will have the same expectations in Tokyo and Montana.

Luck12

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2017, 10:37:29 PM »
What do the urban FIRE folk do that makes urban living appealing? Free festivals in the city? I've never been an urban person, so not really sure...

Here are 2 examples:  1)  I play beach volleyball from May to October and also play indoor and have met some close friends because of this and that's soemthing that'd be much more difficult in a rural area, 2 ) I tutor a HS student and also do financial literacy tutoring and definitely there are more such opps in an urban area. 

Other things are I don't relish the thought of maintaining my own home so condo living is better for me.  Something I didn't mention before is that it's comforting as a minority to see other minorities every minute or at least every half-hour that I'm walking the streets in my city.  I doubt that would happen if I was in a rural area.   There's also some really good stuff that Whole Foods and Trader Joe's sell that other stores just don't sell. 
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 10:40:34 PM by Luck12 »

aspiringnomad

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2017, 10:46:22 PM »
I've lived in college towns, cities pushing 8 digits, and everything in between. Never fully rural though.

My FIRE plans call for living anywhere in the world I want, but that doesn't mean I will have the same expectations in Tokyo and Montana.

Ditto on both life experiences and FIRE plans. The only place I really didn't like is the suburbs of big cities. I saw it as the worst of both worlds, but I fully understand others who see the exact opposite. I think when we finally settle, it'll be in a smallish touristy town (partly because a lot of the towns in that country are touristy). Those are often mid level COL but punch above their weight in terms of stuff to do and variety of folks around. Similar to small college towns in the US.

Dollar Slice

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2017, 10:50:18 PM »
I'm always a little hesitant to join in the city vs. rural threads here because I feel like it always devolves into people attacking the one they don't like. Blech.

I feel the same way about NYC as Syonyk feels about the boonies. It's terrible! Don't come here! You'll hate it! Go on, shoo! ;-)

We all value different things and different sorts of people; to me, cities are home (in spite of growing up in the 'burbs). NYC, so far, feels the most "home" of the ones I've lived in. I love the sense of community and "we're all in it together"ness. I adore the high-quality and diverse cultural scene and the people I meet there. I take advantage of cultural opportunities almost constantly - concerts, theater, film, museums, art galleries, parks, etc. I love how friendly the neighbors in my building are. I love that I have access to great hospitals and doctors to treat my health issues. The time it takes to get places is annoying, but if you optimize your commute and develop a more Zen attitude about it, it's fine - time to read, people-watch, or just sit and think. I love not having a car or even a bicycle - the freedom of being able to just go somewhere at any moment and not worry about some big ol' hunk of metal needing to be parked or secured or safely driven home at 1AM is wonderful.

I think the bottom line is that if you really like humans in general, cities are delightful. If you really just want to be around your immediate family and not be bothered by anyone else, rural areas will be more your speed.

To more directly address the OP: I doubt I'll ever want to leave NYC (but things can change; I'm fairly young). Yes, it's definitely pushing my FIRE date way back. But I'm happy and fulfilled here in a way that I'm not in other places, so I don't really mind. I feel oddly trapped when I visit people out in the suburbs/countryside. I feel wonderfully free in the city. Like I can do anything and go anywhere and anything can (and sometimes does) happen.

MrThatsDifferent

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2017, 12:05:41 AM »
I grew up in a very small town, went to a very large public college and then have lived in 3 of the largest, most expensive cities on earth. I can’t ever go small again, but don’t want to pay the insane housing costs of the big cities, so retirement for me will be medium sized cities in LCOL countries, preferably near water.

Herbert Derp

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2017, 12:25:08 AM »
My spending is one of the lowest on these forums, but I live in the downtown of a HCOL city.

When I retire, I do plan to spend a lot of time living in cities. I think there's just more things to do, and a greater variety of interesting people to meet.

You can read my journal here if you want to know more about me:
https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/journals/herbert-derp's-frugal-adventures/

Linea_Norway

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2017, 04:53:24 AM »
I haven't been living in a city for the past 1,5 decade. I really appreciate the silence out in the country, and the fact that you can see wildlife and have hiking trails in the vicinity.

So those are my requirements for FIRE: living away from noise, having a chance to meet wildlife from time to time and close access to hiking/skiing trails. But I also like to live somewhere where I can walk and cycle to shops and where we are not too far from a city where things happen. I want to be able to meet likewise people, so we need access to clubs. But I also love a night sky with a visibly milkyway. So I think we will end up in a small village not too far from one of the larger cities in Norway, which compared to American cities are really small, 50-70K people.

Noodle

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2017, 02:19:12 PM »
If I were in my 60s right now, I would retire to a large city. It has nothing to do with the entertainment level...I want to be able to access top-notch health care and an airport without hours of driving. (This is based on my parents who live in a good-size city but still have to drive through the mountains multiple times a year for things they can only get in the really large city). I hate driving now and I am also familiar with the problems of people who find themselves homebound when they can no longer drive.

However, I still have a couple of decades before I expect to retire, and by then self-driving cars may have changed the landscape. In that case, I would seriously consider living in a smaller town, maybe a college town. I liked small-town living and now the internet and e-commerce have taken away a lot of the disadvantages of being culturally isolated. I would really miss the diversity of my big city, though.

Chris@TTL

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #31 on: July 10, 2020, 09:52:06 AM »
Seems like the urban vs rural debate has become a hotter topic with the pandemic raging. Early on, it seemed like cities were at a higher risk (and they may still be, since people are closer together).
That said, rural areas of the US are struggling now as healthcare capacities are lower.

Frugalwoods just wrote a big post, though pretty balanced, naturally favoring the rural life.

I really enjoyed the perspective as an urban dweller (and ended up writing a retort from the city POV).

What do you all think about this age old urban vs rural living debate in light of the crisis (crises) in the US right now?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2020, 11:56:03 PM by Chris@TTL »

dodojojo

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2020, 10:43:09 AM »
City folk all the way...Currently live in a HCOL and to care for an aging parent, will retire to an extreme HCOL.  So a small stache and homeownership aren't likely feasible.  It means working for a lot longer but it's a choice.  If working ever becomes truly unbearable, I may have to reconsider and think outside of the city box.

I like watching tiny houses videos but they generally seem to be situated outside of cities.  I'd love to see tiny house communities in urban areas.  But with high cost cities, I'm guessing it makes more sense to build up rather use the land for a handful of tiny houses.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2020, 11:33:19 AM »

   On the other hand, I'm sure that people who live in beautiful rural areas in the mountains, for example, would be more likely to do outdoor sports and walking/hiking and take advantage of living in a less densely populated place.



My house is located on beautiful, woodsy acreage in the rural  mountains ~40 miles from YOSE.

This location has always been where I wanted to live in FIREtirement.

I never need to go to a park for hiking or camping since my property itself is just like park property except that since it's private property  I never have to deal with a crowd.

The incessant din of city life is not for me.

And neither are the air pollution and light pollution at night.

I do like  cities' modern architecture.

Looking at photographs of modern art via computer  does not provide the same experience as viewing it in a museum.

But for me these are minor trade-offs.


"Don't Fence Me In"

Oh, give me land, lots of land under starry skies above
Don't fence me in
Let me ride through the wide open country that I love
Don't fence me in
Let me be by myself in the evenin' breeze
And listen to the murmur of the cottonwood trees
Send me off forever but I ask you please
Don't fence me in
Just turn me loose, let me straddle my old saddle
Underneath the western skies
On my cayuse, let me wander over yonder
Till I see the mountains rise
I want to ride to the ridge where the West commences
And gaze at the moon till I lose my senses
And I can't look at hobbles and I can't stand fences
Don't fence me in
Oh, give me land, lots of land under starry skies above
Don't fence me in
Let me ride through the wide open country that I love
Don't fence me in
Let me be by…
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 11:37:00 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2020, 11:48:13 AM »
Seems like the urban vs rural debate has become a hotter topic with the pandemic raging. Early on, it seemed like cities were at a higher risk (and they may still be, since people are closer together).
That said, rural areas of the US are struggling now as healthcare capacities are lower.

Frugalwoods just wrote a big post, though pretty balanced, naturally favoring the rural life.

I really enjoyed the perspective as an urban dweller (and ended up writing a retort from the city POV).

What do you all think about this age old urban vs rural living debate in light of the crisis (crises) in the US right now?


AFAIK, there have been ~15 cases of  COVID-19 in my rural county so I am more confident that I won't be exposed  to it  than I would be  if I lived  in a city.


 

zinnie

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2020, 11:59:44 AM »
I've always lived in HCOL cities and plan to keep it up post-FIRE! At least in my experience, HCOL gives you HCOL salaries--which, when combined with frugality and little creativity, can work to your advantage. Plus when planning to stay somewhere expensive with your stash, most places you could ever want to live in the future would be either a lateral move or a step down. So it gives you way more freedom in the future. I don't know if it made my path to FIRE longer, but I wouldn't change anything!

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2020, 12:03:20 PM »



  I'll go outside on a moonless night just to watch the stars.  The sky is full of them in a way that is foreign to people who live in a city.  I can pretty much read by the moon when it's full.



+1.

Kris

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2020, 12:12:12 PM »
I grew up in small towns, and as an adult I would never want to live in one or in the country. I feel incredibly stifled in small towns. I did give it a shot once for about three years (tried two different towns when I took a job out in a rural area) and honestly it was pretty awful for me.

I like being out in nature, but for me, that's what vacations and long weekends are for.

So FIREing in a city is non-negotiable. I have to live in a city. Thankfully, I do live in a Midwestern city that hasn't quite gotten so horribly expensive COL-wise (yet).
« Last Edit: July 10, 2020, 12:18:08 PM by Kris »

Paul der Krake

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2020, 12:24:35 PM »
I grew up in small towns, and as an adult I would never want to live in one or in the country. I feel incredibly stifled in small towns. I did give it a shot once for about three years (tried two different towns when I took a job out in a rural area) and honestly it was pretty awful for me.
Right now I live in a small town of 4,000 with the weird quirk that it gets millions of visitors every year and is within 45 minutes of a large city. Let's see... there's one CVS, one Ace Hardware, one overpriced grocery store, one bank, a couple restaurants, and maybe two dozens novelty boutiques that cater to the day visitors. If it weren't for the outdoors that bring in the crowds, I'd shoot my brains out. Small town living is not for me. I'm in no rush to move, but my next location (TBD) will be a city, or at least a much larger town.

dignam

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2020, 12:47:02 PM »
I've spend considerable time/lived in towns and cities of all sizes, and I find myself gravitating toward less populated areas as I get closer to FIRE.  Just a bonus that it tends to be cheaper than bigger cities.

As mentioned already, people seem to think it's all or nothing.  There are mid sized cities that provide many, but not all, of the features of a huge city but not near the overcrowding, and likely much closer to nature.  Midwest/Great Lakes USA is chock full of these cities (Ann Arbor, Cleveland, Milwaukee, Madison, Des Moines, Twin Cities, etc.).  People tend to associate them with manufacturing and related decay.  But there is definitely a shift going on; every time I visit Milwaukee it surprises me how vastly different, in a good way, it is compared to what it was in the 90s.  I'm sure other cities are reshaping as well.

Kris

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2020, 01:22:19 PM »
I've spend considerable time/lived in towns and cities of all sizes, and I find myself gravitating toward less populated areas as I get closer to FIRE.  Just a bonus that it tends to be cheaper than bigger cities.

As mentioned already, people seem to think it's all or nothing.  There are mid sized cities that provide many, but not all, of the features of a huge city but not near the overcrowding, and likely much closer to nature.  Midwest/Great Lakes USA is chock full of these cities (Ann Arbor, Cleveland, Milwaukee, Madison, Des Moines, Twin Cities, etc.).  People tend to associate them with manufacturing and related decay.  But there is definitely a shift going on; every time I visit Milwaukee it surprises me how vastly different, in a good way, it is compared to what it was in the 90s.  I'm sure other cities are reshaping as well.

Agreed. Add Omaha to that list. Omaha is surprisingly great.

trollwithamustache

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2020, 04:07:11 PM »
Cities are underrated for lowering your cost of living by only renting the apartment you need.

If you are FIRE with a rent controlled apartment, thats also a risk reduction. (assuming the subject city has rent control)

havregryn

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2020, 04:53:51 PM »
I get you 100%. I grew up in a small town and I can't bear the thought of living like that again. I am miserable here in Luxembourg because I wouldn't exactly call any of this a city.  Obviously this is also an HCOL hell hole so good old regular European cities feel cheap in comparison.

For me too being able to get everything done without a car and being able to regularly experience new things without having to travel are central to quality of life. I would struggle in a rural area. I feel uneasy just thinking about it. I guess this is really individual, because obviously a lot of people thrive in less urban environments. I am not one of those people. It is good you posted this, sometimes I have these moments when I think how in the post covid world our jobs may be remote so it might be possible to look for a cheap house somewhere... Nope.

Buffaloski Boris

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2020, 05:27:08 PM »
We should remember that we the population densities of cities vary greatly. The (American) urban city I live in is nowhere near as densely populated as large European cities typically are.

Also, I disagree that rural areas are necessarily cheaper than cities overall. Yeah, the housing is typically cheaper but transportation costs will eat you alive due to the mileage, wear and tear, and the increased likelihood that you’ll wreck your car in a deer encounter. There are fewer stores so groceries are often more expensive. And since things are so spread out you have fewer choices.

There are some quality of life issues that the country does win out on in my view. If you want to go out and see the birds or hunt or target shoot or just stroll in the fresh air, the country is the place to be. There seem to be fewer busybodies in rural areas. At least in my personal experience. So in terms of being left alone it has the upper hand in my view.

It all boils down to personal preference. And when in doubt, diversification works. 

Icecreamarsenal

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2020, 09:23:05 AM »
Yeah, it's all relative.  I used to think Manhattan was a big city before getting out and seeing the world.  Now I've come to realize it could be a neatly tucked away suburb of Tokyo, skyscrapers and all.

There's a book called Happy City by Charles Montgomery.  One of the reasons that people enjoy cities, when they do, is the number of serendipitous encounters between loosely tied friends and acquaintances is usually higher than in non-cities.  Apparently this brings joy to most people.

I'm trying to recall the details... there is a belief that rural/suburban living is somehow more 'natural', but humans naturally seek city living.  Interdependence is more natural, and rural/suburban living is a byproduct of urban sprawl, which was facilitated by the auto industry lobbying for highways, etc.

This leads to highly inefficient living: every person needs their own water, sewer lines, walls, etc.  Lots of driving facilitated by roads facilitated by taxes.

It's been a while, so don't shoot the messenger, but that was the gist of it.  In a more positive, evidence-based light. 

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2020, 09:37:41 AM »


Also, I disagree that rural areas are necessarily cheaper than cities overall. Yeah, the housing is typically cheaper but transportation costs will eat you alive due to the mileage, wear and tear, and the increased likelihood that you’ll wreck your car in a deer encounter.

As much as I prefer living in the rural mountains I would not if I had a long  commute.

 I'd probably live in small city or big town closer to my place of employment.

As for hitting deer, I've had a few close calls.

Luckily, I was moving @< 20 MPH each time.

BookLoverL

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2020, 09:57:45 AM »
I think rural vs town vs city is likely a matter of personality. You can create a good FIRE lifestyle in any one of them, so pick the one you enjoy the most.

I myself suspect would struggle in a big city because I'd find it too noisy and hectic.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2020, 10:15:17 AM »
I think rural vs town vs city is likely a matter of personality.

It seems that personality must have some influence.

I myself suspect would struggle in a big city because I'd find it too noisy and hectic.

+1 as I posted upthread.


Chris@TTL

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #48 on: July 12, 2020, 03:34:35 PM »
Woo glad to see bringing this thread back to life has some good conversation going! :)

Thought it might be a hot topic with all going on right now.

I think we should all remember this though:
I think rural vs town vs city is likely a matter of personality. You can create a good FIRE lifestyle in any one of them, so pick the one you enjoy the most.
It's not really that one is better than the other, but there's certainly one that fits a person (or personality) best.

Bouncing these ideas around--compare & contrast--as I did between city life and country life, should help us all evaluate our best decision.

I've spend considerable time/lived in towns and cities of all sizes, and I find myself gravitating toward less populated areas as I get closer to FIRE.  Just a bonus that it tends to be cheaper than bigger cities.

As mentioned already, people seem to think it's all or nothing.  There are mid sized cities that provide many, but not all, of the features of a huge city but not near the overcrowding, and likely much closer to nature.  Midwest/Great Lakes USA is chock full of these cities (Ann Arbor, Cleveland, Milwaukee, Madison, Des Moines, Twin Cities, etc.).  People tend to associate them with manufacturing and related decay.  But there is definitely a shift going on; every time I visit Milwaukee it surprises me how vastly different, in a good way, it is compared to what it was in the 90s.  I'm sure other cities are reshaping as well.

This is definitely the direction we've gone. MCOL city somewhat near a coast with great access to all our needs and wants at a reasonable cost ($230k town/rowhouse in 2013!).
« Last Edit: September 02, 2020, 11:54:00 PM by Chris@TTL »

Channel-Z

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Re: FIRE for city people
« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2020, 05:00:08 PM »
I grew up in a university town (pop. 50,000 then, more like 100,000 now). I think it's a nice balance between the two. I've lived in large cities all of my adult life. I'm not sure I could handle some of the small towns (pop. 10,000 or fewer) where my relatives lived.

The suburbs are really hot right now as you might expect. As I heard on TV once, the suburbs have all disadvantages of the city and none of the advantages of the country, and vice versa.