Author Topic: FIRE Fears?  (Read 15985 times)

tooqk4u22

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FIRE Fears?
« on: October 03, 2013, 08:33:47 AM »
As I work toward FIRE I try to think about what it will be like and what things I will worry about?  By nature I like to manage/account for risk, don't confuse this with being risk averse, its just that I want to plan for different scenarios. Couple of thoughts that I think I am or will struggle with are the following:

1. What will I do?  I am not satisfied in my current employment I fear I have become institutionalized and am one with my career and I just can't seem to "See the light" of FIRE.  I certainly will spend more time with my kids and can see getting a few things fixed on the house but what else. I can't do nothing for very long, DW gets annoyed if we take a few days off becaue by the second day I am looking for something to do...inevitably I turn to some house project. My hope is that during those first few months of FIRE I will become refreshed and some interest/passion/activity will reveal itself to me. I don't know.  I spend a lot of time thinking about this but nothing comes to mind.....I envy all of you who have more interests than you know what to do with.

2. Not having the cushion.  Going from a large savings rate to spending my savings will be psychologically difficult for me.  I know it is false fear, but it gives me great comfort that if something big comes up I simply deal with it by reducing savings rate for a time and not actually using savings.  Also, my whole life I have always treated money in savings as if it were gone (i.e. untouchable).  The fear is even more false because of per #1 above I will likely be working/making money in some capacity just to be busy and also to fund some of the additional luxuries such as extended trips.


Anybody else have fears/worries about FIRE?

Spork

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2013, 08:40:53 AM »

#1 doesn't bother me a bit.

...but I feel your fear for #2.  I know deep down the chances of success are very very close to 100%.  I can run firecalc and get historical 100% models.  But I do get that feeling of self doubt, too.


matchewed

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2013, 09:27:04 AM »
As for #1 I personally look back at past passions. Even going as far as things I used to enjoy in high school. I used to throw pots and to do so I'd need a wheel, preferably electric so maybe build one, a kiln, a clay recycling system... etc. My point being that something as seemingly simple as that could take some time to set up the infrastructure to pull off. Maybe tackle something new...

I guess I see the potential out there, not that I necessarily have all those interests, but maybe those interests can grow if you dedicate time to it. I seem to recall an interview with William Gibson where he discussed an intentional development of an interest in watches. And maybe that's an approach, find something that may not interest you now but that you may want to cultivate, this includes business ideas in my mind.

As for #2 I personally find the security that even a crappy low responsibility part time job can bring enough of a cushion if stuff hits the fan.

smalllife

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2013, 09:27:44 AM »
I have enough on my wish/to-do list and enough of a desire to learn new things that filling my time is actually one of the things driving me to FIRE.

One of my biggest fears is that my spending will increase due to projects, volunteering costs, new ventures I'd like to start, desire to get another degree, etc.   While logically I know that I will continue to work at least part time for fun and that money can be used for such items, it is the FIRE expenses that are an unknown.  Of course, my expenses in 15 years are unknown in any capacity so it's a little early to be thinking about that :-)

grantmeaname

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #4 on: October 03, 2013, 09:34:24 AM »
#1 doesn't bother me a bit.

...but I feel your fear for #2.  I know deep down the chances of success are very very close to 100%.  I can run firecalc and get historical 100% models.  But I do get that feeling of self doubt, too.
I agree on both counts. I think that the mindset that makes us successful savers also makes us secretly feel we're doing something wrong when we actually use the savings. No, really, self, I'm allowed to take cash out of the stash.

Spork

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #5 on: October 03, 2013, 10:11:17 AM »
#1 doesn't bother me a bit.

...but I feel your fear for #2.  I know deep down the chances of success are very very close to 100%.  I can run firecalc and get historical 100% models.  But I do get that feeling of self doubt, too.
I agree on both counts. I think that the mindset that makes us successful savers also makes us secretly feel we're doing something wrong when we actually use the savings. No, really, self, I'm allowed to take cash out of the stash.

yeah... and for me saving is a habit that I've been at since about 13.  I've had my share of "spendy moments" but the savings is so habitual that it's hard to allow oneself to stop.

I took a few years off a while back (on purpose... in a burnout) and living 3 years off work eventually got me in a bit of a tizzy with "ohmygod what'll I do?"  Note that at no point was there an actual problem and when I went back to work my stash was still significant enough to be "near FIRE" ... but I STILL managed to have self doubt.

brewer12345

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2013, 10:50:09 AM »
I am right there with you on both counts.  I am staring down the barrel of a Jan 2nd quit date, a whole 91 days away.  I have been working towards this for 15 years, but it is still scary.  I don't know exactly what I will spend my days doing and the spending question is always there.  So yeah, it is natural be a little scared, and this is a huge life change.

What is getting me over the hump is a few things:

- I am sick of my job.  I never wanted to do this and only took the spot because I became unemployed about a month before Lehman blew up and my present employer was the only game in town.  I can't stay here and would be looking for a new job if I weren't ready to take a leap.

- I am getting older.  I turned 40 last month and it is a real good reminder that you only have so much time and some thing are best done younger than older.

- I am not commiting to anything.  If I find that I am bored or don't have enough money I can go get another job.  I might start a business or done some contract work.  I might take up a new hobby.

- I really want to have more of my time and energy to spend with my family and on my interests.  My job/employers' wishes have come first too often and for too long.

CopperTex

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2013, 11:21:20 AM »
You shouldn't be too worried - if you take 6 months to do all the projects around the house you want to do, etc. and end up bored out of your skull, just go back to work! Even if for just part time, or doing something you enjoy.  I really like the 4 hour work week concept of "mini retirements", but only after the nest egg has already been established.

tooqk4u22

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2013, 12:09:57 PM »
What is getting me over the hump is a few things:

- I am sick of my job.  I never wanted to do this and only took the spot because I became unemployed about a month before Lehman blew up and my present employer was the only game in town.  I can't stay here and would be looking for a new job if I weren't ready to take a leap.

Yup, well I guess I chose my career but it is not what I "wanted" to do.  That said, I am good at it and it has been good to me financially as I am able to entertain such pointless concerns when compared to the majority of people in the world. Regardless, I am tired.

- I am getting older.  I turned 40 last month and it is a real good reminder that you only have so much time and some thing are best done younger than older.

Big reason I am working to FIRE....life is too damn short.

- I am not commiting to anything.  If I find that I am bored or don't have enough money I can go get another job.  I might start a business or done some contract work.  I might take up a new hobby.

I won't be able to help myself, just hope it is something I enjoy or want to do and I don't gravitate back to what I know how to do. I might have a fear of the ego too such that when having the option to work or do what I want I may struggle with the notion of I was an expert in my field and made x....so why would l work for less, rhetorical question of course but catch myself thinking that way now.

- I really want to have more of my time and energy to spend with my family and on my interests.  My job/employers' wishes have come first too often and for too long.

Yes, yes, yes. Shit...now that my kids are getting into all kinds of activities (big budget suck BTW) it will be like a full time job in of itself getting them to and from and watching...fun and rewarding but stressful and aggrevating when jammed into long work days.

brewer12345

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2013, 12:32:17 PM »
re: ego issues, I can feel that looming to some extent as well.  I expect it to be a bit disorienting to go from someone with a title and letters after my name with a very specific place in a large hierarchy to... a nobody with an office in my basement.  It will pass, I expect.  It helps that I have always viewed myself as essetially a mercenary.

Tyler

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #10 on: October 03, 2013, 12:55:15 PM »
I won't be able to help myself, just hope it is something I enjoy or want to do and I don't gravitate back to what I know how to do. I might have a fear of the ego too such that when having the option to work or do what I want I may struggle with the notion of I was an expert in my field and made x....so why would l work for less, rhetorical question of course but catch myself thinking that way now.

Regarding fear of finding something you enjoy + the fear of spending down savings, just go back to Firecalc and run the same numbers assuming you make just $5k a year doing part time fun stuff.  With mustachian spending levels, the positive impact on your retirement safety is quite large. 

In FI, making less doesn't bother me as long as I enjoy the work more than the time required.  I find the freedom to make that choice the ultimate show of power.  ;)  I look forward to trying a bunch of small money-making things just for the fun of it.  Zoo worker, bike mechanic, self-selected freelance work -- that kind of stuff.  Whenever one thing gets old, I'll just try something new.  With the pressure to make a big salary gone, I'll have the freedom to explore.


grandcanyon

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2013, 07:05:20 PM »
My fear is related to health insurance and the cost of health care in general. Will medicare still be around in twenty years and what will the level of coverage be --i.e., how much I will have to pay. Also, what will be my cost of health insurance and health care until I hit medicare age. This leads to fears of not having enough savings due to events that someone can't plan for or use a simulator to simulate.

Paul der Krake

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2013, 07:24:55 PM »
My fear is related to health insurance and the cost of health care in general. Will medicare still be around in twenty years and what will the level of coverage be --i.e., how much I will have to pay. Also, what will be my cost of health insurance and health care until I hit medicare age. This leads to fears of not having enough savings due to events that someone can't plan for or use a simulator to simulate.
I worry about things like that too every now and then, then remember that should I develop some sort of costly disease in my old age, there are plenty of first-world countries that will happily take my money to give me the same quality of care for a fraction of the price.

Insurance for short term medical issues, my passport for long term ones.

steveo

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2013, 08:00:29 PM »
I really like the 4 hour work week concept of "mini retirements", but only after the nest egg has already been established.

I like this idea as well but I just couldn't justify a mini-retirement prior to being able to retire for good. As this is the case and because I really don't love work and I could do more enjoyable things with my time I think I will simply retire or possibly work part-time.

brewer12345

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2013, 08:56:39 PM »
My fear is related to health insurance and the cost of health care in general. Will medicare still be around in twenty years and what will the level of coverage be --i.e., how much I will have to pay. Also, what will be my cost of health insurance and health care until I hit medicare age. This leads to fears of not having enough savings due to events that someone can't plan for or use a simulator to simulate.

As Paul indicates, you can always head overseas for care at a fraction of the US cost.  As far as the rest, build contingencies into your plan.  The good thing about retiring early is that you still have enough energy and flexibility to adapt to challenges as they arise.

Gray Matter

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2013, 04:45:23 AM »
Great conversation and insights!

I don't worry about number one in some ways, because my mind is full of things I'd like to do if I had more time:  rehab old houses, write a coffee table book with black-and-white photography, go on extended volunteer "vacations," foster kids, foster dogs, start a blog, teach at a community college, etc.

But I do worry about being self-motivated enough to do any of these things.  Right now, despite my good intentions, when I get free time, I am most likely to collapse into a puddle on the floor and only get up when I have to.  I am a bit concerned that I will just while away the time if there is no external accountability.  But then again, who cares, right?  There's no law that says I have to be productive, as long as I can live off the spoils of having been productive.  That said, I'm not sure I would be happy unless I'm doing something, and if that's the case, it's not hard to go get external accountability (get a job, join a board, etc.).

As for number 2, yes, that is a huge mindset shift.  I have two savings accounts.  One attached to my checking account in which I make sure there is enough to cover anticipated expenses for the year (e.g., if we're taking a big international trip, taxes, etc.).  I have a separate savings account at the brokerage firm where my investments are and in the five years since I opened it, I have only ever put money into it.  We expected to take money out, for a new car when my old one dies (16 years and counting!), for a mudroom/kitchen remodel (that we have since decided against), but so far we haven't had to and I think that first withdrawal is going to be very painful.

2527

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2013, 08:52:46 AM »
I like this website because I can discuss things with like-minded people and we aren't part of a F2F community.  I have had the following experience related to this thread:

I was an air force officer for 21 years, made a nice salary, had low expenses, saved a lot, invested well, and retired from the military with its pension and about $1.5M.

We chose to retire where I grew up and near my sister, which happens to be a pretty high income and expensive area in the Philly suburbs.  Kids are in great schools and that is fantastic.

I didn't make much money for the first five years, but didn't touch my investments either because I never did that, I always saved, and I was frustrated that the real problem was my earned income was low.

Finally, after 5 years, I improved my job income to a reasonable level, but not as good as it was in the military or what is typical of my peers around here, but good enough.  And, after 5 years, I finally convinced myself that I can take 1.5-2% of my net worth every year, spend it, enjoy it, do good things for my family, and still take care of myself, pay for my kids' colleges, and give them about $1M, in today's dollars, each in inheritance.    That seems obvious, but I really had to crank the numbers over and over again and work on it in my head to become comfortable with it. 

I know I could retire early, but my job isn't all that demanding, and it just isn't something I'm ready to do right now when our lives revolve around our kids's going to school anyhow.

Nords

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2013, 02:13:01 PM »
I know I could retire early, but my job isn't all that demanding, and it just isn't something I'm ready to do right now when our lives revolve around our kids's going to school anyhow.
If you like what you're doing then you should keep doing it. 

You'll know when it's time to go-- the job will start interfering with other things that you'd rather be doing... for example, spending more time with family.

RootofGood

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2013, 03:35:24 PM »
Speaking from the other side (the FIREside lol), it is awesome.  Every day when you wake up you can do whatever you want.

I never had concerns about #1 from the OP's post.  I immediately jotted down a few things I wanted to do in my first month:

  • Ebay a bunch of stuff
  • Learn a foreign language or 3
  • Investigate starting a blog and/or a Youtube channel
  • Get more exercise
  • Cook even more than I already have been, and perfect some new dishes
  • Hang out with more people more often
  • Play more video games
  • Read more books

I made significant headway with these tasks, but found I need to focus more on sitting back and relaxing.  I thought I would sit around and read more, watch more tv, etc.  Hasn't been the case at all. 

Make a list and figure out what you can do.  Fixing up your house isn't a bad thing to put on the list.

As for #2, I struggle a little bit with the notion that our savings are finite and we can't do everything.  I also know I can go back to work if our frugal lifestyle ever becomes overly burdensome.  Or I could pick up some very part time hours or consulting work to make some beer money so I can be a little frivolous. 

And if you still like your job ok and don't mind doing it, keep at it.  I'm sure the money is great and it will help reduce fears of #2.  Some day you'll realize you are mortal, have a limited amount of time left to enjoy life, and realize your job is a great income source but not the best way to craft a creative, interesting, fulfilling rest of your life.

happy

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2013, 06:44:52 PM »
If you've got into a groove with your career defining your role and self-identity to the extent you can't figure out who else you might be, I second Matchewed's idea of thinking back to when you were younger. As well I'd go even further though. Back to what you liked when you were a small child. What were you naturally attracted to and enjoyed doing? Start daydreaming. Start playing with some of your ideas even before you retire if you can.


ozzage

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2013, 01:57:52 AM »
But I do worry about being self-motivated enough to do any of these things.  Right now, despite my good intentions, when I get free time, I am most likely to collapse into a puddle on the floor and only get up when I have to.  I am a bit concerned that I will just while away the time if there is no external accountability.  But then again, who cares, right?  There's no law that says I have to be productive, as long as I can live off the spoils of having been productive.  That said, I'm not sure I would be happy unless I'm doing something, and if that's the case, it's not hard to go get external accountability (get a job, join a board, etc.).

This. I'm inherently lazy, and I'm afraid that without somebody hounding me I'll just sit on my laptop all day. I'm surprised more people don't worry about this.

I actually have a whole list of things I want to when retired - big and small - but to be honest I also have a list of things I'd like to do NOW and I'm not exactly ticking them off at a great pace....

Is that just because I'm working and therefore always tired and need to rest? Perhaps..... but what if it's just because I'm lazy? The possibilities of all that freedom are mind-blowing so I hope I can be bothered actually taking advantage of them! I'm scared of this aspect of things.

Gray Matter

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2013, 05:29:35 AM »
I actually have a whole list of things I want to when retired - big and small - but to be honest I also have a list of things I'd like to do NOW and I'm not exactly ticking them off at a great pace....

Is that just because I'm working and therefore always tired and need to rest?

This.  I tell myself that I get nothing done when I don't have to, because I'm so darned tired from all the doing when I do have to.  That may or may not be true.  I'm also a terrible procrastinator, and don't know if that's because I generally exhausted and don't want to do those things, or if I'm just inherently that way.

I think before I retire, I will need to have thought through a backup plan if full-on retirement isn't for me.  I'm less concerned about being really productive, but I am concerned about being happy, and I know how unhappy a wasted weekend makes me feel.  But then again, once the pressure is off to make every weekend really, really fun, and relaxing, and also get all the household stuff taken care of before the busy workweek starts, maybe it won't make me unhappy to do nothing?

golden1

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2013, 05:55:19 AM »
I think about this a lot.  I was a SAHM for eight years so I had some "practice" at FIRE and I have to be honest and say I didn't do very well with unstructured time.  I was okay when the kids were little because almost all my time was spoken for, but once they started going to school, I floundered.  Now I am working full time and in some ways I am happier but I am also tired/stressed more than I would like to be.

I think a perfect balance for me would be working part time 2-3 days a week at a low stress job which is what I plan on doing once I am FI, which won't be for awhile in my case.  I could also totally see myself being a weekday caretaker for grandchildren if my kids have need of that.  I would love to travel, exercise more regularly, all of that stuff. 

SnackDog

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2013, 06:09:12 AM »
Thanks for raising one of the more interesting and useful discussions on this board, which frankly has been getting a bit stale.  I share both your concerns, although I'm pretty sure I will be able to get busy (item 1) I definitely do NOT like spending money, particularly from savings. 

My old man was the same way.  When he retired after 30 years in a technical job, he drove a school bus for a couple years to get him out of the house and to make the mortgage payment.  He got a side benefit of driving the ski bus on weekends, which included free lift passes and lunch, in addition to saving on personal gas and mileage to drive up there.  My mother was not to impressed to be married to a bus driver, but he was thrilled!

I am not keen to retire before mortgages are paid off, regardless of how rosy the finances are (and they should be), as I don't want to fund mortgage payments out of savings.  If I do convince myself to do retire early, it would be nice to have some side income to support expenses.  I was thinking of teaching at a community college for a few years, if I can find one I like which is not far away, although I''m not sure what they pay.  I did teach two semesters of a physical science years ago and enjoyed it enormously, although it was hard work on top of a day job.

In general, community colleges (and colleges/universities) in general are great for retirees.  One can take or teach courses but also use rec facilities, watch sporting events, etc.  Figure these into your plans!


CopperTex

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2013, 07:27:26 AM »

I will need to have thought through a backup plan if full-on retirement isn't for me

I think this is an excellent idea and something ever potential early retiree should consider! I think what alot of just might need is just a few months off.

Trirod

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2013, 07:46:09 AM »
Not too worried about #1.  Even if I retired today at age 45 and live to 95, I still won't get everything done that I want to.

I am worried about #2.  Maybe not in a year like 2013 where the market is up so much that I wouldn't even notice my withdrawals.  My concern would be in a year like 2008 where the S&P 500 crashed 40%.  I know intellectually that the answers to that are:
 - stay the course - don't panic
 - diversify
 - earn a side income
 - reduce spending
But right now I see a market correction/crash as a great buying opportunity.  After retirement I am not sure how stressed I would get about it.

Nords

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2013, 08:19:49 AM »
But I do worry about being self-motivated enough to do any of these things.  Right now, despite my good intentions, when I get free time, I am most likely to collapse into a puddle on the floor and only get up when I have to.  I am a bit concerned that I will just while away the time if there is no external accountability.  But then again, who cares, right?  There's no law that says I have to be productive, as long as I can live off the spoils of having been productive.  That said, I'm not sure I would be happy unless I'm doing something, and if that's the case, it's not hard to go get external accountability (get a job, join a board, etc.).
This. I'm inherently lazy, and I'm afraid that without somebody hounding me I'll just sit on my laptop all day. I'm surprised more people don't worry about this.
Is that just because I'm working and therefore always tired and need to rest? Perhaps..... but what if it's just because I'm lazy? The possibilities of all that freedom are mind-blowing so I hope I can be bothered actually taking advantage of them! I'm scared of this aspect of things.
It's difficult to reassure people on this issue. 

I use a couple of metaphors.  One of them is the "fog of work" (a military play on words) that keeps you from getting up off the couch to change your life.  (http://the-military-guide.com/2011/01/06/the-fog-of-work/)  Chronic fatigue (and willpower erosion) is real and debilitating.  When I retired I slept hard, long, and often for at least a month before my fog of work began to lift.

Another metaphor is childhood.  When school let out for the summer, you had two choices.  If you sat around and whined about how bored you were, your parents found some horrible chore for you.  As an adult with your own responsibilities, the same is still true:  if you're bored there's always yardwork and home maintenance.  But the reality of childhood was that the summer raced by faster than you'd believe possible.  Every day was full of plans, you went full-bore from before dawn to after sunset, you were in the flow, and you still had things left undone.  You were perfectly capable of entertaining yourself as a kid, and as an adult you'll still be able to do so.

I have a copy of Ernie Zelinski's "Get-A-Life Tree" mindmap sitting on my desk.  (http://bestretirementquotes.blogspot.com/2009/10/get-life-tree-great-retirement-planning.html)  It's sat there for over a decade, and it's still blank.  I've been too busy to get around to figuring out what I could be doing all day.

In the 1990s, Intel's sabbatical program became available to a number of their more senior workers.  Most of them took off several months, and a few were gone for nearly a year.  It completely ruined them for work-- when they returned, they discovered that they'd been suffering from the "boiled frog" syndrome and no longer had any patience for a toxic corporate environment.  But aside from that, they learned that retirement was a great gig because they got to practice it for a few months while being secure in the knowledge that they could always go back to work.  It's possible to duplicate that at home with a long vacation (at least several weeks) or unpaid leave.

Don't get me wrong:  most people won't retire and immediately start working on your Great American Project.  You'll play a lot of Windows Solitaire or video games, and you'll read a lot of websites or catch up on the latest TV pop culture.  But after a few weeks of that, your brain will kickstart and you'll be living your retirement dreams.  You can cut down on the "mindless recovery" phase by forcing yourself to walk a few miles a day or some other form of daily exercise, or you can jump into volunteering if you've found something that really interests you.  But it's perfectly fine to enjoy a few months of aimless idleness.  When you sleep for 12 hours and can't get out of bed until after lunch then you may have a problem, but otherwise everything's going to work out fine.

The short answer is that everyone worries about being responsible for their own entertainment in retirement.  After they retired, though, they wondered what the heck they were worrying about.

Not too worried about #1.  Even if I retired today at age 45 and live to 95, I still won't get everything done that I want to.

I am worried about #2.  Maybe not in a year like 2013 where the market is up so much that I wouldn't even notice my withdrawals.  My concern would be in a year like 2008 where the S&P 500 crashed 40%.  I know intellectually that the answers to that are:
 - stay the course - don't panic
 - diversify
 - earn a side income
 - reduce spending
But right now I see a market correction/crash as a great buying opportunity.  After retirement I am not sure how stressed I would get about it.
I'm not sure whether the stress is age-related or retirement-related.  After 1987's Black Monday we put everything we could into the markets for an entire year, and I remember feeling like a kid in a candy store.  We got through 2001-2002 with some pretty stressful discussions about our portfolio, and I retired in June 2002 only to watch things get even worse (the bottom was Oct).  But of course 2003-2007 made up for all of that angst.

2008-09 was vicious because it was so unexpected, but also because we'd been been through this before.  We were frustrated that we apparently hadn't learned from experience and were still caught by surprise.  In retrospect, however, we did all the right things.  We put our 16-year-old's college fund 100% into CDs, we did a lot of tax-loss swapping on the way down, and we jumped in with extra funds in early 2009 (a couple tense months before the bottom).  We even spent extra money on home improvement because contractors were really cheap and eager to work.  But despite three decades of investing experience, we quickly tired of the uncertainty and doom/gloom.  We knew that we had "enough", but we just wanted to feel more comfortable about spending money.

The answer seems to be to have a little more cash in the portfolio... instead of two years' expenses in CDs, feel comfortable with easing up to three whenever the stock market hits a new high.  Then you can either sit on it or treat it as "dry powder".

For those who would've been upset by Black Monday (let alone the tech wreck or the financial crisis) the answer is to diversify away from stocks into annuities, real estate funds, rental properties, dividend equities, long-term CDs, and other streams of income that don't depend on realizing capital gains.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 08:21:57 AM by Nords »

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2013, 10:20:54 AM »
My DH retired in 2011. He had the same fears. We do struggle with funding his need to stay busy but over time he has done a good job of balancing his time. We've added 2 rentals to his list of things to do but after he did their initial rehabs and passed them on to the PM to be rented, its been very quiet on that front. He knows he can always go back to work in some capacity if he gets too bored, or if he wants to buy something totally outside of our current budget and I think that is comforting in itself. He was a general commercial foreman and one thing he does is keep his electrician's license up to date completing required CEUs as needed.

He did have grand dreams of writing and learning languages, but after 2 years I think those more academic type activities don't come easy for him. What he is good at is taking care of our properties, they are neat as a pin. I never in a million years thought my home would look like some old retirees home. Perfect new paint outside and remodeled inside. Nothing over the top because we are very strict with our budget. He diligently works with our PM on our rentals, they mostly just need yard maintenance, but now he is scheduling time to go clean the gutters and check roofs.

Another activity he has really latched onto that is surprising is walking. He goes on a walk or adventure of some type every day. The only days he will not go walk in the morning is if the weather is very bad. It has to be a total downpour out for him to not head out on his walk. I work from home in the early am and He will get up around 8am, and wave on his way out.  We walk together on the weekends. I am looking forward to the day when we both are retired and we can walk together every day.

My target for quitting is 3-5 years and already I am struggling with work. The light at the end of the tunnel is near I am practicing patience while I count the days.

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2013, 11:02:10 AM »
How far away is FI?  Could you ease into it gradually?  Reduce your work hours now and spend more time with the kids now?  You might work a couple extra years pt but maybe it is worth it?

I still work, but pt and from home mostly.  I was at my kids game last night and will go to the PAC meeting tonight.  One kid is sick today so he stayed home with me.  I really enjoy the retirement-like flexibility while I have kids in the house.  I could go all out now, but I would be stressed and would miss out on a lot of things with family that just are not worth the money - I know because I did this when the kids were really young.  If I had a redo I probably would have downshifted a little earlier. 

Making time for creating strong social ties might make the transition to retirement easier too.  That is my new plan :)  I'm starting to get involved in more group stuff and doing more entertaining.  It was hard to do this while we were engaged in renovations.  The group stuff is hard for me as I'm more introverted, but I'm picking things I have a lot of interest in like gardening and my kids activities.

Also, for me, I worry a bit less about the safe rate of withdrawal because I have some control as larger part of our income will come from rental properties.  I've been managing them for long enough and know the local markets well enough that I think I can predict the rate of return going forward fairly well.

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2013, 01:37:24 PM »
Thanks for raising one of the more interesting and useful discussions on this board

Thanks.  I do find it funny that everyone is just responding to my two points and not really interjecting their own fears....not sure if it is because I was too specific about mine/didn't ask clear enough for others or is it because these are two primary fears of FIRE candidates.  Healthcare was always a primary fear but that seems to have subsided a bit with Obamacare.....but it still worries me.


How far away is FI?  Could you ease into it gradually?  Reduce your work hours now and spend more time with the kids now?  You might work a couple extra years pt but maybe it is worth it?

I am getting closer everyday and I see the light but not close enough just yet. What I do really doesn't allow for part time - that said I the past few Wednesday's my kids hockey practice was at 5PM and I took him - like taking a half day due to getting from work and to location.  This is NOT something I would have done a couple of years ago, but while I am not FIRE yet I am close enough and as a result do have enough for FU money.

Given my #1 fear of how to keep busy I fully expect to be working part time in some capacity and that will help solve fear #2.....also it will be needed to pay for hockey.....what an expensive sport.


Making time for creating strong social ties might make the transition to retirement easier too.  That is my new plan :)  I'm starting to get involved in more group stuff and doing more entertaining.  It was hard to do this while we were engaged in renovations.  The group stuff is hard for me as I'm more introverted, but I'm picking things I have a lot of interest in like gardening and my kids activities.

This is important and ideal - like others have expressed in this forum I live in an area where consumerism reignsin all regards.  Without question those in my neighborhood view us as impoverished, and likely without question we have more wealth than most of those in our neighborhood. That said, most of them are good people who we enjoy being around, it is just difficult to get buy-in for getting together at houses or doing pot-lucks, it happens but the default seems to always be lets go somewhere....we say no a lot, good thing they think we are poor but the friendships aren't as strong because of this.

Also, for me, I worry a bit less about the safe rate of withdrawal because I have some control as larger part of our income will come from rental properties.  I've been managing them for long enough and know the local markets well enough that I think I can predict the rate of return going forward fairly well.

Yeah, I am not really worried about this, I just hate taking from savings and always have, so not sure I will hate it any less when I am FIRE.

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2013, 03:35:41 PM »
1. What will I do?  I am not satisfied in my current employment I fear I have become institutionalized and am one with my career and I just can't seem to "See the light" of FIRE.
[ ... ]
I may struggle with the notion of I was an expert in my field and made x....so why would l work for less, rhetorical question of course but catch myself thinking that way now.

I remember a passage from Your Money or Your Life where the author talks about the typical scenario of meeting new people at a party.  After everyone says their name, the next bit of small talk is almost always, "And what do you do?"  The underlying implication is that your job defines who you are.  Certainly that is true for some people, but clearly a lot of people only have their job for a paycheck.  The classic example is maybe the "starving artist" who waits tables: waiting tables is just a way to pay the rent while he develops his craft.  But until he's "made it" as an artist, many people will still think of him as a waiter.

That bit from YMOYL really made an impression on me.  I don't know how I ideally want to introduce myself to people, but I do know I don't want to be defined by my job.  But at the same time, I have some similar concerns as you, largely with the pay.  Frankly I got lucky with the position I have: despite face-punch worthy spending levels, I can still save about 7x my annual expenses.  It's too easy to fall victim to "one more year" syndrome---I think this speaks to your #2 concern.  I.e., what's one more year of work for another seven (or more) years of cushion?

I'm still a few years away before I can confidently call myself FI, so I don't know how I'll handle it when I get there.  At some point I reckon you just have to rip the bandaid off, and dive into the next phase of your life.

At any rate, my ideal situation would be some kind of part-time consulting work whose scheduling was largely on my own terms.  I'd work just enough to cover the bills, so I wouldn't have to draw on my investments.  In that regard, I'd still be saving (dividend/rent/interest re-investment)... basically like MMM with his various side gigs.  The drudgery job was to build up the investment portfolio.  Once you get that, you're FIRE and don't have to worry about the money.  Now it's time for the hobby job.  Of course, not everyone has a hobby that makes money.  But then again, if you're not working a full-time job, you've got room for more hobbies in your life.  Why not try one that does have money-making potential?

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2013, 09:08:54 PM »
Thanks.  I do find it funny that everyone is just responding to my two points and not really interjecting their own fears.

Good point.  ;)

I fear the unexpected.  As an engineer I'm a great planner, but the types of risks that can't go in spreadsheets can make me stress more than I should.  Like Congress rewriting the ACA a year after I retire so subsidies vanish or raising taxes precipitously in the future.  Or something drastic happening in the stock market to the point where a portfolio can't recover in my timeframe. That type of thinking often reinforces issue #2 of the OP. 

I've been thinking more about how to build personal resilience so that I can roll with the punches when the unexpected inevitably does happen, but that mindset takes practice. 
« Last Edit: October 10, 2013, 09:10:32 PM by Tyler »

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2013, 09:46:49 PM »
Quote
I am getting closer everyday and I see the light but not close enough just yet. What I do really doesn't allow for part time - that said I the past few Wednesday's my kids hockey practice was at 5PM and I took him - like taking a half day due to getting from work and to location.  This is NOT something I would have done a couple of years ago, but while I am not FIRE yet I am close enough and as a result do have enough for FU money.

I did exactly this my last few years of working (well, not take off early, but worry about office politics and BS a lot less).  Once you have enough wealth to live for 20+ years without working, you can take a little more risk at your job.  The worst thing they can do is fire you.  Most likely you'll get by just fine, and be able to enjoy life more in the meantime. 


Quote
This is important and ideal - like others have expressed in this forum I live in an area where consumerism reignsin all regards.  Without question those in my neighborhood view us as impoverished, and likely without question we have more wealth than most of those in our neighborhood. That said, most of them are good people who we enjoy being around, it is just difficult to get buy-in for getting together at houses or doing pot-lucks, it happens but the default seems to always be lets go somewhere....we say no a lot, good thing they think we are poor but the friendships aren't as strong because of this.

Makes me glad I live in a below median income neighborhood.  Slumming it is so much more fun than trying to be friends with the Joneses while not wanting to spend like the Joneses. 

dude

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2013, 08:35:36 AM »
Yes and yes.

I'm on track for a government pension like Nords has, but LEO rather than military (though 6 years of military time is included in my LEO pension).  And my "401k" savings rate has been maxed out for at least a decade (+match).  I run numbers over and over, and it looks pretty clear to me that I can pretty easily replace the majority of my current income in retirement.  But still, I wonder, will it be enough?  I can go in 5 years (53); I'm mandatory in 9 (57); but have chosen 55 as the "sweet spot," because I'll be immediately eligible to begin penalty-free withdrawals from my 401k if I retire in the year of my 55th birthday.  Though my plan is to NOT withdraw until I'm at least 60, or even 62 (again, because of the concerns of drawing down what I've worked to hard to save and worrying if it will be enough).  But to retire at 55 and not withdraw 401k funds means I'll have to get some part time work that will net me @$20-25K/year (unless, of course, I evolve into a full-fledged Mustachian, which I currently am not!).  So the "what will I do" question is partially accounted for in response to my "do I have enough" concerns.  But only partially, because I want to do the things I love to do when I'm not working part time (though actually, my plans to part-time climbing involve two of those very things, rock climbing and working out).

One of my primary hobbies/passions is rock climbing.  My current work schedule affords me every other Friday off -- which I would love to spend climbing.  Problem is, it takes two to do what I do (I prefer roped, traditional climbing to bouldering, and free-soloing is out of the question for me), and I find that I most often do not have anyone to play with!  Other things I like to do -- snowboard, workout, surf, martial arts -- I can do alone (to a lesser or greater degree, depending on which), but I enjoy sharing the experiences with friends/partners at least half the time.  And there again, I'm likely to be stuck with the conundrum of being the (relatively) rare early retiree with nobody to play with.

So that's probably the biggest "what will I do" concern.  I figure when I approach actual retirement and the issue becomes more real to me, I'll make efforts to find people via online climbing forums and such who can climb during the week (maybe folks who work third shift, who are also retired, who are students with days off, etc).

But yeah, I do think about these two issues quite a bit (though I try not to get anxious about it  . . . yet).

tooqk4u22

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2013, 08:41:19 AM »
Makes me glad I live in a below median income neighborhood.  Slumming it is so much more fun than trying to be friends with the Joneses while not wanting to spend like the Joneses.

That certainly is better. My neighborhood falls in the median so most people aren't the "Joneses" but they are trying to keep up with them.  My blue collar friends are the best, sure they have spendy habits like on toys and vehicles but they are more modest about their houses and hanging out in the yard/driveway/house.  Guess I need to find more blue collar friends.  Funny thing is that of all my old friends from growing up they are all blue collar, I am the only one that is not but they don't live close by.

tooqk4u22

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2013, 08:45:55 AM »
Thanks.  I do find it funny that everyone is just responding to my two points and not really interjecting their own fears.

Good point.  ;)

I fear the unexpected.  As an engineer I'm a great planner, but the types of risks that can't go in spreadsheets can make me stress more than I should.  Like Congress rewriting the ACA a year after I retire so subsidies vanish or raising taxes precipitously in the future.  Or something drastic happening in the stock market to the point where a portfolio can't recover in my timeframe. That type of thinking often reinforces issue #2 of the OP. 

I've been thinking more about how to build personal resilience so that I can roll with the punches when the unexpected inevitably does happen, but that mindset takes practice.

Yeah, I worry about the things I can't control.....well more like I try to plan/prepare for the things that are unforeseen, along he lines of always be prepared..."chance favors the prepared mind" .....

Probably contributes to the #2 issue I suppose.

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2013, 10:11:20 AM »
That certainly is better. My neighborhood falls in the median so most people aren't the "Joneses" but they are trying to keep up with them.  My blue collar friends are the best, sure they have spendy habits like on toys and vehicles but they are more modest about their houses and hanging out in the yard/driveway/house.  Guess I need to find more blue collar friends.  Funny thing is that of all my old friends from growing up they are all blue collar, I am the only one that is not but they don't live close by.

My neighborhood friends aren't really blue collar.  Most work in some form of tech/IT or creative arts (the latter of which might operate a welder occasionally for artistic purposes) but live here because it is cheap and convenient and low key.  My next door neighbor is a nurse anesthetist for example. 

I find these neighborhood friends that are more focused on living a genuine life than consuming more stuff tend to be up for things like hanging out at the park (we have kids), dollar night at the skating rink, free cultural events at the State university, or lunch/dinner parties.  They won't turn their noses up if I serve pizza, salad, and domestic macrobrew. 


Nords

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2013, 10:44:08 AM »
But to retire at 55 and not withdraw 401k funds means I'll have to get some part time work that will net me @$20-25K/year (unless, of course, I evolve into a full-fledged Mustachian, which I currently am not!).  So the "what will I do" question is partially accounted for in response to my "do I have enough" concerns.  But only partially, because I want to do the things I love to do when I'm not working part time (though actually, my plans to part-time climbing involve two of those very things, rock climbing and working out).
I think a big part of the problem is that working makes it difficult to juice your creativity to come up with the retirement gig that will generate that income, but once you're retired you'll see dozens of financial opportunities.  When I retired I had no idea that I'd be a writer, and my old XOs are still wondering why they could never benefit from my undiscovered talent.

So that's probably the biggest "what will I do" concern.  I figure when I approach actual retirement and the issue becomes more real to me, I'll make efforts to find people via online climbing forums and such who can climb during the week (maybe folks who work third shift, who are also retired, who are students with days off, etc).
Darrow Kirkpatrick of CanIRetireYet.com is a rock climber who may have solved that problem for you.  In any case it'd make a great blog post.

But yeah, I do think about these two issues quite a bit (though I try not to get anxious about it  . . . yet).
There will be stress in retirement, however it's the good kind.

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2013, 12:07:19 PM »
Another random thought.  Is it possible that some of these fears stem from not having fully embraced the MMM philosophy?

In particular, the expenses and optimism.  On the expenses part, the lower they are, the less you have to draw out of your portfolio.  Likewise, as expenses go down, it gets easier to cover them with increasingly less work (i.e. hobby job).  For the sake of argument, consider if your expenses were only $1000/year.  You could work part time at minimum wage and cover that---only in a total economic collapse or Mad Max scenario would that be a problem.  But say your expenses are $200k/year against a $1mm/year net income: you're still saving 80%, and can replicate $200k/year in passive income pretty quickly... but after you retire, I predict that there are very few $200k/year "hobby jobs".

And I think the "outrageous optimism" part makes up for all the "yeah, but, what if" questions that keep us doubting.  In other words, your optimistic attitude needs to be stronger than your lingering fears.  Clearly, it shouldn't go so far as to be impractical or throw all caution to the wind, but I think MMM himself has an attitude of, "Yeah, things certainly can and will get rocky from time to time, but I'm creative, hard-working and self-reliant, so bring it on, I can conquer it."

Said another way, what if you worry that, post-FIRE, you "lapse" back into a lifestyle that's more consumer and less MMM?

GuitarStv

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2013, 12:08:43 PM »
 . . . mostly the pain of burning I guess, but smoke inhalation is also up there.

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2013, 12:25:56 PM »
FIRE is still a long ways away, but I always think that I'll be worried about "One More Year" syndrome.  I'm not the kind of guy that would stick around because he loves his job (haven't found a job like that yet), but I'd be worried about a cushion.   I'm particularly worried about the USA's woefully inadequate ways of dealing with catastrophic health issues.  If I FIRE at 45 and either my wife or I gets cancer in our 50s, are we screwed? Both my parents have bodies that are falling apart in their 50s and 60s... what if I need a spinal fusion and a shoulder surgery and a hip replacement? Will we go broke?

On "what will I do?"... I have no doubt that I'll find plenty to do.  Just the thought in the back of my mind on weekends of "Crap... I only have 48hrs to get all these chores done, then I can't do much for the rest of the week" drives me insane.  Without the strict deadline of time, I feel like I'd love it.   I also have semi-aspirations of starting a small business after FIRE... we'll see :)

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2013, 01:31:04 PM »
One More Year gets pretty compelling in the later years because the pension lump sum increases, year-on-year, can be nearly as large as salary.  My pension lump sum increases anywhere from 10-35% per year right up to age 59.

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #42 on: October 11, 2013, 01:40:55 PM »
Like bo_knows, I'm mostly concerned about long term health and healthcare.  But I figure if my wife or I develop a serious illness, we probably won't be traveling that much, so most of the money allocated towards travel would be able to be shifted towards healthcare.  Plus, the ACA made huge strides with not allowing insurance companies to drop you as soon as you need their coverage.

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #43 on: October 11, 2013, 07:42:59 PM »
One More Year gets pretty compelling in the later years because the pension lump sum increases, year-on-year, can be nearly as large as salary.  My pension lump sum increases anywhere from 10-35% per year right up to age 59.
I've watched a number of "Just One More Year" syndrome cases over the last decade, and the typical tipping point to retirement is a medical crisis-- either the employee or a family member.

At my retirement physical, my blood pressure was 140/85 with the usual dire warnings about BP monitoring and medication.  A couple years after retirement it had dropped to 110/60. 

So how will your blood pressure be right up to age 59:  10-35%/year higher or 10-35%/year lower?

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2013, 07:46:46 PM »
Like bo_knows, I'm mostly concerned about long term health and healthcare.  But I figure if my wife or I develop a serious illness, we probably won't be traveling that much, so most of the money allocated towards travel would be able to be shifted towards healthcare.  Plus, the ACA made huge strides with not allowing insurance companies to drop you as soon as you need their coverage.

You got it.  Obamacare will make retiring earlier much easier since you know you can get health insurance at some price, with some standard set of benefits. When I started planning for ER years ago, health care was the big unknown.  I figured a serious illness might mean we couldn't get insurance at some point, and might require going back to work if we needed health care insurance.  Those worries are gone.  Now you only have to worry about paying for the insurance and meeting deductibles and paying copays.

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #45 on: October 11, 2013, 07:48:53 PM »
At my retirement physical, my blood pressure was 140/85 with the usual dire warnings about BP monitoring and medication.  A couple years after retirement it had dropped to 110/60. 

I went in for a checkup my first week after retiring (while employer health insurance was still active).  BP down to 120/70 from 130/88 or higher in previous visits.  Could it be the reduction in stress?  :)

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #46 on: October 11, 2013, 08:29:13 PM »
At my retirement physical, my blood pressure was 140/85 with the usual dire warnings about BP monitoring and medication.  A couple years after retirement it had dropped to 110/60. 
I went in for a checkup my first week after retiring (while employer health insurance was still active).  BP down to 120/70 from 130/88 or higher in previous visits.  Could it be the reduction in stress?  :)
I think so.  I drink coffee to help keep my blood pressure in triple digits so that I don't black out when I pop up on my longboard...

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2013, 07:38:24 AM »
Another random thought.  Is it possible that some of these fears stem from not having fully embraced the MMM philosophy?

In particular, the expenses and optimism.  On the expenses part, the lower they are, the less you have to draw out of your portfolio.  Likewise, as expenses go down, it gets easier to cover them with increasingly less work (i.e. hobby job).  For the sake of argument, consider if your expenses were only $1000/year.  You could work part time at minimum wage and cover that---only in a total economic collapse or Mad Max scenario would that be a problem.  But say your expenses are $200k/year against a $1mm/year net income: you're still saving 80%, and can replicate $200k/year in passive income pretty quickly... but after you retire, I predict that there are very few $200k/year "hobby jobs".

And I think the "outrageous optimism" part makes up for all the "yeah, but, what if" questions that keep us doubting.  In other words, your optimistic attitude needs to be stronger than your lingering fears.  Clearly, it shouldn't go so far as to be impractical or throw all caution to the wind, but I think MMM himself has an attitude of, "Yeah, things certainly can and will get rocky from time to time, but I'm creative, hard-working and self-reliant, so bring it on, I can conquer it.

Said another way, what if you worry that, post-FIRE, you "lapse" back into a lifestyle that's more consumer and less MMM?

I actually take a different view somewhat.  Lets say my FIRE number is $50K per year but that number includes basic living, health care and all kinds of luxury (travel, nice meals, expensive activities for the kids like hockey, booze, etc.).  Because of this I am "optimistic" that I would have plenty of cushion built in if needed, but not desired, and I have "optimism" about my ability to work in some capacity, and plan to, to generate income I probably don't need.

Where as if I completely embraced the MMM expense/SWR view then my expenses would be bare bones and therefore I would FIRE with a smaller nut, but I would have no cushion, or limited cushion, if something changed. It is much harder to reduce expenses if they represent basic needs.  Although I would still have the ability to work.


SnackDog

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #48 on: October 12, 2013, 07:48:31 AM »
Another random thought.  Is it possible that some of these fears stem from not having fully embraced the MMM philosophy?

In particular, the expenses and optimism.  On the expenses part, the lower they are, the less you have to draw out of your portfolio.  Likewise, as expenses go down, it gets easier to cover them with increasingly less work (i.e. hobby job).  For the sake of argument, consider if your expenses were only $1000/year.  You could work part time at minimum wage and cover that---only in a total economic collapse or Mad Max scenario would that be a problem.  But say your expenses are $200k/year against a $1mm/year net income: you're still saving 80%, and can replicate $200k/year in passive income pretty quickly... but after you retire, I predict that there are very few $200k/year "hobby jobs".

And I think the "outrageous optimism" part makes up for all the "yeah, but, what if" questions that keep us doubting.  In other words, your optimistic attitude needs to be stronger than your lingering fears.  Clearly, it shouldn't go so far as to be impractical or throw all caution to the wind, but I think MMM himself has an attitude of, "Yeah, things certainly can and will get rocky from time to time, but I'm creative, hard-working and self-reliant, so bring it on, I can conquer it."

Said another way, what if you worry that, post-FIRE, you "lapse" back into a lifestyle that's more consumer and less MMM?

Au contraire, if you have $1MM net income it is entirely possibly you could get a "hobby job" on a corporate board or two.  I know people who retired from fairly mid level corporate jobs earning a bit under $1MM (gross) and were able to land a couple corp board gigs.  Those are nice because travel to the board meetings is normally gratis (sometimes on corp aircraft) and spouses can be brought so your travel budget is covered if the board meetings are in nice places.

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Re: FIRE Fears?
« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2013, 08:23:07 AM »
Nords wrote:

Darrow Kirkpatrick of CanIRetireYet.com is a rock climber who may have solved that problem for you.  In any case it'd make a great blog post.


Thanks man, will definitely check that out!