Author Topic: FIRE bloggers fizzling  (Read 15356 times)

EscapeVelocity2020

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5238
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Houston
    • EscapeVelocity2020
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #50 on: June 27, 2024, 09:25:49 AM »
There's also the pesky fact that blogging revenue has fallen off a cliff.  For the same amount of work, bloggers have been making a fraction of what they used to make.  RetireBy40 made more money per hour on side hustles like UberEats and electric scooter charging, while having more fun and doing the charging hustle with his son...  Those that blog just for blogging sake are still around, just posting less and more sporadically.

tj

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2397
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Orange County CA
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #51 on: June 27, 2024, 09:31:15 AM »
There's also the pesky fact that blogging revenue has fallen off a cliff.  For the same amount of work, bloggers have been making a fraction of what they used to make.  RetireBy40 made more money per hour on side hustles like UberEats and electric scooter charging, while having more fun and doing the charging hustle with his son...  Those that blog just for blogging sake are still around, just posting less and more sporadically.

Indeed. There's a whole lot less of shameless shilling Bluehost because everyone should start a blog. 😁

Alternatepriorities

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1737
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Alaska
  • Engineer, explorer, investor
    • Alternate Priorities
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #52 on: June 27, 2024, 09:39:41 AM »
I don't know if it impacts those who wrote the FIRE blogs the same way, but when I unplugged from my computer to RE my post rate on this forum dropped significantly, especially during the summer months. My own blog which was mostly travel photos and stories died of neglect even before that, perhaps partly because engaging with folks here was more interesting than writing for a larger audience. Back when it was still active I considered writing about FIRE, but realized I had very little new to say on the general topic and I write slowly. Instead I've focused my efforts on local friends to some success.

I'm not active on any other forums and barely active on any form of social media anymore. Even for this forum I usually need a reason to be sitting at my computer before I start looking at the unread posts. It seems pretty clear from response times on the weekend vs the weekdays that many others are the same. As much as I enjoy reading new ideas here, the money question is largely solved and the mountains are calling... Unless of course I sit down to do something else, then the forum is calling...


Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 20638
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #53 on: June 27, 2024, 09:42:15 AM »
There's also the pesky fact that blogging revenue has fallen off a cliff.  For the same amount of work, bloggers have been making a fraction of what they used to make.  RetireBy40 made more money per hour on side hustles like UberEats and electric scooter charging, while having more fun and doing the charging hustle with his son...  Those that blog just for blogging sake are still around, just posting less and more sporadically.

That's the point I've been making from the beginning. No one blogs anymore. That's not where the audiences are.

aloevera1

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 310
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #54 on: June 27, 2024, 09:49:25 AM »
I found that over time blogs became overloaded with monetization. It's like someone is constantly trying to sell you shit. There are all the ad banners (yay my adblock) but also affiliate links, sneaky recommendations, paid posts, etc. etc.

I never really got on board with blogging as a way of making money. I enjoyed reading blogs when there were written as a passion project. However, as a reader I find the idea of blog monetization a bit off putting. I understand why people want to do it, I just don't really want to read the product. So, I don't.

I gained most of my FIRE knowledge on this forum and via links people directly referenced here.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 18174
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2024, 10:04:42 AM »
I found that over time blogs became overloaded with monetization. It's like someone is constantly trying to sell you shit. There are all the ad banners (yay my adblock) but also affiliate links, sneaky recommendations, paid posts, etc. etc.

I never really got on board with blogging as a way of making money. I enjoyed reading blogs when there were written as a passion project. However, as a reader I find the idea of blog monetization a bit off putting. I understand why people want to do it, I just don't really want to read the product. So, I don't.

I gained most of my FIRE
 knowledge on this forum and via links people directly referenced here.
That’s one of the things I’ve always liked about this forum - it’s one of the most poorly monetized blogs with (relatively) high traffic out there. Compare it to what the Motley Fool became, or what happened when other FIRE bloggers either sold off or decided to maximize clicks (eg FS) over integrity/reality.

The biggest complaint with Pete as a blogger is that he got bored with it and largely stopped posting. Oh, and was arrested by the IRP over and over.

Alternatepriorities

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1737
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Alaska
  • Engineer, explorer, investor
    • Alternate Priorities
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2024, 03:13:46 PM »
I found that over time blogs became overloaded with monetization. It's like someone is constantly trying to sell you shit. There are all the ad banners (yay my adblock) but also affiliate links, sneaky recommendations, paid posts, etc. etc.

I never really got on board with blogging as a way of making money. I enjoyed reading blogs when there were written as a passion project. However, as a reader I find the idea of blog monetization a bit off putting. I understand why people want to do it, I just don't really want to read the product. So, I don't.

I gained most of my FIRE
 knowledge on this forum and via links people directly referenced here.
That’s one of the things I’ve always liked about this forum - it’s one of the most poorly monetized blogs with (relatively) high traffic out there. Compare it to what the Motley Fool became, or what happened when other FIRE bloggers either sold off or decided to maximize clicks (eg FS) over integrity/reality.

The biggest complaint with Pete as a blogger is that he got bored with it and largely stopped posting. Oh, and was arrested by the IRP over and over.

It's hard to know since he hasn't done a post on it in years, but I do hope the forum and archived post continue to drive enough traffic to keep the site alive. It occurred to me the other day that all of this could just go away without much warning. Bigger sites have disappeared before and I very much appreciate that Pete has stuck to his values rather than trying to maximize revenue.

tj

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2397
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Orange County CA
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2024, 03:15:19 PM »
I found that over time blogs became overloaded with monetization. It's like someone is constantly trying to sell you shit. There are all the ad banners (yay my adblock) but also affiliate links, sneaky recommendations, paid posts, etc. etc.

I never really got on board with blogging as a way of making money. I enjoyed reading blogs when there were written as a passion project. However, as a reader I find the idea of blog monetization a bit off putting. I understand why people want to do it, I just don't really want to read the product. So, I don't.

I gained most of my FIRE
 knowledge on this forum and via links people directly referenced here.
That’s one of the things I’ve always liked about this forum - it’s one of the most poorly monetized blogs with (relatively) high traffic out there. Compare it to what the Motley Fool became, or what happened when other FIRE bloggers either sold off or decided to maximize clicks (eg FS) over integrity/reality.

The biggest complaint with Pete as a blogger is that he got bored with it and largely stopped posting. Oh, and was arrested by the IRP over and over.

It's hard to know since he hasn't done a post on it in years, but I do hope the forum and archived post continue to drive enough traffic to keep the site alive. It occurred to me the other day that all of this could just go away without much warning. Bigger sites have disappeared before and I very much appreciate that Pete has stuck to his values rather than trying to maximize revenue.

Yep. Thankfully the new owners of early-retirement.org kept the forum around. RockstarFinance disappeared overnight one day.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 18174
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #58 on: June 27, 2024, 03:16:11 PM »
We do have some dedicated moderators who have been here since the very beginning and continue to keep things running fairly smoothly. Thanks @arebelspy   @FrugalToque !

FrugalToque

  • Administrator
  • Pencil Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 922
  • Location: Canada
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #59 on: July 07, 2024, 05:47:23 AM »
We do have some dedicated moderators who have been here since the very beginning and continue to keep things running fairly smoothly. Thanks @arebelspy   @FrugalToque !
You're welcome.
Most of my job at this point is:
a) deleting spammers
b) banning bigots of various types who spend 90%-100% of their time in Off-Topic

clarkfan1979

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3556
  • Age: 45
  • Location: Pueblo West, CO
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #60 on: July 07, 2024, 11:48:01 AM »
This is a great thread with many high value comments. I'm just going to echo some of the things that were said earlier and then put my own personal twist at the end.

I agree that blogs are not popular with younger people and will therefore die off slowly. However, just because the blog traffic is dying off, it doesn't mean the principles are not alive within people's lives. I think incorporating MMM principles were at one time new and exciting. Going from living paycheck to paycheck to having a 30% savings rate within 6 months is super exciting. However, once you have a 30% savings rate for 10 years, it gets kind of boring. The weird part is that when you have a 30% savings rate for 10 years, you are going to accumulate wealth. The wealth part becomes less exciting, but that person now has the freedom to pursue more of their own personal interests, instead of of just trying to survive. Pursuing the personal interests is exciting, which is a product of MMM principles. However, the MMM principles themselves are now well known, boring and normal to oneself.

Because of 7 years of grad school, I was always frugal during most of my adult life. In 2011, I got my first job teaching college full-time with a base salary of 40K. Now this didn't make me rich, I was now in a position in which I had "extra money". If I didn't spend all of that "extra money" the world was telling me that something was wrong with me. In February 2014, MMM gave me permission to save and invest my "extra" and be proud of it and not ashamed. He validated my frugal habits, which was a life changer.

By cutting back on the waste, my wife quit her toxic full-time job and transitioned into part-time work by May 2015, only 14 months after discovering the MMM blog. In 2015 we were working less hours than 2011, but still managed to save more money in 2015 than 2011. From 2011 to 2014, our net worth went from zero to 150K, both working full-time. From 2014 to 2024, we went from 150K to 1650K, with my wife working part-time 2015 to 2024.

I really don't try to preach MMM principles because that never works. I just try to live a happy life and if people ask me questions, I can answer them with MMM principles. I really don't like the victim mentality that exists in popular media right now, especially when those people have financed new cars and so much waste in their budget. If anyone ever hints at me being an "evil rich person", I immediately reference my car. It cost me $2750 in January 2020. Insurance is $40/month and registration is $65/year. The person who is usually complaining is driving a 40K financed SUV, with insurance of $150/month and registration around $500/year. When people say that cars are too expensive post pandemic, I tell them that my mechanic of 4 years that I trust was selling a 2007 Nissan Versa hatchback with 150K miles for $3,000 for a client in June 2024. Do you want his number? The car might still be available. If I needed a car, I would totally buy it.

I also agree that this forum has shifted to more "Fat Fire", myself included. My wife and I went to Gibson's steakhouse in Chicago two weeks ago for my 45th birthday and it was $325 with tip. The portions were big and we got a second dinner out of it with left overs. I'm originally from the suburbs of Chicago and never been to a Chicago steakhouse. I'm glad we did it, but we probably won't do it again. Might go back for a $100 lunch. While a $325 dinner might deserve a face punch, I feel like it's much more acceptable to do it at age 45 with a net worth of 1650K vs. age 35 with a net worth of 150K.   


 


Chris Pascale

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1478
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #61 on: July 08, 2024, 04:03:43 PM »
Makes sense. I recently sent Grumpus an audio clip of me reading a piece I wrote a few years back, and he may or may not get around to making a video out of it.

Optimal Living Daily won't even post written work anymore, and are now releasing "the best blogs narrated for your daily." What's interesting about that is that if you go to their YouTube channel, you have to go back more than 2 weeks to find something that even had 100 views - https://www.youtube.com/@OptimalLivingDaily/videos. [I think] this means that even though their posts are typically getting 10-20 views, the audios are reaching more people.

VanillaGorilla

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 240
  • Location: CA
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #62 on: July 08, 2024, 10:00:40 PM »
I'm sad about blogs disappearing. I remember reading a lot of them thinking I would never reach such astronomical wealth. Well, a few years later, I did. Super inspiring.

I really liked Planting Our Pennies - I think. They did a quarterly portfolio update. I'd love to know what they're doing now.

Waffles on Wednesday was also great.

Physician on Fire was great before it was sold (I think?) - it's now managed poorly and is all but unreadable.

FireLane

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1681
  • Age: 43
  • Location: NYC
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #63 on: July 09, 2024, 07:27:55 AM »
Physician on Fire was great before it was sold (I think?) - it's now managed poorly and is all but unreadable.

I used to read Physician on FIRE, but it got overwhelmed with ads, popups, SEO spam articles and other clutter to the point where it's unreadable. I didn't realize it had been sold, but yep, sure enough:

https://www.physicianonfire.com/retired-again/

It seems like the curse of FIRE blogs. They eventually grow successful enough to be valuable, then their owners sell them and they degenerate into ad-cluttered SEO bait.

I appreciate MMM for holding out, especially since his blog is doubtless the most valuable one out there. If he ever does sell, I don't doubt this forum will shut down first of all.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 18174
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #64 on: July 09, 2024, 08:01:05 AM »
Physician on Fire was great before it was sold (I think?) - it's now managed poorly and is all but unreadable.

I used to read Physician on FIRE, but it got overwhelmed with ads, popups, SEO spam articles and other clutter to the point where it's unreadable. I didn't realize it had been sold, but yep, sure enough:

https://www.physicianonfire.com/retired-again/

It seems like the curse of FIRE blogs. They eventually grow successful enough to be valuable, then their owners sell them and they degenerate into ad-cluttered SEO bait.

I appreciate MMM for holding out, especially since his blog is doubtless the most valuable one out there. If he ever does sell, I don't doubt this forum will shut down first of all.

I hate when sites I previously loved devolve into what you describe, but I find it hard to fault the original owner(s).  It's hard to take an asset you've worked years to build into something valuable and then not sell it to realize its full value.

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2131
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #65 on: July 09, 2024, 10:09:13 AM »
I have lurked here about 3 years and have been following the FIRE movement in general.  It appears to me that the whole group of "original" FIRE bloggers and podcasters are super-wealthy now and have moved up Maslow's hierarchy on needs to the point that they have nothing to say to folks still in the grind.  In the last year a lot of both blog content and podcast content has been about "how to spend more money."  That would have gotten a punch in the face 5-7 years ago.  People like 1500 Days are pushing $5MM in the bank now and the content shows. MMM's original stash was like $800K.

I totally understand this point. But FWIW, I've found a lot of MMM's recent content to be pretty useful. He's fabulously rich. Richer than he probably ever imagined when he started the blog. In some sense, yes, that means he has less to say to people on the ground level. But it a lot of ways, what he says is very relatable to me.

I'm not as rich as he is. I'm not FIRE. But I did cross a million dollar NW in my early 30s. I probably never pictured that happening when I was 22. I have kids now. And it turns out that what I want for them is a pretty median American youth experience, with a few anti-consumerist tweaks. I want them to grow up going to good American schools with lots of great extra curriculars and a stable peer group. Basically, I just want to swap out the McDonalds, fancy cars, and smart phones for lots of outdoor time, music, and the occasional really cool(tm) travel experience that most parents wouldn't do.

All this means that I'm probably working until my kids are out of high school anyway. It just makes sense. My vision of a good upbringing for them involves dad breadwinning for most of it.

So how do I adjust? I'm still a frugal guy. I still get little utility out of eating out or driving fancy cars. Continuing at current savings rates means that when my kids are out of the house, I'll probably have way too much money. So how does a frugal guy go about spending the money that he'll incidentally be accruing? That seems to be MMM's big exploration. And I enjoy reading about it.

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2131
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #66 on: July 09, 2024, 10:24:53 AM »
There's also the pesky fact that blogging revenue has fallen off a cliff.  For the same amount of work, bloggers have been making a fraction of what they used to make.  RetireBy40 made more money per hour on side hustles like UberEats and electric scooter charging, while having more fun and doing the charging hustle with his son...  Those that blog just for blogging sake are still around, just posting less and more sporadically.

That's the point I've been making from the beginning. No one blogs anymore. That's not where the audiences are.

There's substack! That seems to be doing well.

Though i have to admit, as a subscriber to a few substacks, I've been a little disappointed by the whole thing. I just ended up reading a bunch of really smart and highly educated people who for some reason, turned their talents into, "Did you see what some rando on Twitter said to some other rando on Twitter?". Bummer

It's a real shame, the decline of blogs, that is. The Internet lit me up as a kid. It was this great place where people with interesting ideas and the ability to write longform, but who didn't have access to traditional publishing channels, could put stuff out there. I'm sure that stuff is still out there, but a shocking amount of the Internet today is just SEO garbage. So I'm back to reading books again. The publishing system is as elitist as ever, but if someone took the time to write a few hundred pages, and a publisher took the time to edit and distribute it, that probably says something about the quality.

The plus side is that my kids look at me on my kindle and it reads to them as "Dad is reading a book." rather than "Dad is using screen time."

tj

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2397
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Orange County CA
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #67 on: July 09, 2024, 11:43:29 AM »
Substack is weird to me. Writers can't make money through affiliate marketing on their blogs anymore, so people are going to subscribe to their substack instead? Admittedly I have yet to pay for one and I unsubscribed from 1 former PF blogger who was really pushy about moving stuff behind the paywall.

MMMarbleheader

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 322
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #68 on: July 09, 2024, 12:11:56 PM »
Substack is weird to me. Writers can't make money through affiliate marketing on their blogs anymore, so people are going to subscribe to their substack instead? Admittedly I have yet to pay for one and I unsubscribed from 1 former PF blogger who was really pushy about moving stuff behind the paywall.

To keep my sanity until November I subscribed to Nate Silver's. So far so good since I like most of his writing on other topics, not just politics.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8346
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #69 on: July 09, 2024, 01:16:09 PM »
... a shocking amount of the Internet today is just SEO garbage. So I'm back to reading books again. The publishing system is as elitist as ever, but if someone took the time to write a few hundred pages, and a publisher took the time to edit and distribute it, that probably says something about the quality.
This is the realization a few people are just now getting, but which will be common sense in maybe 10 years: The characteristics of information in a medium tend to be shaped by the financial costs and incentives of that medium. In a sense this insight is basic communications theory, but gen X and millenials in particular tend to treat all online sources and formats as equally valid. That's why we still share "news" from places like Meta and Xitter, or various doomer/shill videos from YT.

Maybe it's a good thing people are losing their life savings to cryptos and meme stocks shilled on Reddit, YT, and TT, or buying $1,000 stock picking courses from finfluencers who show off rented ferraris, mansions, and models. It's the necessary generational experience for developing critical thinking skills about one's information diet, so that we don't end up like the boomers with their fox news.

For evidence of the shifting tide and backlash against finfluencers, check out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT0KW--PWUI

So in conclusion, blogs could come back if they begin to be perceived as more legitimate and less influenced by ads. You can't get rich blogging, and there's authenticity in that situation.

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2131
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #70 on: July 09, 2024, 04:10:05 PM »
Substack is weird to me. Writers can't make money through affiliate marketing on their blogs anymore, so people are going to subscribe to their substack instead? Admittedly I have yet to pay for one and I unsubscribed from 1 former PF blogger who was really pushy about moving stuff behind the paywall.

While I’m not 100% sold on the content I’ve found on Substack, I will say that reading Substack or a website on a competing platform, like Lede, is 10,000 times more pleasant than using the garden variety internet.

Virtually any website that *isn’t* behind a paywall is unreadable these days. Ads over ads over ads. “Click here to read the rest of the article”, which is like, an insane inversion. Etc. etc.

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2131
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #71 on: July 09, 2024, 04:10:57 PM »
Substack is weird to me. Writers can't make money through affiliate marketing on their blogs anymore, so people are going to subscribe to their substack instead? Admittedly I have yet to pay for one and I unsubscribed from 1 former PF blogger who was really pushy about moving stuff behind the paywall.

To keep my sanity until November I subscribed to Nate Silver's. So far so good since I like most of his writing on other topics, not just politics.


I was subscribed to Nate, but he’s a little too Twitterbrained for me as of late. I’m very much looking forward to his next book, though.

twinstudy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 605
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #72 on: July 11, 2024, 01:09:43 AM »
... a shocking amount of the Internet today is just SEO garbage. So I'm back to reading books again. The publishing system is as elitist as ever, but if someone took the time to write a few hundred pages, and a publisher took the time to edit and distribute it, that probably says something about the quality.
This is the realization a few people are just now getting, but which will be common sense in maybe 10 years: The characteristics of information in a medium tend to be shaped by the financial costs and incentives of that medium. In a sense this insight is basic communications theory, but gen X and millenials in particular tend to treat all online sources and formats as equally valid. That's why we still share "news" from places like Meta and Xitter, or various doomer/shill videos from YT.

Maybe it's a good thing people are losing their life savings to cryptos and meme stocks shilled on Reddit, YT, and TT, or buying $1,000 stock picking courses from finfluencers who show off rented ferraris, mansions, and models. It's the necessary generational experience for developing critical thinking skills about one's information diet, so that we don't end up like the boomers with their fox news.

For evidence of the shifting tide and backlash against finfluencers, check out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT0KW--PWUI

So in conclusion, blogs could come back if they begin to be perceived as more legitimate and less influenced by ads. You can't get rich blogging, and there's authenticity in that situation.

Most influencers aren't rich either, and I'm surprised there's not already more backlash: in addition to being rather uncouth, it's pretty obvious that all but the top 0.01% of influencers are actually poor people trying to look rich. 'Hustle culture' is pretty aggressively deadbeat, and it's surprising more people don't see it.

Anyone in his or her 20s can go into debt and buy a LV bag and then pretend to be an influencer. It's an aggressively lower-middle-class thing to do/aspire to.

GilesMM

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2553
  • Location: PNW
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #73 on: July 11, 2024, 03:19:38 AM »
I have lurked here about 3 years and have been following the FIRE movement in general.  It appears to me that the whole group of "original" FIRE bloggers and podcasters are super-wealthy now and have moved up Maslow's hierarchy on needs to the point that they have nothing to say to folks still in the grind.  In the last year a lot of both blog content and podcast content has been about "how to spend more money."  That would have gotten a punch in the face 5-7 years ago.  People like 1500 Days are pushing $5MM in the bank now and the content shows. MMM's original stash was like $800K.

I totally understand this point. But FWIW, I've found a lot of MMM's recent content to be pretty useful. He's fabulously rich. Richer than he probably ever imagined when he started the blog. In some sense, yes, that means he has less to say to people on the ground level. But it a lot of ways, what he says is very relatable to me.

...


Did he finally come clean on his finances?

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 20638
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #74 on: July 11, 2024, 03:36:06 AM »
... a shocking amount of the Internet today is just SEO garbage. So I'm back to reading books again. The publishing system is as elitist as ever, but if someone took the time to write a few hundred pages, and a publisher took the time to edit and distribute it, that probably says something about the quality.
This is the realization a few people are just now getting, but which will be common sense in maybe 10 years: The characteristics of information in a medium tend to be shaped by the financial costs and incentives of that medium. In a sense this insight is basic communications theory, but gen X and millenials in particular tend to treat all online sources and formats as equally valid. That's why we still share "news" from places like Meta and Xitter, or various doomer/shill videos from YT.

Maybe it's a good thing people are losing their life savings to cryptos and meme stocks shilled on Reddit, YT, and TT, or buying $1,000 stock picking courses from finfluencers who show off rented ferraris, mansions, and models. It's the necessary generational experience for developing critical thinking skills about one's information diet, so that we don't end up like the boomers with their fox news.

For evidence of the shifting tide and backlash against finfluencers, check out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT0KW--PWUI

So in conclusion, blogs could come back if they begin to be perceived as more legitimate and less influenced by ads. You can't get rich blogging, and there's authenticity in that situation.

Most influencers aren't rich either, and I'm surprised there's not already more backlash: in addition to being rather uncouth, it's pretty obvious that all but the top 0.01% of influencers are actually poor people trying to look rich. 'Hustle culture' is pretty aggressively deadbeat, and it's surprising more people don't see it.

Anyone in his or her 20s can go into debt and buy a LV bag and then pretend to be an influencer. It's an aggressively lower-middle-class thing to do/aspire to.

Influencer is a pretty broad term though.

A client of mine is a fairly well known accessibility travel influencer.

I spend a good chunk of time exploring mental health influencer content to understand what my clients are coming to session with.

Musicians are largely influencers now too. 

Take any topic that would have been covered by bloggers years ago and they're now influencers on Instagram and TikTok.

I don't think it's reasonable to limit the concept of "influencer" to aggressively lower middle class folks trying to look rich.

nereo

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 18174
  • Location: Just south of Canada
    • Here's how you can support science today:
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #75 on: July 11, 2024, 05:33:10 AM »
... a shocking amount of the Internet today is just SEO garbage. So I'm back to reading books again. The publishing system is as elitist as ever, but if someone took the time to write a few hundred pages, and a publisher took the time to edit and distribute it, that probably says something about the quality.
This is the realization a few people are just now getting, but which will be common sense in maybe 10 years: The characteristics of information in a medium tend to be shaped by the financial costs and incentives of that medium. In a sense this insight is basic communications theory, but gen X and millenials in particular tend to treat all online sources and formats as equally valid. That's why we still share "news" from places like Meta and Xitter, or various doomer/shill videos from YT.

Maybe it's a good thing people are losing their life savings to cryptos and meme stocks shilled on Reddit, YT, and TT, or buying $1,000 stock picking courses from finfluencers who show off rented ferraris, mansions, and models. It's the necessary generational experience for developing critical thinking skills about one's information diet, so that we don't end up like the boomers with their fox news.

For evidence of the shifting tide and backlash against finfluencers, check out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT0KW--PWUI

So in conclusion, blogs could come back if they begin to be perceived as more legitimate and less influenced by ads. You can't get rich blogging, and there's authenticity in that situation.

Most influencers aren't rich either, and I'm surprised there's not already more backlash: in addition to being rather uncouth, it's pretty obvious that all but the top 0.01% of influencers are actually poor people trying to look rich. 'Hustle culture' is pretty aggressively deadbeat, and it's surprising more people don't see it.

Anyone in his or her 20s can go into debt and buy a LV bag and then pretend to be an influencer. It's an aggressively lower-middle-class thing to do/aspire to.

I too used to have an outwardly negative view of “influencers” which was driven by a very narrow set of influencers that I just didn’t like. Then I started working with a few mission driven teams with marketing experience and it’s made me realize the whole category of “influencer” is so much more diverse than I realized, and in many ways they can be highly skilled, well trained and even important to engage with.

In a broad sense an “influencer” is just an independent contractor (though increasingly they can be part of a small corporation)that helps with marketing in some fashion. A lot of what these influencers do are the same basic jobs that companies have been doing for decades, though they now spend most of their effort where people spent their time (increasingly only)

I also don’t know how you came up with the 0.01% figure but IME that’s wildly wrong, and gets into the weeds of who we label poor and what level of effort (eg # hours/quarter) it takes to be considered a bonanfide “influencer”. Yes, there’s a large group that gets extremely little in compensation (and much of it “in-kind”), but most of these people wouldn’t even consider themselves to be more than occasional influencers, if they use that term at all. And again this is nothing new… the “get three people to sign up and your membership is free!” has been around for ages, yet now that falls under the influencer label. Most of these are transient, part time folks like students or otherwise employed who just want free product or services with a company they already patronize.

But the majority of people who can say they are full-time influencers tend to be organized AF, and certainly not what I’d consider poor. Good ones are paradoxically less noticeable than the in-your-face posters, and tend to be educated and connected.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 20638
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #76 on: July 11, 2024, 06:08:49 AM »
... a shocking amount of the Internet today is just SEO garbage. So I'm back to reading books again. The publishing system is as elitist as ever, but if someone took the time to write a few hundred pages, and a publisher took the time to edit and distribute it, that probably says something about the quality.
This is the realization a few people are just now getting, but which will be common sense in maybe 10 years: The characteristics of information in a medium tend to be shaped by the financial costs and incentives of that medium. In a sense this insight is basic communications theory, but gen X and millenials in particular tend to treat all online sources and formats as equally valid. That's why we still share "news" from places like Meta and Xitter, or various doomer/shill videos from YT.

Maybe it's a good thing people are losing their life savings to cryptos and meme stocks shilled on Reddit, YT, and TT, or buying $1,000 stock picking courses from finfluencers who show off rented ferraris, mansions, and models. It's the necessary generational experience for developing critical thinking skills about one's information diet, so that we don't end up like the boomers with their fox news.

For evidence of the shifting tide and backlash against finfluencers, check out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT0KW--PWUI

So in conclusion, blogs could come back if they begin to be perceived as more legitimate and less influenced by ads. You can't get rich blogging, and there's authenticity in that situation.

Most influencers aren't rich either, and I'm surprised there's not already more backlash: in addition to being rather uncouth, it's pretty obvious that all but the top 0.01% of influencers are actually poor people trying to look rich. 'Hustle culture' is pretty aggressively deadbeat, and it's surprising more people don't see it.

Anyone in his or her 20s can go into debt and buy a LV bag and then pretend to be an influencer. It's an aggressively lower-middle-class thing to do/aspire to.

I too used to have an outwardly negative view of “influencers” which was driven by a very narrow set of influencers that I just didn’t like. Then I started working with a few mission driven teams with marketing experience and it’s made me realize the whole category of “influencer” is so much more diverse than I realized, and in many ways they can be highly skilled, well trained and even important to engage with.

In a broad sense an “influencer” is just an independent contractor (though increasingly they can be part of a small corporation)that helps with marketing in some fashion. A lot of what these influencers do are the same basic jobs that companies have been doing for decades, though they now spend most of their effort where people spent their time (increasingly only)

I also don’t know how you came up with the 0.01% figure but IME that’s wildly wrong, and gets into the weeds of who we label poor and what level of effort (eg # hours/quarter) it takes to be considered a bonanfide “influencer”. Yes, there’s a large group that gets extremely little in compensation (and much of it “in-kind”), but most of these people wouldn’t even consider themselves to be more than occasional influencers, if they use that term at all. And again this is nothing new… the “get three people to sign up and your membership is free!” has been around for ages, yet now that falls under the influencer label. Most of these are transient, part time folks like students or otherwise employed who just want free product or services with a company they already patronize.

But the majority of people who can say they are full-time influencers tend to be organized AF, and certainly not what I’d consider poor. Good ones are paradoxically less noticeable than the in-your-face posters, and tend to be educated and connected.

I'm not sure if folks have looked at job listings lately, but many, many jobs have listings that specifically ask for social media marketing/influencing skills.

It's the main mechanism by which a lot of brands market, so even if you have an influencer presence for your fly-fishing content, that can demonstrate professional level competency with social media engagement and make you more attractive for a lot of jobs.

I see countless therapy clinics looking for social media savvy therapists who can manage the influencing side of the business.

lcmac32

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 252
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #77 on: July 11, 2024, 11:55:46 AM »
There’s part of me that is interested in creating a FI type site (Once I get out of OMY mode and FIRE), if only to share with a few more people the benefits of FIRE and the need to start early.

I have coworkers, very well paid ones, who still have mortgages and car loans etc. and unemployment (or the prospect of it) is a real cause for fear.

Getting to my FIRE number has meant I’ve lost that fear.

But I’m 49 - I didn’t discover MMM and the concept of FIRE until a few years ago and then my wife and I made FAST progress.  I have no idea how I even stumbled onto this site…but glad I did.

Maybe my old fashioned blog that nobody will read can focus on how easy FIRE should be for those making good incomes, and why it’s important to achieve the FI just in case the job disappears.

I could be a well paid coworker.....I have a "good"* salary, and a mortgage and a car loan. I'd be a bit miffed to lose my job (while secretly longing for it just a little!), but it would definitely push me to try fire for a year or two and see if I sink or swim in the SORR tides.

*"good" as in more than most, and less than some. Checking, I'm a little over 2*median household income for my zip code.

As a side note, I'd likely be more inclined to appear as if it was more of an issue for me! At some level, it is hard for me to process that I have money. I was brought up that anything I had/did that was good was down played and that my sibling needed to be immediately made "whole" or preferrably to have more than me. So at some point I started to minimize what I had, and to a large extent who I was. I guess my schtick is that if people know I have something - like a fair bit of money, no true worries about sudden unemployment - that somehow they will work to level the playing field somehow.

Totally irrational at this stage, I know! But I feel like if my boss knew I was well set for retirement, that my raise and bonus would be lowered in favor of other coworkers who might "need the money more" or, Misty could retire at any moment, let's invest in someone likely to stay, etc.

I don't think this is irrational at all.  There is a very real life envy that occurs when individuals make solid life choices over and over again.  People will find ways to justify that you were simply lucky or in the right place at the right time, etc.  It has been increasingly accentuated by victim mentality.  Simple math dictates that one must earn more than one spends to become wealthy and making that surplus earn in its own right.  Those that get it wrong always have an excuse.  I do not say this to imply that everyone starts on equal footing at the beginning of the race, but too many people that came from the most humble of beginnings have done it to imply that starting position is determinative.  If person x worked harder than person y to attain FIRE in the same number of years, the net result is that x and y have FIRE'd.  We can laud person x later once they made it, but too often x is brainwashed into giving up before they started. 

Discussion among like minded FIRE peers (those on path and those that have made it) is fine, and little envy is expressed.  I would advise to lay low among the uninitiated because your concern is real.

mathlete

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2131
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #78 on: July 11, 2024, 01:55:44 PM »
I spend a good chunk of time exploring mental health influencer content to understand what my clients are coming to session with.

This is a bit of a side-step, but what are you thoughts on the mental health influencer space?

Feels like it's probably a net good, given the stigma around mental health that's existed for so long. But so much of what I see is of the format: "Do you do/have this extremely common thing/feeling? You might have [insert diagnosis]."

Does this sort of thing lead to diagnosis shopping?

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 20638
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #79 on: July 11, 2024, 02:00:15 PM »
I spend a good chunk of time exploring mental health influencer content to understand what my clients are coming to session with.

This is a bit of a side-step, but what are you thoughts on the mental health influencer space?

Feels like it's probably a net good, given the stigma around mental health that's existed for so long. But so much of what I see is of the format: "Do you do/have this extremely common thing/feeling? You might have [insert diagnosis]."

Does this sort of thing lead to diagnosis shopping?

Like all things it's good and bad.

I work primarily with folks who have had unsuccessful therapy, so I'm having to unwind a whole bunch of shit by the time they get to me anyway.

xiv

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #80 on: July 24, 2024, 04:26:19 PM »
I've thought of starting a FIRE blog with an angle that's outside the traditional FIRE topics that have been covered over and over already. But, as others have said, blogs are dying. I'm FI but still working, so I don't want to put energy into something that no one reads. I've considered making YouTube videos instead, but that's also time consuming and could also go nowhere. I'm just very cautious about how I spend my free time.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8346
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #81 on: July 24, 2024, 04:39:31 PM »
I've thought of starting a FIRE blog with an angle that's outside the traditional FIRE topics that have been covered over and over already. But, as others have said, blogs are dying. I'm FI but still working, so I don't want to put energy into something that no one reads. I've considered making YouTube videos instead, but that's also time consuming and could also go nowhere. I'm just very cautious about how I spend my free time.
What's needed is a blog with multiple contributors. In addition to spreading the workload, such a thing could generate content frequently enough to capture people's attention, have an interesting back-and-forth on areas of controversy, appeal to different personalities and therefore be recommended by everyone, and cover fat/lean/coast/expat/ERE/post and other goals instead of just one. Only place ads on individual contributors' work and distribute revenue accordingly. Think SeekingAlpha for FIRE, with a different revenue model because FIRE-interested people hate subscriptions.

Then you have voice-talent podcastify the thing for another cut of ad revenue.

Someone needs to approach MMM with this proposal to transform his blog, since he has the best legacy brand name.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 20638
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #82 on: July 24, 2024, 05:04:17 PM »
I've thought of starting a FIRE blog with an angle that's outside the traditional FIRE topics that have been covered over and over already. But, as others have said, blogs are dying. I'm FI but still working, so I don't want to put energy into something that no one reads. I've considered making YouTube videos instead, but that's also time consuming and could also go nowhere. I'm just very cautious about how I spend my free time.
What's needed is a blog with multiple contributors. In addition to spreading the workload, such a thing could generate content frequently enough to capture people's attention, have an interesting back-and-forth on areas of controversy, appeal to different personalities and therefore be recommended by everyone, and cover fat/lean/coast/expat/ERE/post and other goals instead of just one. Only place ads on individual contributors' work and distribute revenue accordingly. Think SeekingAlpha for FIRE, with a different revenue model because FIRE-interested people hate subscriptions.

Then you have voice-talent podcastify the thing for another cut of ad revenue.

Someone needs to approach MMM with this proposal to transform his blog, since he has the best legacy brand name.

Didn't ChooseFI do almost exactly this, but in podcast form??

tj

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2397
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Orange County CA
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #83 on: July 24, 2024, 06:36:33 PM »
I've thought of starting a FIRE blog with an angle that's outside the traditional FIRE topics that have been covered over and over already. But, as others have said, blogs are dying. I'm FI but still working, so I don't want to put energy into something that no one reads. I've considered making YouTube videos instead, but that's also time consuming and could also go nowhere. I'm just very cautious about how I spend my free time.
What's needed is a blog with multiple contributors. In addition to spreading the workload, such a thing could generate content frequently enough to capture people's attention, have an interesting back-and-forth on areas of controversy, appeal to different personalities and therefore be recommended by everyone, and cover fat/lean/coast/expat/ERE/post and other goals instead of just one. Only place ads on individual contributors' work and distribute revenue accordingly. Think SeekingAlpha for FIRE, with a different revenue model because FIRE-interested people hate subscriptions.

Then you have voice-talent podcastify the thing for another cut of ad revenue.

Someone needs to approach MMM with this proposal to transform his blog, since he has the best legacy brand name.

Didn't ChooseFI do almost exactly this, but in podcast form??


Of cousre they did. FI was linked with frugality before they came along. And they blew up like crazy because of it. Most people don't want to be frugal.

Sandi_k

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2368
  • Location: California
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #84 on: July 24, 2024, 11:16:44 PM »
I've thought of starting a FIRE blog with an angle that's outside the traditional FIRE topics that have been covered over and over already. But, as others have said, blogs are dying. I'm FI but still working, so I don't want to put energy into something that no one reads. I've considered making YouTube videos instead, but that's also time consuming and could also go nowhere. I'm just very cautious about how I spend my free time.
What's needed is a blog with multiple contributors. In addition to spreading the workload, such a thing could generate content frequently enough to capture people's attention, have an interesting back-and-forth on areas of controversy, appeal to different personalities and therefore be recommended by everyone, and cover fat/lean/coast/expat/ERE/post and other goals instead of just one. Only place ads on individual contributors' work and distribute revenue accordingly. Think SeekingAlpha for FIRE, with a different revenue model because FIRE-interested people hate subscriptions.

Then you have voice-talent podcastify the thing for another cut of ad revenue.

Someone needs to approach MMM with this proposal to transform his blog, since he has the best legacy brand name.

JD Roth did this with Get Rich Slowly more than a decade ago.

Sadly, even though he sold (and then bought back) the site, he's decided to bow out of blogging these days.

twinstudy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 605
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #85 on: July 24, 2024, 11:20:02 PM »
I've thought of starting a FIRE blog with an angle that's outside the traditional FIRE topics that have been covered over and over already. But, as others have said, blogs are dying. I'm FI but still working, so I don't want to put energy into something that no one reads. I've considered making YouTube videos instead, but that's also time consuming and could also go nowhere. I'm just very cautious about how I spend my free time.
What's needed is a blog with multiple contributors. In addition to spreading the workload, such a thing could generate content frequently enough to capture people's attention, have an interesting back-and-forth on areas of controversy, appeal to different personalities and therefore be recommended by everyone, and cover fat/lean/coast/expat/ERE/post and other goals instead of just one. Only place ads on individual contributors' work and distribute revenue accordingly. Think SeekingAlpha for FIRE, with a different revenue model because FIRE-interested people hate subscriptions.

Then you have voice-talent podcastify the thing for another cut of ad revenue.

Someone needs to approach MMM with this proposal to transform his blog, since he has the best legacy brand name.

Didn't ChooseFI do almost exactly this, but in podcast form??


Of cousre they did. FI was linked with frugality before they came along. And they blew up like crazy because of it. Most people don't want to be frugal.

There are much higher returns from increasing earnings than increasing frugality. You can only decrease spending up to a point, whereas you can increase your income infinitely. However, frugality tips are universal, whereas each person's path to higher income is individual and very context-dependent. Plus, some of the best tips for earning more are highly situational, non-replicable or both.

Paper Chaser

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2202
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #86 on: July 25, 2024, 03:42:34 AM »
I've thought of starting a FIRE blog with an angle that's outside the traditional FIRE topics that have been covered over and over already. But, as others have said, blogs are dying. I'm FI but still working, so I don't want to put energy into something that no one reads. I've considered making YouTube videos instead, but that's also time consuming and could also go nowhere. I'm just very cautious about how I spend my free time.
What's needed is a blog with multiple contributors. In addition to spreading the workload, such a thing could generate content frequently enough to capture people's attention, have an interesting back-and-forth on areas of controversy, appeal to different personalities and therefore be recommended by everyone, and cover fat/lean/coast/expat/ERE/post and other goals instead of just one. Only place ads on individual contributors' work and distribute revenue accordingly. Think SeekingAlpha for FIRE, with a different revenue model because FIRE-interested people hate subscriptions.

Then you have voice-talent podcastify the thing for another cut of ad revenue.

Someone needs to approach MMM with this proposal to transform his blog, since he has the best legacy brand name.

Didn't ChooseFI do almost exactly this, but in podcast form??


Of cousre they did. FI was linked with frugality before they came along. And they blew up like crazy because of it. Most people don't want to be frugal.

There are much higher returns from increasing earnings than increasing frugality. You can only decrease spending up to a point, whereas you can increase your income infinitely. However, frugality tips are universal, whereas each person's path to higher income is individual and very context-dependent. Plus, some of the best tips for earning more are highly situational, non-replicable or both.

This is probably true to an extent, but every dollar saved is actually worth more than a dollar earned because dollars that are not spent are post tax, while dollars earned are pre-tax. So a dollar not spent is worth something like 1.2 dollars earned for most of us.

I also think that it's easy to assume the typical mindset that annual income is everything, and so you chase higher and higher earnings without considering quality of life, or what cost of living changes might occur if you're job hopping between cities, etc. It's why you hear/read claims from people in VHCOL locations claiming that they couldn't possibly move to a LCOL and survive on "only" $75k/yr or whatever. We must always consider both income and expenses. FIRE is easier when that ratio is in balance, regardless of what one's annual income may be.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 20638
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #87 on: July 25, 2024, 04:52:29 AM »
I've thought of starting a FIRE blog with an angle that's outside the traditional FIRE topics that have been covered over and over already. But, as others have said, blogs are dying. I'm FI but still working, so I don't want to put energy into something that no one reads. I've considered making YouTube videos instead, but that's also time consuming and could also go nowhere. I'm just very cautious about how I spend my free time.
What's needed is a blog with multiple contributors. In addition to spreading the workload, such a thing could generate content frequently enough to capture people's attention, have an interesting back-and-forth on areas of controversy, appeal to different personalities and therefore be recommended by everyone, and cover fat/lean/coast/expat/ERE/post and other goals instead of just one. Only place ads on individual contributors' work and distribute revenue accordingly. Think SeekingAlpha for FIRE, with a different revenue model because FIRE-interested people hate subscriptions.

Then you have voice-talent podcastify the thing for another cut of ad revenue.

Someone needs to approach MMM with this proposal to transform his blog, since he has the best legacy brand name.

Didn't ChooseFI do almost exactly this, but in podcast form??


Of cousre they did. FI was linked with frugality before they came along. And they blew up like crazy because of it. Most people don't want to be frugal.

There are much higher returns from increasing earnings than increasing frugality. You can only decrease spending up to a point, whereas you can increase your income infinitely. However, frugality tips are universal, whereas each person's path to higher income is individual and very context-dependent. Plus, some of the best tips for earning more are highly situational, non-replicable or both.

This is probably true to an extent, but every dollar saved is actually worth more than a dollar earned because dollars that are not spent are post tax, while dollars earned are pre-tax. So a dollar not spent is worth something like 1.2 dollars earned for most of us.

I also think that it's easy to assume the typical mindset that annual income is everything, and so you chase higher and higher earnings without considering quality of life, or what cost of living changes might occur if you're job hopping between cities, etc. It's why you hear/read claims from people in VHCOL locations claiming that they couldn't possibly move to a LCOL and survive on "only" $75k/yr or whatever. We must always consider both income and expenses. FIRE is easier when that ratio is in balance, regardless of what one's annual income may be.

Also, MMM has covered this really well already.

While the upside of income is almost unlimited, so is the upside of spending, and just like you can't outrun a bad diet, you can't out earn consumerism.

This is why frugality is always the key to saving, regardless of what you make. But frugality is really quite relative.

Also, social pressure already exists to earn more. Pretty much no one needs to be told to focus on earning more, but a hell of a lot of people burn out in the attempt to do so, so giving them more financial stability through frugality in the meantime is a great way to feel safer and less pressured to work yourself into the ground.

The message has never been that frugality is the only thing that matters and that earning doesn't. Frugality has just been the primary focus because it's what goes against the existing social messaging, which is "earn more so that you can spend more."

You can't take the messaging and analyze it as if it exists in a vacuum. It exists in response to the dominant discourse.

And yeah, a dollar saved is simply worth more than a dollar earned. In my former profession, I remember carefully calculating out the exact number of hours of work that was optimal. I settled on three 10 hour days a week because adding a fourth day meant adding income in the highest tax bracket.

The fourth day was always the most physically gruelling, and I was making only 50c on the dollar, so it was bad value for my time and energy.

The upside on earning is essentially limitless, but it comes at a time, energy, and stress cost, which have their own value.

At the end of the day though, if a person doesn't get their consumerism under control, then they will be stuck on the hamster wheel of perpetually pushing their earnings to cover their spending.

That's why frugality comes first. That's why frugality is the far more impactful side of the equation, because your earnings mean shit if you inflate your spending to match or exceed them, which is exactly what is promoted in our society.

I've spent my entire career around high earning folks, and plenty of them are in horrible financial health because they never figured out the frugality side. I can't tell you how many folks I know who make hundreds of thousands of dollars, and are stuck working into their 70s doing extremely stressful, extremely demanding work, because they can't get their shit together to stop buying crap like helicopters or pay-for-play dinners with billionaires.

We folks who are in this community take it for granted that a solid savings rate is just common sense, but it's not actually that common.

The average person doesn't need to be told to try and earn more. They need to be told to stop buying shit that doesn't make them any happier.

Spiffsome

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 220
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #88 on: July 25, 2024, 05:11:22 AM »
Quote
pay-for-play dinners with billionaires.

I don't understand this. Why would the billionaires go to dinner with strangers for money? Don't they already have enough money? Is it a charity thing? 

oldtoyota

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3327
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #89 on: July 25, 2024, 05:23:51 AM »
Lol, no, what you're seeing is the death of blogs and forums.

Reddit and TikTok FI communities are alive and well, we're all just old and out of touch.

Yes, I've been in Reddit lately for different topics. That space is alive!

Hosting a blog is a long slog. You have to pay for your domain and hosting and then somehow get traffic there, etc, etc. It's one thing if you want to put the time and energy into that and better to post here or on Reddit if you're not into all the work to manage your own website or community.


oldtoyota

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3327
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #90 on: July 25, 2024, 05:35:27 AM »
I've considered starting a blog, but it's tough to grow organically. The benefit of YouTube or TikTok or other social media is an algorithm to share it with others. If I had a blog best fire blogger ever .com - how would people find out about it?  It would take a lot of SEO to rank on Google for anything finance related. That's why I chose YouTube is the ability to maybe grow within a year. Still tough though. Would love to hear YT feedback @AboveAverageInvestor. DM if you'd like to do an online podcast interview. Don't need to be full FIRE or anything special to inspire or teach someone.

The Verge had a good article about this - organic growth has become super difficult even for big sites.

Quote
There’s a theory I’ve had for a long time that I’ve been calling “Google Zero” — my name for that moment when Google Search simply stops sending traffic outside of its search engine to third-party websites.

Regular Decoder listeners have heard me talk a lot about Google Zero in the last year or two. I asked Google CEO Sundar Pichai about it directly earlier this month. I’ve also asked big media executives, like The New York Times’ Meredith Kopit Levien and Fandom’s Perkins Miller, how it would affect them. Nobody has given me a good answer — and it seems like the media industry still thinks it can deal with it when the time comes. But for a lot of small businesses. Google Zero is now. It’s here, it’s happening, and it can feel insurmountable.

Google Zero. I'd not heard that term but it's something that concerned us when I worked for a nonprofit. Google wanted to basically send our people to their websites before going to ours. What?! No. We provide certain services that people need. Why would we want them to go through Google? Now, I see that Google has reached what they were working for back then.

Even now, in the rare times I search Google, I'm given Google-owned results. No, that's not what I want.

I've started to use DuckDuckGo, which alleges to offer more privacy. That said, the results can be hit or miss yet now Google's can also be hit or miss since they clutter the results pages with AI answers, their own answers that keep you on their platform, etc.

I started a blog for my side business--and worked in SEO for a long time so know a lot about it--and it's been a struggle to get top 10 rankings, which I'd been able to get (with work) 10 years ago. So, yes, something has changed.

Now, I use a combo of social media plus relationships to keep business chugging along. Relationships -- so far -- can't be ruined by Google or AI.




twinstudy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 605
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #91 on: July 25, 2024, 05:39:18 AM »
Quote
While the upside of income is almost unlimited, so is the upside of spending, and just like you can't outrun a bad diet, you can't out earn consumerism.

Sure, but you are assuming that spending has to go up with income, when it doesn't. You can earn more without spending more, and one unit of energy put into earning more doesn't necessarily mean you are going to spend more.

The equation really is, given how many units of energy you have, are they better (more efficiently) invested into earning more or spending less - for most people there will be a combination of both, but it really depends on individual variables. If you are in a line of work which has heavy income upside, you will retire earlier by focussing on earning more, and keeping spending relatively stable.



2sk22

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1718
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #92 on: July 25, 2024, 06:46:36 AM »
I've started to use DuckDuckGo, which alleges to offer more privacy. That said, the results can be hit or miss yet now Google's can also be hit or miss since they clutter the results pages with AI answers, their own answers that keep you on their platform, etc.

I have switched over entirely to DuckDuckGo myself and have made it my default search engine on all of my devices. On rare occasions, I do resort to Google (using the g! trick) but I much prefer the uncluttered search results from DDG. To be clear DDG is mostly a white-labled version of Bing but its good enough for my needs.

Metalcat

  • Senior Mustachian
  • ********
  • Posts: 20638
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #93 on: July 25, 2024, 06:53:39 AM »
Quote
pay-for-play dinners with billionaires.

I don't understand this. Why would the billionaires go to dinner with strangers for money? Don't they already have enough money? Is it a charity thing?

I have no idea why billionaires participate in these things. I just know there are clubs you can pay huge sums to join for "elite" experiences and dinners with folks like Musk are a huge part of the draw.

They pay a membership fee for access to these experiences and then pay massive fees for the actual experiences themselves.

ChpBstrd

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 8346
  • Location: A poor and backward Southern state known as minimum wage country
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #94 on: July 25, 2024, 07:31:23 AM »
I've considered starting a blog, but it's tough to grow organically. The benefit of YouTube or TikTok or other social media is an algorithm to share it with others. If I had a blog best fire blogger ever .com - how would people find out about it?  It would take a lot of SEO to rank on Google for anything finance related. That's why I chose YouTube is the ability to maybe grow within a year. Still tough though. Would love to hear YT feedback @AboveAverageInvestor. DM if you'd like to do an online podcast interview. Don't need to be full FIRE or anything special to inspire or teach someone.

The Verge had a good article about this - organic growth has become super difficult even for big sites.

Quote
There’s a theory I’ve had for a long time that I’ve been calling “Google Zero” — my name for that moment when Google Search simply stops sending traffic outside of its search engine to third-party websites.

Regular Decoder listeners have heard me talk a lot about Google Zero in the last year or two. I asked Google CEO Sundar Pichai about it directly earlier this month. I’ve also asked big media executives, like The New York Times’ Meredith Kopit Levien and Fandom’s Perkins Miller, how it would affect them. Nobody has given me a good answer — and it seems like the media industry still thinks it can deal with it when the time comes. But for a lot of small businesses. Google Zero is now. It’s here, it’s happening, and it can feel insurmountable.

Google Zero. I'd not heard that term but it's something that concerned us when I worked for a nonprofit. Google wanted to basically send our people to their websites before going to ours. What?! No. We provide certain services that people need. Why would we want them to go through Google? Now, I see that Google has reached what they were working for back then.

Even now, in the rare times I search Google, I'm given Google-owned results. No, that's not what I want.

I've started to use DuckDuckGo, which alleges to offer more privacy. That said, the results can be hit or miss yet now Google's can also be hit or miss since they clutter the results pages with AI answers, their own answers that keep you on their platform, etc.

I started a blog for my side business--and worked in SEO for a long time so know a lot about it--and it's been a struggle to get top 10 rankings, which I'd been able to get (with work) 10 years ago. So, yes, something has changed.

Now, I use a combo of social media plus relationships to keep business chugging along. Relationships -- so far -- can't be ruined by Google or AI.
Yea there's something seriously wrong with any business model nowadays whose web strategy is "People will find my web content by using search tools and algorithms run by corporations whose primary motivation is to connect people with the most relevant information they need."

That was the old internet, when the current monopolists (alphabet, meta, apple, microsoft...) were in a struggle to obtain market share by providing beneficial services for free. Now that we've created these monopolies, the monopolies are facing shareholder pressure to monetize their services. Simultaneously, the existence of monopolies prevents startups from succeeding at attracting funding or users. Imagine pitching a plan to replace google maps or build an instagram clone to a VC firm today!

We're living in the era of enshittification, where things work worse than before and cost more money. Now, when someone finds your site or content without you paying for that view, it is considered financial leakage, and that's a problem people are working to solve. This changes the rules compared to, say, 15 years ago, when SEO keyword choices were all it took to improve one's rank.

The internet may be broken as a vehicle for volunteers or tiny entrepreneurs to spread helpful information on the cheap with a small contribution of their time. It may stay broken for the rest of our lives. This makes me wonder whether in-person meetup groups or paper books are the future for our ideas. Otherwise, the FIRE movement may (continue to) be banished to the dustiest corners of the internet, because it's a lot easier to monetize content about spa treatments, pet grooming, and truck customization than content about frugality and saving.

The even playing field of ideas is over. The internet is becoming more like television in all the ways we despise.

Alternatepriorities

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1737
  • Age: 44
  • Location: Alaska
  • Engineer, explorer, investor
    • Alternate Priorities
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #95 on: July 25, 2024, 05:12:49 PM »
The internet is becoming more like television in all the ways we despise.

I had not thought to put it in those terms, but this might be one of those things I just can't unthink... I was never as invested online as many of my college friends, but over the last decade I've drifter farther and farther from investing time online at all. This forum is my last bastion of meaningful online presence. I listen to podcasts or youtube podcasts too much, but other than that I only get online when I want to answer a specific question... Now that you mention it, the internet has become slightly more interactive TV and I haven't enjoyed watching TV in twice as long...

2sk22

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1718
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #96 on: July 26, 2024, 03:06:12 AM »
The internet is becoming more like television in all the ways we despise.

I had not thought to put it in those terms, but this might be one of those things I just can't unthink... I was never as invested online as many of my college friends, but over the last decade I've drifter farther and farther from investing time online at all. This forum is my last bastion of meaningful online presence. I listen to podcasts or youtube podcasts too much, but other than that I only get online when I want to answer a specific question... Now that you mention it, the internet has become slightly more interactive TV and I haven't enjoyed watching TV in twice as long...

There is still good material behind paywalls - I subscribe to Bloomberg, Washington Post, Atlantic, New Yorker, and Ars Technica. I also subscribe to several paid newsletters including those from Noah Smith and Ben Evans. Via Apple News I also get access to bunch of other publications. My guess is that only a tiny fraction of the population can afford to have so many subscriptions.

But pretty much all material outside of paywalls has been poisoned by SEO and more recently automatically generated content from LLMs. If you don't pay, you only get regurgitated garbage.

twinstudy

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 605
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #97 on: July 26, 2024, 03:17:44 AM »
The internet is becoming more like television in all the ways we despise.

I had not thought to put it in those terms, but this might be one of those things I just can't unthink... I was never as invested online as many of my college friends, but over the last decade I've drifter farther and farther from investing time online at all. This forum is my last bastion of meaningful online presence. I listen to podcasts or youtube podcasts too much, but other than that I only get online when I want to answer a specific question... Now that you mention it, the internet has become slightly more interactive TV and I haven't enjoyed watching TV in twice as long...

There is still good material behind paywalls - I subscribe to Bloomberg, Washington Post, Atlantic, New Yorker, and Ars Technica. I also subscribe to several paid newsletters including those from Noah Smith and Ben Evans. Via Apple News I also get access to bunch of other publications. My guess is that only a tiny fraction of the population can afford to have so many subscriptions.

But pretty much all material outside of paywalls has been poisoned by SEO and more recently automatically generated content from LLMs. If you don't pay, you only get regurgitated garbage.

https://www.bankrate.com/surveys/financial-vices-december-2019/

According to this, the average American spends over $2k a year on smoking, drinking and gambling, so I suspect that if the population can afford those things they can also afford a few subscriptions which collectively might total $400/year. Especially as the subscriptions could easily be deductible as work expenses.

There are also many ways of getting most paywalled content for free, like using 12 foot ladder.

People's inability to access knowledge is their own failing; it's not, at least in a first world country, due to monetary constraints.

oldtoyota

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3327
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #98 on: July 30, 2024, 09:03:27 PM »
I've started to use DuckDuckGo, which alleges to offer more privacy. That said, the results can be hit or miss yet now Google's can also be hit or miss since they clutter the results pages with AI answers, their own answers that keep you on their platform, etc.

I have switched over entirely to DuckDuckGo myself and have made it my default search engine on all of my devices. On rare occasions, I do resort to Google (using the g! trick) but I much prefer the uncluttered search results from DDG. To be clear DDG is mostly a white-labled version of Bing but its good enough for my needs.

I'll Google (just kidding) what the "g! trick" is. I'm curious to learn about what that does.

2sk22

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1718
Re: FIRE bloggers fizzling
« Reply #99 on: July 31, 2024, 06:09:06 AM »
I've started to use DuckDuckGo, which alleges to offer more privacy. That said, the results can be hit or miss yet now Google's can also be hit or miss since they clutter the results pages with AI answers, their own answers that keep you on their platform, etc.

I have switched over entirely to DuckDuckGo myself and have made it my default search engine on all of my devices. On rare occasions, I do resort to Google (using the g! trick) but I much prefer the uncluttered search results from DDG. To be clear DDG is mostly a white-labled version of Bing but its good enough for my needs.

I'll Google (just kidding) what the "g! trick" is. I'm curious to learn about what that does.

It just sends your search terms to Google 😀 Its just a minor convenience that I have hardly ever used in recent times.