FIRE and learning disorders like ADHD and dyslexia

[Metalcat]

This reminded me that whenever I watch informational youtube videos longer than about 3 minutes these days I have to watch them at 2x speed with subtitles on or I get bored of them...

But this is just giving yourself more/faster stimulation on the one subject of focus. That doesn't strike me as weird at all. It's doing two unrelated things at once that I would guess reduces retention by a lot... except that I suspect Malcat has considered this already.

I'm interested in hearing what Malcat does as well. I may do something similar, depending on what Malcat means by doing something else. If I'm listening to an audio lecture, for example, I'll often speed it up and also embroider, play a puzzle game on my phone, or some other background activity. That activity can't be too involved or it distracts me from the lecture, but if it takes up the right amount of brain capacity, it stops my mind from wandering to other subjects.

It depends. If you see me posting here for hours on end, there's a good chance I'm listening to lectures.

If I'm listening to an audiobook, I'm doing something physical like cooking, cleaning, or organizing.

Very few tasks benefit from my full attention.

I am NOT easily distracted, so I focus quite automatically and need to actively distract myself to maintain a more normal level of attention. As I said, I kind of have anti ADHD.

[ChpBstrd]

I was prescribed ritalin as a kid, and I am the child of a dyslexic and a schizophrenic, but I went on to obtain a master's degree and do all sorts of reading-intensive, math-intensive, and focus-intensive stuff. So IDK if this response is relevant or not.

I've never engaged with any job. Ever. The closest I've been to "flow" have been the times when I could lock into a project and finally give SOMETHING my full attention. I'm a damn genius when I can achieve that state, which is not often. Nonetheless I'm capable, so it is probably not that I have a diagnosable condition that's leading me to not be into work.

The better question is why are so many other people absolutely living for the sake of their jobs and career advancement? How can they be so banal as to be fascinated by this month's TPS report and looking forward to next week's vendor call? How can someone be excited about working for the next 3 years in the hopes of being promoted from Analyst 1 to Analyst 3, or from supervisor to manager? If the world was populated by people like me, this behavior would be borderline OCD, instead of the normal expectation.

My inability to sit and do a simple task over and over again has led me to be a jack-of-all-trades. I transition seamlessly from complex spreadsheet models to HVAC work to installing Linux operating systems to researching veterinary conditions to reading Lucretius and Hobbes. I also transition from leading work teams to hunkering down for analysis and back to leading a nonprofit team. I may excel in none of these areas as well as an obsessive specialist, but I'm a lot less likely to find myself trapped when my car won't start or the conversation shifts to how Keynes proposed we deal with deficits or my computer won't boot. I'm also a millionaire unlike many of the specialists who can do far better than I can in their field, but who have little skill doing other things.

Because more dedicated specialists can out-perform me at any given task, it feels like a matter of time before I am replaced by them. I'm on my 3rd career, and in hindsight each previous direction ended when it became repetitive specialist work and I fell behind. When the rat race seems like a race I can't win, I think of retiring early and winning that way. Then I envision a retirement where I bounce from thing to thing - which seems like the perfect life for me! That's where a lot of the motivation comes from.

[KarefulKactus15]

I was prescribed ritalin as a kid, and I am the child of a dyslexic and a schizophrenic, but I went on to obtain a master's degree and do all sorts of reading-intensive, math-intensive, and focus-intensive stuff. So IDK if this response is relevant or not.

I've never engaged with any job. Ever. The closest I've been to "flow" have been the times when I could lock into a project and finally give SOMETHING my full attention. I'm a damn genius when I can achieve that state, which is not often. Nonetheless I'm capable, so it is probably not that I have a diagnosable condition that's leading me to not be into work.

The better question is why are so many other people absolutely living for the sake of their jobs and career advancement? How can they be so banal as to be fascinated by this month's TPS report and looking forward to next week's vendor call? How can someone be excited about working for the next 3 years in the hopes of being promoted from Analyst 1 to Analyst 3, or from supervisor to manager? If the world was populated by people like me, this behavior would be borderline OCD, instead of the normal expectation.

My inability to sit and do a simple task over and over again has led me to be a jack-of-all-trades. I transition seamlessly from complex spreadsheet models to HVAC work to installing Linux operating systems to researching veterinary conditions to reading Lucretius and Hobbes. I also transition from leading work teams to hunkering down for analysis and back to leading a nonprofit team. I may excel in none of these areas as well as an obsessive specialist, but I'm a lot less likely to find myself trapped when my car won't start or the conversation shifts to how Keynes proposed we deal with deficits or my computer won't boot. I'm also a millionaire unlike many of the specialists who can do far better than I can in their field, but who have little skill doing other things.

Because more dedicated specialists can out-perform me at any given task, it feels like a matter of time before I am replaced by them. I'm on my 3rd career, and in hindsight each previous direction ended when it became repetitive specialist work and I fell behind. When the rat race seems like a race I can't win, I think of retiring early and winning that way. Then I envision a retirement where I bounce from thing to thing - which seems like the perfect life for me! That's where a lot of the motivation comes from.

If you dont want to live like everyone, you have to not live like everybody else.    I think Dave Ramsey says "Live like no one else today, so you can live like no one else tomorrow"          But yes - It seems people who dont fit the rat race model dont do the rat race and are in fact different.

[Zikoris]

One of the other hallmarks of dyscalculia is difficulty with learning things like dance steps...I was once cajoled into trying out square dancing with some friends, and the poor elderly folks (most of the dance club) who knew what they were doing had to physically push me around to get me in the right place at the right time. I noped out pretty quick...I didn't want anyone to get hurt!

That is really interesting to know. I've done various types of dance classes for many years now, and not to sound mean, but it always puzzled me just how BAD some people are at it, even with incredibly beginner-level steps, and by beginner I'm talking "walk five steps forward in a straight line, starting on the left foot". And they were trying very hard! And they weren't mentally disabled! Just something wasn't working in their brains. So this makes a lot of sense.

[Poeirenta]

One of the other hallmarks of dyscalculia is difficulty with learning things like dance steps...I was once cajoled into trying out square dancing with some friends, and the poor elderly folks (most of the dance club) who knew what they were doing had to physically push me around to get me in the right place at the right time. I noped out pretty quick...I didn't want anyone to get hurt!

That is really interesting to know. I've done various types of dance classes for many years now, and not to sound mean, but it always puzzled me just how BAD some people are at it, even with incredibly beginner-level steps, and by beginner I'm talking "walk five steps forward in a straight line, starting on the left foot". And they were trying very hard! And they weren't mentally disabled! Just something wasn't working in their brains. So this makes a lot of sense.

Ahhh, now I'm having a flashback to jazz dance class when I was in single digits, lol. I thought step-ball-kick was a fun move, but don't ask me to string it together with anything else!

Having issues with left/right is another characteristic, so it's a double whammy for choreography.

Sent from my Z5157V using Tapatalk

[RetiredAt63]

One of the other hallmarks of dyscalculia is difficulty with learning things like dance steps...I was once cajoled into trying out square dancing with some friends, and the poor elderly folks (most of the dance club) who knew what they were doing had to physically push me around to get me in the right place at the right time. I noped out pretty quick...I didn't want anyone to get hurt!

That is really interesting to know. I've done various types of dance classes for many years now, and not to sound mean, but it always puzzled me just how BAD some people are at it, even with incredibly beginner-level steps, and by beginner I'm talking "walk five steps forward in a straight line, starting on the left foot". And they were trying very hard! And they weren't mentally disabled! Just something wasn't working in their brains. So this makes a lot of sense.

Ahhh, now I'm having a flashback to jazz dance class when I was in single digits, lol. I thought step-ball-kick was a fun move, but don't ask me to string it together with anything else!

Having issues with left/right is another characteristic, so it's a double whammy for choreography.

Sent from my Z5157V using Tapatalk

This reminds me of little kid's dance class.  Point your right foot.  No, your other right foot.

[Tasse]

I'm interested in hearing what Malcat does as well. I may do something similar, depending on what Malcat means by doing something else. If I'm listening to an audio lecture, for example, I'll often speed it up and also embroider, play a puzzle game on my phone, or some other background activity. That activity can't be too involved or it distracts me from the lecture, but if it takes up the right amount of brain capacity, it stops my mind from wandering to other subjects.

It depends. If you see me posting here for hours on end, there's a good chance I'm listening to lectures.

If I'm listening to an audiobook, I'm doing something physical like cooking, cleaning, or organizing.

Very few tasks benefit from my full attention.

I am NOT easily distracted, so I focus quite automatically and need to actively distract myself to maintain a more normal level of attention. As I said, I kind of have anti ADHD.

I suppose I would draw a distinction between multitasking with something relatively mindless, like cleaning, vs actually trying to focus on multiple demanding things at once.

In particular I know that I can only engage with language from one source at a time. So for me, typing on a website would mean absolutely nothing from a lecture is entering my brain. (Compiled by the fact that I have better comprehension from reading than from listening.)

[Metalcat]

I'm interested in hearing what Malcat does as well. I may do something similar, depending on what Malcat means by doing something else. If I'm listening to an audio lecture, for example, I'll often speed it up and also embroider, play a puzzle game on my phone, or some other background activity. That activity can't be too involved or it distracts me from the lecture, but if it takes up the right amount of brain capacity, it stops my mind from wandering to other subjects.

It depends. If you see me posting here for hours on end, there's a good chance I'm listening to lectures.

If I'm listening to an audiobook, I'm doing something physical like cooking, cleaning, or organizing.

Very few tasks benefit from my full attention.

I am NOT easily distracted, so I focus quite automatically and need to actively distract myself to maintain a more normal level of attention. As I said, I kind of have anti ADHD.

I suppose I would draw a distinction between multitasking with something relatively mindless, like cleaning, vs actually trying to focus on multiple demanding things at once.

In particular I know that I can only engage with language from one source at a time. So for me, typing on a website would mean absolutely nothing from a lecture is entering my brain. (Compiled by the fact that I have better comprehension from reading than from listening.)

Ah, see I can rapidly alternate between quickly reading, quickly writing, and listening to someone speak at a double speed and rapidly move my attention between them to appear to seamlessly do all 3 at once.

It's not meant to focus as much as possible on any one thing though, it's meant to pick up what I need to ace a test or sift through huge volumes of information to quickly tease out what's important.

The vast majority of input information is not important, so I only superficially notice most of it. And I automatically give more attention to the key points that I actually need to remember.

So yes, I'll pause writing when I detect something important that I want to solidly commit to memory. 

But I assure you, I have never once posted anything here without also listening to something else at the same time.

[Morning Glory]

Not really a learning disorder but I have sensory issues that have caused me to stay away from certain jobs. I get overwhelmed in loud chaotic environments,  and simply can't tolerate high pitched sounds like beeping at all- no icu nursing for me. I had trouble last year with tolerating the n95 mask too and was constantly adjusting it and would sometimes get panic attacks (had to wear it in procedures,  not with actual covid patients). As a child I always wore dresses or overalls because I couldn't stand anything on my waist. I have other autistic traits but they are subtle- things like having to remind myself to make eye contact when speaking to someone,  because it's not natural or comfortable for me. I get by ok but it's tiring.

[Tasse]

Ah, see I can rapidly alternate between quickly reading, quickly writing, and listening to someone speak at a double speed and rapidly move my attention between them to appear to seamlessly do all 3 at once.

This is exactly what I can't do. My first grade report card said I "struggled to transition between tasks" and it's still true.

Thanks for sharing, always interesting to learn how different brains are.

[MoseyingAlong]

Interesting discussion.

I have sometimes thought I might have ADD but it doesn't really fit.  Some of the new material coming out on women on the autistic spectrum is a bit closer, but not really.

At this point I think of myself as a Renaissance woman, interested in lots of things.  Excellent focus if I am interested in something (including staying up to 3 AM to finish a book), pretty good focus if I need to learn/understand something, otherwise a scatter-brain who looks organized because I have systems. 

And I don't like most audio books because they are too slow - I read fast.

@RetiredAt63
Thanks for describing me!
Your succinct description is very helpful.

Which part is You? All of it? Or basically Renaissance person?

I guess we are twins separated at birth?   ;-) 

I look at how limited in activity scope our lives are today, compared to so many of our ancestors, and think our talents just don't have enough outlets.

All of it.
I was diagnosed with ADD but question it. When I read about autism, I think some of it fits.

I want to like podcasts but they are slow and wander. Have found audiobooks are much better when sped up. Have a hard time sticking with some TV shows for the same reason. If there's a commercial break, I'm out. No more broadcast TV for me.

People are surprised by my varied work pursuits; they are all over the place. Seemingly no relation between them. Have thought for years that seasonal work would be great. Tax Prep at the beginning of the year, work at a national park for a few months after April 15th, then misc. adventures in later summer, financial planning in the fall. Adventures could be travel, Habitat for Humanity, Team Rubicon, medical missions.

Extremely focused if I'm into something. Unfortunately right before tax season one year, I was introduced to a TV series. 12 seasons of 20+ episodes each season, each episode 40+ minutes. Plus a couple spin off series. Well, I had watched all of them, plus read a bunch of fan fiction, plus learned a lot about the lead actors before tax season ended. Not a good tax season. But then I was done with that. And moved onto the next interest.

Do well in school if needed. Love setting up organization systems but have trouble using them long term.

The subject that has kept me interested the longest is personal financial planning. It's a lot of numbers which I like working with. But mainly because it enables freedom, a sense of self determination and options.

Your description was much more succinct.

[spartanswami]

So my adult sibling and 13 year old daughter just got diagnosed with ADHD inattentive type.  I started reading about it more and more and a lightbulb went off.  I think I have it too. My assessment is scheduled for the new year but I've been thinking about it and I think that there is some kind of relationship between my (possible) ADHD and my attraction to FIRE and failure to align my self-worth with my professional life the way so many others seem to do.  Something has always felt 'off' to me with work, no matter what job I've had and I've always fought the urge to just run out the door and never come back.  No surprise that one of my favorite movies is "Office Space."

I also got diagnosed with dyslexia as a child (late 70s) because I couldn't read but received no special treatment and, once I learned to read, I kind of put it out of my mind.  I'm now reading that dyslexia is actually a life long thing and there's more to it than not knowing how to read --so maybe some of my 'differences' at work (taking ages to read things, having to proofread a million times, spelling mistakes if i don't use spellcheck and problems remembering common words amongst other things) are due to the dyslexia.

Anyway i guess I'll find out if I have this issue when I do my assessment but I was wondering if there are others with learning disorders here and, if so, if they feel that there's a relationship between it and their mustachianism.

Holy Cow! This thread has been a lightbulb moment for me. We've been suspecting that my DD has ADD and have begun looking at ways to get her diagnosed. But reading through this comment and thread, I think I might need to diagnose myself. Office Space is my favorite movie! And I've never understood why and how people tolerate so much corporate BS.

Thanks OP for starting this, and to everyone for the additional insights, the YouTube channel seems spot-on and I've started viewing those at 1.5x speed. I have to agree that there does seem to be a correlation with ADD and mustachianism. Perhaps it's the frustration with the working world and all the attendant BS that motivates us to be free to do whatever the heck we want. On a nice sunny day, I detest being inside the home/office in some BS meeting when I could just be outside.

[Metalcat]

Ah, see I can rapidly alternate between quickly reading, quickly writing, and listening to someone speak at a double speed and rapidly move my attention between them to appear to seamlessly do all 3 at once.

This is exactly what I can't do. My first grade report card said I "struggled to transition between tasks" and it's still true.

Thanks for sharing, always interesting to learn how different brains are.

I'm pretty sure I developed this because of the dyslexia. I couldn't read in a focused, linear manner, so I developed this rapid transition habit and my brain just maximized it.

[Hula Hoop]

So my adult sibling and 13 year old daughter just got diagnosed with ADHD inattentive type.  I started reading about it more and more and a lightbulb went off.  I think I have it too. My assessment is scheduled for the new year but I've been thinking about it and I think that there is some kind of relationship between my (possible) ADHD and my attraction to FIRE and failure to align my self-worth with my professional life the way so many others seem to do.  Something has always felt 'off' to me with work, no matter what job I've had and I've always fought the urge to just run out the door and never come back.  No surprise that one of my favorite movies is "Office Space."

I also got diagnosed with dyslexia as a child (late 70s) because I couldn't read but received no special treatment and, once I learned to read, I kind of put it out of my mind.  I'm now reading that dyslexia is actually a life long thing and there's more to it than not knowing how to read --so maybe some of my 'differences' at work (taking ages to read things, having to proofread a million times, spelling mistakes if i don't use spellcheck and problems remembering common words amongst other things) are due to the dyslexia.

Anyway i guess I'll find out if I have this issue when I do my assessment but I was wondering if there are others with learning disorders here and, if so, if they feel that there's a relationship between it and their mustachianism.

Holy Cow! This thread has been a lightbulb moment for me. We've been suspecting that my DD has ADD and have begun looking at ways to get her diagnosed. But reading through this comment and thread, I think I might need to diagnose myself. Office Space is my favorite movie! And I've never understood why and how people tolerate so much corporate BS.

Thanks OP for starting this, and to everyone for the additional insights, the YouTube channel seems spot-on and I've started viewing those at 1.5x speed. I have to agree that there does seem to be a correlation with ADD and mustachianism. Perhaps it's the frustration with the working world and all the attendant BS that motivates us to be free to do whatever the heck we want. On a nice sunny day, I detest being inside the home/office in some BS meeting when I could just be outside.

You're welcome!  Glad to see so many fellow kindred spirits/broken toys on this thread. 

My parents are both workaholics so I grew up with that model of adulthood.  It's been weird for me to get my identity elsewhere.

[Hula Hoop]

Ah, see I can rapidly alternate between quickly reading, quickly writing, and listening to someone speak at a double speed and rapidly move my attention between them to appear to seamlessly do all 3 at once.

This is exactly what I can't do. My first grade report card said I "struggled to transition between tasks" and it's still true.

Thanks for sharing, always interesting to learn how different brains are.

I'm pretty sure I developed this because of the dyslexia. I couldn't read in a focused, linear manner, so I developed this rapid transition habit and my brain just maximized it.

I'm also dyslexic and am the exact opposite of this.  In fact, one of the hardest things about parenting for me is when both kids come at me talking at once - especially if I'm trying to do something else like read a work email or cook dinner.  Also, at work, if I have multiple tasks to do i can't start any of them.  I just completely freeze.  This is possibly a sign of ADHD but I guess I'll find out next month.

[Metalcat]

Ah, see I can rapidly alternate between quickly reading, quickly writing, and listening to someone speak at a double speed and rapidly move my attention between them to appear to seamlessly do all 3 at once.

This is exactly what I can't do. My first grade report card said I "struggled to transition between tasks" and it's still true.

Thanks for sharing, always interesting to learn how different brains are.

I'm pretty sure I developed this because of the dyslexia. I couldn't read in a focused, linear manner, so I developed this rapid transition habit and my brain just maximized it.

I'm also dyslexic and am the exact opposite of this.  In fact, one of the hardest things about parenting for me is when both kids come at me talking at once - especially if I'm trying to do something else like read a work email or cook dinner.  Also, at work, if I have multiple tasks to do i can't start any of them.  I just completely freeze.  This is possibly a sign of ADHD but I guess I'll find out next month.

Yep, not everyone adapts the same way, and not everyone's dyslexia manifests the same way.

Mine is mild and I was able to bend my brain around it at the age of 10. I could barely read or write or do math and was put into "special class" to play with guinea pigs because I was basically considered hopeless (it was the 80s in a small rural town, that's how we handled special needs kids back then).

Then suddenly one day I could do math extremely well. Literally one day to the next I went from bottom of the class to the very top. I remember the day vividly, math sheets didn't make any sense and then in an instant they were stupidly easy.

My brain just rearranged *something* and found a way to weave itself through the perception problems.

I've worked with special needs kids for years, most don't do that, I was very lucky.

I still can't tell left from right although I have weirdly good spatial reasoning in other ways, I still can't hand write anything without having to take an obnoxious amount of time to do so, and I still have a very, very hard time following binary patterns (this is hard to explain, so I'll just leave it at that). But my brain definitely did something crazy that day in grade 4 that totally changed my capacity and performance forever.

[RetiredAt63]

But my brain definitely did something crazy that day in grade 4 that totally changed my capacity and performance forever.

My brain did that when I was learning programming - not a standard activity for Bio majors.  It didn't make sense and then it did.  It was all logical and linear, where most biology things are everything connects to everything else.  My brain had to flip from one way of processing info to the opposite.

[Hula Hoop]

Update - i've been diagnosed with ADHD.  Not exactly a surprise.

[Peony2019]

One aspect of ADD/ADHD that I haven't seen mentioned yet, and can be a major challenge to achieving FI, is the impact it has on executive function and impulse control. Part of getting a diagnosis is understanding the risks and rewards of being neuro-atypical which allows the individual to create systems to help buffer some of the associated challenges. 

If an individual w/ ADD/ADHD is interested in FI, they may hyperfocus on it and be incredibly successful.  If FI is not their 'thing', it is easy for them to get sidetracked in search of that next shiny object, hobby, or experience their brain craves and spend wildly to obtain. 

As someone who has loved ones diagnosed w/ ADHD later in life, the worst thing about not knowing one has the condition is that one can believe they have a character flaw based on life choices and/or whether or not they perform well in neurotypical environments.  Once the individual understands what to watch for and is able to be medicated if needed, they have a better shot at the planning and execution of their goals.  And if FI is one of those goals, a higher likelihood of success.

[getsorted]

One aspect of ADD/ADHD that I haven't seen mentioned yet, and can be a major challenge to achieving FI, is the impact it has on executive function and impulse control.

Yes. I came to this thread hoping someone on here was like me... looking for advice staying with the boring parts of saving and investing when you aren't in a hyperfocus state, and establishing ways to remind myself of my larger goals when I do feel like an impulsive spend.

As someone who has loved ones diagnosed w/ ADHD later in life, the worst thing about not knowing one has the condition is that one can believe they have a character flaw based on life choices and/or whether or not they perform well in neurotypical environments.

I struggle with depression and anxiety because of this. I was very recently diagnosed with ADHD (like the original poster, I started reading about it when my kid was in the diagnostic process, and said, "Oh no, it me." And I'll be 40 next week. I have worked extremely hard my entire life to "be organized," to be "detail-oriented," to "pay attention!" to meet expectations, and I've done pretty well... and all it cost was my self-esteem and mental health, and I'm still not what you'd call a high performer. It's actually been hugely emotionally difficult looking back over my life at all the huge ADHD red flags, and how much I've hated myself for most of them.

But, I strive to be a forward-looking person, and I would welcome any tips or advice from more experienced neuro-atypicals that is specifically relevant to 1. Remembering not to spend money (I'm not a frivolous spender, but the world is so very full of "useful" things to buy, and buying is such a great way to make your brain make dopamine!) and 2. Actually finishing, evaluating, and staying with an entire budget even when you have that feeling like you will jump out of your own skin if you have to look at it one more minute (aka, the dopamine well has run dry).

[OtherJen]

Posting to follow.

I've had conversations recently with a few female friends who were diagnosed with ADHD as adults, and I'm fairly certain that I have it. It would explain SO many things going back to early childhood (and even infancy, when I rarely slept and screamed in frustration unless I was given visual or audio stimulation). I brought it up to my mom at Easter dinner, and I could almost see the lightbulb click on in her head; she's reasonably sure that she also has it; it would also explain a lot of things about my maternal grandma, one of mom's older sisters, and her younger brother.

I don't want to go on meds. I've developed organizational and other coping mechanisms that work fairly well when I'm not under high stress, but I would like to better understand my brain and feel like less of a failure when I'm under stress and can't remember things for longer than 5 seconds and my house descends into chaos.

[Bruinguy]

I don't want to go on meds. I've developed organizational and other coping mechanisms that work fairly well when I'm not under high stress, but I would like to better understand my brain and feel like less of a failure when I'm under stress and can't remember things for longer than 5 seconds and my house descends into chaos.

I’m not sure I have the right way of saying this, but you are not failing. I expect that you are always doing your best and it isn’t fair or nice to yourself to beat yourself up for not doing better than your best.

With respect to meds, absolutely do what is best for you. If you have not tried them, you may consider that it is something that you can try and stop if it doesn’t make your life better. 

[getsorted]

Posting to follow.

I've developed organizational and other coping mechanisms that work fairly well when I'm not under high stress, but I would like to better understand my brain and feel like less of a failure when I'm under stress and can't remember things for longer than 5 seconds and my house descends into chaos.

Your whole post was relatable, but especially this part!

I have been learning about occupational therapy for ADHD (because my kid and I were diagnosed at the same time), and I have found it enlightening. There are types of stimulation that help us "wake up" our cortex and increase executive function.

Two books I have found helpful are "Smart but Scattered," which is basically a CBT workbook for executive skills, and "Scattered" by Gabor Mate. The second one is particularly useful if you're trying to understand your brain, the first one is a very structured plan for improving problem areas that I found particularly useful for getting a grip on what EXACTLY I am struggling with. Sometimes just having the words and concepts to describe what's happening in your mind is so helpful.

[OtherJen]

Posting to follow.

I've developed organizational and other coping mechanisms that work fairly well when I'm not under high stress, but I would like to better understand my brain and feel like less of a failure when I'm under stress and can't remember things for longer than 5 seconds and my house descends into chaos.

Your whole post was relatable, but especially this part!

I have been learning about occupational therapy for ADHD (because my kid and I were diagnosed at the same time), and I have found it enlightening. There are types of stimulation that help us "wake up" our cortex and increase executive function.

Two books I have found helpful are "Smart but Scattered," which is basically a CBT workbook for executive skills, and "Scattered" by Gabor Mate. The second one is particularly useful if you're trying to understand your brain, the first one is a very structured plan for improving problem areas that I found particularly useful for getting a grip on what EXACTLY I am struggling with. Sometimes just having the words and concepts to describe what's happening in your mind is so helpful.

Thank you! I'm a fan of Gabor Mate: "When the Body Says No" was a fascinating read.

[OtherJen]

I don't want to go on meds. I've developed organizational and other coping mechanisms that work fairly well when I'm not under high stress, but I would like to better understand my brain and feel like less of a failure when I'm under stress and can't remember things for longer than 5 seconds and my house descends into chaos.

I’m not sure I have the right way of saying this, but you are not failing. I expect that you are always doing your best and it isn’t fair or nice to yourself to beat yourself up for not doing better than your best.

With respect to meds, absolutely do what is best for you. If you have not tried them, you may consider that it is something that you can try and stop if it doesn’t make your life better.

Thank you for your kind words.

[getsorted]

Thank you! I'm a fan of Gabor Mate: "When the Body Says No" was a fascinating read.

He has ADHD himself, as do his kids, so it's both a personal and a professional take on it. And he's such a beautiful writer.

[Edubb20]

My family and has always had this joking acknowledgment that ADHD is likely at play in our genetics.  That being said, no one in my family has ever been diagnosed and I had never taken it all that seriously.  In fact, unfairly, I would typically eyeroll anyone around me who brought up ADHD impacting them. Looking back, I'm a little embarrassed by how easily I wrote people off.

That being said, I'm now in my mid thirties and I am working with a therapist. Based on our conversations and how some of my habits have impacted my life (some significant impacts to my work, and honestly, my ability to FIRE), the therapist recommended going in for ADHD testing.  It was the first time I really dug into it, and I'm pretty much a textbook candidate for inattentive ADHD .  No cherry picking of symptoms. ALL of them apply.

I go in for testing in a couple of weeks. I'm cautiously optimistic that there will be a diagnosis and I WILL try medication if it's recommended. If not, I'll try to figure something else out.

[Ron Scott]

I'm dyslexic, I see the world a little sideways and that has made all the difference, in a good way, in my life.

I can't say that it makes my FIRE journey inevitable or that it makes me more or less cut out for "normal" work.  When managers utilize my able to problem solve, they're usually very happy with my work and I can be a very valuable member of their team.

It does limit who can see me as an intelligent addition to their team.  The spelling and typos can make some people so crazy.  Once a manager decides it means I'm an idiot, well, the jig is up, they can't unsee me that way, because the typos will always reinforce this idea. 

The older I get, the more comfortable I become with the fact that I would rather see the world the way I see it, than have everyone see me as intelligent.  Potato/ tomato and all that.

Dyslexics of the world untie!!!

LOL. I have mild dyslexia that manifests in spelling issues, typos, slow reading, left-right confusion, etc.

But I have also always seen myself as being able to connect facts faster than others and to be generally more creative. I did well in school, got a PhD, and became a senior officer at my firm, responsible for running several large business.

I’ve told friends, coworkers and family about my dyslexia without reservation.  I usually describe the issues I have and mention that I do some things worse but others much better than average. Most adults are really good about it and give me a break where I need it.

Funny thing is when I’m driving with my daughter or wife they know better than to tell me to make a left or a right; they point! I still can’t get that…

[getsorted]

Looking back, I'm a little embarrassed by how easily I wrote people off.

Same, friend, same. But, we are living in a time of cultural shifting, where we are all beginning to understand and acknowledge mental differences (mental health, neurotypicality, the impact of life experience, etc) and how all that affects how we function. Building an understanding of your own brain and how to work with its unique architecture -- I mean, that wasn't really a part of the starter package for most of us!

[Edubb20]

Looking back, I'm a little embarrassed by how easily I wrote people off.

Same, friend, same. But, we are living in a time of cultural shifting, where we are all beginning to understand and acknowledge mental differences (mental health, neurotypicality, the impact of life experience, etc) and how all that affects how we function. Building an understanding of your own brain and how to work with its unique architecture -- I mean, that wasn't really a part of the starter package for most of us!

I can't see anything but a collective benefit to humanity from this shift. :)

[Otsog]

I was diagnosed ~10 years ago as an adult. Thanks to everyone for sharing their stories here. It's relateable to look back at my childhood and see all the flags that were missed. As a kid I would directly bring issues to my parents and medical professionals to no avail. Decades later I'd learn there are now names for the behaviours (e.g. stimming) and issues (e.g. emotional dysregulation) I was struggling to understand.

I coped, as many do, by trying my best to force myself to fit the neurotypical mold our society expects, masking my personality and symptoms, burying emotions. It worked and didn't work. I inflicted a lot of uneccessary damage to my self esteem, sacrificed my physical health to soothe my tattered mental health.

I'm nowhere near FIRE, but I've somehow managed to be continuously employed and build a career and skillset that affords me more financial freedom than the average person. For a chunk of years I worked and lived in some of the poorest communities in Canada. The societal costs of poverty were a part of, and on display in my day to day life. Reflecting on how I would have turned out without my class and race privileges is a very sobering thought experiment for me.

Although myself, my parents, medical practitioners, and society as a whole were ignorant on what neurodiversity is and how to navigate it, I still had enough of a safety net to deal with the barriers that would have demolished me if I wasn't a cis white straight male from a middle class home.

One of the things I am most thankful for is how much research into neurodiversity and the brain as a whole has happened in my lifetime. I know in my bones that a few of my older family members had to walk this path alone and suffered in silence.

The Ologies podcast recently did a two part series on ADHD and I would highly, highly recommend each episode. This is what the podcast promises at the beginning and I believe they delivered in full:

Okay, Attention Deficit Neuropsychology. Let’s do it. Heads up, this episode gets very real. We talk
stats, and neuroscience, and personal experiences with ADHD. It also includes a mention about
rates of suicide and a very brief nod to self-harm; very brief. This episode doesn’t sugarcoat it, it
doesn’t condescend, but it illuminates the hell out of ADHD. Next week we’ll have more tips, and
hacks, and self-acceptance for you too.

https://www.alieward.com/ologies/adhd
https://www.alieward.com/ologies/adhd2

[partgypsy]

I just want to say, as a mom of a kid with dyslexia (also showed as having auditory processing disorder) and dyscalclia (and sometimes anxiety) it is reassuring to hear from all of you, experiences with diagnoses as well as how it affected and maybe was formative. MMM group is a kick ass group! With DD, ee had some extremely rough, low years. Some years they just gave her sheets to color in the corner and she missed entire years worth of work, despite meetings and explaining this is not what "accomodation" means. There were times I thought that by the time my daughter hit HS, she would drop out of school due to sheer frustration with its difficulty. Instead she is in her first year in HS. While half of her classes are scaled to her learning (English and math), rest are regular classes and she is getting A's and B's in all her classes. In some, 100's. It really hit home that people should NOT be defined by their disabilities or differences. There are a lot of intangibles that go into a person, and one thing that dd has, is grit. She can be emotional about some things, but tenacious in others. I would say she has a far better work habits than I do, maybe in main part because she HAD to. But that carries on into other parts of her life. Both my little brother and my ex have dyslexia, so there must be some genetic component. My ex, who was not dx but DEF has adhd, basically doesn't care about money. As long as he has some in his pocket, things are good. But he is so intelligent and informed and interested in other things. Basically if not interested, like trying to lead a horse to water... 
As far as myself, I have a lot of weird stuff regarding attention and concentration and focus. Basically if it's something I'm interested in, I can do it for hours and zone out everything else to the point of not hearing someone is calling my name. However if something doesn't interest me, it is very easy to be distracted. Sometimes I just have to use sheer will power to plow through stuff I don't feel like doing. I assume everyone else is like me, so I'm not sure if I'm on some diagnosis or not.

[partgypsy]

One of the other hallmarks of dyscalculia is difficulty with learning things like dance steps...I was once cajoled into trying out square dancing with some friends, and the poor elderly folks (most of the dance club) who knew what they were doing had to physically push me around to get me in the right place at the right time. I noped out pretty quick...I didn't want anyone to get hurt!

That is really interesting to know. I've done various types of dance classes for many years now, and not to sound mean, but it always puzzled me just how BAD some people are at it, even with incredibly beginner-level steps, and by beginner I'm talking "walk five steps forward in a straight line, starting on the left foot". And they were trying very hard! And they weren't mentally disabled! Just something wasn't working in their brains. So this makes a lot of sense.

this is ME! I can do like wii dance, where I watch what someone else does, and imitate it. But I cannot for the life of me learn a sequence of steps. I get completely mixed up. I love dancing so this is something frustrating to me.

[Moonwaves]

... Decades later I'd learn there are now names for the behaviours (e.g. stimming) and issues (e.g. emotional dysregulation) I was struggling to understand. ...

I first heard of stimming listening to a podcast in February. I have done it all my life and did not know there was a name for it. This is one of those things where I wish my parents weren't already dead as I'd like to know when or how I picked up on the fact* that I should be ashamed of it or at least not do it in front of anyone else. This, as well as the general improved understanding and discussion of neuro divergence in the world today have led to me reading and listening to a good bit about various ADHD and autism related stuff. I don't think I'll look for a diagnosis, I'm not convinced that I would get one, but when I discussed it last week with my therapist (not for the first time since February), I said that since it's a spectrum, I think I am neurotypical but very close to wherever the line is that crosses over into divergent. Am I just trying to be part of the club without actually being part of the club? Maybe but this feels like a comfortable position for me for now.


* Not actually a fact when I think about it.

The Ologies podcast recently did a two part series on ADHD and I would highly, highly recommend each episode. This is what the podcast promises at the beginning and I believe they delivered in full:

Okay, Attention Deficit Neuropsychology. Let’s do it. Heads up, this episode gets very real. We talk
stats, and neuroscience, and personal experiences with ADHD. It also includes a mention about
rates of suicide and a very brief nod to self-harm; very brief. This episode doesn’t sugarcoat it, it
doesn’t condescend, but it illuminates the hell out of ADHD. Next week we’ll have more tips, and
hacks, and self-acceptance for you too.

https://www.alieward.com/ologies/adhd
https://www.alieward.com/ologies/adhd2

I have been reading and listening to a lot on ADHD and autism in the past few months. I may even have heard about these podcast episodes here. They were really excellent. Although I had to keep rewinding and listening again to the first one - it was just soooooo much information and all of it really interesting.

[OtherJen]

One of the other hallmarks of dyscalculia is difficulty with learning things like dance steps...I was once cajoled into trying out square dancing with some friends, and the poor elderly folks (most of the dance club) who knew what they were doing had to physically push me around to get me in the right place at the right time. I noped out pretty quick...I didn't want anyone to get hurt!

That is really interesting to know. I've done various types of dance classes for many years now, and not to sound mean, but it always puzzled me just how BAD some people are at it, even with incredibly beginner-level steps, and by beginner I'm talking "walk five steps forward in a straight line, starting on the left foot". And they were trying very hard! And they weren't mentally disabled! Just something wasn't working in their brains. So this makes a lot of sense.

this is ME! I can do like wii dance, where I watch what someone else does, and imitate it. But I cannot for the life of me learn a sequence of steps. I get completely mixed up. I love dancing so this is something frustrating to me.

I failed my audition for the high school musical because I couldn't learn and retain a spoken sequence of dance steps quickly enough, despite seven years of dance training and a good vocal audition. I suspect that I have auditory processing disorder. I have a hard time retaining and understanding verbal instructions, a very hard time focusing on a conversation when there are other conversations around me, and don't process others' speech quickly at all, especially when it covers an unfamiliar or unexpected topic. Taking notes in lectures was always a nightmare, and even in grad school, I found it difficult to ask questions because I couldn't process the information that quickly. I was always happy when an instructor handed out photocopies of their powerpoint slides, because then I at least had a fighting chance of understanding the material as we covered it.

Edited to add that my parents and school officials were convinced that I had a hearing disorder when I was a child, which meant that I got dragged all over the county to specialists and had to undergo annual hearing testing at school with the little kids, even as an 8th grader (my school was grades 1-8), which was humiliating because it gave the other kids yet another reason to bully me. I now suspect that I spaced out during the first test and missed audio cues because I couldn't hear any background noise, as I don't have (and never have had) any noticeable functional hearing loss. Dead silence is as distracting to me as other conversations; I wasn't able to study at all in the quiet study areas of my college dorm.

[Hula Hoop]

Just revisiting this thread a couple of months after my ADHD diagnosis at age 50.  All of your comments are so wonderful, supportive and insightful. I should expect no less from my fellow mustachians. 

I very rarely visit the MMM site nowadays as, in retrospect, MMM was a hyperfocus of mine a couple of years ago but now I've moved on to other things (mainly reading about ADHD).  I always wondered why I did this.  I've been hyperfocused on so many random things throughout my life but then I move on.  I'm happiest when I'm in the midst of a hyperfocus.  Any of my other ADHDers in this boat?

Anyway, hyperfocusing on MMM was good for me as it forced me to get my finances in order and really think about some of our expenditures and what we might do if we no longer had to work.  At the same time, one of my main comorbidities is anxiety and reading too much MMM leads to me getting extremely anxious about spending 'unnecessary' money in an unproductive way. 

I was a neurodiverse (inattentive ADHD and dyslexia) girl in the 70s and 80s and was constantly told that I was "lazy", "spacey", "not living up to my potential" and "stupid".  While I wish that I'd been diagnosed earlier, I'm so glad that times have changed. 

BTW - I started meds a few weeks ago but they haven't made much of a difference.  I think my dose is too low. Going to see my shrink again next week.

[OtherJen]

I very rarely visit the MMM site nowadays as, in retrospect, MMM was a hyperfocus of mine a couple of years ago but now I've moved on to other things (mainly reading about ADHD).  I always wondered why I did this.  I've been hyperfocused on so many random things throughout my life but then I move on.  I'm happiest when I'm in the midst of a hyperfocus.  Any of my other ADHDers in this boat?

Yep. I was obsessed with personal finance a few years ago. I'm grateful for that because it did help us get our finances in order. Now, however, I know that more optimization is needed but can't bring myself to do it.

It's been so much fun to be completely immersed (one at a time) in closet organization, 1960s baroque pop music, knitting, traditional Christmas carols, organic chemistry, gluten-free baking, helper T cell biology, personality testing, Mad Men, Sweden, the Brontes... I currently have a mild obsession with optimizing my calendar, planner, and schedule systems, although I think that's in response to feeling extra chaotic right now.

I miss knitting. That hyperfocus tends to go in waves—the most recent one was at the start of the pandemic, when I finished a couple of sweaters and got a couple more mostly done. Maybe I'll try to get myself focused on that again and finish the damn sweaters. It's a great fidget tool when watching TV.

[Hula Hoop]

My 13 year old ADHD daughter is currently hyperfocused on crochet.  I just bought her a set of crochet hooks.

Your list of hyperfocuses sounds a lot like mine.

[Psychstache]

For all of you just joining the tribe as adults, I would highly recommend the book "You Mean I'm not Lazy, Stupid, or Crazy?!: The Classic Self-Help Book for Adults w/ Attention Deficit Disorder".

https://www.amazon.com/You-Mean-Lazy-Stupid-Crazy/dp/0743264487

[Just Joe]

One of the other hallmarks of dyscalculia is difficulty with learning things like dance steps...I was once cajoled into trying out square dancing with some friends, and the poor elderly folks (most of the dance club) who knew what they were doing had to physically push me around to get me in the right place at the right time. I noped out pretty quick...I didn't want anyone to get hurt!

That is really interesting to know. I've done various types of dance classes for many years now, and not to sound mean, but it always puzzled me just how BAD some people are at it, even with incredibly beginner-level steps, and by beginner I'm talking "walk five steps forward in a straight line, starting on the left foot". And they were trying very hard! And they weren't mentally disabled! Just something wasn't working in their brains. So this makes a lot of sense.

this is ME! I can do like wii dance, where I watch what someone else does, and imitate it. But I cannot for the life of me learn a sequence of steps. I get completely mixed up. I love dancing so this is something frustrating to me.

Exactly!!! Loving this discussion and learning so much.

Looking to get tested - actually get our oldest tested. Not sure who to look for. Local options are limited. So far I found therapists and one pill mill.

[Hula Hoop]

Just checking in on my neurodiverse MMM tribe.  How is everyone going?

I'm now on a higher dose of stimulant meds and I feel like they're working but OTOH it's all so subjective.  I still look at my phone quite a lot and have to plug it in on the other side of my office to get stuff done at work.  I'm also doing CBT with a therapist who is around 20+ years younger than me but surprisingly wise. 

I need to download some of those books that you've all recommended above.  Might be my summer reading as I'm still hyper focused on ADHD.

[getsorted]

Just checking in on my neurodiverse MMM tribe.  How is everyone going?

I tried out a starter dose of Adderall and I hated it. I would feel slightly zoned out and sleepy for about an hour after I took it, and then I really felt nothing at all, except that I would feel unable to eat and then feel cranky and shaky. Productivity was slightly negatively affected, if anything. Also it made my teeth hurt?

I don't think I really have it in me to undertake a find-the-right-med-and-dose journey right now. I decided to revisit the idea at my next six-month checkup and focus on non-medical interventions for the time being.

[Hula Hoop]

Adder@ll is actually not legal here in Italy so not an option for me.  My psychiatrist said that they're kind of scared of it here due to its addictive properties.  I'm on med!kinet which is methylphenidate - a different drug class altogether.  So if you want to give it another try, I'd suggest something from the methylphenidate drug class (ie. r!talin, c0ncerta etc in the US). 

sorry I'm using weird spellings but I know that, unfortunately, putting the real names of these drugs here could cause issues for the site admins.

It's not a panacea but it makes it possible for me to get work done in my pretty boring office job.

[StarBright]

Just checking in on my neurodiverse MMM tribe.  How is everyone going?

I tried out a starter dose of Adderall and I hated it. I would feel slightly zoned out and sleepy for about an hour after I took it, and then I really felt nothing at all, except that I would feel unable to eat and then feel cranky and shaky. Productivity was slightly negatively affected, if anything. Also it made my teeth hurt?

I don't think I really have it in me to undertake a find-the-right-med-and-dose journey right now. I decided to revisit the idea at my next six-month checkup and focus on non-medical interventions for the time being.

if your insurance covers it (or if you are willing to pay), there is a test called Genesight that tells you which ADHD and Anxiety/Depression drugs you are likely to metabolize well. My understanding is that drug efficacy can be based on brain chemistry AND metabolizing. So this test can look at half of the picture for you.

My brother spent over a decade trialing meds and most made things worse. When he did Genesight he found out that most meds were on his "red"/bad list. His psych prescribed a different med, off label because it was on his green/good list and it really helped.

We tried one stimulant with my son last year and it was a disaster (made his already weak impulse control worse, gave him tics, and his anxiety went off the charts), rather than go through the typical list and try them all, we are doing genesight this summer and are going to start with the green list.

[getsorted]

if your insurance covers it (or if you are willing to pay), there is a test called Genesight that tells you which ADHD and Anxiety/Depression drugs you are likely to metabolize well. My understanding is that drug efficacy can be based on brain chemistry AND metabolizing. So this test can look at half of the picture for you.

Oh, that's really interesting! I'll look into that. That's the thing about psych meds-- they go into the whole person, not just the diagnosis. Different drugs can pair poorly with your body, your lifestyle, or just your philosophy.

[Just Joe]

I've not been diagnosed with ADHD but may have "tendencies". Definitely reads like I might have it. Never been tested.

Pretty sure eldest would be diagnosed with it. Still procrastinating hunting for a doctor b/c it will be out of town and life has been busy.

Still - extended family had several diabetes diagnoses recently. Decided I might be "doomed" eventually and changed up my diet a bit. Also added a "Lion's Mane Mushroom" capsule to my morning routine based on a recommendation from here in the forums.

Maybe its a placebo effect or maybe its the reduced sugar in my daily diet but I like the results. Losing a bit of weight (another long term project), definitely feel more energetic, and clear headed. Getting stuff done which is good.

[StarBright]

if your insurance covers it (or if you are willing to pay), there is a test called Genesight that tells you which ADHD and Anxiety/Depression drugs you are likely to metabolize well. My understanding is that drug efficacy can be based on brain chemistry AND metabolizing. So this test can look at half of the picture for you.

Oh, that's really interesting! I'll look into that. That's the thing about psych meds-- they go into the whole person, not just the diagnosis. Different drugs can pair poorly with your body, your lifestyle, or just your philosophy.

Just to update this, We actually just got my son's results back yesterday! He is a red flag for all stimulants and all first line SSRIs apparently (which is really good to know!).

There are exactly two types of non-stimulant ADHD meds, and we'll start with one of those.

[Just Joe]

Just thought I would pop back in here to update anyone that is interested.

Eldest was diagnosed with ADHD. Discovered I was diagnosed with ADD in the 70s.

Local help has been limited. There is a clinic here that will prescribe meds and they do a little counseling but I have mixed feelings about the quality of that. Eldest is on meds now and says they can't tell a difference but I feel like DW and I can see a difference in their personality.

I'm still not on meds. Not sure my situation warrants it. What has helped is just self-educating and adapting to identified behaviors. Bad memory? Write stuff down. Procrastination? Some days I'll just lose that battle, other days I get things done by breaking everything down into smaller pieces. Just informed coping has helped.

Picked up a couple of useful links along the way to share: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OVS16Abo80&list=PLzBixSjmbc8eFl6UX5_wWGP8i0mAs-cvY
Should be a multi-part lecture.

https://www.adxs.org/en/
Its a German website that has an English version.

[Turtle]

I remember feeling a kinship to folks with autism way before it was realized that it was a spectrum.  I’m absolutely on it, along with several members of my dad’s side of the family.  No diagnosis for any of them as far as I know.  I’ve never been officially diagnosed, and haven’t any desire to devote either the time or the money to doing so. 

ADD/ADHD runs on my mom’s side of the family and a bunch of folks have been diagnosed.  I did pursue that one officially because the meds help me with work.

[Just Joe]

For work - that's one reason I would consider meds. I'm coping well enough on the personal side. Some days at work however are quite difficult in respect to the procrastination.