FIRE and divorce

[tempest_49]

Hi everyone.  A little bit of background: I’m a 30-something lapsed academic starting to write for a broader public.  I’ve been a reader of FIRE blogs for years and a lurker on this forum for almost that long. 

I’m also writing an article on divorce and FIRE.

The idea for this article was sparked by the recent thread about MMM’s divorce.  To be clear, I am *not* interested in the details of his divorce.  I think that’s their business, especially since they have a kid. Prying into that would be gross.

What I am interested in is the reaction to it and the role of divorce within FIRE more generally, precisely because so much of the allure of FIRE blogs is the image of a happy, intact nuclear family spending all of their time together.  (See MMM, Frugalwoods, etc.) I found the thread about MMM’s divorce interesting in that regard. Some people on the thread made the argument that FIRE communities don’t deal openly with divorce and the wreck it can make of your plans. Others argued that MMM ought to at least address his divorce, if only to alleviate the worry that the demands of FIRE can lead to divorce. Still others insist that the story doesn’t materially change anything - that FIRE was never meant to inoculate you against all disaster.

Really, I’d appreciate any thoughts or stories you’d like to share, whatever your opinion or experience. If you’re divorced, how did the split change your plans? Did it change your approach to finances when remarrying? Do any of you take the fear of divorce into your plans when building your stash? Did any of you have to go back to work after a divorce? For those of you who feel like divorce is a bit of a taboo topic in FIRE communities, why is that? If you care or don’t care about MMM’s divorce, why?

To be clear, this isn’t a hit job on FIRE communities or MMM or yet another piece about how those silly early retirees never take into account divorce/health care/inflation/etc/etc/etc. Clearly it has happened to people, and FIRE devotees do have thought about the scenario, so why not talk about it?

Feel free to PM, if you prefer.

Thanks!  I appreciate your time, thoughts, and understanding. 

[englishteacheralex]

This comment is going to be virtually worthless but I find the whole topic fascinating so here we go:

I'm interested in MMM's divorce, frankly, because of schadenfreude. I suspect I'm not the only one. The writing on the MMM blog is great and the information is compelling and helpful, but the tone has so much hubris it's hard for me to not get sucked into a giant schadenfreude-fest at the news of his divorce. There's no acknowledgment in the MMM blog of the role bad luck can play in personal finance. There's an oversimplification and a denial of anything other than one's own awesome or crappy life choices contributing to success or failure.

Money is one aspect of life. It's a big aspect, but it's not the only aspect. A massive pile of it does not guard against all misfortune or all character flaws. A massive pile of it does not guarantee happiness or a perfect family life. I'm not mad at the MMM blog; it's one voice among many and it's a fun read. But my favorite FIRE blogs are the ones that acknowledge that life can be messy and exasperating regardless of being FI. The Frugalwoods post about her PPD after her second baby, for example--that was awesome.

[Aelias]

Our Next Life did a good piece on planning for the possibility of divorce in FIRE.

https://ournextlife.com/2018/04/30/couples-real-financial-independence/

[El Jacinto]

This is something I've considered when balancing my financing beliefs with those of my wife when it comes to the budget. Almost never are two spouses on the exact same wavelength when it comes to finances (or anything). I lean towards wanting to do everything I can to reach financial independence as quickly as possible. My wife has more of a Dave Ramsey mindset. She is all for spending less than we make, but my frugality goes a little far for her. As a result, I've had to make compromises when it comes to the budget. That's fine - my marriage means far more to me than retiring a decade earlier.

MMM is just like anyone else on the internet with ideas. We can take what we like with and disregard what we don't like. His teachings don't have to be followed to the letter. There is no airtight plan for happiness, so no one's plan is guaranteed to work for you, or even them.

As far as planning for the potential of divorce, neither my wife nor I believe in divorce, except in extreme circumstances (infidelity, abuse). However, I plan to invest so much that it could be split in half and still cover my retirement.

[Prairie Stash]

Retirement and divorce, although uncommon, is not new. How many times in the past have we heard of a man (typically) retiring and being underfoot to his wife? We use cute terms to describe it but I think more then a few women have counted down the days. I think there are a lot of unhappy seniors that are stuck together, because of finances, that wish they could divorce.

I hope my marriage stays intact. However, if my marriage fails after FIRE there is a silver lining; I won't have to spend my senior years in a marriage that should have ended. The best part of FIRE is it accelerates the decision and allows everyone involved to move on and achieve happiness in the future. Although the prospect of divorce scares me, I'll take my chances.

Divorce is hard, it can destroy people. Staying married, when you should divorce, is much worse. Divorce only seems worse in the year that follows; unhappily married can be for the rest of your life.

[mxt0133]

When I first discovered FIRE I became obsessed with the finish line and I put it above everything else.  I forced my wife into a very constrained budget and judged her for not caring about our financial security.  This was early in our marriage, where we still did not know how to communicate with each other.  My motivation for FIRE was mostly anxiety due to the birth our first child.  We argued constantly and go into cycles of fighting and being neutral with each other for the next few years as child #2 and #3 were born. 

During that time our stash did grow significantly, I tried all the advice on this forum on how to get your spouse on board.  What amazes me through the whole ordeal was the fact that she didn't just get up and leave me.  I thought about divorce seriously a few times.  I would constantly judge her for what I thought was wasteful spending.  We still went on vacations and showered the kids with experiences and paid activities.  I would stress about the small purchases her and there, just because it wasn't in the plan.

Things started to turn around about a year ago, I was mentally exhausted from stressing about our finance and finally accepted that we were both responsible for our financial future.  So I relaxed on judging her and ask her to be in charge of our day to day finances.  Fortunately, some of habits that were implemented/forced on her actually stuck.  So we are still saving, but what would be considered a poor savings rate around here, but enough to still be able to retire earlyish. 

I really did loose sight of how important our marriage was and that it is something that you have to constantly work at and not just assume will always be there.  One thing that scares the hell out of me is the possibility of only being able to see my kids every other week or just on weekends.  I will suck it up no matter how bad our marriage gets to avoid that.  However, I think things are going in the right direction, with things that are within my control anyway.

So basically, our marriage was fortunate enough to survive my FIRE obsession.  We may never reach FIRE, that to me that's OK as it no longer the most important thing to me.  For the moment it is still a goal for me and I still plan on  winding down work before our kids leave the house.  We can either be FIRE by then or my wife will return to work when I begin winding down.

[partgypsy]

I maybe should refrain from posting because I am not a true mustachian in that I do not aim to retire early (other than age 62). I think divorce overall -sucks.  When you have two people whether both earning or both contributing and working as a team in one household it very much helps to save money and increase effective earning power. However the tenets of frugalism helps if you are married, it helps if you are single, and helps if you go through a divorce, because you learn ways of getting by on less. In my case because we also just counted on my earning when purchasing a house, I am able to stay in the house and in 10 years have a paid-off house. I do admit it is a little scary that financially it all falls on me, but the fears about my monthly income not being enough to cover bills and recurring costs so far has not been borne out. The biggest impact has been that we as a divorced set of parents, can no longer afford to have our youngest go to a private school for her learning disabilities. Though it really helped, financially it is out of reach. We can afford a tutor however, and are doing that. And it will impact how much we can help the oldest with college costs. It is a bit of a life lesson for all of us and we are adjusting in one degree or another.  Divorce will not affect my fire date, but it means I can't afford to segue to 32 hour work schedule like I wanted to for work/life balance before FIRE.   

[Zikoris]

I have no personal experience with this, being highly anti-marriage, but my parents provide an interesting case study. Money was always tight growing up because my mom was a prolific spender. They divorced when I was a teenager, and both re-partnered over the years with people more similar to them, and lived their preferred lifestyles and spending levels. Dad managed to retire early at 59, several years ago. Mom is still working now to afford her spending choices, and still struggles financially.

The lesson to be learned here seems to be that if you're frugal and your spouse is not, get out asap and you can still retire early.

[2Birds1Stone]

I will weigh in as someone who is about to get married, and not only discovered FIRE way before my future wife, but also was much more proactive about getting to the finish line over the past 6 years of our relationship.

Divorce scares the crap out of me.

Before our relationship got the the point where I had a good feeling we would be spending our lives together, I was already saving a healthy portion of my income, and making career choices and working hard with financial independence as a big life goal. I slowly introduced my SO to the idea of FI(RE) in 2012 while she was still in school. Not immediately on board, but not a huge spender it wasn't too difficult to get buy in. However, while I continued to put myself out there in the job market, and worked longer than desirable hours, she continued to pursue a degree in a low paying field (which she does not use, and never has), and didn't have that same fire under her ass to get her income/earning potential up.

This brings us to present time. I am earning 75-80% of our household income, and bring 80%+ of the assets to our combined NW. My income will continue to rise if I play the megacorp game, trading my soul for a retirement in my early 30's.

Getting married, while I have every intention of "forever do us part", scared the bajesus out of me. If we combine our financial picture upon marriage, and things *don't* work out a few years down the line. It could unravel a decade of working towards this goal.

Did want to point out, that we don't have kids, nor want any in the future. We split household chores/work very evenly without trying too hard. I don't think I could stomach paying alimony to someone who consciously chose low stress, low pay, work and the path of least resistance. Not to mention a division of assets.....

This brings me to a question for those who may be more knowledgeable than I........how effective would a prenup be for premarital assets in this type of situation? I'm ok earning more after marriage and those assets going 50/50.....but I've been at this since 2011, and have worked my ass off for some optionality in the future. 

[onlykelsey]

I will weigh in as someone who is about to get married, and not only discovered FIRE way before my future wife, but also was much more proactive about getting to the finish line over the past 6 years of our relationship.

Divorce scares the crap out of me.

Before our relationship got the the point where I had a good feeling we would be spending our lives together, I was already saving a healthy portion of my income, and making career choices and working hard with financial independence as a big life goal. I slowly introduced my SO to the idea of FI(RE) in 2012 while she was still in school. Not immediately on board, but not a huge spender it wasn't too difficult to get buy in. However, while I continued to put myself out there in the job market, and worked longer than desirable hours, she continued to pursue a degree in a low paying field (which she does not use, and never has), and didn't have that same fire under her ass to get her income/earning potential up.

This brings us to present time. I am earning 75-80% of our household income, and bring 80%+ of the assets to our combined NW. My income will continue to rise if I play the megacorp game, trading my soul for a retirement in my early 30's.

Getting married, while I have every intention of "forever do us part", scared the bajesus out of me. If we combine our financial picture upon marriage, and things *don't* work out a few years down the line. It could unravel a decade of working towards this goal.

Did want to point out, that we don't have kids, nor want any in the future. We split household chores/work very evenly without trying too hard. I don't think I could stomach paying alimony to someone who consciously chose low stress, low pay, work and the path of least resistance. Not to mention a division of assets.....

This brings me to a question for those who may be more knowledgeable than I........how effective would a prenup be for premarital assets in this type of situation? I'm ok earning more after marriage and those assets going 50/50.....but I've been at this since 2011, and have worked my ass off for some optionality in the future.

I had a pre-nup and may end up using it :/.  You can get a pretty basic pre-nup that basically says everything that came in to the marriage (asset or debt) is mine or yours, and everything that comes in during the marriage is ours and will be split.  That's what most states' laws default to anyway but you don't want to leave it to chance.  You can also say no alimony unless one of us stays at home with both parties' consent.  You can't provide for child support (I know you don't want them but just FYI) because support is for the kids' sake, and not the ex-partners'. 

You should probably each have your own lawyer, which makes it easier to enforce in court down the line, even if you're on the same page about what the agreement should say.

[partgypsy]

I will weigh in as someone who is about to get married, and not only discovered FIRE way before my future wife, but also was much more proactive about getting to the finish line over the past 6 years of our relationship.

Divorce scares the crap out of me.

Before our relationship got the the point where I had a good feeling we would be spending our lives together, I was already saving a healthy portion of my income, and making career choices and working hard with financial independence as a big life goal. I slowly introduced my SO to the idea of FI(RE) in 2012 while she was still in school. Not immediately on board, but not a huge spender it wasn't too difficult to get buy in. However, while I continued to put myself out there in the job market, and worked longer than desirable hours, she continued to pursue a degree in a low paying field (which she does not use, and never has), and didn't have that same fire under her ass to get her income/earning potential up.

This brings us to present time. I am earning 75-80% of our household income, and bring 80%+ of the assets to our combined NW. My income will continue to rise if I play the megacorp game, trading my soul for a retirement in my early 30's.

Getting married, while I have every intention of "forever do us part", scared the bajesus out of me. If we combine our financial picture upon marriage, and things *don't* work out a few years down the line. It could unravel a decade of working towards this goal.

Did want to point out, that we don't have kids, nor want any in the future. We split household chores/work very evenly without trying too hard. I don't think I could stomach paying alimony to someone who consciously chose low stress, low pay, work and the path of least resistance. Not to mention a division of assets.....

This brings me to a question for those who may be more knowledgeable than I........how effective would a prenup be for premarital assets in this type of situation? I'm ok earning more after marriage and those assets going 50/50.....but I've been at this since 2011, and have worked my ass off for some optionality in the future.

Your situation seems like a perfect example for a prenup. Just to let you know income assets accrued before marriage are not split in property division. When I was doing the worksheets for the divorce it is only during years of marriage that that info is put into it. Except that is is easy to mingle the assets or money post marriage which can cause legal headaches. So, keep those assets completely separate then you don't need a pre-nup. But it is definitely helpful in your case to have a pre-nup that states this is what each of us came into marriage with and we agree those assets are not split as marital property, both signed. In your case, any retirement income you have accrued on your own, I would keep in a separate account. After marriage do not put your money in pre marriage account, start a new account where you deposit your money. As a reminder, after you marry even if only you contribute to that new retirement account, it is considered joint property. 
https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/are-premarital-assets-protected-in-divorce

[2Birds1Stone]

Thank you Kelsey and partgypsy.

Do you know how that works with 401ks?

If I have $100k in my 401k the day I get married, how do I track how much is pre/post marital 5 years down the line? NAV's will change, would I just try to keep those shares untouched and go by number of shares of an underlying asset class?

[partgypsy]

You can keep that original money, and any passive accrued value of that money. I guess (I am not an accountant so I am totally guessing here) count the number of shares and then a calculation would need to be made on passive interest. It seems the clearest way is to keep in separate account, or shares of a mutual fund that is not overlapped/ invested in post-marriage. 

[Dee18]

J.D. Roth wrote about the financial aspects of his divorce on Get Rich Slowly. You might want to take a look at that.

[FIRE 20/20]

One of the things that frustrates me the most about the anti-FIRE articles is that they almost always seem to miss the fundamental point that spending less than you earn usually leads to *more* happiness, fulfillment, life options, and general well-being - not less.  I feel like a discussion about divorce in the context of FIRE needs to avoid this misconception.  If a relationship comes to an end is it better or worse for both parties to have the skills and knowledge that got them some portion of the way down the FIRE path?  Is it better or worse for them to have real assets (or at least less debt) to distribute than more debt?  In addition, I'm pretty sure that I've read that one of the main proximate causes of divorce is financial pressure.  Aside from mxt0133's experience, I think FIRE probably leads to more open communication about and less stress about finances.  Again, do you think a relationship will be more or less stable if there is money left over each month after the bills have been paid?  And if a divorce does happen, if the couple has been living paycheck to paycheck then splitting households will be a huge challenge financially while a FIRE couple is much more likely to be able to get by with the additional costs of living alone. 

I don't really have a comment on the actual questions you're asking; I don't know if there should be more discussion about the possibility of divorce in the FIRE community.  What I do think is that if the emphasis of the article is on the RE side of retirement of course you'll find that divorce wrecks people's plans.  That's just one more piece of carnage that divorce leaves in its wake.  I would at least touch on (if not primarily focus on) the FI side in this discussion.  In my opinion, living well under one's means is almost certain to lead to a better situation for any relationship.  It won't eliminate the possibility of divorce or reduce the emotional impact, but I have to think it would at least ease some of the financial pressures that come from splitting a household. 

[Cressida]

If you're married and pursuing FIRE, it makes sense to consider what the effect of a divorce would be, and decide if you want to alter your behavior to allow for that possibility. I haven't really altered my behavior, but I will say that I didn't consider dropping back to part-time work until I'd done the calculations and knew that my personal retirement accounts had grown to the point that they would support a frugal retirement if I didn't touch them until my early 60s. It's kind of an arbitrary point, but it made sense to me; I wouldn't have been comfortable bringing in a lower salary until I'd reached it.

That's just an example. Bottom line, I think it's a mistake to make plans that absolutely rely on remaining married. Or maybe not a mistake to make such plans, but a mistake not to additionally make alternative plans.

[MrThatsDifferent]

I discovered FIRE 2 years ago and yes, it played a role in the end of my relationship but not the primary reason. But FIRE changed me. It made me think of a different life and value new things. I was alone in my thinking and the plan to save and invest. It didn’t end us, but it contributed. Fortunately it also made it ok for me to be on my own.

[tempest_49]

Thanks so much to all of you!  I was a little nervous reading the responses, honestly, because it feels like it can be rude to jump into a community like an anthropologist.  I really appreciate the graciousness, thoughtfulness, and honesty. 

As a followup, have any of you who have FIREd noticed a difference in your relationship (positive or negative) between the stash building phase and FI?  I could imagine a scenario in which two people are drawn closer because of their shared pursuit of FIRE, only to find things fizzled after this huge goal has been achieved. (Similar to how empty nesters can realize they no longer have anything in common after their kids leave.)   

Thanks again for the responses and the suggestions.  I agree, the ONL piece on planning for divorce was great, and the point that divorce can actually be a good facilitated by FI is well taken. 

[onlykelsey]

Thank you Kelsey and partgypsy.

Do you know how that works with 401ks?

If I have $100k in my 401k the day I get married, how do I track how much is pre/post marital 5 years down the line? NAV's will change, would I just try to keep those shares untouched and go by number of shares of an underlying asset class?

I don't know. I suspect it's state law. I had a pretty shitty lawyer (on purpose, it wasn't a complex deal and I am a lawyer, so i went cheap) and we just listed the value of various accounts. I don't think mine would allow me to track individual shares in my 401(k). I'm not sure I'd want to, particularly, either.