FIRE all or nothing vs increasing opportunity to boost happiness

[Vilgan]

Hi all,

So one thing I've seen a lot of here and other places is an overwhelming focus only on saving. "When will I see the rewards?" Complaints about how its hard to be frugal when FIRE is so far away. People feeling envious about the spending of others. People trying to find motivation to "stick to it" for years/decades for the eventual payoff of FIRE.

I feel like FIRE is a great goal, but I'm not sure why people would be willing to work years at a job they don't enjoy in order to hit FIRE. What are you going to do when you FIRE? Watch TV all day? Aren't you probably going to do something you enjoy, albeit for less $$? Heck, it might actually end up being more $$ than the job you hate. Why wait years when you can make switch a lot sooner than that?

I'm personally nowhere near FIRE. I've started the walk towards it, but just starting that walk has afforded me opportunities and freedom to make choices that have significantly increased my happiness NOW rather than 5 or 10 or 15 years from now.

When I first graduated, I had hair on fire debt. The economy in 2009 made things worse so I ended up at a crappy job.

Later, when I had 3 months expenses saved and the worst (credit card) debt paid off, I was able to move to a better place with better opportunities. Income and happiness jumped significantly. When one employer moved to a crappy location, I felt comfortable leaving and finding a different one.

Finally, once I had all the debt paid off and 12 months expenses set aside I had WAY more freedom. I had always wanted to go into business for myself, but my original plan was to wait until I was FI before thinking about that. However, with 12 months expenses I had the freedom to try it out and it wouldn't be catastrophic if it went poorly. I took the leap and while it took a few months to get going, it took off after that. I'm significantly happier and make a heck of a lot more money than I ever would have as an employee, but I'm not sure I would have had the courage to try it w/o that buffer of money knowing that I would have time to recover and find another job if it did end up going poorly.

While not everyone's dream is to start a business or whatever, it seems like many people see FIRE as their answer to a job they dislike. Do you really need to wait that long? Are there other changes that can be embraced now instead? Take a year to retrain? Move to a better place? Quit and go on a job search when you have the time/energy to do it justice?

I think the answer will be different for everyone, but it seems like each step towards FIRE provides opportunity to improve one's life and ignoring all those opportunities and only focusing on the end goal of FIRE might lead to less happiness as a whole.

[tj]

There's a lot of variables, such as how far away one is from FIRE, how much more the current job pays than the replacement job.

In your case, you put yourself in a position to go for it by saving a year of expenses, and you just went for it. That's both ballsy and awesome!

Not everyone has a passion that can be turned into a heavy money-making activity.  And not everyone has the success that you had.

For me personally, for example, I get super excited about doing my own taxes, but would I want to spend 40 hours or more per week doing people's taxes? I'm not so sure that hobbies can necessary be turned into lucrative income.

The exciting thing about FIRE for me is the freedom to be able to do a whole bunch of different things - to not have to be reliant on a steady income and limited by this specific location and this specific job. If I switched to self-employment, in some cases that would have more location independence, but I'd have less time independence and I suspect a lot more stress. I feel like self-employment would require significantly more of my free time than working an 8 hr job somewhere, so I'd rather work and save up, but I don't hate my job like some people seem to.


BTW, the path to FIRE does not have to be one of unhappiness. There's plenty of free time after work and on weekends to be happy, even if your job might be soul sucking.

[steveo]

it seems like many people see FIRE as their answer to a job they dislike. Do you really need to wait that long?

I see FIRE as an answer to a job I dislike but also to all jobs that involve working 40 odd hours per week + commute + standard corporate BS. When I FIRE or go to part time work because I have a stash of cash then I can do more of what I like everyday.

[Northwestie]

It's a good philosophical question.  And given the diversity of this site's users, there are likely any number of replies.

My take - if I hated my job I would move on.  Period.  Money is great but I put a higher price on my sanity.  It's served me well and for 30 years I've loved my work.   I had to put up with some crappy pay to get some experience, but those times were a ton of field work so it felt like I was getting paid for having fun.

IMO life is too short to put up with a BS job - if you don't like it why are you there.  Money?   No thanks.

But - some folks find themselves in circumstances I suppose that don't allow such an attitude(?).  I don't know.  Maybe the best advice is not to go down that road early in life to find yourself stuck later.

[GrowingTheGreen]

I'm always excited to hear stories about people trying out their own business and succeeding.  Congratulations on your success!

Can you share more details of your story?  What you're doing, earnings, how long it took to get there, etc.

[azure975]

I've thought about this often, since I'm in a position where my job is tolerable but definitely not something I love. I would be willing to take a pay cut (even a large one) and delay FIRE if it meant having a job I loved, but the problem is that I don't know what kind of job I would love (or even mostly enjoy). I've thought about perhaps moving into the non-profit space and getting out of corporate America, but there's no telling whether I'd like that any better and then all I'd have to show for it is less money. I've changed careers twice btw so it's not that I haven't tried. It's true that I haven't tried self-employment, but I think I will save that for when I'm mostly FIREd since I'm pretty risk averse. Would be interested in hearing other people's thoughts on whether they were able to find a "dream job."

[Ricky]

OP, I totally agree that if one has the hunch that they can significantly boost their income by leaving their current job (whether that's starting a business or just pursuing a higher paying career) then they definitely should. The problem is that most people don't have that kind of motivation or the plans necessary for making such a move. If you quit with a year's worth of expenses, you need to be working everyday and have a clear plan in mind. You can't just quit and expect it to happen, otherwise you were better off at the job. So, it just totally depends on the person and everyone is different.

You can't just say, "quit your job! Go live your dream now!" It doesn't work like that. Whomever that is directed towards must know what their dream is first and foremost. Second, they must be good at it or willing to work hard to get to it. Third, they must know or have a feeling that there is a market for something related to their dream. It's more rare than it sounds because so many variables are at play. Thus, how could you blame someone for sticking with a job they don't love but know that it will get them what they want with enough patience? I also think that working at a job you don't particularly like, as long as you're saving and planning your eventual escape, IS living for the now. A person in that position just needs to look for the simple pleasures and small motivators in life to keep going.

Ultimately, I do agree that our time here is short and it shouldn't be spent doing things we hate doing. And since nothing lasts forever, there's no harm in taking some savings and doing some heavy experimentation to find out what you truly enjoy.

[Green_Thing]

I see no use in getting to FIRE if my life sucks on the way there. That's like financial anorexia. I am currently looking at changing jobs to something with less stress and more meaning... But less money. Worth it? Well, what's the worst that could happen? I go back to my former employer with my tail between my legs and accept my job back with a nice raise. What's the best that could happen? I am still making way, way more money than I need, and I'm at a job that doesn't cause such so much stress that it makes me sick. Because what's the point of having a crappy* life now just to hang on with my claws and promise to enjoy life later? (*Note my definition of crappy has jack to do with how much money I can spend).

[faramund]

I've thought about this often, since I'm in a position where my job is tolerable but definitely not something I love. I would be willing to take a pay cut (even a large one) and delay FIRE if it meant having a job I loved, but the problem is that I don't know what kind of job I would love (or even mostly enjoy). I've thought about perhaps moving into the non-profit space and getting out of corporate America, but there's no telling whether I'd like that any better and then all I'd have to show for it is less money. I've changed careers twice btw so it's not that I haven't tried. It's true that I haven't tried self-employment, but I think I will save that for when I'm mostly FIREd since I'm pretty risk averse. Would be interested in hearing other people's thoughts on whether they were able to find a "dream job."

I'm very close to having a dream job, although I think of it as more, "I can't imagine a different job that I would be more suited to". i.e. it pays well, doesn't have too many hours, and I find its work mentally stimulating and rewarding - but, in spite of that, I more prefer the days when I don't have to go to work.

In practical terms, it means I'm not in a great rush to retire, but I want to retire, so at the moment I'm targeting end of 2022, when I'm almost 53.

I can do that, without changing my lifestyle very much, and so I'm really not very motivated to work 'hard' at cutting expenses. I've always been a don't buy expensive cars, don't take expensive holidays, don't buy new phones, mainly eat home food sortof guy, so naturally I've saved money, and will continue to.

But, as examples, I do have cable TV, but on an AUS $60 per month ($US 48 per month) package - mainly because I like to watch football; every Friday is take out dinner night...

In contrast, if I hated my job, I'm pretty sure I could trim back on my expenses to retire tomorrow, but given my 7 year plan, and how much I like my job, I don't really see any point.

[markbrynn]

Because what's the point of having a crappy* life now just to hang on with my claws and promise to enjoy life later? (*Note my definition of crappy has jack to do with how much money I can spend).

It seems like this kind of sentiment is a common theme at the moment on the forum. From what I read of the actual blog and most (but not all) of the commenters on the forum, the point of FIRE has never been to "live a crappy life now." The point is to live a wonderful life now and later, but to realise that spending loads of money is not necessary to live a wonderful life.

There are a couple of mistakes I think some people make:
1. To overdo the frugality. The strongest messages are aimed at people who are wasting a lot of money unnecessarily and whilst in debt. Nobody has ever said that you should live in a box under the highway and eat leather shoes (though it would definitely cost less money).

2. Make a direct connection between money spent and quality of life. There's lots of advice on saving (e.g. washing out zip lock bags), but what's not said explicitly is that you should be spending most of your time having fun. Develop good habits, but then ignore your investment accounts and go out and enjoy your life. If you need a kayak or piano to enjoy life, go and buy it, but don't buy both and go out to dinner 6 nights a week and take expensive vacations and buy expensive clothes and build a fancy gaming computer and and and .

3. Mistake being responsible/pragmatic with accepting toxic situations. There are the occasional comments that say someone should stick with a terrible job for 5 more years rather than protect their health and sanity, but by and large most people can make the distinction between a truly lousy situation and someone who is just lazy or irresponsible. The reality for most people is that you need to work for a number of years doing something you wouldn't choose to do every day if it weren't for the money. It's better if you find the work rewarding or enjoyable, but sometimes the work is just tolerable and that's okay.