Author Topic: Financial Samurai  (Read 17990 times)

Ron Scott

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #150 on: February 17, 2024, 11:55:15 AM »
.

Gen Z and young Millennials:
I've never met a bigger group of multitaskers (they will watch youtube while working etc).

I am a boomer and must say this is not a new phenomena. When I was a kid the term “multitasking” wasn’t used much. We just called it not paying attention.

eyesonthehorizon

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #151 on: February 17, 2024, 12:29:08 PM »
@JupiterGreen - that was a great breakdown. As a middle millennial I think I agree that it's a good characterization of media literacy styles by generation, because as vague as you have to be to depict millions of people in broad strokes there are some legitimate changes over time in the formative socialization we get toward media. My first brush with the internet was Woodpecker Guy, it felt like a miracle to be connected with the five other people in the world who cared about [niche interest] when I felt all my life I must the only one still alive....

@Ron Scott - what you may not realize about "multitasking" as "not paying attention" is our bosses explicitly demand we do it - I've been hassled for "not multitasking enough" & wasting company time by watching the mandatory regulatory training video with undivided attention, even taking notes, instead of half-listening while mostly clearing my email inbox & doing paperwork as was apparently expected. That's just the pace that's normalized. But plenty of people used to keep (entertainment) talk radio on in the auto shop back in the day, too.

Below i give you an archive of my favorite FIRE blog, Brave new life.

https://web.archive.org/web/20190331030058/http://www.bravenewlife.com/

I want an update so bad!
It took me a while to work back around to this from all the other tabs I had open, researching & wondering whether to respond in detail to other posts here, but I'm glad you posted this, because it reminded me how different a community we're in now than we started with.

FI & especially RE are extraordinary - they are rare at nearly every socioeconomic bracket. People who achieve them are automatically extraordinary in some way - at the bare minimum, they don't do the most-ordinary thing, which is to spend everything they make.

There's usually at least one other stripe of extraordinariness about them - either something boring like a large income, or something interesting like a willingness to work very hard, or live very lean or very nontraditionally. Often there are several, like all of those along with this blogger's intense thoughtfulness.

If this thread started by discussing a troll advocating diametrically opposite advice from mustachianism, now that we're sitting on essentially a decade & a half of boom times (give or take the first quarter of covid in 2020 & 2022), this is a perfect counterpoint from 2015 & back, especially the linked post about realizing being rich from 2011, when things were much more dire & the sun seemed very far away for many of us.

The ability to pursue a difficult thing & somewhat safely expect meaningful results from it is frankly a privilege - much of humanity has figuratively or literally slaved their lives away for nothing, by no fault of their own, only accident of birth. Many still do. If you can get results, it seems worthwhile to view them as meaningful, & make the most of them. What matter if someone else has more, if you can have enough?

Thanks for that dose of original-brand mustachian philosophy.

lhamo

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #152 on: February 18, 2024, 08:36:53 AM »
OMG, I did the thing I should never do and clicked on one yahoo finance article that I sense was about Sam Dogen and.... it was.  And now he is popping up all over my Google News and Facebook feed (thanks so much, robot overlords /s)

TLDR so other don't have to suffer this fate.  The dude's latest shtick seems to be that because they decided to buy their "dream house" in the Bay area, suddenly they no longer have enough passive income to support their ridiculously extravagant lifestyle and he is going to have to go back to work.

Um.  If you have any kind of financial literacy maybe you don't impulsively buy a $2mill+ house that requires you to withdraw so much from your stash? 

As for the FW, I am one of the people annoyed by them and I think in my case it is due to them trying to claim that they had average non-profit salaries (uh, no...).  I mean, STBX and I maxed out at around $150k/year combined, and that was VERY good for mid-level non-profit managers, especially in the expat context.  We were relatively frugal and saved a high percentage of our incomes.  But if I were blogging or podcasting or otherwise trying to give people advice about how to get to FIRE, it would be extremely un-transparent if I did not mention that our BIG lever was some fortunate property investments.  Long term readers here may remember that I used to refer to our Beijing condo as our "lottery ticket in the sky."  It was.  Using lots of cash from the sale of a NYC co-op we more than doubled our money on between 2000-2003 (the down-payment of which came from the equivalent of an early inheritance from my parents) we bought a really nice apartment for $800k at the bottom of the 2009 market dip in Beijing.  By 2016/2017 when we sold it was worth nearly 3x that.  Did we have lots in retirement and college savings that helped us feel comfortable FIREing before we had that money locked in?  Yes.  But it was the cash from the sale of that property that really made our FIRE life possible.  And hence, one of the reasons I never did start a blog or podcast or whatever about how to FIRE was that my path to FIRE was paved with privilege and luck that most people have no access to. 

tj

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #153 on: February 18, 2024, 08:47:37 AM »
OMG, I did the thing I should never do and clicked on one yahoo finance article that I sense was about Sam Dogen and.... it was.  And now he is popping up all over my Google News and Facebook feed (thanks so much, robot overlords /s)

TLDR so other don't have to suffer this fate.  The dude's latest shtick seems to be that because they decided to buy their "dream house" in the Bay area, suddenly they no longer have enough passive income to support their ridiculously extravagant lifestyle and he is going to have to go back to work.

Um.  If you have any kind of financial literacy maybe you don't impulsively buy a $2mill+ house that requires you to withdraw so much from your stash? 


Same shit different day. @chasesfish wrote this about him four years ago:

"Every six months there's the CNBC article that'll be posted saying "I tried FIRE but now I need to go back to work".

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/fire-bloggers-fizzling/msg2680464/#msg2680464


Zikoris

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #154 on: February 18, 2024, 08:58:11 AM »
I can't speak to the high-income haters as that's not my "demographic" (other than occasionally being accused of having secret undisclosed income), but one of the things that really gets me about the low-spending haters is how they see specific expenses as a "aha, gotcha!" versus literally those things being literally the point. I'm talking about the people who say "That rent/grocery bill/etc is unrealistically low" and thinking that's somehow a gotcha. But obviously a person who is average/lower income and spends market rate on all their categories is not going to be able to amass wealth and retire early.

It's like people are expecting some sort of black magic math, where somehow a person can retire early without either having to increase their income or spend less, and a person who does either of those things (even fully disclosed) renders the concept of FIRE moot.

tj

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #155 on: February 18, 2024, 09:04:59 AM »
I can't speak to the high-income haters as that's not my "demographic" (other than occasionally being accused of having secret undisclosed income), but one of the things that really gets me about the low-spending haters is how they see specific expenses as a "aha, gotcha!" versus literally those things being literally the point. I'm talking about the people who say "That rent/grocery bill/etc is unrealistically low" and thinking that's somehow a gotcha. But obviously a person who is average/lower income and spends market rate on all their categories is not going to be able to amass wealth and retire early.

It's like people are expecting some sort of black magic math, where somehow a person can retire early without either having to increase their income or spend less, and a person who does either of those things (even fully disclosed) renders the concept of FIRE moot.

Yeah, it makes no sense at all. It's like people just want to complain about their finances, but don't actually want to take action to improve them

Metalcat

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #156 on: February 18, 2024, 09:31:29 AM »
I can't speak to the high-income haters as that's not my "demographic" (other than occasionally being accused of having secret undisclosed income), but one of the things that really gets me about the low-spending haters is how they see specific expenses as a "aha, gotcha!" versus literally those things being literally the point. I'm talking about the people who say "That rent/grocery bill/etc is unrealistically low" and thinking that's somehow a gotcha. But obviously a person who is average/lower income and spends market rate on all their categories is not going to be able to amass wealth and retire early.

It's like people are expecting some sort of black magic math, where somehow a person can retire early without either having to increase their income or spend less, and a person who does either of those things (even fully disclosed) renders the concept of FIRE moot.

Yep.

I found MMM shortly after I started working and I started tackling massive debt at the exact same time that I tackled massive weight loss.

The process was pretty much exactly the same mental process. Cut out unnecessary spending/empty calories, the big culprits are obvious, but the smaller adjustments add up to a lot as well.

It's hard to out-earn bad spending, just as it's hard to out-exercise bad eating. And you can only cut so much before you start feeling the impact of deprivation.

Really, same process.

And hilariously, I got the exact same reactions from people about both processes. People ALWAYS wanted some kind of black-magic math where I could share with them the "secret" that would somehow unlock the way to not change anything about their lifestyle and still get the results I was getting.

What blew my mind was the eye-rolling "gotcha" reaction whenever I would tell people what I was doing.

As in: *eye roll* "well of course you can save XY% of your income, you drive a used car, and live in a small townhouse in a shitty part of town, and don't buy meat, and shop used clothes, and don't take expensive vacations."

And I'm like..."yeah...that's how you save money and get out of 6 figure student debt..."

But they were looking for some other (???) solution aside from not spending on what they spend on???

It was the same with weight loss. Everyone and their dog asked me "how did you do it??" And I would explain that I ate a primarily plant-based diet, 3 meals a day, no snacking, and virtually no sugar, plus regular, modest exercise.

And they would get visibly pissed off at me. Like, they would be actively offended that I wouldn't tell them some magical secret like "I ate broccoli soup every morning before sunrise" or something equally ridiculous.

It was like "ugh...OF COURSE you lost weight eating mostly vegetables and no sugar...ugh, useless advice."

As if doing exactly what they know works somehow invalidates it?? As if the default assumption is that it's totally unrealistic to expect people to do what everyone knows works.

The attitude is kind of "if it was realistic for people to do what everyone knows works, then everyone would do it, so the fact that no one does it is evidence that it's not realistic" so when a person actually does what everyone already knows works, it's rejected as "unrealistic."

The only way a "realistic" person could accomplish these things is ***MAGIC*** (???)

curious_george

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #157 on: February 18, 2024, 12:45:12 PM »
People often assume some special sauce, or black magic, or that there must be some gotcha, because if people realized that the real special sauce is something that is incredibly boring and unexciting that anyone can accomplish, like eating a plant based diet and not snacking on sugary snacks, or reducing the size of one's dwelling space, then suddenly they feel like they need to be responsible if they want to accomplish results in their own life.

People often don't like being responsible, doing the hard things like letting go of their addiction to sugar, or examining why they feel the need to have a giant house and if they feel like they need the house to accept themselves and see themselves as successful. It's easier just to complain and assume everyone else who is successful and happy or who have accomplished what you want in life has some secret 'gotcha' or magic pill.

So that's what they do instead of making progress in their own life. They complain and look for 'gotchas' and magic.

People don't realize that some of the most basic, boring things like not eating sugar or being fine and accepting yourself even though you live in a small dwelling *is* the magic.

Omy

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #158 on: February 18, 2024, 02:16:57 PM »
For me, the magic comes down to "self discipline".

Any time I'm whining about why I can't accomplish a goal, it's usually because I'm not being disciplined enough to do the things I need to do consistently to get there.

It has nothing to do with what the Frugalwoods or Financial Samarai or MMM tell me...or don't tell me. I take what I can and discard the rest.

If their lack of transparency or their apparent hypocrisy triggers you, stop following them. But you may also want to dig a little deeper and try to figure out why you're feeling triggered. The people who throw up their hands and give up on their goals because they've been mislead are only hurting themselves.

Metalcat

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #159 on: February 18, 2024, 02:22:32 PM »
For me, the magic comes down to "self discipline".

Any time I'm whining about why I can't accomplish a goal, it's usually because I'm not being disciplined enough to do the things I need to do consistently to get there.

It has nothing to do with what the Frugalwoods or Financial Samarai or MMM tell me...or don't tell me. I take what I can and discard the rest.

If their lack of transparency or their apparent hypocrisy triggers you, stop following them. But you may also want to dig a little deeper and try to figure out why you're feeling triggered. The people who throw up their hands and give up on their goals because they've been mislead are only hurting themselves.

I'm not at all "triggered" by FW, I just hold an opinion that she was misleading and I don't respect that.

I feel pretty comfortable holding negative opinions about the conduct of public figures when they do things I think are sketchy.

There are also a lot of things that are said and done in this world by folks who I don't actively "follow," and yet I still feel it's appropriate to take issue with.

I've never followed Andrew Tate and yet I'm very bothered by what he espouses.

dandarc

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #160 on: February 18, 2024, 02:23:06 PM »
Real fun when someone thinks they've stumbled on to the real magic but in reality they're just finally starting to pay attention to whatever it is they are doing at all.

I kinda triggered an end to a 10-year friendship a couple of years ago when I told a guy what I really thought of his day-trading dogecoin scheme - He opened with "wanna talk about stocks?" and I quickly found out that in reality he was actually just in the "investing is gambling" phase and I was not polite in how I shut that particular conversation down.

spartana

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #161 on: February 18, 2024, 02:47:13 PM »
I can't speak to the high-income haters as that's not my "demographic" (other than occasionally being accused of having secret undisclosed income), but one of the things that really gets me about the low-spending haters is how they see specific expenses as a "aha, gotcha!" versus literally those things being literally the point. I'm talking about the people who say "That rent/grocery bill/etc is unrealistically low" and thinking that's somehow a gotcha. But obviously a person who is average/lower income and spends market rate on all their categories is not going to be able to amass wealth and retire early.

It's like people are expecting some sort of black magic math, where somehow a person can retire early without either having to increase their income or spend less, and a person who does either of those things (even fully disclosed) renders the concept of FIRE moot.
Yeah I've gotten the low income "nope you can't do that so you're lying" thing too. Even when I've posted the reasons why I can live on such a small amount and even copies of my basic expenses for things like utilities, property taxes, insurance, vehicle expenses, food, etc to show that, in my case, it's doable to have my basic non-discretionary expenses in the $500/month range. Discretionary whatever you want it be (mine varies ALOT and is mostly for travel but averages about $500 - $1000/month).

But it didn't matter. I gave up trying to explain or show proof because I really didn't care. I'll still add in basic info like paid off house, no debt, no dependants, single, free or low cost medical, low taxes, low utilities, budget dirtbagger travel and entertainment, etc  but don't really care anymore.

When I first joined the MMM forum I was already FIRE and had been for about 10 years so had already been thru the "No way! That's poverty level life! No one can live like that". ummm....no. I actually feel sorry for the FS if he thinks $350k is barely enough to scrape by in a HCOL area.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2024, 02:51:00 PM by spartana »

Omy

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #162 on: February 18, 2024, 03:07:55 PM »
For me, the magic comes down to "self discipline".

Any time I'm whining about why I can't accomplish a goal, it's usually because I'm not being disciplined enough to do the things I need to do consistently to get there.

It has nothing to do with what the Frugalwoods or Financial Samarai or MMM tell me...or don't tell me. I take what I can and discard the rest.

If their lack of transparency or their apparent hypocrisy triggers you, stop following them. But you may also want to dig a little deeper and try to figure out why you're feeling triggered. The people who throw up their hands and give up on their goals because they've been mislead are only hurting themselves.

I'm not at all "triggered" by FW, I just hold an opinion that she was misleading and I don't respect that.

I feel pretty comfortable holding negative opinions about the conduct of public figures when they do things I think are sketchy.

There are also a lot of things that are said and done in this world by folks who I don't actively "follow," and yet I still feel it's appropriate to take issue with.

I've never followed Andrew Tate and yet I'm very bothered by what he espouses.

Agreed. My comment wasn't directed at you at all.

Metalcat

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #163 on: February 18, 2024, 03:20:38 PM »
For me, the magic comes down to "self discipline".

Any time I'm whining about why I can't accomplish a goal, it's usually because I'm not being disciplined enough to do the things I need to do consistently to get there.

It has nothing to do with what the Frugalwoods or Financial Samarai or MMM tell me...or don't tell me. I take what I can and discard the rest.

If their lack of transparency or their apparent hypocrisy triggers you, stop following them. But you may also want to dig a little deeper and try to figure out why you're feeling triggered. The people who throw up their hands and give up on their goals because they've been mislead are only hurting themselves.

I'm not at all "triggered" by FW, I just hold an opinion that she was misleading and I don't respect that.

I feel pretty comfortable holding negative opinions about the conduct of public figures when they do things I think are sketchy.

There are also a lot of things that are said and done in this world by folks who I don't actively "follow," and yet I still feel it's appropriate to take issue with.

I've never followed Andrew Tate and yet I'm very bothered by what he espouses.

Agreed. My comment wasn't directed at you at all.

I guess I just haven't noticed many negative posts about FW that I would describe as "triggered" in this thread, and I was sharing my perspective as one of those negative commenters.

Maybe I've missed something, but the folks who seem most upset are the ones who feel the need to defend FW, as some people have quite the affection/respect for her.

bluecollarmusician

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #164 on: February 18, 2024, 03:49:34 PM »
Yeah I've gotten the low income "nope you can't do that so you're lying" thing too.

Yep- this was an eye opener for me for sure, @spartana
When I saw all the online "haters" saying this about ERE content (which didn't seem like a stretch because at the time BCW and I were living on less than Jacob and his wife - but in a LCOL area) I was at first confused that people couldn't even believe it was possible.  It helped me start to realize just how different the realities that we inhabit side-by-side are.

I know Robert Kyosaki is a polarizing figure... but one the the positive take aways I got from him was that people will say "you can't do that, that's a lie, etc.etc." even when people are clearly doing "that thing" (whatever it may be).  So for a long time now when I see people saying you "can't do something" that people are obviously doing, it's like a trigger to my spidey-sense to observe what the seemingly "impossible"  magic is... and usually it's just a willingness to do something a little unconventional, and put in a bit of work.  That's the only magic I have run into... but it's been mighty effective in my sample size of 1.

Longwaytogo

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #165 on: February 18, 2024, 04:51:19 PM »
I understand all these comments aren't directly to me, but just for clarity-

I'm not a "low spend hater" or a "high income hater".

My dislike of the Frugal woods was solely because they were dishonest.

For me, the magic comes down to "self discipline".

Any time I'm whining about why I can't accomplish a goal, it's usually because I'm not being disciplined enough to do the things I need to do consistently to get there.

It has nothing to do with what the Frugalwoods or Financial Samarai or MMM tell me...or don't tell me. I take what I can and discard the rest.

If their lack of transparency or their apparent hypocrisy triggers you, stop following them. But you may also want to dig a little deeper and try to figure out why you're feeling triggered. The people who throw up their hands and give up on their goals because they've been mislead are only hurting themselves.

I'm not at all "triggered" by FW, I just hold an opinion that she was misleading and I don't respect that.

I feel pretty comfortable holding negative opinions about the conduct of public figures when they do things I think are sketchy.

There are also a lot of things that are said and done in this world by folks who I don't actively "follow," and yet I still feel it's appropriate to take issue with.

I've never followed Andrew Tate and yet I'm very bothered by what he espouses.

Agreed. My comment wasn't directed at you at all.

I guess I just haven't noticed many negative posts about FW that I would describe as "triggered" in this thread, and I was sharing my perspective as one of those negative commenters.

Maybe I've missed something, but the folks who seem most upset are the ones who feel the need to defend FW, as some people have quite the affection/respect for her.

I'm also not "triggered" by the Fruaglwoods, I just dislike them.  But maybe my posts are coming out that way. I only offered my initial post/thoughts on them as a counterpoint to all the folks defending them. And yes I haven't followed or read about them since their book came out and the truth was revealed about their unusually high salaries (2018 or 2019 I think) but I had previously been reading their 2-3 posts a week for 4 years so it did seem pretty shocking at that time.

I actually refrained from commenting on the first few threads about the Frugal woods, and should have done that here too.

Live and learn!

curious_george

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #166 on: February 18, 2024, 05:03:09 PM »
For me, the magic comes down to "self discipline".

Any time I'm whining about why I can't accomplish a goal, it's usually because I'm not being disciplined enough to do the things I need to do consistently to get there.

It has nothing to do with what the Frugalwoods or Financial Samarai or MMM tell me...or don't tell me. I take what I can and discard the rest.

If their lack of transparency or their apparent hypocrisy triggers you, stop following them. But you may also want to dig a little deeper and try to figure out why you're feeling triggered. The people who throw up their hands and give up on their goals because they've been mislead are only hurting themselves.

I'm not at all "triggered" by FW, I just hold an opinion that she was misleading and I don't respect that.

I feel pretty comfortable holding negative opinions about the conduct of public figures when they do things I think are sketchy.

There are also a lot of things that are said and done in this world by folks who I don't actively "follow," and yet I still feel it's appropriate to take issue with.

I've never followed Andrew Tate and yet I'm very bothered by what he espouses.

Agreed. My comment wasn't directed at you at all.

I guess I just haven't noticed many negative posts about FW that I would describe as "triggered" in this thread, and I was sharing my perspective as one of those negative commenters.

Maybe I've missed something, but the folks who seem most upset are the ones who feel the need to defend FW, as some people have quite the affection/respect for her.

For what it's worth - if you feel like I was upset at all or defending FW I was not. I actually never followed her blog so don't completely understand the controversy even.

I jumped in because it seemed like someone was frustrated by their own conscious decisions to delay their FIRE goal, and was then sort or attacking the idea of FIRE for low income or average, ordinary people.

I also sort of feel the need to point out if someone's anger is simply hurting themselves.

Which - if you have consciously made a well thought choice in life, fully aware of the trade offs, and are then upset about your own choice, it seems like the anger isn't particularly useful to hold on to.

It's sort of like if someone hurts you in life, and they are dead now or otherwise out of your life, it might be useful to forgive the person so that you can let go of the anger. Not for their sake, but for your sake.

I have always felt a lot of empathy for the suffering of other people and an overwhelming and perhaps illogical desire to help other people to not suffer in life.

I am generally really not an angry person usually. Except with very certain specific people for some reason. And it's always a very interesting learning experience for me to understand why I feel threatened by very specific sorts of people.

Metalcat

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #167 on: February 18, 2024, 05:14:46 PM »
For me, the magic comes down to "self discipline".

Any time I'm whining about why I can't accomplish a goal, it's usually because I'm not being disciplined enough to do the things I need to do consistently to get there.

It has nothing to do with what the Frugalwoods or Financial Samarai or MMM tell me...or don't tell me. I take what I can and discard the rest.

If their lack of transparency or their apparent hypocrisy triggers you, stop following them. But you may also want to dig a little deeper and try to figure out why you're feeling triggered. The people who throw up their hands and give up on their goals because they've been mislead are only hurting themselves.

I'm not at all "triggered" by FW, I just hold an opinion that she was misleading and I don't respect that.

I feel pretty comfortable holding negative opinions about the conduct of public figures when they do things I think are sketchy.

There are also a lot of things that are said and done in this world by folks who I don't actively "follow," and yet I still feel it's appropriate to take issue with.

I've never followed Andrew Tate and yet I'm very bothered by what he espouses.

Agreed. My comment wasn't directed at you at all.

I guess I just haven't noticed many negative posts about FW that I would describe as "triggered" in this thread, and I was sharing my perspective as one of those negative commenters.

Maybe I've missed something, but the folks who seem most upset are the ones who feel the need to defend FW, as some people have quite the affection/respect for her.

For what it's worth - if you feel like I was upset at all or defending FW I was not. I actually never followed her blog so don't completely understand the controversy even.

I jumped in because it seemed like someone was frustrated by their own conscious decisions to delay their FIRE goal, and was then sort or attacking the idea of FIRE for low income or average, ordinary people.

I also sort of feel the need to point out if someone's anger is simply hurting themselves.

Which - if you have consciously made a well thought choice in life, fully aware of the trade offs, and are then upset about your own choice, it seems like the anger isn't particularly useful to hold on to.

It's sort of like if someone hurts you in life, and they are dead now or otherwise out of your life, it might be useful to forgive the person so that you can let go of the anger. Not for their sake, but for your sake.

I have always felt a lot of empathy for the suffering of other people and an overwhelming and perhaps illogical desire to help other people to not suffer in life.

I am generally really not an angry person usually. Except with very certain specific people for some reason. And it's always a very interesting learning experience for me to understand why I feel threatened by very specific sorts of people.

Lol, TL, you silly bunny, stop assuming things I say are me being critical of you.

I'm also not being critical of anyone who is defending FW. I was making the point that the people who do persistently defend FW tend to seem quite bothered by the criticisms.

One of FW's most staunch and vocal defenders here is @Dicey, for whom I have nothing but the utmost affection and respect.

However, she certainly has far more intensity behind her defense of FW than I have about my criticisms. I can also see her perspective, and I can see why fans of FW would be so bothered since much of the criticism outside of here (and a bit in here too) is unnecessarily cruel to a person who has had a lot of value in this community.

I personally never liked FW's blog and couldn't stand her writing style, so I feel none of this protectiveness because I have felt no emotional investment in her over the years. But I understand why others do.

I just don't necessarily share their opinions.

curious_george

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #168 on: February 18, 2024, 05:54:46 PM »
For me, the magic comes down to "self discipline".

Any time I'm whining about why I can't accomplish a goal, it's usually because I'm not being disciplined enough to do the things I need to do consistently to get there.

It has nothing to do with what the Frugalwoods or Financial Samarai or MMM tell me...or don't tell me. I take what I can and discard the rest.

If their lack of transparency or their apparent hypocrisy triggers you, stop following them. But you may also want to dig a little deeper and try to figure out why you're feeling triggered. The people who throw up their hands and give up on their goals because they've been mislead are only hurting themselves.

I'm not at all "triggered" by FW, I just hold an opinion that she was misleading and I don't respect that.

I feel pretty comfortable holding negative opinions about the conduct of public figures when they do things I think are sketchy.

There are also a lot of things that are said and done in this world by folks who I don't actively "follow," and yet I still feel it's appropriate to take issue with.

I've never followed Andrew Tate and yet I'm very bothered by what he espouses.

Agreed. My comment wasn't directed at you at all.

I guess I just haven't noticed many negative posts about FW that I would describe as "triggered" in this thread, and I was sharing my perspective as one of those negative commenters.

Maybe I've missed something, but the folks who seem most upset are the ones who feel the need to defend FW, as some people have quite the affection/respect for her.

For what it's worth - if you feel like I was upset at all or defending FW I was not. I actually never followed her blog so don't completely understand the controversy even.

I jumped in because it seemed like someone was frustrated by their own conscious decisions to delay their FIRE goal, and was then sort or attacking the idea of FIRE for low income or average, ordinary people.

I also sort of feel the need to point out if someone's anger is simply hurting themselves.

Which - if you have consciously made a well thought choice in life, fully aware of the trade offs, and are then upset about your own choice, it seems like the anger isn't particularly useful to hold on to.

It's sort of like if someone hurts you in life, and they are dead now or otherwise out of your life, it might be useful to forgive the person so that you can let go of the anger. Not for their sake, but for your sake.

I have always felt a lot of empathy for the suffering of other people and an overwhelming and perhaps illogical desire to help other people to not suffer in life.

I am generally really not an angry person usually. Except with very certain specific people for some reason. And it's always a very interesting learning experience for me to understand why I feel threatened by very specific sorts of people.

Lol, TL, you silly bunny, stop assuming things I say are me being critical of you.

I'm also not being critical of anyone who is defending FW. I was making the point that the people who do persistently defend FW tend to seem quite bothered by the criticisms.

One of FW's most staunch and vocal defenders here is @Dicey, for whom I have nothing but the utmost affection and respect.

However, she certainly has far more intensity behind her defense of FW than I have about my criticisms. I can also see her perspective, and I can see why fans of FW would be so bothered since much of the criticism outside of here (and a bit in here too) is unnecessarily cruel to a person who has had a lot of value in this community.

I personally never liked FW's blog and couldn't stand her writing style, so I feel none of this protectiveness because I have felt no emotional investment in her over the years. But I understand why others do.

I just don't necessarily share their opinions.

Lol - fair enough.

I think I really really misjudged you at first and am still sort of recalibrating and understanding what you mean at times.

Thanks for the clarification.

I've been getting a lot better at expressing my feelings IRL now, and have noticed my communication with people and understanding of other people has greatly improved.

Metalcat

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #169 on: February 18, 2024, 06:08:59 PM »


Lol - fair enough.

I think I really really misjudged you at first and am still sort of recalibrating and understanding what you mean at times.

Thanks for the clarification.

I've been getting a lot better at expressing my feelings IRL now, and have noticed my communication with people and understanding of other people has greatly improved.

Didn't I promise at one point that if I was ever saying something about you that I would make sure to be clear that it was about you??  If I'm remembering wrong, then I'll commit to that now. I guarantee that I am *never* vaguely talking about you, I will always specify if I am. Deal?

curious_george

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #170 on: February 18, 2024, 06:35:02 PM »


Lol - fair enough.

I think I really really misjudged you at first and am still sort of recalibrating and understanding what you mean at times.

Thanks for the clarification.

I've been getting a lot better at expressing my feelings IRL now, and have noticed my communication with people and understanding of other people has greatly improved.

Didn't I promise at one point that if I was ever saying something about you that I would make sure to be clear that it was about you??  If I'm remembering wrong, then I'll commit to that now. I guarantee that I am *never* vaguely talking about you, I will always specify if I am. Deal?

Haha - deal. I will try and commit that to memory.

And I will try and not project things onto you from my childhood that I never should have been projecting on to you to begin with. :)

bluecollarmusician

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #171 on: February 18, 2024, 07:56:47 PM »
@Longwaytogo I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts here- it's been very helpful for me, thanks.

That goes for all- this is a good conversation more me.

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #172 on: February 18, 2024, 09:13:26 PM »
For me, the magic comes down to "self discipline".

Any time I'm whining about why I can't accomplish a goal, it's usually because I'm not being disciplined enough to do the things I need to do consistently to get there.

It has nothing to do with what the Frugalwoods or Financial Samarai or MMM tell me...or don't tell me. I take what I can and discard the rest.

If their lack of transparency or their apparent hypocrisy triggers you, stop following them. But you may also want to dig a little deeper and try to figure out why you're feeling triggered. The people who throw up their hands and give up on their goals because they've been mislead are only hurting themselves.

I'm not at all "triggered" by FW, I just hold an opinion that she was misleading and I don't respect that.

I feel pretty comfortable holding negative opinions about the conduct of public figures when they do things I think are sketchy.

There are also a lot of things that are said and done in this world by folks who I don't actively "follow," and yet I still feel it's appropriate to take issue with.

I've never followed Andrew Tate and yet I'm very bothered by what he espouses.

Agreed. My comment wasn't directed at you at all.

I guess I just haven't noticed many negative posts about FW that I would describe as "triggered" in this thread, and I was sharing my perspective as one of those negative commenters.

Maybe I've missed something, but the folks who seem most upset are the ones who feel the need to defend FW, as some people have quite the affection/respect for her.

For what it's worth - if you feel like I was upset at all or defending FW I was not. I actually never followed her blog so don't completely understand the controversy even.

I jumped in because it seemed like someone was frustrated by their own conscious decisions to delay their FIRE goal, and was then sort or attacking the idea of FIRE for low income or average, ordinary people.

I also sort of feel the need to point out if someone's anger is simply hurting themselves.

Which - if you have consciously made a well thought choice in life, fully aware of the trade offs, and are then upset about your own choice, it seems like the anger isn't particularly useful to hold on to.

It's sort of like if someone hurts you in life, and they are dead now or otherwise out of your life, it might be useful to forgive the person so that you can let go of the anger. Not for their sake, but for your sake.

I have always felt a lot of empathy for the suffering of other people and an overwhelming and perhaps illogical desire to help other people to not suffer in life.

I am generally really not an angry person usually. Except with very certain specific people for some reason. And it's always a very interesting learning experience for me to understand why I feel threatened by very specific sorts of people.

Lol, TL, you silly bunny, stop assuming things I say are me being critical of you.

I'm also not being critical of anyone who is defending FW. I was making the point that the people who do persistently defend FW tend to seem quite bothered by the criticisms.

One of FW's most staunch and vocal defenders here is @Dicey, for whom I have nothing but the utmost affection and respect.

However, she certainly has far more intensity behind her defense of FW than I have about my criticisms. I can also see her perspective, and I can see why fans of FW would be so bothered since much of the criticism outside of here (and a bit in here too) is unnecessarily cruel to a person who has had a lot of value in this community.

I personally never liked FW's blog and couldn't stand her writing style, so I feel none of this protectiveness because I have felt no emotional investment in her over the years. But I understand why others do.

I just don't necessarily share their opinions.
Funny, I'm not even a big FW fan. I just do not appreciate the way people have piled on them. It's ironic to me that so many people sound just like the FIRE haters.

Living on almost nothing when you have firehoses of cash coming your way takes a discipline that most people don't possess. I find that admirable. Unlike Jacob Lund Fisker, they reported their entire household spending, not just conveniently arranged portions of it. Would I pay Liz to review my finances? Not on your life.

Metalcat

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #173 on: February 19, 2024, 05:15:03 AM »

Funny, I'm not even a big FW fan. I just do not appreciate the way people have piled on them. It's ironic to me that so many people sound just like the FIRE haters.

Living on almost nothing when you have firehoses of cash coming your way takes a discipline that most people don't possess. I find that admirable. Unlike Jacob Lund Fisker, they reported their entire household spending, not just conveniently arranged portions of it. Would I pay Liz to review my finances? Not on your life.

My mistake then, for some reasons I remembered you as one of the fans who used to rave about her writing style. I know someone here I really like loved her style, which is why I tried reading it, but I absolutely could not stand it.

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #174 on: February 19, 2024, 05:45:42 AM »
When people realized that MMMs annual spending reports didn't include what he considered business expenses, a lot of people were upset. I remember being rather put off myself by this trick of accounting.

I could have chosen to remain annoyed and given up on the message of frugality and FIRE (and blamed his lack of transparency for my disillusionment) - and stopped following him.

Instead, I dug deeper and really thought about it. The IRS allows this type of accounting and our tax code actually encourages it.

I then realized I was counting three houses worth of expenses in our annual spend without counting the rental income. If I instead only counted the expenses of our principal residence, our annual spend went WAY down and our plans for FIRE were way more resilient than I thought. Major light bulb moment - and my annoyance with MMM was the catalyst.

It also caused me to take a deeper look at my business income as a realtor. It turned out I wasn't really making the 6 figure income that I thought I was. My brain was counting all the commission checks (yay, I made $120k last year) but I wasn't really mentally accounting for the expenses, fees, and taxes on my schedule C and SE.  When I actually calculated my net hourly wage as an independent contractor it was a bit disappointing.

I wasn't saying that we shouldn't have feelings or get annoyed. Just don't throw out the baby with the bath water.


curious_george

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #175 on: February 19, 2024, 06:19:16 AM »
@Longwaytogo I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts here- it's been very helpful for me, thanks.

That goes for all- this is a good conversation more me.

This is like the most wholesome place on the internet to hang out.

My Facebook feed is full of people openly trashing people who they previously physically assaulted and other such nonsense.

Meanwhile MMM forums is like. 'Yes, no, wait, do we disagree here? Here is what I think. No I'm not angry. Here are my feelings. We all love and appreciate each other'.

Maybe this is just a sign I need to start blocking some people on Facebook, lol.

Metalcat

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #176 on: February 19, 2024, 06:23:14 AM »
When people realized that MMMs annual spending reports didn't include what he considered business expenses, a lot of people were upset. I remember being rather put off myself by this trick of accounting.

I could have chosen to remain annoyed and given up on the message of frugality and FIRE (and blamed his lack of transparency for my disillusionment) - and stopped following him.

Instead, I dug deeper and really thought about it. The IRS allows this type of accounting and our tax code actually encourages it.

I then realized I was counting three houses worth of expenses in our annual spend without counting the rental income. If I instead only counted the expenses of our principal residence, our annual spend went WAY down and our plans for FIRE were way more resilient than I thought. Major light bulb moment - and my annoyance with MMM was the catalyst.

It also caused me to take a deeper look at my business income as a realtor. It turned out I wasn't really making the 6 figure income that I thought I was. My brain was counting all the commission checks (yay, I made $120k last year) but I wasn't really mentally accounting for the expenses, fees, and taxes on my schedule C and SE.  When I actually calculated my net hourly wage as an independent contractor it was a bit disappointing.

I wasn't saying that we shouldn't have feelings or get annoyed. Just don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

Agreed, also, a lot of frustration comes from a lack of explanation.

I wasn't at all bothered by his "business spending" categorization, because at the time I had a whole slew of activities that were business expenses that I would never have paid for if I had to pay taxable dollars for them.

So I immediately understood the concept of certain spending only existing because it's classified as business spending.

That said, there's a worthwhile conversation around that that was missed. A lot of my purely "business" spending was actually my social life. I had a private club membership and an expense account for dinners.

I was regularly going out for great meals with friends in my profession because that was literally my side hustle.

As much as I would NEVER spend that kind of money on restaurants myself, once I wasn't in that line of work, I did end up having to carve out spending for going out with friends.

That whole experience created a ton of reflection on spending and what it means to me. And MMM missed an opportunity to explore a lot of that.

Instead he just stuck with his party line of "I'm still spending the same amount, see??" Which was, although arguably technically correct, definitely incomplete and misleading.

And definitely missed some really meaningful reflection.

MMM's latest post about spending more really cements that he's not terribly comfortable with self-reflective, meaningful conversation about his current financial situation. And I get that.

The themes of his persona have been so clearly distilled, it's complicated to evolve past them as a writer. Not as a person, he's clearly figured that out and seems to be doing great and knows how he wants to spend, and how he wants to categorize that spending to himself.

But it can be difficult for the writing to evolve with the reality, especially with the public sentiment turning against FIRE, it can be hard to know what to emphasize and what not to.

It's unfortunate because I see so much opportunity to talk about the FI side more. He is so beyond FI and has been for a long time. That changes a person and their engagement with the world. There's so much meaning that could be explored, but as I said, it can be very hard to evolve a writing persona.

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #177 on: February 19, 2024, 06:29:33 AM »
Funny, I'm not even a big FW fan. I just do not appreciate the way people have piled on them. It's ironic to me that so many people sound just like the FIRE haters.

Living on almost nothing when you have firehoses of cash coming your way takes a discipline that most people don't possess. I find that admirable. Unlike Jacob Lund Fisker, they reported their entire household spending, not just conveniently arranged portions of it. Would I pay Liz to review my finances? Not on your life.

I assumed you were a fan also based on your constant defense of them.

I think I'm realizing where some of my disagreement comes from though. Your assuming their low spending still shows discipline and that they reported it all. I assume nothing of their expenses.

Once they were caught lying or drastically under reporting their income or whatever you want to call it I can't assume they told the truth about anything. For all I know they have a 30K a year nanny or Mr. FW flies back and forth from Boston to Vermont in a gold plated helicopter, who knows!!

Like the old saying - Once  a liar always a liar, or if you'll lie about one thing you'll lie about anything.

That's why I said in my first response to you here (which you didn't reply to but I assume you saw) was that I don't resent them I dismiss them/the blog. It could be an entertaining piece of fiction but I'd rather read Harry Potter or Game of thrones or something if I'm after fiction.

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #178 on: February 19, 2024, 06:35:01 AM »
@Longwaytogo I really appreciate you sharing your thoughts here- it's been very helpful for me, thanks.

That goes for all- this is a good conversation more me.

Thanks, and I have enjoyed most of this thread as well

When people realized that MMMs annual spending reports didn't include what he considered business expenses, a lot of people were upset. I remember being rather put off myself by this trick of accounting.

I could have chosen to remain annoyed and given up on the message of frugality and FIRE (and blamed his lack of transparency for my disillusionment) - and stopped following him.

I was annoyed by that as well, but I guess less then FW. Maybe because it was after MMM was already FI and I felt he was honest about the climb to FI so I cared less about the after. Or I just have a soft spot here because I enjoy the Forums, who knows!

Def goes to show everyone can perceive the same info much differently based on their own lived experience or opinions.


Longwaytogo

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #179 on: February 19, 2024, 06:45:05 AM »
Agreed, also, a lot of frustration comes from a lack of explanation.

I wasn't at all bothered by his "business spending" categorization, because at the time I had a whole slew of activities that were business expenses that I would never have paid for if I had to pay taxable dollars for them.

So I immediately understood the concept of certain spending only existing because it's classified as business spending.

That said, there's a worthwhile conversation around that that was missed. A lot of my purely "business" spending was actually my social life. I had a private club membership and an expense account for dinners.

I was regularly going out for great meals with friends in my profession because that was literally my side hustle.

As much as I would NEVER spend that kind of money on restaurants myself, once I wasn't in that line of work, I did end up having to carve out spending for going out with friends.

That whole experience created a ton of reflection on spending and what it means to me. And MMM missed an opportunity to explore a lot of that.

Instead he just stuck with his party line of "I'm still spending the same amount, see??" Which was, although arguably technically correct, definitely incomplete and misleading.

And definitely missed some really meaningful reflection.

That's a great realization that you had about the socializing that even though it was a business expense at the time it needed to be replaced later on the personal end.

One of my biggest expenses/vices is Travel. And I always thought it was frustrating when MMM would say how unnecessary travel was and how bad flying was for the environment was and then have such little to nothing spending on it in his annual reports.

But THEN you'd be like what about the 2 weeks you spent in Ecuador or the week at Fincon or the week you went snowboarding with friends but wrote an article about the frivolousness of skiing so they were all "business expenses". If your doing  a month of that travel for work, but it's actually fun then that could be scratching your travel itch so you don't feel like you need travel/change of pace.

But if and when the Blog ends will you then literally sit in Longmont 365 days a year?

I also thought it was very unfair to his wife/kid like Sorry guys no vacations this year but Dad will spend a month hanging with his FIRE blogger friends all over the world. I also remember one line from one of the posts when he was away and how his wife/son "Snuck a carry out pizza and Redbox on him" like I'm sure that was a bit tongue in cheek but your spending how much on this vacation and you bring up they decided to carry out?? LOL


mathlete

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #180 on: February 19, 2024, 06:48:53 AM »
I wasn't saying that we shouldn't have feelings or get annoyed. Just don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

This is a great sentiment. On balance. FIRE Bloggers have done more good than harm.

It’s just that, if you’re a 1 per center who buys a cool lifestyle, and then you get popular by overstating the role that grit and personal sacrifice played in getting that lifestyle… people are inevitably going to burn themselves out trying to get there on grit and sacrifice, when the money is what mattered most. And this isn’t hypothetical*.

At the end of the day, it’s buyer beware, of course. Nobody should listen to someone just because they paid the $50 or whatever to register a domain. But this type of obfuscation doesn’t help anyone, so I’d just as soon see it stop.

For what it’s worth, I was never “burned” by any of these sites. So there’s no personal animosity from me.

Metalcat

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #181 on: February 19, 2024, 07:35:07 AM »
Agreed, also, a lot of frustration comes from a lack of explanation.

I wasn't at all bothered by his "business spending" categorization, because at the time I had a whole slew of activities that were business expenses that I would never have paid for if I had to pay taxable dollars for them.

So I immediately understood the concept of certain spending only existing because it's classified as business spending.

That said, there's a worthwhile conversation around that that was missed. A lot of my purely "business" spending was actually my social life. I had a private club membership and an expense account for dinners.

I was regularly going out for great meals with friends in my profession because that was literally my side hustle.

As much as I would NEVER spend that kind of money on restaurants myself, once I wasn't in that line of work, I did end up having to carve out spending for going out with friends.

That whole experience created a ton of reflection on spending and what it means to me. And MMM missed an opportunity to explore a lot of that.

Instead he just stuck with his party line of "I'm still spending the same amount, see??" Which was, although arguably technically correct, definitely incomplete and misleading.

And definitely missed some really meaningful reflection.

That's a great realization that you had about the socializing that even though it was a business expense at the time it needed to be replaced later on the personal end.

One of my biggest expenses/vices is Travel. And I always thought it was frustrating when MMM would say how unnecessary travel was and how bad flying was for the environment was and then have such little to nothing spending on it in his annual reports.

But THEN you'd be like what about the 2 weeks you spent in Ecuador or the week at Fincon or the week you went snowboarding with friends but wrote an article about the frivolousness of skiing so they were all "business expenses". If your doing  a month of that travel for work, but it's actually fun then that could be scratching your travel itch so you don't feel like you need travel/change of pace.

But if and when the Blog ends will you then literally sit in Longmont 365 days a year?

I also thought it was very unfair to his wife/kid like Sorry guys no vacations this year but Dad will spend a month hanging with his FIRE blogger friends all over the world. I also remember one line from one of the posts when he was away and how his wife/son "Snuck a carry out pizza and Redbox on him" like I'm sure that was a bit tongue in cheek but your spending how much on this vacation and you bring up they decided to carry out?? LOL

This was actually the most reflective part of my experience.

I was going out to luxury restaurants and the private club sometimes multiple times a week, while with my spouse we were almost never going to restaurants and eating extremely inexpensive food.

It prompted so many discussions around what is luxury, what is worth spending on, etc.

I personally don't love high-end restaurant food, and my spouse whines, like a lot, if he's made to eat anything I haven't cooked for more than a day or two.

A lot of people from the outside saw me living this luxury lifestyle while he was "stuck at home" eating rice and beans and felt bad for him and thought it was shitty that I was "getting" to go out, but not "letting" him do the same. However, my spouse goes to bed earlier than most primary school children, even now, he rarely makes an appearance on a night out, he wasn't missing anything.

As for the "life of luxury", it was a full-on pantomime, it was my job to appear aspirational, while hilariously having zero interest in the trappings of luxury that I was modeling, and ironically, while spending hundreds per meal of company money, I was espousing frugality.

It was literally hilarious.

And that's the thing, without a blogger exploring more of the meaning side of things, we can't actually understand it, and then it's very easy to misinterpret, and because it's the internet, the default is to assume negative motivations.

Because I like and understand MMM (as much as one can understand an internet stranger), I have a lot of patience for why he discusses things the way he does, although I'm highly critical, but from what I think is a respectful position, the same way I would be critical of a good friend's writing.

Perhaps because I've never liked FW, I'm less patient with what looks to me like intentional misrepresentation. I also have a personal thing about high earners cosplaying as middle class, which is VERY common. But I've spent a lot of my career yelling at wealthy folks that they are NOT actually middle class, and that they do NOT understand what that lived experience is like for actual middle class folks.

It bothers me immensely.

One of the things I appreciate most about MMM was how he illustrated so effectively that you can spend an absolute fortune and still just obtain what looks and feels like a "normal" middle class life. This is why everyone feels "middle class," because you can spend enormous sums and still generally just obtain roughly the same quality of life as an extremely frugal person.

The cost premium of "middle class" luxury is so extreme compared to the increase in value that you get, it's batshit insane how much a person can spend while getting only fractional increases in quality of life. The upper limit of spending on a lifestyle that just feels like a pimped-up version of "normal" is batshit insane.

FS is quite beautifully explaining this with his trolling. He's not at all wrong, it is INCREDIBLY expensive to afford a "normal" middle class lifestyle if you opt for the upper range. You actually do have to be seriously rich to afford it.

That has been MMM's point this entire time.

 

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #182 on: February 19, 2024, 07:46:26 AM »
One of the things I appreciate most about MMM was how he illustrated so effectively that you can spend an absolute fortune and still just obtain what looks and feels like a "normal" middle class life. This is why everyone feels "middle class," because you can spend enormous sums and still generally just obtain roughly the same quality of life as an extremely frugal person.

The cost premium of "middle class" luxury is so extreme compared to the increase in value that you get, it's batshit insane how much a person can spend while getting only fractional increases in quality of life. The upper limit of spending on a lifestyle that just feels like a pimped-up version of "normal" is batshit insane.

FS is quite beautifully explaining this with his trolling. He's not at all wrong, it is INCREDIBLY expensive to afford a "normal" middle class lifestyle if you opt for the upper range. You actually do have to be seriously rich to afford it.

That has been MMM's point this entire time.
This is an accurate TL;DR of the entire MMM blog.

People will work themselves to the point of ulcers to live in a house behind a gate, to have an SUV 12 inches longer than another SUV, to have gone to a "prestigious" college, to own real diamonds mined by children instead of CZ, to have an apple watch so they don't have to pull the apple iphone out of their pocket to read a text, to not have to cook or do dishes, etc.

GilesMM

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #183 on: February 19, 2024, 11:07:37 AM »
One of the things I appreciate most about MMM was how he illustrated so effectively that you can spend an absolute fortune and still just obtain what looks and feels like a "normal" middle class life. This is why everyone feels "middle class," because you can spend enormous sums and still generally just obtain roughly the same quality of life as an extremely frugal person.

The cost premium of "middle class" luxury is so extreme compared to the increase in value that you get, it's batshit insane how much a person can spend while getting only fractional increases in quality of life. The upper limit of spending on a lifestyle that just feels like a pimped-up version of "normal" is batshit insane.

FS is quite beautifully explaining this with his trolling. He's not at all wrong, it is INCREDIBLY expensive to afford a "normal" middle class lifestyle if you opt for the upper range. You actually do have to be seriously rich to afford it.

That has been MMM's point this entire time.
This is an accurate TL;DR of the entire MMM blog.

People will work themselves to the point of ulcers to live in a house behind a gate, to have an SUV 12 inches longer than another SUV, to have gone to a "prestigious" college, to own real diamonds mined by children instead of CZ, to have an apple watch so they don't have to pull the apple iphone out of their pocket to read a text, to not have to cook or do dishes, etc.


I’m not sure where to draw the line on middle class but having a dedicated cleaner and cook and owning jewelry is borderline upper class in the US. If the staff live on premises, it probably is upper class. Staff cost an absolute fortune in the US compared to many countries and even Europe where one can pick up a relatively cheap Eastern European au pair with a husband who can drive and do yard work. On most other continents (except Oz), it makes no sense NOT to have a driver, cleaner, cook, gardener, etc since it is so affordable relative to a western income.

Metalcat

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #184 on: February 19, 2024, 11:11:43 AM »
One of the things I appreciate most about MMM was how he illustrated so effectively that you can spend an absolute fortune and still just obtain what looks and feels like a "normal" middle class life. This is why everyone feels "middle class," because you can spend enormous sums and still generally just obtain roughly the same quality of life as an extremely frugal person.

The cost premium of "middle class" luxury is so extreme compared to the increase in value that you get, it's batshit insane how much a person can spend while getting only fractional increases in quality of life. The upper limit of spending on a lifestyle that just feels like a pimped-up version of "normal" is batshit insane.

FS is quite beautifully explaining this with his trolling. He's not at all wrong, it is INCREDIBLY expensive to afford a "normal" middle class lifestyle if you opt for the upper range. You actually do have to be seriously rich to afford it.

That has been MMM's point this entire time.
This is an accurate TL;DR of the entire MMM blog.

People will work themselves to the point of ulcers to live in a house behind a gate, to have an SUV 12 inches longer than another SUV, to have gone to a "prestigious" college, to own real diamonds mined by children instead of CZ, to have an apple watch so they don't have to pull the apple iphone out of their pocket to read a text, to not have to cook or do dishes, etc.


I’m not sure where to draw the line on middle class but having a dedicated cleaner and cook and owning jewelry is borderline upper class in the US. If the staff live on premises, it probably is upper class. Staff cost an absolute fortune in the US compared to many countries and even Europe where one can pick up a relatively cheap Eastern European au pair with a husband who can drive and do yard work. On most other continents (except Oz), it makes no sense NOT to have a driver, cleaner, cook, gardener, etc since it is so affordable relative to a western income.

Yeah, we've had multiple threads debating "class" that have spun around in pointless circles. Everyone has a different take on it informed by their own experiences and metrics.

What is interesting though is that so many people adjust their personal understanding of "class" to be able to categorize themselves as middle class.

So whatever definition people use to define "upper class," they will happily twist themselves into pretzels to generate definitions that exclude themselves.

It's quite a fascinating phenomenon.

Meanwhile I keep referring to my household as "wealthy" and my DH keeps insisting we're middle class, which we are by just about every economic metric, but I feel really wealthy because of our lifestyle.

Moustachienne

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #185 on: February 19, 2024, 11:17:16 AM »
...
It's unfortunate because I see so much opportunity to talk about the FI side more. He is so beyond FI and has been for a long time. That changes a person and their engagement with the world. There's so much meaning that could be explored, but as I said, it can be very hard to evolve a writing persona.

Agree completely! I'd love to see MMM reflect on the challenges and opportunities of FI life with the same hard-nosed humorous clarity he brought to the journey to get there. Dr.Doom's post in 2021 was a compelling example of a "warts and all" account of post-FI life. But that was his last post. https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-update/ 

From quite a few posts on this forum and my own experience, reaching FI with or without RE, can leave us feeling a bit like the dog who caught the car. Now what? A whole new journey beckons and it would be great fun to have a committed MMM-type along for the ride.  I read and enjoy a few post-retirement blogs but none give "face-punches". :) :)

tj

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #186 on: February 19, 2024, 11:19:32 AM »
...
It's unfortunate because I see so much opportunity to talk about the FI side more. He is so beyond FI and has been for a long time. That changes a person and their engagement with the world. There's so much meaning that could be explored, but as I said, it can be very hard to evolve a writing persona.

Agree completely! I'd love to see MMM reflect on the challenges and opportunities of FI life with the same hard-nosed humorous clarity he brought to the journey to get there. Dr.Doom's post in 2021 was a compelling example of a "warts and all" account of post-FI life. But that was his last post. https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-update/ 

From quite a few posts on this forum and my own experience, reaching FI with or without RE, can leave us feeling a bit like the dog who caught the car. Now what? A whole new journey beckons and it would be great fun to have a committed MMM-type along for the ride.  I read and enjoy a few post-retirement blogs but none give "face-punches". :) :)

I hope Dr Doom does another update someday.

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #187 on: February 19, 2024, 11:21:11 AM »
...
It's unfortunate because I see so much opportunity to talk about the FI side more. He is so beyond FI and has been for a long time. That changes a person and their engagement with the world. There's so much meaning that could be explored, but as I said, it can be very hard to evolve a writing persona.

Agree completely! I'd love to see MMM reflect on the challenges and opportunities of FI life with the same hard-nosed humorous clarity he brought to the journey to get there. Dr.Doom's post in 2021 was a compelling example of a "warts and all" account of post-FI life. But that was his last post. https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-update/ 

From quite a few posts on this forum and my own experience, reaching FI with or without RE, can leave us feeling a bit like the dog who caught the car. Now what? A whole new journey beckons and it would be great fun to have a committed MMM-type along for the ride.  I read and enjoy a few post-retirement blogs but none give "face-punches". :) :)

Doom's update was literal perfection. Love that guy.

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #188 on: February 19, 2024, 12:41:13 PM »
I really enjoy hearing perspectives from people whose wants/needs/priorities change after financial independence. That includes FS in the OP, even if he is an SEO goofball.

Such a possibility has been my personal finance pre-occupation for the last several years. I don't love my job. But I like it. And it's a very good job that pays me well, gives me flexibility, and is intellectually engaging.

I rank pretty highly on an autodidact scale (as I'm sure most of us here do), so I know that I could find that intellectual engagement elsewhere. But the busier my personal life gets, the more I appreciate that my job gives me focus and direction.

A few years ago, my goal was to be done by 41 or so. Now, I'm trying to get comfortable with the idea of the target being 50 and getting more intentional about using my PTO and stuff. The past few years have been a real grind. My career has taken off, which is great, but I find myself in a mad dash to use a bunch of PTO by the end of the year.

The mad dash made sense when my end date seemed so certain, but I'm going into 2024 with an eagerness to explore other arrangements. I've already gotten my employer to agree to take some responsibility away from me. This will help me plan out my year a little better. I've got five weeks of PTO. That's enough for a few family trips. A week at home to play videogames. A solo trip. A boys trip. Etc. And I know, based on what my coworker is doing, that there's a path for me to eventually move to 80% of a full schedule, or even do consulting work instead of being a W2 employee.

My head has been down and tunneling through for too long. If I come up for air, take a breath, and survey the landscape, I think there's a good chance I can enjoy my life now as much as I would a theoretical life with no job.

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #189 on: February 19, 2024, 05:14:34 PM »
I totally gave up on FS after a while. He wrote some truly ridiculous articles - like the 1% SWR suggestion, and the famous example of a family making 500k but living paycheck to paycheck. I'm not even sure that he was ever financially independent - the entire persona could be utter fiction. I'd lump him in with Robert Kiyosaki, who is a professional con man author rather than any sort of finance genius. "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" is rife with factual, ethical, and legal inaccuracies. The Rich Dad never existed and he suggests a variety of delightful investment strategies such as insider trading, that might get you rich, but will also get you happily incarcerated. He's made an excellent living promoting himself. To me, Financial Samurai and Kiyosaki are both clearly professional authors. They write stuff that will generate income. I'm not interested in either.

The popular FIRE blogs are authentic to a hugely greater degree. While it's easy to take potshots at any of them, Go Curry Cracker, Root of Good, FrugalWoods, Millennial Revolution, Early Retirement Now, and MMM himself certainly walked the walk and followed a path that is at least 90% reproducible. What details are the greatest turn-offs will vary from reader to reader. Some are put off by overly high incomes (FW), others by espousing unrealistic lifestyles (MR), or post-retirement careers (MMM), or blog income (maybe all of the above) but fundamentally they provide examples of relatively relatable people achieving what they personally consider financial independence, and most people can learn a lot from them.

FS and RK, on the other hand, I would not trust at all to provide either an honest account of their own supposed success, or provide honest advice to anybody.

tj

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #190 on: February 19, 2024, 05:19:38 PM »
I totally gave up on FS after a while. He wrote some truly ridiculous articles - like the 1% SWR suggestion, and the famous example of a family making 500k but living paycheck to paycheck. I'm not even sure that he was ever financially independent - the entire persona could be utter fiction. I'd lump him in with Robert Kiyosaki, who is a professional con man author rather than any sort of finance genius. "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" is rife with factual, ethical, and legal inaccuracies. The Rich Dad never existed and he suggests a variety of delightful investment strategies such as insider trading, that might get you rich, but will also get you happily incarcerated. He's made an excellent living promoting himself. To me, Financial Samurai and Kiyosaki are both clearly professional authors. They write stuff that will generate income. I'm not interested in either.

The popular FIRE blogs are authentic to a hugely greater degree. While it's easy to take potshots at any of them, Go Curry Cracker, Root of Good, FrugalWoods, Millennial Revolution, Early Retirement Now, and MMM himself certainly walked the walk and followed a path that is at least 90% reproducible. What details are the greatest turn-offs will vary from reader to reader. Some are put off by overly high incomes (FW), others by espousing unrealistic lifestyles (MR), or post-retirement careers (MMM), or blog income (maybe all of the above) but fundamentally they provide examples of relatively relatable people achieving what they personally consider financial independence, and most people can learn a lot from them.

FS and RK, on the other hand, I would not trust at all to provide either an honest account of their own supposed success, or provide honest advice to anybody.

Why is the Millennial Revolution considered an unrealistic lifestyle?

VanillaGorilla

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #191 on: February 19, 2024, 06:03:31 PM »
Why is the Millennial Revolution considered an unrealistic lifestyle?
Ah I don't want to criticize MR unduly because I think they're a valuable resource for a younger crowd who is just getting started. Their investing ideas are pretty mediocre, I find their financial analyses to be simplistic, and I find their presentation style to be aggravatingly juvenile.

Their greatest limitation, IMHO, is presenting FIRE as an extreme lifestyle - in their case living out of a suitcase in other peoples' homes. I personally want to own a house and a dog and a car - none of which they have, and some of which they love to insult people over - and am happy to work an extra few years to have those things. I feel like this is one of MMM's great advantages, he sold FI as "I have a car and a nice house and nice things, you don't have to sacrifice a normal quality of life".

Of course MR just had a child; I look forward to seeing their ongoing journey.

To each their own - some want to be digital nomads with a blog side hustle, others want quiet anonymity with the normal trappings of the modern day American middle class. However, I suspect that the vast majority of folks aren't interested in full time travel, so that's why I would characterize them as glamorizing an unrealistic lifestyle.

tj

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #192 on: February 19, 2024, 06:21:36 PM »
Why is the Millennial Revolution considered an unrealistic lifestyle?
Ah I don't want to criticize MR unduly because I think they're a valuable resource for a younger crowd who is just getting started. Their investing ideas are pretty mediocre, I find their financial analyses to be simplistic, and I find their presentation style to be aggravatingly juvenile.

Their greatest limitation, IMHO, is presenting FIRE as an extreme lifestyle - in their case living out of a suitcase in other peoples' homes. I personally want to own a house and a dog and a car - none of which they have, and some of which they love to insult people over - and am happy to work an extra few years to have those things. I feel like this is one of MMM's great advantages, he sold FI as "I have a car and a nice house and nice things, you don't have to sacrifice a normal quality of life".

Of course MR just had a child; I look forward to seeing their ongoing journey.

To each their own - some want to be digital nomads with a blog side hustle, others want quiet anonymity with the normal trappings of the modern day American middle class. However, I suspect that the vast majority of folks aren't interested in full time travel, so that's why I would characterize them as glamorizing an unrealistic lifestyle.

Fair enough. I didn't even know they had a kid. I recall when they first started, they were paying an expensive Canadian financial advisor to manage their investments. I guess things have changed since then.

Dicey

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #193 on: February 19, 2024, 07:03:53 PM »

Funny, I'm not even a big FW fan. I just do not appreciate the way people have piled on them. It's ironic to me that so many people sound just like the FIRE haters.

Living on almost nothing when you have firehoses of cash coming your way takes a discipline that most people don't possess. I find that admirable. Unlike Jacob Lund Fisker, they reported their entire household spending, not just conveniently arranged portions of it. Would I pay Liz to review my finances? Not on your life.

My mistake then, for some reasons I remembered you as one of the fans who used to rave about her writing style. I know someone here I really like loved her style, which is why I tried reading it, but I absolutely could not stand it.
I don't think it was me, as I'm not overly fond of her writing style*, but I did appreciate her enthusiasm and determination.

However, I have recommended the Uber-Frugal Month to many people here. Personally, I started doing a no-spend February long before Pete ever had the MMM brainstorm. The first year I did it, I was able to pay my sick friend's rent for what turned out to be the last two months of her life with the money I'd saved. That cemented it for me, and I still do a No-Spend February (to some degree) to this day. It was ridiculously hard back then. I not only had no support, nobody understood what I was doing or why. I think receiving a daily email and a well thought out plan to follow would have made it substantially easier.

*As I wrote this, a memory was revived. I think I actually sent her a message once and gently suggested that her profligate use of obscure and multisyllabic words was a wee bit off-putting. To my surprise, she toned it down a bit.

@Longwaytogo, I did see your reply, and I agree I did not quote you correctly. As I do not wish to engage in a shouting match with you [see: enlarged font], I have been waiting for kinder and gentler words to come to me.

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #194 on: February 19, 2024, 07:11:13 PM »

Funny, I'm not even a big FW fan. I just do not appreciate the way people have piled on them. It's ironic to me that so many people sound just like the FIRE haters.

Living on almost nothing when you have firehoses of cash coming your way takes a discipline that most people don't possess. I find that admirable. Unlike Jacob Lund Fisker, they reported their entire household spending, not just conveniently arranged portions of it. Would I pay Liz to review my finances? Not on your life.

My mistake then, for some reasons I remembered you as one of the fans who used to rave about her writing style. I know someone here I really like loved her style, which is why I tried reading it, but I absolutely could not stand it.
I don't think it was me, as I'm not overly fond of her writing style*, but I did appreciate her enthusiasm and determination.

However, I have recommended the Uber-Frugal Month to many people here. Personally, I started doing a no-spend February long before Pete ever had the MMM brainstorm. The first year I did it, I was able to pay my sick friend's rent for what turned out to be the last two months of her life with the money I'd saved. That cemented it for me, and I still do a No-Spend February (to some degree) to this day. It was ridiculously hard back then. I not only had no support, nobody understood what I was doing or why. I think receiving a daily email and a well thought out plan to follow would have made it substantially easier.

*As I wrote this, a memory was revived. I think I actually sent her a message once and gently suggested that her profligate use of obscure and multisyllabic words was a wee bit off-putting. To my surprise, she toned it down a bit.

@Longwaytogo, I did see your reply, and I agree I did not quote you correctly. As I do not wish to engage in a shouting match with you [see: enlarged font], I have been waiting for kinder and gentler words to come to me.

That's pretty funny.

Longwaytogo

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #195 on: February 19, 2024, 07:49:28 PM »
@Longwaytogo, I did see your reply, and I agree I did not quote you correctly. As I do not wish to engage in a shouting match with you [see: enlarged font], I have been waiting for kinder and gentler words to come to me.

Sorry, I enlarge the font so folks know which part of the quote I'm responding too. In the past when I snipped pieces out I was accused of taking things out of context so I've taken to quoting whole sections and highlighting the piece I'm responding to as I've done here. I was'nt trying to scream at you.

------

I'm not sure which words you thought were unkind to you, you are the one who pulled in my own finances rather then respond to my thoughts on the Frugalwoods. But I'm sorry if you were offended by something I said.

I personally believe in the Maya Angelou quote - "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time"

The fruaglwoods have shown me that they are dishonest, and I believe them! You obviously like them or don't mind their deceptiveness, so you do you!

Prior to this thread I haven't thought of the Frugalwoods at all in about 5 years. I think I'll go back to that now :)

tj

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #196 on: February 19, 2024, 07:56:47 PM »
@Longwaytogo, I did see your reply, and I agree I did not quote you correctly. As I do not wish to engage in a shouting match with you [see: enlarged font], I have been waiting for kinder and gentler words to come to me.

Sorry, I enlarge the font so folks know which part of the quote I'm responding too. In the past when I snipped pieces out I was accused of taking things out of context so I've taken to quoting whole sections and highlighting the piece I'm responding to as I've done here. I was'nt trying to scream at you.

------

I'm not sure which words you thought were unkind to you, you are the one who pulled in my own finances rather then respond to my thoughts on the Frugalwoods. But I'm sorry if you were offended by something I said.

I personally believe in the Maya Angelou quote - "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time"

The fruaglwoods have shown me that they are dishonest, and I believe them! You obviously like them or don't mind their deceptiveness, so you do you!

Prior to this thread I haven't thought of the Frugalwoods at all in about 5 years. I think I'll go back to that now :)

I don't know, maybe I read it wrong, but when I read her comment, it seemed like she's waiting for kind and gentle words for herself to express, not accusing you of using unkind words towards her. 

Longwaytogo

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #197 on: February 19, 2024, 08:15:46 PM »
@Longwaytogo, I did see your reply, and I agree I did not quote you correctly. As I do not wish to engage in a shouting match with you [see: enlarged font], I have been waiting for kinder and gentler words to come to me.

Sorry, I enlarge the font so folks know which part of the quote I'm responding too. In the past when I snipped pieces out I was accused of taking things out of context so I've taken to quoting whole sections and highlighting the piece I'm responding to as I've done here. I was'nt trying to scream at you.

------

I'm not sure which words you thought were unkind to you, you are the one who pulled in my own finances rather then respond to my thoughts on the Frugalwoods. But I'm sorry if you were offended by something I said.

I personally believe in the Maya Angelou quote - "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time"

The fruaglwoods have shown me that they are dishonest, and I believe them! You obviously like them or don't mind their deceptiveness, so you do you!

Prior to this thread I haven't thought of the Frugalwoods at all in about 5 years. I think I'll go back to that now :)

I don't know, maybe I read it wrong, but when I read her comment, it seemed like she's waiting for kind and gentle words for herself to express, not accusing you of using unkind words towards her.

Maybe, who knows.

Dicey

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #198 on: February 19, 2024, 11:21:46 PM »
@Longwaytogo, I did see your reply, and I agree I did not quote you correctly. As I do not wish to engage in a shouting match with you [see: enlarged font], I have been waiting for kinder and gentler words to come to me.

Sorry, I enlarge the font so folks know which part of the quote I'm responding too. In the past when I snipped pieces out I was accused of taking things out of context so I've taken to quoting whole sections and highlighting the piece I'm responding to as I've done here. I was'nt trying to scream at you.

------

I'm not sure which words you thought were unkind to you, you are the one who pulled in my own finances rather then respond to my thoughts on the Frugalwoods. But I'm sorry if you were offended by something I said.

I personally believe in the Maya Angelou quote - "When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time"

The fruaglwoods have shown me that they are dishonest, and I believe them! You obviously like them or don't mind their deceptiveness, so you do you!

Prior to this thread I haven't thought of the Frugalwoods at all in about 5 years. I think I'll go back to that now :)

I don't know, maybe I read it wrong, but when I read her comment, it seemed like she's waiting for kind and gentle words for herself to express, not accusing you of using unkind words towards her.
Thanks, @tj, you nailed it.

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #199 on: February 20, 2024, 08:21:30 AM »
Authenticity has historically been the underlying currency of the Lifestyle Blogging genre, so it shouldn't be controversial for bloggers' integrity in their representation of their actual life to be held dear by readers. The relatability aspect rests on readers believing the blog is portraying truth; FW are far from unique as a lifestyle blog that's been criticized for violating this expectation. And the criticisms about the income situation are not baseless or out of left field at all.

To be honest, I don't understand the angle of "well I don't care, why do you care so much just stop reading" like what is really being said there? what's so bothersome about somebody raising a criticism that you 1. don't care about and 2. is about integrity. Personally I'll always side on supporting speaking out about integrity issues. When it comes to FIRE communities, or any program that requires factual information to effect change, it's just going to be harder for people to learn how to do something well for themselves if they encounter inaccurate, unquestioned information in the sphere. Questioning things should be a welcomed part of the process, not an opportunity to be dismissive.

I see FS as someone who is purposefully bucking the "authenticity" trend with algorithm-optimized, outrage-first content that generates interest from a contemporary social media approach.