Financial Samurai

[eyesonthehorizon]

@Metalcat - that's fair, this board is more even-handed than the overall reception I've witnessed in the other arena I saw it erupt (where money is magical, proof of greatness and/ or evildoing), so I shouldn't have said 'community' so casually, I just tend to think sloppily of both spaces as a sort of humanist alternative lifestyle 'community.'

discussion of his income or career historically seemed to land back on her as if having a high-paid spouse obligated her to drop frugality & pivot to a more traditional pursuit like shopping or disappearing entirely.

holy leaps of logic beyond comprehension.. No idea where you came up with this absurd conclusion, but congrats I guess. I've already spelled out my issues with Mr FW. And I have no opinions on her at all really.

I think you missed the words just before what you quoted. In those, & the bolded word historically above, I was explicitly commenting on the fact that this thread finally broke the described pattern - it was actually your post about Mr.-Woods that did so. You were the first person I had ever seen bring up his career to address it as his career & responsibility, instead of evidence for some scheming machination of hers, which I agree takes 'leaps of logic beyond comprehension' indeed.

@Fru-Gal - I appreciate that perspective - it essentially operates on the same fundamental value (that it's important to give people actionable hope) but with opposite results of the same input. Did you find him before MMM by chance? I actually used to read his blog, but since he's started arguing "comfortable" living is unattainable without multiples of median income, outside the rarefied audience who can command such a salary (few) or reject his consumerism (fewer), his impact has wrapped back around to "we're all fucked." I'm glad you were able to climb out of that trap, though, it's nice to think he helped someone.

[eyesonthehorizon]

@Chris Pascale - I wonder if she may have, as I did from a more adjacent industry, assumed investment bankers routinely earn in the high six figures. I only personally knew one, so I just looked up average earnings circa 2014 due to your comment, & I was off by at least a factor of four! While I agree sexism isn't what led the distaste, it sure does put many women on the obfuscatory defensive about their status or extraordinariness in the first place (setting up this situation), & during the fallout did create an algorithmic flywheel to the harassment ratio, incorporating much fouler gendered language than simply "liar" or "fake" & increased entitlement to her private life.

...Article below quote form 2014-

As a result, I’m proud to announce that we’ve hit a savings rate of 82%! ...

Thanks for digging this up, I forgot she posted about her savings rate & this explains my then-bafflement about shock over their income. Since she was always clear about her expenses it was clear they made bank, at least by my standards - to have an 82% savings rate, at my measly ~$12k per year spending from a year before then, you would have had to earn at least a hundred grand... after taxes... & as you pointed out, they were clear about their expenses at $3.5k per month/ $42k per year.

But to me they were already unattainably fancy Boston people living in a VHCOLA compared to mine (what @ChpBstrd said), so the draw was that they were living in that VHCOLA but on middle class middle America spending. On my small fraction of their earning potential, there was even more imperative to not spend, because I knew it was going to take me a lot longer than other people to hit FI, so I gleaned the blog for any advice on what I could cut.

So is the speed with which they got there the real element which upset people? The math still works, even slowly. At savings rates above zero the only relation of an income of $50k or $500k is years to quit date.

... Not being totally transparent about their finances doesn't mean their lifestyle or dress choices aren't honest preferences. ...

Really, this. Why does practicing a frugal lifestyle have to relate to your income? Isn't that mustachianism 101?

What ChpBstrd & bluecollarmusician discussed, what mathlete & spartana said. I'm just really glad I never published a blog.

[Metalcat]

@Chris Pascale - I wonder if she may have, as I did from a more adjacent industry, assumed investment bankers routinely earn in the high six figures. I only personally knew one, so I just looked up average earnings circa 2014 due to your comment, & I was off by at least a factor of four! While I agree sexism isn't what led the distaste, it sure does put many women on the obfuscatory defensive about their status or extraordinariness in the first place (setting up this situation), & during the fallout did create an algorithmic flywheel to the harassment ratio, incorporating much fouler gendered language than simply "liar" or "fake" & increased entitlement to her private life.

...Article below quote form 2014-

As a result, I’m proud to announce that we’ve hit a savings rate of 82%! ...

Thanks for digging this up, I forgot she posted about her savings rate & this explains my then-bafflement about shock over their income. Since she was always clear about her expenses it was clear they made bank, at least by my standards - to have an 82% savings rate, at my measly ~$12k per year spending from a year before then, you would have had to earn at least a hundred grand... after taxes... & as you pointed out, they were clear about their expenses at $3.5k per month/ $42k per year.

But to me they were already unattainably fancy Boston people living in a VHCOLA compared to mine (what @ChpBstrd said), so the draw was that they were living in that VHCOLA but on middle class middle America spending. On my small fraction of their earning potential, there was even more imperative to not spend, because I knew it was going to take me a lot longer than other people to hit FI, so I gleaned the blog for any advice on what I could cut.

So is the speed with which they got there the real element which upset people? The math still works, even slowly. At savings rates above zero the only relation of an income of $50k or $500k is years to quit date.

... Not being totally transparent about their finances doesn't mean their lifestyle or dress choices aren't honest preferences. ...

Really, this. Why does practicing a frugal lifestyle have to relate to your income? Isn't that mustachianism 101?

What ChpBstrd & bluecollarmusician discussed, what mathlete & spartana said. I'm just really glad I never published a blog.

Absolutely, becoming a public figure is a brutal life choice.

I wrote a whole blog series and recorded them for a podcast, which was to be hosted on a major national platform within my profession, but right when it was all about to be published, I suffered consequences from being even a tiny bit internet-notable within a professional online community.

So I shut down the project and pulled all of my content and have never regretted it.

I thought doing it within just my professional sphere would make it self-limiting and safer, but I was wrong. I've never ever wanted any degree of fame because I don't like the idea of being beholden to the public.

Because that is a MASSIVE trade off to make, especially if you try to monetize yourself as a brand.

[Longwaytogo]

@Longwaytogo I had tried sending a private message earlier, but it got blocked. Not sure if you wanted to block me specifically or if its just blanket settings, but figured I'd let you know.

Oh nothing personal. I've had messages turned off for years.

[Longwaytogo]

My forever-gripe with the PF sphere, is the exceptional person who sells themselves as ordinary. From my perspective, that's either being willfully deceptive, or very very out of touch.

I think this is what it boils down to for me (coupled with the honesty piece).

Like I can look at a professional Athlete or Grammy winning musician making a bunch of money and say, well that's not me. I didn't begin pursuing something like that at a young age, not a prodigy, didn't put in my 10,000+ hours, etc. I'm not going to replicate that.

Similarly a doctor, lawyer, CEO type went to lots of school and has a high stress job that I don't want. The $250K salary sounds cool; but usually the job attached to is does NOT.

----------

So when someone like Frugal woods comes along claiming to be ordinary with a "hey you can do this too" schtick it seems exciting and like something I should read up on and follow.

Then they come along and turns out they WERE extraordinary the whole time making the CEO/Tech salary of a quarter million year. The seems like a lie and slap in the face (to me).

Anyway, it is what it is!  Two of the most authentic and relatable FIRE blogs I ever read were MMM and Root of Good; now they could be lying too; who knows. But it seems they did it on more normal salaries.

-----------

On the folks saying to move out of HCOL area it isn't always that simple. Not trying to get off topic but in my case I'm surrounded by family and friends, grew up here. Also my wife makes ~$100k as a teacher vs $50ish in a LCOL area so it's all kind of relative. Similarly I do high end remodeling were LCOL area it's cheaper and/or lots of DIY folks vs dual income rich people around here that hire out everything.

I do still believe FIRE is possible, I just think its much less probable then I originally believed. Maybe I was Naïve, the excitement of it blinded me to the facts, etc. but I def think it's difficult. 10 years on these forums and I've still only seen a few people do it in real time at a young age.

I think personally the keys are:

1. Start young
2. Start before kids
3. House hack, especially in a HCOL and especially when young and easier to put up with roommates or non traditional living arrangements
4. Focus on rapidly increasing income
5. Frugality

I'd rank them in approx. that order, vs most of the bloggers shouting #5 from the rooftop.

I should stress that I truly believe a vast majority of people, at all levels of income, could get tremendous value out of being more anti-consumerist/pro-saver. In fact, I think that for most of Americans/Canadians, a retiring even a decade prior to 65 is very achievable.

I agree. I'm 43 now and my goal is 55 which is still a decent possibility and if I achieve it I will be THRILLED and a decade ahead of US average; and hopefully in better health to enjoy those 10 years then I'd be at 65.

But when I found all these blogs in 2013 at 33 I thought I'd be retired by 45-ish which seems laughable in hindsight. But I that's more on me, my starting point, my spending, and my naivety then it is on Frugal woods or anyone else.

Hearing their name brought up again till made me salty though, lol.

[curious_george]

My forever-gripe with the PF sphere, is the exceptional person who sells themselves as ordinary. From my perspective, that's either being willfully deceptive, or very very out of touch.

I think this is what it boils down to for me (coupled with the honesty piece).

Like I can look at a professional Athlete or Grammy winning musician making a bunch of money and say, well that's not me. I didn't begin pursuing something like that at a young age, not a prodigy, didn't put in my 10,000+ hours, etc. I'm not going to replicate that.

Similarly a doctor, lawyer, CEO type went to lots of school and has a high stress job that I don't want. The $250K salary sounds cool; but usually the job attached to is does NOT.

----------

So when someone like Frugal woods comes along claiming to be ordinary with a "hey you can do this too" schtick it seems exciting and like something I should read up on and follow.

Then they come along and turns out they WERE extraordinary the whole time making the CEO/Tech salary of a quarter million year. The seems like a lie and slap in the face (to me).

Anyway, it is what it is!  Two of the most authentic and relatable FIRE blogs I ever read were MMM and Root of Good; now they could be lying too; who knows. But it seems they did it on more normal salaries.

-----------

On the folks saying to move out of HCOL area it isn't always that simple. Not trying to get off topic but in my case I'm surrounded by family and friends, grew up here. Also my wife makes ~$100k as a teacher vs $50ish in a LCOL area so it's all kind of relative. Similarly I do high end remodeling were LCOL area it's cheaper and/or lots of DIY folks vs dual income rich people around here that hire out everything.

I do still believe FIRE is possible, I just think its much less probable then I originally believed. Maybe I was Naïve, the excitement of it blinded me to the facts, etc. but I def think it's difficult. 10 years on these forums and I've still only seen a few people do it in real time at a young age.

I think personally the keys are:

1. Start young
2. Start before kids
3. House hack, especially in a HCOL and especially when young and easier to put up with roommates or non traditional living arrangements
4. Focus on rapidly increasing income
5. Frugality

I'd rank them in approx. that order, vs most of the bloggers shouting #5 from the rooftop.

I should stress that I truly believe a vast majority of people, at all levels of income, could get tremendous value out of being more anti-consumerist/pro-saver. In fact, I think that for most of Americans/Canadians, a retiring even a decade prior to 65 is very achievable.

I agree. I'm 43 now and my goal is 55 which is still a decent possibility and if I achieve it I will be THRILLED and a decade ahead of US average; and hopefully in better health to enjoy those 10 years then I'd be at 65.

But when I found all these blogs in 2013 at 33 I thought I'd be retired by 45-ish which seems laughable in hindsight. But I that's more on me, my starting point, my spending, and my naivety then it is on Frugal woods or anyone else.

Hearing their name brought up again till made me salty though, lol.

I disagree - FIRE is for ordinary people. I am a very ordinary person.

I was financially independent in my late 20s with a family of four at the time and a spouse who has never worked a job in her life. I started with less than nothing.

If you knew my life story you would assume I was a troll or something probably, but I assure you people who are far less than ordinary have accomplished FIRE at young ages. I am probably the opposite of a special or extraordinary person. I am actually probably one of the least educated (went to a community college) people on this forum..

FIRE is not about education or intelligence or income or circumstances or family support or if you have a blog or anything.

It's more about how willing you are to live in a $30,000 dollar shack in the woods while eating oatmeal, sleeping on the floor, and riding a bicycle to the local grocery store and back for your oatmeal.

[partgypsy]

FS is not an immigrant.  His parents worked for the US department of State as US citizens.

I stand corrected.

Instead I’ll say both MMM and FS have significant experience growing up outside the US (and FS is bilingual), and I find that interesting.

Having TDY’d US embassy's, it’s a very significant difference.  He didn’t live a typical life.  While overseas he would have been attending the American School with the elites of that country.  He then came back to the US in high school where he attended a regular public school outside of DC.

I've recently heard of the term describing these kind of people, called Third culture kids. Obama is an example of one.

[partgypsy]

I only starting reading these blogs after going to grad school and 3 year post doc, with a not high income career choice, with 2 kids. My intention was I realized I didn't want to be in a situation where I was working till my 70s like my Mom or 80s like my Dad. So maybe not Re according to this blog definition but my own definition. I'm already getting push back from my mom and sister why I would retire 60-62, Instead of the usual 65-67. So I don't talk to them about it. 

[curious_george]

I only starting reading these blogs after going to grad school and 3 year post doc, with a not high income career choice, with 2 kids. My intention was I realized I didn't want to be in a situation where I was working till my 70s like my Mom or 80s like my Dad. So maybe not Re according to this blog definition but my own definition.

Yeah - similarly I started down this path way before this blog came out from a desire to have housing security.

After I secured a paid off house very young I then realized savings account paid interest, then CD's paid higher interest, then realized if I had enough money I could live off the interest, then stock investments, etc.

So I just sort of stumbled onto the idea from a desire to have some security in life.

[VanillaGorilla]

Then they come along and turns out they WERE extraordinary the whole time making the CEO/Tech salary of a quarter million year. The seems like a lie and slap in the face (to me).

Anyway, it is what it is!  Two of the most authentic and relatable FIRE blogs I ever read were MMM and Root of Good; now they could be lying too; who knows. But it seems they did it on more normal salaries.

Are you sure about that? The MMM household reported an annual income of roughly $200k back in 2003, which equates to $340k today.

RoG reported roughly 140k in 2013, equating to 190k today, in a relatively affordable area, and with access to tax advantaged savings possibilities that aren't available to most of us.

Both of these salaries are multiple times the median household income for their areas.

[tj]

My forever-gripe with the PF sphere, is the exceptional person who sells themselves as ordinary. From my perspective, that's either being willfully deceptive, or very very out of touch.

I think this is what it boils down to for me (coupled with the honesty piece).

Like I can look at a professional Athlete or Grammy winning musician making a bunch of money and say, well that's not me. I didn't begin pursuing something like that at a young age, not a prodigy, didn't put in my 10,000+ hours, etc. I'm not going to replicate that.

Similarly a doctor, lawyer, CEO type went to lots of school and has a high stress job that I don't want. The $250K salary sounds cool; but usually the job attached to is does NOT.

----------

So when someone like Frugal woods comes along claiming to be ordinary with a "hey you can do this too" schtick it seems exciting and like something I should read up on and follow.

Then they come along and turns out they WERE extraordinary the whole time making the CEO/Tech salary of a quarter million year. The seems like a lie and slap in the face (to me).

Anyway, it is what it is!  Two of the most authentic and relatable FIRE blogs I ever read were MMM and Root of Good; now they could be lying too; who knows. But it seems they did it on more normal salaries.

-----------

On the folks saying to move out of HCOL area it isn't always that simple. Not trying to get off topic but in my case I'm surrounded by family and friends, grew up here. Also my wife makes ~$100k as a teacher vs $50ish in a LCOL area so it's all kind of relative. Similarly I do high end remodeling were LCOL area it's cheaper and/or lots of DIY folks vs dual income rich people around here that hire out everything.

I do still believe FIRE is possible, I just think its much less probable then I originally believed. Maybe I was Naïve, the excitement of it blinded me to the facts, etc. but I def think it's difficult. 10 years on these forums and I've still only seen a few people do it in real time at a young age.

I think personally the keys are:

1. Start young
2. Start before kids
3. House hack, especially in a HCOL and especially when young and easier to put up with roommates or non traditional living arrangements
4. Focus on rapidly increasing income
5. Frugality

I'd rank them in approx. that order, vs most of the bloggers shouting #5 from the rooftop.

I should stress that I truly believe a vast majority of people, at all levels of income, could get tremendous value out of being more anti-consumerist/pro-saver. In fact, I think that for most of Americans/Canadians, a retiring even a decade prior to 65 is very achievable.

I agree. I'm 43 now and my goal is 55 which is still a decent possibility and if I achieve it I will be THRILLED and a decade ahead of US average; and hopefully in better health to enjoy those 10 years then I'd be at 65.

But when I found all these blogs in 2013 at 33 I thought I'd be retired by 45-ish which seems laughable in hindsight. But I that's more on me, my starting point, my spending, and my naivety then it is on Frugal woods or anyone else.

Hearing their name brought up again till made me salty though, lol.

I've also felt rootofgood was one of the more interesting genuine bloggers, but even on this forum, he got buried because of his manipulation of low income for the ACA tax credits and student loans forgiveness while being a millionaire.

[Retire-Canada]

MMM's Simple Math Post pretty much lays out the path to FIRE in a very simple way. And should allow anyone to set their expectations reasonably and evaluate what someone is posting about their story in terms of how realistic it is.

https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/

The frugality piece is simply how fast do you want to achieve your goal? Really fast? Well then you need to get a savings rate higher than 50%. If you are middle class you can't be spendy and achieve that so you need to do some spending optimization. Hence the frugality.

What a "normal" earner can't do is be spendy and expect to FIRE young[ish]. I think MMM has been pretty clear on the relationship between reducing spending and accelerating FI.

Whenever I need a kick in the pants or to see that there is a ton of room left to optimize I just spend time over at the www.earlyretirment extreme.com site & forums. There are lots of great ideas discussed over there. I've used quite a few to adjust my thinking and make my FIRE plans more robust. That site is full of "normal" people crushing it in FI and RE terms.

[Longwaytogo]

Then they come along and turns out they WERE extraordinary the whole time making the CEO/Tech salary of a quarter million year. The seems like a lie and slap in the face (to me).

Anyway, it is what it is!  Two of the most authentic and relatable FIRE blogs I ever read were MMM and Root of Good; now they could be lying too; who knows. But it seems they did it on more normal salaries.

Are you sure about that? The MMM household reported an annual income of roughly $200k back in 2003, which equates to $340k today.

RoG reported roughly 140k in 2013, equating to 190k today, in a relatively affordable area, and with access to tax advantaged savings possibilities that aren't available to most of us.

Both of these salaries are multiple times the median household income for their areas.

Still both much less then FW, and they disclosed them honestly.

But yes, well above median.

Our household was about $160k last year compared to $80k in 2013 so we're working on it!

[FireLane]

Lol. Back to back posts, one saying, "It's not about income." and another saying, "It's all about income."

A true marketplace of ideas moment.

It's both. If a high income earner lived and spent like a low income earner they would likely be FI in a very short time. The low income earner can do it in most normal circumstances but it's just going to require a ton of sacrifices and many years longer. I worked an adult job from 18 to 36 and max out all available investments I could, lived leanly, eventually married someone equally frugal who earned what I did, divorced and still was able to pull the plug pretty early at 36 (lean FIRE - more chubby FIRE by 42 since I sold my house and down sized). If I had FW or FS incomes I could have retired in about 3 years or less. Of course if I had their spending levels (especially FS) I'd be working forever!

This is really the key.

The math of FIRE works regardless of your income level. If you spend less than you earn and invest the difference, you'll get to financial independence. It's just that a high-income earner will get there quicker, with less sacrifice along the way.

Most people don't want to hear that. They want to believe that FIRE is unattainable for ordinary people, so they don't regret not trying. That feeling comes out as hate and envy directed at FIRE bloggers who made high salaries. "They were only able to retire early because they're rich!"

Admittedly, there's a selection effect. Most of the popular FIRE bloggers are high-income, because it is easier for them. But everyone has their own advantages and disadvantages. Like MMM, I made a high salary working in tech, and I know that was a privilege most people don't enjoy. On the other hand, I have basically no DIY skills. When I read about about someone renovating their house from scratch, I feel a little pang of jealousy.

The difference is, if I read about a person doing something I can't, I don't take that as an excuse to write them off entirely. I take the parts of their advice that work for me and skip the parts that don't.

[tj]

Lol. Back to back posts, one saying, "It's not about income." and another saying, "It's all about income."

A true marketplace of ideas moment.

It's both. If a high income earner lived and spent like a low income earner they would likely be FI in a very short time. The low income earner can do it in most normal circumstances but it's just going to require a ton of sacrifices and many years longer. I worked an adult job from 18 to 36 and max out all available investments I could, lived leanly, eventually married someone equally frugal who earned what I did, divorced and still was able to pull the plug pretty early at 36 (lean FIRE - more chubby FIRE by 42 since I sold my house and down sized). If I had FW or FS incomes I could have retired in about 3 years or less. Of course if I had their spending levels (especially FS) I'd be working forever!

This is really the key.

The math of FIRE works regardless of your income level. If you spend less than you earn and invest the difference, you'll get to financial independence. It's just that a high-income earner will get there quicker, with less sacrifice along the way.

Most people don't want to hear that. They want to believe that FIRE is unattainable for ordinary people, so they don't regret not trying. That feeling comes out as hate and envy directed at FIRE bloggers who made high salaries. "They were only able to retire early because they're rich!"

Admittedly, there's a selection effect. Most of the popular FIRE bloggers are high-income, because it is easier for them. But everyone has their own advantages and disadvantages. Like MMM, I made a high salary working in tech, and I know that was a privilege most people don't enjoy. On the other hand, I have basically no DIY skills. When I read about about someone renovating their house from scratch, I feel a little pang of jealousy.

The difference is, if I read about a person doing something I can't, I don't take that as an excuse to write them off entirely. I take the parts of their advice that work for me and skip the parts that don't.

I don't know that it's necessarily true that high earners would have less sacrifice than low earners. High earners are societally expected to be spendypants and could be outcasted from their social circles or families to make the active choice to be different from what is the normal status quo.

That is to say, sure, earning an extremely high income 100% makes it financially easier, but that doesn't mean that overall it is easier.

[Metalcat]

Lol. Back to back posts, one saying, "It's not about income." and another saying, "It's all about income."

A true marketplace of ideas moment.

It's both. If a high income earner lived and spent like a low income earner they would likely be FI in a very short time. The low income earner can do it in most normal circumstances but it's just going to require a ton of sacrifices and many years longer. I worked an adult job from 18 to 36 and max out all available investments I could, lived leanly, eventually married someone equally frugal who earned what I did, divorced and still was able to pull the plug pretty early at 36 (lean FIRE - more chubby FIRE by 42 since I sold my house and down sized). If I had FW or FS incomes I could have retired in about 3 years or less. Of course if I had their spending levels (especially FS) I'd be working forever!

This is really the key.

The math of FIRE works regardless of your income level. If you spend less than you earn and invest the difference, you'll get to financial independence. It's just that a high-income earner will get there quicker, with less sacrifice along the way.

Most people don't want to hear that. They want to believe that FIRE is unattainable for ordinary people, so they don't regret not trying. That feeling comes out as hate and envy directed at FIRE bloggers who made high salaries. "They were only able to retire early because they're rich!"

Admittedly, there's a selection effect. Most of the popular FIRE bloggers are high-income, because it is easier for them. But everyone has their own advantages and disadvantages. Like MMM, I made a high salary working in tech, and I know that was a privilege most people don't enjoy. On the other hand, I have basically no DIY skills. When I read about about someone renovating their house from scratch, I feel a little pang of jealousy.

The difference is, if I read about a person doing something I can't, I don't take that as an excuse to write them off entirely. I take the parts of their advice that work for me and skip the parts that don't.

I don't know that it's necessarily true that high earners would have less sacrifice than low earners. High earners are societally expected to be spendypants and could be outcasted from their social circles or families to make the active choice to be different from what is the normal status quo.

That is to say, sure, earning an extremely high income 100% makes it financially easier, but that doesn't mean that overall it is easier.

And this is a point that I've made repeatedly that it's a shame that higher earning FIRE personalities don't just lean into this discourse. As someone who has been a high earning frugal person, the process of rebellion, self-exploration, and delving into what truly makes me happy when I have the option to spend on almost anything has been incredibly interesting.

The more income you have, the more options you have, and the more you need a sureness of self and identity to even grasp what your near-infinite options are what an optimal life really looks like.

This is not messaging that will be popular with people struggling financially, and it wouldn't make any blogger rich, but it is interesting and worth discussing, hence why countless high earners *here* have discussed this kind of thing for years and years and found a lot of value in contemplating it.

...and don't generally get attacked for being full of shit.

[Longwaytogo]

My forever-gripe with the PF sphere, is the exceptional person who sells themselves as ordinary. From my perspective, that's either being willfully deceptive, or very very out of touch.

I think this is what it boils down to for me (coupled with the honesty piece).

Like I can look at a professional Athlete or Grammy winning musician making a bunch of money and say, well that's not me. I didn't begin pursuing something like that at a young age, not a prodigy, didn't put in my 10,000+ hours, etc. I'm not going to replicate that.

Similarly a doctor, lawyer, CEO type went to lots of school and has a high stress job that I don't want. The $250K salary sounds cool; but usually the job attached to is does NOT.

----------

So when someone like Frugal woods comes along claiming to be ordinary with a "hey you can do this too" schtick it seems exciting and like something I should read up on and follow.

Then they come along and turns out they WERE extraordinary the whole time making the CEO/Tech salary of a quarter million year. The seems like a lie and slap in the face (to me).

Anyway, it is what it is!  Two of the most authentic and relatable FIRE blogs I ever read were MMM and Root of Good; now they could be lying too; who knows. But it seems they did it on more normal salaries.

-----------

On the folks saying to move out of HCOL area it isn't always that simple. Not trying to get off topic but in my case I'm surrounded by family and friends, grew up here. Also my wife makes ~$100k as a teacher vs $50ish in a LCOL area so it's all kind of relative. Similarly I do high end remodeling were LCOL area it's cheaper and/or lots of DIY folks vs dual income rich people around here that hire out everything.

I do still believe FIRE is possible, I just think its much less probable then I originally believed. Maybe I was Naïve, the excitement of it blinded me to the facts, etc. but I def think it's difficult. 10 years on these forums and I've still only seen a few people do it in real time at a young age.

I think personally the keys are:

1. Start young
2. Start before kids
3. House hack, especially in a HCOL and especially when young and easier to put up with roommates or non traditional living arrangements
4. Focus on rapidly increasing income
5. Frugality

I'd rank them in approx. that order, vs most of the bloggers shouting #5 from the rooftop.

I should stress that I truly believe a vast majority of people, at all levels of income, could get tremendous value out of being more anti-consumerist/pro-saver. In fact, I think that for most of Americans/Canadians, a retiring even a decade prior to 65 is very achievable.

I agree. I'm 43 now and my goal is 55 which is still a decent possibility and if I achieve it I will be THRILLED and a decade ahead of US average; and hopefully in better health to enjoy those 10 years then I'd be at 65.

But when I found all these blogs in 2013 at 33 I thought I'd be retired by 45-ish which seems laughable in hindsight. But I that's more on me, my starting point, my spending, and my naivety then it is on Frugal woods or anyone else.

Hearing their name brought up again till made me salty though, lol.

I disagree - FIRE is for ordinary people. I am a very ordinary person.

I was financially independent in my late 20s with a family of four at the time and a spouse who has never worked a job in her life. I started with less than nothing.

If you knew my life story you would assume I was a troll or something probably, but I assure you people who are far less than ordinary have accomplished FIRE at young ages. I am probably the opposite of a special or extraordinary person. I am actually probably one of the least educated (went to a community college) people on this forum..

FIRE is not about education or intelligence or income or circumstances or family support or if you have a blog or anything.

It's more about how willing you are to live in a $30,000 dollar shack in the woods while eating oatmeal, sleeping on the floor, and riding a bicycle to the local grocery store and back for your oatmeal.

I'm not saying FIRE isn't possible for ordinary people, I'm just stating it's easier for extraordinary people.

Frugal woods was one representing as the other which in my opinion was deceptive.

Congrats on achieving FI.

I personally have no interest living in a $30k shack, but to each their own! But again the Frugal woods weren't doing that. They had $450k house in a HCOL area, had they been living in a $30k shack I wouldn't have found their Blog as applicable to myself knowing that didn't interest me.

[Metalcat]

My forever-gripe with the PF sphere, is the exceptional person who sells themselves as ordinary. From my perspective, that's either being willfully deceptive, or very very out of touch.

I think this is what it boils down to for me (coupled with the honesty piece).

Like I can look at a professional Athlete or Grammy winning musician making a bunch of money and say, well that's not me. I didn't begin pursuing something like that at a young age, not a prodigy, didn't put in my 10,000+ hours, etc. I'm not going to replicate that.

Similarly a doctor, lawyer, CEO type went to lots of school and has a high stress job that I don't want. The $250K salary sounds cool; but usually the job attached to is does NOT.

----------

So when someone like Frugal woods comes along claiming to be ordinary with a "hey you can do this too" schtick it seems exciting and like something I should read up on and follow.

Then they come along and turns out they WERE extraordinary the whole time making the CEO/Tech salary of a quarter million year. The seems like a lie and slap in the face (to me).

Anyway, it is what it is!  Two of the most authentic and relatable FIRE blogs I ever read were MMM and Root of Good; now they could be lying too; who knows. But it seems they did it on more normal salaries.

-----------

On the folks saying to move out of HCOL area it isn't always that simple. Not trying to get off topic but in my case I'm surrounded by family and friends, grew up here. Also my wife makes ~$100k as a teacher vs $50ish in a LCOL area so it's all kind of relative. Similarly I do high end remodeling were LCOL area it's cheaper and/or lots of DIY folks vs dual income rich people around here that hire out everything.

I do still believe FIRE is possible, I just think its much less probable then I originally believed. Maybe I was Naïve, the excitement of it blinded me to the facts, etc. but I def think it's difficult. 10 years on these forums and I've still only seen a few people do it in real time at a young age.

I think personally the keys are:

1. Start young
2. Start before kids
3. House hack, especially in a HCOL and especially when young and easier to put up with roommates or non traditional living arrangements
4. Focus on rapidly increasing income
5. Frugality

I'd rank them in approx. that order, vs most of the bloggers shouting #5 from the rooftop.

I should stress that I truly believe a vast majority of people, at all levels of income, could get tremendous value out of being more anti-consumerist/pro-saver. In fact, I think that for most of Americans/Canadians, a retiring even a decade prior to 65 is very achievable.

I agree. I'm 43 now and my goal is 55 which is still a decent possibility and if I achieve it I will be THRILLED and a decade ahead of US average; and hopefully in better health to enjoy those 10 years then I'd be at 65.

But when I found all these blogs in 2013 at 33 I thought I'd be retired by 45-ish which seems laughable in hindsight. But I that's more on me, my starting point, my spending, and my naivety then it is on Frugal woods or anyone else.

Hearing their name brought up again till made me salty though, lol.

I disagree - FIRE is for ordinary people. I am a very ordinary person.

I was financially independent in my late 20s with a family of four at the time and a spouse who has never worked a job in her life. I started with less than nothing.

If you knew my life story you would assume I was a troll or something probably, but I assure you people who are far less than ordinary have accomplished FIRE at young ages. I am probably the opposite of a special or extraordinary person. I am actually probably one of the least educated (went to a community college) people on this forum..

FIRE is not about education or intelligence or income or circumstances or family support or if you have a blog or anything.

It's more about how willing you are to live in a $30,000 dollar shack in the woods while eating oatmeal, sleeping on the floor, and riding a bicycle to the local grocery store and back for your oatmeal.

I'm not saying FIRE isn't possible for ordinary people, I'm just stating it's easier for extraordinary people.

Frugal woods was one representing as the other which in my opinion was deceptive.

Congrats on achieving FI.

I personally have no interest living in a $30k shack, but to each their own! But again the Frugal woods weren't doing that. They had $450k house in a HCOL area, had they been living in a $30k shack I wouldn't have found their Blog as applicable to myself knowing that didn't interest me.

I would also include what @TreeLeaf did to count as extraordinary

[simonsez]

My forever-gripe with the PF sphere, is the exceptional person who sells themselves as ordinary. From my perspective, that's either being willfully deceptive, or very very out of touch.

I think this is what it boils down to for me (coupled with the honesty piece).

Like I can look at a professional Athlete or Grammy winning musician making a bunch of money and say, well that's not me. I didn't begin pursuing something like that at a young age, not a prodigy, didn't put in my 10,000+ hours, etc. I'm not going to replicate that.

Similarly a doctor, lawyer, CEO type went to lots of school and has a high stress job that I don't want. The $250K salary sounds cool; but usually the job attached to is does NOT.

----------

So when someone like Frugal woods comes along claiming to be ordinary with a "hey you can do this too" schtick it seems exciting and like something I should read up on and follow.

Then they come along and turns out they WERE extraordinary the whole time making the CEO/Tech salary of a quarter million year. The seems like a lie and slap in the face (to me).

Anyway, it is what it is!  Two of the most authentic and relatable FIRE blogs I ever read were MMM and Root of Good; now they could be lying too; who knows. But it seems they did it on more normal salaries.

-----------

On the folks saying to move out of HCOL area it isn't always that simple. Not trying to get off topic but in my case I'm surrounded by family and friends, grew up here. Also my wife makes ~$100k as a teacher vs $50ish in a LCOL area so it's all kind of relative. Similarly I do high end remodeling were LCOL area it's cheaper and/or lots of DIY folks vs dual income rich people around here that hire out everything.

I do still believe FIRE is possible, I just think its much less probable then I originally believed. Maybe I was Naïve, the excitement of it blinded me to the facts, etc. but I def think it's difficult. 10 years on these forums and I've still only seen a few people do it in real time at a young age.

I think personally the keys are:

1. Start young
2. Start before kids
3. House hack, especially in a HCOL and especially when young and easier to put up with roommates or non traditional living arrangements
4. Focus on rapidly increasing income
5. Frugality

I'd rank them in approx. that order, vs most of the bloggers shouting #5 from the rooftop.

I should stress that I truly believe a vast majority of people, at all levels of income, could get tremendous value out of being more anti-consumerist/pro-saver. In fact, I think that for most of Americans/Canadians, a retiring even a decade prior to 65 is very achievable.

I agree. I'm 43 now and my goal is 55 which is still a decent possibility and if I achieve it I will be THRILLED and a decade ahead of US average; and hopefully in better health to enjoy those 10 years then I'd be at 65.

But when I found all these blogs in 2013 at 33 I thought I'd be retired by 45-ish which seems laughable in hindsight. But I that's more on me, my starting point, my spending, and my naivety then it is on Frugal woods or anyone else.

Hearing their name brought up again till made me salty though, lol.

I disagree - FIRE is for ordinary people. I am a very ordinary person.

I was financially independent in my late 20s with a family of four at the time and a spouse who has never worked a job in her life. I started with less than nothing.

If you knew my life story you would assume I was a troll or something probably, but I assure you people who are far less than ordinary have accomplished FIRE at young ages. I am probably the opposite of a special or extraordinary person. I am actually probably one of the least educated (went to a community college) people on this forum..

FIRE is not about education or intelligence or income or circumstances or family support or if you have a blog or anything.

It's more about how willing you are to live in a $30,000 dollar shack in the woods while eating oatmeal, sleeping on the floor, and riding a bicycle to the local grocery store and back for your oatmeal.

Lol, I think I need to know what your definition of ordinary is.  It sounds like you just listed a ton of extraordinary behaviors and preferences.

Ordinary to me are the people I see at the DMV, people I see at the grocery store, and people I see at the library, etc. including the workers at such establishments.  Sure, some ordinary people might make above or even well above median incomes or be above average in myriad other ways but it's also just as likely they might be below average on a variety of measure. 

And yes, I do think most people given a value set oriented toward more saving/investing as opposed to consuming could be financially independent 5-15 years before age 65 or whatever typical.  But that doesn't seem to be how it goes for ordinary people.

[Metalcat]

My forever-gripe with the PF sphere, is the exceptional person who sells themselves as ordinary. From my perspective, that's either being willfully deceptive, or very very out of touch.

I think this is what it boils down to for me (coupled with the honesty piece).

Like I can look at a professional Athlete or Grammy winning musician making a bunch of money and say, well that's not me. I didn't begin pursuing something like that at a young age, not a prodigy, didn't put in my 10,000+ hours, etc. I'm not going to replicate that.

Similarly a doctor, lawyer, CEO type went to lots of school and has a high stress job that I don't want. The $250K salary sounds cool; but usually the job attached to is does NOT.

----------

So when someone like Frugal woods comes along claiming to be ordinary with a "hey you can do this too" schtick it seems exciting and like something I should read up on and follow.

Then they come along and turns out they WERE extraordinary the whole time making the CEO/Tech salary of a quarter million year. The seems like a lie and slap in the face (to me).

Anyway, it is what it is!  Two of the most authentic and relatable FIRE blogs I ever read were MMM and Root of Good; now they could be lying too; who knows. But it seems they did it on more normal salaries.

-----------

On the folks saying to move out of HCOL area it isn't always that simple. Not trying to get off topic but in my case I'm surrounded by family and friends, grew up here. Also my wife makes ~$100k as a teacher vs $50ish in a LCOL area so it's all kind of relative. Similarly I do high end remodeling were LCOL area it's cheaper and/or lots of DIY folks vs dual income rich people around here that hire out everything.

I do still believe FIRE is possible, I just think its much less probable then I originally believed. Maybe I was Naïve, the excitement of it blinded me to the facts, etc. but I def think it's difficult. 10 years on these forums and I've still only seen a few people do it in real time at a young age.

I think personally the keys are:

1. Start young
2. Start before kids
3. House hack, especially in a HCOL and especially when young and easier to put up with roommates or non traditional living arrangements
4. Focus on rapidly increasing income
5. Frugality

I'd rank them in approx. that order, vs most of the bloggers shouting #5 from the rooftop.

I should stress that I truly believe a vast majority of people, at all levels of income, could get tremendous value out of being more anti-consumerist/pro-saver. In fact, I think that for most of Americans/Canadians, a retiring even a decade prior to 65 is very achievable.

I agree. I'm 43 now and my goal is 55 which is still a decent possibility and if I achieve it I will be THRILLED and a decade ahead of US average; and hopefully in better health to enjoy those 10 years then I'd be at 65.

But when I found all these blogs in 2013 at 33 I thought I'd be retired by 45-ish which seems laughable in hindsight. But I that's more on me, my starting point, my spending, and my naivety then it is on Frugal woods or anyone else.

Hearing their name brought up again till made me salty though, lol.

I disagree - FIRE is for ordinary people. I am a very ordinary person.

I was financially independent in my late 20s with a family of four at the time and a spouse who has never worked a job in her life. I started with less than nothing.

If you knew my life story you would assume I was a troll or something probably, but I assure you people who are far less than ordinary have accomplished FIRE at young ages. I am probably the opposite of a special or extraordinary person. I am actually probably one of the least educated (went to a community college) people on this forum..

FIRE is not about education or intelligence or income or circumstances or family support or if you have a blog or anything.

It's more about how willing you are to live in a $30,000 dollar shack in the woods while eating oatmeal, sleeping on the floor, and riding a bicycle to the local grocery store and back for your oatmeal.

Lol, I think I need to know what your definition of ordinary is.  It sounds like you just listed a ton of extraordinary behaviors and preferences.

Ordinary to me are the people I see at the DMV, people I see at the grocery store, and people I see at the library, etc. including the workers at such establishments.  Sure, some ordinary people might make above or even well above median incomes or be above average in myriad other ways but it's also just as likely they might be below average on a variety of measure. 

And yes, I do think most people given a value set oriented toward more saving/investing as opposed to consuming could be financially independent 5-15 years before age 65 or whatever typical.  But that doesn't seem to be how it goes for ordinary people.

TreeLeaf is an extraordinary person who did not grow up among the same populations that most people here have, so they do have a different sense of what a lot of folks here would consider "average."

[mathlete]

We have a weird assumption that people earning our clicks and ad views on the internet owe us their authenticity in return.

You can call someone inauthentic without feeling like you're owed their authenticity.

[GilesMM]

We have a weird assumption that people earning our clicks and ad views on the internet owe us their authenticity in return.

You can call someone inauthentic without feeling like you're owed their authenticity.

Exactly. I might click on a links for a Dame Edna sponsored wrinkle cream, but she doesn’t owe me anything.

[Longwaytogo]

We have a weird assumption that people earning our clicks and ad views on the internet owe us their authenticity in return.

You can call someone inauthentic without feeling like you're owed their authenticity.

Exactly. I might click on a links for a Dame Edna sponsored wrinkle cream, but she doesn’t owe me anything.

Agreed, if I implied FW "owes" me anything I misspoke.

But I similarly don't owe them anything like reading their Blog or buying their book.

I'm also just confused by their motivation to lie, if you feel like sharing your story cool. But writing fiction and passing it off as fact just strikes me as odd.

[curious_george]

My forever-gripe with the PF sphere, is the exceptional person who sells themselves as ordinary. From my perspective, that's either being willfully deceptive, or very very out of touch.

I think this is what it boils down to for me (coupled with the honesty piece).

Like I can look at a professional Athlete or Grammy winning musician making a bunch of money and say, well that's not me. I didn't begin pursuing something like that at a young age, not a prodigy, didn't put in my 10,000+ hours, etc. I'm not going to replicate that.

Similarly a doctor, lawyer, CEO type went to lots of school and has a high stress job that I don't want. The $250K salary sounds cool; but usually the job attached to is does NOT.

----------

So when someone like Frugal woods comes along claiming to be ordinary with a "hey you can do this too" schtick it seems exciting and like something I should read up on and follow.

Then they come along and turns out they WERE extraordinary the whole time making the CEO/Tech salary of a quarter million year. The seems like a lie and slap in the face (to me).

Anyway, it is what it is!  Two of the most authentic and relatable FIRE blogs I ever read were MMM and Root of Good; now they could be lying too; who knows. But it seems they did it on more normal salaries.

-----------

On the folks saying to move out of HCOL area it isn't always that simple. Not trying to get off topic but in my case I'm surrounded by family and friends, grew up here. Also my wife makes ~$100k as a teacher vs $50ish in a LCOL area so it's all kind of relative. Similarly I do high end remodeling were LCOL area it's cheaper and/or lots of DIY folks vs dual income rich people around here that hire out everything.

I do still believe FIRE is possible, I just think its much less probable then I originally believed. Maybe I was Naïve, the excitement of it blinded me to the facts, etc. but I def think it's difficult. 10 years on these forums and I've still only seen a few people do it in real time at a young age.

I think personally the keys are:

1. Start young
2. Start before kids
3. House hack, especially in a HCOL and especially when young and easier to put up with roommates or non traditional living arrangements
4. Focus on rapidly increasing income
5. Frugality

I'd rank them in approx. that order, vs most of the bloggers shouting #5 from the rooftop.

I should stress that I truly believe a vast majority of people, at all levels of income, could get tremendous value out of being more anti-consumerist/pro-saver. In fact, I think that for most of Americans/Canadians, a retiring even a decade prior to 65 is very achievable.

I agree. I'm 43 now and my goal is 55 which is still a decent possibility and if I achieve it I will be THRILLED and a decade ahead of US average; and hopefully in better health to enjoy those 10 years then I'd be at 65.

But when I found all these blogs in 2013 at 33 I thought I'd be retired by 45-ish which seems laughable in hindsight. But I that's more on me, my starting point, my spending, and my naivety then it is on Frugal woods or anyone else.

Hearing their name brought up again till made me salty though, lol.

I disagree - FIRE is for ordinary people. I am a very ordinary person.

I was financially independent in my late 20s with a family of four at the time and a spouse who has never worked a job in her life. I started with less than nothing.

If you knew my life story you would assume I was a troll or something probably, but I assure you people who are far less than ordinary have accomplished FIRE at young ages. I am probably the opposite of a special or extraordinary person. I am actually probably one of the least educated (went to a community college) people on this forum..

FIRE is not about education or intelligence or income or circumstances or family support or if you have a blog or anything.

It's more about how willing you are to live in a $30,000 dollar shack in the woods while eating oatmeal, sleeping on the floor, and riding a bicycle to the local grocery store and back for your oatmeal.

Lol, I think I need to know what your definition of ordinary is.  It sounds like you just listed a ton of extraordinary behaviors and preferences.

Ordinary to me are the people I see at the DMV, people I see at the grocery store, and people I see at the library, etc. including the workers at such establishments.  Sure, some ordinary people might make above or even well above median incomes or be above average in myriad other ways but it's also just as likely they might be below average on a variety of measure. 

And yes, I do think most people given a value set oriented toward more saving/investing as opposed to consuming could be financially independent 5-15 years before age 65 or whatever typical.  But that doesn't seem to be how it goes for ordinary people.

TreeLeaf is an extraordinary person who did not grow up among the same populations that most people here have, so they do have a different sense of what a lot of folks here would consider "average."

Thanks Metal.

I guess my point is more along the lines of - if I can do it then other people can do it as well, I would assume. But perhaps I am not giving myself much credit here.

I have a lot of handyman skills and technical skills, but also poor relationship and communication skills. Anyway..

I spent a *lot* of time watching motivational speakers when I was younger and listening to motivational podcasts and sometimes this comes out in my writing when I proclaim things as simple and possible and try and convince other people something is possible for them to do in life. Some people simply lack confidence they can do something and sometimes all they need is the confidence to consider another option in life.

If *I* can do it so can you! Believe in yourself! All fear is an illusion, walk straight ahead! Rah rah!

I'm pretty sure @Longwaytogo could retire way earlier if they wanted to, but they have consciously made decisions to prioritize other things in life besides retirement. Which is fine. But projecting their lifestyle decisions onto the idea that ordinary, average people cannot accomplish FIRE at a young age seems like a logical flaw to me...

I guess my point is that an average or ordinary person *could* FIRE at a young age, if they choose to priority that over everything else in life. Of course, that is sort of an extraordinary decision that most people choose not to make.

This doesn't mean ordinary people can't do it, but just that ordinary people are largely unaware they even have that option in life or simply prioritize other things instead of early retirement.

I sort of have an issue with their assertion that they can't do it also, based on what they have posted. It seems more like they have simply chosen to prioritize other things in life and now are frustrated because the FIRE goal, which they created themselves, cannot be achieved in a reasonable time frame. So it seems to me that they have accidentally chosen to be frustrated by a goal they made themselves then changed, but refuse to let go of their original goal on an emotional level. Imo....

[bluecollarmusician]

I disagree - FIRE is for ordinary people. I am a very ordinary person.

I was financially independent in my late 20s with a family of four at the time and a spouse who has never worked a job in her life. I started with less than nothing.

@TreeLeaf I would humbly suggest that YOU are absolutely extraordinary, even if it is hard to see yourself that way.  I appreciate you sharing so much on the forum, and I think you are remarkable in what you have accomplished.

Most people who are extraordinary don't see themselves that way. 

*edited to add I just realized a lot of others chimed in to say the same thing I just did.  Seems like we agree :-)

Also- I appreciate everyone taking the time to tease this out, because a lot of this back and forth echos a sort of conversation I have in my own head about it.

@Longwaytogo I totally get where you are coming from, and 100% think that to the casual observer there is a lack of (although agreed potentially "un-owed") authenticity.  As an entertainer who routinely tells white lies on stage for effect, I think there is a difference for someone running a lifestyle blog and pure entertainment.  But as Treeleaf has just pointed out, most people don't see what they are doing as extraordinary... so I think that there was surely a recognition that their income was becoming a massive enabler to their security and it was an "uncomfortable truth..." My wife and I still spend more or less the same as we did when I was making 1/3 of what I make now... and what I would write about wouldn't necesarrily change... but it would certainly change the way people perceive what I write about.  If I felt that it would take away from my message I would like try to avoid that subject.  Not for money (because I don't need it) but because I believe my message has meaning, and I want to share it it the most effective way.

Here is a question... If I did a blog about living on 20k a year and I told the truth about every aspect of that... would it make a difference whether I made 20k or 200k/annum?

[Longwaytogo]

I've consciously decided I'd rather live a more or less "average" middle class life while saving slightly more then the main stream 10% or whatever. That combined with my wife's pension I'm hoping to retire around 55ish.

I'm also self employed and only work ~10 months a year at 30-35 hours a week now, and am happy with the balance.

------------

But my own story/plan/ etc. is irrelevant to that fact that Frugalwoods lied :p

Not sure why this became about me, lol

[curious_george]

I've consciously decided I'd rather live a more or less "average" middle class life while saving slightly more then the main stream 10% or whatever. That combined with my wife's pension I'm hoping to retire around 55ish.

I'm also self employed and only work ~10 months a year at 30-35 hours a week now, and am happy with the balance.

------------

But my own story/plan/ etc. is irrelevant to that fact that Frugalwoods lied :p

Not sure why this became about me, lol

Oh - sorry I think I just assumed you were frustrated by the delay in your FIRE goal. I did not mean to make it about you.

But yeah I also tend to take issue with people who are not authentic, but way less of an issue than I used to...

ETA: I will add that I also chose to continue to work long past my original planned date, and significantly expanded out my lifestyle in the process. At first I was sort of frustrated but then realized I was the one who chose to do this, so I might just be ironically projecting onto you lol.

[Longwaytogo]

I've consciously decided I'd rather live a more or less "average" middle class life while saving slightly more then the main stream 10% or whatever. That combined with my wife's pension I'm hoping to retire around 55ish.

I'm also self employed and only work ~10 months a year at 30-35 hours a week now, and am happy with the balance.

------------

But my own story/plan/ etc. is irrelevant to that fact that Frugalwoods lied :p

Not sure why this became about me, lol

Oh - sorry I think I just assumed you were frustrated by the delay in your FIRE goal. I did not mean to make it about you.

But yeah I also tend to take issue with people who are not authentic, but way less of an issue than I used to...

To be fair, I was for a while. But I've gotten over it, haha.

[curious_george]

I've consciously decided I'd rather live a more or less "average" middle class life while saving slightly more then the main stream 10% or whatever. That combined with my wife's pension I'm hoping to retire around 55ish.

I'm also self employed and only work ~10 months a year at 30-35 hours a week now, and am happy with the balance.

------------

But my own story/plan/ etc. is irrelevant to that fact that Frugalwoods lied :p

Not sure why this became about me, lol

Oh - sorry I think I just assumed you were frustrated by the delay in your FIRE goal. I did not mean to make it about you.

But yeah I also tend to take issue with people who are not authentic, but way less of an issue than I used to...

To be fair, I was for a while. But I've gotten over it, haha.

Yeah I think this is a common frustration here where people get attached to their FIRE goal then decide to expand our their lifestyle more then get frustrated they did note meet their FIRE goal.

I did the same thing and am still working at 37 even though I could have retire years ago.

I do have new shoes now though. Higher quality food, a four times larger house, more entertainment, better vehicles. I am sort of spoiled now.

ETA: Sorry did not mean to detail the thread. Please carry on with the ranting about the PF bloggers. :p

[mathlete]

The problem with, "everyone can do it, it's about savings rate, not income" is that it ignores the marginal utility of money. Your last dollar is worth much much much much more than your 10 millionth dollar.

https://kieranhealy.org/files/misc/killingsworth-f1.jpg

This chart is from happiness / money research that supposedly controls for other things like age/gender/marriage.

It's log-scaled, which is helpful. I did a VERY rough job at trying to transcribe this into a tabular format for some analysis, so take this with a grain of salt:

Consider a 50% savings rate, which MMM says will make you financially independent in 17 years. What if instead of calling this a 50% savings rate, we instead phrased it in terms of the well-being that money buys?



The person making $30K is sacrificing 100% of the happiness that their money can buy them. The people making $120K or above are sacrificing only around 20-25% of the happiness their money can buy them.

It requires 2 to 5 times as much sacrifice to retire in 17 years on a low to middle income, as it does on a high income.

So there are people who can do it at low incomes, but these people are still exceptional. It's just that instead of being exceptional in their earning power, they're probably exceptionally happy people for reasons other than what money can do for them.

That's key, because there are ways to improve your happiness without money or material possessions. But these things also involve a lot of work. So you're trading one type of work for another.

[curious_george]

The problem with, "everyone can do it, it's about savings rate, not income" is that it ignores the marginal utility of money. Your last dollar is worth much much much much more than your 10 millionth dollar.

https://kieranhealy.org/files/misc/killingsworth-f1.jpg

This chart is from happiness / money research that supposedly controls for other things like age/gender/marriage.

It's log-scaled, which is helpful. I did a VERY rough job at trying to transcribe this into a tabular format for some analysis, so take this with a grain of salt:

Consider a 50% savings rate, which MMM says will make you financially independent in 17 years. What if instead of calling this a 50% savings rate, we instead phrased it in terms of the well-being that money buys?



The person making $30K is sacrificing 100% of the happiness that their money can buy them. The people making $120K or above are sacrificing only around 20-25% of the happiness their money can buy them.

It requires 2 to 5 times as much sacrifice to retire in 17 years on a low to middle income, as it does on a high income.

So there are people who can do it at low incomes, but these people are still exceptional. It's just that instead of being exceptional in their earning power, they're probably exceptionally happy people for reasons other than what money can do for them.

That's key, because there are ways to improve your happiness without money or material possessions. But these things also involve a lot of work. So you're trading one type of work for another.

True.

Sorry I did not mean to imply that it is easy for a low income person to accomplish. My point was simply that it is posssible and that people should recognize that they are consciously making decisions that change their FIRE goals all the time, and that they should be ok with those decisions because they are the ones who made the decision.

Unless someone just really doesn't want to be happy with their decisions in life. Then that's on them if they prefer being frustrated.

It's sort of like the story of the guy who always complained about his packed lunch at work, then their coworker told them to just have their spouse pack them a different lunch if they aren't happy. Then the coworker said they pack their own lunch. People should realize that sometimes the things they complain about in life are conscious choice they made but then forgot that they made.

FIRE is significantly more challenging for a low income person to achieve compared to a high income person. But this doesn't mean it is impossible to achieve. Just that the lifestyle and work required and hobbies and sources of entertainment will be significantly different.

[dandarc]

Damn - never seen that particular thing pointed out with numbers but that definitely tracks.

[curious_george]

This also makes me wonder what in the world is someone making 240k / year buying that improves their happiness and life satisfaction vs someone making 120k / year?

Are there some really fancy shoes I'm missing out on or something? Lol 🤣

[mathlete]

This also makes me wonder what in the world is someone making 240k / year buying that improves their happiness and life satisfaction vs someone making 120k / year?

Are there some really fancy shoes I'm missing out on or something? Lol 🤣

As a household between 120 and 240, I can tell you what I'd spend it on (if I weren't saving so much, of course!)

Travel. I'm used to traveling super cheap and so I don't mind it, but I have kids now. We did our first international trip with the (young) kids recently. And we largely did it on the cheap, like before we had them. It was fine, but all else equal, I would have rather just stayed home. Running after the kids and helping manage their emotions and stuff is part of parenting. But it's super stressful away from home. Ultimately, that cancels out the fun of travel for me.

If someone held a gun to my head and said I had to spend money, I'd spend it on first class flights and a nanny to travel with us.

As it stands though, I'd MUCH rather save the money and wait until the kids are more manageable. Taking them for a walk in the park in some foreign city is only marginally more enjoyable than taking them to the park around the corner.

[Metalcat]

This also makes me wonder what in the world is someone making 240k / year buying that improves their happiness and life satisfaction vs someone making 120k / year?

Are there some really fancy shoes I'm missing out on or something? Lol 🤣

Typically housing in HCOL locations.

One of my BFF's has a budget several times mine despite us living extremely similar lifestyles just because her modest condo cost more than ten times what my modest condo cost me around the same time.

[curious_george]

This also makes me wonder what in the world is someone making 240k / year buying that improves their happiness and life satisfaction vs someone making 120k / year?

Are there some really fancy shoes I'm missing out on or something? Lol 🤣

Typically housing in HCOL locations.

One of my BFF's has a budget several times mine despite us living extremely similar lifestyles just because her modest condo cost more than ten times what my modest condo cost me around the same time.

Oh...yeah this makes sense.

If money was no object I would probably be living in Hawaii right now... :)

[ChpBstrd]

We have a weird assumption that people earning our clicks and ad views on the internet owe us their authenticity in return.

You can call someone inauthentic without feeling like you're owed their authenticity.

Exactly. I might click on a links for a Dame Edna sponsored wrinkle cream, but she doesn’t owe me anything.

Agreed, if I implied FW "owes" me anything I misspoke.

But I similarly don't owe them anything like reading their Blog or buying their book.

I'm also just confused by their motivation to lie, if you feel like sharing your story cool. But writing fiction and passing it off as fact just strikes me as odd.

Yet people care about the Frugalwoods, as if they are more than just a dumb TV show or an uninteresting coffee table book at a friend's house. What is our motivation to care about whether they are bullshitting us or not? I hypothesize that when someone creates an online persona via social media, we expect that persona to be an accurate representation of themselves - not theater like standup comedy. The FWs are also explicitly giving advice and modeling a lifestyle choice for us, rather than merely seeking to entertain us, so there is the risk we take bad advice from an inauthentic advice-giver.

If it's not this that pisses people off, what is it?

[Retire-Canada]

If a creator markets their story as factually autobiographical they are trading on that to generate readers. If everyone knows it's fiction the same story would not be nearly as compelling. So it's both reasonable to assume a creator is being honest in that context and be pissed off when you find out they are not.

[curious_george]

We have a weird assumption that people earning our clicks and ad views on the internet owe us their authenticity in return.

You can call someone inauthentic without feeling like you're owed their authenticity.

Exactly. I might click on a links for a Dame Edna sponsored wrinkle cream, but she doesn’t owe me anything.

Agreed, if I implied FW "owes" me anything I misspoke.

But I similarly don't owe them anything like reading their Blog or buying their book.

I'm also just confused by their motivation to lie, if you feel like sharing your story cool. But writing fiction and passing it off as fact just strikes me as odd.

Yet people care about the Frugalwoods, as if they are more than just a dumb TV show or an uninteresting coffee table book at a friend's house. What is our motivation to care about whether they are bullshitting us or not? I hypothesize that when someone creates an online persona via social media, we expect that persona to be an accurate representation of themselves - not theater like standup comedy. The FWs are also explicitly giving advice and modeling a lifestyle choice for us, rather than merely seeking to entertain us, so there is the risk we take bad advice from an inauthentic advice-giver.

If it's not this that pisses people off, what is it?

Some people expect authenticity in their relationships, especially from people who they are looking to for advice or who can hurt them in some way such as in a close personal relationship. It's basically a protection mechanism.

I used to get incredibly angry with people who came across as being inauthentic...but not anymore. People lie for all sorts of reasons. People lie to protect themselves, to try and gain acceptance from other people, to try and draw attention to themselves, for personal gain. So I sort of view it as why did they lie? Did it hurt me at all? Probably not. So I shrug my shoulders and go about my day.

As a blogger, or any famous person really, I feel like the temptation for them to not be authentic would be pretty strong. People are idolizing and worshipping these people at times, and what they love is a particular image of the person they have in their head. They are essentially selling an image of themselves to other people, so projecting a good positive image is pretty important.

I'm sure there are tons of negative things various bloggers never share publicly in order to maintain their image.

I tend to share all the negative things about myself pretty openly because if someone does accept me, I want them to accept me for the real me and not some made up version of me.

Also I don't actually want anyone to idolize me at all. In my experience it's not always positive to be put on a pedestal.

I'm not a famous blogger though. *shrug*

[Radagast]

The blogosphere will reward the people have the earliest and the most fabulous (expensive) early retirements.

But the journey to financial independence is so rewarding in ways other than just the headline grabbing, "I retired early." At one point, my goal was to be done by 40. I have kids now, and that ain't happening, lol. I love my kids, but childcare is a full time job, and quite frankly, it's a job I'd rather have someone else do during the week, while I work my job job. It's good for them, and it's good for me. It means, among other things, that I'm totally amped to see them in the evenings and weekends. So for someone like me, each kid I have pushes my FIRE date to at least 5 years from today, regardless of how much money I have. Cause that's how long we'll need daycare for.

But boy am I glad I did all that aggressive saving early. Gave me the confidence to win a stare down with work. Paid for my wife to fly to another country and have a great time while I stayed home with the kids. Will pay for me to do the same this year. Will pay for all of us to take trips when they're old enough to appreciate travel. 

I don't know when I'll stop getting a W2, but I almost don't care anymore. Life is just better when you're not worried about how you're going to finance your next big material possession.

100% in this boat. Although I wouldn't mind having 2 more days a week.

[ATtiny85]

This question of authenticity reminds me of a thought exercise:

Suppose you bought tickets to see a band you liked. There was the normal concert lighting and the band played through their hits with a lot of cheering from the crowd. Now suppose you realized the people on stage werent the actual band members but doppelgängers skilled at lip syncing. Does that change how you felt about the concert just a few minutes earlier when you thought it was the real band members playing live? What if you heard later that the band did this to make a lot more money by being able to do 200 shows a year without actually needing to show up to most of them?

I had similar discussions about Lance Armstrong. When the truth(ish?) came out, I didn’t care much. I thoroughly enjoyed the time I spent watching his cycling exploits. I met some good people, had some great times, and so on. I mentioned to a buddy “well, I wanted to be entertained, and I was. Can’t go back and “unenjoy” those times, nor do I want to.” Surely changes the future, but not the past. I would feel the same with the band. Likely would not go see them again, but the enjoyment of the previous shows was still legitimate enjoyment at the time, and I would remember the good and not worry about the dupe.

[Dicey]

My forever-gripe with the PF sphere, is the exceptional person who sells themselves as ordinary. From my perspective, that's either being willfully deceptive, or very very out of touch.

I think this is what it boils down to for me (coupled with the honesty piece).

Like I can look at a professional Athlete or Grammy winning musician making a bunch of money and say, well that's not me. I didn't begin pursuing something like that at a young age, not a prodigy, didn't put in my 10,000+ hours, etc. I'm not going to replicate that.

Similarly a doctor, lawyer, CEO type went to lots of school and has a high stress job that I don't want. The $250K salary sounds cool; but usually the job attached to is does NOT.

----------

So when someone like Frugal woods comes along claiming to be ordinary with a "hey you can do this too" schtick it seems exciting and like something I should read up on and follow.

Then they come along and turns out they WERE extraordinary the whole time making the CEO/Tech salary of a quarter million year. The seems like a lie and slap in the face (to me).

Anyway, it is what it is!  Two of the most authentic and relatable FIRE blogs I ever read were MMM and Root of Good; now they could be lying too; who knows. But it seems they did it on more normal salaries.

-----------

On the folks saying to move out of HCOL area it isn't always that simple. Not trying to get off topic but in my case I'm surrounded by family and friends, grew up here. Also my wife makes ~$100k as a teacher vs $50ish in a LCOL area so it's all kind of relative. Similarly I do high end remodeling were LCOL area it's cheaper and/or lots of DIY folks vs dual income rich people around here that hire out everything.

I do still believe FIRE is possible, I just think its much less probable then I originally believed. Maybe I was Naïve, the excitement of it blinded me to the facts, etc. but I def think it's difficult. 10 years on these forums and I've still only seen a few people do it in real time at a young age.

I think personally the keys are:

1. Start young
2. Start before kids
3. House hack, especially in a HCOL and especially when young and easier to put up with roommates or non traditional living arrangements
4. Focus on rapidly increasing income
5. Frugality

I'd rank them in approx. that order, vs most of the bloggers shouting #5 from the rooftop.

I should stress that I truly believe a vast majority of people, at all levels of income, could get tremendous value out of being more anti-consumerist/pro-saver. In fact, I think that for most of Americans/Canadians, a retiring even a decade prior to 65 is very achievable.

I agree. I'm 43 now and my goal is 55 which is still a decent possibility and if I achieve it I will be THRILLED and a decade ahead of US average; and hopefully in better health to enjoy those 10 years then I'd be at 65.

But when I found all these blogs in 2013 at 33 I thought I'd be retired by 45-ish which seems laughable in hindsight. But I that's more on me, my starting point, my spending, and my naivety then it is on Frugal woods or anyone else.

Hearing their name brought up again till made me salty though, lol.

I've been following your journey for a very long time, LWTG, and I appreciate your contributions around here. But let's face it, (as you freely admit yourself) you aren't really a mustachian. You spend massively on things the FW never did, even though they were earning shitloads of money.

Now here you are saying "It couldn't be done". The reality is that you are 100% correct. It couldn't be done with the choices you've made. Comparing yourself to them is rather disingenuous. You do you, but tearing others down is refusing to share with them even a shred of the kind respect that you are shown here.

[spartana]

This question of authenticity reminds me of a thought exercise:

Suppose you bought tickets to see a band you liked. There was the normal concert lighting and the band played through their hits with a lot of cheering from the crowd. Now suppose you realized the people on stage werent the actual band members but doppelgängers skilled at lip syncing. Does that change how you felt about the concert just a few minutes earlier when you thought it was the real band members playing live? What if you heard later that the band did this to make a lot more money by being able to do 200 shows a year without actually needing to show up to most of them?

I had similar discussions about Lance Armstrong. When the truth(ish?) came out, I didn’t care much. I thoroughly enjoyed the time I spent watching his cycling exploits. I met some good people, had some great times, and so on. I mentioned to a buddy “well, I wanted to be entertained, and I was. Can’t go back and “unenjoy” those times, nor do I want to.” Surely changes the future, but not the past. I would feel the same with the band. Likely would not go see them again, but the enjoyment of the previous shows was still legitimate enjoyment at the time, and I would remember the good and not worry about the dupe.

Actually it can be dangerous. Many people trying to achieve what Armstrong did not realizing he's using performance enhancing drugs or doping and no amount of training will likely bring them the same results as he had. They could be doing irreparable damage to their bodies in the process. "If Lance can so can I!" Ummm...no.

Same with FW. People are trying to emulate their lifestyle on true modest incomes and may do financial damage to their bottom line (let alone their mental and emotional well being) because if the FW can do it by frugality alone with modest income salaries then what a loser I am for failing.

So it's not just about being duped by someone entertaining who has no effect on you. It's about being duped into following their path based on what they say when that's not really how they did it.

[Longwaytogo]

The problem with, "everyone can do it, it's about savings rate, not income" is that it ignores the marginal utility of money. Your last dollar is worth much much much much more than your 10 millionth dollar.

https://kieranhealy.org/files/misc/killingsworth-f1.jpg

This chart is from happiness / money research that supposedly controls for other things like age/gender/marriage.

It's log-scaled, which is helpful. I did a VERY rough job at trying to transcribe this into a tabular format for some analysis, so take this with a grain of salt:

Consider a 50% savings rate, which MMM says will make you financially independent in 17 years. What if instead of calling this a 50% savings rate, we instead phrased it in terms of the well-being that money buys?



The person making $30K is sacrificing 100% of the happiness that their money can buy them. The people making $120K or above are sacrificing only around 20-25% of the happiness their money can buy them.

It requires 2 to 5 times as much sacrifice to retire in 17 years on a low to middle income, as it does on a high income.

So there are people who can do it at low incomes, but these people are still exceptional. It's just that instead of being exceptional in their earning power, they're probably exceptionally happy people for reasons other than what money can do for them.

That's key, because there are ways to improve your happiness without money or material possessions. But these things also involve a lot of work. So you're trading one type of work for another.

That's a cool way to look at it!

Thanks for sharing.

[Longwaytogo]

My forever-gripe with the PF sphere, is the exceptional person who sells themselves as ordinary. From my perspective, that's either being willfully deceptive, or very very out of touch.

I think this is what it boils down to for me (coupled with the honesty piece).

Like I can look at a professional Athlete or Grammy winning musician making a bunch of money and say, well that's not me. I didn't begin pursuing something like that at a young age, not a prodigy, didn't put in my 10,000+ hours, etc. I'm not going to replicate that.

Similarly a doctor, lawyer, CEO type went to lots of school and has a high stress job that I don't want. The $250K salary sounds cool; but usually the job attached to is does NOT.

----------

So when someone like Frugal woods comes along claiming to be ordinary with a "hey you can do this too" schtick it seems exciting and like something I should read up on and follow.

Then they come along and turns out they WERE extraordinary the whole time making the CEO/Tech salary of a quarter million year. The seems like a lie and slap in the face (to me).

Anyway, it is what it is!  Two of the most authentic and relatable FIRE blogs I ever read were MMM and Root of Good; now they could be lying too; who knows. But it seems they did it on more normal salaries.

-----------

On the folks saying to move out of HCOL area it isn't always that simple. Not trying to get off topic but in my case I'm surrounded by family and friends, grew up here. Also my wife makes ~$100k as a teacher vs $50ish in a LCOL area so it's all kind of relative. Similarly I do high end remodeling were LCOL area it's cheaper and/or lots of DIY folks vs dual income rich people around here that hire out everything.

I do still believe FIRE is possible, I just think its much less probable then I originally believed. Maybe I was Naïve, the excitement of it blinded me to the facts, etc. but I def think it's difficult. 10 years on these forums and I've still only seen a few people do it in real time at a young age.

I think personally the keys are:

1. Start young
2. Start before kids
3. House hack, especially in a HCOL and especially when young and easier to put up with roommates or non traditional living arrangements
4. Focus on rapidly increasing income
5. Frugality

I'd rank them in approx. that order, vs most of the bloggers shouting #5 from the rooftop.

I should stress that I truly believe a vast majority of people, at all levels of income, could get tremendous value out of being more anti-consumerist/pro-saver. In fact, I think that for most of Americans/Canadians, a retiring even a decade prior to 65 is very achievable.

I agree. I'm 43 now and my goal is 55 which is still a decent possibility and if I achieve it I will be THRILLED and a decade ahead of US average; and hopefully in better health to enjoy those 10 years then I'd be at 65.

But when I found all these blogs in 2013 at 33 I thought I'd be retired by 45-ish which seems laughable in hindsight. But I that's more on me, my starting point, my spending, and my naivety then it is on Frugal woods or anyone else.

Hearing their name brought up again till made me salty though, lol.

I've been following your journey for a very long time, LWTG, and I appreciate your contributions around here. But let's face it, (as you freely admit yourself) you aren't really a mustachian. You spend massively on things the FW never did, even though they were earning shitloads of money.

Now here you are saying "It couldn't be done". The reality is that you are 100% correct. It couldn't be done with the choices you've made. Comparing yourself to them is rather disingenuous. You do you, but tearing others down is refusing to share with them even a shred of the kind respect that you are shown here.

1. What does my spending have to do with Financial Samurai or the Frugal woods?

2. Did you read the post your quoting and commenting on?

3. Where did I say "it couldn't be done"?? I said in my opinion it was harder then they implied, in the quote above I literally say I believe FIRE is possible.

4. You've yet to comment on any of the points I (or others) have  made about the Frugal woods being dishonest and instead commented on my on my personal finances which is not what this thread is about.

5. I'm not trying to tear them down, I'm just pointing out they lied and misled folks. I'm not a blogger, but I've been nothing but honest in my Journals and time here. Maybe they could show me the respect of doing the same.

6. In the last 10 years our household income has been ~1.2 million as a family of 4. In the 10 years of the Frugal woods quest to FI primarily as a family of 2 their income was about 3.5 million. If you don't think that's an EASIER path to FIRE then I guess we'll just have to disagree.

----------

You either:

A. Don't think the Frugal woods were dishonest

B. Don't think their dishonesty discounts their message

I do think they were dishonest, and I do think this discounts their message. None of this has anything to do with my "journey" or your journey, this is just us perceiving their blog diffently.

Approx. half (or more) of the people in this thread agree with me that they were full of shit, FIRE porn, total fiction, etc. but because those folks have better savings rates then me their opinions are valid and I'm being disrespectful  /s

[spartana]

^^^ Or another option is to believe the FW weren't intentionally dishonest and that you don't believe their lack of disclosure discounts their message.

I personally have no idea but I do feel their message would have been better if they started out saying they are a couple of very high earning professional in Boston who, unlike their peers who live lavious lives,  are choosing to live a frugal life and save a bunch of our income so that we can retire early to our dream life of county living in Vermont. I don't think anyone would have and issue with that.

But that disclosure part (intentional or unintended) is important imho. I felf the same when I heard that Jacob from ERE wasn't including his SOs share of their joint expenses in his $6k expenses. While still impressive it did muddle the ERE message a bit. Same when I see posters here who don't include a simple sentence to describe their living situation in regards to their expenses. Are you single and living alone? Are you partnered or have roommates and your expenses are half the shared expenses? Etc. It's kind of disappointing when you read about someone's low expenses and high savings rate only to learn later thats just half for a shared housing/expenses situation. 

[bluecollarmusician]

^^^ Or another option is to believe the FW weren't intentionally dishonest and that you don't believe their lack of disclosure discounts their message.

I personally have no idea but I do feel their message would have been better if they started out saying they are a couple of very high earning professional in Boston who, unlike their peers who live lavious lives,  are choosing to live a frugal life and save a bunch of our income so that we can retire early to our dream life of county living in Vermont. I don't think anyone would have and issue with that.

But that disclosure part (intentional or unintended) is important imho. I felf the same when I heard that Jacob from ERE wasn't including his SOs share of their joint expenses in his $6k expenses. While still impressive it did muddle the ERE message a bit. Same when I see posters here who don't include a simple sentence to describe their living situation in regards to their expenses. Are you single and living alone? Are you partnered or have roommates and your expenses are half the shared expenses? Etc. It's kind of disappointing when you read about someone's low expenses and high savings rate only to learn later thats just half for a shared housing/expenses situation.

All excellent points! As they say- Caveat Emptor :-) All part of the learning curve of recognizing how everyone's journey is different.  I think there is a reductive tendency on all of our parts; when we see someone "similar" to us doing something that we can't (or aren't) it is simple (and natural) to look for the smoking gun to say "aha!!" but in reality this is not a simple problem.  We try to make it tractable by finding numbers and crunching them in an equation, but all it really does is make the results of our math consistent... it doesn't make them correct.  Sort of being correct in the wrong things, rather than being wrong in the right things.  I think this is why the "map" is more helpful than a set of directions to those seeking FI independence, particularly if doing it on "less" by modern American standards.  (All more or less plagiarized from Jacob... sorry he said it better and first.)

I think where we (collectively) get in trouble is when we look to someone like FS or FW or anyone else and think by following the steps of their recipe that it will yield a certain result when the number of variables impact on the best steps for any individual is very high.

[GilesMM]

This question of authenticity reminds me of a thought exercise:

Suppose you bought tickets to see a band you liked. There was the normal concert lighting and the band played through their hits with a lot of cheering from the crowd. Now suppose you realized the people on stage werent the actual band members but doppelgängers skilled at lip syncing. Does that change how you felt about the concert just a few minutes earlier when you thought it was the real band members playing live? What if you heard later that the band did this to make a lot more money by being able to do 200 shows a year without actually needing to show up to most of them?

While you are doing the thought exercise, here is an actual example from Real Life!


https://www.the-sun.com/entertainment/9396642/milli-vanilli-what-happened-lip-sync-members/

[eyesonthehorizon]

^^^ Or another option is to believe the FW weren't intentionally dishonest and that you don't believe their lack of disclosure discounts their message.
...

I think the big difference for a lot of us is that traditional mustachians couldn’t imagine thinking spending is irrelevant, & they had pretty perfect transparency about their spending; because that’s what they wanted to discuss, for one, putting it right in the blog title, & for two, had (as most people do!) the greater control over.

You & to some degree I were a little more surprised by ERE Jacob’s situation because what to us mattered was the spending side of the equation. I try to make sure that in my budget breakdowns I always cite I’m accounting for my HALF of a couple but I slip from time to time when in less detail, because it doesn’t feel all that different from having a roommate - it’s a lifestyle choice to not live alone, even if having a roommate be the person you’re romantically involved with is sort of a luck-based privilege & luxury. My spending has been almost the same every year whether alone, with a roommate, or a partner (in that order) though - I just have lessened my vigilant frugality a bit over time.

[JupiterGreen]

Interesting thread. Something I haven't seen brought up in this thread is how generations tend to respond to these FIRE personas. I am going to make some generalizations and of course these things are not true of all people in each generation, just some observations. But I think our reactions to internet personas has a lot to do with our personal experiences in the years we've lived. And also based on how the internet has evolved since the 1990s

Boomer and maybe even older Xers:
Are typically going to expect the most from internet personas and that includes bloggers because they aren't as used to unvetted experts (the internet has really flattened the world and leveled the playing field since these generations were in their 20s). They are most used to obstacles and people earning proper credentials before speaking on a topic. The down side to this is gate keeping. The other downside is a sort of nihilism when they realize there is so much duplicity going on (e.g. all news is fake news). And the older part of these generations are getting scammed all the time because they just don't have as much experience with scammers being able to reach them so easily. They used to pay for "long distance" phone calls and their phone numbers were only found in a book.

Younger X and Millennials:
This group is going to accept a certain amount of fake persona in their bloggers knowing they are curated. These are people who started with dial-up and they remember the early internet of the 90s. So they would spend time reading about woodpeckers from the guy who is obsessed with ivory beaked woodpeckers because he had a free geocities website about his obsession. The woodpecker guy wasn't aware of how the world could watch him, I mean he only got a few like-minded visitors to his site anyway. He was more or less pretty honest, though still curated (like how you clean your house for visitors). He's not going to tell you what he ate for breakfast, I mean why would anyone care (leave that for the 2000s)? These are also the generations that brought the height of the FIRE movement. Between being wildly independent latchkey kids to not being able to find a job during the 08 financial collapse, union busting, shrinking access to pensions, etc. this group had a big incentive to want FI.

I've mentioned this before, but the FW are millenials, and I think that accounts for their "folksy" fashion and facial hair choices (though the beard thing is still a thing for Zs). Not that I think we should criticize people for what they look like, just pointing it out.

Gen Z and young Millennials:
These are people who watch a lot of youtube for their entertainment, they want all the hacks, shortcuts, and are least likely to be here on this forum. I've never met a bigger group of multitaskers (they will watch youtube while working etc). They are disillusioned about their future and want to spend more money now as they fear they will not live through climate change. https://e360.yale.edu/features/for-gen-z-climate-change-is-a-heavy-emotional-burden They still have hope for their internet personalities but give a lot more leeway to them. Like when Jenna Marbles apologized for her racists old content they were torn. They seemed to appreciate the apology and many still supported her (whether the apology was authentic we will never know, but her apology was enough for many of them. She was given permission to reinvent herself). Many of this cohort believe they will make money as influencers and respect the game. They weren't born/don't remember the old internet and cannot imagine searching for ivory woodpeckers and being able to tap into that guy's geocities site. They can't imagine threads in forums where you honestly connect with other human beings who might even share their real names. They tend to be more pessimistic, skeptical and take internet personas/influencers with a grain of salt. They are a lonely cohort who are having less sex https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2023-08-03/young-adults-less-sex-gen-z-millennials-generations-parents-grandparents and fewer meaningful relationships. I don't know why I added that last part, except I worry about them and think we need to support their mental health better.

Alpha:
Since they haven't come of age, it remains to be seen.

As for the FS, yeah I never liked the guy. He's absurd, but I think I respect the game he's trying to play. I don't think he's hurting anyone though my mind could be change since I don't have a strong opinion about him. I also respect the game FW play, they aren't my thing I've done actual farming, it's no joke. I'm a fiercely independent younger X. I'm not looking for an internet guru, I assume people aren't telling me everything (I mean I'm not internet famous and I wouldn't want to be doxxed). I see blogging as work. People should get paid for their work. We get to choose what we buy and I appreciate all the free content out here. My take is, it's up to us to vet the info. But I can see being pissed off if you pay for something that was falsely advertised (as was pointed out in the FW book thread).