Author Topic: Financial Samurai  (Read 17722 times)

jrhampt

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tj

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2024, 03:27:25 PM »
Dude is out of touch with you reality if he believes you need to spend over $300k per year to live a "realistic and comfortable lifestyle".

jrhampt

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2024, 04:31:36 PM »
I actually like him but you always have to read his stuff as tongue-in-cheek. He is good at trolling. I also like the insight of someone who is an immigrant and living at the bottom of the 1% level in an VHCOL area. Again, I don’t aspire to live in that way at all, but it is an interesting perspective.

Contrast him to people like the Frugalwoods who pretended to be homespun and basing their FI on hard work and savings. At least he is being less fake about his aspirations.

Oh and I’m pretty sure he occasionally posts here for research purposes.

I also like his blog (although I haven’t read it for a few years now, I used to read it around the same time I also read Joshua Kennon and Ramit Sethi, a couple of other high spenders).  He is entertaining.

FireOnTheMuffin

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2024, 04:33:11 PM »
@Fru-Gal, wait is there gossip about Frugalwoods that I missed?  I used to follow them but stopped a while ago.

spartanswami

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2024, 05:59:47 PM »
Dude is out of touch with you reality if he believes you need to spend over $300k per year to live a "realistic and comfortable lifestyle".

Agreed, I just ignore his articles nowadays. He's become an attention grabbing pathetic whiner.

Retire-Canada

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Ron Scott

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2024, 07:46:30 PM »
It’s a big world out there. A wide variety of perspectives are an important part of the equation.

Dogen’s OK. Far better to entertain his point of view as a interesting alternative than to sling arrows from an echo chamber.

tj

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2024, 08:00:13 PM »
It’s a big world out there. A wide variety of perspectives are an important part of the equation.

Dogen’s OK. Far better to entertain his point of view as a interesting alternative than to sling arrows from an echo chamber.

I enjoy a wide variety of viewpoints, but I don't find his perspective to be in any way useful.

spartana

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2024, 12:49:36 AM »
It’s a big world out there. A wide variety of perspectives are an important part of the equation.

Dogen’s OK. Far better to entertain his point of view as a interesting alternative than to sling arrows from an echo chamber.

I enjoy a wide variety of viewpoints, but I don't find his perspective to be in any way useful.
Yes he's either a troll or delusional. Feeling he "has" to go back to work because his passive income of approx $230k isn't enough to live on - with a paid off house and no debt - seems pretty delusional to me. He obviously chooses to live a pretty upscale lifestyle.

 "Dogen estimates he'll bring in about $230,000 in nonworking income in 2024. That puts him about $113,000 short of his estimated expenses for the year at what he calls a "realistic and comfortable" lifestyle."

vand

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2024, 02:27:10 AM »
Like with ANYONE that has gained traction by social media/traditional press routes in today's world, at one point they may have written good honest material, but they play the SEO game as they monetize and it evolves into a quest for more eyeballs, and eventually what they present to the world is a very filtered and targeted message designed to self-promote to a particular audience.

NorthernIkigai

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2024, 02:34:24 AM »
I feel I've read "Financial Samurai has to go back to work [because of his exorbitant expenses]" several times in the last few years... Yet apparently he hasn't worked since 2012.

Metalcat

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2024, 05:54:36 AM »
He's a very good troll. I ignore him now.

StarBright

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2024, 07:40:01 AM »
I enjoy his writing style, but have so little in common with his lifestyle/income that I don't relate to it. I basically only read him when his stuff pops up on another website.

To me it is no different than reading a profile of some C list celebrity; a peek into another world that can be entertaining for a few minutes but is generally uninteresting in the long run.   

Turtle

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2024, 08:06:26 AM »
I enjoy his writing style, but have so little in common with his lifestyle/income that I don't relate to it. I basically only read him when his stuff pops up on another website.

To me it is no different than reading a profile of some C list celebrity; a peek into another world that can be entertaining for a few minutes but is generally uninteresting in the long run.

This, exactly. 

He seems to be someone for whom amassing large sums of money is his primary hobby.  It's his choice to do that, but it doesn't make him relatable to or representative of the FIRE community in general.

GilesMM

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2024, 08:14:18 AM »
I heard from someone that knows him personally that the bump he got from the Going Back To Work headlines made him more income than going back to work would have, so he didn't have to after all!   Smart.

lhamo

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2024, 08:34:25 AM »
Please don't feed this troll! 

I have a strong suspicion due to the frequency that his crap turns up on certain websites that he is giving kickbacks to editors for running his ENDLESSLY repetitive articles.

ixtap

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2024, 09:19:48 AM »
I enjoy his writing style, but have so little in common with his lifestyle/income that I don't relate to it. I basically only read him when his stuff pops up on another website.

To me it is no different than reading a profile of some C list celebrity; a peek into another world that can be entertaining for a few minutes but is generally uninteresting in the long run.

This, exactly. 

He seems to be someone for whom amassing large sums of money is his primary hobby.  It's his choice to do that, but it doesn't make him relatable to or representative of the FIRE community in general.

No, but I think FIRE bashing is relatable for a wider audience. And since all happy families are the same, in order to go FIRE bashing you either have to find the brash young things that retired on 6% withdrawal rate for a non inflation adjusted Jacob budget, but without the working spouse and found it limiting or the ones who just can't make ends meet on 3x the median household income. And I get the feeling "failing to live within my budget" is a little too relatable while Sam provides genuine entertainment via absurdity.

tj

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2024, 09:23:00 AM »
Please don't feed this troll! 

I have a strong suspicion due to the frequency that his crap turns up on certain websites that he is giving kickbacks to editors for running his ENDLESSLY repetitive articles.

I suspect that many of these articles are paid.

aloevera1

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2024, 10:27:30 AM »
I remember opening his website 5ish years ago. Got blinded by all the blinking ad banners. Never read anything from him and probably never will.

All these posts just seem like clickbait to drive ad revenue. Kudos to him for a side hustle lol.

ChpBstrd

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2024, 11:44:21 AM »
Saw an interesting video yesterday on "What happened to the FIRE movement?". The creator's explanations for the reduction in interest are:

(1) The radical message of rejecting consumerism and saving 50% or more of your income got watered down enough so that it was indistinguishable from mainstream financial advice. E.g. "OK, save only 15-20% of your income per year." "OK, buy that brand new car." "You can't really retire with more than a 3% WR." Etc.

(2) The post-pandemic shift to working from home removed a lot of people from a lot of toxic office environments and depressing commutes, which in turn reduced their urgency to retire early.

Yet there is also a cultural shift not covered in the video, which could be a 3rd reason.

I agree that Financial Samurai might be playing a smart SEO game, getting headlines which lead to getting clicks. However, his attitude may be reflected in the attitudes of many young people who seek to "get rich or die trying" and are uninterested in the MMM philosophy of maximizing free time and freedom. You see this attitude in the consumerism of Instagram and the pursuit of Lamborghini ownership through wild gambling on WallStreetBets.

F.S. could easily move to anywhere else besides his VHCOL home and live like a king, but that's not good enough. In this way he's left the traditional 20-teens FIRE movement and joined the get-rich-spend-big movement.

Again, it's probably smart marketing for a content creation company. F.S. can follow the trend and talk about the sort of big numbers that mesmerize broke consumers in lower-cost locales.

The advice may be unhealthy, but the wealth porn is more entertaining to the current generation than MMM's stories about riding bikes to the grocery store. The kids raised on social media with much higher lifetime ad exposures are all about peer comparisons. Who has the nicest car? Who lives in the most exclusive place? They're following their elementary school friends through their adulthood, and going silent is not an option. You have to prove yourself in a hypercompetitive, yet conformist, world of constant cell phone updates.

Scandium

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2024, 11:51:27 AM »
@Fru-Gal, wait is there gossip about Frugalwoods that I missed?  I used to follow them but stopped a while ago.

Ugh, their story was so lame once I found out! Weren't they pursuing RE to do "something you care about".. Which turns out is working for a democrat political org, for a $250k salary! I mean if you really care about electing democrats, wouldn't your best work then be to do the work for free! Since they supposedly can. Or even minimal salary? Many people volunteer in politics outside their full time jobs, because they believe in it. But some IT dork who has "financial freedom" gets/demands a 1/4 mill dollar salary.. wow..

aloevera1

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2024, 11:58:29 AM »
Saw an interesting video yesterday on "What happened to the FIRE movement?". The creator's explanations for the reduction in interest are:

(1) The radical message of rejecting consumerism and saving 50% or more of your income got watered down enough so that it was indistinguishable from mainstream financial advice. E.g. "OK, save only 15-20% of your income per year." "OK, buy that brand new car." "You can't really retire with more than a 3% WR." Etc.

(2) The post-pandemic shift to working from home removed a lot of people from a lot of toxic office environments and depressing commutes, which in turn reduced their urgency to retire early.

Yet there is also a cultural shift not covered in the video, which could be a 3rd reason.

I agree that Financial Samurai might be playing a smart SEO game, getting headlines which lead to getting clicks. However, his attitude may be reflected in the attitudes of many young people who seek to "get rich or die trying" and are uninterested in the MMM philosophy of maximizing free time and freedom. You see this attitude in the consumerism of Instagram and the pursuit of Lamborghini ownership through wild gambling on WallStreetBets.

F.S. could easily move to anywhere else besides his VHCOL home and live like a king, but that's not good enough. In this way he's left the traditional 20-teens FIRE movement and joined the get-rich-spend-big movement.

Again, it's probably smart marketing for a content creation company. F.S. can follow the trend and talk about the sort of big numbers that mesmerize broke consumers in lower-cost locales.

The advice may be unhealthy, but the wealth porn is more entertaining to the current generation than MMM's stories about riding bikes to the grocery store. The kids raised on social media with much higher lifetime ad exposures are all about peer comparisons. Who has the nicest car? Who lives in the most exclusive place? They're following their elementary school friends through their adulthood, and going silent is not an option. You have to prove yourself in a hypercompetitive, yet conformist, world of constant cell phone updates.

To be fair, during COVID some mustachianism was forced upon many people. E.g. don't go out, don't travel, don't buy fancy clothes as you have nowhere to wear them to.

This probably made FIRE messaging a lot less attractive. Kind of like.. "what?? this is supposed to be the desired lifestyle? God, no, I'd rather work for a bunch more years and travel than living like this". There were other emotional pressures at the time. However, I think people in general saw a much higher savings rate while the general enjoyment of life plummeted because of the forced nature of savings.

I can see how this makes the whole concept a lot less appealing.

Dicey

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2024, 12:35:14 PM »
@Fru-Gal, wait is there gossip about Frugalwoods that I missed?  I used to follow them but stopped a while ago.

Ugh, their story was so lame once I found out! Weren't they pursuing RE to do "something you care about".. Which turns out is working for a democrat political org, for a $250k salary! I mean if you really care about electing democrats, wouldn't your best work then be to do the work for free! Since they supposedly can. Or even minimal salary? Many people volunteer in politics outside their full time jobs, because they believe in it. But some IT dork who has "financial freedom" gets/demands a 1/4 mill dollar salary.. wow..
What does his political affiliation have to do with anything? He wasn't FI the whole time he was working. Why should any of us be expected to be a volunteer while we're earning our way towards FIRE?

Here's a different spin: He learned an in-demand skillset, found a well-paying job, saved extreme amounts of money, then pulled the plug to live his dream. Sound like any one else we all know? Would anyone call Pete a dork?

I believe it can be a lot harder to save money when you're making shitloads of it. The FW set goals, walked their talk, avoided lifestyle creep, and made it happen. Why would anyone here find this shameful?

If you want to hate on them, find better reasons.

P.S. I hate to harsh on you, Fru-Gal, because our thoughts align on many topics. You're certainly not the first to be critical of the FW, but they do deserve credit for what they've accomplished, even if they weren't transparent with their finances. OTOH, they weren't earning that kind of money when they first set their plans in motion.

Back on topic. Perhaps I'm feeling rant-y because of the subject of this thread. I eyerolled so hard when I saw the title, I may have hurt something. FS is a joke, and I refuse to click on his bait.

To quote the great James Baldwin, "Those who say it can't be done are usually interrupted by others doing it." Sorry FS, it CAN be done.

Scandium

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2024, 01:01:04 PM »
@Fru-Gal, wait is there gossip about Frugalwoods that I missed?  I used to follow them but stopped a while ago.

Ugh, their story was so lame once I found out! Weren't they pursuing RE to do "something you care about".. Which turns out is working for a democrat political org, for a $250k salary! I mean if you really care about electing democrats, wouldn't your best work then be to do the work for free! Since they supposedly can. Or even minimal salary? Many people volunteer in politics outside their full time jobs, because they believe in it. But some IT dork who has "financial freedom" gets/demands a 1/4 mill dollar salary.. wow..
What does his political affiliation have to do with anything? He wasn't FI the whole time he was working. Why should any of us be expected to be a volunteer while we're earning our way towards FIRE?

Here's a different spin: He learned an in-demand skillset, found a well-paying job, saved extreme amounts of money, then pulled the plug to live his dream. Sound like any one else we all know? Would anyone call Pete a dork?

The affiliation doesn't matter, people volunteer on both sides. When I read it the story was they were already "FIRE", he just had a small job for extra income.. He'd already pulled the plug, except didn't mention this little fact. Pete at least stopped working, and didn't charge $250k/yr for the volunteer work he did, after he "didn't need the money".

It was the combination of already being FI (supposedly). Doing something you believed in instead, but also charging a $250k salary for it that really got me.

FireOnTheMuffin

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2024, 01:15:13 PM »
@Retire-Canada, thanks for filling me in.  I'm all caught up now on the drama!

@Scandium and @Fru-Gal, I see now there are a lot of competing opinions about FW.  Looking at the website now, I guess my main feeling is not to judge them based on Mr. FW's high salary and line of work, but that they made people think they weren't making that much, and have now turned around their viewership into some kind of Martha Stewart look for personal finance consulting.  All the glamor shots are a lot to take in when compared to her no-clothes-buying days when I used to read the blog.  I guess that's the ick factor for me, but even Mrs. FW's prices for her consulting don't bother me that much.  People glom onto the fact that it's $1500 for 90 mins, but she at least makes it sound like she spends some time prior to that call gathering the client's information and thinking deeply on it to present solutions/suggestions during the call.  Sounds like she gives them some materials, too.  She also offers 30min free initial consultation.

fuzzy math

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2024, 01:50:03 PM »

Oh and I’m pretty sure he occasionally posts here for research purposes.

Under a name easily attributed to him or as a rando?

tj

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2024, 03:18:04 PM »
Saw an interesting video yesterday on "What happened to the FIRE movement?". The creator's explanations for the reduction in interest are:

(1) The radical message of rejecting consumerism and saving 50% or more of your income got watered down enough so that it was indistinguishable from mainstream financial advice. E.g. "OK, save only 15-20% of your income per year." "OK, buy that brand new car." "You can't really retire with more than a 3% WR." Etc.

(2) The post-pandemic shift to working from home removed a lot of people from a lot of toxic office environments and depressing commutes, which in turn reduced their urgency to retire early.

Yet there is also a cultural shift not covered in the video, which could be a 3rd reason.

I agree that Financial Samurai might be playing a smart SEO game, getting headlines which lead to getting clicks. However, his attitude may be reflected in the attitudes of many young people who seek to "get rich or die trying" and are uninterested in the MMM philosophy of maximizing free time and freedom. You see this attitude in the consumerism of Instagram and the pursuit of Lamborghini ownership through wild gambling on WallStreetBets.

F.S. could easily move to anywhere else besides his VHCOL home and live like a king, but that's not good enough. In this way he's left the traditional 20-teens FIRE movement and joined the get-rich-spend-big movement.

Again, it's probably smart marketing for a content creation company. F.S. can follow the trend and talk about the sort of big numbers that mesmerize broke consumers in lower-cost locales.

The advice may be unhealthy, but the wealth porn is more entertaining to the current generation than MMM's stories about riding bikes to the grocery store. The kids raised on social media with much higher lifetime ad exposures are all about peer comparisons. Who has the nicest car? Who lives in the most exclusive place? They're following their elementary school friends through their adulthood, and going silent is not an option. You have to prove yourself in a hypercompetitive, yet conformist, world of constant cell phone updates.


Even MMM has admitted just minor improvements are okay:

https://fb.watch/qbEZqhmEq_/

https://twitter.com/mrmoneymustache/status/1755796119937048905
« Last Edit: February 13, 2024, 03:33:03 PM by tj »

tj

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2024, 03:22:21 PM »
@Fru-Gal, wait is there gossip about Frugalwoods that I missed?  I used to follow them but stopped a while ago.

Ugh, their story was so lame once I found out! Weren't they pursuing RE to do "something you care about".. Which turns out is working for a democrat political org, for a $250k salary! I mean if you really care about electing democrats, wouldn't your best work then be to do the work for free! Since they supposedly can. Or even minimal salary? Many people volunteer in politics outside their full time jobs, because they believe in it. But some IT dork who has "financial freedom" gets/demands a 1/4 mill dollar salary.. wow..
What does his political affiliation have to do with anything? He wasn't FI the whole time he was working. Why should any of us be expected to be a volunteer while we're earning our way towards FIRE?

Here's a different spin: He learned an in-demand skillset, found a well-paying job, saved extreme amounts of money, then pulled the plug to live his dream. Sound like any one else we all know? Would anyone call Pete a dork?

The affiliation doesn't matter, people volunteer on both sides. When I read it the story was they were already "FIRE", he just had a small job for extra income.. He'd already pulled the plug, except didn't mention this little fact. Pete at least stopped working, and didn't charge $250k/yr for the volunteer work he did, after he "didn't need the money".

It was the combination of already being FI (supposedly). Doing something you believed in instead, but also charging a $250k salary for it that really got me.

MMM easily made that amount from his blog though. So, by your logic, Pete should not have ever monetized his blog or his early retired persona, he should only volunteer his time to spread his message.

Scandium

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2024, 03:31:07 PM »
MMM easily made that amount from his blog though. So, by your logic, Pete should not have ever monetized his blog or his early retired persona, he should only volunteer his time to spread his message.

Uhm, nope. Not comparable. He wrote stuff that people could read for free and advertisers paid for. And he's not a priest spreading gospel either. He don't have to care if someone save money on groceries or not, has no impact on him.
Vs someone who (presumably) wants to elect certain politicians, then taking (IMO frankly obscene) salary from that organization's limited budget available to achieve their goals.
I guess there's a chance that FW guy didn't care about which politicians get elected, and just wants the salary and would do it for anyone. But that was not what I got from the admittedly limited info.

Captain Cactus

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2024, 03:59:10 PM »
@Fru-Gal, wait is there gossip about Frugalwoods that I missed?  I used to follow them but stopped a while ago.

A couple threads:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what's-up-with-the-frugalwoods/

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/go-curry-cracker-(jeremie-and-winnie)-updates/

Frugalwoods = FIRE porn.  A bunch of phonies trying to ape folksy country people.

Edited to ad: he grew a stupid Amish beard to look super folksy, which I resent.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2024, 04:09:07 PM by Captain Cactus »

tj

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2024, 04:29:01 PM »
MMM easily made that amount from his blog though. So, by your logic, Pete should not have ever monetized his blog or his early retired persona, he should only volunteer his time to spread his message.

Uhm, nope. Not comparable. He wrote stuff that people could read for free and advertisers paid for. And he's not a priest spreading gospel either. He don't have to care if someone save money on groceries or not, has no impact on him.
Vs someone who (presumably) wants to elect certain politicians, then taking (IMO frankly obscene) salary from that organization's limited budget available to achieve their goals.
I guess there's a chance that FW guy didn't care about which politicians get elected, and just wants the salary and would do it for anyone. But that was not what I got from the admittedly limited info.


I think bloggers made way more $$$ off affiliate marketing (people signing up for stuff that costs money) vs. advertisements.

eyesonthehorizon

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2024, 06:01:35 AM »
Quote
he grew a stupid Amish beard

In contrast, Mustachians choose appropriate facial hair
Sounds to me like a way to save on shaving supplies. (When did they start posting identifying photographs, though? I remember revisiting the blog & being shocked to see faces.)

Separately (not a reply) I always perceived that the distaste toward the frugalwoods came from the popular misconception that being frugal or humble has to mean you’re either poor or cosplaying poverty for gain (nobody would actually CHOOSE to live frugally, feeling sincerely that it suits them or their values! Imagine.) I would think very carefully before becoming a public woman on the internet, period, & especially as the blog took off not long after their careers did, having that additional target on you from being perceived as a rich public woman (when it’s a generous, but not rich, family income, not private security detail money) ... with ties to politics, in the mid-twenty-teens political climate of unhinged political aggression & expanding terror threats against women in male-dominated fields ... probably didn’t look very appealing, especially in light of the first assumption. Since income in excess of chosen expenses is irrelevant to those chosen expenses, disclosing their increased income seems like a risky proposition with little upside. Honesty in the field of their financial hobbies backfired by creating an expectation of total entitlement to their whole financial life.

Liz was generally a font of good ideas to boot so I am sorry that the community often judges that her enthusiasm for frugality was somehow a skeevy pretense, whereas Pete’s was eccentric but wholesome. I think they’ve both been pretty wholesome, even if they’ve both relaxed a lot on their budgeting, but Pete has some advantages in simply being a dude, he doesn’t have to be ashamed of a willingness to get paid well. I believe thread is the very first time I’ve seen any critiques aimed at Mr.-Woods, as even discussion of his income or career historically seemed to land back on her as if having a high-paid spouse obligated her to drop frugality & pivot to a more traditional pursuit like shopping or disappearing entirely.

Community skepticism at the frugalwoods, who seemed to want to build a community for their frugality hobby in a helpful way (with really very little monetization of that branding until the consulting - she even encouraged people to get the biography at the library & that all the advice was free online!), & yet a free pass for FS’s rampant, pandering troll shtick, selling (& aggressively monetizing) the narrative you essentially have no hope of “reasonable comfort” until you grind your way to spending well over a quarter million a year, seems really backwards to me. Who’s adding something beneficial, & why? Doom-peddling in the service of ostentatious consumption is a complete antithesis of mustachianism; the only intersection is that money comes up.

Metalcat

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2024, 06:12:36 AM »
Quote
he grew a stupid Amish beard

In contrast, Mustachians choose appropriate facial hair
Sounds to me like a way to save on shaving supplies. (When did they start posting identifying photographs, though? I remember revisiting the blog & being shocked to see faces.)

Separately (not a reply) I always perceived that the distaste toward the frugalwoods came from the popular misconception that being frugal or humble has to mean you’re either poor or cosplaying poverty for gain (nobody would actually CHOOSE to live frugally, feeling sincerely that it suits them or their values! Imagine.) I would think very carefully before becoming a public woman on the internet, period, & especially as the blog took off not long after their careers did, having that additional target on you from being perceived as a rich public woman (when it’s a generous, but not rich, family income, not private security detail money) ... with ties to politics, in the mid-twenty-teens political climate of unhinged political aggression & expanding terror threats against women in male-dominated fields ... probably didn’t look very appealing, especially in light of the first assumption. Since income in excess of chosen expenses is irrelevant to those chosen expenses, disclosing their increased income seems like a risky proposition with little upside. Honesty in the field of their financial hobbies backfired by creating an expectation of total entitlement to their whole financial life.

Liz was generally a font of good ideas to boot so I am sorry that the community often judges that her enthusiasm for frugality was somehow a skeevy pretense, whereas Pete’s was eccentric but wholesome. I think they’ve both been pretty wholesome, even if they’ve both relaxed a lot on their budgeting, but Pete has some advantages in simply being a dude, he doesn’t have to be ashamed of a willingness to get paid well. I believe thread is the very first time I’ve seen any critiques aimed at Mr.-Woods, as even discussion of his income or career historically seemed to land back on her as if having a high-paid spouse obligated her to drop frugality & pivot to a more traditional pursuit like shopping or disappearing entirely.

Community skepticism at the frugalwoods, who seemed to want to build a community for their frugality hobby in a helpful way (with really very little monetization of that branding until the consulting - she even encouraged people to get the biography at the library & that all the advice was free online!), & yet a free pass for FS’s rampant, pandering troll shtick, selling (& aggressively monetizing) the narrative you essentially have no hope of “reasonable comfort” until you grind your way to spending well over a quarter million a year, seems really backwards to me. Who’s adding something beneficial, & why? Doom-peddling in the service of ostentatious consumption is a complete antithesis of mustachianism; the only intersection is that money comes up.

???

Except that any time frugalwoods is posted about here, a huge contingent defend them. Any time FS is posted, he's generally called a troll.

Most threads that post his articles are met with responses like "don't even open it, he's a troll and doesn't deserve your clicks"

So I'm not sure I agree that this community is okay with FS and not cool with FW.

Also I take issue with FW, but none of your interpretations of the reasons why someone would take issue with them align with my reasons. I won't get into them because we have multiple threads hashing this out.

But yeah, FW have tons of support here, FS, not so much.

And MMM has been HEAVILY criticised every time he's posted anything for the past many years.

ScreamingHeadGuy

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2024, 08:50:54 AM »
Fuck that guy.  Don’t feed the troll.

Scandium

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2024, 09:41:29 AM »
discussion of his income or career historically seemed to land back on her as if having a high-paid spouse obligated her to drop frugality & pivot to a more traditional pursuit like shopping or disappearing entirely.

holy leaps of logic beyond comprehension.. No idea where you came up with this absurd conclusion, but congrats I guess. I've already spelled out my issues with Mr FW. And I have no opinions on her at all really.

Dicey

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2024, 10:18:41 AM »
@Fru-Gal, wait is there gossip about Frugalwoods that I missed?  I used to follow them but stopped a while ago.

A couple threads:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what's-up-with-the-frugalwoods/

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/go-curry-cracker-(jeremie-and-winnie)-updates/

Frugalwoods = FIRE porn.  A bunch of phonies trying to ape folksy country people.

Edited to ad: he grew a stupid Amish beard to look super folksy, which I resent.
He had the beard at the beginning, shaved it off briefly, and grew it again. Since he had it when they lived in Cambridge, I doubt he was trying to be "folksy".

I can't believe the amount of resentment here. They pretty much followed the MMM plan to the letter. Has Pete ever revealed his exact earnings per- and post-FIRE?

Why would anyone here waste a drop of their life's energy resenting anything about the FW? What a waste of your finite resources. There are plenty of lessons to be learned from their story, take what's useful to you (if anything) and ignore the rest. Unlike FS, who has nothing to offer a mustachian these days, FW's content can still be useful. I'm not suggesting anyone pay for it, lol, because the same info's available here. It's just not packaged neatly into tidy 90-minute chunks. But then, most folks are not mustachians and could probably benefit from their guidance.


Chris Pascale

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2024, 10:55:36 AM »
@Fru-Gal, wait is there gossip about Frugalwoods that I missed?  I used to follow them but stopped a while ago.

A couple threads:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what's-up-with-the-frugalwoods/

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/go-curry-cracker-(jeremie-and-winnie)-updates/

Frugalwoods = FIRE porn.  A bunch of phonies trying to ape folksy country people.

Edited to ad: he grew a stupid Amish beard to look super folksy, which I resent.

Why would anyone here waste a drop of their life's energy resenting anything about the FW?

To really display a waste of finite resources, I present the following:

In my case, it's because I'm the kind of idiot who thinks people are telling the truth all the time, and so when someone gives the very clear impression that they probably make under $100k and live off $25k, and I cannot come close to replicating half of this despite that they also lived in a HCOLA with a baby, it's like motherfuckers!!!! You could have said that your quote about 'not being investment bankers' was actually saying you make well more than most of them.

But they definitely inspired a lot of people positively, and should be credited for this. Examples would be that she didn't go to the salon for haircuts. My wife might go twice a year (not bc of the FWs), and it's saved us tons of money over the years. Same for her not getting her nails done.

But they were frugal to a fault, and so get demerits, as well (don't worry, I'll serve as the demerit arbiter. You can thank me later). The many examples of just being cheap are uncalled for when you have so much. Not cutting a check to someone on their wedding day (I imagine it's the same in Boston as in NY - the couple gets cash), bartering for yoga lessons, taking a coat from a donation bin, and then - to really show everyone she's frugal - didn't get the zipper fixed.

As for the Amish beard, I declare it as meh. But their costumes for the PBS interview were really just bizarre, and then the subsequent freak out over "accepting their privilege" and the attempts to control the messaging off of their website were interesting to me.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2024, 10:58:44 AM by Chris Pascale »

seattlecyclone

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2024, 11:20:02 AM »
@Fru-Gal, wait is there gossip about Frugalwoods that I missed?  I used to follow them but stopped a while ago.

Ugh, their story was so lame once I found out! Weren't they pursuing RE to do "something you care about".. Which turns out is working for a democrat political org, for a $250k salary! I mean if you really care about electing democrats, wouldn't your best work then be to do the work for free! Since they supposedly can. Or even minimal salary? Many people volunteer in politics outside their full time jobs, because they believe in it. But some IT dork who has "financial freedom" gets/demands a 1/4 mill dollar salary.. wow..
What does his political affiliation have to do with anything? He wasn't FI the whole time he was working. Why should any of us be expected to be a volunteer while we're earning our way towards FIRE?

Here's a different spin: He learned an in-demand skillset, found a well-paying job, saved extreme amounts of money, then pulled the plug to live his dream. Sound like any one else we all know? Would anyone call Pete a dork?

The affiliation doesn't matter, people volunteer on both sides. When I read it the story was they were already "FIRE", he just had a small job for extra income.. He'd already pulled the plug, except didn't mention this little fact. Pete at least stopped working, and didn't charge $250k/yr for the volunteer work he did, after he "didn't need the money".

It was the combination of already being FI (supposedly). Doing something you believed in instead, but also charging a $250k salary for it that really got me.

Sounds basically along the same lines of what I've done. I hit FI, left the workforce for a couple of years, had some ongoing volunteering gigs, but decided I wanted to do something more broadly beneficial with my time than what seemed feasible with available volunteer opportunities.

I spent a bit over a year working for a startup trying to reduce greenhouse gas emissions through more efficient supply chains in the agriculture industry, and am now at a nonprofit with an educational mission. I'm not pulling in $250k, but I'm also much closer to that number than $0. I don't think there's anything wrong with expecting to be compensated for your time when you're committing so much of it. The people I work with every day are being paid, and it would be kind of weird socially if I wasn't. I could definitely earn more elsewhere if I was optimizing for wealth over direct impact. I suspect the same is true of Mr. FW.

farmecologist

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2024, 11:28:42 AM »
Here’s what FS gave me of value: A sense of the possibility of saving MORE than what others were doing. I think I found him from googling “average value of 401k/IRA by age.” He has a very popular article about what the ABOVE AVERAGE saver should have. I had a lot of money reprogramming to do over my working life and this was helpful in overcoming a victim mentality (“what’s the point of saving, we’re all fucked”).

He also has a different perspective on living in a VHCOL area in terms of the value it brings to your life and why, indeed, it is VHCOL for that reason (I live in such an area).

I also like many of his work ethic stories. I pay absolutely no attention to his “going back to work” or crazy inflated expenses. And of course I figure his stated personal wealth is fudged up or down according to his whims/purposes.

I used to have a similar opinion of FS.   However, I now view it as entertainment value only as the vast majority of his articles do not seem to cater to the "base group" of FIRE individuals.  If anything, his articles lately seem to be "wealth porn" that cater more to the small subset of "chubby FIRE" folks.


Longwaytogo

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2024, 02:37:11 PM »
I can't believe the amount of resentment here.

I don't resent them, I just DISMISS them and everything they've ever said because it was a lie.  Saying you make an "average" salary which was ~$50K in 2014 when I read their blog when you really make ~$350k is dishonest,  as has been discussed in the other threads ad naseum.

When I found all these FIRE Blogs I was a SAHD making $15-20k on weekends and watching other kids while my wife made about $65K as a teacher. Here I am thinking I'm an idiot for not being able to make ends meet in a Maryland Suburb when they're saving more then 50% of their salary in Cambridge Mass. But its because their salary was SO MUCH HIGHER, that makes in my opinion EVERY SINGLE THING they ever said irrelevant.

Claiming you make an average salary when you make 10-20% above average is an exaggeration, claiming you make average salary when you make seven times the average is a LIE!!

And to answer your question above MMM outlined his approx 10 year salary (and his wifes) leading to their FIRE here:

https://mrmoneymustache.com/2011/09/15/a-brief-history-of-the-stash-how-we-saved-from-zero-to-retirement-in-ten-years/


To really display a waste of finite resources, I present the following:

In my case, it's because I'm the kind of idiot who thinks people are telling the truth all the time, and so when someone gives the very clear impression that they probably make under $100k and live off $25k, and I cannot come close to replicating half of this despite that they also lived in a HCOLA with a baby, it's like motherfuckers!!!! You could have said that your quote about 'not being investment bankers' was actually saying you make well more than most of them.

EXCATLY!!!

The Frugal woods have got rich and retired, good for them! I've got plenty of relatives and clients who have done the same. But none of them look down at me acting like I spend too much money on restraunts or haircuts when they KNOW they made way above average salaries and I don't.

Everything about them just gives me an ick/lying/scammer/out for likes and clicks feeling. On top of that in my opinion they went out of their way to lie by using percentages and saying it excluded investments or even rent and convoluting the numbers so much it seemed impossible to figure out the real story. I understand privacy but to me they were outright deceitful and dishonest.

Like in what world does 401k not count as savings? Article below quote form 2014-

Quote
As a result, I’m proud to announce that we’ve hit a savings rate of 82%!

This percentage is calculated from the amount of our take home pay that we save every month, which doesn’t include our 401K contributions–in other words, we max out our 401Ks before calculating our rate of savings.

This means we’re managing to live on just 18% of our combined incomes while we sock away the rest!

They were calculating saving rate AFTER 401k MAXING, what the what?? So your spending about $3,500 a month per her other reports which is 42,000 and you have an 82% savings rate meaning you saved ~$168K PLUS 2 peoples 401k at $17,500 each meaning a total savings of $203,000.00

Add to that the $42K they spent and your at $245K AFTER TAXES meaning they were making around $350K figuring a 30% tax burden between state/federal FICA.

If my household income were $350K instead of $80K then I 100% can guarantee I'd of been able to save more money, not 80% but maybe 50 or even 30. Point being it was'nt the skipping pizza or haircuts that got them to FIRE it was the SEVEN TIMES median household income.

Just say your living on 10% of your income and we can see you spend $35K a year and equate that to a $350K salary. We can then realize we make less, try to make more, or just ignore their Blog and figure it's not for us. But when you go out of  your way to beat around the bush and act like 90% of your FIRE success is based on frugality rather then earning it's going to leave a sour taste for us peasants with normal jobs.

End rant/

Longwaytogo

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #40 on: February 14, 2024, 02:44:07 PM »
@Fru-Gal, wait is there gossip about Frugalwoods that I missed?  I used to follow them but stopped a while ago.

Ugh, their story was so lame once I found out! Weren't they pursuing RE to do "something you care about".. Which turns out is working for a democrat political org, for a $250k salary! I mean if you really care about electing democrats, wouldn't your best work then be to do the work for free! Since they supposedly can. Or even minimal salary? Many people volunteer in politics outside their full time jobs, because they believe in it. But some IT dork who has "financial freedom" gets/demands a 1/4 mill dollar salary.. wow..
What does his political affiliation have to do with anything? He wasn't FI the whole time he was working. Why should any of us be expected to be a volunteer while we're earning our way towards FIRE?

Here's a different spin: He learned an in-demand skillset, found a well-paying job, saved extreme amounts of money, then pulled the plug to live his dream. Sound like any one else we all know? Would anyone call Pete a dork?

I believe it can be a lot harder to save money when you're making shitloads of it. The FW set goals, walked their talk, avoided lifestyle creep, and made it happen. Why would anyone here find this shameful?

If you want to hate on them, find better reasons.

P.S. I hate to harsh on you, Fru-Gal, because our thoughts align on many topics. You're certainly not the first to be critical of the FW, but they do deserve credit for what they've accomplished, even if they weren't transparent with their finances. OTOH, they weren't earning that kind of money when they first set their plans in motion.

Back on topic. Perhaps I'm feeling rant-y because of the subject of this thread. I eyerolled so hard when I saw the title, I may have hurt something. FS is a joke, and I refuse to click on his bait.

To quote the great James Baldwin, "Those who say it can't be done are usually interrupted by others doing it." Sorry FS, it CAN be done.

The lying, the lying is the reason.

Exactly same way I feel about Frugal woods, no reason to ever click/read them again. I don't have an interest in a high stress $250K job so anything they have written is not repeatable or relatable to me (much like financial Samuira)

At least (from what I remember) he was clear he made a great salary the whole time. That's specifically the reason I never read his stuff way back when.

Chris Pascale

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #41 on: February 14, 2024, 05:28:52 PM »
Quote
he grew a stupid Amish beard

In contrast, Mustachians choose appropriate facial hair

Liz was generally a font of good ideas to boot so I am sorry that the community often judges that her enthusiasm for frugality was somehow a skeevy pretense, whereas Pete’s was eccentric but wholesome. I think they’ve both been pretty wholesome, even if they’ve both relaxed a lot on their budgeting, but Pete has some advantages in simply being a dude, he doesn’t have to be ashamed of a willingness to get paid well. I believe thread is the very first time I’ve seen any critiques aimed at Mr.-Woods, as even discussion of his income or career historically seemed to land back on her as if having a high-paid spouse obligated her to drop frugality & pivot to a more traditional pursuit like shopping or disappearing entirely.


It might have been coincidental that when I first saw Pete, his shtick was something like "we made $150k, lived in a cheap area, rode bikes, and only had 1 kid." He steps into his backyard and is like "here are weights," sits down with other people and says "this is entertainment."

Transparency is helpful.

Lack of transparency is unhelpful.

The FW story (narrated by Liz and obviously supported by Nate) was just so silly. They are truly extraordinary people (4.0 GPA, for example) but wanted to tell a story of being the most average one can be - "we're not investment bankers, but we have potlucks, drink office coffee, and pay ourselves first - even with a baby; even in Boston."

People would have been very happy to hear, "we got great educations, lucked into [or maybe skilled into; tell me more about that!] a great income, and then refused to buy more than we need.......pushing the limits at times.

Sexism is not why Liz is criticized for playing a character in a field where authenticity matters. Her true story has great value, and we'd have all been interested in it because financial independence takes all kinds. Even above-avg people who marry someone equally smart, and then harness a laser-like focus, perhaps as a result of growing up to be well-adjusted and physically/mentally/emotionally strong because of having such great upbringings.

The last part is in the intro to her book.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2024, 05:31:46 PM by Chris Pascale »

tj

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #42 on: February 14, 2024, 06:56:37 PM »
Interesting how recent threads about both GoCurryCracker and FinancialSamurai basically turned into rants about the Frugalwoods.

Longwaytogo

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #43 on: February 14, 2024, 08:03:24 PM »
Interesting how recent threads about both GoCurryCracker and FinancialSamurai basically turned into rants about the Frugalwoods.

It is interesting, in my opinion it's indicative of how many folks felt bamboozled. Ton of Reddit threads about them too from when the book came out.

tj

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #44 on: February 14, 2024, 08:27:43 PM »
Interesting how recent threads about both GoCurryCracker and FinancialSamurai basically turned into rants about the Frugalwoods.

It is interesting, in my opinion it's indicative of how many folks felt bamboozled. Ton of Reddit threads about them too from when the book came out.

You're not kidding about Reddit.

I discovered /r/blogsnark and of course Frugalwoods ism entioned in the most recent financial thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/blogsnark/comments/1ahftck/financial_bloggers_february_2024/konrkf5/

I'm really glad that I gave up public blogging.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2024, 08:37:47 PM by tj »

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #45 on: February 14, 2024, 09:06:00 PM »
@Fru-Gal, wait is there gossip about Frugalwoods that I missed?  I used to follow them but stopped a while ago.

Ugh, their story was so lame once I found out! Weren't they pursuing RE to do "something you care about".. Which turns out is working for a democrat political org, for a $250k salary! I mean if you really care about electing democrats, wouldn't your best work then be to do the work for free! Since they supposedly can. Or even minimal salary? Many people volunteer in politics outside their full time jobs, because they believe in it. But some IT dork who has "financial freedom" gets/demands a 1/4 mill dollar salary.. wow..

Actually many of them don’t.  At least those that just don’t volunteer for a specific candidate.  My job is election adjacent non political.  No one above the base level is working for free, even those that are often looking for something other than just electing the candidate.

Fomerly known as something

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #46 on: February 14, 2024, 09:12:08 PM »
I never got into FW and really not deeply into FS either — I do read his newsletter, and have to laugh at his annual newsletter ruminations about getting into or out of the stock market. But like I said he does not upset me, and FW didn’t attract me. Simple as that. Also both FS and MMM are immigrants to the US and that is a perspective I greatly enjoy.

To me FS is similar to Tech Lead on YouTube, fairly obviously tongue in cheek.

FS is not an immigrant.  His parents worked for the US department of State as US citizens. 

Fru-Gal

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2024, 12:39:07 AM »
Quote
FS is not an immigrant.  His parents worked for the US department of State as US citizens.

I stand corrected.

Instead I’ll say both MMM and FS have significant experience growing up outside the US (and FS is bilingual), and I find that interesting.

Metalcat

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2024, 05:22:42 AM »
Interesting how recent threads about both GoCurryCracker and FinancialSamurai basically turned into rants about the Frugalwoods.

Because it's very common to compare FIRE bloggers to each other, but a single mention of FW breaks out into heated debate largely because the FW defenders have very strong opinions that the FW critics are in the wrong.

People don't get as heated criticizing any other FIRE bloggers because other fire bloggers don't generally have staunch defenders.

That's not a criticism of anyone, just an explanation of why bringing up FW inevitably takes over a thread.

Captain Cactus

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Re: Financial Samurai
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2024, 05:38:55 AM »
Frugalwoods put on an act (folksy dress, stupid hipster beard, country-working-man costume) to appear accessible to average struggling people with dreams of FIRE but were actually highly paid and by all accounts gifted people. It was dishonest, period.  It’s FIRE pornography through and through…”look at this fantasy life, you can have it too, you can have what we have…just keep looking and reading and clicking and being frugal and you can be like us…read our blog and escape for a while. If you really want to have what we have, you should also buy our book”.  Dishonest.

Honestly, the final straw for me was when they started showing up on all the fire podcasts promoting their book.  You’ve lured in a sizable audience with your FIRE porn and now you’re leveraging it into book sales and now financial consulting.  The whole thing feels skeevy and dishonest and takes advantage of people.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!