Poll

Assume family of four, networth includes 200k home, no paying for college

< 750k
8 (3.8%)
750k to 900k
11 (5.2%)
900k to 1.1M
18 (8.5%)
1.1M to 1.3M
26 (12.3%)
1.3M to 1.5M
24 (11.4%)
1.5M to 1.7M
31 (14.7%)
1.7M to 2M
30 (14.2%)
2M to 2.3M
22 (10.4%)
2.3M to 2.7M
12 (5.7%)
2.7M to 3M
5 (2.4%)
3M to 3.5M
10 (4.7%)
3.5M to 4M
6 (2.8%)
4M to 5M
2 (0.9%)
5M+
6 (2.8%)

Total Members Voted: 210

Author Topic: Family FIRE number  (Read 13555 times)

whywork

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 207
Family FIRE number
« on: August 18, 2018, 03:55:46 PM »
Poll along similar lines for a family; assume 2 kids, no paying for college and 200k house

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9332
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2018, 04:15:08 PM »
So I should answer this poll as my spending plus a 200k mortgage. Why wouldn't we just ignore the house all together. 

whywork

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 207
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2018, 11:08:01 PM »
Yeah that would have been fine as well but the reason I went this way is that we can get a bare minimum FIRE number with everything included. If we are calculating monthly expenses may be we can give the numbers without housing but for giving a FIRE number it theoretically doesn't make sense as you still have to live somewhere.

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9332
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2018, 03:30:39 AM »
But then including a 200k house makes no sense. You're intentionally fixing it. It would be like if I posted. What would your fire networth be if you had to spend 40k per year but your house value could be whatever you choose.  Also I fully expect to pay for college at my answer bc the overwhelming likelihood hood is my money will grow to the sky and since we'll be fi by the time our oldest is 5.5 years old then we'll have many years to let that money keep growing. 

Another comparison would be what is your fire number if you only bought what you needed to live but could live anywhere with a mortgage of whatever you want.

I guess I just don't get why youd fix one of the largest variables.

Cranky

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3842
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2018, 07:19:27 AM »
I don't exactly understand the question, either - much depends on your age and how long you'll have dependent kids, plus no way would I quit work on the grounds that I wasn't going to help my kids with school, plus... healthcare. And having 4 people means you need to be a lot more serious about where you live, IMO.

TheAnonOne

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1753
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2018, 07:27:00 AM »
This question might as well be what is your 'yearly spending' with a 200k house and 2 kids.

I imagine for most on this board its 40k +- 10k, maybe as high as 60k for the lamer of us.

BTDretire

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3074
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2018, 08:17:51 AM »
I voted $1.7M to $2M, meaning I would have $1.5M to $1.8M in financial assets able to be used to generate income, without touching my home equity.
 I know a lot of people like the $40k a year money, but health ins...
I'm paying $12k that would leave me $28k on the well liked $40k a year.

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9332
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2018, 09:35:53 AM »
I voted $1.7M to $2M, meaning I would have $1.5M to $1.8M in financial assets able to be used to generate income, without touching my home equity.
 I know a lot of people like the $40k a year money, but health ins...
I'm paying $12k that would leave me $28k on the well liked $40k a year.

If you're paying 12k for health insurance your income is higher than 40k. When I use the top of the 12% bracket for a family of four  I can get insurance for 100 a month. 1/10th what you say you're paying

Cranky

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3842
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2018, 09:38:36 AM »
Well, you're not going to be a family of 4 forever - if you're 35, and your kids are 10yo (-ish), you are going to have a lot of years to pay for health insurance, which gets a lot more expensive as you get older.

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9332
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2018, 09:59:43 AM »
Well, you're not going to be a family of 4 forever - if you're 35, and your kids are 10yo (-ish), you are going to have a lot of years to pay for health insurance, which gets a lot more expensive as you get older.

Not with the ACA. And it will have changed considerably by then. We'll be like other first world countries. Or I'll just move to one or a third world one with better care at better prices.

DreamFIRE

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1593
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2018, 10:27:59 AM »
If you're going to poll people, you shouldn't expect them to assume they are a certain family size with a specific value of home.  Poll them based on their reality, or you just get "made up' answers.

I'm a family of one.  I exclude my home equity since I won't be drawing down on it and simply use my stash number.  If I included my home in my 4% SWR, I would get a higher figure that my stash may not support.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 10:33:04 AM by DreamFIRE »

EnjoyIt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1386
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2018, 10:31:52 AM »
If you're going to poll people, you shouldn't expect them to assume they are a certain family size with a specific value of home.  Poll them based on their reality.

I'm a family of one.  I exclude my home equity since I won't be drawing down on it and simply use my stash number.

I don't have exactly 2 kids and my home is not $200k.  I guess I can't answer the poll.

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9332
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2018, 10:32:12 AM »
If you're going to poll people, you shouldn't expect them to assume they are a certain family size with a specific value of home.  Poll them based on their reality.

I'm a family of one.  I exclude my home equity since I won't be drawing down on it and simply use my stash number.

I'm pretty sure OP is looking to compare to their situation. And to be fair there is no such thing as a family of one. By definition a family is a group consisting of parents and children living together in a household.

DreamFIRE

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1593
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2018, 10:37:16 AM »
And to be fair there is no such thing as a family of one.

The OP used the word "family" and wanted people to "assume" they had a family of 4.

I could multiply my current stash by 4 to extrapolate out for a family of 4, but then I would basically be making up numbers that don't match reality.

Here's a similar poll that says "if you are single".  That person uses net worth with a cap on the home value instead of stash as well:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/single-fire-number/
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 11:07:17 AM by DreamFIRE »

beer-man

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 121
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2018, 11:39:03 AM »
Our number with the parameters suggested is between 600-800k. That is assuming downshifting to something just part time enough to provide health benefits.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cranky

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3842
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2018, 12:45:37 PM »
Well, you're not going to be a family of 4 forever - if you're 35, and your kids are 10yo (-ish), you are going to have a lot of years to pay for health insurance, which gets a lot more expensive as you get older.

Not with the ACA. And it will have changed considerably by then. We'll be like other first world countries. Or I'll just move to one or a third world one with better care at better prices.

And I disagree. People do get charged different amount for ACA policies at different ages. I know several people in their 50's who are paying really substantial amounts for ACA policies. I do not believe that we will see UHC in my lifetime, and because I *do* have a family, I'm not interested in moving to another country (which is easier said than done, anyway.)

And no matter WHAT your insurance policy, your out of pocket healthcare costs tend to go up with age.

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9332
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2018, 12:52:37 PM »
Well, you're not going to be a family of 4 forever - if you're 35, and your kids are 10yo (-ish), you are going to have a lot of years to pay for health insurance, which gets a lot more expensive as you get older.

Not with the ACA. And it will have changed considerably by then. We'll be like other first world countries. Or I'll just move to one or a third world one with better care at better prices.

And I disagree. People do get charged different amount for ACA policies at different ages. I know several people in their 50's who are paying really substantial amounts for ACA policies. I do not believe that we will see UHC in my lifetime, and because I *do* have a family, I'm not interested in moving to another country (which is easier said than done, anyway.)

And no matter WHAT your insurance policy, your out of pocket healthcare costs tend to go up with age.

You're spending too much money if you're paying outrageous premiums. Your anecdotal evidence of knowning people who pay alot is a dumb statement since it's purely based on income. Which you can control in FIRE.

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9332
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2018, 01:09:48 PM »
To be clear my comment was directed at someone saying spending 40k was impossible when you have to spend 12k on health insurance. I just ran the numbers for 40k and 2 57 year olds and the bronze premium is free.

DreamFIRE

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1593
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2018, 01:33:44 PM »
To be clear my comment was directed at someone saying spending 40k was impossible when you have to spend 12k on health insurance. I just ran the numbers for 40k and 2 57 year olds and the bronze premium is free.

ACA premiums are based on MAGI, not spending.  If you're spending down cash, Roth, and principal, your MAGI would be considerably less than your spending.  Also, getting a bronze plan is a mistake when you can qualify for CSR with a silver plan to keep out of pocket costs lower.

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9332
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2018, 01:39:40 PM »
To be clear my comment was directed at someone saying spending 40k was impossible when you have to spend 12k on health insurance. I just ran the numbers for 40k and 2 57 year olds and the bronze premium is free.

ACA premiums are based on MAGI, not spending.  If you're spending down cash, Roth, and principal, your MAGI would be considerably less than your spending.  Also, getting a bronze plan is a mistake when you can qualify for CSR with a silver plan to keep out of pocket costs lower.

Agreed i was making it pretty much worst case and a silver plan was only 140 a month still a far cry from 12k proposed above on 40k spending

whywork

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 207
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2018, 02:37:27 PM »
Yeah monthly expenses is what I was looking for; As per the early retirement extreme folks, they live for as low as even 14k per year for a family of two. Our current non rent expenses are ~ 2750$. Details below

Grocery & household:   400
Eat Out: 200
Entertainment: 200
Misc. (One time buys / Clothes / Shoes etc): 200
Car (gas, ins, registration & maint.): 230
Cell: 160
Home Phone: 50
Utilities (elec, gas, misc): 150
Internet: 65
kids classes: 70
kids tuition / kumon: 125
kids school   : 50
Healthcare (Prem. + OOP):   600
Vacation: 250

If I add rent of 1k to it, I am looking at 45k yearly expenses. Due to ACA, the healthcare total cost will go down to 200$ (based on 36k MAGI, I see premium of 78$ and max OOP of 120$ per month), which can bring it down to 40k per year. This is 1M needed for (our) family. If you want to pay for kids college add 200k. So my FIRE target will be 1.2M and anything above that is to feel more safer.

whywork

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 207
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2018, 02:50:07 PM »
But then including a 200k house makes no sense. You're intentionally fixing it. It would be like if I posted. What would your fire networth be if you had to spend 40k per year but your house value could be whatever you choose.  Also I fully expect to pay for college at my answer bc the overwhelming likelihood hood is my money will grow to the sky and since we'll be fi by the time our oldest is 5.5 years old then we'll have many years to let that money keep growing. 

Another comparison would be what is your fire number if you only bought what you needed to live but could live anywhere with a mortgage of whatever you want.

I guess I just don't get why youd fix one of the largest variables.

The answer lies in there, because it is the largest variable. Having it be whatever can change the numbers radically. Yes as you said it is the same as any other luxury spending but I want to get a sense of what's the bare minimum if your home price is set to bare minimum fixed. As I mentioned in my post above, our expenses without considering rent / home are 33k. With a basic home or renting I am looking at 40k post retirement expenses or 1M FIRE number.

Now this basic number can be flared up in anyway you want by changing the luxuries as below

Spend 500$ more in eating out and entertainment: Total expenses 46k, 1.15M FIRE number
Spend 1000$ more in eating out and entertainment: Total expenses 52k, 1.3M FIRE number
Pay for kids college: FIRE at 1.2M
Buy a home worth 500k: FIRE at 1.6M
Buy a home worth 1M: FIRE at 2.3M

I could have asked for FIRE number without any house expenses but that would be imaginary number. You have to pay rent anyway.

EnjoyIt

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1386
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2018, 02:55:52 PM »
To be clear my comment was directed at someone saying spending 40k was impossible when you have to spend 12k on health insurance. I just ran the numbers for 40k and 2 57 year olds and the bronze premium is free.

ACA premiums are based on MAGI, not spending.  If you're spending down cash, Roth, and principal, your MAGI would be considerably less than your spending.  Also, getting a bronze plan is a mistake when you can qualify for CSR with a silver plan to keep out of pocket costs lower.

Agreed i was making it pretty much worst case and a silver plan was only 140 a month still a far cry from 12k proposed above on 40k spending

Don't forget the deductible every year if one develops chronic health issues.  But still a far cry from $12k/yr. 

Although we can keep expenses down, I do not suspect we will be getting much of a subsidy when out of semi-retirement and therefor plan on having to pay premiums and deductibles.  This also buys us some assurance that if the subsidies disappear we are still covered.  Also, all the supplementals in medicare are not free and this prepares us for them as well. 

I think expecting to pay $0 or close to it in healthcare cost in perpetuity may be a bit short sited. Our plan works for us because we don't plan on quitting completely and can comfortably work part time because we want to.  For those who are fed up with work and need to quite ASAP, they may want to take on the health care risk with the potential of working in the future.

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9332
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2018, 03:02:41 PM »
Oh iagree healthcare needs to be a considered expense but it needs to be a reasonable consideration. We were blowing some numbers out of proportion in this thread.

whywork

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 207
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2018, 03:04:19 PM »
We have 64 responses so far and the majority votes go to these numbers

1.1M to 1.3M --> 12.3%
1.3M to 1.5M --> 12.3%
1.5M to 1.7M --> 18.5%
1.7M to 2M   -->  21.5%

This is ~65% of the people who felt it is between 1 and 2M.
12% felt less than 1 M would be good for the FIRE number
23% felt we need 2M+

I personally think the below;

700K - FU money
850k - You are lean FIRE
1M - You can live a decent life
1.5M - A more comfortable life; You can pay kids college for 200k and will have 1k EXTRA fun money per month as ROI from the 300k extra
2M plus - You can start leaving some to kids and / or can buy a bigger home
« Last Edit: August 19, 2018, 03:06:24 PM by whywork »

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9332
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2018, 03:32:49 PM »
It completely depends on what you spend. And where you live. So when you say you you should be saying I above

DreamFIRE

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1593
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2018, 05:13:56 PM »
I could have asked for FIRE number without any house expenses but that would be imaginary number. You have to pay rent anyway.

There's a difference between housing "expenses" and "net worth".

As I mentioned, I use my stash (not net worth) to multiply by 4% for a SWR, which excludes my home's value.

But the 4% rule includes spending such as housing expenses like property tax, utilities, and home maintenance.

No, I don't have to pay rent or make any house payments.  I keep the house equity itself out of my 4% equation as long as my plan is to stay in it.

singpolyma

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 66
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2018, 05:26:40 PM »
We have only one kid, but plan to have a second, and I don't plan to ever own a house (more work and expense for what?) -- so fairly close to the asked-for situation. Our number is $1M CAD, so just over $750k USD (so I put that on the poll)

soccerluvof4

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 7161
  • Location: Artic Midwest
  • Retired at 50
    • My Journal
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2018, 09:48:37 AM »
I could have asked for FIRE number without any house expenses but that would be imaginary number. You have to pay rent anyway.

There's a difference between housing "expenses" and "net worth".

As I mentioned, I use my stash (not net worth) to multiply by 4% for a SWR, which excludes my home's value.

But the 4% rule includes spending such as housing expenses like property tax, utilities, and home maintenance.

No, I don't have to pay rent or make any house payments.  I keep the house equity itself out of my 4% equation as long as my plan is to stay in it.





Same!

We be free if we try

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 125
  • Location: Bay Area
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2018, 10:05:35 AM »
The numbers skew a lot based on COL, even if you own your home. If the cheapest available home within 50 miles of the California coast is $600k, the property taxes and insurance on that, plus higher health insurance, food, and other costs like the resulting higher income taxes, make $80k more realistic than $40k. I get it, no one is forced to live here, but it's nice if you can swing it, and your teens expect to stay!

cloudsail

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 556
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2018, 11:37:42 AM »
I'm curious for the 5M+ people, what is your target? How much over 5M? Why do you believe that you need so much money?

Although my target is 3 - 3.5M, which probably seems incredibly wasteful to many people. But we have a child with special needs, and we've always lived in very HCOL places, so just trying to build in a good buffer. Also we are a high income family, so the number is pretty attainable for us. We expect to retire before 40.

My husband told me about this motivational speaker who insists that you need at least 10M to be financially secure, LOL.

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9332
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2018, 11:41:20 AM »
I used to think I needed 5MM and was shooting for 50 for retirement. Then I found this site and now we're shooting for 2MM but we'd hit 5MM by 45 at the rate we're saving.

One

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 247
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2018, 01:16:40 PM »
I'm curious for the 5M+ people, what is your target? How much over 5M? Why do you believe that you need so much money?

Although my target is 3 - 3.5M, which probably seems incredibly wasteful to many people. But we have a child with special needs, and we've always lived in very HCOL places, so just trying to build in a good buffer. Also we are a high income family, so the number is pretty attainable for us. We expect to retire before 40.

My husband told me about this motivational speaker who insists that you need at least 10M to be financially secure, LOL.

I think your target 3-3.5 would be great!   5M+ would probably insulate you from most lawsuits, divorce, other unforeseen catastrophic events. The more the better. 

whywork

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 207
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2018, 11:40:07 PM »
As they say the first 1M is the hardest, 2nd is easier and after that it accumulates pretty quickly

We spend many years for accumulating the first; Due to various reasons like lower pay, being ignorant of FIRE principles etc...

Once we reach our FIRE number after so many years (say 15-20), working for each additional year grows our NW at an exponential pace. If it sounds foolish to stop at that FIRE number, then it could very well be. So many people continue to work saying OMY and I feel getting to 2-3M if it is reachable with just few more years of work is not a bad idea. Taking it one year at a time (post FI) is a good strategy

Prairie Stash

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1795
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2018, 08:45:24 AM »
I'm curious for the 5M+ people, what is your target? How much over 5M? Why do you believe that you need so much money?

Although my target is 3 - 3.5M, which probably seems incredibly wasteful to many people. But we have a child with special needs, and we've always lived in very HCOL places, so just trying to build in a good buffer. Also we are a high income family, so the number is pretty attainable for us. We expect to retire before 40.

My husband told me about this motivational speaker who insists that you need at least 10M to be financially secure, LOL.

I think your target 3-3.5 would be great!   5M+ would probably insulate you from most lawsuits, divorce, other unforeseen catastrophic events. The more the better.
Except every single year brings your 2 hypothetical kids closer to leaving the nest...

With a family there are certain assumed events that will happen. At some point between 18-25, my children will move out. There is a finite amount of years at hom, thats just natural. If my kids are 10 and 12 and I decide to spend an extra decade to get to 5 MM, I can look forward to an empty nest.

So reaching for 5 MM can bring forward a foreseen event, Empty Nest.

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9332
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2018, 09:37:51 AM »
I'm curious for the 5M+ people, what is your target? How much over 5M? Why do you believe that you need so much money?

Although my target is 3 - 3.5M, which probably seems incredibly wasteful to many people. But we have a child with special needs, and we've always lived in very HCOL places, so just trying to build in a good buffer. Also we are a high income family, so the number is pretty attainable for us. We expect to retire before 40.

My husband told me about this motivational speaker who insists that you need at least 10M to be financially secure, LOL.

I think your target 3-3.5 would be great!   5M+ would probably insulate you from most lawsuits, divorce, other unforeseen catastrophic events. The more the better.
Except every single year brings your 2 hypothetical kids closer to leaving the nest...

With a family there are certain assumed events that will happen. At some point between 18-25, my children will move out. There is a finite amount of years at hom, thats just natural. If my kids are 10 and 12 and I decide to spend an extra decade to get to 5 MM, I can look forward to an empty nest.

So reaching for 5 MM can bring forward a foreseen event, Empty Nest.

he's just a troll go look around at the other random things he's been posting that add 0 value to the conversation.

One

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 247
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2018, 05:34:26 PM »
I'm curious for the 5M+ people, what is your target? How much over 5M? Why do you believe that you need so much money?

Although my target is 3 - 3.5M, which probably seems incredibly wasteful to many people. But we have a child with special needs, and we've always lived in very HCOL places, so just trying to build in a good buffer. Also we are a high income family, so the number is pretty attainable for us. We expect to retire before 40.

My husband told me about this motivational speaker who insists that you need at least 10M to be financially secure, LOL.

I think your target 3-3.5 would be great!   5M+ would probably insulate you from most lawsuits, divorce, other unforeseen catastrophic events. The more the better.
Except every single year brings your 2 hypothetical kids closer to leaving the nest...

With a family there are certain assumed events that will happen. At some point between 18-25, my children will move out. There is a finite amount of years at hom, thats just natural. If my kids are 10 and 12 and I decide to spend an extra decade to get to 5 MM, I can look forward to an empty nest.

So reaching for 5 MM can bring forward a foreseen event, Empty Nest.

he's just a troll go look around at the other random things he's been posting that add 0 value to the conversation.

boarder42, I'm sure your coworkers will be pleased when you FIRE, he who knows everything knows nothing at all

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9332
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2018, 05:47:40 PM »
I'm curious for the 5M+ people, what is your target? How much over 5M? Why do you believe that you need so much money?

Although my target is 3 - 3.5M, which probably seems incredibly wasteful to many people. But we have a child with special needs, and we've always lived in very HCOL places, so just trying to build in a good buffer. Also we are a high income family, so the number is pretty attainable for us. We expect to retire before 40.

My husband told me about this motivational speaker who insists that you need at least 10M to be financially secure, LOL.

I think your target 3-3.5 would be great!   5M+ would probably insulate you from most lawsuits, divorce, other unforeseen catastrophic events. The more the better.
Except every single year brings your 2 hypothetical kids closer to leaving the nest...

With a family there are certain assumed events that will happen. At some point between 18-25, my children will move out. There is a finite amount of years at hom, thats just natural. If my kids are 10 and 12 and I decide to spend an extra decade to get to 5 MM, I can look forward to an empty nest.

So reaching for 5 MM can bring forward a foreseen event, Empty Nest.

he's just a troll go look around at the other random things he's been posting that add 0 value to the conversation.

boarder42, I'm sure your coworkers will be pleased when you FIRE, he who knows everything knows nothing at all

See 0 value

Prairie Stash

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1795
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2018, 08:55:27 AM »

he's just a troll go look around at the other random things he's been posting that add 0 value to the conversation.
Can you PM with suggestions for improvements? Or are you randomly name calling?

I find it unfortunate that you dislike me without offering any help. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me and I'll learn from it. Or just shut people down if it makes you feel better.

I have my own view on life and sometimes struggle to understand others. I get a lot out of this forum in the way of understanding others and their unique situations. You don't have to agree with me, or read anything I post, I don't understand why you would want to reply just to call me a troll.

I really struggle to figure out how calling anyone a troll adds any value to any conversation? Without any sarcasm; could you let me know? Its something I truly don't understand and feel it could help in the future. I mean that with sincerity, I don't understand this comment.

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9332
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2018, 09:11:03 AM »

he's just a troll go look around at the other random things he's been posting that add 0 value to the conversation.
Can you PM with suggestions for improvements? Or are you randomly name calling?

I find it unfortunate that you dislike me without offering any help. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me and I'll learn from it. Or just shut people down if it makes you feel better.

I have my own view on life and sometimes struggle to understand others. I get a lot out of this forum in the way of understanding others and their unique situations. You don't have to agree with me, or read anything I post, I don't understand why you would want to reply just to call me a troll.

I really struggle to figure out how calling anyone a troll adds any value to any conversation? Without any sarcasm; could you let me know? Its something I truly don't understand and feel it could help in the future. I mean that with sincerity, I don't understand this comment.

I'm not calling you a troll I was talking about one. I have no issues with you or your posting.

Prairie Stash

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1795
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2018, 11:26:47 AM »


I'm not calling you a troll I was talking about one. I have no issues with you or your posting.
That's good, I generally enjoy your replies. I often disagree with you (repectfully I hope), you're used to people disagreeing I imagine - see any mortgage payoff thread (multiple pages of disagreement without people looking for merit in your views). In disagreement I learn quite a bit, I've tailored some of your advice to fit my needs, as you know I'm Canadian so it took some extra thought to deal with local banking rules, but I have done so. If you ever think I trolled you in your mortgage threads I'm sorry, I stopped replying when I learned enough.

On topic - I'm under 1 million for savings with a family. My choice is driven by my 2 year old daughter, I choose to take the increased failure risk so I can spend more time at home before she starts school. For myself, Empty Nest is a huge factor. I'm among the cohort, with a family, who decreased total savings to FIRE, precisely to spend more time with them.

Whereas others require more money for FIRE with a family (increased expenses), I took the approach its better to Lean FIRE, for my family. I spent a lot of time considering social bonding, studies showing parental involvement and other potential benefits of increased contact at a young age. At later ages, past 12, I find there's less benefit to having increased parental involvement, its the youngest ages that matter most. It's also the time that most people need to pad their stash the most, a significant contradicting priority. What's better; time with your preschool children or increased financial security for your children?

I'm gambling on working later if necessary, and more time now is best. I see merit in my decision, I think its worth considering, decreasing the stash to spend more time with children.

However, since I'm Canadian the number is artificially lower, no medicare worries here. My children will also receive paid for tuition, no worries there.

letsdoit

  • Bristles
  • ***
  • Posts: 405
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2018, 12:17:33 PM »
This question might as well be what is your 'yearly spending' with a 200k house and 2 kids.

I imagine for most on this board its 40k +- 10k, maybe as high as 60k for the lamer of us.

we spend 75k and are not lame. 

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9332
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2018, 12:39:02 PM »
This question might as well be what is your 'yearly spending' with a 200k house and 2 kids.

I imagine for most on this board its 40k +- 10k, maybe as high as 60k for the lamer of us.

we spend 75k and are not lame.

Lame from a mustachian perspective. It's so cool to be offended today!

TheAnonOne

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1753
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2018, 05:06:58 PM »
This question might as well be what is your 'yearly spending' with a 200k house and 2 kids.

I imagine for most on this board its 40k +- 10k, maybe as high as 60k for the lamer of us.

we spend 75k and are not lame.

Lame from a mustachian perspective. It's so cool to be offended today!

Yeah, have you even read the core MMM blog? 75k is basically a 'WTF ARE YOU DOING' emergency level of waste from that perspective.

I spend 40-50k and with another 35k to reach your level of spending I could basically go on unlimited trips around the world to the best resorts and still maintain 2 car payments for corvettes.

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9332
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2018, 05:40:00 PM »
This question might as well be what is your 'yearly spending' with a 200k house and 2 kids.

I imagine for most on this board its 40k +- 10k, maybe as high as 60k for the lamer of us.

we spend 75k and are not lame.

Lame from a mustachian perspective. It's so cool to be offended today!

Yeah, have you even read the core MMM blog? 75k is basically a 'WTF ARE YOU DOING' emergency level of waste from that perspective.

I spend 40-50k and with another 35k to reach your level of spending I could basically go on unlimited trips around the world to the best resorts and still maintain 2 car payments for corvettes.

I'm at this level of waste including the mortgage. I take this site as a buffet of offers. I just don't get why people take offense to so amny statements.

LWYRUP

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1059
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #45 on: August 25, 2018, 07:30:40 AM »
This question might as well be what is your 'yearly spending' with a 200k house and 2 kids.

I imagine for most on this board its 40k +- 10k, maybe as high as 60k for the lamer of us.

we spend 75k and are not lame.

Lame from a mustachian perspective. It's so cool to be offended today!

Yeah, have you even read the core MMM blog? 75k is basically a 'WTF ARE YOU DOING' emergency level of waste from that perspective.

I spend 40-50k and with another 35k to reach your level of spending I could basically go on unlimited trips around the world to the best resorts and still maintain 2 car payments for corvettes.

Isn't 75k spread over for people arguably more frugal than 40-50k for one person?

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9332
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2018, 07:54:29 AM »
This question might as well be what is your 'yearly spending' with a 200k house and 2 kids.

I imagine for most on this board its 40k +- 10k, maybe as high as 60k for the lamer of us.

we spend 75k and are not lame.

Lame from a mustachian perspective. It's so cool to be offended today!

Yeah, have you even read the core MMM blog? 75k is basically a 'WTF ARE YOU DOING' emergency level of waste from that perspective.

I spend 40-50k and with another 35k to reach your level of spending I could basically go on unlimited trips around the world to the best resorts and still maintain 2 car payments for corvettes.

Isn't 75k spread over for people arguably more frugal than 40-50k for one person?

Man this site really is getting saturated with main stream. Very few single people here are spending 40-50k. We spend that pre mortgage for a family of 3. 40-50k is piles of spending. I live in a lake front house with a.boat and we travel all over the world. We even go out to eat too much IMO and drink way more booze than we probably should.  If you can't live a life of excess on 40-50k you should be receiving evaluating how youre spending.

Cranky

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3842
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #47 on: August 25, 2018, 09:37:02 AM »
But it's a lot more fun and easier to pinch pennies when you don't have to than because there's such a limited amount of pennies available. I like knowing that we can get by on well less than $30K if necessary, but that it probably won't be necessary unless there's some world wide penny problem.

I've had a summer full of expensive surprises, so I'm glad to have more pennies than I strictly need.

Also, I think this all goes back to the argument about defining "comfortable" ... it's just really going to be personal.

boarder42

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 9332
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #48 on: August 25, 2018, 10:36:34 AM »
But it's a lot more fun and easier to pinch pennies when you don't have to than because there's such a limited amount of pennies available. I like knowing that we can get by on well less than $30K if necessary, but that it probably won't be necessary unless there's some world wide penny problem.

I've had a summer full of expensive surprises, so I'm glad to have more pennies than I strictly need.

Also, I think this all goes back to the argument about defining "comfortable" ... it's just really going to be personal.

I 100% agree but people with spending like mine shouldn't get up in arms when they find out they are quite wasteful.

LWYRUP

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1059
Re: Family FIRE number
« Reply #49 on: August 25, 2018, 11:02:45 AM »
This question might as well be what is your 'yearly spending' with a 200k house and 2 kids.

I imagine for most on this board its 40k +- 10k, maybe as high as 60k for the lamer of us.

we spend 75k and are not lame.

Lame from a mustachian perspective. It's so cool to be offended today!

Yeah, have you even read the core MMM blog? 75k is basically a 'WTF ARE YOU DOING' emergency level of waste from that perspective.

I spend 40-50k and with another 35k to reach your level of spending I could basically go on unlimited trips around the world to the best resorts and still maintain 2 car payments for corvettes.

Isn't 75k spread over for people arguably more frugal than 40-50k for one person?

Man this site really is getting saturated with main stream. Very few single people here are spending 40-50k. We spend that pre mortgage for a family of 3. 40-50k is piles of spending. I live in a lake front house with a.boat and we travel all over the world. We even go out to eat too much IMO and drink way more booze than we probably should.  If you can't live a life of excess on 40-50k you should be receiving evaluating how youre spending.

Given that I have a small split-level house built in 1950s that's nowhere near a lake and don't have any boat, it's possible the cost of living between our locations is different.  It's also possible that the salaries in my location are higher, thus making the cost of living a wash. 

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!