Author Topic: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much  (Read 9519 times)

Fastfwd

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Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« on: February 27, 2014, 05:50:19 AM »
I make a good salary and always saved 18% net income. Now I coud save 50%+ net but for two problems:
- Two expensive cars that drink a lot of gas
- Wife that wants to live now and travel

The two are not completely unrelated.
We already owned one SUV that we got when we started to travel with the kids. At first it was for the crib, stroller, ... Now it's for sports gear. We really need 2 cars and really need at least one station wagon. Now we sold the other car and bought a huge pickup to get an RV and travel this way instead of paying for 4 expensive plane tickets each trip.

Cars are paid for and I have winter and summer tires in the right size so I don't want to sell to get a slightly cheaper older model. Maybe I could save a little there but it would not be very significant.

Big truck and RV are a plan to spend less but right now they sure feel like I'm spending more. Anyone was ever in that situation? Must be cheaper because most poorer people do camping vacations and most rich and spending people take the plane. Right?

I can probably save 40% net this year. Maybe even 50% if everything goes well. Without a travel budget I could probably save 60%+. Not sure it' worth it.

soccerluvof4

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2014, 05:58:13 AM »
Its all about decisions right? What is a need/desire and what your goals are.  I have seen some pretty pretty fancy RV's out there not to mention the cost to park them, maintenance etc... I had to make the same decision as I have a cabin that is a 4 hour drive with all the toys , boats, snowmobiles etc..all in which i owned BUT i came to the realization with 4 kids I just cant get there to Justify so I sold the 3 boats and 5 sleds and The Cabin will be up for sale as soon as this Artic Midwest weather breaks. This is a decision i made base on the cost to own as opposed to having the money working for me with lack of use. Will get me even more prepared for the long haul. Trucks and Suv's are just killers. But again it comes down to what you want to achieve.

jba302

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2014, 06:03:45 AM »
It sounds like you are already over the decision hill, so are you asking if you should have not done this to begin with or how to work with what you have? What is your income and what did you end up spending on the truck/rv combo?

Russ

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2014, 06:09:36 AM »
"you can have anything you want but you can't have everything"

If you're going to travel, actually do the math on RV vs. plane tickets so you can make an informed decision rather than just guess / "do what everyone else does". Also RV != camping vacation. All you need for those is a tent (not even always)

Fastfwd

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2014, 06:12:34 AM »
What is your income and what did you end up spending on the truck/rv combo?

Net family income is around 100k.
Sold 16k 2008 car to get 34k 2011 truck. Add 1500$ for winter tires on top of that. So almost 20k but 3 years younger; I can probably keep this until I am FI(2025-ish) and probably won't need 2 cars by then.
RV is not bought yet but I expect 14-18k$ for a good condition 5-6 years old model. Would keep for up to 4 years before the kids outgrow wanting to go on long trips without their friends.
Right now fuel is at 500-600$ per month. Could be 300$ with 2 good MPG cars.

Fastfwd

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2014, 06:16:41 AM »
If you're going to travel, actually do the math on RV vs. plane tickets
...
Also RV != camping vacation. All you need for those is a tent (not even always)

Long term math is definitely better with the RV. Especially since this means a vacation can be all summer long for not much more expenses(parking fees). Short term math is not so good and it's hard to pinpoint exactly after how many years because it depends a lot on what kind of plane trips and how much fuel will be used by the truck.

We have tried both extremes last year. Rented a big bus motorhome RV and also did the tent thing. I found that I enjoy having my own shower and AC for hot summer nights. We'll keep the tent for hiking expeditions.

Michread

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2014, 06:36:13 AM »
Life is short - enjoy your family and camping!  It's a balance. 

We spent way too much for a new SUV and camper many years ago (both sold now) and have never regretted it.  Some of our best family memories are from camping with our little boys. 

MrsPete

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2014, 06:45:36 AM »
Lots of thoughts on these topics:

- Saving money doesn't mean foregoing a life for now.  You say your wife thinks this way, but your post sounds like you do too, at least to some extent. 

- We had a van when the kids were smaller and we were toting strollers and so forth, but once it wore out, we didn't find a need for another large vehicle.  Sports equipment should fit into a smaller car -- it may mean keeping the trunk cleaned out or making the kids sit closer together, but it's do-able.  We drive small cars now (because they fit our lifestyle), and we occasionally rent a van when it seems appropriate for a vacation; for example, when we took our nieces with us on a vacation, we could not all fit into our small car.  This is cheaper than keeping the big car all the time. 

- Your travel choices are not limited to two options:  1) Buy an expensive RV or 2) Buy four expensive plane tickets.  You have a wealth of options in addition to these.  Don't limit yourself. 

- A few years ago we wanted to do a cross-country driving vacation (emphasis on western national parks).  WONDERFUL TRIP.  We began with the idea that we'd rent an RV, our main motivation being saving money; however, when we began to run the actual figures, we found that we could stay in hotels for MUCH, MUCH LESS money.  Like less than 50% less.  I had numbers at that point, but it was several years ago -- we over them multiple times and double checked ourselves because we were so surprised at the difference between the actual cost and our expectations.  We stayed in cabins in the national parks sometimes, hotels other times, but the math wasn't even close.  In all fairness, we were looking at renting the RV rather than buying (because we have no desire to own the RV long-term and couldn't find a way to borrow/barter from a friend).  We came to this conclusion:  If you enjoy the lifestyle, buying an RV can be a viable choice -- but it is not a budget choice.  Not when you consider the gas, the insurance, the campsite fees. 

- No, poor people don't always camp, and rich people don't always do the plane-ticket vacations.  That's an oversimplification of the world.  Some poor people spend beyond their means to do the plane flights.  Some rich people enjoy camping.  Most people do a little of each. 

- The other thing about buying the RV is that its initial large expense "locks you into" the camping choice.  Whereas, if you look into driving trips you can do in your own car, you can do a skimp-cost trip this year because your other expenses are high right now, but save for an expensive trip that requires plane tickets next year. 

- Since you do own the RV, you might consider supplementing your vacation income by renting it out to friends.  Or, if you don't want to rent it yourself, there are companies that "hold" your RV on their storage lot and handle rentals for you.  As I said, when we looked into renting an RV, it was VERY expensive. 

phred

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2014, 12:03:03 PM »
the poor people who go camping in their SUV or pickup truck generally do not have a car besides. 

Jamesqf

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2014, 12:15:31 PM »
Also RV != camping vacation. All you need for those is a tent (not even always)

Beat me to it :-)  Even if the OP wants something a little above the tent, an older Toyota 4Runner can carry kid(s) and a reasonable amount of gear, and pull a tent trailer.

MsSindy

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2014, 12:38:46 PM »
When we camped growing up it involved the family station wagon, an old tent, and national parks, not an RV. That's your answer.

Yes!!  This was us!  5 kids, a dog, wood-paneled Ford station wagon (with awesome jumpseats in the back) and a big-ass green tent!  I think my Mom rolled out a foam matress in the back of the station wagon and us kids (and the dog) slept in the tent.  No fancypants anything.  Had the time of our life.

Focus on the memories, and not on "the stuff".  Easier said than done in today's world, especially once you've already acquired "the stuff".

Jamesqf

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2014, 12:51:05 PM »
Also RV != camping vacation. All you need for those is a tent (not even always)

Beat me to it :-)  Even if the OP wants something a little above the tent, an older Toyota 4Runner can carry kid(s) and a reasonable amount of gear, and pull a tent trailer.

MrFancypants

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2014, 12:57:16 PM »
You can be into cars and still be frugal and thrifty.  If you're saving 40% to 50% while maintaining what you have I'd say you're doing something right.

OldDogNewTrick

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2014, 01:06:43 PM »
Problem with owning an RV is that it's a slightly cheaper version of owning a boat. We've done both. If you can't pay cash for it and cannot park it in your yard... warning! You think you'll use it ALL the time, but truth is after the initial every weekend trips it mostly sits at the RV lot. We LOVE both RVing and boating... so we rent when the budget and urge aligns. Oh, another thing... the accessories.... have you BEEN to CampingWorld? A never ending parade of must-have budget buster items that are just sooo tempting.

We've taken up tent camping again... kind of nostalgic. National Parks, County Parks, etc.. all have great campsites with modern bathroom facilities. We take our bikes, fire wood, cast iron dutch oven....a lot of fun.




MrFancypants

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2014, 01:28:20 PM »
It seems like keeping a good vehicle for cross country trips and renting cabins for a few days where you're going may be a decent alternative to maintaining an RV you only use once or twice a year.

You still maintain the mobility of an RV, but the operating costs of something like a mini-van to get you to where you're going are significantly less.

The Money Monk

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #15 on: February 27, 2014, 01:31:41 PM »
here's some numbers to consider:

Assuming starting from zero an 18% savings rate will take you 39 years to retire.

A 40% savings rate will take about 21 years to retire.

you can use this calculator to figure out your exact personal numbers: http://networthify.com/calculator/earlyretirement?income=500000&initialBalance=0&expenses=300000&annualPct=5&withdrawalRate=4

As long as you make the decision consciously with full knowledge of how it is going to affect you, then there's nothing wrong with doing it either way. It's just a personal choice based on what you value. Just make sure you know what each decision is actually costing you.

b4u2

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #16 on: February 27, 2014, 01:35:27 PM »
I have a suburban and toy hauler. The only thing I wish I would have done different was gone cheaper. I bought suburban used (2005) but I could have gotten a much cheaper one. I bought the toy hauler brand new (2012) when I should have looked for an older model. Don't get me wrong, I like my toys but wish I had started cheaper and maybe worked my way up. I'm not going to give these up but I am working on paying them off very quickly.

Thegoblinchief

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2014, 01:53:57 PM »
Plan to start learning to camp this summer. Previously we've always done vacations to visit family but we'd like to start branching out and doing small "just us and kids" trips, locally in WI at first, bigger in future years.

I think the balance I'm hoping we'll strike is camp most of the time, but every few days get a (cheap) hotel room.

Honestly, though, the biggest cost of vacations is FOOD.

crumbcatcher

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #18 on: February 27, 2014, 04:55:20 PM »
Even if you keep the big truck for the RV adventures, you don't have to drive it all the time. Based on what you're paying for gas every month, if you need to do a lot of regular driving I'd get a wee little used thing with excellent gas mileage so I didn't need to drive around a big truck whose main purpose is to pull an RV. It sounds like you have a family vehicle too, but for driving around without the kids this might help you save some $.

prodarwin

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2014, 05:08:36 PM »
$48k (34k truck + 14k RV) invested at 5% will generate $2400/year  + gas costs over a good mpg car (daily usage of truck), gas costs of traveling with RV over a car, insurance, maintenance, and depreciation must add up to a ton.

How much family vacation can you get for $4000-5000?  Quite a bit.  I've posed this question to my parents before - their truck/RV combos have cost them a TON of money.  Fun, for sure, but renting a beach condo/vacation home/even staying in a hotel often works out to being more cost effective.  As a bonus, its way less hassle.

Fastfwd

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #20 on: February 27, 2014, 05:31:55 PM »
Well that gives me a lot more to think about.
Right now I'm thinking to stay the course as an experiment. Keep the truck, get the RV and see how we like it this summer. My wife gets the whole summer off so we expect to use it a lot. Our greatest vacations always had an element of road trip in them.
If it's not as great as we expect I will have lost maybe 2000-4000$ on resale an depreciation; not worse than it would cost to rent one for a whole summer.

The truck will definitely have to go when the RV does. I only take it to drive to school and the train station but the MPG is terrible. Too bad; I love driving it.

Left

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #21 on: February 27, 2014, 06:08:29 PM »
why not rent an RV when you need it? RV so you can drive it? Unless you use it for something else other than towing the RV trailer

Nords

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #22 on: February 27, 2014, 06:37:19 PM »
I can probably save 40% net this year. Maybe even 50% if everything goes well. Without a travel budget I could probably save 60%+. Not sure it' worth it.
This is how you find the line between frugality and deprivation.  You're willing to work more hours/years for it, so it must be acceptable to you.

newideas2013

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2014, 07:03:58 PM »
A $34,000 truck is crazy to me

Fastfwd

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2014, 04:35:14 AM »
A $34,000 truck is crazy to me

It is to me too but you know how it is:
You start with bare needs and you have a good shape older 20k truck.
Then you figure out that you can get a newer one for 25k.
Hell go to 30k and it's almost new. Does not matter much if you keep it a long time right? The worse of depreciation is in the first 3-4 years.
Another little 4k and you get the luxury stuff. heated/cooled seats, backup camera

Some people have gambling or drug problems. I like cars and sugar.

Also I bought this while I was on my crazy post-mortgage spending high. Before I calmed down and made plans for the future, FI, MMM, etc.

odput

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2014, 06:22:39 AM »
It is to me too but you know how it is:
/snip

That's not really how it is around here...

Russ

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2014, 06:24:14 AM »
A $34,000 truck is crazy to me

It is to me too but you know how it is:
You start with bare needs and you have a good shape older 20k truck.
Then you figure out that you can get a newer one for 25k.
Hell go to 30k and it's almost new. Does not matter much if you keep it a long time right? The worse of depreciation is in the first 3-4 years.
Another little 4k and you get the luxury stuff. heated/cooled seats, backup camera

Some people have gambling or drug problems. I like cars and sugar.

Also I bought this while I was on my crazy post-mortgage spending high. Before I calmed down and made plans for the future, FI, MMM, etc.

that doesn't mean you have to keep it

Fastfwd

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2014, 06:33:37 AM »
that doesn't mean you have to keep it

I know. That was the idea behind my post. I wanted to hear comments from the MM people to get a balance against comments from family and friends.

If I had to do it again from scratch I would probably get a cheaper truck but do it anyway. Now I could exchange that truck for a cheaper one and get maybe 14k back. But then I'd have an older less reliable truck without 2 sets of tires. Let's say I keep the truck 4 years the depreciation difference between both truck would probably be in the ballpark of the cost of tires. But part of it is that I really like the truck as it is; I found it used but it would be exactly the same if I had ordered it new and chose every option I wanted.

Now for the MMM side of things. I will get an older RV. Plan to keep it for 4 years so buy a 2008 and sell it when it's 10 years old. By then kids will want to spend summer with friends and we'll go back to shorter vacations. I'll sell the truck to get a cheap but reliable good MPG car.

MrFancypants

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2014, 06:54:12 AM »
Tell me if I read wrong, but you've paid off your house completely?

That changes your equation a little.  That expensive truck is easier to justify if you're happy with your place in life and aren't necessarily trying to free yourself from your job.  That truck could also be easy to justify if you have not only paid off your house, but have saved up enough money to sustain yourself indefinitely and have some cash on the side for toys, like your truck.

When I reach my financial independence and retire early I'm probably going to continue to maintain some kind of employment for no reason other than to fund my auto hobby.  Thankfully my tastes are fairly cheap and I can keep entertained with a 20 year old Miata, but should I choose to dabble in road racing I'll have to come up with a few more dollar bills.

As was pointed out regarding the line between frugality and deprivation....  if you're willing to put in time to work for something, then clearly it's something you value.  Don't feel like you need to seek acceptance from random people on the internet when it comes to purchases like these, especially if you're saving 40%-50% of your income and your house is paid off.  On those two things alone I'd suggest that you're more successful than most here, and the icing on the cake is the truck you get to enjoy.

The point is not frugality for frugality sake.  The point is frugality to allow you to focus on the things you enjoy in life.

Fastfwd

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2014, 07:06:59 AM »
Tell me if I read wrong, but you've paid off your house completely?
...
As was pointed out regarding the line between frugality and deprivation....  if you're willing to put in time to work for something, then clearly it's something you value.  Don't feel like you need to seek acceptance from random people on the internet when it comes to purchases like these, especially if you're saving 40%-50% of your income and your house is paid off.  On those two things alone I'd suggest that you're more successful than most here, and the icing on the cake is the truck you get to enjoy.

The point is not frugality for frugality sake.  The point is frugality to allow you to focus on the things you enjoy in life.

Thanks.

Yes the mortgage was paid over 1 year ago but then I started using the extra money to buy things instead of saving more. My employer closing the local office was a wakeup call as I was not willing to relocate the family and not yet able to live on just investments. With about 33% savings firecalc tells me I could be FI at 50(12 years). I expect to have some periods of unemployment between now and then either to spend a whole summer on a road vacation with the family or just because I am between jobs.

I'm not MMM and don't want to do what needs to be done to live on 25k/year. I'm aiming for 50k before tax from me + wife's pension. I think I can do close to 50% savings and that is enough for now. Maybe my opinion will change later.

lexie2000

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #30 on: February 28, 2014, 07:16:57 AM »
Not meaning to hijack the thread, but shortly after retirement DH started looking at RVs - first a pop-up, then a Class C, then a small travel trailer.  We have rented a pop-up a couple of times in the past and DH was leaning toward that.   Getting the pop-up or travel trailer would mean getting a larger car to tow.  The purpose is for camping/fishing excursions.  I am SOOOOOO THANKFUL that he talked to the old guys across the street and next door.  They both HAD pop-ups and now neither do.  They told DH that they were a hassle and tent camping was easy and allowed them to camp closer to many of the areas where they liked to fish.  They're a lot older than DH and the information totally turned him around. 

Next month, DBIL, who has some pretty good tent camping equipment, is coming out for a visit and a fishing trip is planned with his camping gear so that DH can test drive tent camping as opposed to using a pop-up or travel trailer on fishing excursions.  I am REALLY hoping that it works out.   If it does, it means:

1)  We can keep driving our 14 yr. old car and, when we do replace, will not have to buy a model with a beefier engine for towing (and worse gas mileage).
2)  We will not have to spend money on the purchase of an RV that I neither care to store (extra $$$) or maintain (extra work AND $$$) or figure out how to get rid of.

I like the idea of tent equipment - we won't have to pay to store it, and it will be soooo much cheaper relative to the other options that when it's eventually time to get rid of it, even if we have to give it away, we'll be A LOT further ahead.

MrsPete

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #31 on: February 28, 2014, 07:52:00 AM »
Not meaning to hijack the thread, but shortly after retirement DH started looking at RVs - first a pop-up, then a Class C, then a small travel trailer.  We have rented a pop-up a couple of times in the past and DH was leaning toward that.   Getting the pop-up or travel trailer would mean getting a larger car to tow.  The purpose is for camping/fishing excursions.  I am SOOOOOO THANKFUL that he talked to the old guys across the street and next door.  They both HAD pop-ups and now neither do.  They told DH that they were a hassle and tent camping was easy and allowed them to camp closer to many of the areas where they liked to fish.  They're a lot older than DH and the information totally turned him around. 

Next month, DBIL, who has some pretty good tent camping equipment, is coming out for a visit and a fishing trip is planned with his camping gear so that DH can test drive tent camping as opposed to using a pop-up or travel trailer on fishing excursions.  I am REALLY hoping that it works out.   If it does, it means:

1)  We can keep driving our 14 yr. old car and, when we do replace, will not have to buy a model with a beefier engine for towing (and worse gas mileage).
2)  We will not have to spend money on the purchase of an RV that I neither care to store (extra $$$) or maintain (extra work AND $$$) or figure out how to get rid of.

I like the idea of tent equipment - we won't have to pay to store it, and it will be soooo much cheaper relative to the other options that when it's eventually time to get rid of it, even if we have to give it away, we'll be A LOT further ahead.
You might be a good candidate for a teardrop.  They're small enough to haul behind a small car, the set-up once you reach the campsite is minimal, and the cost for a used one can be as low as 2-3K.  It's not nearly the investment of an RV. 

Fastfwd

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Re: Failing at MM because I love my cars too much
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2014, 08:06:16 AM »
...
I am SOOOOOO THANKFUL that he talked to the old guys across the street and next door.  They both HAD pop-ups and now neither do.  They told DH that they were a hassle and tent camping was easy and allowed them to camp closer to many of the areas where they liked to fish.

I agree that you should do you research before spending the money. When we rented the class A motorhome we talked to other families most of them with pop-ups. They ALL wanted a travel trailer because of the hassle of emptying the toilet cartridge and the lack of a shower but it was a much more cost effective way to camp. Much better MPG, cheaper to buy and cheaper car to tow.

Our needs are trips up to 2 months long with kids. It would have to be either tent on good weather and motel on bad weather or the RV. The class A is too expensive and we need a detachable car once we get there(attractions, groceries).

I guess only the trying it for myself will show me the price and happiness difference between the RV and tent/motel vacations. I may even do both since one of my projects is to walk the Appalachian trail and meet with the family every few days; on some multi-day walks I would have to bring my tent.