Author Topic: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)  (Read 24428 times)

Prairie Stash

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #50 on: February 10, 2017, 02:24:06 PM »
interesting, the household income is $50,000 on one income. The poster wants to save $50/year, which is always commendable. However I think there's probably bigger expenses that should be examined before trying to convince the working partner to change their grocery store purchases. Perhaps its a case of poor examples, but I think the OP needs to examine the entire budget and not get fixated on the tiny details when large details are being ignored.

However to answer your question. If you want someone to change you have to lead by example and wait, you currently don't, if you did then you would be buying the sauce instead of posting about it. If the change never happens you keep waiting indefinitely or you move on to a another person if its a deal breaker. You don't get to control someone, you don't get to manipulate, its not a dictatorship. You get off the high horse and realize if you keep this up she'll get rid of you when the kids are gone and you are no longer serving a purpose except getting on her nerves. Sorry to sound mean, that's what happens if you try to force a conversion to frugality. 

I buy Hunts sauce for $0.99 CAD a can. Its what I ate growing up and to this day its my favourite. The best sauce is usually the one you had as a kid. I usually end up buying it, otherwise my partner might buy something I don't like...we both know it and accept that the person shopping gets to choose. I also make the bed since I dislike her method, wash the car, again 'cause she's doing it wrong (perhaps on purpose...), while she does plenty of things to prevent me from screwing them up too.

Malum Prohibitum

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #51 on: February 10, 2017, 03:03:42 PM »
After bills and retirement accounts are paid, my husband and I each get an equal weekly allowance (food, gas, entertainment) and an equal monthly deposit into our individual savings accounts. My husband spends 100% of his. I spend maybe 20% of mine. The fact that our accounts are separate and the necessary payments are already made means our spending habits can continue being wildly different without annoying the other.

Mezzie, I think we married the same guy.  :-)  And not surprisingly, we follow a similar "allowance" system, so I can be confident we are saving enough, and he can buy the guys lunch at work and all that stuff.  My ways would have had us FIRE'd already -- but then I'd also be FIRE'd alone, because DH was just flat-out not willing to come all the way over to the dark side, and trying to force him to give up the spendy stuff he loves would have made him miserable, turned me into "mom" instead of "wife," and ended the marriage.  The money isn't worth it if it costs you the people you love.
  Laura33, best post of the thread.  :)

galliver

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #52 on: February 10, 2017, 03:21:31 PM »
I recommend Soma for bras. Throw out all the old stuff that doesn't fit or feels bad and get a few choice ones from Soma. Yes they are expensive but you get quality vs quantity. Have your wife go in for a fitting.

<3 Soma. You can get them on sale for $20-30 if you time it right.

moof

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #53 on: February 10, 2017, 03:33:40 PM »
After bills and retirement accounts are paid, my husband and I each get an equal weekly allowance (food, gas, entertainment) and an equal monthly deposit into our individual savings accounts. My husband spends 100% of his. I spend maybe 20% of mine. The fact that our accounts are separate and the necessary payments are already made means our spending habits can continue being wildly different without annoying the other.

Mezzie, I think we married the same guy.  :-)  And not surprisingly, we follow a similar "allowance" system, so I can be confident we are saving enough, and he can buy the guys lunch at work and all that stuff.  My ways would have had us FIRE'd already -- but then I'd also be FIRE'd alone, because DH was just flat-out not willing to come all the way over to the dark side, and trying to force him to give up the spendy stuff he loves would have made him miserable, turned me into "mom" instead of "wife," and ended the marriage.  The money isn't worth it if it costs you the people you love.
  Laura33, best post of the thread.  :)
We similarly have his/hers/ours accounts, and have done so since the beginning of our marriage.  My wife actually gets about 30% more than I do every 2 weeks.  Mine was piling up and rather than transferring it back now and then I just lowered my allowance.  Bigger items come out of joint only after mutual agreement.  We've never fought over money in 11 years.

I guess I am surprised that the OP is just getting around to addressing how to reconcile money in a marriage.  Solving that should really be done before vows are exchanged if at all possible.

It sucks to feel like someone is constantly looking over your shoulder every time you buy something.  Second, divorce is a REALLY expensive option.  The allowance method has avoided both for us.  I also try to respect my wife, so if she lobbies for a particular brand of a household staple I almost always just agree and move on.  Far more important than the stupid price of pasta sauce is overall meal planning and participation in creating it.

Personally I could eat the same thing 4-5 days in a row and could save us a lot of time and money doing bigger batch cooking.  My wife maxes out at about 2x per week for the same dish, which she voiced after a few rounds of me trying to do things like make a big pot of stew for the next 4 nights.  I stopped trying to change her to match my proclivities and instead spread leftovers into my lunches and don't even bother trying to slip 3 day meals into the rotation.  I respect my wife, and if it is important to her I make it important for me as a matter of basic respect.

If the shoe was on the other foot my wife could easily argue against my ~$300/year beer habit, my excessive consumption of ice cream, or so many other things.  For most of us males we are probably in much bigger glass houses than we realize.

Cassie

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #54 on: February 10, 2017, 04:16:59 PM »
If you can't afford bras and sauce then you need to go back to work. Treating some one like a child will not secure a lasting marriage.  Getting the rabbit may have been payback for quitting without talking about it with her. I would be pissed. You  haven't answered the questions about how much does your stash bring in versus her income?

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #55 on: February 10, 2017, 04:18:40 PM »
If you can't afford bras and sauce then you need to go back to work. Treating some one like a child will not secure a lasting marriage.  Getting the rabbit may have been payback for quitting without talking about it with her. I would be pissed. You  haven't answered the questions about how much does your stash bring in versus her income?

Oh, I don't think we'll be hearing from OP anytime soon.  I'm hopeful he's gone into seclusion and his hopefully taking some of this to heart...

Pigeon

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #56 on: February 10, 2017, 07:13:22 PM »
I'm just trying to imagine my reaction to my husband mansplaining bra shopping to me.  Let's just say it wouldn't go well.

calimom

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #57 on: February 10, 2017, 10:40:01 PM »
I'm kind of confused about the money situation. You quit your job, and then decided that you had enough stash to retire. But you also say your household income is 50K.  What are household expenses, and how much is coming from gains on your stash vs. your wife's income?

It seems to me that your wife might be on another board asking how she can get her husband to go back to work because she feels like she's shouldering it all and can't buy a bra without being criticized now.

Maybe ask her what a comfortable level of budgeting would be for her, then determine if it's practical for you to do something part time to support that.  Right now you're asking her to make all the changes to allow you to stay at home; I'd recommend a more equitable compromise.

Pretty much this. And having had several rabbits as family pets, how much are yours fucking costing? Because ours eat some pellets and leftover lettuce and are very cute. The hutch was a long ago gift. Are you driving yours around in a leased Mercedes to special rabbit shows or something? Or are you just being a dick over this?

steviesterno

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #58 on: February 11, 2017, 05:04:06 AM »
we do an allowance as well, after everything else is paid out. it's our discretionary money where we don't have to ask for permission or anything. Sometimes I save mine a while, sometimes burn it up with snacks. i happens.

COEE

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #59 on: February 11, 2017, 06:49:05 AM »
My husband's spending style reminds me to enjoy the moment; mine reminds him it's important to plan for the future. We really balance each other out quite well.

This is beautiful Mezzie.  I really like where your attitude is.  You have good balance in your family dynamic, I suspect.

horsepoor

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #60 on: February 11, 2017, 07:21:56 AM »
I'm just trying to imagine my reaction to my husband mansplaining bra shopping to me.  Let's just say it wouldn't go well.

Haha, I was thinking that too!  I would laugh my ass off of my husband tried any of that.

golfreak12

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2017, 07:39:04 AM »
Lets say I'm retired and our stash is mostly money from myself. If my wife is still working, I still don't think I can say anything to her about her spending without offending her(especially trivial stuff like pasta sauce). Just saying.

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #62 on: February 15, 2017, 06:14:18 PM »
I had my wife start reading MMM.  She quickly started cutting spending so quickly I had to say, "Whoa!  Hold up a minute!  That brings us joy and happiness and health . . ."

She converted quickly.  More so than stubborn me.

Very good suggestion.  Thanks.

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #63 on: February 15, 2017, 06:28:44 PM »

But, I am looking for strategies from people who also weren't able to convince their SO to spend wisely.  Beyond discussions.

"Beyond discussions..."  What on earth are you referring to?

Beyond having further discussions to convince my wife.  I've tried that.  Most of what I've seen on this forum RE getting a SO on board is about candid discussions.  So, what if that doesn't work?

Well, then, you're fucked.

No, seriously.  There is no universe in which candid discussions fail, but some secret magic trick miraculously brings your wife around and you walk off into the frugal sunset hand in hand.

+a million.  You are married to an adult human who gets to make her own decisions, even if you would have made different ones.  You have no legal, moral, or physical power to wield over her to force her to bend to your will other than verbal requests. 

Furthermore, your examples seem pretty small potatoes to me (other than perhaps bras, but ... dude.  That's a pretty damn personal decision).  I would be seriously peeved if my partner tried to micromanage my spending decisions to this degree (ESPECIALLY if I had a job and he didn't; that would turn into expletives pretty fast).  I can taste the difference between different kinds of pasta sauce, and can make a decision about whether the better taste is worth an extra dollar to me or not (what happens in someone else's taste buds is not relevant).  That is not the level of decision one should have to run by their spouse in an equal relationship.

(As an aside, if things like rabbit feed or $3/jar pasta sauce are the difference between "fine" financially and being "really thrown off," then you are NOT fine financially).

This is the very best "extreme" measure I can think of - take over all of the grocery shopping yourself so you can buy the brand of pasta sauce you prefer.  Not worth the $50 in potential annual savings?  Then also not worth harping over.

The $3 per jar of sauce is an single example.  I could probably list about 100 others.  They add up.  And, it's not just rabbit feed for example.  There is hay, bedding, feed, cleaning materials, blah, blah, blah.

I've been away from the forum, so I have to read other responses, but I'm looking for ways to get her to think more before purchases.  As I mentioned, I think a big part of the problem is that she knows we have savings to cover 'overages'.  But, those savings aren't meant to be spent down at a fast rate.

Nearly 95% of the savings we have is from my efforts while working.  Now that I am not, I don't want to see what I've built up disappear. 

At some point, it comes down to either the spending slows down or I go back to work to support expenses that I don't agree with.  I don't want to work to support frivolous expenses.  $5 here, $10 there on a frequent basis becomes thousands annually.

I think on her own, she would easily be able to stay within budget.....it's viewing our savings as a backstop that keeps her from having to do so (me thinks).

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2017, 06:33:13 PM »
If she is working and you are not, its going to be difficult to tell her she needs to wear uncomfortable bras and eat bad tasting pasta sauce just to make sure you do not have to go back to work.

Just saying, look at it from her perspective.

This made me laugh.  It's the quantity of bras, not the quality.  We are probably one of UPS's best customers with a package arriving multiple times a week.

I can flip it around and ask "what about when i was working and she was not?"  In retrospect, I should have been frugal from the outset even though I earned enough to not be....and still save.

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #65 on: February 15, 2017, 06:41:57 PM »
I think you are making a huge deal out of small things.
How much does a rabbit cost you monthly? Pet sitting can add up but considering your wife still works, how often will you be going away for long periods anyway??
Pasta sauce, well, everyone has different taste buds. They may taste the same to you, but obviously not to her. Instead of turning sauce into a war, why don't you buy the kind you want and see if she likes it? If not, it is not a cost worth fighting for.
Bras... well yes they can get expensive but you are not a woman, you do not need a bra so you have no idea. Maybe try to come up with a compromise of x dollars per month on bras.

Really, if these are your biggest issues then I think you can relax. Besides by your admission, you quit without a thought. I would think quitting a job without a thought is much bigger issue than a rabbit, pasta sauce or bras.
And she is still working...

We discussed my quitting.  She was on board.  But, probably expected me to find a new role within a short time frame.

The problem is that with zero debt and no mortgage, and $50k in post-tax income that I am still sliding more over from savings than I think is appropriate.

As an example, my own parents differed greatly on what expenses were reasonable.  My mom was the spendthrift while my dad worked.  After the kids flew the coop, she started working and he down shifted to a much lower paying job.  Now, in early 70s, they have separate accounts since they still disagree on spending.  My mom likes to eat out much more than my dad.  He likes it, but not enough to pay for it.  So, they agreed that she would pay for restaurants out of her accounts.  He pays for housing and utilities....etc.  They found a way to split things so they didn't argue over it.  50th anniversary in November, so people don't always come around to the same way of thinking.

We can live off $50k.  I'm trying to find ways to sort of auto-pilot staying within that limit.

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2017, 07:23:48 PM »
I recommend Soma for bras. Throw out all the old stuff that doesn't fit or feels bad and get a few choice ones from Soma. Yes they are expensive but you get quality vs quantity. Have your wife go in for a fitting.

I bought her Soma jammies for her b-day.  She is aware of Soma, but perhaps hasn't considered going into the store for a fitting.  Yep, one area where quality over quantity is an easy choice.  Thanks.

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2017, 07:26:35 PM »
You could recategorize "bras" as an "entertainment" expense and just enjoy your evenings that much more.

Very good.  It's perspective, right.  Good comment.

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #68 on: February 15, 2017, 07:40:32 PM »
The successful financial conversion stories I am aware of follow one of two paths:

1. Frugal spouse shows spendy spouse MMM site or other resources coupled with a discussion of how great it would be to reach family goals (SAHP, freedom from work, family time together) through frugality. Spendy spouse is inspired and gets right on board.

You've already tried this and it hasn't worked (possibly because according to your story, leaving work was about increasing your personal happiness rather than meeting some goal you and your wife had already articulated.)

2. Frugal spouse, either after trying method one, or knowing spendy spouse well enough to realize method one isn't going to work in the first place, starts living the frugal life without making a big deal of it. Changes are made in places Spendy Spouse won't notice or care (car insurance, for instance), or to Frugal Spouse's personal life (biking to work, taking on chores so they won't be outsourced, etc.) Sometimes Spendy Spouse never does notice or care, but the family is still ahead of where it was before. In many cases, Spendy Spouse realizes through experiencing the frugal life that it's not as bad as they thought, and gets more enthusiastic.

So that's all you've got left. Method 2. I have never seen a case here where a Mustachian converted their spouse either through nagging or endless argument, but I HAVE heard several posters report that their marriages broke up over constant disagreement about money. Do with that what you will.

Thanks for the input.  I'm relatively frugal, but I can do more.  One area which gives me hope that leading by example (more so) would work is in the area of home cleaning.  If I am cleaning when she comes home, she'll usually jump in without being asked.  We did have a cleaning lady for the last 8 years that I was working.  A few months after I quit, I told her I'd rather do it myself and keep the $2600/year.

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #69 on: February 15, 2017, 07:46:29 PM »
....
One last note, I find that people who make posts like these "Look at my spouse's ridiculous spending!" never say anything about what *they* spend money on (because it's definitely not ridiculous, right?). What have you bought in the last 6 months?

Right. OP, do you buy the very cheapest version of all products 100% the time, or do you sometimes have brand preferences that lead you to pay a little extra? Maybe you can't tell the difference between pasta sauces, but I'm willing to bet there are plenty of products where you think the very cheapest store brand tastes bad or doesn't work as well. I can't tell the difference between Coke and store-brand cola, but I can sure as hell tell the difference between good quality orange juice and the off-brand, so I either pay $4-5 for a carton of OJ or go without. It would be silly of me to insist my partner drink off-brand diet coke just because I personally can't taste the difference, while imposing my own preferences.

Sorry, bridget.  No expensive hobbies and I almost always am fine with generic over brand, etc.  I have built up enough of a wardrobe over the years that clothing is about $100/year.  Not the cheapest all the time, but as others have pointed out, Classico ain't the cheapest.  Only place I let loose is occasional restaurant meals, but then it is either both of us or the entire family. 

To first post above - I truly cannot think of a single thing in the past 6 months that was a personal spend other than a trip to visit my parents.  Perhaps some books rather than the library.

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #70 on: February 15, 2017, 07:51:37 PM »
I've had discussions, but it's just not sinking in.  I'll provide some background below, but my question is:

Has anyone resorted to (what might be considered) extreme measures to curtail your SO's spending?

Some basic recent examples that I didn't agree with:

 - bought a rabbit.  Cost and hassle are more than dealing with our dog.  I think she realizes this now, but it's a little late.

 - pasta sauce.  We were out.  I asked what kind she usually buys.  Says Monte Bene.  I see it is $4.48/jar.  I point that out.  She says she only buys it when it's on sale.  I asked what the sale price is....answer $3.48....."it tastes better".  I bought Classico for $2.12 and think it tastes fine.  Over a year, since we eat pasta weekly, that could run to about $50-60 annually.  Not much, but geez, I'd never notice the taste diff.  I want to keep my $50-60.

 - clothes....has a full closet, but still buys more.  I know I won't get too much sympathy from the ladies for this one, but she buys bras like they are going out of style.  I needed a new one.  That one didn't fit.....etc. etc.  Bras ain't cheap, so it adds up.  Looking forward to the responses to this part ; )

Did you ask about why she wanted the rabbit and what need it is fulfilling? Does she like the dog?

How often are you making dinner for her? How often is this a special dinner? If special food is important to her how is this need being met?

How often do you tell her that she looks great? Does she feel good about her body? Has she had a proper bra fitting? Is it definitely fit or could it be style? How often do you tell her how great she looks in said bras?

Try to find out what need she is trying to meet; money is one way to meet her needs, there may be another.

I tell her she looks great pretty much every day.  Thanks for other suggestions.  She does fall into that group of people that get a thrill from shopping for shopping's sake.  Her mother, too.  My mom formerly.  Her mom's idea of fun/entertainment when she visits is to go shopping.  No discussion of whether anything is needed. 
And, it's not just window shopping.  I'm no psychologist, but replacing the need she is fulfilling by spending with something else would be great.  I'll have to get creative.

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #71 on: February 15, 2017, 07:55:20 PM »
What did it for us was a discussion of debt. My DW saw that I was crushing my student loans faster than she (with her father's help) was. I pointed out to her the grim reality that if they kept up with the normal payment plan, her father would be almost 80 by the time that ended.

I also showed her my budget sheet and created for her a simpler version that she could access on her phone (the blessed GoogleDrive, everyone). We review our budgets together every week. It has become something of a ritual for us.

It was super important to me that I feel like I was NOT forcing her to do this. I just had a conversation with her and gave her some tools to track her spending. I made it clear to her that as long as she paid her (income adjusted) portion of the rent, her money was her own; I was just suggesting ways to optimize it.

This is the sort of suggestions I was seeking.  We've always had blended accounts and certainly never individual budgets. 


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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #72 on: February 15, 2017, 07:57:48 PM »
My suggestion would be try not to make it about money. Strange suggestion, I know, but hear me out.



What has helped my stress level and my spouse's understand is making it a conversation about our lives together - about what we value, our financial goals and how we want to spend our time (not me at the office for another 40 years). I hope this is helpful and I wish you the best of luck convincing her.

Edited: Typos

Thanks.  Good stuff.

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #73 on: February 15, 2017, 08:10:46 PM »
After bills and retirement accounts are paid, my husband and I each get an equal weekly allowance (food, gas, entertainment) and an equal monthly deposit into our individual savings accounts. My husband spends 100% of his. I spend maybe 20% of mine. The fact that our accounts are separate and the necessary payments are already made means our spending habits can continue being wildly different without annoying the other.

Mezzie, I think we married the same guy.  :-)  And not surprisingly, we follow a similar "allowance" system, so I can be confident we are saving enough, and he can buy the guys lunch at work and all that stuff.  My ways would have had us FIRE'd already -- but then I'd also be FIRE'd alone, because DH was just flat-out not willing to come all the way over to the dark side, and trying to force him to give up the spendy stuff he loves would have made him miserable, turned me into "mom" instead of "wife," and ended the marriage.  The money isn't worth it if it costs you the people you love.
  Laura33, best post of the thread.  :)

Did you always have separate accounts?  We've always had our blended.  To me, converting to separate is an example of 'extreme measure'...... I did what many do and used a more interesting title to get more readership.  So, not really extreme to many.  I think that conversation might be hard, but worth having.  Thinking how to suggest and arrange. 

People often have the viewpoint that a couple's savings are 50-50 or that their income is 50-50.  i.e. it is not my savings, it is our savings.  It is not my income but our income.  But, I do feel that I have more say in how our savings are used given that I generated 95% of it. 

I like to make a comparison to those that point out that it's hard to make a case when I am the non-working spouse.

Case 1 - I earn X over a full career from the time I'm in my early 20s to early 60s.

Case 2 - I earn the same X over early 20s to early 40s and then very little.

Total earnings are the same (inflation adjusted, etc. etc.).  Why should I have less say in how things are done in Case 2?  I earned a lot and saved a lot in a shorter time period. 

Laura33

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #74 on: February 15, 2017, 08:17:50 PM »
I think you are making a huge deal out of small things.
How much does a rabbit cost you monthly? Pet sitting can add up but considering your wife still works, how often will you be going away for long periods anyway??
Pasta sauce, well, everyone has different taste buds. They may taste the same to you, but obviously not to her. Instead of turning sauce into a war, why don't you buy the kind you want and see if she likes it? If not, it is not a cost worth fighting for.
Bras... well yes they can get expensive but you are not a woman, you do not need a bra so you have no idea. Maybe try to come up with a compromise of x dollars per month on bras.

Really, if these are your biggest issues then I think you can relax. Besides by your admission, you quit without a thought. I would think quitting a job without a thought is much bigger issue than a rabbit, pasta sauce or bras.
And she is still working...

We discussed my quitting.  She was on board.  But, probably expected me to find a new role within a short time frame.

The problem is that with zero debt and no mortgage, and $50k in post-tax income that I am still sliding more over from savings than I think is appropriate.

As an example, my own parents differed greatly on what expenses were reasonable.  My mom was the spendthrift while my dad worked.  After the kids flew the coop, she started working and he down shifted to a much lower paying job.  Now, in early 70s, they have separate accounts since they still disagree on spending.  My mom likes to eat out much more than my dad.  He likes it, but not enough to pay for it.  So, they agreed that she would pay for restaurants out of her accounts.  He pays for housing and utilities....etc.  They found a way to split things so they didn't argue over it.  50th anniversary in November, so people don't always come around to the same way of thinking.

We can live off $50k.  I'm trying to find ways to sort of auto-pilot staying within that limit.

I think you continue to miss the forest for the trees.  The question is not whether your wife can live within $50K -- it's whether she wants to. 

She agreed to your quitting based on the apparent understanding that you would get a new job.  You have now changed that deal.  Her spending suggests that she is not happy with the new deal that you have unilaterally imposed on her. 

If you'd like to stay married, you seriously need to involve her in the decisionmaking process.  You know, like your parents did.  Your dad didn't unilaterally decide what the budget should be and expect your mom to toe the line -- they talked about it and found a compromise.   

When you are married, a fundamental part of the deal is that you don't get to make unilateral decisions on issues that are important to both of you.

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #75 on: February 15, 2017, 08:26:20 PM »

I guess I am surprised that the OP is just getting around to addressing how to reconcile money in a marriage.  Solving that should really be done before vows are exchanged if at all possible.


She was very frugal when we dated.  I earned way more than we needed, so not an issue.  We've been married 20 years now and I think pre-marriage finance discussions were less likely back then and particularly when each was doing fine individually.

To all responders - Thanks for all the good suggestions.

What I have learned in this post is to be very careful with what examples I use.  The pasta is a single example of an overall tendency to overspend.  Multiply that by all the sorts of products a family uses and it adds up.  So, I was not complaining about an extra $50 annually for pasta sauce, but that is what more than half the responses focused on.

I was seeking suggestions on how to arrange finances (who does what, what sort of account set-ups work best, etc.) to highlight where there is waste.  I think she'd agree with me on most, but she doesn't see it right now.

I just paid off the house (from savings I built up) to clarify the picture somewhat for her - i.e. we know our income and we have no debt, our fixed costs are ______, and say "I think we can avoid pulling from savings".

Laura33

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #76 on: February 15, 2017, 08:27:33 PM »
After bills and retirement accounts are paid, my husband and I each get an equal weekly allowance (food, gas, entertainment) and an equal monthly deposit into our individual savings accounts. My husband spends 100% of his. I spend maybe 20% of mine. The fact that our accounts are separate and the necessary payments are already made means our spending habits can continue being wildly different without annoying the other.

Mezzie, I think we married the same guy.  :-)  And not surprisingly, we follow a similar "allowance" system, so I can be confident we are saving enough, and he can buy the guys lunch at work and all that stuff.  My ways would have had us FIRE'd already -- but then I'd also be FIRE'd alone, because DH was just flat-out not willing to come all the way over to the dark side, and trying to force him to give up the spendy stuff he loves would have made him miserable, turned me into "mom" instead of "wife," and ended the marriage.  The money isn't worth it if it costs you the people you love.
  Laura33, best post of the thread.  :)

Did you always have separate accounts?  We've always had our blended.  To me, converting to separate is an example of 'extreme measure'...... I did what many do and used a more interesting title to get more readership.  So, not really extreme to many.  I think that conversation might be hard, but worth having.  Thinking how to suggest and arrange. 

People often have the viewpoint that a couple's savings are 50-50 or that their income is 50-50.  i.e. it is not my savings, it is our savings.  It is not my income but our income.  But, I do feel that I have more say in how our savings are used given that I generated 95% of it. 

I like to make a comparison to those that point out that it's hard to make a case when I am the non-working spouse.

Case 1 - I earn X over a full career from the time I'm in my early 20s to early 60s.

Case 2 - I earn the same X over early 20s to early 40s and then very little.

Total earnings are the same (inflation adjusted, etc. etc.).  Why should I have less say in how things are done in Case 2?  I earned a lot and saved a lot in a shorter time period.

We do not have entirely separate accounts.  We pay almost everything jointly.  We each just get $200/mo for whatever the heck we want, so he can buy stupid stuff and I can save mine.

Btw, your fundamental problem is the bolded part above.  You guys chose to have joint finances, which by definition means each partner gets equal say in how it is saved or spent.  Yet you personally feel entitled to do whatever you want with that savings now, because you earned more of it.  It's another bait and switch -- the deal was joint finances, but now that you have decided you're done, you want to treat it as your separate money based on your larger contribution over X years.  You are changing the rules of the game on your spouse after the game has been played, and you're doing it in your own favor. 

This does not tend to play well with spouses.

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #77 on: February 15, 2017, 08:41:00 PM »
I agree with the above. We've had this system in place since about six months before we got married (so a little over ten years). My husband and I both work hard but are not compensated equally. I make somewhere between two and three times what he does, but we get the exact same allowance/personal savings because we're a team. The rest goes to bills and savings and investments. I would NEVER say I have more say in how we spend our money just because I make more. I can't even imagine thinking such a thing.

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #78 on: February 15, 2017, 09:14:25 PM »
Laura333 - I disagree that it's about whether she wants to spend under 50k rather than if she can.  Suppose she were on her own, i.e. didn't have the savings built up.

She has 50k in net income.  She either spends less than that or goes into debt to spend over 50k.  She spent less than her income prior to our becoming married.  She didn't marry me for money or money potential since I ended up doing something different than what we thought (and earned a good bit more).

And, it took my parents about 40 years to "agree".  Many an argument while growing up was over $$.

There was no deal.  That's just how we did it.  It was easier from a practical standpoint to have joint accounts since there was one earner.  There was no explicit discussion that X% is mine and Y% is hers.  For the first 15+ years I paid for it all.

And, I would like to happily spend those savings over the rest of our lives together with her......just not run out.  There was no baiting (didn't marry me for $$ or $$ potential), thus no bait and switch. 

Mezzie - we never used the concept of personal/individual savings or allowances since income was high enough after significant savings that we could cover all expenses without worry.  Perhaps we should have. 

To extract out my specific situation, suppose it's not early retirement, and both of us have retired.  So there is no "I work, you don't".  All $$ is commingled (except 401ks, IRA's).  Let's say you've agreed to spend $50k per year.  However, your spouse isn't sticking to the plan.  What changes would you make that might help enforce it?  I cannot see saying "oops" you have to pay your credit card interest rather than sliding over more of savings.  Move slowly to separate accounts?

Laura33

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #79 on: February 16, 2017, 06:49:03 AM »
Laura333 - I disagree that it's about whether she wants to spend under 50k rather than if she can.  Suppose she were on her own, i.e. didn't have the savings built up.

She has 50k in net income.  She either spends less than that or goes into debt to spend over 50k.  She spent less than her income prior to our becoming married.  She didn't marry me for money or money potential since I ended up doing something different than what we thought (and earned a good bit more).

And, it took my parents about 40 years to "agree".  Many an argument while growing up was over $$.

There was no deal.  That's just how we did it.  It was easier from a practical standpoint to have joint accounts since there was one earner.  There was no explicit discussion that X% is mine and Y% is hers.  For the first 15+ years I paid for it all.

And, I would like to happily spend those savings over the rest of our lives together with her......just not run out.  There was no baiting (didn't marry me for $$ or $$ potential), thus no bait and switch. 

Mezzie - we never used the concept of personal/individual savings or allowances since income was high enough after significant savings that we could cover all expenses without worry.  Perhaps we should have. 

To extract out my specific situation, suppose it's not early retirement, and both of us have retired.  So there is no "I work, you don't".  All $$ is commingled (except 401ks, IRA's).  Let's say you've agreed to spend $50k per year.  However, your spouse isn't sticking to the plan.  What changes would you make that might help enforce it?  I cannot see saying "oops" you have to pay your credit card interest rather than sliding over more of savings.  Move slowly to separate accounts?

All of your examples are irrelevant, because that is not the situation in front of you.  If she were on her own and blowing through her salary, everyone here would be telling her to do a case study so we could all help identify cutbacks.  If you guys had *jointly* made the decision that one of you would work and one of you would stay home, and you had *jointly* agreed on a $50K budget, and one of you was failing to comply, then, yeah, I'd be all over the one who changed the terms of the deal without talking to the other [assuming they were here and asking for advice].  What you are missing is that in your case, you are the one who unilaterally changed the terms of the deal without talking to your spouse and making sure she agreed.  You decided that you were now permanently retired instead of between jobs; you decided that she would now shoulder the sole responsibility for supporting the household forever; you decided that your household budget now needs to be cut to $50K.  You didn't give her any say in any of those decisions; she is just expected to fall in line.  And now you're frustrated that she has failed to comply with a plan she never agreed to.  And you don't seem to understand that any normal human being with a backbone would be pissed as hell at being treated like that (and might even be intentionally spending more just to piss you off in return).

Perhaps, since you grew up with repeated parental arguments about money, you learned some poor communication skills -- maybe you decided that it was safer not to talk about it, maybe you adopted one parent's style that contributed to those arguments, I have no idea.  All I can say is that, boy, you seem to be doing everything you can to justify *not* talking to your wife and *not* giving her an equal say in what Team Retired does.

If you want practical advice, here ya go:  separate your finances.  Except when you say separate your finances, I'm confident you mean "I get the savings since I made the money."  Nuh-uh.  That's not the way it works.  You split your accounts consistent with the deal you and she had been complying with for the first 15+ years:  you were both equal partners in a joint enterprise, so you get half, she gets half.  You can then each contribute half to your monthly bills from either your savings or your job.  If your half of the accounts covers your share of the bills, awesome, congrats, you're retired for life, and what she does with her money is no longer your problem.

If you're not willing to do that, for the love of Pete, talk to your wife about what she wants.  You do not get to unilaterally decide when Team Retired retires, or what Team Retired's budget should be.  20 years ago, she had no right to expect you to pay for all of Team Retired's joint expenses without your agreement.  You have no right to expect her to do so now without her agreement.   

To provide context:  I am you here.  More specifically, I am the you who did *not* retire.  I have thought about it, I think we have enough to retire right now, but my DH doesn't -- he likes a spendier lifestyle and has a specific vision of retirement that involves more savings than we have now.  It's not my own personal choice, but I consider his goals and dreams to be just as important as mine -- we are one team, we each get equal say in how much we work, how much we spend, how much we save.  So we compromised and agreed on a plan, and that plan involves me continuing to work.  Not because I want to, but because I am part of a team.

That is why this situation gets under my skin.  I cannot conceive of treating my DH with the degree of disrespect you are showing your wife here.  To quit, decide that it's permanent without consulting him, and then turn around and henpeck him for continue living the lifestyle he thought we agreed to?  That would be the quickest path I can think of to killing our relationship.

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #80 on: February 16, 2017, 07:06:19 AM »
I am confused.  You keep talking about living off savings, but don't discuss any passive return from those savings.  I'm assuming they're invested?  At some point in the future, will they fully replace her 50K income?  What is the plan for dual retirement?  If your savings/investments are being drawn down currently by going a little over her $50K income, I am having a hard time understanding how it will support both of you in the future when she quits working as well.  Looking at FIRE people like Arebelspy and MMM, their stash tends to grow even when providing 100% of their income, so even if your + wife are spending say, $10K over over income annually, it concerns me that is eroding your stash, and is an indicator that it's either no invested properly, or isn't really an adequate amount for you to retire on.  If it's the latter, then maybe you and your wife can agree to live on her salary while you go back to work and add enough investments to secure future dual retirement whenever she might want to join you.

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #81 on: February 16, 2017, 07:26:53 AM »
Your examples are really tiny in the grand scheme of things......If she is the one earning money, I would not stress $50 a year on pasta sauce.

Separate part of your finances if it makes you feel better.

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #82 on: February 16, 2017, 08:46:59 AM »
I have two general observations and several "extreme" ideas:

1) When another person stands in the way of our goals, we tend to hyper-focus on that person and not notice a) the scale of the problem, or b) simple solutions to the problem that don't involve going through that person. For example, if you are driving behind someone who is going too slow, you will blame them for being 5 minutes late to your appointment, not even noticing you also spent 5 minutes on your phone before you left.

2) There are hundreds, I mean thousands, of opportunities to save (or make) money. Some will require a big fight with the SO. Others will be easy or happen unnoticed. The most efficient way to save money is to attack the easy problems first, rather than focusing on cases where the SO has dug in their heels.

With these two observations in mind, have you considered shifting your focus to examples like the following?

1) Have you shopped for insurance lately?
2) Could you become a good enough cook to avoid most restaurant meals?
3) Do your tires have the recommended air pressure?
4) Have you shopped for internet lately?
5) Are there subscriptions you could cut?
6) Could you take shorter showers?
7) Are you fully invested, or sitting on cash?
8) What could you sell on ebay or CL?
9) Is your house as insulated/efficient as it could be?
10) Can you sew clothes that get torn?
11) What can you repair instead of replace?
12) Are you over-insured?
13) Could you airBNB?
14) Could you Uber during your next regular trip?
15) Can you line-dry your clothes?

One last observation. Many impulse purchases like that rabbit don't occur because a rabbit was needed in and of itself. The rabbit was envisioned to solve some other need, like boredom perhaps. Your wife's job/life may be less exciting than either of you think, and frivilous spending is usually a symptom of underlying discontent. After the newness of the rabbit wears off, the urge to stimulate oneself with something new and flashy - or furry - will return. You could try heading this off by being the family event coordinator and ensuring you always get to do something fun every weekend.

How's the weather for a hike? What's going on at the library? Any cultural events nearby? What if we made a strange, fancy recipie? Let's go to rich people open houses and criticize everything! (OK, so that last one is my quirky idea of a good time.)

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #83 on: February 16, 2017, 10:10:27 AM »
I am confused.  You keep talking about living off savings, but don't discuss any passive return from those savings.  I'm assuming they're invested?  At some point in the future, will they fully replace her 50K income?  What is the plan for dual retirement?  If your savings/investments are being drawn down currently by going a little over her $50K income, I am having a hard time understanding how it will support both of you in the future when she quits working as well.  Looking at FIRE people like Arebelspy and MMM, their stash tends to grow even when providing 100% of their income, so even if your + wife are spending say, $10K over over income annually, it concerns me that is eroding your stash, and is an indicator that it's either no invested properly, or isn't really an adequate amount for you to retire on.  If it's the latter, then maybe you and your wife can agree to live on her salary while you go back to work and add enough investments to secure future dual retirement whenever she might want to join you.

About 73% of our savings are in 401k/IRA accounts which won't be accessible for 12 years (about 7% of that is ROTH).  We have a rental home with equity that is about 7% of total savings.  Those are the somewhat illiquid things.  We have a loan to a relative that starts paying back in 5 years that counts for 3%.  The remaining 17% is in cash (3%) and taxable stock accounts (14%).

Stash continues to grow, but a large portion is not accessible.  I am aiming to have total spending about 17k over Income = her income + interest + rental home income.  The 17k would cover our main bulky expenses (essentially prop tax plus insurance).  i.e this would be the amount drawn from savings.  But, I have found that I have to withdraw more than that.

In 12 years, two things will have happened.  1) access to retirement accounts and 2) will have sold our current home with about 2/3 of proceeds going into investments since we plan to truly retire to our rental home.  With spending 17k over Income we'd be fine and and fully replace the 50k. 

Actually, 3 things will have happened.  Kids will be in their mid-20s and expenses will be further reduced.

I'll also note that MMM and arebelspy are much better on the expense side, so they continue to add to savings, and stash isn't increasing just due to investment growth.  I'd love to spend like they do.

retired?

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #84 on: February 16, 2017, 10:34:47 AM »
I have two general observations and several "extreme" ideas:

1) When another person stands in the way of our goals, we tend to hyper-focus on that person and not notice a) the scale of the problem, or b) simple solutions to the problem that don't involve going through that person. For example, if you are driving behind someone who is going too slow, you will blame them for being 5 minutes late to your appointment, not even noticing you also spent 5 minutes on your phone before you left.

2) There are hundreds, I mean thousands, of opportunities to save (or make) money. Some will require a big fight with the SO. Others will be easy or happen unnoticed. The most efficient way to save money is to attack the easy problems first, rather than focusing on cases where the SO has dug in their heels.

With these two observations in mind, have you considered shifting your focus to examples like the following?

1) Have you shopped for insurance lately?
2) Could you become a good enough cook to avoid most restaurant meals?
3) Do your tires have the recommended air pressure?
4) Have you shopped for internet lately?
5) Are there subscriptions you could cut?
6) Could you take shorter showers?
7) Are you fully invested, or sitting on cash?
8) What could you sell on ebay or CL?
9) Is your house as insulated/efficient as it could be?
10) Can you sew clothes that get torn?
11) What can you repair instead of replace?
12) Are you over-insured?
13) Could you airBNB?
14) Could you Uber during your next regular trip?
15) Can you line-dry your clothes?

One last observation. Many impulse purchases like that rabbit don't occur because a rabbit was needed in and of itself. The rabbit was envisioned to solve some other need, like boredom perhaps. Your wife's job/life may be less exciting than either of you think, and frivilous spending is usually a symptom of underlying discontent. After the newness of the rabbit wears off, the urge to stimulate oneself with something new and flashy - or furry - will return. You could try heading this off by being the family event coordinator and ensuring you always get to do something fun every weekend.

How's the weather for a hike? What's going on at the library? Any cultural events nearby? What if we made a strange, fancy recipie? Let's go to rich people open houses and criticize everything! (OK, so that last one is my quirky idea of a good time.)

Most helpful response.  Thank you.  I like point 2) above.....go for the ones that don't involve her.  RE others:

1) Have you shopped for insurance lately?
Yes.  Doing that now.  Need to find a provider that is reasonable on both auto and prop since we currently get a multiple policy discount.  Auto portion sucks, prop is decent...combo is ok, but I think we can do better.

2) Could you become a good enough cook to avoid most restaurant meals?
Yes, and should.

3) Do your tires have the recommended air pressure?
Mostly.  Main car has an indicator and we adjust when it goes on.

4) Have you shopped for internet lately?
Now, this is one of the areas where I think we could cut a lot.  We have a bundle through comcast.  I'd be happy getting rid of cable and phone component (use antennae and cell phones) and just have reasonable speed internet.  There is and will be resistance to this one, but I think it is doable.

5) Are there subscriptions you could cut?
Other than above, not really.  I cut SiriusXM last month and it took a couple weeks for anyone to notice.  Cancelled a magazine that no one reads.

6) Could you take shorter showers?
yes

7) Are you fully invested, or sitting on cash?
I recently changed this by paying down our main home.  I don't know that you'd call it investing that cash, but we are now fully debt free (other than rental home mortgage).

8) What could you sell on ebay or CL?
Yes.  Need to get off my butt on this one.

9) Is your house as insulated/efficient as it could be?
Windows are old.  Other insulation is fine.  Have thought about new windows, but need to 'do the math' on cost vs. energy savings + value upon home sale.  We'll be in this home at least another 5 years.

10) Can you sew clothes that get torn?
The main issue with clothes is simply buying too much.  Fortunately, my kids are not overly brand name conscious, but my wife probably has the equivalent of 3-4 wardrobes.

11) What can you repair instead of replace?
I try, e.g. lawn mower not starting.  I'm more than happy to look up videos on YouTube to learn how to fix myself.

12) Are you over-insured?
Maybe.  I have a life insurance policy that ends 2 years.  $800/month for $1M.  So, $1600 left in payments.  Told my wife I was thinking of cancelling and received no concerns.

13) Could you airBNB?
I'd love to, but our current home's layout isn't setup for it.  The rental home could or if we do not actually move into it, I'll have airBnB in mind when selecting another one.

14) Could you Uber during your next regular trip?
as opposed to renting a car?  Someone else asked how much we could travel given my wife still works.  She's in education and so has almost 12 weeks off per year, so plenty of time to travel (and pay boarding fees for pets)

15) Can you line-dry your clothes?
Perhaps, but I don't see that one working family wide.

Thanks, again!

RE ebay and CL, I watched the Minimalist video recently, and while it is not always frugal, it makes sense to me.  I am aiming to always ask "does this purchase add value to my life?".  I look forward de-cluttering and making some $$ at the same time.

nouveauRiche

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #85 on: February 16, 2017, 10:39:15 AM »
In case this podcast helps:

Mad FIentist:  "It took a lot of persuading to get her on the show but I’m glad she agreed because her perspective is very different from mine so it was interesting to hear her thoughts on financial independence, early retirement, and this unconventional life we lead!"

His approach was to find out what his wife's goals are and work from there.

http://www.madfientist.com/sane-fientist-interview/


Ann

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #86 on: February 16, 2017, 10:51:37 AM »
I think it is interesting that you feel as though the savings is really mostly "yours" since you saved 95% of it . . . but her income is "ours" and should go to pay for joint expenses.  In fact, that makes me think that she contributed more savings than you give her credit for.  Was your salary really 20 times greater than hers?  Or did you internally contribute her income to the "daily expenses", then your income topped it off and whatever was left over was "your" saving?

Do you pay your half of expenses from savings ("your" contribution)?

I think that you both will have to retool the way you think about finances.  You say that there "was no agreement".  But there WAS an unspoken agreement that seemed to have worked for you as a couple until you quit your job: she contributed, you contributed and no one worried about spending as long as it wasn't excessive.  Now (from her perspective): she contributes, you don't (apparently she's even still doing the shopping here until maybe just now) and you complain about "normal" spending that was fine a few years ago.

An aside: I would maaaaybe not totally count on a relative paying back a loan.  I mean, you SHOULD hold them accountable.  But it would be prudent not to financially rely on timely re-payment.  Separate issue. 

(Still with you that "surprise" pets are not appropriate. I feel as though it is not as much of a financial issue as a "respect your partner and the living creature you are taking responsibility for" issue)/

ChpBstrd

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #87 on: February 16, 2017, 11:04:30 AM »
Glad I could divert you to avenues for savings and income that are more likely to yield savings. Several of these could have a bigger impact than your SO's favorite spending categories. Less conflict is a real bonus.

"Optimizer" mentalities like ours abhor waste. This plus our tendancy to focus on other people's activities can lead us to a suboptimal use of time. I would go nuts if my spouse had a daily ritual of setting a dollar bill on fire, but I burn that same dollar every day in a dozen ways I don't pay attention to (habitual product use, undeployed cash, too much depreciating stuff, long hot showers, snack foods, etc.).

Time spent selling unneeded stuff or researching home efficiency investments could yield a lot of bras and Classico! You might pay for that rabbit with a low-flow showerhead or by repairing a duct leak. But you'll pay for it somehow. You have dozens of wasteful activities to offset with thousands of opportunities. BTW, for the rabbit, lettuce is easy to grow, and table scraps are free. ;)

As other posters have pointed out, the mix of a FIRE spouse and an earning/spending spouse might be easier with a different financial arrangement or a different set of rules for different buckets of money. I'm not sure what's fair here. Separate accounts and halving expenses sounds good, but then how will DW ever retire (is she OK with wage slavery as you become a millionaire)? Can you agree on a goal for her retirement?

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #88 on: February 16, 2017, 02:16:28 PM »
I think it is interesting that you feel as though the savings is really mostly "yours" since you saved 95% of it . . . but her income is "ours" and should go to pay for joint expenses.  In fact, that makes me think that she contributed more savings than you give her credit for.  Was your salary really 20 times greater than hers?  Or did you internally contribute her income to the "daily expenses", then your income topped it off and whatever was left over was "your" saving?

Do you pay your half of expenses from savings ("your" contribution)?

I think that you both will have to retool the way you think about finances.  You say that there "was no agreement".  But there WAS an unspoken agreement that seemed to have worked for you as a couple until you quit your job: she contributed, you contributed and no one worried about spending as long as it wasn't excessive.  Now (from her perspective): she contributes, you don't (apparently she's even still doing the shopping here until maybe just now) and you complain about "normal" spending that was fine a few years ago.

An aside: I would maaaaybe not totally count on a relative paying back a loan.  I mean, you SHOULD hold them accountable.  But it would be prudent not to financially rely on timely re-payment.  Separate issue. 

(Still with you that "surprise" pets are not appropriate. I feel as though it is not as much of a financial issue as a "respect your partner and the living creature you are taking responsibility for" issue)/

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #89 on: February 16, 2017, 02:38:49 PM »
Oops, posted with no response.  I'll try again.

Ann - we have worked at different times.  We were married and I worked as a TA while earning some grad degrees.  She worked as a school counselor.  We overlapped one year when it was truly a DINK situation.  Then I worked 14 years and she none.  Now, she is back to work.

My income average was perhaps 5x hers.  There is no significant savings from her and even the 5 years prior to having kids amounted to 13k from a TEA program.  So, in terms of contributions, yes, 95% was from me.  I'm the one who has funded her IRA's.

I do think that gives me more say in how the savings are spent.  Sorry, I know that rubs many people the wrong way, but I expect in other lop-sided income relationships, the high-earner/high-saver feels the same.

One point in always having joint accounts was explicitly that it IS ours.  The separate accounts, unless for just individual expenses, has always seemed to me as "this is mine, that is yours", which is not what I like.

She legally owns 50% of our net worth.  I don't buy expensive cars, I don't have expensive hobbies.  I am using the net-worth to finance freedom.  She has never had an interest in things financial.  She has been happy to let me oversee things AND for me to take the responsibility that goes with that.

All was commingled.

Do I pay my half on expenses?  It's not an easy question, but if we want to call the savings mine, then yes since I used a bunch of it to wipe out a 1800/month mortgage and use another 17k from savings to cover expenses each year, plus the "overage" from what I'd like spending to be.

Yah, I hear ya on the loan.  But, it wasn't a lot and the property (in Portland OR) has gained about 60% since then.  The loan allowed them to avoid the PMI insurance.  Whether or not that is paid back won't have a big impact.  But, for them, it has been a big financial security booster.

I think you are correct on 'retooling'.  In some respects, it's fully my responsibility since prior to marriage she was frugal.  Then I made some dough and didn't try to encourage the same philosophy.  But, the one poster who likes the word 'unilaterally' misunderstands that my wife has changed as well.  She was frugal and now not.

BabyShark

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #90 on: February 16, 2017, 03:00:40 PM »
Oops, posted with no response.  I'll try again.

Ann - we have worked at different times.  We were married and I worked as a TA while earning some grad degrees.  She worked as a school counselor.  We overlapped one year when it was truly a DINK situation.  Then I worked 14 years and she none.  Now, she is back to work.

My income average was perhaps 5x hers.  There is no significant savings from her and even the 5 years prior to having kids amounted to 13k from a TEA program.  So, in terms of contributions, yes, 95% was from me.  I'm the one who has funded her IRA's.

I do think that gives me more say in how the savings are spent.  Sorry, I know that rubs many people the wrong way, but I expect in other lop-sided income relationships, the high-earner/high-saver feels the same.

One point in always having joint accounts was explicitly that it IS ours.  The separate accounts, unless for just individual expenses, has always seemed to me as "this is mine, that is yours", which is not what I like.

She legally owns 50% of our net worth.  I don't buy expensive cars, I don't have expensive hobbies.  I am using the net-worth to finance freedom.  She has never had an interest in things financial.  She has been happy to let me oversee things AND for me to take the responsibility that goes with that.

All was commingled.

Do I pay my half on expenses?  It's not an easy question, but if we want to call the savings mine, then yes since I used a bunch of it to wipe out a 1800/month mortgage and use another 17k from savings to cover expenses each year, plus the "overage" from what I'd like spending to be.

Yah, I hear ya on the loan.  But, it wasn't a lot and the property (in Portland OR) has gained about 60% since then.  The loan allowed them to avoid the PMI insurance.  Whether or not that is paid back won't have a big impact.  But, for them, it has been a big financial security booster.

I think you are correct on 'retooling'.  In some respects, it's fully my responsibility since prior to marriage she was frugal.  Then I made some dough and didn't try to encourage the same philosophy.  But, the one poster who likes the word 'unilaterally' misunderstands that my wife has changed as well.  She was frugal and now not.

It's either all commingled and therefore you and your wife get an equal say in how the money is spent or it's 95% yours and 5% hers.

charis

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #91 on: February 16, 2017, 03:01:25 PM »
I do think that gives me more say in how the savings are spent.  Sorry, I know that rubs many people the wrong way, but I expect in other lop-sided income relationships, the high-earner/high-saver feels the same.

Nope.  If you really feel this way, I can't imagine that it's not causing problems in your marriage to some extent.  Lopsided-income-couple higher earner here - always have and probably always will, by far, due to our professions.   We are a unit and decisions are joint, including whether one of us stops working and stays home.  You don't get to shirk 50% of the decision that your wife would not work, even if you would rather that she hadn't.   Do you have a chart to keep track of who had more "say" in your marital decisions?

So you think you get more say in how the money is spent.   So what?  How do you plan on having your say?

I recommend counseling, asap.

retired?

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #92 on: February 16, 2017, 03:12:29 PM »
I do think that gives me more say in how the savings are spent.  Sorry, I know that rubs many people the wrong way, but I expect in other lop-sided income relationships, the high-earner/high-saver feels the same.


I recommend counseling, asap.

I didn't complain to her about the pasta example (which most have focused on......it's one of 100-200, and that adds up).  The conversation was:

me:  what sauce do we usually use?
her:  Monte Bene
me: it's $4.48
her: I buy it on sale
me: oh, what is it on sale?
her:  $3.48

then I bought Classico for $2.12.  I didn't complain to her.  I came to the MMM forum for ideas.  Overall, the forum was lacking.  Most here appear to be 'armchair psychologists'.

However, the constructive suggestions are appreciated.  Thanks.

CoderNate

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #93 on: February 16, 2017, 03:15:11 PM »
So the 14 years she spent presumably raising your kids counts for nothing? Daycare is expensive, so no question you saved money there. Not to mention the intangible benefits to your kids from having more individual attention, and all the housework she undoubtedly did while you were at work. I don't think you're giving your wife enough credit.

Edit: My suggestion is to offer to start grocery shopping and/or cooking. When I did this, our grocery bill was cut roughly in half because I have a tendency to buy the cheapest stuff, and stock up when the cheap stuff is on sale. This works out well for my wife too because it is one less thing she has to worry about doing.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 03:17:29 PM by CoderNate »

retired?

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #94 on: February 16, 2017, 03:28:35 PM »
So the 14 years she spent presumably raising your kids counts for nothing? Daycare is expensive, so no question you saved money there. Not to mention the intangible benefits to your kids from having more individual attention, and all the housework she undoubtedly did while you were at work. I don't think you're giving your wife enough credit.

Edit: My suggestion is to offer to start grocery shopping and/or cooking. When I did this, our grocery bill was cut roughly in half because I have a tendency to buy the cheapest stuff, and stock up when the cheap stuff is on sale. This works out well for my wife too because it is one less thing she has to worry about doing.

Correct....raising kids.  Some have gotten the impression that I'm saying 950k is mine...yours is 50k.  Even if I wanted to say that, it's not legally true.  It's not a $ thing, i.e. you control X and I control Y.  I would liken it to a vote count......which will still rub people the wrong way.  I could have worked in a less stressful job that paid much less (perhaps better overall), but the cost of the high $$ income was high stress.  And, for that, I think I get more votes. 

And, yes, to do more of the shopping and cooking is one of the positive suggestions this post has generated.

MilesTeg

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #95 on: February 16, 2017, 03:54:56 PM »
I do think that gives me more say in how the savings are spent.  Sorry, I know that rubs many people the wrong way, but I expect in other lop-sided income relationships, the high-earner/high-saver feels the same.

Well the thread has arrived at the real problem here. It is exceedingly rare for a marriage to have two equal earners. It's also exceedingly rare for a marriage to have two people who contribute the same non or only tangentially financially. I urge you to go price out how much it would cost to pay some stranger to raise your children and be a live in maid.

Either re-adjust your thinking on this, or start looking for a divorce lawyer.

charis

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #96 on: February 16, 2017, 05:14:18 PM »
I do think that gives me more say in how the savings are spent.  Sorry, I know that rubs many people the wrong way, but I expect in other lop-sided income relationships, the high-earner/high-saver feels the same.


I recommend counseling, asap.

I didn't complain to her about the pasta example (which most have focused on......it's one of 100-200, and that adds up).  The conversation was:

me:  what sauce do we usually use?
her:  Monte Bene
me: it's $4.48
her: I buy it on sale
me: oh, what is it on sale?
her:  $3.48

then I bought Classico for $2.12.  I didn't complain to her.  I came to the MMM forum for ideas.  Overall, the forum was lacking.  Most here appear to be 'armchair psychologists'.

However, the constructive suggestions are appreciated.  Thanks.

You lost me here. I didn't say anything about pasta and you cut out my response to your higher earner thing. Did you mean to respond to someone else?

retired?

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #97 on: February 16, 2017, 10:06:40 PM »
Well, this post has about run its course.  Thanks to the few for the useful comments.

And, to the armchair psychologists who think they have a full picture of a 20-year relationship from a few sentences, I give you a positive thought.

Be thankful that you are not married to a selfish, controlling, micro-managing person like dear ol' me (hell, I probably beat the kids and dog) who has worked hard and earned much to (hopefully) ensure that the family is financially safe.  Otherwise, you'd be sitting in front of a 1950's tv eating pasta with watery sauce while your bra is pinching you from both sides.

Now, don't you feel better about your own circumstances?

retired?

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #98 on: February 20, 2017, 10:20:37 PM »
Was thinking further.  I don't know how old the usual reader of MMM may be, and in particular the respondents to my original post. 

But, marriage can be a long haul.  Decades.  3-6 decades.  And, over that time, people change.  I'm speaking to those that said something like "you had an agreement, a contract ......you changed.".  We both changed.  She stopped being frugal and I stopped being one who was willing to exchange high pay for high stress.

People change.  Even married people.  The main significant change I've observed is one person in the couple becoming very religious.  Two couples come to mind.  My sister and my BIL.  And, when I mentioned this observation with my MIL in the room, she replied "I guess that's probably what I did to your FIL".

To me, the religious one is a biggie.  That's a fairly large philosophical viewpoint and you have people changing their views on it.....and expecting their SO to go with the flow.  (to those who think 'so what', I'd argue you've never been around a strongly religious person).

So, to those who feel they are now perfectly aligned with their partner, know that this too can change. 




shelivesthedream

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Re: Extreme Measures (to get your SO on board)
« Reply #99 on: February 21, 2017, 02:51:22 AM »
Mate, seriously. You want some advice? I got some advice. The 95% vs 5% in this thread is that in 95% of it you sound like an asshole (the 5% where you don’t is the rabbit). I’ll agree with you that you can’t get a proper picture of a whole relationship in a few posts, and I’m in no way saying you necessarily are an asshole, but you’ve got to realise we can only give advice on the stuff you’ve told us.

Let’s get back to basics. There are basically three ways to organise money in a relationship:
1.   Joint everything. All the money goes into one big pot and is JOINTLY SPENT/SAVED on everything.
2.   Splitting proportionately. Any joint expenses are JOINTLY AGREED UPON and each partner contributes in proportion to their income. You earn twice as much as your partner? You pay 66% and they pay 33%. They can do what they want (spend or save) with the rest of their money).
3.   Splitting 50/50. Any joint expenses are JOINTLY AGREED UPON and each partner contributes 50% of the costs from their income. They can do what they want (spend or save) with the rest of their money).

Option 1 is saying “We are a team and take all our decisions together”. Option 3 is saying “We live together and love each other but we are still separate individuals”. Option 2 is somewhere in between.

There are some ways to blend these. My husband and I pretty much do the first one but we each have a small personal allowance to spend on whatever we want so I can buy alpaca knitting wool in hand-dyed colours while he can get expensive (read: not DIY) haircuts and buy books. It’s not separate finances, but it’s JOINTLY allocating a certain amount of money to “my stuff” and a certain amount to “his stuff” without needing to get into the details of line items with each other.

Options 1, 2 and 3 would also require a different level of discussion before major life decisions are taken. In option 3, if you quit your job then your spouse can’t really complain as long as you are still paying your half of the expenses. If you quit your job in option 1 then it definitely needs your spouse’s say-so because you are massively changing the money coming into your joint account. Option 2 also needs discussing because you have jointly agreed expenses and if their percentage suddenly rockets to 100%, they need to be prepared for that.

But let’s take another example: buying a house. In all of the options, the cost of the house needs complete buy-in from both partners. Because it is a joint expense that needs to be jointly agreed upon, no matter where the money comes from.

 You absolutely can, during a relationship, decide that whatever option you’re doing isn’t working out and you want to change it. It goes without saying that this needs to be a joint decision. And you need to think carefully about how you deal with any hangovers from the previous option, like savings. For example, if you’re going from option 1 to option 2, is it fair that even though you both paid into the savings account for years assuming it was jointly owned (implied 50/50, I guess), you would suddenly split it along income/contribution lines? If both spouses jointly agree that’s the right thing to do, no problem. But if one says it ought to be 50/50 and one says it ought to be 66/33, you need to come to a consensus. (Or, as a last resort, a compromise that you’re both happy with.)

I agree with you that when you’re married for a long time, sometimes the goalposts change. People change, life circumstances change, you never know what’s going to happen. But it can’t be that one person picks the goalposts up, moves them somewhere else, and then says, “Spouse, this is where the new goalposts are.” Or even, in some case studies I’ve read, moves the goalposts but doesn’t tell the spouse. You need to do it the other way round: say, “Spouse, I think we should move the goalposts here.” And only when they say yes wholeheartedly should you both pick the goalposts up and move them together.

So, let’s return to your account of what happened between you and your wife

Only you know exactly what happened. But sit there for a moment and really think about what did happen. Who made which decision. Who communicated it. How. When.

When you were working, were you both wholeheartedly committed to household spending being option 1? When you quit, has your point of view come round to option 2? Have you told your wife? When? How?

When you quit, you seem clear that you quickly realised it would be forever. But your wife seems to have thought it was only for a little while. How did you communicate that it was forever? When? How?

When looking at the options above, do you feel differently about expenses and about savings? It seems to me like you do.

My income average was perhaps 5x hers.  There is no significant savings from her and even the 5 years prior to having kids amounted to 13k from a TEA program.  So, in terms of contributions, yes, 95% was from me.  I'm the one who has funded her IRA's.

I do think that gives me more say in how the savings are spent.  Sorry, I know that rubs many people the wrong way, but I expect in other lop-sided income relationships, the high-earner/high-saver feels the same.

One point in always having joint accounts was explicitly that it IS ours.  The separate accounts, unless for just individual expenses, has always seemed to me as "this is mine, that is yours", which is not what I like.

It seems to me like you regard spending as something completely jointly owned, but savings as something where you believe that you own the % that you put in. Can you see how that doesn’t add up? This is probably the most important thing in this whole post.

None of the options above is right or wrong. They’re for different people in different places at different times. But whichever option you go for, I do not think you can have one rule for spending and one rule for saving.

For example, it’s OK to decide that you want to define some joint expenses, pay into them 50/50 and then do whatever you want with the rest of the money. That’s fine. It doesn’t make you a bad husband. It doesn’t endanger your marriage. What would make you a bad husband and endanger your marriage is if you decided that (moved the goalposts) and then told your wife that was how it was going to be from now on (“Spouse, this is where the new goalposts are.”) You need to discuss goalpost movement, come to a consensus, and move them together.

(I also want to ask something, and I’m not going to bang on about it but: You earned 95% of the income partially because she took time off work to raise your (JOINT) kids, correct? Please, honestly, get a calculator out right now and work out how much you would have paid in daycare, school bus fees, summer camp, etc if she had not been around. Subtract that from your savings. Give that to her savings. What do the % contributions look like now?)

So, that’s all very well, but you want to know what to DO. Here’s a suggested plan.

1. For one month, STFU about everything she buys and do your utmost to SILENTLY reduce household expenses.
You said that you clean the house because you didn’t want to pay for a cleaner. Great! That’s awesome! What else can you do that for? Can you take on all the grocery shopping and cooking? (Don’t just buy food and expect her to cook it.) Can you shop around for insurance? Can you personally go a month without driving? Find every frugal tip you can and try and implement it silently. Your wife shouldn’t even notice. You should definitely not brag about it to her. And do not discuss anything she buys. Track your expenses for this month and compare vs last month (or any average month).

2. Ask her what she thinks you ought to do about working and expenses and savings.
After a month, sit her down one time when you’re both relaxed, and say: “Honey, I know I quit work in a hurry, and I know you might have found it difficult since then still working while I’m not. I’ve been thinking that maybe we should look at changing the way we manage our expenses and savings together. What do you think?”

Then SHUT UP AND LISTEN. Don’t say anything yourself except little prompts like “What do you mean by that?” and “Can you give me an example?” When you think she’s finished, say, “Thanks for talking with me. Can I take a few days to think over what you’ve said?”

I know you’ll be absolutely dying to either agree or disagree with whatever she says, but don’t. Just let it go and then actually spend a few days thinking over what she’s said.

3. Present an option and listen.
After a few days, hopefully you’ll have come to a conclusion about which option of the three above is the best for you two together. Gently suggest it to her (e.g. “Honey, it seems like you feel very strongly that you don’t want to separate our finances at all. That’s OK, I’m happy to do that, but I think we should have a talk about how to decide jointly what our expenses are. Maybe we should make a budget together. What do you think?”) then SHUT UP AND LISTEN. Rinse and repeat until you come to a consensus.

You need to:
1.   Lead by example and shoulder the burden yourself. This will take time. (It has taken me SEVEN YEARS to get my husband to read a library book. And even now he's not sure if he wants to read another one.)
2.   Come to a genuine consensus about the way you manage money and your budget.
3.   Make sure your entire financial plan together is consistent. (Remember that bolded bit above?)

The best bit of couples financial advice I have ever followed is to ask my husband what he thinks is reasonable first whenever we’re discussing what an expense or budget line item should be. Often he surprises me. It’s like a Socratic dialogue of personal finance – I never demand anything, I just ask questions until he comes up with an answer himself. Particularly when you set the budget line item of “personal spending”, ask her what she thinks it should cover. Ask her how much it should be. You can always funnel your unspent allowance (because it sounds like you won’t spend as much as her, right?) back into savings. And if she overspends on it, don’t pick on the actual stuff she’s spending on. Just say, “Honey, we agreed we’d spend $X on personal stuff. You spent $Y last month. Is everything OK?”

I’m going to be setting a new budget with my husband soon. I expect the conversation to go something like this, with a spreadsheet in front of us.

“These are all the categories I can think of. Am I missing any? OK, so we’ve got £X to spend a month. How much should we spend on A? On B? On C? Etc. Oh dear, it all adds up to a bit more than £X. What do you think we can cut? Hm, it’s still a bit over. Do you think we could cut D? No? OK, that’s fine. How about F? No? Alright. Where do you think we should cut it?”

All in a nice, pleasant, enthusiastic, non-shouty, non-complainy tone. (Sometimes I worry I make my husband sound like a financial idiot on this forum. He really isn’t. He’s just not interested in spending more than the absolute minimum of time thinking about personal finance, and fiddling around with investment spreadsheets is my idea of a good time.)

I’m just going to reiterate something I said earlier. There is no right and wrong answer choosing between options 1, 2 and 3 (or blending them) as long as you move the goalposts together. But you cannot have one rule for spending and one rule for saving.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!