Poll

Which of these would you be comfortable doing in ER?

Collecting welfare benefits and/or SNAP
Having you child get free or reduced lunch
Claiming the EIC
Having your child use a Pell grant or other income-based funding for college
None of the above

Author Topic: Ethics of ER  (Read 61442 times)

grantmeaname

  • CM*MW 2023 Attendees
  • Walrus Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 5988
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Middle West
  • Cast me away from yesterday's things
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #150 on: November 21, 2013, 09:10:08 AM »
You would choose not to work if you found your stash quickly depleting and you wanted to spite people who suggested you should decades earlier in an online discussion thread?

You're acting like taking government benefits now in your time of plenty is the only possible way you can keep your family off the streets three decades hence, and it just ain't so!
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 09:12:56 AM by grantmeaname »

RootofGood

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1361
  • Age: 43
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Retired at age 33. 5 years in, still loving it!
    • Root of Good
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #151 on: November 21, 2013, 09:30:48 AM »
You would choose not to work if you found your stash quickly depleting and you wanted to spite people who suggested you should decades earlier in an online discussion thread?

You're acting like taking government benefits now in your time of plenty is the only possible way you can keep your family off the streets three decades hence, and it just ain't so!

Well of course I would try to get some form of work if my stash was shrinking and on its way to depletion!  I have said as much here on this very forum.  I'm very certain I could find some reasonable occupation to pay me enough to get by (we only spend $32k after all).  But there's a chance I couldn't find anything.  Or for some reason I may be barred from reactivating all of my professional licenses, thereby reducing my potential for employment (maybe I decided to test the requirement to report for jury duty and I thereby get a criminal record). 

A more likely scenario would be some form of serious illness or disability or catastrophically disabling accident that would prevent me or someone in the family from future employment and require additional expenditures to address the disability or illness.  I suppose I could insure against this type of event by saving double or triple what I might likely need.  But it will never be enough.  And once you forgo free money, you can't unforgo it (that's not even a word). 

simonsez

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1584
  • Age: 37
  • Location: Midwest
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #152 on: November 21, 2013, 10:09:14 AM »
Good topic, good discussion for the most part but I have a technical nitpick.

The poll numbers add up to 100%.  In a poll where you can choose 1 or up to 4 responses, that should probably not be true (unless no one would take more than one benefit which probably isn't the case since I've seen people say they voted for multiple responses, unless there were lying......anyway).  The number who said they wouldn't take any benefits plus the number of respondents who elected to take 1+ benefit(s) should add up to 100% to be sure but the way the poll is tallying all the responses together is not accurate and making me question what the actual distribution (or # of voters or if only the first box checked gets counted, etc.) is.

Sorry to distract from the topic but this FERS government worker, who will probably stay long enough (5 years) to be vested in a pension one day, who works in government surveys for a living (and doesn't really have a private counterpart) was doing just fine lurking on this topic until he saw the flaw with the poll.  Cheers!

Edit:  looking at the number who have voted and the number who not accept benefits at all, (57 out of 207 at this point), I see that the poll is indeed recording multiple responses but the denominator should be different for that category.  It should be 57 out of 207, NOT 57 out of all times a box was checked.  The real % of people who would not take benefits of any kind should be ~28%.

Likewise, the denominators for all other reasons should be # of respondents and not # of times a box was checked as well.  For the real %'s as of this point:
12.1% would collect welfare benefits and/or SNAP
14.5% would have their child get free or reduced lunch
43.5% would claim the EIC
66.7% would have their child use a Pell grant or other income-based funding for college
and
27.5% would do none of the above. 

This is out of 207 responses.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 10:15:51 AM by simonsez »

grantmeaname

  • CM*MW 2023 Attendees
  • Walrus Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 5988
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Middle West
  • Cast me away from yesterday's things
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #153 on: November 21, 2013, 10:24:24 AM »
Well of course I would try to get some form of work if my stash was shrinking and on its way to depletion!  I have said as much here on this very forum.  I'm very certain I could find some reasonable occupation to pay me enough to get by (we only spend $32k after all).  But there's a chance I couldn't find anything.  Or for some reason I may be barred from reactivating all of my professional licenses, thereby reducing my potential for employment (maybe I decided to test the requirement to report for jury duty and I thereby get a criminal record).

A more likely scenario would be some form of serious illness or disability or catastrophically disabling accident that would prevent me or someone in the family from future employment and require additional expenditures to address the disability or illness.  I suppose I could insure against this type of event by saving double or triple what I might likely need.  But it will never be enough.
You either have an internal locus of control in this world or you don't. To hear your argument, you live in a world where you have control over things for your very successful career and retirement, and then suddenly lose that personality trait and instead of being an agent affecting the world around you, you're a passive dummy and things happen to you. That's why it's hard for me to imagine you're being serious - you are saying you have control over your circumstances until it's inconvenient for your argument, and then you suddenly have no capacity to change your surroundings, and all you're left with is regrets that you didn't bilk the government out of more money that wasn't meant for you.

Quote
And once you forgo free money, you can't unforgo it (that's not even a word).
false.

RootofGood

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1361
  • Age: 43
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Retired at age 33. 5 years in, still loving it!
    • Root of Good
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #154 on: November 21, 2013, 12:39:27 PM »
You either have an internal locus of control in this world or you don't. To hear your argument, you live in a world where you have control over things for your very successful career and retirement, and then suddenly lose that personality trait and instead of being an agent affecting the world around you, you're a passive dummy and things happen to you. That's why it's hard for me to imagine you're being serious - you are saying you have control over your circumstances until it's inconvenient for your argument, and then you suddenly have no capacity to change your surroundings, and all you're left with is regrets that you didn't bilk the government out of more money that wasn't meant for you.

But I can control each year whether I participate in the government programs.  Maybe at some point I'll decide, "hey I have more money than I can ever spend, and I'm fatigued from looking at all those zeros."  But then I guess I won't be someone who may need any of these handouts (even if I qualify).

I think many here are missing the point of what all these subsidies actually are for. 

Food stamps - low income low wealth (other than retirement assets), and you get nutritional support only.  How many here would actually qualify for these things?  I think if I ever did qualify, I would legitimately need them.  Although realistically I would just get a job doing something, thereby making myself ineligible for the program.  Theoretically I would take them, but in practice, I would likely never qualify.

Free/reduced lunch - Based on eligibility rules, this is a program intended for low to moderate income people without regard to wealth.  Many college educated professionals with a stay at home spouse and a few kids easily qualify ($51,000 income and 3 kids for example).  It isn't a low income program.  I think many don't really get what the program is about and/or don't have kids so think it's "just for poor people".  In addition, it brings resources to your kid's school ($800 per qualifying kid in my case). 

EIC - income supplement that encourages working in low to moderate income families with kids (kids magnify the EIC by 10x or some huge number).  There is a defacto wealth or means test by virtue of the $3200/yr dividends/interest cap.  Our family could have qualified for this if one of us parents remained a stay at home parent. We didn't.  We worked hard, saved a bunch of money (including in after tax accounts), and have too much passive income to qualify now.  This is a pretty solid program in terms of incentives and getting the right class of people a little help when they have kids.  Kudos to the EIC's drafters. 

Means based college grants - Assets and income extend into moderate levels for the various programs (I'll throw federal student loans in this category).  They want to encourage education because it tends to grow better taxpayers and better participants in our economy.  It's not just for poor people. 

I think a lot of people voting here are saying "as long as I'm wealthy I won't participate in any of these programs" when the reality is, they very well might not qualify for any of these programs anyway.  Or wouldn't gain any personal benefit (reduced price lunches for brown bagging students for example).  Or to address the poll question directly - "would you feel comfortable?".  Technically, I wouldn't feel comfortable getting SNAP because it means waiting in a long line to get the benefits and hoop jumping to keep them.  If I qualified legitimately, I would probably still get them because it means we are near destitution (at least in liquid assets). 

Quote
And once you forgo free money, you can't unforgo it (that's not even a word).
Quote
false.

That would get me two or three years of tax credits and exemptions back if I opted not to take them in order to voluntarily increase my tax burden.  A much simpler method to achieve the same objective would be to minimize my taxes and then donate back those credits and deductions after 3 years with a check made to "US Treasury - Repayment of the National Debt".  But I don't think anyone here is saying you shouldn't take almost all tax deductions and credits (EIC being the exception apparently).  So filing amended returns would be of dubious value.

You can't go back in time and reclaim SNAP or free/reduced lunches or any other subsidy provided by these programs.  It's use it or lose it month to month.  Except TANF which does get exhausted after a number of years. 

NumberJohnny5

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 780
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #155 on: November 21, 2013, 01:53:46 PM »
Ok, I'm back and ready for more. It's ok RootofGood, I've got your back!

In response to "but if you are early retired and have X million dollars, do you "need" more money from government programs?":

You wouldn't know you need the help from government programs until it might be too late.  If I have a million dollars, and the government wants to give me $200 more dollars this year (retirement savings contribution credit, for example), I will take it if I qualify.  Having $1,000,200 means more safety and security than having an even million. 

By all reasonable measures, my "million dollars" has a 95-99% chance of lasting my lifetime.  Even higher if I add "cut spending" or "find a little supplemental income" to my repertoire of wealth management tools.  But hey, you never know what you'll end up "needing" down the road.  I could work for 10 more years and get 2 million or 3 million dollars saved.  It still wouldn't change the fact that more money means more security for myself and my family.

Er, um...I think I forgot to...um, appointment...the stove! I totally left the stove on, I'll be right back.

Oh, just text my wife to check it? I guess I could do that. *sigh*

I don't disagree with your point. I just know what's going to happen next. *reads rest of thread* Yup, nailed it!

Why do the uber-millionaires and billionaires hire people to keep their tax liability as low as possible? Don't they realize that by keeping that "extra" $500k to themselves, they're robbing the food stamp program of funds that could be used to help those in need? Or...or...bailout money for the auto industry (American jobs!). Or...everyone in the postal service could get a (small) raise. I mean, they're robbing from us!

Assuming you do so legitimately, I view taking a $1k deduction the same as getting a $1k payment (food stamps, welfare, whatever). That's $1k the government could have used for something, the government said you could have that $1k, and now that's $1k the government doesn't have. If the government would rather keep that $1k for other uses, then it shouldn't give it to you.

If the government wants to give $1k to every family with a kid, I have no problem taking the money (I might take the government aside and tell it that I don't really need the $1k, nor do I think I deserve it, but thanks all the same). If the government wants to help cover the costs of new energy efficient windows to anyone who is willing to buy new energy efficient windows, that's fine. If the government wants to give grocery money to a family of four making less than $24k/yr with less than $2k in non-exempt assets, ok by me.

So, if someone says "free money to anyone in XYZ category!" I'll have no qualms taking it. If someone says "free food for those who are unable to provide for themselves!" I wouldn't take it unless, you know, the crap hit the fan and I'm truly unable to provide for myself.

I still don't see where food stamps is meant only for people unable to buy themselves food. I just see a lot of legalese-type speak that basically says "Person A (government) saw that people in certain categories weren't eating as healthy as he/she thought they should, and decided to setup a program to give those people extra money for groceries, thereby permitting them to eat more nutritiously." There's nothing stopping the government from saying "Hey, we don't want to just permit you to be able to eat more nutritiously...no, we want to do everything in our power, just short of physically cramming nutritious food down your throat, to make sure you eat more nutritiously. So here's a shipment of super nutritious food (or a voucher for super nutritious foods at Walmart, you can tell what items are eligible due to the TDFWIC [Totally Different From WIC] signs)." We know the government can do these things via CSFP and WIC.

grantmeaname

  • CM*MW 2023 Attendees
  • Walrus Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 5988
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Middle West
  • Cast me away from yesterday's things
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #156 on: November 21, 2013, 02:00:09 PM »
Food stamps - low income low wealth (other than retirement assets), and you get nutritional support only.  How many here would actually qualify for these things?  I think if I ever did qualify, I would legitimately need them.  Although realistically I would just get a job doing something, thereby making myself ineligible for the program.  Theoretically I would take them, but in practice, I would likely never qualify.
All college students, AmeriCorps volunteers, entry-level nonprofit and government employees. Many of us, myself included.[/quote]

RootofGood

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1361
  • Age: 43
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Retired at age 33. 5 years in, still loving it!
    • Root of Good
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #157 on: November 21, 2013, 02:18:11 PM »
Food stamps - low income low wealth (other than retirement assets), and you get nutritional support only.  How many here would actually qualify for these things?  I think if I ever did qualify, I would legitimately need them.  Although realistically I would just get a job doing something, thereby making myself ineligible for the program.  Theoretically I would take them, but in practice, I would likely never qualify.
All college students, AmeriCorps volunteers, entry-level nonprofit and government employees. Many of us, myself included.


Sorry, I meant how many here that fit the OP's hypothetical of being early retired would qualify for these programs?  Food stamps appear to be the most difficult given the tight asset tests. 

Maybe "early retired" is the pivotal piece of language that isn't well defined?  I'm looking at it as a big enough investment portfolio to support a ~3-3.5% withdrawal rate indefinitely.  In other words, I would consider someone who is retiring in their 30's with a withdrawal rate over 4% to be undercapitalized and at best marginally "retired".  Odds are decent that spending will drop big time or that person will be back at work. 

The examples you give are all what I would call working people or people on the path to work.  I'm not sure I would deny any of those people food stamps as the program is currently structured.  I think the program is ridiculous and a waste of money on a system wide policy basis, but I wouldn't care if these individuals participated in the program on an individual basis (we have decided as a people that this is a critically important government program). 


RootofGood

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1361
  • Age: 43
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Retired at age 33. 5 years in, still loving it!
    • Root of Good
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #158 on: November 21, 2013, 02:27:34 PM »
Assuming you do so legitimately, I view taking a $1k deduction the same as getting a $1k payment (food stamps, welfare, whatever). That's $1k the government could have used for something, the government said you could have that $1k, and now that's $1k the government doesn't have. If the government would rather keep that $1k for other uses, then it shouldn't give it to you.

If the government wants to give $1k to every family with a kid, I have no problem taking the money (I might take the government aside and tell it that I don't really need the $1k, nor do I think I deserve it, but thanks all the same). If the government wants to help cover the costs of new energy efficient windows to anyone who is willing to buy new energy efficient windows, that's fine. If the government wants to give grocery money to a family of four making less than $24k/yr with less than $2k in non-exempt assets, ok by me.

That's how I see it.   The government wants to help us provide for our kids.  It saves me $5500 per year in federal income tax and even more in state tax.  I don't "need" it (I wouldn't die without the tax breaks), but I accept the money with open arms.  I fully acknowledge when the kids are out of the house, that even my uber awesome tax strategies won't prevent me from paying taxes for someone else's kids. 

Free/reduced lunch is an extension of the "help families with kids" of low to moderate income theme.  Same with EIC and really the college grants too.  Maybe many are opposed to subsidies for kids and that's the reason so few would feel comfortable if they qualified?

beltim

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2957
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #159 on: November 21, 2013, 02:43:07 PM »
So, assuming your other conditions, you'd be okay with having those who aren't retired, who are paying taxes to pay for this program designed to make sure hungry people are fed, pay higher taxes because you've structured your income in such a way as to be eligible for SNAP?

I may not agree with all the laws, but I do (try) to follow (most of) them. Some are beneficial to me. Some hinder me. The majority of the people chose the majority of representatives that passed these laws (yes, I know that's not 100% accurate...work with me here). If people don't like the current laws, they need to try to get them changed. Get enough support, you can make a difference.

I'll try to do my part and point out how the current system works. If I'm able to live in a foreign country and still able to get the $1k per child tax credit, even though I never stepped foot in the US or paid a single cent in US taxes for the entire calendar year...I'll point it out. If that's ok with you, then thanks! If not, then see what you can do to get this changed. In the same vein, I may not like the current public school system in my hometown. I can either not say anything and hope it magically changes, homeschool my kids, or try to change the way things run (or find a good school on the other side of the world, but that may be a bit drastic for most).

If you're basing what you consider ethical off of what the government considers legal, then I suspect that's a fundamental difference in ideology we're not going to get past.

NumberJohnny5

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 780
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #160 on: November 21, 2013, 03:36:40 PM »
If you're basing what you consider ethical off of what the government considers legal, then I suspect that's a fundamental difference in ideology we're not going to get past.

It's not that simple. In fact, I'm not entirely sure exactly what I'd base my ethics off of. Going by what is/isn't legal may be part of the equation, but it's not the entire formula. It may be legal to shoot a deer during hunting season and just let it rot; I don't think I'd find that ethical. It may be illegal to jaywalk instead of walking 50 feet to the nearest crosswalk, but I doubt I'd see that as unethical.

It's legal, so that's one check in the "might be ethical!" list. If I partake of the program, the person next to me who's in even more need (and likely getting even more in food stamp benefits) will not see a reduction in their benefits. Even if enough people like me sign up and benefits are reduced, the amount given will still be more than enough to sustain a family of four (for example, the max benefits for a family of four was recently reduced from $668 to $632; I view $632 as way more than adequate).

Now, if those truly in need are getting barely enough to survive on, and I would take the place of someone truly in need (such as a food bank; if they have 500 boxes of groceries to give out and I take one, that's only 499 boxes of groceries left), then I would view taking that as unethical (assuming, of course, that I felt I could adequately support my family; if it was either take the groceries or my kids will starve, I'll take the groceries!).

So yeah...if food stamps could only have X number of people on the roll at any time, and me getting on the list keeps someone else from getting benefits, I wouldn't want to take advantage of that.

cbgg

  • Stubble
  • **
  • Posts: 192
  • Location: Vancouver, BC
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #161 on: November 21, 2013, 08:18:31 PM »
The college money is in a different category because it's for your young adult, who has not had time to build up assets.  Likewise, I have no problem with Social Security because that's an earned benefit.  If you've paid in, you should be able to receive benefits. 

The others, however, I would not use, nor would I accept the closely-related free health care for the poor (in its numerous names) or reduced-cost public housing or school-clothes-for-kids programs. Why?  Because a person should support himself, if he is able to do so.  If you need help to make ends meet, you should continue working.  Living off the public doll, if you're able to work, makes you no better than the crooks in Congress -- and I would like to think of myself as more moral than that bunch. 

Taking these unearned payments, if you are able to work, will continue to drive up the national debt, which is a huge problem that will affect us . . . But will really be our children's problem. 

If you can, through a combination of hard work and frugal living, quit working, good for you!  But looking to collect from others is nothing short of dishonest.

+1 to everything you've said. 

If you are able bodied and decide to retire early, you should support yourself.  If you don't, you may be inside the law but you are outside my moral standards.  Earned benefits like social security are fine, because you earned them.  Benefits specifically intended to help the poor are not because you are not poor.

Insanity

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1021
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #162 on: November 21, 2013, 09:06:46 PM »
Assuming you do so legitimately, I view taking a $1k deduction the same as getting a $1k payment (food stamps, welfare, whatever). That's $1k the government could have used for something, the government said you could have that $1k, and now that's $1k the government doesn't have. If the government would rather keep that $1k for other uses, then it shouldn't give it to you.

If the government wants to give $1k to every family with a kid, I have no problem taking the money (I might take the government aside and tell it that I don't really need the $1k, nor do I think I deserve it, but thanks all the same). If the government wants to help cover the costs of new energy efficient windows to anyone who is willing to buy new energy efficient windows, that's fine. If the government wants to give grocery money to a family of four making less than $24k/yr with less than $2k in non-exempt assets, ok by me.

That's how I see it.   The government wants to help us provide for our kids.  It saves me $5500 per year in federal income tax and even more in state tax.  I don't "need" it (I wouldn't die without the tax breaks), but I accept the money with open arms.  I fully acknowledge when the kids are out of the house, that even my uber awesome tax strategies won't prevent me from paying taxes for someone else's kids. 

Free/reduced lunch is an extension of the "help families with kids" of low to moderate income theme.  Same with EIC and really the college grants too.  Maybe many are opposed to subsidies for kids and that's the reason so few would feel comfortable if they qualified?

While I understand things aren't exactly as nice as I'd lil ether to be, this is just a horrible comparison. There are so many others on here.  It is actually very sad to see.

1) When you have kids, you are spending a lot more money overall than $1K.  The money is supporting someone's company or someone's income.  It could be baby sitting, it could be buying more food, it could be buying more clothes, or school supplies  -- meaning the essentials (not the iPhones, $100 dresses, etc)..  You aren't "getting $1K" the government is giving you a tax benefit for pushing money into the system.  This is the same thing as why businesses get the tax breaks and credits they get.  When you spend money, people have jobs, they are not dependent upon

2) The intent of the social services programs is to help those who need help getting off their feet.  It isn't supposed to be a long term thing (with the exception of disability) and it isn't supposed to be abused.  Yes, there are others who abuse it in other ways.  Just because you "can" get away with something doesn't make it right (see: Speeding - yes, I do it - but I still go slower than most other traffic, which is scary).

3) Electrical/Solar tax credits/breaks - this is again, a case of spurring the economy or an industry in order to free money up elsewhere.  You are removing the dependency on fossil fuels.  Taking a load off the grid, so that others who might need it can get it and there won't be the "rolling brown/black outs". 

I certainly couldn't look my children in the eyes and tell them daddy doesn't need to work, but you can still get free lunches because daddy manipulated the system.  Woohoo!!  Of course, so did Mark McGuire, Jose Canseco, Alex Rodriguez, Lance Armstrong, etc., etc., etc.

NumberJohnny5

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 780
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #163 on: November 21, 2013, 09:55:54 PM »
Benefits specifically intended to help the poor are not because you are not poor.

Unless the person handing out the money says "All families of four with an annual income under $24k/yr are poor."

It really doesn't matter what my or your definition of poor is. I could think it's less than $12k/yr, Richie McRicherston might think it's less than $250k/yr. The gov is the one handing out the money, so their definition is the one we use.

NumberJohnny5

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 780
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #164 on: November 21, 2013, 10:17:44 PM »
1) When you have kids, you are spending a lot more money overall than $1K.  The money is supporting someone's company or someone's income.  It could be baby sitting, it could be buying more food, it could be buying more clothes, or school supplies  -- meaning the essentials (not the iPhones, $100 dresses, etc)..  You aren't "getting $1K" the government is giving you a tax benefit for pushing money into the system.  This is the same thing as why businesses get the tax breaks and credits they get.  When you spend money, people have jobs, they are not dependent upon

If you're talking about the $1k child tax credit, it's not merely a deduction toward taxes owed. One could owe $0 in taxes and still get the $1k per kid. See http://www.irs.gov/uac/ARRA-and-the-Additional-Child-Tax-Credit . It says that before ARRA came into effect, you would need to have at least $12,550 in earned income in order for the child tax credit to be a refundable credit. Thanks to ARRA, you only need $3,000 in earned income. I can virtually guarantee you that if you're making $3,000 (or even three times that!), you're not going to owe $1k in taxes (in fact, I believe you'd owe exactly $0).

We paid $0 to the IRS last year, and got back $2k in child tax credits. We weren't in the US for even one second last year. The tax program (plus the various documentation I could find) said that we qualified. I don't think we should have...but there you go. Side note, we did have earned income from Australia, reported that income to the IRS, there was tax due on that, but got a credit for the tax already paid (Australia has higher tax rates). Since our forms had earned income showing, we qualified for the child tax credit and were allowed to contribute to a Roth IRA.

Undecided

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1237
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #165 on: November 21, 2013, 10:24:08 PM »
Benefits specifically intended to help the poor are not because you are not poor.

Unless the person handing out the money says "All families of four with an annual income under $24k/yr are poor."

It really doesn't matter what my or your definition of poor is. I could think it's less than $12k/yr, Richie McRicherston might think it's less than $250k/yr. The gov is the one handing out the money, so their definition is the one we use.

Congratulations, you're advocating for a position that is so beyond the bounds of decency that even Congress didn't consider it! Actually, I don't blame Congress, but rather the states that have adopted categorical eligibility standards that would permit it. From what I understand, in my own state, unless an adult applicant is disabled or caring for a young child, the adult will be disqualified from SNAP unless working or looking for work (although I'm sure it's more complex than that). I guess this is how liberals get turned into conservatives.

iris lily

  • Walrus Stache
  • *******
  • Posts: 5688
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #166 on: November 21, 2013, 11:40:39 PM »

If you are able bodied and decide to retire early, you should support yourself.  If you don't, you may be inside the law but you are outside my moral standards.  Earned benefits like social security are fine, because you earned them.  Benefits specifically intended to help the poor are not because you are not poor.

This sums my thoughts nicely.

Mississippi Mudstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2174
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Danielsville, GA
    • A Riving Home - Ramblings of a Recusant Woodworker
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #167 on: November 22, 2013, 07:43:38 AM »
This has been quite the discussion. I selected the EIC and Pell Grants as benefits I would accept (though, really, I wouldn't accept a Pell Grant for myself, but I would be OK with my children accepting it. I paid for my own college education with scholarships, grants, and jobs, and I expect my children to do the same). I really can't imagine ever wanting to sign up for food stamps or free/reduced lunch, even though RootofGood gave some compelling reasons for the reduced lunch benefits.

I really don't see any issue with the EIC, though, and I'm surprised that so many came out opposed to it. Seattlecyclone mentioned to me in a thread that I started not too long ago (Optimize Your Taxable Income) that I would probably be eligible for the Additional Child Tax Credit and the Earned Income Credit, meaning that I would end up with negative federal income tax liability. Nobody came out to chastise me for considering taking benefits that I don't "need", even though I clearly would qualify. Would you consider me unethical for taking these benefits? Does it make a difference that I am working and not "retired"? Does it matter that my wife, who is perfectly capable of working, chooses to stay home with our children instead? Would we be more ethical if she chose to ship the kids off to daycare every day so that we could earn too much money to qualify for EIC?

RootofGood

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1361
  • Age: 43
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Retired at age 33. 5 years in, still loving it!
    • Root of Good
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #168 on: November 22, 2013, 08:03:03 AM »
I certainly couldn't look my children in the eyes and tell them daddy doesn't need to work, but you can still get free lunches because daddy manipulated the system.  Woohoo!!  Of course, so did Mark McGuire, Jose Canseco, Alex Rodriguez, Lance Armstrong, etc., etc., etc.

Aren't you citing people that actually broke the law or at least broke the rules of the the organizations that govern their respective sports? 

That's very different from participating in programs you qualify for.

I think committing fraud or lying to gain any of these benefits is pretty dirty (as all here agree). 


RootofGood

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1361
  • Age: 43
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Retired at age 33. 5 years in, still loving it!
    • Root of Good
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #169 on: November 22, 2013, 09:23:59 AM »
I find this topic very interesting as a thought experiment, although in practice it is mostly hypothetical for me. 

Except I plan on participating in the reduced or free school lunch program if we qualify.  I think I have justified why I personally intend to participate in the free/reduced lunch program.  It earns our socioeconomically depressed school $800 per F/R kid and the school uses the money to hire extra teachers to reduce class sizes to 16-17 students.  I also have a different view of the free/reduced lunch program - it isn't for poor people (oh the unwashed masses!) but instead a program for low to moderate income people without any regard to wealth or assets, and it covers a wide swath of the middle class and working class. 

Someone pointed out that the $800 per kid my school gets has to come from someone else's school somewhere else in the district, state, or nation (it's federal money given out at the state level which gets allocated to districts and then to schools). 

This led me to wonder how far people extend their levels of altruism.  Conceptually, I think of altruism as a set of concentric circles.  I put immediate family in the first circle in the very middle, then extended family in the next circle.  Close friends go in the next circle.  People in my neighborhood and casual acquaintances go in the next circle.  Then there might be a few more circles that cover residents of my city and county, then my state, and finally my fellow Americans in the next to outermost circle.  The rest of the world (even those cooky North Koreans, Cubans, Venezuelans, and Iranians) go in the outermost circle.  Here's what this concept looks like in my mind: 



My altruistic leanings are greatest in the innermost circle that contains immediate family.  As I get farther away from the center of the circle, my altruistic tendencies decline.  Any kind of significant altruism extends only as far as the circles containing close friends, neighbors and acquaintances.  Beyond that circle, the altruism gets rather thin.  Random strangers in my city, state, country and world are still fellow human beings, but there isn't any real strong connection between me and them. 

Perhaps my altruistic tendencies are flawed or very different than some posting on this forum?  If I can obtain something for those in the inner circles ( for example, $2400 for my kids' school in my neighborhood), it necessarily takes from those in the outer circles.  But in my "calculus of altruism", it is internally consistent and makes sense to do so.  This view shapes where my volunteering and policy interests are focused as well (at the local level).  You can see the beneficiaries and the results of progress. 

That's also why I am motivated to take a benefit that I qualify for, even when I may not starve absent the benefit.  I can deploy the benefit to those in my inner circles of altruism which I prioritize higher than those in the outer circles of altruism (ie My Fellow Americans that fund all of the programs mentioned by the OP in this thread). 

edited to add  These circles can turn elliptical when natural disaster strikes.  For example, the "rest of the world" circle might get eccentric to the point of it entering the inner circles alongside neighbors and acquaintances like when a typhoon hits the Philippines and causes massive destruction.  At least that's how my "charity model" or altruism works on a conceptual level.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2013, 09:29:13 AM by RootofGood »

beltim

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2957
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #170 on: November 22, 2013, 09:29:41 AM »
I really don't see any issue with the EIC, though, and I'm surprised that so many came out opposed to it. Seattlecyclone mentioned to me in a thread that I started not too long ago (Optimize Your Taxable Income) that I would probably be eligible for the Additional Child Tax Credit and the Earned Income Credit, meaning that I would end up with negative federal income tax liability. Nobody came out to chastise me for considering taking benefits that I don't "need", even though I clearly would qualify. Would you consider me unethical for taking these benefits? Does it make a difference that I am working and not "retired"? Does it matter that my wife, who is perfectly capable of working, chooses to stay home with our children instead? Would we be more ethical if she chose to ship the kids off to daycare every day so that we could earn too much money to qualify for EIC?

The difference is absolutely that you are working and not retired.  I have no problem with people taking these benefits when eligible when they are working – that is, after all, what they are for.  I think it's unfortunate that most of the discussion here has focused on "need," when I think the more important ethical consideration is intent or design.  The EIC was designed pretty much explicitly for you situation - household member(s) working, income at a certain level (in your case adjusted because of kids) – you exactly fit the bill of who the EIC was designed for.  On the other hand, I think it's pretty clear that the EIC was not designed for early retirees.

Undecided

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1237
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #171 on: November 22, 2013, 10:43:26 AM »
Except I plan on participating in the reduced or free school lunch program if we qualify.  I think I have justified why I personally intend to participate in the free/reduced lunch program.  It earns our socioeconomically depressed school $800 per F/R kid and the school uses the money to hire extra teachers to reduce class sizes to 16-17 students.  I also have a different view of the free/reduced lunch program - it isn't for poor people (oh the unwashed masses!) but i

A quibble, but I thought (and I may be mistaken) that you'd shown that your school received the money based on your children qualifying for the school lunch program, not on their participation in the program.

RootofGood

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1361
  • Age: 43
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Retired at age 33. 5 years in, still loving it!
    • Root of Good
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #172 on: November 22, 2013, 10:51:51 AM »

A quibble, but I thought (and I may be mistaken) that you'd shown that your school received the money based on your children qualifying for the school lunch program, not on their participation in the program.

I have to complete the form and actually have the lunch price assigned as free or reduced.  I suppose theoretically I could force my kids to never eat a school lunch or make them wad up $2 or $1.60 (the daily per capita savings if lunch was free or reduced) and toss it on the counter when they received their subsidized lunch each day.  Or offset the savings with an additional donation to the school.  But I definitely have to fill out the forms stating my income in order for the school to get the extra $800.  I don't know if you call filling out the form qualifying or participating - largely semantics I guess.

Insanity

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1021
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #173 on: November 22, 2013, 11:10:20 AM »
I certainly couldn't look my children in the eyes and tell them daddy doesn't need to work, but you can still get free lunches because daddy manipulated the system.  Woohoo!!  Of course, so did Mark McGuire, Jose Canseco, Alex Rodriguez, Lance Armstrong, etc., etc., etc.

Aren't you citing people that actually broke the law or at least broke the rules of the the organizations that govern their respective sports? 

That's very different from participating in programs you qualify for.

I think committing fraud or lying to gain any of these benefits is pretty dirty (as all here agree).

Aren't you lying that you need the free lunches?  Aren't you purposefully setting your income up to a level where you acquire them even though you have the ability to get more?

randymarsh

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1369
  • Location: Denver
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #174 on: November 22, 2013, 11:15:50 AM »
The EIC was designed pretty much explicitly for you situation - household member(s) working, income at a certain level (in your case adjusted because of kids) – you exactly fit the bill of who the EIC was designed for.  On the other hand, I think it's pretty clear that the EIC was not designed for early retirees.

Bold mine. Depends on how you're going to early retire. You can't get the EIC unless you have earned income like wages or self employment income. An early retiree living off of investments won't be eligible in the first place.

If your version of FIRE includes working part-time or a side-hustle, then by definition you are working and have income at a certain level. You still fit who the EIC was designed for.

Mr.Macinstache

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 922
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #175 on: November 22, 2013, 11:33:54 AM »
I certainly couldn't look my children in the eyes and tell them daddy doesn't need to work, but you can still get free lunches because daddy manipulated the system.  Woohoo!!  Of course, so did Mark McGuire, Jose Canseco, Alex Rodriguez, Lance Armstrong, etc., etc., etc.

Aren't you citing people that actually broke the law or at least broke the rules of the the organizations that govern their respective sports? 

That's very different from participating in programs you qualify for.

I think committing fraud or lying to gain any of these benefits is pretty dirty (as all here agree).

Aren't you lying that you need the free lunches?  Aren't you purposefully setting your income up to a level where you acquire them even though you have the ability to get more?

Yes. RoG has his own sense of entitlement and has admitting that many reasons: Congress critters get bloated lifelong pensions, etc etc.

He will do all sorts of contortions to personally justify getting welfare he does not need. There's a word described for people who do that and it isn't "Badass". Genuine need for welfare is one thing, but taking handouts you don't need is just another form of greed.

RootofGood

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1361
  • Age: 43
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Retired at age 33. 5 years in, still loving it!
    • Root of Good
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #176 on: November 22, 2013, 11:37:02 AM »
Aren't you lying that you need the free lunches?  Aren't you purposefully setting your income up to a level where you acquire them even though you have the ability to get more?

I am not lying about my eligibility.  They don't ask you to swear or affirm that you are destitute.  That isn't even how the program works.  We can make $51,000+ per year and still get reduced price lunches.  Is that low income?  Not in my neighborhood or city.  Maybe in NYC or SF.   

There is no wealth test or asset threshold that disqualifies you.  I sincerely think this program is designed to be broadly available to low to moderate income households.  Note I didn't mention wealth.  This program is just like so many other child-centric handouts - personal exemptions, child tax credits, dependent care deductions, college/education deductions, EIC.  The government thinks it is important for us to go forth and multiply and they want to provide buckets of cash to help with the cost of raising children.  I honestly can't view all these different programs in their entirety otherwise.  Why go out of their way to have all these different programs that heavily subsidize children unless the intent is to heavily subsidize children? 

I don't get what you mean by "purposefully setting your income up to a level where you acquire them even though you have the ability to get more".  I intend to craft my income stream to minimize taxes and maximize deductions and credits (like ACA insurance subsidy) over the course of my lifetime.  None of these four programs mentioned by OP are constraints in my financial model.  They are just not very likely to ever happen, or in the case of free/reduced lunch, the benefits are so tiny it's rounding error in my overall financial model.  At a maximum, we would save $288 per kid per year with reduced price lunches.  That's $864/yr max for all three kids for a few years when all 3 are in school at the same time.  The reality is our kids brown bag occasionally or are absent from school, so the benefit decreases from there. 

I would never, for example, give up converting a large amount of trad IRA to Roth IRA in my tax free bracket just to take advantage of the F/R lunch savings.  If I qualify, I qualify.  Based on my current model, I will qualify for reduced lunches while the 3 kids are dependents and eventually we will not qualify as the kids leave the house (and won't be in K12 schools anyway). 

However, today, my wife is still working (at least another 1-2 years) and we don't qualify (she makes a little more than the threshold amount).  I don't really care about not qualifying for the F/R subsidy.  The system is working the way it should (we have left the realm of "moderate" income). 



I think you want to establish a rule that all able bodied adults in a household must work at the highest paid full time job available in order to ethically accept any form of government handout. 

Being a stay at home parent, working part time, or working at something you are passionate about or merely interested in (even volunteer work) would all seemingly disqualify one from accepting government handouts.  Is that a correct formulation of the rule you expect others to follow?  If so, it's pretty far from the rule for many of the government programs (some do require work or searching for work, although not to the highest and best abilities of the person necessarily). 

Am I not allowed to pursue volunteer positions that pay nothing or jobs that interest me (even though doing so would make me eligible for some programs)? 

Can I not take care of my children?  What if it takes 2 of us to care for our children in the manner we see fit?

Undecided

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1237
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #177 on: November 22, 2013, 02:09:46 PM »

A quibble, but I thought (and I may be mistaken) that you'd shown that your school received the money based on your children qualifying for the school lunch program, not on their participation in the program.

I don't know if you call filling out the form qualifying or participating - largely semantics I guess.

Somehow I'd formed the impression that a precisely focused reading of the relevant language was an important part of your evaluation of the ethical component of your consideration of taking these benefits. Semantics, indeed.

grantmeaname

  • CM*MW 2023 Attendees
  • Walrus Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 5988
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Middle West
  • Cast me away from yesterday's things
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #178 on: November 22, 2013, 02:46:37 PM »
Mom to 5, do your kids agree with the notion that they wdrent learning anything because they were doing well? As a top percentile student I find that logic very odd.

Mississippi Mudstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2174
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Danielsville, GA
    • A Riving Home - Ramblings of a Recusant Woodworker
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #179 on: November 22, 2013, 02:51:04 PM »
I really don't see any issue with the EIC, though, and I'm surprised that so many came out opposed to it. Seattlecyclone mentioned to me in a thread that I started not too long ago (Optimize Your Taxable Income) that I would probably be eligible for the Additional Child Tax Credit and the Earned Income Credit, meaning that I would end up with negative federal income tax liability. Nobody came out to chastise me for considering taking benefits that I don't "need", even though I clearly would qualify. Would you consider me unethical for taking these benefits? Does it make a difference that I am working and not "retired"? Does it matter that my wife, who is perfectly capable of working, chooses to stay home with our children instead? Would we be more ethical if she chose to ship the kids off to daycare every day so that we could earn too much money to qualify for EIC?

The difference is absolutely that you are working and not retired.  I have no problem with people taking these benefits when eligible when they are working – that is, after all, what they are for.  I think it's unfortunate that most of the discussion here has focused on "need," when I think the more important ethical consideration is intent or design.  The EIC was designed pretty much explicitly for you situation - household member(s) working, income at a certain level (in your case adjusted because of kids) – you exactly fit the bill of who the EIC was designed for.  On the other hand, I think it's pretty clear that the EIC was not designed for early retirees.

What if, instead of completely retiring when I reach FI, I choose to take a less stressful job with a government agency that pays half of what I am earning today? What if I use my real estate license to make a few sales and earn a quarter of what I am earning today? What if, instead of investing in the stock market with my retirement funds, I decide to buy 400 acres of timberland, set up a corporation, and pay myself low wages to manage the timberland? I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I don't really see these things as black and white.

I would say that, personally, I have some internal resistance to taking benefits - e.g., WIC, food stamps, free/reduced lunch - that are specifically designated to provide food. I absolutely do not need any assistance with food, so I can see how accepting these benefits could be ethically wrong. On the other hand, I don't feel the slightest twinge of emotion about accepting any and all income tax credits/deductions for which I am legally eligible, no matter what my circumstances are.

I can't say that there is any particular logic to the way I feel, but I find myself somewhere between the two extremes on this topic. I don't feel "more ethical" than either side. I really don't have a problem with RootofGood accepting whatever benefits for which he is eligible, but I don't see anyone who refuses benefits for which they are eligible to be standing on higher moral ground. Fraud bothers me, utilizing loopholes does not, but we each have to make our own decisions about what we're comfortable with.

avonlea

  • Guest
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #180 on: November 22, 2013, 02:56:50 PM »
Mom to 5, do your kids agree with the notion that they wdrent learning anything because they were doing well? As a top percentile student I find that logic very odd.

I think she is saying that her kids weren't challenged enough.  I'm sure that they were learning something, but they had the capability to learn more.  Her kids probably scored well on tests, but the tests were too easy for them.

grantmeaname

  • CM*MW 2023 Attendees
  • Walrus Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 5988
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Middle West
  • Cast me away from yesterday's things
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #181 on: November 22, 2013, 03:46:24 PM »
I was at a nongraded school for elementary for what that's worth too. I agree that a consistent 98 percent is a sign a student's unchallenged, but I'd say it's far from sufficient. (Not to judge your parenting, of course, and I get that you asked the kid's input - I was just curious about the opposite perspective on these sorts of issues).

avonlea

  • Guest
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #182 on: November 22, 2013, 05:30:40 PM »
Grant, I can tell that you would be a top student.

Yes, I don't think anybody would disagree with that. :)

beltim

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2957
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #183 on: November 22, 2013, 11:58:02 PM »
What if, instead of completely retiring when I reach FI, I choose to take a less stressful job with a government agency that pays half of what I am earning today? What if I use my real estate license to make a few sales and earn a quarter of what I am earning today? What if, instead of investing in the stock market with my retirement funds, I decide to buy 400 acres of timberland, set up a corporation, and pay myself low wages to manage the timberland? I guess the point I'm trying to make is that I don't really see these things as black and white.

I would say that, personally, I have some internal resistance to taking benefits - e.g., WIC, food stamps, free/reduced lunch - that are specifically designated to provide food. I absolutely do not need any assistance with food, so I can see how accepting these benefits could be ethically wrong. On the other hand, I don't feel the slightest twinge of emotion about accepting any and all income tax credits/deductions for which I am legally eligible, no matter what my circumstances are.

I can't say that there is any particular logic to the way I feel, but I find myself somewhere between the two extremes on this topic. I don't feel "more ethical" than either side. I really don't have a problem with RootofGood accepting whatever benefits for which he is eligible, but I don't see anyone who refuses benefits for which they are eligible to be standing on higher moral ground. Fraud bothers me, utilizing loopholes does not, but we each have to make our own decisions about what we're comfortable with.

Now this is interesting. Personally, I'm interested in what differentiates one benefit from another.  That's what I've been struggling to get people to engage on.  Clearly, what is legal is not necessarily ethical, and vice versa.  The question is, how do you determine what is ethical?

I think the first answer in this thread, and the one that's been discussed the most, is need.  I've tried to move beyond a simple consideration of need, and suggested that we should consider the purpose of laws, or the intent of lawmakers.  I still think this is an important consideration, and worth discussing.  (As a side note, the primary purpose of the EIC, according to a document from HHS, is "to aid employed workers in achieving and maintaining their independence from welfare by making work more attractive" - https://peerta.acf.hhs.gov/uploadedFiles/EITC%20Newsletter.pdf). The intent of a program (feed the hungry, prevent people from going on welfare), is in my mind more important to ethical considerations than the from that assistance takes - in these cases, tax breaks or refunds. 

RootofGood had an excellent post where he attempted to describe his ethical thought process.  His approach, at its core, is tribal.  He's effectively saying that nearby, specific benefits outweigh the distributed costs to many people who are significantly more removed from his life.  Almost everyone lives their life this way to some extent, and I very much appreciate his description.

The more I think about this, the more I think the best ethical basis here is Kant's categorical imperative: Act only according to that maxim whereby you can, at the same time, will that it should become a universal law.  In this case, the question is, what if everyone did it?  One of MMM's more important posts, to me, deals with the consideration of the ethics of early retirement in this way.  This thread, however, is filled with examples of people using what are essentially loopholes in the system - "sure, that benefit may not be intended for people like me, but the tax code allows it and so I should use it."  This approach cannot be universal - in a world where everyone sought RootofGood's retirement, there is no way everyone could take advantage of food stamps. This lack of universality, of sustainability, to me makes that approach immoral. 
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 12:00:04 AM by beltim »

Emilyngh

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 901
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #184 on: November 23, 2013, 06:26:36 AM »
This approach cannot be universal - in a world where everyone sought RootofGood's retirement, there is no way everyone could take advantage of food stamps. This lack of universality, of sustainability, to me makes that approach immoral.


By this argument, engaging in any activity that uses resources that are anywhere close to the av American lifestyle is immoral.   So driving a car, living in an American house or apartment, flying, eating an produce that's not locally grown by a small farmer in season, etc are immoral.   The world does not have the resources for every citizen to live similarly.   Is this really the argument that you're prepared to make?

beltim

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 2957
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #185 on: November 23, 2013, 11:32:09 AM »
This approach cannot be universal - in a world where everyone sought RootofGood's retirement, there is no way everyone could take advantage of food stamps. This lack of universality, of sustainability, to me makes that approach immoral.


By this argument, engaging in any activity that uses resources that are anywhere close to the av American lifestyle is immoral.   So driving a car, living in an American house or apartment, flying, eating an produce that's not locally grown by a small farmer in season, etc are immoral.   The world does not have the resources for every citizen to live similarly.   Is this really the argument that you're prepared to make?

You're begging the question.  For that to be an ethical concern, you'd have to prove your assumptions there first.

Insanity

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1021
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #186 on: November 23, 2013, 12:02:12 PM »
@Root:
It is your decision to make.  I never suggested that everyone needs to do able body work.  Not at all.  I don't have a problem with someone volunteering.  If you are choosing to volunteer, but are considering yourself to be "FIRE" while at the same time taking on benefits that are in place for those in "need" (be it moderately or desperately) than you are being hypocritical.  This is just my opinion.  We can agree to disagree.

CWAL

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #187 on: November 23, 2013, 12:44:18 PM »
I have a spreadsheet that tracks my FI progress, and one of the columns is a sum of total tax paid over the journey to FI.  By the time I hit FI, the government will have accumulated from me an amount equal to approximately 1/3 my net worth at that time.

With that in mind, I have zero moral qualms about fully utilizing any welfare, subsidy, tax break, or other program which I legally qualify for. :)

ShortInSeattle

  • Pencil Stache
  • ****
  • Posts: 574
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #188 on: November 23, 2013, 02:42:56 PM »
I think this whole debate is about our values, right?  Ethics are our moral gray area.  Once you've drawn your line in the sand it's easy to argue either way.

This is a set of heart-decisions, not  necessarily brain-decisions.

So how would you quantify your values (personal code) with regard to social programs and/or tax breaks?

Here are Mine:
1) Be financially self-sufficient.  Take care of yourself and your family. 
2) Contribute to a social safety net to prevent malnutrition, starvation, and death.  Be compassionate.
3) When it comes to the social safety net, take only what you truly need.  See #1

As an alternative to more arguments, I suppose I'd be curious what your lists look like. :)

SIS
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 08:36:14 AM by ShortInSeattle »

kmm

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 49
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #189 on: November 23, 2013, 09:48:33 PM »
I think this whole debate is about our values, right?  Ethics are our moral gray area.  Once you've drawn your line in the stand it's easy to argue either way.

This is a set of heart-decisions, not  necessarily brain-decisions.

So how would you quantify your values (personal code) with regard to social programs and/or tax breaks?

Here are Mine:
1) Be financially self-sufficient.  Take care of yourself and your family. 
2) Contribute to a social safety net to prevent malnutrition, starvation, and death.  Be compassionate.
3) When it comes to the social safety net, take only what you truly need.  See #1

As an alternative to more arguments, I suppose I'd be curious what your lists look like. :)

SIS

I like your list, SIS.

CWAL

  • 5 O'Clock Shadow
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #190 on: November 24, 2013, 10:44:45 AM »
I really like you list as well.

Oddly enough, for me, from a 'brain-decisions' standpoint, I agree with your list 100%.

From a 'heart-decisions' standpoint, I find myself conflicted.  I probably got a bit too much of the selfish gene. xD

RootofGood

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1361
  • Age: 43
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Retired at age 33. 5 years in, still loving it!
    • Root of Good
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #191 on: November 24, 2013, 11:52:42 AM »
Root, do you feel like your kids' school is beneficial to them, or is it another thing that you use because it is free? You mentioned earlier that they have top scores. In my experience with my own kids, this has meant they were not learning much in that setting.

I think their school is beneficial.  Ignoring costs, it may not be the absolute best school for them, as I am sure there are boarding schools somewhere in the world that might push them harder.  Or I could enroll them in supplemental schooling like Chinese or Japanese school on Saturdays. 

Factoring in costs of local private schools and the general lack of quality compared to public schools, I think choosing a local private school would be a waste. 

My kids have 16-17 kids in their class, which is smaller than our local private schools.  There are lots of opportunities for one on one or small group instruction.  The school does a great job with enrichment activities.  My kids aren't necessarily the smartest kids in the class, but they are in the top few kids in their respective classes. 

We also consider formal schooling as one part of their overall education.  We give additional work on top of what the school requires.  It's quite an epiphany when you realize you are ultimately responsible for your own kids' education, and school should be used as a part of that education plan.

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3505
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #192 on: November 25, 2013, 09:01:15 PM »
Yeah. RootOfGood's kids' principal seems pretty convinced that each free/reduced lunch student in his school causes his budget to go up by about $800, and that he is able to use this additional money to hire more teachers and reduce class sizes. This money may come with strings attached, but he and/or the school board consider it to be a worthwhile trade. Until proven otherwise, I'll assume the principal knows a thing or two about where the budget he manages comes from.
As I said, I've worked in a Title 1 school, and I've worked with the budget personally.  Our county is fairly affluent (we have a few industries, but much of our county is a "bedroom community" for a neighboring city with lots of professional jobs), but a couple years ago my school became the first Title 1 high school in the county -- funny thing is, we're not the "poor" end of the county.  Wanting to do this right, our principal put together a task force with two members from each of the core departments plus special ed.  We were tasked with creating a proposal about how to use the small amount of money we were to receive to help the kids in need.  We talked at tremendous length over multiple days about the number of things that could help -- remedial programs, expanded vocational classes, more books for the library, eReaders or other technology -- thinking we had lots of options available to us, we did not reach an agreement easily . . . finally we settled on two goals:  1) Most students who fail EOCs (End of Course tests) are freshmen.  Most of those students did fine in middle school, but they failed to make the transition to high school.  We would create a later summer "transition camp" to help them ease the gap between middle school and high school and provide them with the skills to start high school strong.  This would be available to all incoming freshmen, but the students identified as at-risk by the middle school would be personally invited and encouraged to attend.  Teachers would help with the camp in exchange for comp time, so this was going to be a fairly low-cost event.  2) The students who fail EOCs tend to fail multiple EOCs, they are likely to become discipline problems, and they are more likely to drop out.  We decided we would add 1/2 a teacher to each of the core departments and would create a "Second chance" class, which would house all these troubled students together (so as not to diminish the other sections), which would be taught at a slower pace, and would be small in number.  Where possible, new materials would be used rather than simply repeating what they'd just failed (i.e., all freshman English classes read Romeo & Juliet, so a different title would be on the agenda for the "Second Chance" class).  These students would also receive extra help with skills such as note-taking and time management, things that would stand them in good stead for future classes.  The principals would visit these classes frequently, even teaching some small lessons here and there, so that these at-risk students would see them as people rather than just administrators who had down punishments.  All of us (plus the principal and the county office) were thrilled with these two ideas, thinking they'd really make a difference.   

Both proposals, though clearly sound and definitely helpful to the issues at hand, were soundly rejected.  After editing the proposals over the course of 4-5 months (the reasons for rejection began to seem random -- can't spend this money before the first day of school, can't identify those who've failed in such a way that other students will know, must be sustainable, cannot hire personnel -- it felt like a game of "gotcha" -- oh, you want this, well, we only allow that to schools whose colors are green and white, sorry -- okay, I exaggerate, but it felt like that), we finally hit up on a concept that none of us liked, but which was acceptable to the Title 1 folks:  We have a special computer lab in the school, which is only used by students who have failed classes.  They work on "credit recovery software" at their own pace, and they are supervised by a clerical staff member.  It is not particularly a helpful addition to the school, and it has had a particularly negative effect on a few of our students: They prefer sitting in this computer lab clicking away at multiple choice questions 'til they find the right answers . . . over writing papers and discussing things in class.  So some of them actually just sit through the class, intending all along to fail, knowing that they'll get the chance to knock the class out on the computer software.   

Every one of us on the first task force resigned from the process in protest.  Like it did any good. 

Actually, the younger teachers have benefited financially from being a Title 1 school more than the students, but that's another topic altogether. 


I'm probably biased because I think government pensions tend to retain the worst employees because the best employees leave for greener pastures.  The worst employees are unemployable in the private sector due to poor performance, outdated skills, lack of work ethic or creativity, or some combination of those factors.  This is an ugly, broad generalization
Why would we want a system that encouraged "the best employees" to leave for greener pastures?  If we want government to run well, shouldn't we keep the government pastures green so that those employees will not be tempted to stray?  The pension is one way of keeping pastures green.

Why would the worst employees be retained?  If indeed their performance is poor, their skills are outdated, and so forth, why wouldn't they be fired? 

I agree that this is an ugly, broad generalization, and it does not represent the workplace in which I've served for years.  I can think of a handful of bad employees with whom I've worked over the years, and they didn't stay.  A few have been fired, but most just leave because they're bad at their jobs, because they know the rest of us don't like them, or because they're pressured by admin and choose to leave before they can be fired. 


There used to be something called pride in this country, people felt it when they worked hard and met their duties as parents and neighbors. Pride is earned, it isn't given. There's more important things in life than never missing a meal or scoring a handout, it's the pride I feel knowing I can fend for myself, feed my family and not be dependent on others. My path is hardwork, family, and morals, and I'd rather starve than take a handout. I want to meet people who share my values, that's why I'm typing here, and my path is clear, I hope everyone else can find their path.
Couldn't agree more. 


RootofGood

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1361
  • Age: 43
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Retired at age 33. 5 years in, still loving it!
    • Root of Good
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #193 on: November 26, 2013, 08:37:02 AM »
Yeah. RootOfGood's kids' principal seems pretty convinced that each free/reduced lunch student in his school causes his budget to go up by about $800, and that he is able to use this additional money to hire more teachers and reduce class sizes. This money may come with strings attached, but he and/or the school board consider it to be a worthwhile trade. Until proven otherwise, I'll assume the principal knows a thing or two about where the budget he manages comes from.
Both proposals, though clearly sound and definitely helpful to the issues at hand, were soundly rejected.  After editing the proposals over the course of 4-5 months (the reasons for rejection began to seem random -- can't spend this money before the first day of school, can't identify those who've failed in such a way that other students will know, must be sustainable, cannot hire personnel -- it felt like a game of "gotcha" -- oh, you want this, well, we only allow that to schools whose colors are green and white, sorry -- okay, I exaggerate, but it felt like that), we finally hit up on a concept that none of us liked, but which was acceptable to the Title 1 folks:  We have a special computer lab in the school, which is only used by students who have failed classes.  They work on "credit recovery software" at their own pace, and they are supervised by a clerical staff member.  It is not particularly a helpful addition to the school, and it has had a particularly negative effect on a few of our students: They prefer sitting in this computer lab clicking away at multiple choice questions 'til they find the right answers . . . over writing papers and discussing things in class.  So some of them actually just sit through the class, intending all along to fail, knowing that they'll get the chance to knock the class out on the computer software.   

Every one of us on the first task force resigned from the process in protest.  Like it did any good. 

What you have described - creative ways to fund and innovate education custom tailored to your specific student body and educational needs - is exactly what my school has done very successfully.  In speaking with the principal, he specifically mentioned "more technology" as being rejected by the school because they already had way too many ipad/ipod/computers (working wifi is another issue...). 

I am sure there are strings attached.  From dealing with the exact same local-state-federal funding very extensively in a different field, I know there are certain strings on some pots of money and different strings on other pots of money.  All I know is that my school benefited big time from the extra funding from all the free/reduced kids attending.  I don't know what happened at your school that blocked a common sense plan to spend the funds efficiently.  I do recall while researching that as you increase the % F/R lunch, there are less strings attached and you can "spread the wealth" more evenly, as long as the plan would still benefit the F/R kids.  What was/is your F/R ratio?  Ours is 80%, so it would be hard to tailor a reasonable program that could avoid benefiting F/R kids at our school. 


Quote
I'm probably biased because I think government pensions tend to retain the worst employees because the best employees leave for greener pastures.  The worst employees are unemployable in the private sector due to poor performance, outdated skills, lack of work ethic or creativity, or some combination of those factors.  This is an ugly, broad generalization

Why would we want a system that encouraged "the best employees" to leave for greener pastures?  If we want government to run well, shouldn't we keep the government pastures green so that those employees will not be tempted to stray?  The pension is one way of keeping pastures green.

Why would the worst employees be retained?  If indeed their performance is poor, their skills are outdated, and so forth, why wouldn't they be fired? 

We don't want a system that encourages the best employees to leave for greener pastures.  That's what I said - pensions do that.  I have heard many times "we underpay you but hey you'll get a sweet pension.  Try getting that on the private side". 

The field I was in had a strong private employment market, and I constantly saw a stream of talent walk out the front door for 20-50% more in salary and frequently better benefits (insurance, 401k match, bonuses, etc).  And an expense account and the ability to spend more than $65 on a hotel when you are stuck traveling for business overnight and away from your family. 

What you are left with are employees that might not commit gross negligence too often, but "highly competent" isn't a title I would generally give them.  But hey, maybe "not committing gross negligence" is good enough for government work? 

+1 on the firing incompetent employees thing.  I've just never seen it happen in practice.  Our school did fire 80% of the faculty when they "rebooted" but those employees mostly found teaching positions elsewhere in the district.  Somebody else's problem, right? 

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3505
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #194 on: November 26, 2013, 10:32:04 AM »
In speaking with the principal, he specifically mentioned "more technology" as being rejected by the school because they already had way too many ipad/ipod/computers (working wifi is another issue...) . . .

I am sure there are strings attached . . . Ours is 80%, so it would be hard to tailor a reasonable program that could avoid benefiting F/R kids at our school. 

We don't want a system that encourages the best employees to leave for greener pastures.  That's what I said - pensions do that. 

employees thing.  I've just never seen it happen in practice.  Our school did fire 80% of the faculty when they "rebooted" but those employees mostly found teaching positions elsewhere in the district.  Somebody else's problem, right?
Well, the technology thing might be easy to explain in that one school might've already had adequate computers, while the other didn't . . . but it wasn't a matter of "strings attached".  It was more like, "We've already decided how we want you to spend this money, and we're going to make you continue to guess /resubmit your plans 'til you happen to select the thing that's in our minds." 

I don't know our free lunch ratio now.  When I was on the task force, I could've given you exact details.  I'm sure it's nowhere near 80%. 

I don't understand the comment about pensions.  Pensions encourage people to STAY in the job, not leave.  A person who works in a job only 3-4 years gets essentially nothing; rather, a person must put in significant years to qualify for a pension.  So that encourages people to STAY.

I've seen teachers (non-teachers) fired from schools. 

I've seen more told, "Look, we're not happy with you, and we're going to start documenting your activities (or lack of activities) with the intention of firing you.  If you leave now, voluntarily, you'll leave without a black mark on your record." 

And I've seen even more people leave because they realize they just don't fit into the teaching profession.  Out of every five brand-new teachers who begin teaching this year, three of them will leave within five years.  That's a statistic that's been kicking around education departments for more than a decade, and it seems to remain relatively stable.  College programs are putting students into classrooms (and having them teach small, maybe 15 minute lessons) earlier in their college careers, and that's a good thing -- it weeds out some who aren't right for the job.  And in teaching -- perhaps all jobs -- having the right personality and the right set of skills is about 70% of success in the job.  You can learn the material for any course, but you cannot learn the right personality. 


grantmeaname

  • CM*MW 2023 Attendees
  • Walrus Stache
  • *
  • Posts: 5988
  • Age: 31
  • Location: Middle West
  • Cast me away from yesterday's things
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #195 on: November 26, 2013, 10:46:23 AM »
I don't understand the comment about pensions.  Pensions encourage people to STAY in the job, not leave.  A person who works in a job only 3-4 years gets essentially nothing; rather, a person must put in significant years to qualify for a pension.  So that encourages people to STAY.
It encourages people to either bail early or stay the remainder of their career; if people don't want to stay their entire career in federal government, it encourages them to bail as soon as possible (or as soon as they give serious thought to retirement).

Mississippi Mudstache

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2174
  • Age: 40
  • Location: Danielsville, GA
    • A Riving Home - Ramblings of a Recusant Woodworker
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #196 on: November 26, 2013, 10:55:56 AM »
I don't understand the comment about pensions.  Pensions encourage people to STAY in the job, not leave.  A person who works in a job only 3-4 years gets essentially nothing; rather, a person must put in significant years to qualify for a pension.  So that encourages people to STAY.
It encourages people to either bail early or stay the remainder of their career; if people don't want to stay their entire career in federal government, it encourages them to bail as soon as possible (or as soon as they give serious thought to retirement).

Yep. I started off as a pensioned faculty member of land grant university. I left after 2.5 years, once I realized that I wasn't interested in spending 30-40 years there. I may have stayed longer, but the fact that I had a pension made it more advantageous to leave as soon as I found another job, which I did.

MrsPete

  • Magnum Stache
  • ******
  • Posts: 3505
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #197 on: November 28, 2013, 09:34:47 PM »
I don't understand the comment about pensions.  Pensions encourage people to STAY in the job, not leave.  A person who works in a job only 3-4 years gets essentially nothing; rather, a person must put in significant years to qualify for a pension.  So that encourages people to STAY.
It encourages people to either bail early or stay the remainder of their career; if people don't want to stay their entire career in federal government, it encourages them to bail as soon as possible (or as soon as they give serious thought to retirement).
Yes, as you've written it, I agree. 

Jobs that include pensions tend to be lower-paying -- it's just the way things work.  It makes no sense to accept the lower-paying job and only stay for, say, 4-5 years.  Doing that is accepting the short end of the stick . . . twice.  You're not being paid well AND you're not staying long enough to get the benefit of the pension. 

Russ

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 2211
  • Age: 33
  • Location: Boulder, CO
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #198 on: November 28, 2013, 09:50:34 PM »
Doing that is accepting the short end of the stick . . . twice.  You're not being paid well AND you're not staying long enough to get the benefit of the pension.

It's recognizing an issue and dealing with it, rather than sticking it out because of sunk cost bias
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs#Loss_aversion_and_the_sunk_cost_fallacy

brewer12345

  • Handlebar Stache
  • *****
  • Posts: 1381
Re: Ethics of ER
« Reply #199 on: November 29, 2013, 08:43:16 AM »
Yes, as you've written it, I agree. 

Jobs that include pensions tend to be lower-paying -- it's just the way things work.  It makes no sense to accept the lower-paying job and only stay for, say, 4-5 years.  Doing that is accepting the short end of the stick . . . twice.  You're not being paid well AND you're not staying long enough to get the benefit of the pension.
[/quote]

I've done exactly that over the past 5 years.  I will hit 5 years of service a week from today and will be giving notice a month later.  When I took this job, it was one of the few available so it was a case of the prettiest horse in the glue factory. However, 18 to 24 months in I could have hopped to a new place for far higher compensation.  If I were contemplating a career of another 20 years, I would have done so with alacrity.  It was clear that the place tended to collect career dullards while the brightest and most ambitious either never showed up or did very short tours of duty. IOW, I saw exactly what RootofGood described.  Consequently, the place does hugely important work that really needs far better talent than what they usually get, but they struggle to attract and retain good people.  I would actually be willing to stick around and help them do what I think is their important work, but there appears to be no way they could make it worth my while.