Author Topic: Ethics at work - stay or go?  (Read 10048 times)

coppertop

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Ethics at work - stay or go?
« on: December 08, 2016, 01:04:17 PM »
What would you do if the big boss at work asked you to do something you considered unethical (but not illegal)?  Would you take it as the catalyst for you to finally FIRE?  Would you hang in there until you got another position?  I am in just this place now.  I don't feel there is anyone here I can trust to go to with the problem, so the only option I have, as I see it, is to leave.  I could FIRE, but I'd feel a bit more comfortable with a little more in the bank.  I am actively seeking positions, but openings in my field don't come up very often.  Thoughts?

NoStacheOhio

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2016, 01:06:37 PM »
How close are you? Could you take a low-stress PT job to cover basic expenses?

tonysemail

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2016, 01:10:17 PM »
can't you just say that you won't do it because of ethics?
I understand that gets people fired, but you have FU money, so what's there to lose?
Maybe they will hand you a severance package on the way out!

AMandM

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2016, 01:15:15 PM »
+1 to Tony.

Then come post on the Epic FU Money Stories thread!


Sarnia Saver

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2016, 01:58:05 PM »
+1 Tony.

Assuming you have a substantial amount of time with this company, they would have to offer a severance, further boosting your FIRE calc. if they fired you without cause. 

Just politely decline the task on grounds that it is against your ethics, and presumably the ethics of the company, tell your boss why you feel the task violates these ethics, and see where that rabbit hole leads you.

SwordGuy

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2016, 02:01:20 PM »
Explain your concerns about the ethics of it.   "How would this be perceived by others if word of this got out?"   

Example: Cook Industries in Memphis Tn was one of the largest grain exporters in the US.  Grain is sold by bulk weight and up to a certain percentage of what is sold can be, by law, "non-grain matter".  That's a euphemism for rat poop, dead rats, etc.   Their quality control system was so good that they had a much, much lower percentage of non-grain matter than allowed by law.

Some bean counter figured out that they were losing money because of this, so they had the janitors sweep stuff from the floors into the grain to get the non-grain matter up to the maximum allowable percentage.  That would mean more profit!

It also meant a hell of a stink once that got into the news...

Here's another example.  This is a photo of a 100% legal action according to the international laws of war:

(I've put a ||||| string into the url to prevent it from showing.  You'll have to go look it up yourself because it's more graphic than a lot of people want to handle.)

It's very famous.  It shows a South Vietnamese officer shooting a North Vietnamese spy/prisoner in the head.   100% legal and correct action.   But that's not how the public received it.   They came away with a totally different opinion.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images ||||| /2014/09/17/blogs/20140917-lens-adams-slide-JXW5/20140917-lens-adams-slide-JXW5-superJumbo.jpg


Make sure they understand that you don't want them to look bad if things don't work out well.

It's much harder for people to get mad at you when you're taking action to protect them.


coppertop

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2016, 02:03:13 PM »
Thanks for the responses - a lot to think about.  I had posted an earlier reply, but don't know where it went - in which I said that I am in a pretty good financial position, and at any rate, I will be old enough next year to take early Social Security, assuming I have not earned $15,000 and change.  This issue will not arise again until early in the New Year, so I am at least going to mull it over during the holidays and will be taking some definite action in January.  I've been here 16 years, but lately some things seem to have taken a turn for the worse. 

Guesl982374

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2016, 02:49:16 PM »
I would be sure when you have this conversation with your boss, you frame the entire conversation around protecting him and the company and not just your personal ethics. If you frame it around your personal ethics it could be perceived that you are calling your boss, directly to his/her face, unethical. Allow him to save face.

AZDude

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2016, 03:47:34 PM »
can't you just say that you won't do it because of ethics?
I understand that gets people fired, but you have FU money, so what's there to lose?
Maybe they will hand you a severance package on the way out!

I agree. Tell the boss no, not just because of the FU money, but because you are a person with integrity.

Boss once asked me to fudge some numbers. I refused. I did not get fired and the boss eventually relented. In a career full of job hopping and burned bridges, that was definitely one of my finer moments.

Livingthedream55

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2016, 06:41:58 AM »
I would be sure when you have this conversation with your boss, you frame the entire conversation around protecting him and the company and not just your personal ethics. If you frame it around your personal ethics it could be perceived that you are calling your boss, directly to his/her face, unethical. Allow him to save face.

This is good. Statements along the line of: "I'm not comfortable because I think it places the company at risk." "I see a lot of downside to this. I think this would be perceived as coming dangerously close to a line I am not comfortable in crossing."  Make it about your anxiety and your desire to protect him and the company. Offer to think of a more ethical way to achieve the desired result.

This way if you get fired so be it. At least you didn't leave unnecessarily (before exploring this as an option.) Bosses have a way of creatively solving problems when an employee says no. Not your problem to worry about.

Uturn

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2016, 07:44:27 AM »
This topic falls in line with my theory that money can either buy you stuff, or buy you freedom.  One of those freedoms is not being forced to do something that goes against your ethics just to keep a paycheck.   

About six years ago I was in this very situation.  I didn't have retirement money, but enough of a cash cushion that I could ride out a period of unemployment if needed.  My boss asked that I do something not illegal, but went against my integrity.  I told him no, I'm not doing that because.....  He reminded me that my contract was easily cancelled.  I told him that is sounds like he has a decision to make, and left his office.  Nothing else was ever said about it, and I was hired full time a few months later. 

Chris22

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2016, 07:48:02 AM »
Hard to say, but how black and white of an issue is this, and how sure are you that you have all the facts?  A company I used to work for did some very aggressive interpretations of the financial rules.  New low-level guy comes in, starts tossing around words like fraud and such in emails.  He got a very quick sit down with some very high level guys, including our auditors, that no, what we're doing is inside the letter of the law, legal and outside auditors had signed off on it etc, and if you don't like it feel free to hit the road but this is a subject that's been decided. 

So just make sure this is something you know all about and can confidently confirm you have all the facts before you throw anyone, including yourself, under the bus. 

Is there a high level person elsewhere in the organization you can have a frank conversation with?  Or is there an ethics hotline you can call to discuss the matter?

coppertop

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2016, 10:10:56 AM »
What he is doing is something that benefits himself and his family and has a negative effect on others in the organization. In short, it's cheating someone. However, I don't really trust any of them.  I wouldn't put it past anyone to think it's okay because he might want to do it himself some time.  There's no one to whom I feel I can safely go with my concerns.  I am quite sure that what he is doing is not illegal, but is definitely unethical.  And at any rate, it goes way against my own sense of fair play and what is right, and in the end, that is all that matters. 

AZDude

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2016, 10:34:22 AM »
I would be sure when you have this conversation with your boss, you frame the entire conversation around protecting him and the company and not just your personal ethics. If you frame it around your personal ethics it could be perceived that you are calling your boss, directly to his/her face, unethical. Allow him to save face.

This is good. Statements along the line of: "I'm not comfortable because I think it places the company at risk." "I see a lot of downside to this. I think this would be perceived as coming dangerously close to a line I am not comfortable in crossing."  Make it about your anxiety and your desire to protect him and the company. Offer to think of a more ethical way to achieve the desired result.

This way if you get fired so be it. At least you didn't leave unnecessarily (before exploring this as an option.) Bosses have a way of creatively solving problems when an employee says no. Not your problem to worry about.

No. I disagree completely. This is one of those times when a person needs to just say "No, that is unethical and I am not doing it".

gaja

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2016, 10:49:55 AM »
I've been there. A headmaster wanted me to accept that a student cheated. It was a private school, so they could risk loosing money if they gave the students bad grades. I gave notice the next day (after clearing it with the husband), and had a new job before the month ended.

Guesl982374

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2016, 12:10:24 PM »
I would be sure when you have this conversation with your boss, you frame the entire conversation around protecting him and the company and not just your personal ethics. If you frame it around your personal ethics it could be perceived that you are calling your boss, directly to his/her face, unethical. Allow him to save face.

This is good. Statements along the line of: "I'm not comfortable because I think it places the company at risk." "I see a lot of downside to this. I think this would be perceived as coming dangerously close to a line I am not comfortable in crossing."  Make it about your anxiety and your desire to protect him and the company. Offer to think of a more ethical way to achieve the desired result.

This way if you get fired so be it. At least you didn't leave unnecessarily (before exploring this as an option.) Bosses have a way of creatively solving problems when an employee says no. Not your problem to worry about.

No. I disagree completely. This is one of those times when a person needs to just say "No, that is unethical and I am not doing it".

In an ideal world, I agree. A person should stand for what they believe in at all times. Its one of the reasons I think everyone should try for FU or FI money so they can do it. With that being said, humans are highly emotional creatures. If the OP wants to keep his/her job and change his/her boss' mind, then they 100% need to put themselves in their boss' shoes. Why is the boss requesting a (borderline?) unethical action? What's driving the request? Does the boss even realize that its unethical? Does the boss realize the potential consequences?

The OP should NOT paint their boss into a corner immediately and come across as accusing the boss of being unethical. If after putting the issue in context of protecting the boss & company, the boss keeps pushing for the unethical option, then I agree the OP should stand up for him/herself and say what you've suggested.

Catbert

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2016, 05:52:14 PM »
Thanks for the responses - a lot to think about.  I had posted an earlier reply, but don't know where it went - in which I said that I am in a pretty good financial position, and at any rate, I will be old enough next year to take early Social Security, assuming I have not earned $15,000 and change. This issue will not arise again until early in the New Year, so I am at least going to mull it over during the holidays and will be taking some definite action in January.  I've been here 16 years, but lately some things seem to have taken a turn for the worse.

I realize this isn't your current issue.  During the first calendar year you collect SS the earned income limit is computed on a monthly basis.  So you could make 100K in January and collect your full SS for the remaining 11 months.  Only applies the first calendar year you retire.

Kakashi

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2016, 07:53:42 PM »
Way too vague.  There's too many variables to consider:
- How much are you making?
- How much do you like your current job?
- What is the actual "unethical" request?
- Do you see the request on a one time thin or an ongoing thing?

I don't think you are ready to FIRE.  The fact that you are out looking for other jobs says you are not mentally ready.  So the real question is "what are you jeopardizing if you turn down the request?" 

MauiNut

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2016, 10:16:01 AM »
My MegaCorp has an "Ethics Hotline" whereby employees can supposedly anonymously report professional ethics violations.  "Supposedly", because I've never had to use it.  Maybe you have the same resource?

Josiecat

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2016, 12:00:32 PM »
I would tell boss that you're not comfortable doing that, so therefore you won't.  At the same time immediately start looking for another job.

RedmondStash

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2016, 03:40:45 PM »
You've already got a lot of great responses. My one addition would be to recommend documenting everything: the request, the date and time it happened, the names of the people who made the request or knew about it, etc. Keep this documentation at home, not at work.

You'll probably never need it, but just in case you say no and there is some form of retribution, you'll have it to help protect yourself.

BlueHouse

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2016, 05:16:01 PM »
I have found that people don't want others to think they are unethical, and rather than trying to convince you that it is legal or ethically sound, they tend to put the objector on the defensive, asking what makes it unethical.  No matter what your answer, you'll hear an objection until it becomes just plain uncomfortable. 

I wouldn't make any accusations, but I would firmly hold my ground and say "I'm not comfortable doing this".  You've finished explaining your reasons and if the boss is going to insist, he'll have to provide more information (which puts him in the hot seat).  Just keep repeating "I'm not comfortable" or "It just doesn't seem like the right thing to do". 

I used this last month and it was extremely uncomfortable as I was challenged and when I finished up with "I'm just not comfortable doing this" and then kept my mouth shut, it was clear that the requestor would not insist and couldn't justify the ask.  You must be willing to be quiet the longest. 

Good luck!  You're ready for this financially and it will make you feel so strong once you stand up to it!

coppertop

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2016, 12:01:00 PM »
I work for a small business where the owners are also the bosses.  The man wanting me to do the thing that makes me uncomfortable owns one of the largest shares.  Any contest between him and me will definitely not come out in my favor.  What he wants me to do enhances the position, both financially and hierarchically, of a member of his family while at the same time, putting that person automatically in a much better position than his peers.  I hope that makes sense.  I am being cryptic for my own protection.  I am definitely ready to retire emotionally.  I had just hoped to have a bit more money socked away before I took the plunge. 

AZDude

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2016, 12:27:28 PM »
Tell the owner to have sex with himself, then get a P/T job to help supplement your income. Enjoy your semi-retirement.

coppertop

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2016, 09:13:23 AM »
That is the way I am leaning.  I don't want to do anything until the new year starts.  I am owed a holiday bonus that I have worked hard for all year and don't want to jeopardize it in any way. 

Mossy 757

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2016, 09:23:01 AM »
Keep in mind that if you need to go looking for another job, quitting over a disagreement about ethics can be a sticky topic when interviewing.

"Why did you leave your last role without another job lined up?"

"My old boss is an unethical prick and I'd rather walk than violate my own personal code of conduct."

^ it's a coin flip if a new employer will value that honesty and integrity OR run terrified because they think you'll be a huge problem for them if hired.

There are more artful ways to address that topic during an interview, but if they also call your old boss for a reference check, the truth will somehow come out (unless there is a policy against discussing former employees).

Proud Foot

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2016, 09:47:18 AM »
I work for a small business where the owners are also the bosses.  The man wanting me to do the thing that makes me uncomfortable owns one of the largest shares.  Any contest between him and me will definitely not come out in my favor.  What he wants me to do enhances the position, both financially and hierarchically, of a member of his family while at the same time, putting that person automatically in a much better position than his peers.  I hope that makes sense.  I am being cryptic for my own protection.  I am definitely ready to retire emotionally.  I had just hoped to have a bit more money socked away before I took the plunge.

It sounds like you already have a good plan of action.  Does the company you work for have a board and did the board approve these changes?  It might not make a difference for you, but for me I might have less objections if it were approved by the board rather than this individual acting alone to make this change.

coppertop

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2016, 08:24:50 AM »
When I told him I would prefer to have documentation and let him know I was uncomfortable with what he wanted me to do, he told me not to tell anyone ... so that kind of tells me that he knows what he wants is not the right thing to do. I believe that his co-owners would not like what he is doing, but that if push came to shove, they would support him and his money and name and no one would have my back at all.  His name is on the letterhead, and that name enjoys a great reputation around here.  This is a small town.  I would not be the first person to get screwed over around here.  I'd rather walk with my head held high and on my own terms. 

RedmondStash

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2016, 09:02:35 AM »
When I told him I would prefer to have documentation and let him know I was uncomfortable with what he wanted me to do, he told me not to tell anyone ... so that kind of tells me that he knows what he wants is not the right thing to do. I believe that his co-owners would not like what he is doing, but that if push came to shove, they would support him and his money and name and no one would have my back at all.  His name is on the letterhead, and that name enjoys a great reputation around here.  This is a small town.  I would not be the first person to get screwed over around here.  I'd rather walk with my head held high and on my own terms.

Did you quit? Or do you still work there? Either way, it sounds like you stood your ground. Good for you.

tonysemail

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #29 on: December 14, 2016, 10:21:04 AM »
Congrats coppertop!
I bet it feels nice to stand your ground.
This guy can get someone else to do his dirty work.
You're FI (or almost there) and don't need to take this crap!

coppertop

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2016, 10:48:36 AM »
I haven't quit yet, but plan to do so immediately after the New Year.  I have worked hard for my year-end bonus and intend to collect it. 

SKL-HOU

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2016, 11:13:25 AM »
After you get your bonus, tell him no you will not do what he wants and explain your reason. If he fires you over it, then you can potentially collect unemployment and you had planned to quit anyway. Then get a PT job to supplement your savings/SS.

coppertop

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2016, 11:24:53 AM »
Thanks, everyone, for your support and great advice.  It's hard to feel you are alone with nobody you can trust to confide in. 

BlueHouse

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2016, 11:28:40 AM »
There's another way to handle it too.  Just don't do it.  Just nod non-committally and never get around to it.  I've used procrastination in the past too and when push comes to shove, they can't really fire you for the reason if they're not willing to go on record for what that reason is. 

But it sounds like you're in a good spot right now and you can come out of this smelling like roses.  Thank you Coppertop for having ethics and keeping them.  This is so rare in today's world. 

Guesl982374

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2016, 11:44:30 AM »
I work for a small business where the owners are also the bosses.  The man wanting me to do the thing that makes me uncomfortable owns one of the largest shares.  Any contest between him and me will definitely not come out in my favor.  What he wants me to do enhances the position, both financially and hierarchically, of a member of his family while at the same time, putting that person automatically in a much better position than his peers.  I hope that makes sense.  I am being cryptic for my own protection.  I am definitely ready to retire emotionally.  I had just hoped to have a bit more money socked away before I took the plunge.

Please don't take this as questioning your decision to leave as I realize the collective we (the internet) do not know the entire story:

If the majority owner of the business that also bears his name wants you to change an internal position for a member of his family, how is there an ethical concern? I guess I just don't see it / don't have the whole story. There are lots of privately owned businesses in the world where nepotism takes place. You don't have to like it as a 'non-family member' but it is his legal right to run his organization as he sees fit.

AZDude

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2016, 01:31:37 PM »
Keep in mind that if you need to go looking for another job, quitting over a disagreement about ethics can be a sticky topic when interviewing.

"Why did you leave your last role without another job lined up?"

"My old boss is an unethical prick and I'd rather walk than violate my own personal code of conduct."

^ it's a coin flip if a new employer will value that honesty and integrity OR run terrified because they think you'll be a huge problem for them if hired.

There are more artful ways to address that topic during an interview, but if they also call your old boss for a reference check, the truth will somehow come out (unless there is a policy against discussing former employees).

True, but as someone who has had... 10 different employers since 2005, I don't think it is as big of a deal as it used to be. Especially if you have some good references.

coppertop

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2016, 01:39:20 PM »
I work for a small business where the owners are also the bosses.  The man wanting me to do the thing that makes me uncomfortable owns one of the largest shares.  Any contest between him and me will definitely not come out in my favor.  What he wants me to do enhances the position, both financially and hierarchically, of a member of his family while at the same time, putting that person automatically in a much better position than his peers.  I hope that makes sense.  I am being cryptic for my own protection.  I am definitely ready to retire emotionally.  I had just hoped to have a bit more money socked away before I took the plunge.

Please don't take this as questioning your decision to leave as I realize the collective we (the internet) do not know the entire story:

If the majority owner of the business that also bears his name wants you to change an internal position for a member of his family, how is there an ethical concern? I guess I just don't see it / don't have the whole story. There are lots of privately owned businesses in the world where nepotism takes place. You don't have to like it as a 'non-family member' but it is his legal right to run his organization as he sees fit.

Because although he does own a large chunk of the business, he is not the biggest nor the only shareholder, and he and his family are not the only people impacted by this.  And remember he told me not to tell anyone else about it, because he knows that he is cheating other people with what he wants to do.  One of the other shareholders once referred to this guy's "legerdemain."  They all seem to know what he is capable of, but not necessarily willing to confront him about it. 

Livingthedream55

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2017, 02:00:57 PM »
OP - Thinking about you and hoping all is well. Did you quit?

Hope you got your bonus.

SuperMex

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2017, 02:32:37 PM »
When I told him I would prefer to have documentation and let him know I was uncomfortable with what he wanted me to do, he told me not to tell anyone ... so that kind of tells me that he knows what he wants is not the right thing to do. I believe that his co-owners would not like what he is doing, but that if push came to shove, they would support him and his money and name and no one would have my back at all.  His name is on the letterhead, and that name enjoys a great reputation around here.  This is a small town.  I would not be the first person to get screwed over around here.  I'd rather walk with my head held high and on my own terms.

I would just be honest with him at this time. Let him know you are concerned he may try to fire you based on your unwillingness to compromise your integrity. Let him know you want his word that this is in the past and you are willing to keep your mouth shut and forget about it if he is as well. At this point you have turned this into a situation where you are his confidant, he can't fire you because he would worry you may rat him out. Document it all and it may even get you a little bonus in the end.

coppertop

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #39 on: April 05, 2017, 12:30:28 PM »
Just realized I had replies I had not seen.  I discussed this with my direct boss and the situation has not recurred ... yet.  He was appalled and said he was glad I told him.  They are equals in the organization.  However, I am making firm plans to retire on the last day of work before the Christmas break.  I normally have to work Christmas week, and last year it meant I could not see one of my children for the holidays because our schedules did not mesh. I do not want that to happen again, and there is no financial reward for me working when most other people are off.  I will be 62 in September.  Plan to start collecting SS in January of 2018, as well as a small pension.  Working this extra year means another $24,000 plus the firm contribution in my retirement account, so while I hate this job and really want to be finished with it once and for all, I think the best thing for us is if I hang in there for nine more months. 

TreesBikesLove

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2017, 01:39:44 PM »
Thanks for the update. Seems you fell for the One More Year syndrome and nobody can blame you as long as you are OK with your decision. I'm glad you were able to avoid performing a job duty that you believed to be unethical.

coppertop

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Re: Ethics at work - stay or go?
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2017, 10:59:38 AM »
I do get nervous when contemplating losing the security of that steady paycheck.  That having been said, there is a lot more to life than working for people who do not appreciate you, and the stress of this job is not good for me either emotionally or physically, so I know I have to cut the cord this year for certain.  Life is just too short. 

 

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