Epic FU money stories

[SwordGuy]

That boss of yours was doing you a solid and he knew it. I hoped you called him up and thanked him.

Nah, he really wasn't, it was just his fastest/only option.  The reason I was so miserable at that job was because of him and his lack of ethics.  He would tell the sales people to promise customers features our product didn't do, nor would ever do.  Then when they bought and came to me to help them get it set up, and would ask about these features, I'd say 'no it doesn't do that'.  He started getting mad at all the return requests and told me 'you have to string them along until the 30-day money back guarantee is past'.  'Umm, yea I'm not doing that'.  That's when I decided I needed to figure out how to get out.

Sociopaths like that are the reason we can't trust businesses with public safety.   It's why we need safety regulations and regulators who work for the public.

[jinga nation]

That boss of yours was doing you a solid and he knew it. I hoped you called him up and thanked him.

Nah, he really wasn't, it was just his fastest/only option.  The reason I was so miserable at that job was because of him and his lack of ethics.  He would tell the sales people to promise customers features our product didn't do, nor would ever do.  Then when they bought and came to me to help them get it set up, and would ask about these features, I'd say 'no it doesn't do that'.  He started getting mad at all the return requests and told me 'you have to string them along until the 30-day money back guarantee is past'.  'Umm, yea I'm not doing that'.  That's when I decided I needed to figure out how to get out.

Sociopaths like that are the reason we can't trust businesses with public safety.   It's why we need safety regulations and regulators who work for the public.

I was lucky I had this situation early in my engineering career. When the company owner made incredulous promises to customers, and my engineering manager and team leads protested, her first task was to fire the engineering manager. Her second task was to corral the SW/HW/Mech engineers in a conference room and instruct us "how to engineer" (she had no technical education or experience). Her third task was to bring in a new engineering manager, a bitch of a bulldog. Finally all "non-compliant" engineers were laid-off in waves. These were the people who billed to contracts and performed the design HW/Mech design and wrote code. I was laid off in the second wave, in the middle of a final design review of my work. That Friday's happy hour, we were literally discussing who was going to do the work since there wasn't anyone competent left in the building. Literally 90-95% of the real talent had been dismissed over the 2 layoffs.
One co-worker, previously a Kodak lifer, who was also laid off, told me there was a silver lining. When Upper Management makes false promises which are technically unrealistic or impossible, and starts threatening our jobs, it's time to look elsewhere ASAP. This advice served me well 3.5 years later, when I saw warning signs, gave a heads-up to my closest co-workers (we played soccer after work twice a week), found an opportunity, and skipped town. Heard a couple of months later they had layoffs, and the middle-level younger engineers (28-40) were laid off. They kept the cheap young inexperienced engineers and the old fogeys who hated training new talent. 6Sigma/MBA-level decisions had frightening repercussions on deliverables to Space & Defense customers. Penalties were incurred.
It also spurred me to be better at everything I do, make a small career switch, get FI, have my FU stash, and work for a company where I'm valued. In the 2 comma club. Job could go away tomorrow and my family will be fine.

[Taran Wanderer]

That boss of yours was doing you a solid and he knew it. I hoped you called him up and thanked him.

Nah, he really wasn't, it was just his fastest/only option.  The reason I was so miserable at that job was because of him and his lack of ethics.  He would tell the sales people to promise customers features our product didn't do, nor would ever do.  Then when they bought and came to me to help them get it set up, and would ask about these features, I'd say 'no it doesn't do that'.  He started getting mad at all the return requests and told me 'you have to string them along until the 30-day money back guarantee is past'.  'Umm, yea I'm not doing that'.  That's when I decided I needed to figure out how to get out.

I really don’t understand why this sort of behavior can’t be criminally prosecuted as fraud.

[former player]

That boss of yours was doing you a solid and he knew it. I hoped you called him up and thanked him.

Nah, he really wasn't, it was just his fastest/only option.  The reason I was so miserable at that job was because of him and his lack of ethics.  He would tell the sales people to promise customers features our product didn't do, nor would ever do.  Then when they bought and came to me to help them get it set up, and would ask about these features, I'd say 'no it doesn't do that'.  He started getting mad at all the return requests and told me 'you have to string them along until the 30-day money back guarantee is past'.  'Umm, yea I'm not doing that'.  That's when I decided I needed to figure out how to get out.

I really don’t understand why this sort of behavior can’t be criminally prosecuted as fraud.

It would clog up the courts too much?

[jinga nation]

That boss of yours was doing you a solid and he knew it. I hoped you called him up and thanked him.

Nah, he really wasn't, it was just his fastest/only option.  The reason I was so miserable at that job was because of him and his lack of ethics.  He would tell the sales people to promise customers features our product didn't do, nor would ever do.  Then when they bought and came to me to help them get it set up, and would ask about these features, I'd say 'no it doesn't do that'.  He started getting mad at all the return requests and told me 'you have to string them along until the 30-day money back guarantee is past'.  'Umm, yea I'm not doing that'.  That's when I decided I needed to figure out how to get out.

I really don’t understand why this sort of behavior can’t be criminally prosecuted as fraud.

It would clog up the courts too much?

also the onus is on the employee to collect evidence and prove it. and whistleblowers don't get protected despite the law.
easier to say "fuck it, I quit" than to stay and prove it wrong. there's no financial gain to be made by employee.

[Taran Wanderer]

Even whistleblower activity generally results in only civil remedies In cases like these. I’m suggesting that this is criminal behavior that should be prosecuted as theft or fraud. It would be in the interest of the cheated customers to pursue criminal charges.

Court capacity is a different (but clearly related) issue. That said, we seem to always have court capacity for low level criminal theft, but why don’t we create that capacity for large scale fraud, theft, and corruption? The answer will likely take us further off topic, so no need for answers. Consider it rhetorical.

[bbqbonelesswing]

Even whistleblower activity generally results in only civil remedies In cases like these. I’m suggesting that this is criminal behavior that should be prosecuted as theft or fraud. It would be in the interest of the cheated customers to pursue criminal charges.

Court capacity is a different (but clearly related) issue. That said, we seem to always have court capacity for low level criminal theft, but why don’t we create that capacity for large scale fraud, theft, and corruption? The answer will likely take us further off topic, so no need for answers. Consider it rhetorical.

In my experience (post-sales), the lame salespeople who do this will usually oversell juuust enough so the customer can still use the product, and be 90% happy, but be annoyed a few things are missing. Ie you'll hear a lot of customers saying things like "Salesman Bob told us feature X was on the way later this year- can't wait for it to be ready!" and have to walk it back. I've never seen such a big disaster that we had to go to court or anything like that.

[SwordGuy]

Even whistleblower activity generally results in only civil remedies In cases like these. I’m suggesting that this is criminal behavior that should be prosecuted as theft or fraud. It would be in the interest of the cheated customers to pursue criminal charges.

Court capacity is a different (but clearly related) issue. That said, we seem to always have court capacity for low level criminal theft, but why don’t we create that capacity for large scale fraud, theft, and corruption? The answer will likely take us further off topic, so no need for answers. Consider it rhetorical.

The same reason it's criminal theft when an employee takes an employer's stuff (enforced by tax-payer funded police, district attorneys, jails and courts) but it's a civil matter when an employer steals wages from an employee (enforced by employee-funded investigators and attorneys).   Because those who have the gold make the rules.

[blurkraken22]

That boss of yours was doing you a solid and he knew it. I hoped you called him up and thanked him.

Nah, he really wasn't, it was just his fastest/only option.  The reason I was so miserable at that job was because of him and his lack of ethics.  He would tell the sales people to promise customers features our product didn't do, nor would ever do.  Then when they bought and came to me to help them get it set up, and would ask about these features, I'd say 'no it doesn't do that'.  He started getting mad at all the return requests and told me 'you have to string them along until the 30-day money back guarantee is past'.  'Umm, yea I'm not doing that'.  That's when I decided I needed to figure out how to get out.

Well that's ironic! He did what a good boss would offer to do for an employee they liked.

On the ehhiics side, I'm in the software industry (B2B) and that kind of overselling is common enough without being intentional. I'm glad you were able to make a stand and get out and I really hope that guy lost all his customers and then his job .

[Montecarlo]

My wife told me a story that a coworker was assigned to be a member of the safety team as as collateral responsibility.  The coworker didn’t respond when told.  He just turned around, went to his boss, and threatened to quit.

Wondering if he is here on this thread?

[SwordGuy]

My boss once came to me and said he had ordered pagers for me and for those programmers who reported to me.  (Yep, that long ago, I'm that old!)

That would be a total waste of our time because our software worked.   The network was unreliable and we would spend our off hours trying to track down network people.    Screw that!

I looked him in the eye and said, calmly and slowly, "When I and my programmers write such bad code that we require pagers, **I** will find another line of work."

I never saw those damn pagers.

[dandarc]

Wow - I'd venture a guess you weren't doing government contract work @SwordGuy. Or this might have been back when there was adequate supply of fairly good programmers to meet the demand (because of the low demand - the supply was severely limited I'm sure, but we didn't always have platforms that made everyone with 2 weeks of downtime and $1,000 to become a "coder"), and stuff like quality was valued over meeting the deadline.

[RyanAtTanagra]

That boss of yours was doing you a solid and he knew it. I hoped you called him up and thanked him.

Nah, he really wasn't, it was just his fastest/only option.  The reason I was so miserable at that job was because of him and his lack of ethics.  He would tell the sales people to promise customers features our product didn't do, nor would ever do.  Then when they bought and came to me to help them get it set up, and would ask about these features, I'd say 'no it doesn't do that'.  He started getting mad at all the return requests and told me 'you have to string them along until the 30-day money back guarantee is past'.  'Umm, yea I'm not doing that'.  That's when I decided I needed to figure out how to get out.

Well that's ironic! He did what a good boss would offer to do for an employee they liked.

On the ehhiics side, I'm in the software industry (B2B) and that kind of overselling is common enough without being intentional. I'm glad you were able to make a stand and get out and I really hope that guy lost all his customers and then his job .

If was the owner, but yea, basically :-)   It was a software company, and from what I heard, after I left all that shit got worse and not too long after that they went out of business.  Double slap in the face to the owner I'm sure, because at some point while I was working there, when things were going well, he had a buyout offer that would have set him up for life, and he refused it because he had dollar signs in his eyes on where he could take the company.  Couple lessons to anyone that starts a company: 1) the person that can start a successful company from the bottom isn't the same person that can take it to the next level.  Don't be arrogant, and 2) if you get an offer that can make you FI, take it and just start another endeavor without the worries of needing to succeed and sustain your family.

[Dicey]

That boss of yours was doing you a solid and he knew it. I hoped you called him up and thanked him.

Nah, he really wasn't, it was just his fastest/only option.  The reason I was so miserable at that job was because of him and his lack of ethics.  He would tell the sales people to promise customers features our product didn't do, nor would ever do.  Then when they bought and came to me to help them get it set up, and would ask about these features, I'd say 'no it doesn't do that'.  He started getting mad at all the return requests and told me 'you have to string them along until the 30-day money back guarantee is past'.  'Umm, yea I'm not doing that'.  That's when I decided I needed to figure out how to get out.

Well that's ironic! He did what a good boss would offer to do for an employee they liked.

On the ehhiics side, I'm in the software industry (B2B) and that kind of overselling is common enough without being intentional. I'm glad you were able to make a stand and get out and I really hope that guy lost all his customers and then his job .

If was the owner, but yea, basically :-)   It was a software company, and from what I heard, after I left all that shit got worse and not too long after that they went out of business.  Double slap in the face to the owner I'm sure, because at some point while I was working there, when things were going well, he had a buyout offer that would have set him up for life, and he refused it because he had dollar signs in his eyes on where he could take the company.  Couple lessons to anyone that starts a company: 1) the person that can start a successful company from the bottom isn't the same person that can take it to the next level.  Don't be arrogant, and 2) if you get an offer that can make you FI, take it and just start another endeavor without the worries of needing to succeed and sustain your family.

Any idea what he's doing now?

[RyanAtTanagra]

That boss of yours was doing you a solid and he knew it. I hoped you called him up and thanked him.

Nah, he really wasn't, it was just his fastest/only option.  The reason I was so miserable at that job was because of him and his lack of ethics.  He would tell the sales people to promise customers features our product didn't do, nor would ever do.  Then when they bought and came to me to help them get it set up, and would ask about these features, I'd say 'no it doesn't do that'.  He started getting mad at all the return requests and told me 'you have to string them along until the 30-day money back guarantee is past'.  'Umm, yea I'm not doing that'.  That's when I decided I needed to figure out how to get out.

Well that's ironic! He did what a good boss would offer to do for an employee they liked.

On the ehhiics side, I'm in the software industry (B2B) and that kind of overselling is common enough without being intentional. I'm glad you were able to make a stand and get out and I really hope that guy lost all his customers and then his job .

If was the owner, but yea, basically :-)   It was a software company, and from what I heard, after I left all that shit got worse and not too long after that they went out of business.  Double slap in the face to the owner I'm sure, because at some point while I was working there, when things were going well, he had a buyout offer that would have set him up for life, and he refused it because he had dollar signs in his eyes on where he could take the company.  Couple lessons to anyone that starts a company: 1) the person that can start a successful company from the bottom isn't the same person that can take it to the next level.  Don't be arrogant, and 2) if you get an offer that can make you FI, take it and just start another endeavor without the worries of needing to succeed and sustain your family.

Any idea what he's doing now?

Hah, man I haven't even thought about wondering about that.  Had to look him up.  Looks like he became a business consultant for security/tech companies, and might currently be a C-level at a local tech security company.  So that's about as expected.

[Model96]

Remember, there's only 2 industries that call their customers 'users'.....IT and Illegal drugs! LoL

[2sk22]

My boss once came to me and said he had ordered pagers for me and for those programmers who reported to me.  (Yep, that long ago, I'm that old!)

That would be a total waste of our time because our software worked.   The network was unreliable and we would spend our off hours trying to track down network people.    Screw that!

I looked him in the eye and said, calmly and slowly, "When I and my programmers write such bad code that we require pagers, **I** will find another line of work."

I never saw those damn pagers.

I have a similar story except I wish I had responded like you did! Back in the early 90s, at my first job, I was the only one who knew how to debug a complex piece of experimental equipment. I had a long commute so I was given a company cell phone (the size of a briefcase) to keep in the car so I could be reached while on the road. Initially, I felt flattered that I was so important as to warrant being given a cell phone. But I soon found out that it meant that people in the office could reach me at all hours - gah! Never again did I accept such off-hours responsibilities in my career :-)

[SwordGuy]

Wow - I'd venture a guess you weren't doing government contract work @SwordGuy. Or this might have been back when there was adequate supply of fairly good programmers to meet the demand (because of the low demand - the supply was severely limited I'm sure, but we didn't always have platforms that made everyone with 2 weeks of downtime and $1,000 to become a "coder"), and stuff like quality was valued over meeting the deadline.

It was back when pagers were in use, not cellphones. :)   So yes, this was back in the day.

And it certainly wasn't government contract work, I've done that too.   That's a totally different work environment than working in private industry.

I was just damn good at my job, I had good programmers working for me and I made sure folks used good methods and techniques so our quality was high and our delivery times were decent.   95% of our programming effort went into producing new functionality, 5% went into dealing with issues that cropped up -- and most of that was in one 3rd party software package.

And, equally important, my boss knew I was damn good at my job.  He wasn't likely to get that kind of results from my replacement.   

FWIW, I've never seen a surplus of really good programmers in my industry.    Or even competent ones.   And I've been working in the industry since 1982.   

[bluebelle]

Wow - I'd venture a guess you weren't doing government contract work @SwordGuy. Or this might have been back when there was adequate supply of fairly good programmers to meet the demand (because of the low demand - the supply was severely limited I'm sure, but we didn't always have platforms that made everyone with 2 weeks of downtime and $1,000 to become a "coder"), and stuff like quality was valued over meeting the deadline.

It was back when pagers were in use, not cellphones. :)   So yes, this was back in the day.

And it certainly wasn't government contract work, I've done that too.   That's a totally different work environment than working in private industry.

I was just damn good at my job, I had good programmers working for me and I made sure folks used good methods and techniques so our quality was high and our delivery times were decent.   95% of our programming effort went into producing new functionality, 5% went into dealing with issues that cropped up -- and most of that was in one 3rd party software package.

And, equally important, my boss knew I was damn good at my job.  He wasn't likely to get that kind of results from my replacement.   

FWIW, I've never seen a surplus of really good programmers in my industry.    Or even competent ones.   And I've been working in the industry since 1982.

and this was why I ended up on call...........fixing other's  incompetence.....all too common a theme

[dandarc]

Good programmer - key skills have nothing to do with technology really.

Observant enough to see when code you wrote didn't work quite right. Tenacious enough to figure it out. Diplomatic enough to not get yourself fired. Secure enough to ask the questions to get clear on what they want before you start writing your code.

[techwiz]

Good programmer - key skills have nothing to do with technology really.

Observant enough to see when code you wrote didn't work quite right. Tenacious enough to figure it out. Diplomatic enough to not get yourself fired. Secure enough to ask the questions to get clear on what they want before you start writing your code.

If we knew want they want before starting to code(and that didn't change) it would be too easy.  Working in the government with many changes to the policies/politics on the fly,  ends up making programs so illogical and complex over the years even with good programmers it's a challenge.   

[jinga nation]

Remember, there's only 2 industries that call their customers 'users'.....IT and Illegal drugs! LoL

And in both, never consume your product.
Drug dealers are just Value-Added Resellers. They offer complementary and complimentary add-ons.

[dandarc]

Good programmer - key skills have nothing to do with technology really.

Observant enough to see when code you wrote didn't work quite right. Tenacious enough to figure it out. Diplomatic enough to not get yourself fired. Secure enough to ask the questions to get clear on what they want before you start writing your code.

If we knew want they want before starting to code(and that didn't change) it would be too easy.  Working in the government with many changes to the policies/politics on the fly,  ends up making programs so illogical and complex over the years even with good programmers it's a challenge.   

Trust me I know . . . but I'd characterize most of the problems I see as "bad programming" and not the fault of changing regulations.

[blurkraken22]

I was so excited when I found this thread that I immediately wrote up an old story to share. That was five days ago. Since then I've managed to read about 20% of the thread (up to page 13).

I'm feeling therapized!

I've had a troublesome run in my current position over the past two years, first working under a manager who meant well, then absorbing a number of his responsibilities, then being rejected when I was stupid enough to apply for his job when he left. Eventually it all adds up to another FU story, but I have not reached the end of it and I probably don't have the perspective to write it up well just yet. My main lesson for the summer is HR always sides with management.

My question for today: why should I put in the effort to be honest in my exit survey? It's not (yet) an interview, they have a long-ass survey I'm meant to fill out on the HR portal. Should I tell them where I will work next? Surely I have no obligation to do that. But more importantly, is there any reason for me to spend time explaining their problems that they should already know about?

My supervisor was in his role for about 4 years. He had been there and proven himself incompetent for so long that people actually apologized to me about it when I arrived. He was there for another 1.5 years before moving to another role. The higher-ups kept talking about how the company had failed him. WTF!? Failed him? What about the 10-12 people who have to report to him?

[Aside: He's really an OK guy, but somehow completely incapable of making a decent decision as a manager of people. He always tried to find the one most important factor in every situation and would then make a one-factor decision based on that. I can see how that strategy could work wonders in some scenarios, but it rarely worked for what we do. He was also deeply cynical about people and their motivations. He tried not to show it, but inside, he really thinks people will take everything they can get away with and slack off as much as possible. I feel sad, because I don't think anyone could become a leader starting from that kind of belief system. Anyway, much to Mrs. BK's consternation, I do not blame him for this situation. He reached his Peter Principle job and was smart enough to walk away from it after 4 years of professional suffering.]

At a personal-level, the culture is pretty respectful here, which I'm thankful for. But the bureaucracy shows otherwise clearly. If the rules you have in place institutionalize a process of treating people like you cannot trust them, the message gets through.

A fairly simple message to corporate leadership: if you're spending a lot time time repeating "we value our employees" it's most likely because you have not done the things that would SHOW you value your employees.

BUT, back to the base question, is there any reason I should try to share this in an exit interview? I do not need an emotional release at this point, I'm moving to a better situation. I could lean FIRE today, but I'm holding off because the market highs have me feeling nervous. So I'm starting a new job at a new company in the next couple of months. What good will it do to spend my time and effort trying to tell HR things they either already know or would already know if they cared enough to pay attention?

EDITS: Clarity, missing words.

[zolotiyeruki]

No, I would not tell your current employer where you're going.  I think it would be appropriate in your exit survey to state things like "Lack of autonomy" or "Lack of opportunity for professional growth," or even "poor project management" but having been down that path before, it's a Sisyphean task.  HR won't care what you write--they're only doing it because it's part of the procedure, and they're not the decision-makers, so your feedback is irrelevant to them.  And Management  is unlikely to care, either--they're too wrapped up in other things to read an exiting employee's feedback.  From what I've seen/read/heard, the only way to force a change is to either A) get into management yourself, or B) become such a key employee (i.e. indispensable AND known and respected a couple layers up) that you have some leverage, and even then, you're unlikely to effect any change.

What I'd suggest is 1) document EVERYTHING, and store it offsite, 2) network with the people who ARE competent.  Who knows, maybe your new employer will be awesome, and also need to hire more people, and you could help your new employer snipe/rescue some people from your old workplace.

[former player]

You don't share any of it.    You go completely bland: "I have enjoyed being able to make a contribution to the success of [project] and wish the company well for the future."

[2sk22]

You don't share any of it.    You go completely bland: "I have enjoyed being able to make a contribution to the success of [project] and wish the company well for the future."

Completely agree. There is no advantage to be gained by being honest in an exit interview, no matter how angry you feel about the company you are departing.

[NorCal]

You don't share any of it.    You go completely bland: "I have enjoyed being able to make a contribution to the success of [project] and wish the company well for the future."

Completely agree. There is no advantage to be gained by being honest in an exit interview, no matter how angry you feel about the company you are departing.

Agree. If you feel the need/desire to share, you can do it anonymously on a site like Glassdoor. In my experience, management will actually pay more attention to this than the silly exit interview surveys.

[saguaro]

You don't share any of it.    You go completely bland: "I have enjoyed being able to make a contribution to the success of [project] and wish the company well for the future."

Completely agree. There is no advantage to be gained by being honest in an exit interview, no matter how angry you feel about the company you are departing.

Agree. If you feel the need/desire to share, you can do it anonymously on a site like Glassdoor. In my experience, management will actually pay more attention to this than the silly exit interview surveys.

Yep, exactly what I did when I left the Big Company.   I kept things pretty bland in the exit interview, which was over the phone because the Big Company outsourced even that function by then and the person on the other end was obviously pretty disengaged with the whole thing.  Some time later I posted on Glassdoor addressing the basic issues at the company, but gave no specific details to my situation.

Also when I left, even when people try to guess my real reasons (such as my boss, who could be pretty difficult) I kept it to the blandest reason possible.

ETA: Nobody believed that I was leaving without a job lined up, which I was.  2 months later, when I was hired by the division spun off from the Big Company, some were convinced that had been my plan but wasn't. 

[Sibley]

And also - just forget to do that survey thing. Seriously. What are they going to do, fire you?

[NumberJohnny5]

And also - just forget to do that survey thing. Seriously. What are they going to do, fire you?

"Why did you leave your last job?"

"I was fired because I didn't show up for the exit interview."

"...."

[blurkraken22]

Thanks for the advice. I have indeed gone super bland in filling out their forms.

A funny, but not funny addition to my exit interview story. The subject of HR portal task is:

Subject: Terminate: blurkraken22

Is there some repressed agression hidden there? LOL. My last mission is to explain to HR why that is a terrible subject to ever send to a human being.

Long gone are the days of idealism when I thought it was HR's mission to treat us like humans.

[Adventine]

I work in HR and on behalf of all those trying to treat employees like human beings and not like pixels on a screen, I am sorry. How awful.

Enjoy your new found freedom!

Thanks for the advice. I have indeed gone super bland in filling out their forms.

A funny, but not funny addition to my exit interview story. The subject of HR portal task is:

Subject: Terminate: blurkraken22

Is there some repressed agression hidden there? LOL. My last mission is to explain to HR why that is a terrible subject to ever send to a human being.

Long gone are the days of idealism when I thought it was HR's mission to treat us like humans.

[blurkraken22]

I work in HR and on behalf of all those trying to treat employees like human beings and not like pixels on a screen, I am sorry. How awful.

Enjoy your new found freedom!

How does HR experience impact your read on this entire thread?

[LennStar]

Thanks for the advice. I have indeed gone super bland in filling out their forms.

A funny, but not funny addition to my exit interview story. The subject of HR portal task is:

Subject: Terminate: blurkraken22

Is there some repressed agression hidden there? LOL. My last mission is to explain to HR why that is a terrible subject to ever send to a human being.

Long gone are the days of idealism when I thought it was HR's mission to treat us like humans.

Could have been worse. Like "Terminate and hide" or "...cut off".

[Adventine]

I work in HR and on behalf of all those trying to treat employees like human beings and not like pixels on a screen, I am sorry. How awful.

Enjoy your new found freedom!

How does HR experience impact your read on this entire thread?

I've been avidly following this thread for years, not through an HR lens, but through a FIRE lens. I'm off-duty when I'm on the MMM forums :)

[Dicey]

I work in HR and on behalf of all those trying to treat employees like human beings and not like pixels on a screen, I am sorry. How awful.

Enjoy your new found freedom!

How does HR experience impact your read on this entire thread?

I've been avidly following this thread for years, not through an HR lens, but through a FIRE lens. I'm off-duty when I'm on the MMM forums :)

Nice to see you posting outside the journals section, @Adventine! I'm used to "seeing" you there and it made me smile to see your posts on this thread today. Go, you!

[Adventine]

I work in HR and on behalf of all those trying to treat employees like human beings and not like pixels on a screen, I am sorry. How awful.

Enjoy your new found freedom!

How does HR experience impact your read on this entire thread?

I've been avidly following this thread for years, not through an HR lens, but through a FIRE lens. I'm off-duty when I'm on the MMM forums :)

Nice to see you posting outside the journals section, @Adventine! I'm used to "seeing" you there and it made me smile to see your posts on this thread today. Go, you!

Oh, I'm always lurking in this thread. It's one of my all time faves ;)

I work in HR and on behalf of all those trying to treat employees like human beings and not like pixels on a screen, I am sorry. How awful.

Enjoy your new found freedom!

How does HR experience impact your read on this entire thread?

I've been avidly following this thread for years, not through an HR lens, but through a FIRE lens.

+1 I'm in HR too, but both here and at work, I'm basically always rooting for people, even when I have to do my job around them. We had a guy leave a toxic manager last month, for a great position and I was privately thrilled for him. Although I gave him the standard line, "We wish you all the best in your future endeavors," I really meant it. I did my job in a professional manner, but I don't run HR or the company. Everyone knows that manager is toxic, and there are 3 more good employees getting set to leave because of him too, but he's got the backing of some high level execs that love him and there's not a thing I could ever do about it.

Exactly right - I do my job as professionally as I can. But I don't set policy, I don't make hiring/firing decisions, and I try to put myself in the other person's shoes as much as I can.

[BuffaloStache]

No, I would not tell your current employer where you're going.  I think it would be appropriate in your exit survey to state things like "Lack of autonomy" or "Lack of opportunity for professional growth," or even "poor project management" but having been down that path before, it's a Sisyphean task.  HR won't care what you write--they're only doing it because it's part of the procedure, and they're not the decision-makers, so your feedback is irrelevant to them.  And Management  is unlikely to care, either--they're too wrapped up in other things to read an exiting employee's feedback.  From what I've seen/read/heard, the only way to force a change is to either A) get into management yourself, or B) become such a key employee (i.e. indispensable AND known and respected a couple layers up) that you have some leverage, and even then, you're unlikely to effect any change.

What I'd suggest is 1) document EVERYTHING, and store it offsite, 2) network with the people who ARE competent.  Who knows, maybe your new employer will be awesome, and also need to hire more people, and you could help your new employer snipe/rescue some people from your old workplace.

I know I'm late to this game but I really like @zolotiyeruki 's response- ditto. When I left my first company, I also didn't officially tell the company where I was going. It became sort of a game in the days leading up to my departure: people would run up to my cube and kept guessing where they thought I was going. Most were wrong, and I only confirmed where I was actually going about a month later. Even then I only confirmed it with the competent people that I was/still am close with (#2 above). 

[jinga nation]

I work in HR and on behalf of all those trying to treat employees like human beings and not like pixels on a screen, I am sorry. How awful.

Enjoy your new found freedom!

How does HR experience impact your read on this entire thread?

I've been avidly following this thread for years, not through an HR lens, but through a FIRE lens.

+1 I'm in HR too, but both here and at work, I'm basically always rooting for people, even when I have to do my job around them. We had a guy leave a toxic manager last month, for a great position and I was privately thrilled for him. Although I gave him the standard line, "We wish you all the best in your future endeavors," I really meant it. I did my job in a professional manner, but I don't run HR or the company. Everyone knows that manager is toxic, and there are 3 more good employees getting set to leave because of him too, but he's got the backing of some high level execs that love him and there's not a thing I could ever do about it.

Been in that situation, been that engineer who was the first of many to walk out the door. This was young me, in my 2nd full-time job, in a Fortune 500.
The high-level exec was protected because he was doing what was required of him, to get rid of the talent, after ensuring process were documented and people had been cross-trained in Puerto Rico and Bangalore.
People don't matter if the focus is solely on the bottom line to deliver shareholder value. At all short-term costs.
Gave a lot of (useful, to me) information to my director during the exit interview. My team lead told me it was waste of time, management would use it as proof they're on the right track to outsourcing our work.

Always say nice things on your way out, not the real truth. You want the new employer to get a good feedback about you. Never ever voluntarily tell your old employer where you're going.

[blurkraken22]

It could be that this is the first time she ever saw her behavior through another person's eyes.  You might be the catalyst that makes her change the way she treats people for the better.  If not, you have likely been the first chink in the wall that will eventually come crumbling down around her. 

Good for you!

I really like this response because it assumes that the antagonist can change. In fact, the most epic story of all would be the one where the office bully woke up, realized what they were doing, and changed their behavior.

I did not grow up with good role models at home for providing constructive feedback and helping people improve their behavior. I also worked mostly alone for the first few years of my career (it was the nature of that role). Eventually, being a top performer in my group, my manager began asking me to mentor and coach newer engineers. Alas, at first I was clumsy and overly critical when I started trying to teach. I have rubbed people the wrong way. In retrospect, I can even say I was the ass hat. As often happens (particularly to young engineers), I thought being technically correct was more important than my colleague's feelings. It's a sort of "let's talk facts and keep feelings out of it" mindset. How naive to think that people can really do that. Eventually I learned that if you're trying to teach someone and they're not "getting it", as the teacher it's your responsibility to package the message in a format the learner can consume.

I was lucky to meet a very very good mentor right around the time I started working in a more team-oriented environment, but my path could have been quite different. Sometimes people are just being ass hots because they see something wrong, want to fix it, but don't have the communications skills to address it well.

By no means am I suggesting we enable bullies. That's not the solution at all. But to go and professionally explain to them why their behavior is not making the situation better might trigger a better story line. And if it does not, a documented conversation along these lines will be a great thing to submit to supervisor or HR down the road if this person cannot improve.

TLDL: If you're calm and a good communicator, you can put the office bully on a PIP. :D

EDIT: I always find ways to improve clarity after hitting the post button.

[jamaicaspanish]

I teach Spanish and English as a retirement side gig.
One of my clients taught me one of the greatest lessons ever. Truly perspective-shifting.
She asked me to rephrase my feedback question from 
Do you understand?
to
Am I explaining it well?

I try to embrace the responsibility of reaching the student, not just expecting the student to make progress.
Kind of Mountain and Mohammed stuff.
I hope I explained that well.

[AO1FireTo]

I teach Spanish and English as a retirement side gig.
One of my clients taught me one of the greatest lessons ever. Truly perspective-shifting.
She asked me to rephrase my feedback question from 
Do you understand?
to
Am I explaining it well?

I try to embrace the responsibility of reaching the student, not just expecting the student to make progress.
Kind of Mountain and Mohammed stuff.
I hope I explained that well.

Love it!!!  I am going to start using that with my daughter.

[LennStar]

I teach Spanish and English as a retirement side gig.
One of my clients taught me one of the greatest lessons ever. Truly perspective-shifting.
She asked me to rephrase my feedback question from 
Do you understand?
to
Am I explaining it well?

I try to embrace the responsibility of reaching the student, not just expecting the student to make progress.
Kind of Mountain and Mohammed stuff.
I hope I explained that well.

Love it!!!  I am going to start using that with my daughter.

It even gets a bonus point because it "creates" the option of "you explained well, but I still don't understand". Which means that not the same information in a different way, but additional information is needed.

[RWTL]

I teach Spanish and English as a retirement side gig.
One of my clients taught me one of the greatest lessons ever. Truly perspective-shifting.
She asked me to rephrase my feedback question from 
Do you understand?
to
Am I explaining it well?

I try to embrace the responsibility of reaching the student, not just expecting the student to make progress.
Kind of Mountain and Mohammed stuff.
I hope I explained that well.

I've always said "Does that make sense?" but I think I'm going to switch to this above.

[SereneOne]

This thread has entertained me greatly over the past few weeks. I created an account just to submit my story. It didn't seem epic at the time but it felt BA to type it out.

Here's a story from many years ago...more about FU skills than FU money. This experience taught me alot about myself and work/life balance. Some bridges deserve to be burned and the earth salted.

I'm a school psychologist in a school. This position is in major demand in my state because there is no one else in the district who can do a part of our job (test students to help determine if there is a disability). I leave District A as the only psychologist because the then superintendent who was retiring refused to give me a raise I requested. I loved the culture at District A and the people but felt I needed to make the move for my career. District B had a higher salary scale and more opportunity for upward mobility. 

August: I made the move to District B after their two psychologists retired. I was hired and they were working on hiring another person. The school district is too big for just one of us and the state has rules limiting how many students I can serve. All is going well until I start being asked to do additional work beyond my contracted day. 

September: Usually, "extra work" is expected in my role but they still hadn't filled the other psychlogist's spot as yet so I could see they were aiming to have me do the job of two people. I emailed the superintendent and told her I'd be more than happy to contract with them after my hours to do any additional work they needed. This was the beginning of the craziest school year of all time. This incident was when apparently I poisoned the superintendent against me. In September!!! I was told there was absolutely no way they would contract with me, I was relieved of several other responsibilities and told to prioritize my day appropriately. I'll admit to being flabbergasted but I continued to do my work (not the extra and went on about my day). I'll admit to being a little naive since I thought this was over and I'd stay in my corner. 

October: I got the flu and took several days off. My wife and kids all got the flu and I took more days off. In my state, sick time is a state provided benefit (it transfers with you from school to school) and I was actually sick so I took a total of 8 days off in a 14 day period. My job is very deadline driven (federal requirements), so I did work while sick, came in for half days and missed ZERO deadlines. 

November: I come into work and was handed a letter of reprimand by my supervisor. I'm the straightest of the straight arrows out there so this was a bit shocking. After the shock I ask about my rights as an employee and ask pointed questions about why I was being treated significantly different than any other employee regarding a state benefit. These questions did nothing to endear me to the superintendent (S), assistant superintendent (AS) or my supervisor. I wrote a letter of appeal outlining why what was being done was discrimination and potentially illegal. I was asked to get a doctor's note for every instance of illness. Annoying but easily done and no one else had to do this. Just me. 

I remember clearly meeting with S and telling her that I didn't want a fight. I just wanted to be allowed to do my job and do it well since I was good at it. After all I had missed zero deadlines and every objective measure was positive. She said she didn't want to fight either. I thought she softened but then she said I "would do what she told me to do, no questions asked." I laughed and said, "ok, so it's going to be a fight then." I do nothing outside of contracted hours and stay late 

***The reader may be asking themselves why I didn't quit at this point. I considered it but in my state you can have your license suspended for up to a year (no work) for leaving in the middle of a school year. I had babies at home and my wife was stay at home. I didn't have THAT much FU money***

December: Another letter of reprimand this month, I can't remember what about. Most likely insubordination because I flat out said "no" several times. They couldn't fire me because they needed me. They were just trying to make me miserable.

No additional psychologist has been hired. The S, AS and supervisor start to realize that I will reach my caseload maximum soon. I've been tracking every single student I have contact with and realize I'll be done in January at this pace. My role is significantly limited at this point, I have to share a weekly calendar with them and they give me additional responsibilities (!!!!) that were pretty much BS paperwork and busywork. At this point my direct supervisor begins to realize that I'm good at my job and I've done everything that's been asked of me. He gives me a positive mid-year evaluation!!! :D S and AS are pissed. This positive evaluation becomes a giant hammer I use to beat back any negative thing S or AS say against me.

January: I get emailed a laundry list of new tasks for me to complete. I email back and say I won't be doing any of those. What is being asked of me is unethical and potentially illegal. I was asked to supervise a teacher. Something I had never done was not qualified to do. This is when I started to cc the school board on everything and get the teacher's union involved (I am non union). S requests a meeting with the AS and my direct supervisor to go over my new tasks. At this point I had a two year contract with the school. Although employees cannot break contract in the middle of a school year we can leave between school years. I clarified with a state education department lawyer in September. In our meeting I make the mistake (at the end of the meeting while I was getting up) of saying that I'd get them through to the end of the year following all the rules and laws, without missing any deadlines.

The superintendent set her jaw and stated I had a two year contract and they were not releasing me. I laughed and said what I stated above about leaving between years per the state education department lawyer. The superintendent said again that she would refuse to release me. I looked around, stood up, laughed incredulously and said, "I'm not sure what about I just said you didn't understand. I. WILL. NOT. BE. HERE. NEXT SCHOOL YEAR." I did it slowly enough like I thought she didn't understand English then walked out.

I leave this meeting and file a complaint with the Office of Civil rights (OCR) and the equal opportunity commission (EEOC) about withholding of a state issued benefit (sick leave). There was a time limit on when I could complain from the time the incident happened.

February: Turns out my old district A superintendent did retire and hired my friend, a former principal who knew me and my work well. The new psychologist was not working out well for them. They posted my old job again so I applied and got it with a small raise. :) AS and S hear about this through the area grapevine and they are pissed. 

Superintendent receives the official OCR and EEOC complaint. From this point there is ABSOLUTE radio silence. It was eerie. There was zero contact from S or AS. I'm assuming their lawyer recommended it.

March-May: I get to do my job (just my part) with no extra work. AS tells me they wish they had taken me up on my offer to contract with them. Me too. They had to hire a local clinical psych who charged them an arm and a leg. I turn my letter of resignation into the district on the absolute last possible day. :D 

One year later: The school board changed. The superintendent was demoted to being a teacher. Not even kidding. I think there was something in her contract about guaranteed employment so they demoted her. The AS was demoted to principal. My supervisor resigned after it was found out he was sleeping with a teacher he supervised. He was married. I'm thinking I wasn't the issue here.

This has just been a bad memory since then. I'm still at District A for the time being. I see another FU moment shaping up. My friend, the current superintendent is training me in a school finance area that only she and I know how to do. She is planning on retiring this year. :)

[RWTL]

This thread has entertained me greatly over the past few weeks. I created an account just to submit my story. It didn't seem epic at the time but it felt BA to type it out.

Here's a story from many years ago...more about FU skills than FU money. This experience taught me alot about myself and work/life balance. Some bridges deserve to be burned and the earth salted.

I'm a school psychologist in a school. This position is in major demand in my state because there is no one else in the district who can do a part of our job (test students to help determine if there is a disability). I leave District A as the only psychologist because the then superintendent who was retiring refused to give me a raise I requested. I loved the culture at District A and the people but felt I needed to make the move for my career. District B had a higher salary scale and more opportunity for upward mobility.

August: I made the move to District B after their two psychologists retired. I was hired and they were working on hiring another person. The school district is too big for just one of us and the state has rules limiting how many students I can serve. All is going well until I start being asked to do additional work beyond my contracted day.

September: Usually, "extra work" is expected in my role but they still hadn't filled the other psychlogist's spot as yet so I could see they were aiming to have me do the job of two people. I emailed the superintendent and told her I'd be more than happy to contract with them after my hours to do any additional work they needed. This was the beginning of the craziest school year of all time. This incident was when apparently I poisoned the superintendent against me. In September!!! I was told there was absolutely no way they would contract with me, I was relieved of several other responsibilities and told to prioritize my day appropriately. I'll admit to being flabbergasted but I continued to do my work (not the extra and went on about my day). I'll admit to being a little naive since I thought this was over and I'd stay in my corner.

October: I got the flu and took several days off. My wife and kids all got the flu and I took more days off. In my state, sick time is a state provided benefit (it transfers with you from school to school) and I was actually sick so I took a total of 8 days off in a 14 day period. My job is very deadline driven (federal requirements), so I did work while sick, came in for half days and missed ZERO deadlines.

November: I come into work and was handed a letter of reprimand by my supervisor. I'm the straightest of the straight arrows out there so this was a bit shocking. After the shock I ask about my rights as an employee and ask pointed questions about why I was being treated significantly different than any other employee regarding a state benefit. These questions did nothing to endear me to the superintendent (S), assistant superintendent (AS) or my supervisor. I wrote a letter of appeal outlining why what was being done was discrimination and potentially illegal. I was asked to get a doctor's note for every instance of illness. Annoying but easily done and no one else had to do this. Just me.

I remember clearly meeting with S and telling her that I didn't want a fight. I just wanted to be allowed to do my job and do it well since I was good at it. After all I had missed zero deadlines and every objective measure was positive. She said she didn't want to fight either. I thought she softened but then she said I "would do what she told me to do, no questions asked." I laughed and said, "ok, so it's going to be a fight then." I do nothing outside of contracted hours and stay late

***The reader may be asking themselves why I didn't quit at this point. I considered it but in my state you can have your license suspended for up to a year (no work) for leaving in the middle of a school year. I had babies at home and my wife was stay at home. I didn't have THAT much FU money***

December: Another letter of reprimand this month, I can't remember what about. Most likely insubordination because I flat out said "no" several times. They couldn't fire me because they needed me. They were just trying to make me miserable.

No additional psychologist has been hired. The S, AS and supervisor start to realize that I will reach my caseload maximum soon. I've been tracking every single student I have contact with and realize I'll be done in January at this pace. My role is significantly limited at this point, I have to share a weekly calendar with them and they give me additional responsibilities (!!!!) that were pretty much BS paperwork and busywork. At this point my direct supervisor begins to realize that I'm good at my job and I've done everything that's been asked of me. He gives me a positive mid-year evaluation!!! :D S and AS are pissed. This positive evaluation becomes a giant hammer I use to beat back any negative thing S or AS say against me.

January: I get emailed a laundry list of new tasks for me to complete. I email back and say I won't be doing any of those. What is being asked of me is unethical and potentially illegal. I was asked to supervise a teacher. Something I had never done was not qualified to do. This is when I started to cc the school board on everything and get the teacher's union involved (I am non union). S requests a meeting with the AS and my direct supervisor to go over my new tasks. At this point I had a two year contract with the school. Although employees cannot break contract in the middle of a school year we can leave between school years. I clarified with a state education department lawyer in September. In our meeting I make the mistake (at the end of the meeting while I was getting up) of saying that I'd get them through to the end of the year following all the rules and laws, without missing any deadlines.

The superintendent set her jaw and stated I had a two year contract and they were not releasing me. I laughed and said what I stated above about leaving between years per the state education department lawyer. The superintendent said again that she would refuse to release me. I looked around, stood up, laughed incredulously and said, "I'm not sure what about I just said you didn't understand. I. WILL. NOT. BE. HERE. NEXT SCHOOL YEAR." I did it slowly enough like I thought she didn't understand English then walked out.

I leave this meeting and file a complaint with the Office of Civil rights (OCR) and the equal opportunity commission (EEOC) about withholding of a state issued benefit (sick leave). There was a time limit on when I could complain from the time the incident happened.

February: Turns out my old district A superintendent did retire and hired my friend, a former principal who knew me and my work well. The new psychologist was not working out well for them. They posted my old job again so I applied and got it with a small raise. :) AS and S hear about this through the area grapevine and they are pissed.

Superintendent receives the official OCR and EEOC complaint. From this point there is ABSOLUTE radio silence. It was eerie. There was zero contact from S or AS. I'm assuming their lawyer recommended it.

March-May: I get to do my job (just my part) with no extra work. AS tells me they wish they had taken me up on my offer to contract with them. Me too. They had to hire a local clinical psych who charged them an arm and a leg. I turn my letter of resignation into the district on the absolute last possible day. :D

One year later: The school board changed. The superintendent was demoted to being a teacher. Not even kidding. I think there was something in her contract about guaranteed employment so they demoted her. The AS was demoted to principal. My supervisor resigned after it was found out he was sleeping with a teacher he supervised. He was married. I'm thinking I wasn't the issue here.

This has just been a bad memory since then. I'm still at District A for the time being. I see another FU moment shaping up. My friend, the current superintendent is training me in a school finance area that only she and I know how to do. She is planning on retiring this year. :)

Glad you joined to post that.  What a crazy story.

[LennStar]

Yeah. Holy shit.

[2sk22]

@SereneOne Thats truly epic and definitely belongs in the hall-of-fame! And welcome to the forum!

[bbqbonelesswing]

Totally badass first post!