Author Topic: Environmentalists: Why don't I see more posts about being Vegan? (Seriously though)  (Read 120038 times)

Hotstreak

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Diet is the worst!  There is so much conflicting information out there, because there are almost no "good" scientific studies.  It's expensive to do RCT's on diet, they would realistically need to continue for decades, and nobody stands to profit from it.

human

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Cmon people,  every one keeps attacking vegans for the "horrible" diet, it's such a crock. Scott Jurek can manage it, then I think most people can. We can all easily manage without meat. Lets quit this "it's so unhealthy" bs and just admit you like eating animals. Op is right it's an inefficient resource and we're all hypocrites since we all love talking about optimization of this or that, but gasp stop eating meat? Clutch my pearls!

Primm

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Squirrel away

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What really bugs the crap out of me is this prevailing notion that vegan people have to constantly tell people they are vegan, and that they are doing it out of some self-righteous position. Mainstream society is NOT vegan friendly. Co-worker brings cookies and offers you one? Gotta decline. I can explain why, or I can let them wonder why I won't accept their friendly gesture. Out to eat with new friends? Gotta explain why you keep declining those table appetizers. People look at you funny when you are constantly declining food. Declining food=not American. Easiest solution is to explain why. Hell, sometimes I just say I am allergic to avoid the interrogation that occurs when you say you are vegan.

Exactly.

2buttons

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You made a choice to be part of the 0.5% of the population that is vegan and then you are upset that 99.5% of the rest of the population is not vegan friendly? Seriously?

If you want to only eat veggies despite the government suggesting a food pyramid that is balanced differently, go right ahead.

But I wouldn't go to Miami beach wearing a puffy winter jacket in the middle of the Summer and then complain that people are asking me why I am wearing a winter jacket.

Squirrel away

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You made a choice to be part of the 0.5% of the population that is vegan and then you are upset that 99.5% of the rest of the population is not vegan friendly? Seriously?


Er, no, it's just a fact. People were saying that vegans preach and talk about being vegan constantly, but it is obviously something that needs to be mentioned eg: for work situations at conferences, family get togethers, meals out with friends etc... as vegans have to check that their dietary needs are being met if they are going to be eating. Is it that difficult to understand?

2buttons

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You made a choice to be part of the 0.5% of the population that is vegan and then you are upset that 99.5% of the rest of the population is not vegan friendly? Seriously?


Is it that difficult to understand?

Nope. You just made it crystal clear why people stereotype vegan's.

Squirrel away

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You made a choice to be part of the 0.5% of the population that is vegan and then you are upset that 99.5% of the rest of the population is not vegan friendly? Seriously?


Is it that difficult to understand?

Nope. You just made it crystal clear why people stereotype vegan's.

I'm not entirely sure what that is meant to mean, I was just explaining why it might seem like vegans mention being vegan a lot.  British people are obsessed with tea, lol, and even people offering me a drink means I have to say/explain why I don't have dairy milk in my tea.

I'm lucky in that I live in London and have worked in places with Muslims, Hindus and other minorities and thankfully no one acts like having different beliefs to the norm is a big deal.

gaja

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You made a choice to be part of the 0.5% of the population that is vegan and then you are upset that 99.5% of the rest of the population is not vegan friendly? Seriously?


Is it that difficult to understand?

Nope. You just made it crystal clear why people stereotype vegan's.

I'm not entirely sure what that is meant to mean, I was just explaining why it might seem like vegans mention being vegan a lot.  British people are obsessed with tea, lol, and even people offering me a drink means I have to say/explain why I don't have dairy milk in my tea.

I'm lucky in that I live in London and have worked in places with Muslims, Hindus and other minorities and thankfully no one acts like having different beliefs to the norm is a big deal.

I usually just say "thanks, but no thanks", or "I prefer it black, thanks", when people make me a cup of tea. Nobody has ever asked why.

human

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I only know one vegan and they never make a big deal out of it. Restaurant choices are really limited though.

MidWestLove

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steveo,

Thank you for your answer - it appears that our sources differ. specifically , the evidence of (very recent)  recorded human history living on the diets of low meat and plant food is also described as evidence of very low life longevity by modern standards. for those you seek those days and those days diets, they should also remember how long humans lived until very recently. you have also answered exactly nothing on real anthropological evidence showing we have evolved to eat meat and ate meat for hundreds of thousands of years (at least).

As said, you are entitled to your opinion, and welcome to argue it to death. we long went from facts to beliefs and  beliefs/religions can not be proved in any form. This thread is one of the reasons why vegans/vegetarians would be avoided by me as another sect of aggressive zealots. if that was the purpose of this thread, you and topic  starter have succeeded marvelously to a person who was completely neutral on the issue not caring at all what you eat, not eat, why and when.  congratulations, you win.   

I will no longer read this thread so if you want to reach out on this to me , feel free to PM.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 08:37:52 AM by MidWestLove »

Squirrel away

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I usually just say "thanks, but no thanks", or "I prefer it black, thanks", when people make me a cup of tea. Nobody has ever asked why.

Hmm, I suppose you can avoid it like that, but I generally prefer plant milk in my tea rather than take it black so it just seems easier to say I'm vegan.:)


prognastat

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I usually just say "thanks, but no thanks", or "I prefer it black, thanks", when people make me a cup of tea. Nobody has ever asked why.

Hmm, I suppose you can avoid it like that, but I generally prefer plant milk in my tea rather than take it black so it just seems easier to say I'm vegan.:)

Now I have no problem with veganism myself and know a few myself and generally the stereotype of them having to tell you seems to hold true less than commonly argued. However here you seem to be playing in to it yourself after arguing against it. It sounds like you are saying that in a situation where you would be very unlikely to actually get plant based milk for your tea that instead of just saying you would prefer it black an no one knowing you are vegan you would actually rather call out that you are a vegan when it will not change the situation and thus unnecessarily call attention to it, which fits the stereotype.

Also as far as veganism itself, I don't believe it is healthier than a balanced diet and exercise regiment. For it to be as healthy as a balanced diet you generally either need far more expensive ingredients in your cooking or supplement it with pills which I don't think really shows how healthy it is as a diet. The average American does eat too much meat though, most of all red, which in excess is not good for you either.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 09:12:32 AM by prognastat »

Squirrel away

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Now I have no problem with veganism myself and know a few myself and generally the stereotype of them having to tell you seems to hold true less than commonly argued. However here you seem to be playing in to it yourself after arguing against it. It sounds like you are saying that in a situation where you would be very unlikely to actually get plant based milk for your tea that instead of just saying you would prefer it black an no one knowing you are vegan you would actually rather call out that you are a vegan when it will not change the situation and thus unnecessarily call attention to it, which fits the stereotype.

I don't see the point of lying as it's not like I'm ashamed of being a vegan. If I was in a work situation I wouldn't just keep making up fibs if people kept asking me if I wanted a cup of tea. Slightly ridiculous!

If some of the Muslim people I've known lied and said that they didn't drink alcohol because they were allergic or something rather than saying it was because they were Muslim I would find that weird. I'm not offended by people choosing not to drink alcohol.

As I said, luckily I don't live or work in a culturally backward area so it doesn't bother me if some people get offended by people choosing to be vegan.


prognastat

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At which point did I tell you to lie? Would you prefer tea black or with animal sourced milk? If you would prefer it black with those two options then saying you would prefer it black is not a lie.

Also if someone says "I don't drink alcohol" I and I am sure most people would leave it at that same as if you said that you didn't want milk. If you want to talk about religion I am an atheist, but moved to Texas and as such am always surrounded by religious people. Instead of going out of my way to make it be known that I am an atheist I just decline when invited to religious events or activities, I don't have to tell them why I am declining unless they ask.

You can spin it however you want, however you are still going out of your way to make a deal out of being a vegan which is what you are saying people are incorrect on.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 09:46:51 AM by prognastat »

Squirrel away

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At which point did I tell you to lie? Would you prefer tea black or with animal sourced milk? If you would prefer it black with those two options then saying you would prefer it black is not a lie.

Also if someone tells me I don't drink alcohol I and I am sure most people would leave it at that same as if you said that you didn't want milk. If you want to talk about religion I am an atheist, but moved to Texas and as such am always surrounded by religious people. Instead of going out of my way to make it be known that I am an atheist I just decline when invited to religious events or activities, I don't have to tell them why I am declining unless they ask.

You can spin it however you want, however you are still going out of your way to make a deal out of being a vegan which is what you are saying people are incorrect on.

Well, clearly we are different people.:) I'm atheist and would say that without reservation if the subject came up. I have however attended religious events to support my friends when they have wanted to go.

prognastat

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At which point did I tell you to lie? Would you prefer tea black or with animal sourced milk? If you would prefer it black with those two options then saying you would prefer it black is not a lie.

Also if someone tells me I don't drink alcohol I and I am sure most people would leave it at that same as if you said that you didn't want milk. If you want to talk about religion I am an atheist, but moved to Texas and as such am always surrounded by religious people. Instead of going out of my way to make it be known that I am an atheist I just decline when invited to religious events or activities, I don't have to tell them why I am declining unless they ask.

You can spin it however you want, however you are still going out of your way to make a deal out of being a vegan which is what you are saying people are incorrect on.

Well, clearly we are different people.:) I'm atheist and would say that without reservation if the subject came up. I have however attended religious events to support my friends when they have wanted to go.

Well I have been to marriages and funerals etc which can have a religious side to it. However if someone wants to pray together, asks me to pray for something or invites me to church etc I generally just decline and I find that even here most people don't feel the need to ask why.

Chris22

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Just to clarify, we're talking about giving this up?







Are you people insane?

Smevans

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I avoid talking about it at all costs (online or in person). My experience is people become complete assholes when they find out you don't eat meat. I don't care what others eat, it is not my place to dictate ones life. But people seem to go out of their way to show me they enjoy eating meat.

KMMK

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I've never eaten any of those so there's no particular appeal.

Turnbull

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In 21 years of adulthood I've never bought an ounce of beef from a store but my family sure does love the hundreds of pounds of tasty and healthy venison we kill, process, and consume every year.

SoManyQuestions

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You made a choice to be part of the 0.5% of the population that is vegan and then you are upset that 99.5% of the rest of the population is not vegan friendly? Seriously?

If you want to only eat veggies despite the government suggesting a food pyramid that is balanced differently, go right ahead.

But I wouldn't go to Miami beach wearing a puffy winter jacket in the middle of the Summer and then complain that people are asking me why I am wearing a winter jacket.

As the person who made the post you are referring to, I would ask that you re-read what I said. Where do I say that I am upset that the rest of the population is not vegan friendly? I (seriously) think you are missing my point.

GreenSheep

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I am vegan, and I recently discovered "Food for Thought," a podcast done by Colleen Patrick-Goudreau. She's very good at defying the vegan stereotype by demonstrating how to thoughtfully and respectfully respond to those who ask honest questions or hurl insults at us when they find out we are vegan. For those who are vegan and want help with this stuff, I highly recommend her podcast. It would also be helpful for those meat-eaters out there who look at vegans and just cannot understand why we eat the way we do.

As Colleen often points out, all of us (with a few exceptions) ate meat at one point in our lives. Most vegans were raised as meat eaters. So we all thought the way meat eaters do at some point, and we all made a transition in our thinking. I like to see meat eaters as people who just haven't made the transition yet. I'm not naive enough to think that all of them will, but some will. It's not my goal to convert them, but if they have questions, I have answers, and I try to be a non-preachy source of inspiration.

To answer the original question about environmentalists, I will quote Colleen: "Don't do nothing because you can't do everything." I'm thrilled that there are people who care about the environment and are doing what they can for it. I would love it if everyone ate a plant-based diet for the environment and for so many other reasons. However, I'm not going to hold it against them if they don't. I'd rather celebrate the things people are doing to help and hope that maybe someday they will find a way to do more. If we belittle people for what they're not doing, I don't think it encourages them to try it.

2buttons

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You made a choice to be part of the 0.5% of the population that is vegan and then you are upset that 99.5% of the rest of the population is not vegan friendly? Seriously?

If you want to only eat veggies despite the government suggesting a food pyramid that is balanced differently, go right ahead.

But I wouldn't go to Miami beach wearing a puffy winter jacket in the middle of the Summer and then complain that people are asking me why I am wearing a winter jacket.

As the person who made the post you are referring to, I would ask that you re-read what I said. Where do I say that I am upset that the rest of the population is not vegan friendly? I (seriously) think you are missing my point.

Nope. I understood every word. If you want to try to explain, that's fine, but bear in mind that the computer you are typing on is built with fossil fuels not to mention the amount of fossil fuels used in both the creation of said computer, it's delivery, the internet connection you are using, the paper bill or e Bill you receive, and the classes you took to operate a computer all were super destructive to the environment, particularly the mining of precious metals. No computer user is an environmentalist nor a true Scotsman.

Primm

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I am vegan, and I recently discovered "Food for Thought," a podcast done by Colleen Patrick-Goudreau. She's very good at defying the vegan stereotype by demonstrating how to thoughtfully and respectfully respond to those who ask honest questions or hurl insults at us when they find out we are vegan. For those who are vegan and want help with this stuff, I highly recommend her podcast. It would also be helpful for those meat-eaters out there who look at vegans and just cannot understand why we eat the way we do.

As Colleen often points out, all of us (with a few exceptions) ate meat at one point in our lives. Most vegans were raised as meat eaters. So we all thought the way meat eaters do at some point, and we all made a transition in our thinking. I like to see meat eaters as people who just haven't made the transition yet. I'm not naive enough to think that all of them will, but some will. It's not my goal to convert them, but if they have questions, I have answers, and I try to be a non-preachy source of inspiration.

To answer the original question about environmentalists, I will quote Colleen: "Don't do nothing because you can't do everything." I'm thrilled that there are people who care about the environment and are doing what they can for it. I would love it if everyone ate a plant-based diet for the environment and for so many other reasons. However, I'm not going to hold it against them if they don't. I'd rather celebrate the things people are doing to help and hope that maybe someday they will find a way to do more. If we belittle people for what they're not doing, I don't think it encourages them to try it.

The thing is though, most of us who aren't vegan neither care nor are interested in why you don't eat meat. Yet a large proportion of the vegans I've met feel the need to explain this. Why? We truly don't care! If you choose not to eat meat or animal products, that's absolutely your call. I have no problem with that. But don't try and explain it to me, just leave it at "no thanks" if offered something you don't eat.

My husband used to manage a steak house. The giveaway should be in the name, right? Steakhouse. Every week without fail he'd have a customer come in with a group and try and convince him that he needed to cook their variety of vegetables on a grill that hadn't been "contaminated" with meat. Yes, that was the word they used. I've lost count of the number of times he had to take them to the door of the kitchen to show them that such a grill didn't exist, for this was a STEAKHOUSE. If you're vegan and going out for dinner, get the group to pick a location that doesn't have the word Steak in the name. Or politely decline to go. It's not that hard.

My friends go to places all the time that have foods I can't eat. I check out the menu online prior, and if nothing appeals a simple "sorry, I can't come" is my reply. I have never been questioned about my food intolerances because I don't make a big deal out of them.

"How do you like your tea?" is met with "black please". See? It's not that hard.

SoManyQuestions

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You made a choice to be part of the 0.5% of the population that is vegan and then you are upset that 99.5% of the rest of the population is not vegan friendly? Seriously?

If you want to only eat veggies despite the government suggesting a food pyramid that is balanced differently, go right ahead.

But I wouldn't go to Miami beach wearing a puffy winter jacket in the middle of the Summer and then complain that people are asking me why I am wearing a winter jacket.

As the person who made the post you are referring to, I would ask that you re-read what I said. Where do I say that I am upset that the rest of the population is not vegan friendly? I (seriously) think you are missing my point.

Nope. I understood every word. If you want to try to explain, that's fine, but bear in mind that the computer you are typing on is built with fossil fuels not to mention the amount of fossil fuels used in both the creation of said computer, it's delivery, the internet connection you are using, the paper bill or e Bill you receive, and the classes you took to operate a computer all were super destructive to the environment, particularly the mining of precious metals. No computer user is an environmentalist nor a true Scotsman.

Your responses continue to prove that you really didn't comprehend my post. And your argument above is nothing more than a red herring that doesn't respond at all to the previous post.

2buttons

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Ugh. Self righteous faux environmentalists, that waste carbon not expressing a point. Millennial?

GreenSheep

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I am vegan, and I recently discovered "Food for Thought," a podcast done by Colleen Patrick-Goudreau. She's very good at defying the vegan stereotype by demonstrating how to thoughtfully and respectfully respond to those who ask honest questions or hurl insults at us when they find out we are vegan. For those who are vegan and want help with this stuff, I highly recommend her podcast. It would also be helpful for those meat-eaters out there who look at vegans and just cannot understand why we eat the way we do.

As Colleen often points out, all of us (with a few exceptions) ate meat at one point in our lives. Most vegans were raised as meat eaters. So we all thought the way meat eaters do at some point, and we all made a transition in our thinking. I like to see meat eaters as people who just haven't made the transition yet. I'm not naive enough to think that all of them will, but some will. It's not my goal to convert them, but if they have questions, I have answers, and I try to be a non-preachy source of inspiration.

To answer the original question about environmentalists, I will quote Colleen: "Don't do nothing because you can't do everything." I'm thrilled that there are people who care about the environment and are doing what they can for it. I would love it if everyone ate a plant-based diet for the environment and for so many other reasons. However, I'm not going to hold it against them if they don't. I'd rather celebrate the things people are doing to help and hope that maybe someday they will find a way to do more. If we belittle people for what they're not doing, I don't think it encourages them to try it.

The thing is though, most of us who aren't vegan neither care nor are interested in why you don't eat meat. Yet a large proportion of the vegans I've met feel the need to explain this. Why? We truly don't care! If you choose not to eat meat or animal products, that's absolutely your call. I have no problem with that. But don't try and explain it to me, just leave it at "no thanks" if offered something you don't eat.

My husband used to manage a steak house. The giveaway should be in the name, right? Steakhouse. Every week without fail he'd have a customer come in with a group and try and convince him that he needed to cook their variety of vegetables on a grill that hadn't been "contaminated" with meat. Yes, that was the word they used. I've lost count of the number of times he had to take them to the door of the kitchen to show them that such a grill didn't exist, for this was a STEAKHOUSE. If you're vegan and going out for dinner, get the group to pick a location that doesn't have the word Steak in the name. Or politely decline to go. It's not that hard.

My friends go to places all the time that have foods I can't eat. I check out the menu online prior, and if nothing appeals a simple "sorry, I can't come" is my reply. I have never been questioned about my food intolerances because I don't make a big deal out of them.

"How do you like your tea?" is met with "black please". See? It's not that hard.

I meant that it would be helpful for those who do care and want to know. Obviously, if you don't care and don't want to know, don't download the podcast. I've been asked by many non-vegans why I am vegan, and this is one way to get a more complete answer than what I'm able to give in a quick conversation.

Edited to add that I don't go around announcing that I'm vegan, but sometimes people notice that I haven't brought meat for lunch, for example, and they ask. So I answer honestly. And the questions begin. I don't push anything on those who don't ask. But for those who ask, I do my best to answer.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 07:26:39 PM by GreenSheep »

pancakes

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I'll preface this by sating I'm not a vegan, I'm not a vegetarian either but I do have an issue with the "I just don't care" response.

Like it or not, there are huge ethical questions to be posed when it comes to our food supply. Just as there are when it comes to things like consumer goods, waste, transport, etc. No matter how much I enjoy something, I'd like to think that I'm able to reconcile my personal enjoyment or convenience with the impact that the thing has on other people, animals, the environment, etc without closing my mind off completely.

I think the above is often easier said than done. I don't do a great job of it a lot of the time.

Primm

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I'll preface this by sating I'm not a vegan, I'm not a vegetarian either but I do have an issue with the "I just don't care" response.

Like it or not, there are huge ethical questions to be posed when it comes to our food supply. Just as there are when it comes to things like consumer goods, waste, transport, etc. No matter how much I enjoy something, I'd like to think that I'm able to reconcile my personal enjoyment or convenience with the impact that the thing has on other people, animals, the environment, etc without closing my mind off completely.

I think the above is often easier said than done. I don't do a great job of it a lot of the time.

For clarification, I don't not care about the environment, or the impact of food sources on said environment, or sustainability, or any one of the myriad of things that impact on the ability of our earth to survive. I live here too, I have a vested interest in helping to ensure said survival.

I mean I truly don't care about the individual reason an individual person has for not eating meat or animal products. Good luck to them, but I don't want to hear about it incessantly.

Vanguards and Lentils

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(not a vegan or even a vegetarian... yet)

For me the greatest argument to becoming vegan is reducing animal suffering, not "environmentalism" as a whole. I read the following in a book about charities, the context of which was how pet rescue charities do much less to reduce suffering than farm animal advocates:
Quote
“Every year, hundreds of millions of animals—many times more than the total number killed for fur, housed in shelters, and locked in laboratories combined—don’t even make it to slaughter. They actually suffer to death.”

While I personally haven't met annoying vegans, I understand that they exist and might leave a bad taste in people's mouths. But I think anyone who simply attacks vegans, or says "I don't want to hear about it", rather than addressing the animal suffering issue head-on, is being anti-intellectual and maybe even complicit. The fact is that we can, with some difficulty, sustain ourselves without meat. Most of us would rather shut correct people up, maybe because of cognitive dissonance (If you're skeptical: just google "battery cages").

pbkmaine

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My two goddaughters, both twentysomethings, have been at various stages, vegan, vegetarian and pescatarian. Right now they are pescatarian. What is really nice about them is their good manners. Offer them steak? They simply say: "Oh, no thank you!" Invite them to a restaurant? They will find something on the menu to enjoy. Reading through this, it appears to me that it is not what you eat or don't eat that bothers people. It's how annoying you are about it.

prognastat

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(not a vegan or even a vegetarian... yet)

For me the greatest argument to becoming vegan is reducing animal suffering, not "environmentalism" as a whole. I read the following in a book about charities, the context of which was how pet rescue charities do much less to reduce suffering than farm animal advocates:
Quote
“Every year, hundreds of millions of animals—many times more than the total number killed for fur, housed in shelters, and locked in laboratories combined—don’t even make it to slaughter. They actually suffer to death.”

While I personally haven't met annoying vegans, I understand that they exist and might leave a bad taste in people's mouths. But I think anyone who simply attacks vegans, or says "I don't want to hear about it", rather than addressing the animal suffering issue head-on, is being anti-intellectual and maybe even complicit. The fact is that we can, with some difficulty, sustain ourselves without meat. Most of us would rather shut correct people up, maybe because of cognitive dissonance (If you're skeptical: just google "battery cages").

You can say the same for plant based sustenance though, most people in the west consuming fruits and vegetables get them from modern farming techniques which produce lots of food, but are very destructive to wildlife and the soil itself. The amount of animals that get killed in the name of protecting and harvesting that food on top of that the amount of fuel that gets wasted transporting it all. The fruits and veggies most people eat are not environmentally friendly nor free of animal suffering. Now you can debate the difference between the ethics of growing and killing animals as a goal as opposed to a side effect of your food production. However, it is not a way to cleanse yourself from environmentally bad practices or animal suffering. As one of the posts above mentions about at least some vegans not even wanting to eat vegetables cooked on the same surface that meat was cooked on I doubt they think of the animals that were killed in the name of producing those very same vegetables.

I have actually put a lot of thought in to this and my honest belief is that if you wanted to minimize environmental harm and animal suffering the best you could likely do is something along the line of growing your own produce, keeping your own free range chickens and cows for eggs and milk while hunting for a small amount of red meat making sure to kill older animals that have had a full life and hopefully the ability to reproduce. Also you would need to use as much of the animals you hunted to minimize the amount you needed to hunt, so this would generally include using the parts that generally are less sought after and available in most supermarkets. This way you minimize the amount of waste associated with growing and transporting your produce and the animals suffer a minimal amount since the ones you keep get to live a mostly normal life and the ones you hunt until you kill them they were free and lived naturally.

I don't live this way since it is not practical with city living which is unavoidable if I wanted to keep my job which is a necessity. I might though at some point after reaching FI if I am able to move out of the city.

However this is also not sustainable if everyone were to do this similar to mustachianism. Right now the world wide population we have is being propped up by these highly efficient but terrible farming practices we currently employ. If we were to shift away from them to anything else right now it would lead to more people starving of hunger than already do right now. Now if you believe animal well being and environmental life is more important than human life and suffering then yes we could force that switch, let billions of people die and probably make it through and afterwards live in much better balance with the environment. However I feel this is very unethical since the people dying would not be the people making this decision, it would be the very poorest in western countries and most of all large swaths in third world countries. The alternative ids to continue as we currently are until we figure out a better way than we currently have available. I believe genetic modification of plants could potentially lead to more efficient and sustainable farming methods, however this depends on how ethical the companies can be in it and also if people are willing to accept it, something that a large portion of the vegan and environmentalist communities are vehemently opposed to.

Sorry for the long rant, but I just wanted to assure you this is something I have thought about and disagree that veganism is a solution to, both both in that simply switching to plant based sustenance is not solving animal suffering and would simply move it to extinction for more animals and also that to do it in a way that doesn't is unethical at this time due to the effect it would have on other humans.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 08:19:25 AM by prognastat »

dycker1978

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(not a vegan or even a vegetarian... yet)

For me the greatest argument to becoming vegan is reducing animal suffering, not "environmentalism" as a whole. I read the following in a book about charities, the context of which was how pet rescue charities do much less to reduce suffering than farm animal advocates:
Quote
“Every year, hundreds of millions of animals—many times more than the total number killed for fur, housed in shelters, and locked in laboratories combined—don’t even make it to slaughter. They actually suffer to death.”

While I personally haven't met annoying vegans, I understand that they exist and might leave a bad taste in people's mouths. But I think anyone who simply attacks vegans, or says "I don't want to hear about it", rather than addressing the animal suffering issue head-on, is being anti-intellectual and maybe even complicit. The fact is that we can, with some difficulty, sustain ourselves without meat. Most of us would rather shut correct people up, maybe because of cognitive dissonance (If you're skeptical: just google "battery cages").

You can say the same for plant based sustenance though, most people in the west consuming fruits and vegetables get them from modern farming techniques which produce lots of food, but are very destructive to wildlife and the soil itself. The amount of animals that get killed in the name of protecting and harvesting that food on top of that the amount of fuel that gets wasted transporting it all. The fruits and veggies most people eat are not environmentally friendly nor free of animal suffering. Now you can debate the difference between the ethics of growing and killing animals as a goal as opposed to a side effect of your food production. However, it is not a way to cleanse yourself from environmentally bad practices or animal suffering. As one of the posts above mentions about at least some vegans not even wanting to eat vegetables cooked on the same surface that meat was cooked on I doubt they think of the animals that were killed in the name of producing those very same vegetables.

I have actually put a lot of thought in to this and my honest belief is that if you wanted to minimize environmental harm and animal suffering the best you could likely do is something along the line of growing your own produce, keeping your own free range chickens and cows for eggs and milk while hunting for a small amount of red meat making sure to kill older animals that have had a full life and hopefully the ability to reproduce. Also you would need to use as much of the animals you hunted to minimize the amount you needed to hunt, so this would generally include using the parts that generally are less sought after and available in most supermarkets. This way you minimize the amount of waste associated with growing and transporting your produce and the animals suffer a minimal amount since the ones you keep get to live a mostly normal life and the ones you hunt until you kill them they were free and lived naturally.

I don't live this way since it is not practical with city living which is unavoidable if I wanted to keep my job which is a necessity. I might though at some point after reaching FI if I am able to move out of the city.

However this is also not sustainable if everyone were to do this similar to mustachianism. Right now the world wide population we have is being propped up by these highly efficient but terrible farming practices we currently employ. If we were to shift away from them to anything else right now it would lead to more people starving of hunger than already do right now. Now if you believe animal well being and environmental life is more important than human life and suffering then yes we could force that switch, let billions of people die and probably make it through and afterwards live in much better balance with the environment. However I feel this is very unethical since the people dying would not be the people making this decision, it would be the very poorest in western countries and most of all large swaths in third world countries. The alternative ids to continue as we currently are until we figure out a better way than we currently have available. I believe genetic modification of plants could potentially lead to more efficient and sustainable farming methods, however this depends on how ethical the companies can be in it and also if people are willing to accept it, something that a large portion of the vegan and environmentalist communities are vehemently opposed to.

Sorry for the long rant, but I just wanted to assure you this is something I have thought about and disagree that veganism is a solution to, both both in that simply switching to plant based sustenance is not solving animal suffering and would simply move it to extinction for more animals and also that to do it in a way that doesn't is unethical at this time due to the effect it would have on other humans.

You point to todays farming practices to be unsafe.  This is very true, but there is an alternative to this.  Organics.  They remove the use of harmful chemicals from the food.   Also, do you think that if we stopped growing on the 36% of ice free land in the world, food that was eaten by livestock, that we could not increase our plant based food enough to get everyone fed.

Becoming vegan will not be 100% environmentally sound, there will be some foot print.  I think that we need to get back closer to what our ancestors did. Most have huge lawns that they feed fertilizer, and water.  Convert this is to a garden.  Eat more plant based diets.  less Meat.  Prepare your own food, instead of the caned, boxed, processed crap that you buy ready to eat from the corner store.  Buy what you can local.  If you are going to choose to eat meat, but from a local farmer.  This will have a bigger environmental impact then arguing who is right, vegans, or non vegans.

GreenSheep

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Yes, vegans indirectly kill animals (field mice, etc.) in the process of growing plants to eat. (Even without pesticides, these animals are killed by combines and other large farming equipment.) We live in an imperfect world, and we're all trying to do the best we can. Being vegan doesn't mean "I never kill any animals, ever, either directly or indirectly."

The problem is that the environmental impact of growing food is much larger when that food is meat because the animals being raised for food require a lot more plants to grow to eating size. They also require a lot more water. If you just give these plants and water directly to people, the environmental impact is much smaller. Even if you raise animals by letting them graze, rather than feeding them human-grown corn and soy, there's just not enough space for them to do so. Cows, etc. eat a LOT. That's why vast swaths of our rainforests are being cut down to make room for animal grazing. Then there's also the question of all that animal waste sitting around in huge ponds at all the CAFOs. When those leak (and they do), it's a disaster for the environment.

There is no food shortage on this planet. It's only a question of food distribution. We grow plenty of food. We just give too much of it to animals. If we cut out the middle man ("middle animal") there would be plenty of food for all humans.

Northwestie

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Plus - vegan food baked goods taste like crap.  And no beer!

partgypsy

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I think there is a middle ground between being completely ignorant of what one is consuming, and being a vegan/vegetarian. When I started college I started a vegetarian diet (eating very healthy, actually part of a co-op), still ended up becoming severely iron-deficient anemic. the doctor told me a) to never donate blood, and b) include red meat in my diet. I even went to a nutritionist who confirmed I consumed enough iron in my (vegetarian) diet, but apparently some people cannot absorb the iron well from non-animal sources. So in addition to taking iron pills 3x a day for a number of months, have since then always included red meat in my diet. Does it mean I need to eat it every day, or for every meal? No. What I'm trying to say, going to Americans who eat a very processed diet with lots of red meat and other meat, and chiding them that they are not vegan, is not going to go over well. It doesn't help the conversation. And there may be medical reasons some are not vegan/vegetarian.
What does help, is in general people becoming more aware of where their food comes from, preparing more of their food from scratch, and including more meatless meals in their diet. Some of the things that have gone over well in our house is vegetable soups, some traditional Greek (vegetarian-look for lenten) dishes, Mexican and Indian dishes. People LOVE food. It is more of a benefit to expose people to food that tastes delicious without relying on meat, than to give people guilt trips.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 10:09:51 AM by partgypsy »

TRBeck

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Plus - vegan food baked goods taste like crap.  And no beer!
Not a vegan, but I was for a while a long time ago. Both of these statements are inaccurate. The first is an opinion obviously, but I have had many excellent vegan baked goods, and even made some myself. As for beer, most is vegan. Only breweries that use fining agents derived from shellfish or eggs are not. This does include many macros and a few micros, but the vast majority of craft brew is vegan-friendly.

Northwestie

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Plus - vegan food baked goods taste like crap.  And no beer!
Not a vegan, but I was for a while a long time ago. Both of these statements are inaccurate. The first is an opinion obviously, but I have had many excellent vegan baked goods, and even made some myself. As for beer, most is vegan. Only breweries that use fining agents derived from shellfish or eggs are not. This does include many macros and a few micros, but the vast majority of craft brew is vegan-friendly.

So they just ignore the yeast?

ohana

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Saying someone isn't an environmentalist because of "yada yada yah" is a very slippery slope though.
In stating that I don't believe the environmentalist argument. I'm not even sure what helps. I think global warming is an obvious scam and I'm not sure if the environment is really being completely screwed over.

There is overwhelming evidence that climate change is occurring at an alarming pace, that is it is caused by human activities, and that it will have extraordinary effects on all living systems on the planet. 

The OP is correct that one of the most important ways we can reduce our carbon footprint is by reducing our intake of meat (not to mention the many other benefits -- health, pollution, ethics.  I'm a huge meat lover but have become a "meat minimizer" for both health and environmental reasons. 

BTW, yeast is not an animal.

TRBeck

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Plus - vegan food baked goods taste like crap.  And no beer!
Not a vegan, but I was for a while a long time ago. Both of these statements are inaccurate. The first is an opinion obviously, but I have had many excellent vegan baked goods, and even made some myself. As for beer, most is vegan. Only breweries that use fining agents derived from shellfish or eggs are not. This does include many macros and a few micros, but the vast majority of craft brew is vegan-friendly.

So they just ignore the yeast?
yeast=fungus=plant=not an animal

MandalayVA

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I think the point that's being missed by everyone in this discussion is how fortunate we are that we can eat as we like.  I seriously doubt anyone in here has ever experienced true famine or starvation.  We can just trot down to the supermarket--and a western supermarket is an embarrassment of riches--and pick up a ribeye or a vegan cupcake.  Humans are omnivores; we can eat just about anything.  As far as the environment, people are referring to the human environment.  The earth is far older than humanity and will most likely be around long after humanity.  No one here's saving the planet and it's a huge conceit if you believe you are because you won't eat a burger or you buy your eggs locally.  In the immortal words of George Carlin, the earth can shake humanity off like a bad cold.

ohana

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Plus - vegan food baked goods taste like crap.  And no beer!
Not a vegan, but I was for a while a long time ago. Both of these statements are inaccurate. The first is an opinion obviously, but I have had many excellent vegan baked goods, and even made some myself. As for beer, most is vegan. Only breweries that use fining agents derived from shellfish or eggs are not. This does include many macros and a few micros, but the vast majority of craft brew is vegan-friendly.

So they just ignore the yeast?
yeast=fungus=plant=not an animal

Well, actually, no, fungi and plants are not the same thing.  Trust me, I'm a biologist . . . .  Heads off to teach college biology class.

Stache-O-Lantern

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Plus - vegan food baked goods taste like crap.  And no beer!
Not a vegan, but I was for a while a long time ago. Both of these statements are inaccurate. The first is an opinion obviously, but I have had many excellent vegan baked goods, and even made some myself. As for beer, most is vegan. Only breweries that use fining agents derived from shellfish or eggs are not. This does include many macros and a few micros, but the vast majority of craft brew is vegan-friendly.

So they just ignore the yeast?
yeast=fungus=plant=not an animal

I have no comment on veganism.  But I just gotta point out that not only are fungi, including yeast, not plants, they are genetically/evolutionarily more closely related to animals.  There, that's out of my system now.

maizefolk

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yeast=fungus=plant=not an animal
I have no comment on veganism.  But I just gotta point out that not only are fungi, including yeast, not plants, they are genetically/evolutionarily more closely related to animals.  There, that's out of my system now.

yeast=fungus=plant=not an animal

Well, actually, no, fungi and plants are not the same thing.  Trust me, I'm a biologist . . . .  Heads off to teach college biology class.

Two people have already said it. But I am also a biologist. Fungi are not plants!

ohana

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Fungus:

<>plant.
<>animal.

Fungus=fungus.

Drops mic.

TRBeck

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Okay, fungus is not a plant. It is also not an animal. Anyway, no, most vegans don't worry about yeast.

And yes, it is only extreme privilege that allows people to choose a diet entirely based on ethics. But that's also true of many other principles discussed on the forum.

I'm vegan-sympathetic, but I am no longer on a plant-based diet. Sure, some vegans are in-your-face about it. Many never say a word, so you don't know they're vegan. Many paleo folks are every bit as in-your-face as the vegan stereotype. The diet is the diet, distinct from the person following it.

Vegan and true paleo diets are both potentially better environmentally than the standard american diet in at least three ways:

1. Less consumption of feedlot animals.
2. Less consumption, period.
3. More variety of vegetables and plant foods (a necessity to keep either diet "interesting"), so less emphasis on monoculture crops like wheat and soy.

beltim

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You point to todays farming practices to be unsafe.  This is very true, but there is an alternative to this.  Organics.  They remove the use of harmful chemicals from the food. 

This is not generally true.  Yes, there are some organic farms that do not use pesticides, but the vast majority are instead using "natural" pesticides which are often more harmful than synthetic pesticides.

Northwestie

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Fungus:

<>plant.
<>animal.

Fungus=fungus.

Drops mic.

....eukoryotes ok -- got it.  But the baked goods still taste like crap

GreenSheep

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But the baked goods still taste like crap

I'm genuinely curious, because I used to think the same thing. (And there are plenty of gross vegan baked goods out there, just as there are plenty of gross non-vegan baked goods.) What baked goods have you tried? Learning to bake and cook without animal products has been a long process for me, and I'm still learning, but there are lots of vegan baked goods that I love now. Some of that may be due to a change in my palate, but on the other hand, I send baked goods to my boyfriend's office occasionally, without a "vegan" label, and people love them. So maybe it's just a matter of trying some other vegan baked goods?