Environmentalists: Why don't I see more posts about being Vegan? (Seriously though)

[maizefolk]

....
Maybe though I should just drop the vegan idea and make it a predominantly unprocessed plant food based diet.

I think if you did this it would A) be more consistent with the data we actually have on how diet influences health B) save on a lot of time arguing and C) be more likely to convince people to make changes in their own lives since the message would be that there is a benefit (both health and environmental) to each unit of reduced meat consumption per week instead of "if you cannot give up meat entirely, just don't bother trying."

[steveo]

....
Maybe though I should just drop the vegan idea and make it a predominantly unprocessed plant food based diet.

I think if you did this it would A) be more consistent with the data we actually have on how diet influences health B) save on a lot of time arguing and C) be more likely to convince people to make changes in their own lives since the message would be that there is a benefit (both health and environmental) to each unit of reduced meat consumption per week instead of "if you cannot give up meat entirely, just don't bother trying."

It probably also makes more sense. Some meat is probably okay. I said this earlier in this thread as well. It's about moderation but moderation is probably 1-2 meat dishes maximum per week and those dishes should be more using meat as a flavouring.

I'm not sold on the environmental benefits though. What environmental issue would be helped with eating less meat. I don't even believe that global warming is occurring.

[abhe8]

I can agree with the benefits of a plant based unprocessed food diet. That is what we eat. Small amounts of milk, eggs, beef, pork and chicken come from our own or local grass fed free range animals, feed a non soy diet. We choose vegetarian when eating out or occasionally fish. But the overwhelming majority of our calories are plant based. I think the nutritional boost of our animal products is priceless. And fwiw, we all have excellent cholesterol profiles on this diet, so no Inc risk of heart disease there.

Eta: it is a very expensive way to eat, both in terms of money and time, but I feel our health is worth it and both dh and I enjoy the entire process. Gardening, cooking, canning. Kids love to help butcher the chickens and let me tell you, those chickens live a very happy life. :)

[Philociraptor]

And fwiw, we all have excellent cholesterol profiles on this diet, so no Inc risk of heart disease there.

Careful with this argument, I eat a pound of cooked meat and 3 large eggs per day and also have an excellent cholesterol profile, among other health markers.

[desertadapted]

Steveo, leaving aside climate change issues, if you are interested there's a fair bit of research available on the internet concerning the problem of groundwater depletion, and the relative water burdens of different agricultural uses.  As you can imagine, raising cattle is substantially more water intensive than a other agricultural uses.  There are also less water-burdensome meats (e.g., eggs, chicken).  But groundwater depletion is a very direct and tangible threat to agriculture (and in some smaller rural areas, to continued life itself -- see stories of towns with wells gone dry).  It is something to consider if you're wondering about meat (particularly beef) and the environment.  As noted repeatedly on the thread: moderation.   

[JoRocka]

....
Maybe though I should just drop the vegan idea and make it a predominantly unprocessed plant food based diet.

I think if you did this it would A) be more consistent with the data we actually have on how diet influences health B) save on a lot of time arguing and C) be more likely to convince people to make changes in their own lives since the message would be that there is a benefit (both health and environmental) to each unit of reduced meat consumption per week instead of "if you cannot give up meat entirely, just don't bother trying."

It probably also makes more sense. Some meat is probably okay. I said this earlier in this thread as well. It's about moderation but moderation is probably 1-2 meat dishes maximum per week and those dishes should be more using meat as a flavouring.

I'm not sold on the environmental benefits though. What environmental issue would be helped with eating less meat. I don't even believe that global warming is occurring.

It's hard to take you seriously when you keep saying this.  not going to lie.

[steveo]

....
Maybe though I should just drop the vegan idea and make it a predominantly unprocessed plant food based diet.

I think if you did this it would A) be more consistent with the data we actually have on how diet influences health B) save on a lot of time arguing and C) be more likely to convince people to make changes in their own lives since the message would be that there is a benefit (both health and environmental) to each unit of reduced meat consumption per week instead of "if you cannot give up meat entirely, just don't bother trying."

It probably also makes more sense. Some meat is probably okay. I said this earlier in this thread as well. It's about moderation but moderation is probably 1-2 meat dishes maximum per week and those dishes should be more using meat as a flavouring.

I'm not sold on the environmental benefits though. What environmental issue would be helped with eating less meat. I don't even believe that global warming is occurring.

It's hard to take you seriously when you keep saying this.  not going to lie.

I try to look at the facts objectively. I don't really care if you don't take me seriously. Do your own research and come to your own conclusions.

[steveo]

And fwiw, we all have excellent cholesterol profiles on this diet, so no Inc risk of heart disease there.

Careful with this argument, I eat a pound of cooked meat and 3 large eggs per day and also have an excellent cholesterol profile, among other health markers.

Sounds good but how long will it last. Truthfully you may get lucky. Diet is an odds thing. You are putting yourself at really bad odds of developing heart disease and/or cancer. It mightn't happen though. I hope it doesn't happen. I'm not willing personally though to take that risk.

[steveo]

Steveo, leaving aside climate change issues, if you are interested there's a fair bit of research available on the internet concerning the problem of groundwater depletion, and the relative water burdens of different agricultural uses.  As you can imagine, raising cattle is substantially more water intensive than a other agricultural uses.  There are also less water-burdensome meats (e.g., eggs, chicken).  But groundwater depletion is a very direct and tangible threat to agriculture (and in some smaller rural areas, to continued life itself -- see stories of towns with wells gone dry).  It is something to consider if you're wondering about meat (particularly beef) and the environment.  As noted repeatedly on the thread: moderation.

These are the type of localised environmental issues that I actually believe in. You can see the facts and the impact. I studied environmental studies at university and I always liked being able to see a direct clearly correlated issue. For instance burning bad coal does impact the air quality significantly.

[Philociraptor]

And fwiw, we all have excellent cholesterol profiles on this diet, so no Inc risk of heart disease there.

Careful with this argument, I eat a pound of cooked meat and 3 large eggs per day and also have an excellent cholesterol profile, among other health markers.

Sounds good but how long will it last. Truthfully you may get lucky. Diet is an odds thing. You are putting yourself at really bad odds of developing heart disease and/or cancer. It mightn't happen though. I hope it doesn't happen. I'm not willing though to take that risk.

So you continue to say ad nauseam. Not convinced myself.

[steveo]

And fwiw, we all have excellent cholesterol profiles on this diet, so no Inc risk of heart disease there.

Careful with this argument, I eat a pound of cooked meat and 3 large eggs per day and also have an excellent cholesterol profile, among other health markers.

Sounds good but how long will it last. Truthfully you may get lucky. Diet is an odds thing. You are putting yourself at really bad odds of developing heart disease and/or cancer. It mightn't happen though. I hope it doesn't happen. I'm not willing though to take that risk.

So you continue to say ad nauseam. Not convinced myself.

There is plenty of research out there. Read the link to the 7th day adventist diet as a starter. What I'm stating isn't based on any ethical or non-factual based opinion. It's based on well documented research. If you don't believe the statistics/data and the medical research that is your call.

[Philociraptor]

There is plenty of research out there. Read the link to the 7th day adventist diet as a starter. What I'm stating isn't based on any ethical or non-factual based opinion. It's based on well documented research. If you don't believe the statistics/data and the medical research that is your call.

The observational/population studies that are often thrown around do not convince me to change my diet. I've read many of them and am still not convinced that my diet of unprocessed meat (chicken > pork > seafood > beef), fruits, and veggies (little to no grains, dairy, sugar, or soy) is bad for me. Sorry.

[steveo]

There is plenty of research out there. Read the link to the 7th day adventist diet as a starter. What I'm stating isn't based on any ethical or non-factual based opinion. It's based on well documented research. If you don't believe the statistics/data and the medical research that is your call.

The observational/population studies that are often thrown around do not convince me to change my diet. I've read many of them and am still not convinced that my diet of unprocessed meat (chicken > pork > seafood > beef), fruits, and veggies (little to no grains, dairy, sugar, or soy) is bad for me. Sorry.

No need to apologise. Your beliefs do not correlate with the medical research regarding the health impacts of food that are backed up by demographical studies but that is your call.

[mm1970]

So are you saying that if someone is unsuccessful at being vegan, it is only because they are doing it incorrectly? That a person's location, biology, and gene expressions are irrelevant?

I went to great lengths to ensure a healthy diet when I was vegan, and yet it didn't work well for me.  I was not a "fries and soda" type of vegan, but rather someone who put a lot of thought and effort into what I choose to eat.
I have been an organic, biointensive, natural gardener for over thirty years.  My gardening efforts are a second full-time job.  I take just as much care when purchasing food. Yet you are saying that I am at fault because I wasn't successful?
 
This is exactly the kind of comment that causes harm to vegans - that if you can't be vegan, you are at fault.  If it isn't working, you are doing it wrong.  That there is a "middleman" that others are too lazy or ignorant to eliminate.

This alienates people, even those like me (a former vegan) who eats mostly vegetables and are very sympathetic.

Even the Dalai Lama occasionally eats meat.  Source: http://m.thestar.com/#/article/news/world/2010/10/16/the_dalai_lama_is_a_meateater.html

Well, unless you believe that there exists some sort of "miracle magic nutrients" that your body specifically needs, that other humans don't... yeah, you weren't consuming the nutrients humans need to be healthy. This is not some mystical process. Your body needs X amount of X nutrients, and you're either getting them or you're not. I'm not sure how this would even be up for debate.

It would be like someone running out of gas on a roadtrip and blaming the gas station they filled up at, rather than the fact that they only filled their tank up half way. This is not rocket science.

Except that genetics affects the body's ability to absorb various nutrients.  You may be able to absorb everything from food and vitamins and shots, but not everyone can.  There are vegans out there who insist that if you get sick you "aren't doing it right", which is offensive.

I have a vegetarian friend who was assuredly doing it right.  She got very sick.  She worked with her doctor, (and an alternative doctor eventually).  After attempting the shots, she was still not getting better (out of work for a year sick).  Finally her doctor just told her that her body was not absorbing the nutrients in the shots. She had to go back to eating meat (ethically raised, and not much of it), but it made a world of difference.

My long-time vegan friend started suffering some time after 40. Now, whether it was long-time depletion from 2 decades of veganism or just something about how the body absorbs nutrients differently as you age, I don't know.  This particular friend has her degree in nutrition from Columbia.  Healthiest eater I know (and she made the BEST food).  But after 40?  Started getting sick.  She eats eggs and fish now.

There's a lot that we don't know about vitamin and mineral absorption, and a whole host of other things.  "Eat more of X" if you have a deficiency doesn't work if your body doesn't absorb "X" as a pill or a shot.

[maco]

So are you saying that if someone is unsuccessful at being vegan, it is only because they are doing it incorrectly? That a person's location, biology, and gene expressions are irrelevant?

I went to great lengths to ensure a healthy diet when I was vegan, and yet it didn't work well for me.  I was not a "fries and soda" type of vegan, but rather someone who put a lot of thought and effort into what I choose to eat.
I have been an organic, biointensive, natural gardener for over thirty years.  My gardening efforts are a second full-time job.  I take just as much care when purchasing food. Yet you are saying that I am at fault because I wasn't successful?
 
This is exactly the kind of comment that causes harm to vegans - that if you can't be vegan, you are at fault.  If it isn't working, you are doing it wrong.  That there is a "middleman" that others are too lazy or ignorant to eliminate.

This alienates people, even those like me (a former vegan) who eats mostly vegetables and are very sympathetic.

Even the Dalai Lama occasionally eats meat.  Source: http://m.thestar.com/#/article/news/world/2010/10/16/the_dalai_lama_is_a_meateater.html

Well, unless you believe that there exists some sort of "miracle magic nutrients" that your body specifically needs, that other humans don't... yeah, you weren't consuming the nutrients humans need to be healthy. This is not some mystical process. Your body needs X amount of X nutrients, and you're either getting them or you're not. I'm not sure how this would even be up for debate.

It would be like someone running out of gas on a roadtrip and blaming the gas station they filled up at, rather than the fact that they only filled their tank up half way. This is not rocket science.

Except that genetics affects the body's ability to absorb various nutrients. 

Also: allergies.

When you're allergic to large swaths of plants (like Rosaceae or Solanaceae or both!) and wheat and soy... you end up without much room to be picky. "Hey, meat's one of like 5 things that isn't trying to kill me! Great! I'll eat it!" It absolutely can be impossible to be vegan in light of allergies and intolerances.

[Zikoris]

Except that genetics affects the body's ability to absorb various nutrients.  You may be able to absorb everything from food and vitamins and shots, but not everyone can.  There are vegans out there who insist that if you get sick you "aren't doing it right", which is offensive.

I have a vegetarian friend who was assuredly doing it right.  She got very sick.  She worked with her doctor, (and an alternative doctor eventually).  After attempting the shots, she was still not getting better (out of work for a year sick).  Finally her doctor just told her that her body was not absorbing the nutrients in the shots. She had to go back to eating meat (ethically raised, and not much of it), but it made a world of difference.

It seems like a bit of a stretch that someone could absorb more B12 from very occasional meat eating than regular high-dosage injections. That and B12 deficiency doesn't tend to cause symptoms at all (i.e. "getting very sick") - more like, nothing, nothing, nothing, BOOM mega nerve damage.

My long-time vegan friend started suffering some time after 40. Now, whether it was long-time depletion from 2 decades of veganism or just something about how the body absorbs nutrients differently as you age, I don't know.  This particular friend has her degree in nutrition from Columbia.  Healthiest eater I know (and she made the BEST food).  But after 40?  Started getting sick.  She eats eggs and fish now.

Someone's diet can LOOK healthy to outsiders, be totally organic, green, and lovely, and still be massively deficient in nutrients. But given that most people gradually lose their ability to absorb B12 from food (I believe the recommendation now is for ALL elderly people to supplement), it quite likely was simply a part of aging for her.

I would love to see a single, documented case of a person who actually had a condition that made them unable to absorb B12 from non-animal food AND supplements of any type, since I have yet to ever verify the existence of one. An awful lot of people who claim "I did everything right and still got sick!" seem to clam up pretty quickly when you actually start asking them what they ate specifically for B12 or whatever.

[mm1970]

Except that genetics affects the body's ability to absorb various nutrients.  You may be able to absorb everything from food and vitamins and shots, but not everyone can.  There are vegans out there who insist that if you get sick you "aren't doing it right", which is offensive.

I have a vegetarian friend who was assuredly doing it right.  She got very sick.  She worked with her doctor, (and an alternative doctor eventually).  After attempting the shots, she was still not getting better (out of work for a year sick).  Finally her doctor just told her that her body was not absorbing the nutrients in the shots. She had to go back to eating meat (ethically raised, and not much of it), but it made a world of difference.

It seems like a bit of a stretch that someone could absorb more B12 from very occasional meat eating than regular high-dosage injections. That and B12 deficiency doesn't tend to cause symptoms at all (i.e. "getting very sick") - more like, nothing, nothing, nothing, BOOM mega nerve damage.

My long-time vegan friend started suffering some time after 40. Now, whether it was long-time depletion from 2 decades of veganism or just something about how the body absorbs nutrients differently as you age, I don't know.  This particular friend has her degree in nutrition from Columbia.  Healthiest eater I know (and she made the BEST food).  But after 40?  Started getting sick.  She eats eggs and fish now.

Someone's diet can LOOK healthy to outsiders, be totally organic, green, and lovely, and still be massively deficient in nutrients. But given that most people gradually lose their ability to absorb B12 from food (I believe the recommendation now is for ALL elderly people to supplement), it quite likely was simply a part of aging for her.

I would love to see a single, documented case of a person who actually had a condition that made them unable to absorb B12 from non-animal food AND supplements of any type, since I have yet to ever verify the existence of one. An awful lot of people who claim "I did everything right and still got sick!" seem to clam up pretty quickly when you actually start asking them what they ate specifically for B12 or whatever.

I frankly don't give a flying fuck if you think it's a stretch.  THAT'S what's wrong with a certain percentage of vegans - "because it's not me, it's not real", and "if I don't see a peer reviewed study I'm not going to believe it".  Between my friend, and her doctor, THE SHOTS DIDN'T FUCKING WORK.  She degraded in health slowly.  She lost her JOB and lost her FIANCE and lost her HOUSE because she INSISTED that it couldn't possibly be her diet (vegetarian for 15 years).  It took a long time to get healthy again.

But hey, you won't believe it until you get a signed note from her doctor?


In the case of my vegan friend whose diet "looked" healthy, I'm going to trust that a woman with a degree in nutrition from a top university knows a shit-ton more than me, and knows how to balance her diet.  (This was her JOB.)

[Zikoris]

I frankly don't give a flying fuck if you think it's a stretch.  THAT'S what's wrong with a certain percentage of vegans - "because it's not me, it's not real", and "if I don't see a peer reviewed study I'm not going to believe it".  Between my friend, and her doctor, THE SHOTS DIDN'T FUCKING WORK.  She degraded in health slowly.  She lost her JOB and lost her FIANCE and lost her HOUSE because she INSISTED that it couldn't possibly be her diet (vegetarian for 15 years).  It took a long time to get healthy again.

But hey, you won't believe it until you get a signed note from her doctor?

And THIS is exactly what's wrong with a lot of anti-vegans - there are apparently a whole lot of mysterious vegan-induced illnesses that magically disappear when one eats meat, yet there's not a shred of evidence such conditions even exist. In 17 years vegan, I have yet to see a single definitive example of a condition requiring a person to consume animal products, where supplement/shots/sprays would not be an adequate alternative.

In the case of my vegan friend whose diet "looked" healthy, I'm going to trust that a woman with a degree in nutrition from a top university knows a shit-ton more than me, and knows how to balance her diet.  (This was her JOB.)

A lot of people know what they should be eating, but don't follow it very well. See: obesity rates. Regardless, she may well have just started losing her ability to absorb from food, like many people eventually do if they get old enough.

[Rezdent]

And THIS is exactly what's wrong with a lot of anti-vegans - there are apparently a whole lot of mysterious vegan-induced illnesses that magically disappear when one eats meat, yet there's not a shred of evidence such conditions even exist. In 17 years vegan, I have yet to see a single definitive example of a condition requiring a person to consume animal products, where supplement/shots/sprays would not be an adequate alternative.

Are you saying that if someone is not vegan, then they are anti-vegan by default?  Or you are saying someone is anti-vegan if they tried to be vegan, and then decided not to continue?

I am NOT anti-vegan.  I am a former vegan - who took B12 shots monthly for over a year.  My B12 levels went down during that year.
N=1, and ymmv, blah blah.

Even if shots/sprays worked 100%, people might just decide it's more natural to eat something else - and that is totally their decision and their right.  There are so many variables in human genetics and local environments that combinations are infinite, and science in this area is still very new.

If someone feels like shit on a vegan diet,  you believe that they should resort to shots or sprays? This sounds a bit at odds with a healthy, natural lifestyle. I think many people would choose a different diet instead.

I can't support belittling, labeling, or blaming people for their food choices. Smug asshattery helps no one and does a lot of harm to veganism.

For those who who want to live a vegan lifestyle, I will encourage them and help where I can.  If those people decide veganism isn't working for them, I'll support that too.

[Zikoris]

And THIS is exactly what's wrong with a lot of anti-vegans - there are apparently a whole lot of mysterious vegan-induced illnesses that magically disappear when one eats meat, yet there's not a shred of evidence such conditions even exist. In 17 years vegan, I have yet to see a single definitive example of a condition requiring a person to consume animal products, where supplement/shots/sprays would not be an adequate alternative.

Are you saying that if someone is not vegan, then they are anti-vegan by default?  Or you are saying someone is anti-vegan if they tried to be vegan, and then decided not to continue?

I am NOT anti-vegan.  I am a former vegan - who took B12 shots monthly for over a year.  My B12 levels went down during that year.
N=1, and ymmv, blah blah.

Even if shots/sprays worked 100%, people might just decide it's more natural to eat something else - and that is totally their decision and their right.  There are so many variables in human genetics and local environments that combinations are infinite, and science in this area is still very new.

If someone feels like shit on a vegan diet,  you believe that they should resort to shots or sprays? This sounds a bit at odds with a healthy, natural lifestyle. I think many people would choose a different diet instead.

I can't support belittling, labeling, or blaming people for their food choices. Smug asshattery helps no one and does a lot of harm to veganism.

For those who who want to live a vegan lifestyle, I will encourage them and help where I can.  If those people decide veganism isn't working for them, I'll support that too.

I'm not sure where you get most of that from. It's quite irrelevant to me what lifestyle choices any individual makes - I'm simply opposed to people spreading bullshit about vegan mystery illnesses that are magically cured by killing and eating an animal. Also bullshit about "I did everything right and it didn't work!" - that's not how biology (or math) works. You can quit being vegan because your dog told you to for all I care, but please don't spread misinformation.

[steveo]

And THIS is exactly what's wrong with a lot of anti-vegans - there are apparently a whole lot of mysterious vegan-induced illnesses that magically disappear when one eats meat, yet there's not a shred of evidence such conditions even exist. In 17 years vegan, I have yet to see a single definitive example of a condition requiring a person to consume animal products, where supplement/shots/sprays would not be an adequate alternative.

I don't think this post was meant to be attacking and I completely agree with this comment. As someone who wants to get information on the healthiest way to eat I want to actually hear about vegan diets lacking some sort of nutrition that you only get from meat. I think we know that in relation to B12 but to me this is such a trivial issue it's hardly worth bringing up. Of course we should note this issue but it's not a big issue in the scheme of eating healthily.

[DagobertDuck]

Vegan? I see no mention of veganism. I hear a lot about "environmentalism" but seriously, if you're not considering a plant based lifestyle, you're not an environmentalist. Now, argue all you want or defend eating meat, dairy and eggs, but you're not seeing the truth of the matter.

Thanks for bringing this up.
Consuming less meat and dairy was one of my new years resolutions, and it's going pretty well, eating very small portions of meat maybe 2 meals a week, a lot more nuts and beans, but I'm considering upping it a notch and going completely veggie.
Please inspire me to do it ;-)

[mm1970]

What exactly is an anti-vegan?  I ask, because I don't really know anyone who is anti-vegan.  Do you mean ex-vegan, or people who are offended by vegans?

I live in California, which is a pretty liberal pro-veg, pro-health, pro-vegan place.  I'm not anti-vegan.  I've got probably 20 vegan cookbooks and I love vegan food.  I have vegan friends.

If someone who has never been vegan is spreading information about "mysterious illnesses and lack of minerals" (or whatever), then of course, take that with a grain of salt.

However, if someone is an ex-vegan, or ex-vegetarian because they got sick - well then, I'm going to listen.  Am I going to probe to make sure they did it perfectly, or exactly right, or ???

No.  I trust that my friends, who were caring enough about animals and health to go veg or vegan in the first place, are going to do all they can to "stay the course".  And for all intents and purposes - they did - including (probably not limited to), talking to dietitians, doctors (of various types), attempting injections, tweaking their diets.  And...it didn't work.

A vegan suggesting that they "didn't do it right" is ridiculous and maddening because ... they weren't there.  All this nonsense of "I've never seen a documented case"...like a doctor working with one or two patients who have the issue is going to write a paper on it.  I mean, really.  Pretty ridiculous.  We aren't talking university doctors or large medical centers where they are running studies.  We are talking a doctor at the local clinic seeing a regular patient.  Or perhaps a specialist who took over on referral.

So what is "enough"?  Is it a year?  Is a year of poor health and loss of a job enough?  Should it be two years?  It's sort of like the sliding scale of breastfeeding, and the breastfeeding nazis.  "Try this", "Try that", "did you do this?" "did you try that?"  "Clearly you are doing it wrong."  "Oh, you aren't making enough milk?  You are probably lying.  You are too lazy.  Don't give formula.  That's a cop out.  If you nurse and pump every hour and take X/Y/Z you'll make enough milk."  Blah blah blah.

Fact of the matter is, everyone has an opinion, and it's up to the individual to decide that enough is enough.  If the baby has lost a dangerous amount of weight, it's a no brainer.  Give them formula.  If you've been sick for months or years, and shots don't work, try meat.  Does it work?  Great.

[Zikoris]

What exactly is an anti-vegan?  I ask, because I don't really know anyone who is anti-vegan.  Do you mean ex-vegan, or people who are offended by vegans?

I live in California, which is a pretty liberal pro-veg, pro-health, pro-vegan place.  I'm not anti-vegan.  I've got probably 20 vegan cookbooks and I love vegan food.  I have vegan friends.

If someone who has never been vegan is spreading information about "mysterious illnesses and lack of minerals" (or whatever), then of course, take that with a grain of salt.

However, if someone is an ex-vegan, or ex-vegetarian because they got sick - well then, I'm going to listen.  Am I going to probe to make sure they did it perfectly, or exactly right, or ???

No.  I trust that my friends, who were caring enough about animals and health to go veg or vegan in the first place, are going to do all they can to "stay the course".  And for all intents and purposes - they did - including (probably not limited to), talking to dietitians, doctors (of various types), attempting injections, tweaking their diets.  And...it didn't work.

A vegan suggesting that they "didn't do it right" is ridiculous and maddening because ... they weren't there.  All this nonsense of "I've never seen a documented case"...like a doctor working with one or two patients who have the issue is going to write a paper on it.  I mean, really.  Pretty ridiculous.  We aren't talking university doctors or large medical centers where they are running studies.  We are talking a doctor at the local clinic seeing a regular patient.  Or perhaps a specialist who took over on referral.

So what is "enough"?  Is it a year?  Is a year of poor health and loss of a job enough?  Should it be two years?  It's sort of like the sliding scale of breastfeeding, and the breastfeeding nazis.  "Try this", "Try that", "did you do this?" "did you try that?"  "Clearly you are doing it wrong."  "Oh, you aren't making enough milk?  You are probably lying.  You are too lazy.  Don't give formula.  That's a cop out.  If you nurse and pump every hour and take X/Y/Z you'll make enough milk."  Blah blah blah.

Fact of the matter is, everyone has an opinion, and it's up to the individual to decide that enough is enough.  If the baby has lost a dangerous amount of weight, it's a no brainer.  Give them formula.  If you've been sick for months or years, and shots don't work, try meat.  Does it work?  Great.

Maybe your friend or neighbour might not be the documented case, but veganism has been around long enough, and has been studied to death, yet no "mystery illness" has ever been found. I've also met SO many people (vegan and not) who have sworn up and down that they were eating great, and quite possibly believed it, yet when I actually paid attention to what they ate, it was pretty clear why they had problems.

Let me reiterate - I do not care what someone's reason is for going back to eating meat. If you want to switch because your dog, a little passing bird, or your imaginary friend tells you to, then rock on. I'm only opposed to inventing mystery vegan-induced illnesses to absolve oneself of responsibility.

[mm1970]

Maybe your friend or neighbour might not be the documented case, but veganism has been around long enough, and has been studied to death, yet no "mystery illness" has ever been found. I've also met SO many people (vegan and not) who have sworn up and down that they were eating great, and quite possibly believed it, yet when I actually paid attention to what they ate, it was pretty clear why they had problems.

Let me reiterate - I do not care what someone's reason is for going back to eating meat. If you want to switch because your dog, a little passing bird, or your imaginary friend tells you to, then rock on. I'm only opposed to inventing mystery vegan-induced illnesses to absolve oneself of responsibility.

You say you don't care what someone's reason is, but you are intentionally being a jerk about it when you say "your dog, a little passing bird" as if it's not real.  It's offensive and snotty and shows a genuine lack of compassion.  (someone above used the term "asshat", I believe).  If you REALLY didn't care, you wouldn't suggest that any reason given simply HAS to be bogus.

The fact of the matter is, people are different.  Genetics are different.  You cannot find a "mystery illness" for vegans for many reasons - including that veganism is relatively "new" (there are no long term vegan indigenous populations, so good luck getting a lot of data), and because people are different.  While I have no doubt that a vegan diet can work and be healthy for many - it's unlikely that it will be healthy for everyone.  For the same types of reasons that people have allergies, celiac, problems with dairy, etc. -  and they respond to foods differently.  Not to mention the newer research into gut bacteria.  I've got friends with Crohns, Celiac, allergies to dairy and nuts, etc.  Pretty interesting stuff.

Not everyone absorbs nutrients in the same way.  That's pretty clear.  You only have to read a little bit about insulin, blood sugar and diabetes to realize that.  Same food can cause blood sugar to spike in person A, but not person B.  Likewise, person A can maintain their iron and B12 levels with shots or pills, and person B cannot. 

For some reason, my vegetarian friend could not maintain her B12 and iron levels with shots and pills.  It simply didn't work.  At this point, she'd been sick for a long time, and had been working with professionals, actual professionals, on how to increase her levels first with diet, then will supplements.  Calling it a "mystery illness that her imaginary friend told her about" is fucking offensive.  It's not a mystery.  After well over a year of suffering and trying a variety of solutions, she introduced a bit of meat a couple of times per week and her levels came back.  Not mysterious at all when you've got the data staring right back at you.

I'm an engineer.  I like data and statistics, but I am also a big fan of experimentation.  I run experiments for a living.  If what you are doing now isn't working?  Try something else.  See how that works.  Especially if you are getting help from actual medical professionals.

[coppertop]

I listen to Joel Furhman, M.D. on CD in my car and I have learned a lot from him.  While he advocates strongly for a vegan lifestyle, he is also a scientist who cites his sources and really appears to me to know what he is talking about.  He states on one of the CD's that I have that there are some individuals who need a very small amount of animal products to thrive.  He doesn't go into great detail about this, so I don't know what conditions would qualify, but I don't believe he would say it if it weren't true, because he really believes in veganism for most people. 

[Zikoris]

Maybe your friend or neighbour might not be the documented case, but veganism has been around long enough, and has been studied to death, yet no "mystery illness" has ever been found. I've also met SO many people (vegan and not) who have sworn up and down that they were eating great, and quite possibly believed it, yet when I actually paid attention to what they ate, it was pretty clear why they had problems.

Let me reiterate - I do not care what someone's reason is for going back to eating meat. If you want to switch because your dog, a little passing bird, or your imaginary friend tells you to, then rock on. I'm only opposed to inventing mystery vegan-induced illnesses to absolve oneself of responsibility.

You say you don't care what someone's reason is, but you are intentionally being a jerk about it when you say "your dog, a little passing bird" as if it's not real.  It's offensive and snotty and shows a genuine lack of compassion.  (someone above used the term "asshat", I believe).  If you REALLY didn't care, you wouldn't suggest that any reason given simply HAS to be bogus.

I'm the contrary - I'm saying that even VERY flimsy reasons ARE legitimate. You can quit being vegan because you simply feel like it one day, or because your family or spouse wants you to. You can quit being vegan to support local animal farmers. You can quit being vegan because you decide you hate animals and want to kill as many of them as possible. You can quit for a "good reason", a "bad reason", or anything in between. just don't invent medical conditions and lie to yourself. Until there's some actual evidence for any such medical condition (and there has been TONS of research on vegans for decades), any rational person would question its existence.

[NoraLenderbee]

MM1970's friend had a health problem that went away after she began eating animal products. We don't know the mechanism, and neither does her doctor. We don't know for sure whether the problem was caused by veganism or cured by the change in diet, but we know they coincided.

"I see this and I don't know why it happened" is where science begins. It is not at all the same thing as making up an imaginary illness. It's very obnoxious to accuse someone of having imaginary friends simply because they observed a phenomenon that they can't completely explain.

[partgypsy]

someone in my department was a vegan. I was surprised a couple months ago to see her preparing chicken for lunch. She told me she developed (health condition) and was advised to change diet, so she did, reluctantly. So it can happen.

[golden1]

Jesus, no wonder people hate vegans.  It's worse than religion.  How can people who eat only plants be so full of hate?

Justify eating vegan all you want, but to blame other people who have tried the lifestyle and have become ill?  Why is it so important that you be right about that?  We didn't evolve vegan so it makes sense that people may have trouble digesting and extracting certain nutrients from food.  Look at lactose tolerance/intolerance or celiac disease. 

[Mr. Green]

Now that we have Soylent, veganism is no longer good enough to claim being an environmentalist (tongue in cheek).

[Zikoris]

Jesus, no wonder people hate vegans.  It's worse than religion.  How can people who eat only plants be so full of hate?

Justify eating vegan all you want, but to blame other people who have tried the lifestyle and have become ill?  Why is it so important that you be right about that?  We didn't evolve vegan so it makes sense that people may have trouble digesting and extracting certain nutrients from food.  Look at lactose tolerance/intolerance or celiac disease.

It's interesting that to you "skepticism about dubious medical claims with no supporting documentation or evidence, despite extensive research" = "full of hate". I call it being a rational person. If this mystery disease exists, show me the evidence.

[robartsd]

My research in permaculture indicates that animals are essential to a food growing ecosystem, so there is no environmental harm in eating what they can provide. I agree that most of the meat consumed by most of western society is very costly to the environment. Feedlots are horrible for the animals, horrible for the environment, and horrible for our health. Sustainable, local, pastured animal products are not an environmental problem but they do cost significantly more than their feedlot counterparts. A major reason for this cost difference is government subsidized grain production and environmental externalities that are not included in the consumer price of the feedlot products.

[Mr. Green]

It's interesting that to you "skepticism about dubious medical claims with no supporting documentation or evidence, despite extensive research" = "full of hate". I call it being a rational person. If this mystery disease exists, show me the evidence.

LOL. There are tons of diseases we know nothing about. Doctors are stumped by stuff all the time.

[Zikoris]

It's interesting that to you "skepticism about dubious medical claims with no supporting documentation or evidence, despite extensive research" = "full of hate". I call it being a rational person. If this mystery disease exists, show me the evidence.

LOL. There are tons of diseases we know nothing about. Doctors are stumped by stuff all the time.

Sure, and we call out people who try to make up causes for said diseases without evidence. I call out bullshit armchair-doctor diagnoses all the time, vegan or otherwise. One of my "favourites" was when my aunt decided that me letting my cat sleep on my lap had caused a small, benign mouth tumor that I had to have removed many years ago. I don't even remember the warped logic she used.

[JoRocka]

I listen to Joel Furhman, M.D. on CD in my car and I have learned a lot from him.  While he advocates strongly for a vegan lifestyle, he is also a scientist who cites his sources and really appears to me to know what he is talking about.  He states on one of the CD's that I have that there are some individuals who need a very small amount of animal products to thrive.  He doesn't go into great detail about this, so I don't know what conditions would qualify, but I don't believe he would say it if it weren't true, because he really believes in veganism for most people.

If my memory serves me correctly he's a quakadoo.

[GuitarStv]

Jesus, no wonder people hate vegans.  It's worse than religion.  How can people who eat only plants be so full of hate?

Justify eating vegan all you want, but to blame other people who have tried the lifestyle and have become ill?  Why is it so important that you be right about that?  We didn't evolve vegan so it makes sense that people may have trouble digesting and extracting certain nutrients from food.  Look at lactose tolerance/intolerance or celiac disease.

It's interesting that to you "skepticism about dubious medical claims with no supporting documentation or evidence, despite extensive research" = "full of hate". I call it being a rational person. If this mystery disease exists, show me the evidence.

This study outlines a lot of benefits, and some concerns regarding a vegan diet:  http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/5/1627S.full

Listed among the concerns:
- Vitamin D intake is likely to be unhealthily low if you live in a colder climate where exposure to the sun is limited for part of the year (specifically studied were vegans in Finland, who showed loss of spinal bone mass density due to a vegan diet).  Vitamin D supplementation is strongly recommended.
- DHA supplementation (or eating foods specifically fortified with DHA) is recommended for health when following a vegan diet since the plant version is not well converted by the human body.  This is responsible for healthy eye, brain, and heart function.
- Vegans typically have lower plasma vitamin B-12 concentrations, higher prevalence of vitamin B-12 deficiency, and higher concentrations of plasma homocysteine.  For this reason, B-12 supplementation (or consumption of foods fortified with b-12) is recommended while following a vegan diet.
- Veganism causes low serum ferritin concentrations.  Currently we don't know what the effect of this is.
- Zinc absorbtion is lower in vegans due to phytates commonly eaten.  Currently, we don't know what the effect of this is, but there may be a protective compensatory effect that takes place in vegans.  It's still recommended that vegans eat foods high in zinc.

Given the above, it doesn't sound unreasonable that someone could have trouble adhering to a vegan diet.  It sounds somewhat easy to screw it up honestly.

[JoRocka]

....
Maybe though I should just drop the vegan idea and make it a predominantly unprocessed plant food based diet.

I think if you did this it would A) be more consistent with the data we actually have on how diet influences health B) save on a lot of time arguing and C) be more likely to convince people to make changes in their own lives since the message would be that there is a benefit (both health and environmental) to each unit of reduced meat consumption per week instead of "if you cannot give up meat entirely, just don't bother trying."

It probably also makes more sense. Some meat is probably okay. I said this earlier in this thread as well. It's about moderation but moderation is probably 1-2 meat dishes maximum per week and those dishes should be more using meat as a flavouring.

I'm not sold on the environmental benefits though. What environmental issue would be helped with eating less meat. I don't even believe that global warming is occurring.

It's hard to take you seriously when you keep saying this.  not going to lie.

I try to look at the facts objectively. I don't really care if you don't take me seriously. Do your own research and come to your own conclusions.

I did- that's why it's hard to take you seriously if you keep saying global warming isn't a thing when there are many many indicators that say it is.

I work in the dredging industry- and I can tell you on first hand sea level rise and abnormal weather are real- and present and affect our industry.  Both of them can be directly associated with global warming.

[mm1970]

Jesus, no wonder people hate vegans.  It's worse than religion.  How can people who eat only plants be so full of hate?

Justify eating vegan all you want, but to blame other people who have tried the lifestyle and have become ill?  Why is it so important that you be right about that?  We didn't evolve vegan so it makes sense that people may have trouble digesting and extracting certain nutrients from food.  Look at lactose tolerance/intolerance or celiac disease.

It's interesting that to you "skepticism about dubious medical claims with no supporting documentation or evidence, despite extensive research" = "full of hate". I call it being a rational person. If this mystery disease exists, show me the evidence.

Why does there have to be a "mystery disease"?  There are many medical mysteries, diseases, etc. that we are learning more about all the time. 

There are always going to be people who are sick, or unwell, for an unknown reason.  My friend was sick.  She was unable to get well on her diet.  All of the medical knowledge was able to tell her that her levels of B12 and iron were too low.  All of the medical knowledge suggested supplementation to bring her levels back up.  Supplementation did not work.  Her levels did not come up.

However eating meat brought her levels up.  It's pretty simple.  It's not a "mysterious disease", her iron and B12 were too low.

The medical community doesn't have to know, right this minute, *why* supplementation works for some, and not for others.  Isn't that how medical advancement happens?  Hmmm...weird, this person has this problem, I wonder why?  Celiac, lactose intolerances, syphillis, Zika, Guillian-Barre, Lyme disease... pretty fascinating when you look at medical advancement over the decades.

[mm1970]

MM1970's friend had a health problem that went away after she began eating animal products. We don't know the mechanism, and neither does her doctor. We don't know for sure whether the problem was caused by veganism or cured by the change in diet, but we know they coincided.

"I see this and I don't know why it happened" is where science begins. It is not at all the same thing as making up an imaginary illness. It's very obnoxious to accuse someone of having imaginary friends simply because they observed a phenomenon that they can't completely explain.

This was very nicely put.

[Mr. Green]

It's interesting that to you "skepticism about dubious medical claims with no supporting documentation or evidence, despite extensive research" = "full of hate". I call it being a rational person. If this mystery disease exists, show me the evidence.

LOL. There are tons of diseases we know nothing about. Doctors are stumped by stuff all the time.

Sure, and we call out people who try to make up causes for said diseases without evidence. I call out bullshit armchair-doctor diagnoses all the time, vegan or otherwise. One of my "favourites" was when my aunt decided that me letting my cat sleep on my lap had caused a small, benign mouth tumor that I had to have removed many years ago. I don't even remember the warped logic she used.

I'm not following your logic. If I start eating a certain diet (regardless of what it is), only to find my health deteriorating, and then reverse course and get better, the diagnosis is staring me in the face. But you would eat yourself to death because there was no study that says what you're doing might harm you? That's....cool? *shrug*

[Zikoris]

It's interesting that to you "skepticism about dubious medical claims with no supporting documentation or evidence, despite extensive research" = "full of hate". I call it being a rational person. If this mystery disease exists, show me the evidence.

LOL. There are tons of diseases we know nothing about. Doctors are stumped by stuff all the time.

Sure, and we call out people who try to make up causes for said diseases without evidence. I call out bullshit armchair-doctor diagnoses all the time, vegan or otherwise. One of my "favourites" was when my aunt decided that me letting my cat sleep on my lap had caused a small, benign mouth tumor that I had to have removed many years ago. I don't even remember the warped logic she used.

I'm not following your logic. If I start eating a certain diet (regardless of what it is), only to find my health deteriorating, and then reverse course and get better, the diagnosis is staring me in the face. But you would eat yourself to death because there was no study that says what you're doing might harm you? That's....cool? *shrug*

Well, no, the diagnosis is not staring you in the face. I mean, it proves that you weren't consuming/absorbing the nutrients your body needs, but that doesn't say anything about the diet itself. You could screw up pretty much any diet under the sun. There was an article in the local paper a few years ago about some local university students who managed to give themselves scurvy by  literally not eating a single food or supplement containing Vitamin C for months. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with, say, the "University Diet"(i.e. food provided in the meal hall), just that those people did it wrong.

[Mr. Green]

It's interesting that to you "skepticism about dubious medical claims with no supporting documentation or evidence, despite extensive research" = "full of hate". I call it being a rational person. If this mystery disease exists, show me the evidence.

LOL. There are tons of diseases we know nothing about. Doctors are stumped by stuff all the time.

Sure, and we call out people who try to make up causes for said diseases without evidence. I call out bullshit armchair-doctor diagnoses all the time, vegan or otherwise. One of my "favourites" was when my aunt decided that me letting my cat sleep on my lap had caused a small, benign mouth tumor that I had to have removed many years ago. I don't even remember the warped logic she used.

I'm not following your logic. If I start eating a certain diet (regardless of what it is), only to find my health deteriorating, and then reverse course and get better, the diagnosis is staring me in the face. But you would eat yourself to death because there was no study that says what you're doing might harm you? That's....cool? *shrug*

Well, no, the diagnosis is not staring you in the face. I mean, it proves that you weren't consuming/absorbing the nutrients your body needs, but that doesn't say anything about the diet itself. You could screw up pretty much any diet under the sun. There was an article in the local paper a few years ago about some local university students who managed to give themselves scurvy by  literally not eating a single food or supplement containing Vitamin C for months. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with, say, the "University Diet"(i.e. food provided in the meal hall), just that those people did it wrong.

So one person's bad experience with a particular diet is only valid to you if s/he gave you their log of foods eaten for the year so you know they didn't "do it wrong?" Statistically, there has to be a least 1 person out of 7+ billion that a given diet doesn't work for.

[mashrach]

I haven't seen a properly controlled study that shows that a vegan diet leads to a longer life than a healthy diet that includes animal products. I've seen the studies where they compare the health of vegetarians to non-vegetarians without controlling for the fact that the non-vegetarians may smoke, or drink soda, or eat at McDonald's every day. I discount these studies because someone who chooses a vegan or vegetarian diet often does so for what they believe are health benefits so are probably making healthy choices in other areas. I eat lots of meat and lots of eggs and I'm in very good health, lean, low BMI and I know if I choose a largely meat and plant and nut based diet I feel much better than if I eat a diet that has lots of grains and carbs. With grains and carbs I develop stomach issues, pass gas all day long (car rides with me are fun), have GI issues and develop bacne which is attractive in the summer. If I go only plant based I turn into a tall, gaunt string bean. So for me a meat/plant based diet makes the most sense. I've read that responsible animal grazing practices and local meat purchases are not much more if any more damaging to the environment than clear cutting forests to plant crops, but it's not something I've researched much. Honestly I think the worse thing you can do environmentally is travel on an airplane, so if you're a vegetarian that flies a lot I'll curse you while cooking up a steak tonight.

[JCfire]

Finally- for me- long life is not something to aspire to.I realize that is not true for many people- but for me- I do not want to live longer- so this crap about "it'll make you live longer" doesn't apply to me personally-  I hate the idea of extending my life past the age of 70.  I'm 100% NOT interested in it. I'm not scared of dying. I'm scared of living and being able to not live. SO thanks- no thanks- I'll take my lumps- live an awesome life now- and die earlier.

Extending a life into my 90's is just not a goal of mine. So- load me up on the Brazilian all you can eat steak house please and thank you.

Haha, I agree.  I was fortunate to see all of my grandparents reach well into their 80s, and quality of life just seems to fall off a cliff after about 75.  Dying as a vegan at 90 versus a meat eater at 73 ain't even a choice.  Pass the bacon.

Isn't it quite likely that diets which extend one's lifespan would also improve the quality of life potential at a given (old) age?  I would imagine that the quality of life of a 75 year old who will live to be 100 is quite a bit better on average than the quality of life of a 75 year old who will live to 77.

[steveo]

I listen to Joel Furhman, M.D. on CD in my car and I have learned a lot from him.  While he advocates strongly for a vegan lifestyle, he is also a scientist who cites his sources and really appears to me to know what he is talking about.  He states on one of the CD's that I have that there are some individuals who need a very small amount of animal products to thrive.  He doesn't go into great detail about this, so I don't know what conditions would qualify, but I don't believe he would say it if it weren't true, because he really believes in veganism for most people.

I like this guy a lot as well. I don't think he really promotes a vegan diet but he promotes typically no meat and a massive amount of nutritious plant based foods. The line he used is also pretty important - "a very small amount of animal products". I also don't think he frets about having some meat. It's about how much meat you are having.

[steveo]

Jesus, no wonder people hate vegans.  It's worse than religion.  How can people who eat only plants be so full of hate?

Justify eating vegan all you want, but to blame other people who have tried the lifestyle and have become ill?  Why is it so important that you be right about that?  We didn't evolve vegan so it makes sense that people may have trouble digesting and extracting certain nutrients from food.  Look at lactose tolerance/intolerance or celiac disease.

It's interesting that to you "skepticism about dubious medical claims with no supporting documentation or evidence, despite extensive research" = "full of hate". I call it being a rational person. If this mystery disease exists, show me the evidence.

Where are these "full of hate" comments comings from. I also just want to have a rational discussion. Facts are what I'm interested in.

These types of comments are just palava as well:- "We didn't evolve vegan so it makes sense that people may have trouble digesting and extracting certain nutrients from food.  Look at lactose tolerance/intolerance or celiac disease."

It's not factual. To add to that the amount of people that are gluten free compared to the amount of people with celiac disease is massively out of proportion. This proves why it's very difficult to go off the way people feel who diagnose themselves. A lot of people state that have gluten allergies but they don't. Humans deceive themselves all the time.

[Digital Dogma]

....
Maybe though I should just drop the vegan idea and make it a predominantly unprocessed plant food based diet.

I think if you did this it would A) be more consistent with the data we actually have on how diet influences health B) save on a lot of time arguing and C) be more likely to convince people to make changes in their own lives since the message would be that there is a benefit (both health and environmental) to each unit of reduced meat consumption per week instead of "if you cannot give up meat entirely, just don't bother trying."

It probably also makes more sense. Some meat is probably okay. I said this earlier in this thread as well. It's about moderation but moderation is probably 1-2 meat dishes maximum per week and those dishes should be more using meat as a flavouring.

I'm not sold on the environmental benefits though. What environmental issue would be helped with eating less meat. I don't even believe that global warming is occurring.

It's hard to take you seriously when you keep saying this.  not going to lie.

I try to look at the facts objectively. I don't really care if you don't take me seriously. Do your own research and come to your own conclusions.

I did- that's why it's hard to take you seriously if you keep saying global warming isn't a thing when there are many many indicators that say it is.

I work in the dredging industry- and I can tell you on first hand sea level rise and abnormal weather are real- and present and affect our industry.  Both of them can be directly associated with global warming.

Its basic really, greenhouse gasses tend to absorb and re-emit heat (blackbody radiation) instead of allowing it to escape into space. This causes a warmer climate. Because our eyes are shit, and we can't see that wavelength, its obvious why someone wouldn't believe what they can't see. Unfortunately, the eye witness is probably the least reliable method of establishing a fact, so its a flawed approach to begin with.

One thing is obvious, we are changing the ocean climate by increasing CO2 levels which leads to acidification. This is going to happen whether you believe in climate change or not, pH measurements show a clear trend, human emissions have already changed the climate measurably.

Bringing this foam back on the topic of food and diet - shellfish may become a thing of the past when they can't precipitate calcium out of acidic ocean water in the future.

[steveo]

So one person's bad experience with a particular diet is only valid to you if s/he gave you their log of foods eaten for the year so you know they didn't "do it wrong?" Statistically, there has to be a least 1 person out of 7+ billion that a given diet doesn't work for.

Maybe but you still need some evidence and why is this story being told on here. We just happened to meet that person.

I'm not even doubting the story and maybe that person was missing some iron or whatever in their diet that they only get from eating liver and they have to eat that liver once per year. I don't know. The point is that you want some more detailed facts.

I also think these types of comments are missing the big point. Lots and lots and lots of people are dying from cancer and heart disease from eating too much eat and crappy food. So lets compare statistical anomalies in certain situations of eating a non-processed predominantly plant based diet to the massive amount of people dying from cancer and heart disease and state well a vegan diet doesn't work. To me it's a stupid argument.

I also understand and accept that some people who choose to eat a proven healthy diet will still get cancer and maybe even heart disease. The odds though are significantly lower.

[Mr. Green]

So one person's bad experience with a particular diet is only valid to you if s/he gave you their log of foods eaten for the year so you know they didn't "do it wrong?" Statistically, there has to be a least 1 person out of 7+ billion that a given diet doesn't work for.

Maybe but you still need some evidence and why is this story being told on here. We just happened to meet that person.

I'm not even doubting the story and maybe that person was missing some iron or whatever in their diet that they only get from eating liver and they have to eat that liver once per year. I don't know. The point is that you want some more detailed facts.

I also think these types of comments are missing the big point. Lots and lots and lots of people are dying from cancer and heart disease from eating too much eat and crappy food. So lets compare statistical anomalies in certain situations of eating a non-processed predominantly plant based diet to the massive amount of people dying from cancer and heart disease and state well a vegan diet doesn't work. To me it's a stupid argument.

I also understand and accept that some people who choose to eat a proven healthy diet will still get cancer and maybe even heart disease. The odds though are significantly lower.

I find the whole line of questioning hilarious because it's like soliciting opinions, then when someone tells you about a bad experience they had, another friend in the conversation becomes the Spanish Inquisition and tells them they must have done it wrong because they can't provide you with a scientific study about why exactly their experience was bad. It would be like me saying I don't give blood any more because I had a couple bad experiences with it and someone telling me I must have been doing it wrong because there are no studies that show giving blood might result in a bad experience. That's funny!