Entitlement in kids and how to deal with it?

[FiguringItOut]

I have two tween kids who seem to think that they are entitled to things and gifts and whatnot. 

The older one got books she asked for (she had a long list of books, we got a set of books from that list and her aunt got another set from that list) and t-shirts with her favorite bands and TV shows for Hanukkah.  Never even said thank you, but was complaining about not getting the rest of the books.  Then was lamenting that she hates Christmas because all her non-Jewish friends are getting all these extravagant gifts and all she got was books and t-shirts and few other whatnots, which included more t-shirts , poster, and pillow case, all picked out by her from her grandparents.  When she was complaining about the lack of other books, I did tell her that I would be very happy to return these books back to amazon, as she doesn't seem to be appreciative for them and couldn't even be bothered to say thank you.  That got her to stop complaining, but didn't get to be appreciative or thankful.

The younger one, who got her favorite stuffed toys, video game, and a whole bunch of science kits (which she loves) just came into my room saying that two of her best friends just informed her that they both got iPhone 6 for Christmas.  My only reaction was "So?..." She said nothing, but I could see the envy in her. 

The question is, how do I deal with this going forward?  I have no intention to be keeping up with their friends, but I also feel like I basically threw money in the garbage buying these presents for the older one. 

I'll say that we are not a mustacian household, but we do have a budget and both kids know that I stick to the budget like white on rice. 

[Cassie]

My kids are now adults but when they were the age of yours I would have them do an xmas list with one big gift they really wanted & then some small things.  They also knew the amount I would spend on the big gift so knew to ask in line with that.  Of course there were not all the fancy electronic gadgets like there are now but still some kids got some pretty expensive things that mine did not.  although, what we got our kids was pretty much in line with what our friends did. 

[Workinghard]

When our son was growing up, he would pick the name of a boy his age off an angel tree and we would get presents for that boy. He also did various things like go to nursing homes, help foster children, and go on mission trips. If there had been a soup kitchen close to us, he would have done that too. Unfortunately, American children often have a sense of entitlement unless parents make a concerted effort otherwise.

[FiguringItOut]

My kids are now adults but when they were the age of yours I would have them do an xmas list with one big gift they really wanted & then some small things.  They also knew the amount I would spend on the big gift so knew to ask in line with that.  Of course there were not all the fancy electronic gadgets like there are now but still some kids got some pretty expensive things that mine did not.  although, what we got our kids was pretty much in line with what our friends did.

Well, both of them made lists of things they wanted.  The older one had a ton of books on her list.  It was clear that she's not getting the whole lists, but we will pick something from there.  I also told her aunt what was on that list, so the aunt picked books from kid's list as well.  Everything that younger one got was also from her lists. 

They both also know that for a fact that there were not going to be new electronics or anything like that.  It simply was not in the budget. 

Interestingly, I had a whole budget discussion with the older one a few weeks ago (she initiated the conversation) about how the budget works, and  how it is important to make sure that you cover the four walls first, and then you can spread the rest over other things that you need/want.  I also talked about how it is important to have saving categories for various things and emergencies.  The funny thing is, while we were having that conversation and were talking about savings and emergencies at the local coffee shop (budgeted for), I got a txt from husband saying that our dryer died. So I showed her the txt and said that because we have an emergency fund, this is ok and not really an emergency.  But if we didn't have savings/emergency fund, this would've been really bad situation. 

It boggles my mind that after all that she was pouting about only getting some of her requested books.

[FiguringItOut]

When our son was growing up, he would pick the name of a boy his age off an angel tree and we would get presents for that boy. He also did various things like go to nursing homes, help foster children, and go on mission trips. If there had been a soup kitchen close to us, he would have done that too. Unfortunately, American children often have a sense of entitlement unless parents make a concerted effort otherwise.

I think this is a great idea.  Not sure it would be easy to implement at my house though.  I've mentioned to the older kid that since she is so interested in gay-rights we can volunteer for something at the local GBLT center for one of their kid oriented events.  She didn't want to hear about it.  Unfortunately, I don't have a whole lot of pull when the other parent is either indifferent or is pulling in a completely different, and more fun, direction. 

[Zamboni]

Just start saying "no" . . . a lot.  This works best if you are not buying a bunch of frivolous stuff for adults either.  It does take awhile to work, because your daughter is suffering from a serious case of relative deprivation (explained best by Malcolm Gladwell in his interesting book David and Goliath.)

And make sure your kids have friends from very diverse income levels. Somehow middle class society seems to frown on this, and that leads to the problem because middle class and certainly most rich people are going to buy their kids a lot of the latest trendy useless crap.  Cue a bad case of relative deprivation.  Whole exclusionary neighborhoods are founded upon the "good schools" idea, which in reality usually means no poor kids.  My son is quite used to hearing no, and he's always gone to a diverse school, which is good, but his eyes were really opened up over the past couple of years by playing on a AAU basketball team with kids from much more modest circumstances.  It makes it pretty easy to point out that even having a pet is quite a luxury when your kids have some good friends who have never been inside a pet store in their entire lives.  Just an example.

Also, try to surround them every day with the idea that they have enough.  Who has got it great today?  WE DO!

[iwasjustwondering]

Just start saying "no" . . . a lot.  This works best if you are not buying a bunch of frivolous stuff for adults either.  It does take awhile to work, because your daughter is suffering from a serious case of relative deprivation (explained best by Malcolm Gladwell in his interesting book David and Goliath.)

And make sure your kids have friends from very diverse income levels. Somehow middle class society seems to frown on this, and that leads to the problem because middle class and certainly most rich people are going to buy their kids a lot of the latest trendy useless crap.  Cue a bad case of relative deprivation.  Whole exclusionary neighborhoods are founded upon the "good schools" idea, which in reality usually means no poor kids.  My son is quite used to hearing no, and he's always gone to a diverse school, which is good, but his eyes were really opened up over the past couple of years by playing on a AAU basketball team with kids from much more modest circumstances.  It makes it pretty easy to point out that even having a pet is quite a luxury when your kids have some good friends who have never been inside a pet store in their entire lives.  Just an example.

Also, try to surround them every day with the idea that they have enough.  Who has got it great today?  WE DO!

+1.  Even when my kids were really little, if they wanted something I didn't feel like buying, I'd tell them we couldn't afford it even if we could.  They got used to the idea of not getting everything they wanted.

I also show them their 529 account balances, and make it clear that if I buy extremely expensive things, or they don't work hard in school, they're going to be in debt for college, or they'll have to settle for their second or third choice.  They really seem to understand.  So maybe the answer is not to say "no," it's to explain why? 

[Johnez]

I'm 28 here and have no kids, but these are some of the kind of issues I think about when considering children.  As a kid I grew up in a decent house in a good neighborhood.  My dad worked all day and my mom stayed home to keep the place running.  As a child, I did not always appreciate the lengths my parents went to in order to give us the good life, mainly because they shielded us from want, never wanting us to struggle like they did.  Both grandfathers worked on farms, one picking oranges, and another picked cotton, my dad had to quit school to take over the family business.  Our lives went to hell in a hand basket when I was about 10, homelessness and relying on kindness of others opened my eyes.  We were fortunate.  It seems every day as an adult I come across an example of how well my parents did, sometimes not appreciated then-but enormously now.  I'm an honest, hard working, and never half ass anything thanks to my parents.  I would rest assured that your efforts, even though not fully and completely appreciated now-will pay dividends as they grow up, as long as you are consistent. 

[Johnez]

And make sure your kids have friends from very diverse income levels.

Also, try to surround them every day with the idea that they have enough.  Who has got it great today?  WE DO!

This is great stuff.  I'm not sure I want to leave Southern California sometimes because of the huge diversity here.  Being "rich" is so very little about the money. 

[ShortInSeattle]

I'm not sure if it makes sense, but I'd consider doing zero presents the following year.

[Gin1984]

Just start saying "no" . . . a lot.  This works best if you are not buying a bunch of frivolous stuff for adults either.  It does take awhile to work, because your daughter is suffering from a serious case of relative deprivation (explained best by Malcolm Gladwell in his interesting book David and Goliath.)

And make sure your kids have friends from very diverse income levels. Somehow middle class society seems to frown on this, and that leads to the problem because middle class and certainly most rich people are going to buy their kids a lot of the latest trendy useless crap.  Cue a bad case of relative deprivation.  Whole exclusionary neighborhoods are founded upon the "good schools" idea, which in reality usually means no poor kids.  My son is quite used to hearing no, and he's always gone to a diverse school, which is good, but his eyes were really opened up over the past couple of years by playing on a AAU basketball team with kids from much more modest circumstances.  It makes it pretty easy to point out that even having a pet is quite a luxury when your kids have some good friends who have never been inside a pet store in their entire lives.  Just an example.

Also, try to surround them every day with the idea that they have enough.  Who has got it great today?  WE DO!

I think that is a major thing.  I think they feel poor next to their friends.  I know that growing up in private schools I felt poor, even though we were not (partly because my mom wasted money on things that were not needs like eating out).
She may be happy to get the books but unhappy to explain to her friends what she got.  They grow out of it.

[zataks]

A lot of good answers here.  And I'll echo the saying "no" and encouraging broader friend base recommendations.

And maybe I'm a bit of a hard ass (28 year old recently married man with no kids...yet; and grew up actually poor) but I also agree with no presents next year. Or maybe just one or two absolute needs, like socks that have no heels, not "but winter ball is coming up and I NEED a new dress!"   I would couple this with a doubled-down discussion and efforts on the importance of gratitude.   
Or maybe use older child's birthday to set precedent and explain that her dissatisfaction with all Christmas gifts (that were her picks!) led you to understand she did not appreciate them and gave you no cause for buying birthday gifts.  Maybe that will turn her around enough to be more appreciative for christmas?

And I don't want to get to tangential but will briefly digress.  It seems to me that most often the middle class parents are the most guilty of raising entitled children.  The wealthy often know the work required to achieve and maintain wealth and instill this in their children.  The poor struggle most or all of their lives with little to nothing and their children see this and emulate the efforts to get ahead.  And the doing-fine-but-not-wealthy middle class doesn't want things to be hard for their children and and worries how they'll deal with adversity and challenge and often shelters the children which, sadly, has the opposite of the intended effect. 

Do your children do any volunteer work?  Chores?  Do they have jobs? 

tl;dr: fewer/no gifts next gift-holiday, more 'economic diversity' in their lives, more hard work.

[mxt0133]

I can sympathize with the OP.  I would not beat myself up over it because you think you are being a bad parent.  On the contrary it's probably because you are doing your best for your children the they have a great life.  It is hard to appreciate the fact that you can wake up every morning and decide if you want to have oatmeal, fruits, eggs, yogurt, pastries or smoked salmon for breakfast if you have never been truly hungry.  My wife and know how it is to have limited food and that when it's dinner time you better eat as fast as you can because others at the table, including parents, will not hesitate to finish everything.  It irritates me that my kids will run around and get distracted or ask for something else.  I have sent my oldest to bed without eating his dinner numerous times because he refused to eat what we cooked, but he know it's an empty threat because the pantry is full.  We still try but it's hard.

We have decided to really engage in volunteer work to show him that not everyone can decide when and what to eat or be active and healthy.  I mean other than being purposely poor (I have really thought about it many times) I don't really know how else to introduce people to that world.

[SwordGuy]

Take the gifts back and give them to charity.

[marty998]

I have two tween kids

I stopped reading here. Ok I didn't but this told me everything I needed to know. Brace yourself.....

What planet do you live on? If you haven't woken up and realised that tween girls are totally obsessed with phones you're in for a shock (which I gather you've already had).

They may ask for books, but they want a new phone. You may think they want stuffed toys but they want a new phone. You may think Grandma's knitted tops are really cute, but they want a new phone.

They will always want a new phone, and you need to steel yourself for this state of mind for the next decade.

Of course the other kids got iphones - that should have been predictable. Their parents decided it's easier to give in. You've chosen to stand your ground and be mustachian which is good, but you're going to need a better strategy next time around because kids don't understand the reasons for it (hell, most adults don't understand it).

You need to lay the groundwork and manage expectations well before Christmas. Draw up war plans to fight this battle. It's not a rumble in the jungle you can just turn up to on 25/12 with a smile and a book :P

Oh and if the older one is still pouting ask her how many presents she bought for others this year.

[Megma]

I have a sister who is an adult (30+) and just as bad. Everything is the wrong color or something...I have more than once returned her gift by she was unappreciative and made me mad. Meanwhile, she complains about her gift and I don't think has ever gotten me anything.

I second the no gifts/volunteer work approach. Head it off or your will have adults as "kids" who don't appreciate you.

[homehandymum]

I guess I have a slightly different take.  Is this a common complaint from your kids?  Do they often whine about not being able to have ALL THE THINGS, and get aggro with you for not giving them whatever they want?  If so, then yes, some of the harder lifestyle changes and perspective-gathering things might work.  And I'd include them in more of the budgeting decisions, as you have started to do.  Maybe give them a "clothes and spending allowance" each month, and ALL of their clothes and personal spending needs to come out of that.  It's a more long-term goal of helping them see the value of money and the spending decisions that need to be made.

But in real life, take the gifts away or not buying them anything one year isn't actually going to make them suddenly go "gee Mum, you were right!  I am now super grateful for the gifts I got last year!"  They'll just be reinforced in their view that you are a mean and stingy woman and they NEVER get ANYTHING. 

I'd take the long view - this is children we're talking about, not adults whom we can expect to know and behave better, or keep it to themselves if they aren't happy.  Especially if they are generally reasonable and understand about money, I'd just chalk it up to actual, real disappointment and envy - not because they really genuinely expected to get everything, but because some other kids are crazy spoiled, and it's hard not to compare. 

There are many threads here and in other frugal forums filled with adults saying "but I WANT it, and I'm jealous of my sister and brother and law having it so easy!" or "Help me!  I feel really envious and I'm sick of having to slog it out on a low income.  It's not faaaaair".  These are real emotions, and they're fine.

Your emotions around this are ok, too.  YOU'RE also disappointed that you didn't get the holiday/giving experience you were hoping for.  But just like your kids are learning, sometimes the event really doesn't live up to the expectation and anticipation, and that's just part of life.

So it is fine for you to be able to say "hey, kids, I know you're disappointed that we didn't buy you everything on the whole list, and electronics as well.  In a perfect world, we'd never feel that sort of disappointment, and I'm sorry you're feeling envious of your friends.  We know you're both sensible and really do understand that the lists don't work like that, and why we didn't buy the latest gadgets etc.  Can you understand that I'm a bit disappointed that the effort I went to to get you gifts that you did want wasn't even given a thank you?  I feel hurt that, because you're focusing on all the gifts you didn't get, you've basically ignored the gifts we did give you?"

And just see what happens.  You're most likely to get eye rolls or "mumble mumble mumble" rather than gushing gratitude, but parenting is all about the long game.

Good luck.  You may not see the fruit of the long game until they're in their 20s.  One day of being a sulky kid doesn't mean they're doomed to being narcissistic ingrates for the rest of their lives :)

(P.S I cross posted with Marty998 - +1 to what he said)

[babysnowbyrd]

I guess I have a slightly different take.  Is this a common complaint from your kids?  Do they often whine about not being able to have ALL THE THINGS, and get aggro with you for not giving them whatever they want?  If so, then yes, some of the harder lifestyle changes and perspective-gathering things might work.  And I'd include them in more of the budgeting decisions, as you have started to do.  Maybe give them a "clothes and spending allowance" each month, and ALL of their clothes and personal spending needs to come out of that.  It's a more long-term goal of helping them see the value of money and the spending decisions that need to be made.

But in real life, take the gifts away or not buying them anything one year isn't actually going to make them suddenly go "gee Mum, you were right!  I am now super grateful for the gifts I got last year!"  They'll just be reinforced in their view that you are a mean and stingy woman and they NEVER get ANYTHING. 

I'd take the long view - this is children we're talking about, not adults whom we can expect to know and behave better, or keep it to themselves if they aren't happy.  Especially if they are generally reasonable and understand about money, I'd just chalk it up to actual, real disappointment and envy - not because they really genuinely expected to get everything, but because some other kids are crazy spoiled, and it's hard not to compare. 

There are many threads here and in other frugal forums filled with adults saying "but I WANT it, and I'm jealous of my sister and brother and law having it so easy!" or "Help me!  I feel really envious and I'm sick of having to slog it out on a low income.  It's not faaaaair".  These are real emotions, and they're fine.

Your emotions around this are ok, too.  YOU'RE also disappointed that you didn't get the holiday/giving experience you were hoping for.  But just like your kids are learning, sometimes the event really doesn't live up to the expectation and anticipation, and that's just part of life.

So it is fine for you to be able to say "hey, kids, I know you're disappointed that we didn't buy you everything on the whole list, and electronics as well.  In a perfect world, we'd never feel that sort of disappointment, and I'm sorry you're feeling envious of your friends.  We know you're both sensible and really do understand that the lists don't work like that, and why we didn't buy the latest gadgets etc.  Can you understand that I'm a bit disappointed that the effort I went to to get you gifts that you did want wasn't even given a thank you?  I feel hurt that, because you're focusing on all the gifts you didn't get, you've basically ignored the gifts we did give you?"

And just see what happens.  You're most likely to get eye rolls or "mumble mumble mumble" rather than gushing gratitude, but parenting is all about the long game.

Good luck.  You may not see the fruit of the long game until they're in their 20s.  One day of being a sulky kid doesn't mean they're doomed to being narcissistic ingrates for the rest of their lives :)

(P.S I cross posted with Marty998 - +1 to what he said)

This is a person who truly understands human nature. Spot on.

[TheFrugalFox]

Although we do not have kids I definitely understand where you are coming from. We have a few nieces, nephews and godkids - and these days everyday seems to be a birthday. Whenever they go to a mall with their folks they seem to come back with some sort of new toy/dvd/game. - which holds their attention for all of 10 minutes or so.

Most of the dads I know have a very weird (in my book) sense of "fatherhood" - spending all their energy in trying to satisfy their kids wants and not forgoing some of that money and actually playing with their kids.

[Cpa Cat]

A couple of suggestions that might help...

1. Limit the list. Surprises were fun when they were little and their eyes lit up at the sheer number of presents. Now it's time for them to decide what they really want. Tell them they can have five little things or one big thing - their choice. Tell relatives to give them Amazon gift cards.

2. If something inappropriate appears on the list (like an Iphone), tell them to return to the drawing board and explain why they can't have it. Explain what they would need to do to get it (see #3).

3. When they're old enough, they can buy their own stuff with the money they earn at their job. If they aren't old enough for a job, then they aren't old enough for an Iphone with a data plan. When she has a job, she can buy all the books - or go to the library and learn to budget.

4. Remind her that if she's ungrateful, then people won't want to get her anything. If she's rude to your relatives, tell your relatives not to buy her anything.

[ASquared]

Agree with the recommendations of service to others during/around the holidays. Nursing homes, food banks, disadvantaged children, etc. Find a good organization and volunteer your time together. 

Also agree with doing gifts for others, the "truly needy" with necessities and planning/shopping/delivering together with your teens.

This idea can be formatted to various age groups

[Workinghard]

I didn't get my first phone until my third year of university and I paid for it in cash for $350. It was a Nexus S.

By "in cash", I mean I bought the phone outright and didn't use one of those horrible "2 or 3 year service contracts" which are actually a form of high-interest credit although most people don't realise that that is what they are.

Haha. This reminds me of a story with our son. He was in a small group of teens and adults planning a mission trip. Cell phones came up and people started saying when they got their first phone. He chimed in that he didn't get his until he started college. Nevermind that he started taking classes at 12 and everyone there knew it.

[resy]

When our son was growing up, he would pick the name of a boy his age off an angel tree and we would get presents for that boy. He also did various things like go to nursing homes, help foster children, and go on mission trips. If there had been a soup kitchen close to us, he would have done that too. Unfortunately, American children often have a sense of entitlement unless parents make a concerted effort otherwise.

curious as to the outcome has been of these activities now if he is grown up (im assuming)? I have a 9, almost 10 yo, that I want to get involved in these types of things

[Workinghard]

There has been no negative outcome from it at all unless you consider generosity negative. I remember when he was 14 and went on a missions trip and he commented how entitled American children were. He was amazed at how thankful the other children were for the least little thing. A child crying because a book was dropped in the dirt made a huge impact on him.

Now in his early 20s, he will be getting married soon. He has a great civilian career and is also in the National Guard. He's maxing out his 401(k) and a Roth. One young couple didn't understand why he was putting so much in retirement accounts. He tried to explain to them he was use to living on ~25k and even with his contributions he still making more than he use to. He would like to be FI by his 40s, but isn't necessarily planning on quitting.

Having said that, I think he did grow up rather spoiled and that he never wanted for anything and we were able to pay his college expenses. However, he never took it for granted and was greatly appreciative. I think that's the difference. Perhaps being involved and seeing how other people lived made him more thankful and appreciative for what he had. Does he live as frugally as we do?Absolutely not. However, he's young and probably better at balancing things than I am.

[Gray Matter]

I guess I have a slightly different take.  Is this a common complaint from your kids?  Do they often whine about not being able to have ALL THE THINGS, and get aggro with you for not giving them whatever they want?  If so, then yes, some of the harder lifestyle changes and perspective-gathering things might work.  And I'd include them in more of the budgeting decisions, as you have started to do.  Maybe give them a "clothes and spending allowance" each month, and ALL of their clothes and personal spending needs to come out of that.  It's a more long-term goal of helping them see the value of money and the spending decisions that need to be made.

But in real life, take the gifts away or not buying them anything one year isn't actually going to make them suddenly go "gee Mum, you were right!  I am now super grateful for the gifts I got last year!"  They'll just be reinforced in their view that you are a mean and stingy woman and they NEVER get ANYTHING. 

I'd take the long view - this is children we're talking about, not adults whom we can expect to know and behave better, or keep it to themselves if they aren't happy.  Especially if they are generally reasonable and understand about money, I'd just chalk it up to actual, real disappointment and envy - not because they really genuinely expected to get everything, but because some other kids are crazy spoiled, and it's hard not to compare. 

There are many threads here and in other frugal forums filled with adults saying "but I WANT it, and I'm jealous of my sister and brother and law having it so easy!" or "Help me!  I feel really envious and I'm sick of having to slog it out on a low income.  It's not faaaaair".  These are real emotions, and they're fine.

Your emotions around this are ok, too.  YOU'RE also disappointed that you didn't get the holiday/giving experience you were hoping for.  But just like your kids are learning, sometimes the event really doesn't live up to the expectation and anticipation, and that's just part of life.

So it is fine for you to be able to say "hey, kids, I know you're disappointed that we didn't buy you everything on the whole list, and electronics as well.  In a perfect world, we'd never feel that sort of disappointment, and I'm sorry you're feeling envious of your friends.  We know you're both sensible and really do understand that the lists don't work like that, and why we didn't buy the latest gadgets etc.  Can you understand that I'm a bit disappointed that the effort I went to to get you gifts that you did want wasn't even given a thank you?  I feel hurt that, because you're focusing on all the gifts you didn't get, you've basically ignored the gifts we did give you?"

And just see what happens.  You're most likely to get eye rolls or "mumble mumble mumble" rather than gushing gratitude, but parenting is all about the long game.

Good luck.  You may not see the fruit of the long game until they're in their 20s.  One day of being a sulky kid doesn't mean they're doomed to being narcissistic ingrates for the rest of their lives :)

(P.S I cross posted with Marty998 - +1 to what he said)

I'm with homehandymum on this one.  I find when I'm angry at my kids, if I look behind the anger, I'm usually something else like scared or disappointed or my feelings are hurt, so why not show them that emotion instead?  And, I find offering empathy works (sometimes), too.  Their feelings are real, even if they are immature and you don't consider those feelings legit (if that makes any sense).  Dismissing their feelings as inappropriate, even if they are out of line, will probably just contribute to their sense that you don't get them or understand what it's like to be a tween/teen today.  So perhaps showing them you understand how hard it is when friends and peers have things they don't, while also trying to expand their horizons, would help.

You have my sympathy, too, because you can try to instill values into your kids, but at the ages they're at, they are heavily influenced by peers.  You can set the norms in the household, but their peers and peers' parents set the norms in society.  And some kids are just more comfortable bucking the norm than others, and they're at an age where fitting in is probably their number one goal. 

I do this activity with my kids every year around this time.  Starting in September, I start savings all the requests for money that come in the mail.  Then, one evening around the holidays, we lay them all out on the table, and we talk about each one:  what they do, why the need exists, etc.  Then each person picks two that they want to contribute to.  You learn a lot about your kids and what they care about.  But also, the sheer volume of requests is sobering, and you can't help but feel humbled in the face of so many diverse needs.  And being limited to two forces my kids to consider each one carefully and weigh them, rather than just glossing over the cause/need.  I wouldn't say these feelings always stick indefinitely, but it does do a kind of "reset."
 

[hobbes1]

I guess I have a slightly different take.  Is this a common complaint from your kids?  Do they often whine about not being able to have ALL THE THINGS, and get aggro with you for not giving them whatever they want?  If so, then yes, some of the harder lifestyle changes and perspective-gathering things might work.  And I'd include them in more of the budgeting decisions, as you have started to do.  Maybe give them a "clothes and spending allowance" each month, and ALL of their clothes and personal spending needs to come out of that.  It's a more long-term goal of helping them see the value of money and the spending decisions that need to be made.

But in real life, take the gifts away or not buying them anything one year isn't actually going to make them suddenly go "gee Mum, you were right!  I am now super grateful for the gifts I got last year!"  They'll just be reinforced in their view that you are a mean and stingy woman and they NEVER get ANYTHING. 

I'd take the long view - this is children we're talking about, not adults whom we can expect to know and behave better, or keep it to themselves if they aren't happy.  Especially if they are generally reasonable and understand about money, I'd just chalk it up to actual, real disappointment and envy - not because they really genuinely expected to get everything, but because some other kids are crazy spoiled, and it's hard not to compare. 

There are many threads here and in other frugal forums filled with adults saying "but I WANT it, and I'm jealous of my sister and brother and law having it so easy!" or "Help me!  I feel really envious and I'm sick of having to slog it out on a low income.  It's not faaaaair".  These are real emotions, and they're fine.

Your emotions around this are ok, too.  YOU'RE also disappointed that you didn't get the holiday/giving experience you were hoping for.  But just like your kids are learning, sometimes the event really doesn't live up to the expectation and anticipation, and that's just part of life.

So it is fine for you to be able to say "hey, kids, I know you're disappointed that we didn't buy you everything on the whole list, and electronics as well.  In a perfect world, we'd never feel that sort of disappointment, and I'm sorry you're feeling envious of your friends.  We know you're both sensible and really do understand that the lists don't work like that, and why we didn't buy the latest gadgets etc.  Can you understand that I'm a bit disappointed that the effort I went to to get you gifts that you did want wasn't even given a thank you?  I feel hurt that, because you're focusing on all the gifts you didn't get, you've basically ignored the gifts we did give you?"

And just see what happens.  You're most likely to get eye rolls or "mumble mumble mumble" rather than gushing gratitude, but parenting is all about the long game.

Good luck.  You may not see the fruit of the long game until they're in their 20s.  One day of being a sulky kid doesn't mean they're doomed to being narcissistic ingrates for the rest of their lives :)

(P.S I cross posted with Marty998 - +1 to what he said)

This is great adice. We try to take this view in our home and it can be tough for everyone. We as parents (speaking for my wife and I), have to remind ourselves that we are dealing with children, not little adults :)  It's hard for them to see other kids getting fancy electronics and they don't. Their friends seem to get to play video games whenever they want. We ration that experience, based on whether or not they get all the boxes checked on a chart each week (this has eliminated a lot of the fighting over who's turn it is, badgering for more time, ignoring us when we say it's time to stop, etc.).

 It can be tough to get a young kid to understand why some parents feel it's ok for their young kids to be rocking out on the latest iPod or iPhone while they are not but in the long run, we feel they will be better for it and understand later. Involving them in budget discussions is not a bad idea but for us, we might take that approach when the kids are older (eg: teenagers) and can better understand the pro's and con's of what money is spent vs. saved.

Good luck!

[Turkey Leg]

I grew up below the poverty line, but went to college and landed a lucrative IT job, as did my husband. We quickly became aware of how easy it would be to spoil our only child.

When she was about 12 or 13, we started payroll-deducting into a checking account for her that she would use to buy EVERYTHING for herself, from every pair of underwear to a Pepsi at a volleyball game. We lovingly told her we would buy her gifts at Christmas and birthdays, but to NEVER ask us to buy anything else for her ever again. If she wanted a fancy hairdo and nails for prom, it came out of this account. If she wanted to buy a gift for a friend, it came out of this account. She was required to give 10% to charity.

She also got a joint credit card with me. If she failed to balance her accounts every month, I fined her $50. If she didn't pay off the credit card, I fined her $50. (Since I was listed on both accounts, I could login and check the status, and I had access to withdraw.) Failing to feed the animals was another finable offense.

When she was in charge of every cent in her life, she made markedly different spending choices. And she came to appreciate the choices we made in spending the money we had.

There are some difficulties with this approach: Some kids may not do well with financial freedom, some purchases are hard to split out like groceries (so we paid for groceries), and it was quite difficult to figure out the magic amount of money to payroll-deduct to her checking account every month.

But we made a list of things that she now paid for (e.g., lunch during a field trip) and that we would pay for (e.g., school fees each year). I also noted this list of what we paid for vs what she paid for was not an all-inclusive list.

And it all worked out well. I have an adult child who understands how to manage money and balance accounts. She also associates having a credit card balance that isn't paid off every month with being fined (negative reinforcement :D).

[justajane]

My six year old wrote a letter to Santa asking for a laptop, and if Santa couldn't do that, he would be happy with an Xbox One or an iPhone 6. I'm so out of touch I had to look online to see if that was the most recent iteration of the iPhone. So the obsession with devices starts rather early these days.

He has been pushing for the laptop for months. It didn't make me think I was raising an entitled kid. I rather understood that he has no concept on money, and I also remembered how much I wanted things as a kid like a Nintendo or cable TV.

Did he get a laptop for Christmas? Not a new one, but his grandma ended up giving him her older one (at least 5 years old). I could have pushed back and said that this wasn't appropriate, but honestly it doesn't bother me. He's not surfing the web or anything. He plays one game (Terraria) on it. If grandma had said she wanted to buy him a new one, I would have said absolutely not. But I think he understands the difference between a used and new one and what that represents monetarily. He did actually mention its used status when he opened it. Grandma asked him, "Is that okay that it's used?" And he replied, "Yes, I love it!"

I think a tween is much more naturally intractable, so I wouldn't blame yourself for her bad attitude. I did some awfully selfish things at that age and probably often acted ungrateful. It's hard to be the kid who gets less for Christmas. I remember dreading the question at school from well meaning teachers about what I got for Christmas. I knew it was much less than my peers, and it made me embarrassed.

I also have to say that I don't recommend saying that you can't afford something when you actually can. This was terrible for me personally growing up. I thought we were really poor. When I learned as an older adult that we weren't, I resented my parents for lying about their economic state. Plus I wish I hadn't felt all the anxiety and sadness that this perception brought. If you actually can't afford something, say it, but otherwise explain to your child priorities and budgets.

[Zamboni]

macnerd13, that is a really interesting approach.  I'm going to have to think about trying that with my children soon.  It makes me a little nervous, but I do know pretty much exactly how much I spend on them thanks to my compulsive spreadsheeting, so at least the amount would be pretty easy to decide upon to start with.  I imagine it must change over time.

Oh and if the older one is still pouting ask her how many presents she bought for others this year.

Haha, I have used this one on my kids.

[Turkey Leg]

macnerd13, that is a really interesting approach.  I'm going to have to think about trying that with my children soon.  It makes me a little nervous, but I do know pretty much exactly how much I spend on them thanks to my compulsive spreadsheeting, so at least the amount would be pretty easy to decide upon to start with.  I imagine it must change over time.

Yes, Zamboni, it changed over time. We also reserved the right to alter the amount that went into her account (either up or down) for things we didn't account for. Usually, we gave her a cost-of-living bump each year, and a bump when she became driving age.

She definitely made some mistakes along the way, but that's when it was important to shut up and let her handle them.

Good luck growing your adult! :)

[Psychstache]

And make sure your kids have friends from very diverse income levels.

Also, try to surround them every day with the idea that they have enough.  Who has got it great today?  WE DO!

This is great stuff.  I'm not sure I want to leave Southern California sometimes because of the huge diversity here.  Being "rich" is so very little about the money.

Yeah, I think at least part of OP's problem stems from the fact that they live in NYC.

[GodlessCommie]

The thing here is that raising a child is a marathon, and his or her lack of gratitude is a result of her entire previous life experience, it didn't just suddenly come out of nowhere. It's what we do all year that will define how they react to presents in the holiday season. I myself took plenty of shortcuts when my two teenage boys were younger, and now struggling with how to undo the damage. They take "relative deprivation" rather easy (or don't show it), which is not an easy fit in the richest county in the US. But they have other problems that definitely come from our less than consistent parenting habits. A lot of good ideas in this thread, I'm taking notes.

[Cassie]

OP, I think you missed some of my post. Yes they made a list & put books on it but they knew they were not getting anything big so why put it on. To give you an example my boys are now ages 35-41 & by age 12 we would spend $100 on a big item they wanted & get them a few small things.  Think of the value of $ between then & now. What did they get? What they wanted so for instance maybe they wanted a hand held video game, a new bowling ball, bag, shoes because this was their sport.  If what they wanted did not add up to $100 then we got them a few bigger items. Things were not cheap in the day-their new bowling ball was $100 back then.  The books should have fell in the little gift category & augmented their one big gift. If you didn't want to do a phone because of the ongoing monthly cost tell them that but I bet there are many things that they would have liked for a big gift & been satisfied with.  My boys are not spend thrifts as adults & are actually frugal.  They also did not have the best xmas's compared with many of their peers. 

[Goldielocks]

I have two tween kids who seem to think that they are entitled to things and gifts and whatnot. 

The older one got books she asked for (she had a long list of books, we got a set of books from that list and her aunt got another set from that list) and t-shirts with her favorite bands and TV shows for Hanukkah.  Never even said thank you, but was complaining about not getting the rest of the books.  Then was lamenting that she hates Christmas because all her non-Jewish friends are getting all these extravagant gifts and all she got was books and t-shirts and few other whatnots, which included more t-shirts , poster, and pillow case, all picked out by her from her grandparents.  When she was complaining about the lack of other books, I did tell her that I would be very happy to return these books back to amazon, as she doesn't seem to be appreciative for them and couldn't even be bothered to say thank you.  That got her to stop complaining, but didn't get to be appreciative or thankful.

The younger one, who got her favorite stuffed toys, video game, and a whole bunch of science kits (which she loves) just came into my room saying that two of her best friends just informed her that they both got iPhone 6 for Christmas.  My only reaction was "So?..." She said nothing, but I could see the envy in her. 

The question is, how do I deal with this going forward?  I have no intention to be keeping up with their friends, but I also feel like I basically threw money in the garbage buying these presents for the older one. 

I'll say that we are not a mustacian household, but we do have a budget and both kids know that I stick to the budget like white on rice.

Kids do change as they get older.  I remember when my daughter's only reason to go to a museum, historical park  or zoo was the gift shop, and we rarely bought anything!  This lasted for three years, and now is of the past.

In our house, we say things like "in our family, we prefer to focus on fun presents for Christmas and leave large electronics for other times.  We like to play games together."

 Regarding phones and budgets, what finally got through to my daughter was " Yes, of course you may have a phone.  Let's figure out how you will pay for it.  If you do the research on costs, to figure out what your options are, I can help you plan how to make it happen".  After repeating this a few times, we first had her delay any research on costs for a few months, then dad helped her buy an unlocked phone with birthday card money (not iPhone!), and a pay as you go.  She did get an iPad mini (used, i think) from grandparents on WiFi, so she is very happy with this combo.

[Goldielocks]

And make sure your kids have friends from very diverse income levels.

It makes it pretty easy to point out that even having a pet is quite a luxury when your kids have some good friends who have never been inside a pet store in their entire lives.  Just an example.

Wow, this is spectacularly great advice.  It makes a huge difference and has our kids thinking about their various friends situations.

 It helps a bit that we live in a older and smaller house than we could afford, so our spend level is within reach of the neighbors. A wide range attend the local school from foster kids through spendy dual incomes whose parents buy guilt presents for working so much.

The concept of buy nothing next year is not an option.  Why punish yourself at Christmas to try to teach your kids a lesson that they won't get?  Do something fun, that is free or for charity, together , makes more sense.

My son wanted a computer this year, and as he is 12 and uses one now, it is reasonable that he gets one to use through high school.  But.. He wanted a fast version... And was happy to pay for half, with money he earned at the paper route he hated.  6 months of paper route, and he has something he really wants. And I hope, an appreciation of what it takes. 

[pbkmaine]

Here's how we dealt with it with my 3 stepdaughters, all of whom are now responsible adults with families of their own. We provided basic computers and basic phones. If they wanted the fancy stuff, we would pay the basic equivalent and they would pay the rest. Schoolbooks we paid for, but if I had it to do all over again, I would have given them cash for new and then they could decide on new or used and keep the change. Pleasure reading came from the library. What clothes they needed came out of $100 we came them in an envelope each semester. Anything extra they paid for. For birthdays and Christmas we told them what our budget was. They could give us a wish list, understanding that we would stick within the budget, or we would give them a gift card for the budget amount.  The same was true of college. We told them we would pay for 4 years only of a state school or the equivalent anywhere.  They rarely complained, because they saw we lived our own lives consistent with these values. The few times they played the "All my friends have X" card, we told them it was fine to tell their friends we were cheap.

[Lynski]

I agree with what was posted earlier, about having kids buy gifts for others. As the oldest of four kids growing up, my mom started out by taking us to the dollar store, and letting my siblings and I each pick out gifts for the others. As we got older, we were expected to pay for the gifts out of our own allowance.

Another thing that helped reinforce the "it is better to give than to receive" philosophy growing up was my dad's refusing to provide a wish list, or look at our wish lists, saying that a gift should be a surprise, rather than checking an item off a list. It's not quite as convenient as "knowing" what to get somebody, but receiving something that I knew somebody had spent time to figure out and came from the heart was it's own reward. 

[GizmoTX]

Gratitude is something that has to be taught year round. A wish list is not an order form. I grew up lower middle class with 4 sibs, & we were all expected to come up with modest Christmas & birthday presents for each other with our own money. We didn't have an allowance so we earned money all year long to be able to do this.

We have never told DS that we can't afford anything, because it's obvious to him that we can. But we actively fear affluenza & have always told him that we choose carefully how we spend our money & not to expect what other kids may get.

Macnerd13 is spot on -- kids usually make completely different spending decisions when it's their own money. I was appalled at all the money DS' friends' parents would fork over on demand at outings. DS knew he had to decide to bring & spend his own money. We also opened & funded a checking account with him when he became a teen. We paid for school tuition, books, uniforms, & food -- he paid for gifts, outings, & anything else he wanted. Later on we added a credit card that he is responsible for paying in full on time.

Parental expectations matter. We traveled to another state for our annual holiday visit with 5 families that now have teens to young adults. One family's children could not resist pulling out their smartphones to entertain themselves during the visit, although they would respond to direct conversation. Another family's children did not hide that they did not want to be there, complete with eye rolls, but when we commented favorably about the absence of phones, their parents told us that was strictly forbidden. The remaining families' children were actively engaged with us & none pulled out a phone.

I believe that children are acquiring electronic devices, especially smartphones, at a far too young age, not to mention the expense. The function should be matched to the age that can appreciate & use it as a tool, not just a diversion. This means a music device for responsible tweens, a simple phone for emergency contact with teens who are traveling to activities outside the home, & maybe a smartphone at an age when the child has proved s/he can take care of such possessions & is old enough to handle an unfiltered internet, i.e. 16 minimum. We also monitored & filtered computer usage until 16.

[Workinghard]

We did the checking acct and credit card thing too. Like others said it makes a big difference spending their money vs. their parent's money. When our kid needed money for an outing, we would also let him keep what he didn't spend. That made a huge difference and motivated him not to waste the money on snacks or junk. And we're still doing that. Gave him 5k for his wedding. The wedding expenses are around $1500 (small venue) and they have the rest for whatever.

[FiguringItOut]

This is OP.  I want to thank everyone for your responses.  I quickly read them on my phone, but when I have time, I want to reread them carefully and consider them as I feel a lot of good points were brought up; some that I knew but didn't give too much thought to, and some that I didn't think before.  I'll be back a bit later after I have time to read and ponder.
Thank you again everybody.

[Cottonswab]

IMO, once your kids understand how currency works, providing an allowance and having your children manage the money is the best way to avoid these issues and teach them valuable skills.  I would then cut back on gift giving and only provide additional resources, when a good "business case" is presented.

Your budgets, which they have no input into, will always seem arbitrary and inconsiderate of their needs...

[surfhb]

What?!    Teenage girls who think they know everything, bow to peer pressure and have a sense of entitlement?   I don't believe it!  :)

[netskyblue]

I do NOT understand today's kids' obsession with smartphones.  I mean, sure, growing up, I wanted to talk to my friends same as anybody.  I was allowed to use THE phone to make phone calls.  I had a time limit, and I wasn't allowed to call long distance, which unfortunately was about half my school friends.  With cell phones these days, long distance isn't even a thing.  Why then, can't they use one parent's phone to call their friends, with a 1 hour or so time limit?

And the internet?  Almost every house has a computer, surely they can use that.  Heck, almost nobody has dial-up these days, so they can talk on the phone AND use the internet AT THE SAME TIME!

[rocketpj]

I do NOT understand today's kids' obsession with smartphones.  I mean, sure, growing up, I wanted to talk to my friends same as anybody.  I was allowed to use THE phone to make phone calls.  I had a time limit, and I wasn't allowed to call long distance, which unfortunately was about half my school friends.  With cell phones these days, long distance isn't even a thing.  Why then, can't they use one parent's phone to call their friends, with a 1 hour or so time limit?

And the internet?  Almost every house has a computer, surely they can use that.  Heck, almost nobody has dial-up these days, so they can talk on the phone AND use the internet AT THE SAME TIME!

Don't have to understand it, just have to work with it.  Generations change, but the constant is that the older generation is exasperated with the younger one for not getting that which the elders did not get at their age.

For me it was an Atari and Lego.  I wanted them, never ever got one.  (It seemed like) all the other kids got them, and I didn't not because my parents couldn't, but because they wouldn't (or so I thought).  And I have no doubt that their generation did 'NOT UNDERSTAND' why the kids want those things.

They want them because they are genetically and socially compelled to fit in or die, and being on the outside of the social world is a fate worse than death for a teen.  We are making frugal choices for them, but also 'to them'.  WE make the choices, but WE also must accept responsibility for the impact those choices will have on our kids outside the home.

[scottish]

My kids have always had a small allowance ($5/week) that they could use to save up and buy things.     When they wanted an iPod, they could save up for it.    If they asked me for something, I would ask them how they were going to pay for it.    I think that worked out ok.   It encouraged them to find ways to earn money if they needed more than the five dollars.   I remember my coworkers berating me for giving them such a small allowance!    Apparently they thought $20/week was appropriate for pre-teens and $50/week for teenagers.

Then when they were tweens, Steve Martin came out with this amusing video on spending.   The kids were learning to apply math, so they thought it was a great video.   Here it is:
https://screen.yahoo.com/dont-buy-stuff-000000884.html

I'm currently showing them how extra money isn't for buying stuff, it's for investing so you can use it as wealth.   My 15 year old son suggested last week that we get him a brokerage account so he could buy shares with his savings - haven't figured out how to handle that one yet.     

I'm also trying to explain to them how financial services people are *not* your friends - they are there for their cut of the action and should be avoided as much as possible.   This one is harder.

[NinetyFour]

That video is great!

[OutBy40]

First, whomever is getting their freaking kids brand new iPhone 6's have got to be completely out of their minds.  They are setting their poor kids up to be typical mindless consumers of needless crap, expecting the next best thing year after year.  How ridiculous.  When I was younger my parents were fairly well off, but even I didn't get expensive electronics like that.  My parents set a budget and I had to stick with it.  Period.

You could try doing the budget thing.  Tell each kid that you have $200 to spend (ask for).  That's it.  Whether it's 10 books or a single piece of electrical crap, make that $200 last. 

[FiguringItOut]

OK, everybody.  Thank you all for your thoughtful comments. I've been thinking about it and I see two things where I could've done better. 

1. I set the holidays gift budget too low.
2. I didn't manage their expectations well.

Now to elaborate:

1.  Low gift budget: it was set originally at $60 each, but then ended up being around $120 each. This increase happened because my husband went and spent about $30 of gifts for each of them from each other.  This is a whole different story that I don't want to get into right now.  Plus I got them few small stocking stuffers type things as well. The reason the budget was this low is because we went completely overboard on their birthdays (they both have summer birthdays) spending about $900 total between both of them (this included Broadway show, tickets to two concerts, a party for the younger one, and a ton of smaller things.  Anyhow, I now realized that I need to be more realistic with the gift budget, for both holidays and birthdays and keep more in proportion to each other. 

2. Managing their expectations: I am still thinking about this.  Electronics and gadgets are very hard for me to wrap my head around.  I have my laptop, kindle and my smart phone (Galaxy s3 mini unlocked which I bought for around $350 back in the summer).  These are all the gadget I need and want.  Left to their own devices, both kids and husband would have a very well stocked Apple store in our house, plus all the game systems that ever existed on the market.  Also, I am not an Apple person, and strongly prefer Android.  So I am having really hard time stepping into their shoes, but at the same time, I am the only one in the house who is managing the budget and trying to keep it under control.  My husband has no problems living in credit card heaven (ones again, this is a whole other discussion for another time).  Plus of course my kids expectations, as measured against their friends' gifts.

All of you have given me a huge amount of things to consider and think about. 

Also, I really like that suggestion that some of you gave about giving kids a large monthly allowance, but having them being responsible for all of their expenses.  I will need to give this a lot of thought on how and when to best implement this, but I do like it. 

[GizmoTX]

I really like that suggestion that some of you gave about giving kids a large monthly allowance, but having them being responsible for all of their expenses.  I will need to give this a lot of thought on how and when to best implement this, but I do like it.

I suggest that you do this in age appropriate steps. Any monthly amount is going to look huge at first; you are trying to teach budgeting, delayed gratification, & wise choices, plus avoid arguments or solicitations. We started with an amount for spending money & a limited number of regular activities such as movies & presents for friends' birthday parties; we continued to purchase clothing & agreed upon sports, music lessons, or other similar activities. It's important that you spell out up front what you will pay for & don't supplement the allowance if/when it runs out, so initially don't expect your child to pay for anything you consider to be essential, such as school expenses. I set up a bank auto transfer from our family checking account to DS' account when we opened it, so it was much easier to pay & to never have to come up with cash. DS loved getting his own account with debit card & checks, & I showed him how to reconcile it & run a spreadsheet to track it. You can increase the amount as your child gets older & demonstrates capability to handle more decisions. In preparation for college away from home, we added a credit card & more expenses to pay when DS was a HS senior. At college, his monthly allowance is expected to cover his normal budgeted expenses except for tuition -- we don't send any extra money & he must pay his CC in full. He discovered Mint on his own & uses the Splitwise app to track roommate transactions. I can still monitor his accounts online & occasionally do so -- this will end when he graduates & we're no longer legally responsible. DS has had a summer job since he was a HS junior & is now expected to fully fund his Roth IRA.

[Sofa King]

Reminded me of this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLdBrx-ijwQ