Author Topic: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!  (Read 61487 times)

hedgefund10

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2016, 12:47:21 PM »
The millenial generation has been forced into the situation of job hopping and their working habits.  Why do I say that?

Simple:

-Average raises are very low at companies (less than 3% annually).  Companies continually ask their employees to do more, but refuse to reward for it.
-Most management positions are filled by outside hires, the days of being rewarded promotions internally have left.

So, the younger gens have to bounce around to move up both in position and pay.

3%, that is 3x the inflation rate.  Would you rather have a 3% inflation rate and 9% raise? The increase in purchasing power is the same.

tipster350

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2016, 12:52:36 PM »

Considering the fact that 60k-70k for an individual is already a ridiculously large amount of money (it's more than 1 out of every 2 families are making in household income) in the US, I'm not surprised that you've got employees leaving for such jobs, especially if they come with better work-life balances. If you think that amount of money is chump change, it shows how out of touch your business model is relative to the country it exists in, never mind to millenials. Most people in the US aren't earning that much no matter how many hours they put in; most families aren't earning that much no matter how many members are working.


That's not really true.  The issue is if you are highly educated and working in a high paying industry (say, tech), then $60-$70k is really an entry level salary.  Usually your decent people are making $80k, and your good people are at $90 or slightly more.  And trust me a 5-7% raise per year is given out to maybe one person, every leap year, when there's both a solar and a lunar eclipse happening. 

My favorite experience so far has been when I absolutely crushed it for 3 years in a row, got top performance reviews, 2% raises, and then got promoted to manager.  Guess how much a raise that got me?  Zero.  Yep, here's the responsibility of 15 more people and you get nothing. 

Oh, just to give some more context, the companies I have worked for are Century Link, Hewlett Packard, Oracle, and Convergys.  It's been exactly the same at every one of them.

Yes, that is reality. There is very little reason to give away your life to long hours and extreme effort, when as soon as the wind blows in a different direction, you're history. Or if you're "lucky" get a 2% raise and a certificate for exemplary performance in most industries. Any other outcomes are nice outlying events over the course of a long career that happen every now and then when the conditions line up. Mr. Hedgefund is quite young, think he knows it all and will never be the cog in the wheel that gets used up, taken advantage of, and occasionally thrown away.

I can't blame the millenials who observe reality and acting accordingly.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2016, 12:54:22 PM by tipster350 »

tobitonic

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2016, 12:53:08 PM »

Considering the fact that 60k-70k for an individual is already a ridiculously large amount of money (it's more than 1 out of every 2 families are making in household income) in the US, I'm not surprised that you've got employees leaving for such jobs, especially if they come with better work-life balances. If you think that amount of money is chump change, it shows how out of touch your business model is relative to the country it exists in, never mind to millenials. Most people in the US aren't earning that much no matter how many hours they put in; most families aren't earning that much no matter how many members are working.


That's not really true. 

The median individual wage in 2014 was 28.8k.

The median household income in 2013 was 51.9k.

Ok, so that median wage for individuals includes the high school graduates working at McDonald's. Why would I compare bachelor's and masters students to them? The answer you wouldn't.

You compare them because not everyone with a college education is a.) employed in a position requiring their particular degree, b.) employed in a position requiring any college education, c.) employed full time, or d.) employed. The facts are that most people out there (and certainly most millenials) aren't raking in 60-70k a year. If you don't get why folks would leave your firm and consider working for it, you don't get how little money most people are actually making.

tobitonic

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #53 on: March 20, 2016, 12:58:05 PM »
Oh, and here's a lovely calculator that I came across some months ago. It lets you plug in wages to figure out what income percentile you'd land in as an 18-34 year old:

http://fusion.net/story/41833/wealth-gap-calculator-are-you-in-the-millennial-one-percent/

From trial and error, I found that the 50th percentile for Gen Y is ~27.5k. The 90th percentile begins around 59k, and the 99th percentile begins at around 106.5k.

Yaeger

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #54 on: March 20, 2016, 01:07:42 PM »
I think it's important to put performance incentives into perspective. "Workers who received the highest performance ratings were granted an average salary increase of 4.6 percent in 2013, more than 75 percent above the 2.6 percent pay bump given to those who received an average rating"

https://www.shrm.org/hrdisciplines/compensation/articles/pages/big-raises-for-star-performers.aspx

If you're a high performer over time, that increase in wages over time at 4.6 percent vs. 2.6 percent leads to a substantial long-term wage difference. However, if you're a generation like Millennials (my generation) who are characteristically moving jobs every couple of years, those persons won't be able to capitalize on that wage growth and it'll seem like they're not advancing in comparison to the average workers. That's not true for everyone, but I think it accurately represents the majority.

ender

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #55 on: March 20, 2016, 01:39:13 PM »
If you're a high performer over time, that increase in wages over time at 4.6 percent vs. 2.6 percent leads to a substantial long-term wage difference. However, if you're a generation like Millennials (my generation) who are characteristically moving jobs every couple of years, those persons won't be able to capitalize on that wage growth and it'll seem like they're not advancing in comparison to the average workers. That's not true for everyone, but I think it accurately represents the majority.

For what it's worth, this applies to high performers who leave their company even more strongly than those who stick around. High performers have a lot of options. Companies, especially in tech, have a hard enough time finding good people. Companies are out there willing to pay for good talent and if you are in that position, you can do far better than 4.6% average raises (especially when compared to 2.6% raises).

As an example, my salary has gone up by about 35% since I started working full-time about 3 years ago. I recently changed jobs (~2 months ago) and I was at my first employer for about 3 years fulltime, plus a handful of internships and working part-time.

Of that 35% increase, a total of 18% was at my first company. This includes a promotion and consistent "exceeds expectations" performance reviews over the course of those years.

Changing to a new company? A 15% raise with respect to my final salary there salary. In absolute terms, the total raises from a promotion and multiple great performance evaluations over the course of three years still only totaled what I got in one moment when changing companies.








hedgefund10

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #56 on: March 20, 2016, 01:40:40 PM »

Considering the fact that 60k-70k for an individual is already a ridiculously large amount of money (it's more than 1 out of every 2 families are making in household income) in the US, I'm not surprised that you've got employees leaving for such jobs, especially if they come with better work-life balances. If you think that amount of money is chump change, it shows how out of touch your business model is relative to the country it exists in, never mind to millenials. Most people in the US aren't earning that much no matter how many hours they put in; most families aren't earning that much no matter how many members are working.


That's not really true. 

The median individual wage in 2014 was 28.8k.

The median household income in 2013 was 51.9k.

Ok, so that median wage for individuals includes the high school graduates working at McDonald's. Why would I compare bachelor's and masters students to them? The answer you wouldn't.

You compare them because not everyone with a college education is a.) employed in a position requiring their particular degree, b.) employed in a position requiring any college education, c.) employed full time, or d.) employed. The facts are that most people out there (and certainly most millenials) aren't raking in 60-70k a year. If you don't get why folks would leave your firm and consider working for it, you don't get how little money most people are actually making.

In your response you say college graduates. I said HIGH SCHOOL graduates in my first response. I agree in including people that graduate college. However, you stats uses high school graduates working at McDonalds and similar low paying jobs. So I ask again why would I compare myself to those that didn't want to go to college? Again I wouldn't. Don't blame me for others not taking high school and their future seriously.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #57 on: March 20, 2016, 01:56:42 PM »
So, the younger gens have to bounce around to move up both in position and pay.
Those damn intelligent, skilled, flexible, in-demand kids.
Didn't anyone teach them that you stay at MegaCorp for 40years and hope you don't get downsized before they steal your pension ?

 

stlbrah

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #58 on: March 20, 2016, 01:56:57 PM »
The only problem I see with millennials is that they job hop constantly.

That may be a problem for you, but its a necessary evil for millennials.
Gone are the days of company loyalty to their employees. Gone (largely) are the days of climbing the company ladder by dedicating your career to the same company, and being rewarded for that effort and dedication. Many companies are more apt to hire from outside the organization for management/supervisory positions than to hire from within. Many companies have no problem cutting 10% of their workforce after a few bad quarters if it means slightly improving the bottom line.

Millennials just happen to have enough awareness to recognize that if a company has no loyalty to you, why should you have any loyalty to it? We're aware enough to recognize that the best way to climb the ladder, and to drastically increase our earning power, is by hopping to companies willing to pay that premium for the contribution we're able to make after a few years in a given position. Don't get me wrong, if effort and performance are properly rewarded, naturally you'll see less turnover, and that's true across all generations. If it isn't, then that high turnover, or "job-hopping", will be the reality you're forced to deal with.

Like it or not, that is the new reality, not brought upon by millennials, but by the business environment we've been forced to adapt to.

I am 28, and see your point. It doesn't seem worth it to me to  lose 10% of your 401k account just to job hop if you have been there a few years. It would have to be a good pay increase or have to be for some form of enjoyment
« Last Edit: March 20, 2016, 01:59:11 PM by stlbrah »

EverCurious

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #59 on: March 20, 2016, 03:29:40 PM »
I know this won't apply to all of us snake people, but the ones I used to hang with pretty much had the mentality that tipster350 mentioned. It does not make sense to " slave away" (their words not mine) working to death for maybe a chance at a raise or a good career, especially since companies don't give a rat's behind about throwing you aside at the drop of a hat like you were used toilet paper. Furthermore, most of my friends don't even consider retirement because they feel that because they need to job hop, they can't save up their 401k and just get too depressed thinking of the future ahead.

Not saying all us snake people are like this, just most of the ones I know.

FIRE_Buckeye

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #60 on: March 20, 2016, 07:41:29 PM »
The only problem I see with millennials is that they job hop constantly.

That may be a problem for you, but its a necessary evil for millennials.
Gone are the days of company loyalty to their employees. Gone (largely) are the days of climbing the company ladder by dedicating your career to the same company, and being rewarded for that effort and dedication. Many companies are more apt to hire from outside the organization for management/supervisory positions than to hire from within. Many companies have no problem cutting 10% of their workforce after a few bad quarters if it means slightly improving the bottom line.

Millennials just happen to have enough awareness to recognize that if a company has no loyalty to you, why should you have any loyalty to it? We're aware enough to recognize that the best way to climb the ladder, and to drastically increase our earning power, is by hopping to companies willing to pay that premium for the contribution we're able to make after a few years in a given position. Don't get me wrong, if effort and performance are properly rewarded, naturally you'll see less turnover, and that's true across all generations. If it isn't, then that high turnover, or "job-hopping", will be the reality you're forced to deal with.

Like it or not, that is the new reality, not brought upon by millennials, but by the business environment we've been forced to adapt to.

I am 28, and see your point. It doesn't seem worth it to me to  lose 10% of your 401k account just to job hop if you have been there a few years. It would have to be a good pay increase or have to be for some form of enjoyment
Lose 10%? Huh?
There is no early withdrawal penalty on rollovers from one retirement account to another, and if you are referring to matching, most companies vest employees at 50% after 1-2 years and 100% after 3.

beltim

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #61 on: March 20, 2016, 08:22:01 PM »
The millenial generation has been forced into the situation of job hopping and their working habits.  Why do I say that?

Simple:

-Average raises are very low at companies (less than 3% annually).  Companies continually ask their employees to do more, but refuse to reward for it.
-Most management positions are filled by outside hires, the days of being rewarded promotions internally have left.

So, the younger gens have to bounce around to move up both in position and pay.

3%, that is 3x the inflation rate.  Would you rather have a 3% inflation rate and 9% raise? The increase in purchasing power is the same.

You might want to re-check your math there.  Someone who gets a 3% raise with a 1% inflation has 1.03/1.01 = 1.98% increase in purchasing power.  In contrast, someone who gets a 9% raise with 3% inflation has a 1.09/1.03 = 5.8% increase in purchasing power.

5.8% is more than 1.98%.

hedgefund10

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #62 on: March 20, 2016, 08:27:23 PM »
The millenial generation has been forced into the situation of job hopping and their working habits.  Why do I say that?

Simple:

-Average raises are very low at companies (less than 3% annually).  Companies continually ask their employees to do more, but refuse to reward for it.
-Most management positions are filled by outside hires, the days of being rewarded promotions internally have left.

So, the younger gens have to bounce around to move up both in position and pay.

3%, that is 3x the inflation rate.  Would you rather have a 3% inflation rate and 9% raise? The increase in purchasing power is the same.

You might want to re-check your math there.  Someone who gets a 3% raise with a 1% inflation has 1.03/1.01 = 1.98% increase in purchasing power.  In contrast, someone who gets a 9% raise with 3% inflation has a 1.09/1.03 = 5.8% increase in purchasing power.

5.8% is more than 1.98%.

My B. Should be that each raise is 3x the rate of inflation. Good catch.

JLee

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #63 on: March 20, 2016, 10:16:39 PM »
The millennials represent a sea change, politically, for this country.  And they have much different core values than the Boomers, in particular.  These 2 facts make a lot of (conservative) people very, very uncomfortable.  So they make fun of the millennials at every opportunity, because they fear the inevitable change they represent. 

For myself (a Gen-X'er), with regard to the changes you are bringing - I say "Thank You!" and "It's about d@mn time".

The younger millenials that I have supervised, want to do the minimum amount of work to get maximum benefit.  The older people I have supervised don't seem to have this mentality.

Hmm. Not a millenial, but minimum work for maximum benefit sounds pretty good.  This whole maximum work for crappy wages really isn't making me happy, I'm willing to try something else.

Don't get mad when I pick the other person putting in more work for a bigger raise.
Except it doesn't work that way. Typically, a new person getting hired in from outside comes in at a higher rate than the people who remain.

Oh, and here's a lovely calculator that I came across some months ago. It lets you plug in wages to figure out what income percentile you'd land in as an 18-34 year old:

http://fusion.net/story/41833/wealth-gap-calculator-are-you-in-the-millennial-one-percent/

From trial and error, I found that the 50th percentile for Gen Y is ~27.5k. The 90th percentile begins around 59k, and the 99th percentile begins at around 106.5k.

Hah, I might be part of the 1%, albeit only in my age group so it doesn't really count... I never expected that to happen. :P
« Last Edit: March 20, 2016, 10:20:01 PM by JLee »

shelivesthedream

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #64 on: March 21, 2016, 02:30:41 AM »
I'm a snake person and I absolutely agree that we want to do minimum work for maximum reward. However, this does not mean the minimum available work and still get the maximum available reward. Rather, that we want to maximise the ROI of our work and there comes a pointed diminishing returns where working harder does not net us commensurately more reward. I would not argue that snake people are not materialistic at all, but I would argue that we do not have the material ambitions that our parents had. We have quality of life ambitions which are more important. We don't want to, to paraphrase someone else in this thread, work 60 hours a week for 40 years for Company X to get laid off with no pension. So yes, we do not work as hard as we "could do", but it's not laziness - it's a trade off and we know what we are doing. (Possibly because we saw our parents do the former and realised they got shafted and were never around for us because they were always working.) Ask any snake person whether they would prefer more money or more [free time, flexibility, work from home, etc] and most would pick the quality of life option. We've just realised it before getting locked in to corporate world and starting a family and realising we have no time for them.

Yaeger

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #65 on: March 21, 2016, 02:38:56 AM »
I'm a snake person and I absolutely agree that we want to do minimum work for maximum reward. However, this does not mean the minimum available work and still get the maximum available reward. Rather, that we want to maximise the ROI of our work and there comes a pointed diminishing returns where working harder does not net us commensurately more reward. I would not argue that snake people are not materialistic at all, but I would argue that we do not have the material ambitions that our parents had. We have quality of life ambitions which are more important. We don't want to, to paraphrase someone else in this thread, work 60 hours a week for 40 years for Company X to get laid off with no pension. So yes, we do not work as hard as we "could do", but it's not laziness - it's a trade off and we know what we are doing. (Possibly because we saw our parents do the former and realised they got shafted and were never around for us because they were always working.) Ask any snake person whether they would prefer more money or more [free time, flexibility, work from home, etc] and most would pick the quality of life option. We've just realised it before getting locked in to corporate world and starting a family and realising we have no time for them.

I think it's, in part, what's driving the wealth divide here in the US. Our workers are making quality of life trade-offs more often than our parents did which is resulting in a shift away from wage-based compensation to more non-wage based compensation (free time, flexibility, work from home, family leave, etc). Since individual wealth is generated from savings, and workers are volunteering for less take-home pay, young workers are sacrificing growth of future wealth for current quality of life.

Elliot

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #66 on: March 21, 2016, 05:10:11 AM »
I think that's true for some, but I also think there's still a real problem with wages for some workers.

Rufus.T.Firefly

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #67 on: March 21, 2016, 05:41:14 AM »
Employees who stay in their company for more than 2 years make 50% less in their lifetime.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/cameronkeng/2014/06/22/employees-that-stay-in-companies-longer-than-2-years-get-paid-50-less/#7ac89995210e


ender

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #68 on: March 21, 2016, 06:11:46 AM »
I'm a snake person and I absolutely agree that we want to do minimum work for maximum reward. However, this does not mean the minimum available work and still get the maximum available reward. Rather, that we want to maximise the ROI of our work and there comes a pointed diminishing returns where working harder does not net us commensurately more reward. I would not argue that snake people are not materialistic at all, but I would argue that we do not have the material ambitions that our parents had. We have quality of life ambitions which are more important. We don't want to, to paraphrase someone else in this thread, work 60 hours a week for 40 years for Company X to get laid off with no pension. So yes, we do not work as hard as we "could do", but it's not laziness - it's a trade off and we know what we are doing. (Possibly because we saw our parents do the former and realised they got shafted and were never around for us because they were always working.) Ask any snake person whether they would prefer more money or more [free time, flexibility, work from home, etc] and most would pick the quality of life option. We've just realised it before getting locked in to corporate world and starting a family and realising we have no time for them.

I think another attitude difference is that I don't see my job as much more than a mutually agreeable arrangement. My company pays me to provide a service. I accept that agreement while it is still the most beneficial arrangement to me, just as they do. If it's not anymore or there are other, better agreements? Of course I am going to leave.

My previous job I struggled some when I wanted to leave as I was there for over 5 years in total. The feeling bad problem. But you know what? That piece of paper I signed for the "contract" on my last position clearly stated that the agreement was at-will. Employee and employer could cancel it at either time. Who benefits most from this? It is most assuredly not me, even though I suspect that job was a fairly stable job.

As it stands, companies in at-will states can pretty much screw their employees over whenever. It is a considerably greater impact on my life to lose my job randomly than it is to the employer for me to randomly quit. The employer has nearly all the power in that relationship, as the employee holds nearly all the risk.

If companies want to win loyalty from their employees there are ways to do so. If a company offered a contractual 3-month notice period for them laying me off/firing me, that would make me considerably more loyal than the normal... 3 second notice period. Or have senior management not receive multi-million dollar bonuses while laying people off to reduce costs. You want to win millennials over? Have it built into your company laws and regulations that the CEO total compensation is capped if the company lays people off for financial reasons.

Companies overwhelmingly treat people like cogs and interchangeable, disposable pieces. People seem to want to blame millennials for figuring this all out and acting accordingly.

shelivesthedream

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #69 on: March 21, 2016, 06:48:46 AM »
+1 that I am as loyal to my employers as they are to me. I am freelance and there is a lot of good will work in my industry, but if it's someone I trust and respect who has stood by me in the past, I will certainly go above and beyond. If it's someone who does not appear to respect my time or opinions, I will only do the minimum of what I have been contracted to do.

Personally, I am very bad at negotiating for more money on a job but very good at negotiating for less time/more benefits. Employers usually don't have much more money than they initially offer me but there is no reason that I can't have a certain day off or the use of certain facilities. This is why I like being paid for projects rather than hourly - as long as I deliver no one cares how or when I work. If they only have budget for three weeks worth of work, I may not be able to question the £ amount but I can inform them that they will get whatever I can do in three weeks.

canonian

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #70 on: March 21, 2016, 07:26:40 AM »
(Possibly because we saw our parents do the former and realised they got shafted and were never around for us because they were always working.) Ask any snake person whether they would prefer more money or more [free time, flexibility, work from home, etc] and most would pick the quality of life option. We've just realised it before getting locked in to corporate world and starting a family and realising we have no time for them.

I agree completely.
I'm pretty sure Gen Xers were the first generation written about in the media who took this mentality.  I know I did however I'm not putting a generation into a one size fits all box because of what the media wrote.  Over the years I've done my very best to minimize work related activity interfering with family continually.  That does not mean it never does, and vice versa.  The bond between employee and employer has been shattered long ago and is the real issue.  I long for the days when you could not be bothered once you left work.

I've had one Gen Y hired that completely fit the media driven stereo typical attitude and have another right now that is not even close to what they portray.

Time is our most precious asset, use it wisely.

MandalayVA

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #71 on: March 21, 2016, 07:48:52 AM »

I'm pretty sure Gen Xers were the first generation written about in the media who took this mentality.  I know I did however I'm not putting a generation into a one size fits all box because of what the media wrote.  Over the years I've done my very best to minimize work related activity interfering with family continually.  That does not mean it never does, and vice versa.  The bond between employee and employer has been shattered long ago and is the real issue.  I long for the days when you could not be bothered once you left work.

As a Gen X, this.  One of the perks of being an hourly employee is getting overtime pay.  You want me to come in early or stay late or sacrifice my Saturday morning?  That's gonna cost you big time.  Last week I took some time off to visit family in Florida, and when I came back overtime was in place because we were behind.  Since overtime isn't paid if vacation or discretionary time is used, guess who wasn't altering their schedule? 

JLee

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #72 on: March 21, 2016, 07:56:30 AM »

I'm pretty sure Gen Xers were the first generation written about in the media who took this mentality.  I know I did however I'm not putting a generation into a one size fits all box because of what the media wrote.  Over the years I've done my very best to minimize work related activity interfering with family continually.  That does not mean it never does, and vice versa.  The bond between employee and employer has been shattered long ago and is the real issue.  I long for the days when you could not be bothered once you left work.

As a Gen X, this.  One of the perks of being an hourly employee is getting overtime pay.  You want me to come in early or stay late or sacrifice my Saturday morning?  That's gonna cost you big time.  Last week I took some time off to visit family in Florida, and when I came back overtime was in place because we were behind.  Since overtime isn't paid if vacation or discretionary time is used, guess who wasn't altering their schedule?

I ran the "if I were hourly" numbers the last time something blew up at work. Sometimes it's a bit depressing to be salaried, lol.

Rufus.T.Firefly

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #73 on: March 21, 2016, 09:18:37 AM »
The real reason you hear about this narrative of millennials is that it's click-bait. It's easy frame for an article, news piece, or analysis. It's just a lazy journalism.

The older generation has always worried about the younger generation, and this will never change.

I bet the parents & grandparents of the "greatest generation" thought those kids were taking the country down the toilet too...


stlbrah

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #74 on: March 21, 2016, 09:24:41 AM »
The only problem I see with millennials is that they job hop constantly.

That may be a problem for you, but its a necessary evil for millennials.
Gone are the days of company loyalty to their employees. Gone (largely) are the days of climbing the company ladder by dedicating your career to the same company, and being rewarded for that effort and dedication. Many companies are more apt to hire from outside the organization for management/supervisory positions than to hire from within. Many companies have no problem cutting 10% of their workforce after a few bad quarters if it means slightly improving the bottom line.

Millennials just happen to have enough awareness to recognize that if a company has no loyalty to you, why should you have any loyalty to it? We're aware enough to recognize that the best way to climb the ladder, and to drastically increase our earning power, is by hopping to companies willing to pay that premium for the contribution we're able to make after a few years in a given position. Don't get me wrong, if effort and performance are properly rewarded, naturally you'll see less turnover, and that's true across all generations. If it isn't, then that high turnover, or "job-hopping", will be the reality you're forced to deal with.

Like it or not, that is the new reality, not brought upon by millennials, but by the business environment we've been forced to adapt to.

I am 28, and see your point. It doesn't seem worth it to me to  lose 10% of your 401k account just to job hop if you have been there a few years. It would have to be a good pay increase or have to be for some form of enjoyment
Lose 10%? Huh?
There is no early withdrawal penalty on rollovers from one retirement account to another, and if you are referring to matching, most companies vest employees at 50% after 1-2 years and 100% after 3.

If it were 3 years, I would probably consider leaving after 3 years (if it were the best option). Unfortunately, everywhere I have worked it takes at least 5 years to fully vest. On top of that, most new jobs I've had don't give you a 401k at all until you have been there for 1 full year. I know 401k isn't everything, but its obviously a good thing to have.

There's also some other things, like in my field, once you earn trust you get to work from home. There would be a period of clown-car commuting at new jobs which lowers the quality of life. Also difficulty of negotiating the same amount of vacation as the previous company, and the time/effort of getting a new job. Also, some give you crap vacation until you have been there for a year, so no traveling that year.

I think job hopping would be great closer to FIRE, since you could do 6 or 12 month contract jobs which pay 20% or more. Until then, I have found that the CONs outweigh the PROs in my field (tech) and location.

However, to get where I am now, I did quite a bit of job hopping.

LibrarIan

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #75 on: March 21, 2016, 09:56:06 AM »
Millennial here. Didn't read every comment, but I did pop in to tell this funny little story.

My company had a management meeting recently with all the "important" people present. I was not included, but I got the tl;dr afterwards. Basically the meeting was about how to get/retain millennials. Those presentation consisted mostly of people 40 and over. They were not too pleased with the meeting.

Slides I saw afterward from one attendee generalized things millennials look for in a job. Flexibility, work from home, high pay, fast advancement, etc. Basically things anyone would be glad to have in a job. So while the speaker was presenting everyone was more or less fuming. "How come millennials get to be the ones that we cater to with awesome stuff?" seemed to be the outcome. That speaker was eventually fired for being pretty useless overall.

For some context, the meeting happened because someone learned that in my area there were something like 300 IT jobs open at the time paying really well, so conceivably a lot of our company could go get better jobs. They were scared people would leave (particularly millennials since they generally aren't as tied down).
« Last Edit: June 22, 2017, 01:00:47 PM by LibrarIan »

ImCheap

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #76 on: March 21, 2016, 10:25:19 AM »
I have one millennial under my roof, at the end the millennial age bracket. One thing I noticed with this kid and most of his classmates they don't really care about fancy cars, a $3,000 clunker is just fine if they even have a car at all. A big old house is of no importance, they just don't care about most material things.

I give them a lot of credit. The part I love the most, corporate America has no clue how to deal with them. I'm glad they are making their own path, I give them credit for not wanting to follow the sheep in front of them. Maybe the older ones in the millennial bracket differs from the young crowd, it is about a 20 year age bracket. I hope to live long enough to see how it turns out.

Helvegen

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #77 on: March 21, 2016, 10:27:48 AM »
Yes, that is reality. There is very little reason to give away your life to long hours and extreme effort, when as soon as the wind blows in a different direction, you're history. Or if you're "lucky" get a 2% raise and a certificate for exemplary performance in most industries. Any other outcomes are nice outlying events over the course of a long career that happen every now and then when the conditions line up. Mr. Hedgefund is quite young, think he knows it all and will never be the cog in the wheel that gets used up, taken advantage of, and occasionally thrown away.

I can't blame the millenials who observe reality and acting accordingly.

I try to drive this point home to my brother. He isn't an idiot, but he is fatally committed to the idea that hard work will always be rewarded. Maybe for his career in general, but not for this particular company. It is an abusive relationship and he just won't see it. If he wants to have a life and more money, he has to leave. But he holds out the hope that if he can just prove what a hard worker he is for working 90 hour weeks for months straight (this is not hyperbole!), they will give him the promotion and pay increase he has been asking for and they have been dangling over him for the past two years. Ugh, get over it. They have no intention of doing either of those things and probably he will be laid off anyway when the moment arrives just like they laid off so many of his co-workers...after they said they wouldn't. SMH.

Fastfwd

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #78 on: March 21, 2016, 10:29:29 AM »
Hmm. Not a millenial, but minimum work for maximum benefit sounds pretty good.  This whole maximum work for crappy wages really isn't making me happy, I'm willing to try something else.

It's not millenials that came up with work smart, not hard.

ysette9

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #79 on: March 21, 2016, 11:22:16 AM »
Quote
A good performance review? Who cares. Why should I put in extra hours and extra work to get... an "exceeds expectations" instead of a "meets expectations" review? Why should that matter to me? It only matters if companies attach significant incentive to that, and let's be real. A great performance review instead of an "average" one in nearly all companies is a ... 1-2% difference in raise? Maybe?

We are all well versed in how significant 1% in asset management fees can erode your portfolio returns over time. Similarly, as a manager I have seen how the compounded effects of "exceeds expectations" and an extra 1-2% raise each year results in stronger employees making quite a bit more than their middling coworkers. When we give our salary increase notices it includes a line which shows how much an employee's salary has increased over the previous 5 years. Seeing the collection of those data for the groups I manage has been eye-opening.

Fastfwd

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #80 on: March 21, 2016, 11:28:51 AM »
Quote
A good performance review? Who cares. Why should I put in extra hours and extra work to get... an "exceeds expectations" instead of a "meets expectations" review? Why should that matter to me? It only matters if companies attach significant incentive to that, and let's be real. A great performance review instead of an "average" one in nearly all companies is a ... 1-2% difference in raise? Maybe?

We are all well versed in how significant 1% in asset management fees can erode your portfolio returns over time. Similarly, as a manager I have seen how the compounded effects of "exceeds expectations" and an extra 1-2% raise each year results in stronger employees making quite a bit more than their middling coworkers. When we give our salary increase notices it includes a line which shows how much an employee's salary has increased over the previous 5 years. Seeing the collection of those data for the groups I manage has been eye-opening.

My experience has been that getting above average ratings is incredibly hard and often impossible. Managers can only nominate 1-2 person as above average so most end up average or below. The one time when I was rated above I still did not get any significant bonus or raise. You want a raise you do it by leaving the company or threatening to leave. I prefer leaving because who wants to work together after that?

I suspect that HR studies have been made that showed that overall not giving raises and hiring new people is less costly that paying enough to keep people. Not sure how they account for lost experience/productivity due to employee turnover.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #81 on: March 21, 2016, 11:31:47 AM »

Lose 10%? Huh?
There is no early withdrawal penalty on rollovers from one retirement account to another, and if you are referring to matching, most companies vest employees at 50% after 1-2 years and 100% after 3.

3 years would be nice. The lowest graduating vesting schedule I've seen at a place I interviewed was 5 years.  And I've noticed a huge number of disgruntled employees leaving as soon as that hits...

My current job is 2 years, but it is all or nothing. Still 2 years is a good thing. And it's a great contribution.

My husband's current employeer vests at 8 years. Which is ridiculous. They don't have a good match either.

I'm a red panda

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #82 on: March 21, 2016, 11:32:08 AM »
I hear a lot at work and management seminars that millennials are totally different, we have to change the way we work, handle employees, etc.  I find this hard to believe.  I can't imagine these folks are really that different than the current crop of early 30s, early 40s folks.  Weird.
(emphasis mine)
To be fair, early 30s ARE millenials.


(I'm 34, and a millennial by birth year.  Though the job hopping does apply to me. If a company isn't going to be loyal to me, why should I be loyal to them?)

ysette9

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #83 on: March 21, 2016, 11:43:14 AM »
Quote
I suspect that HR studies have been made that showed that overall not giving raises and hiring new people is less costly that paying enough to keep people. Not sure how they account for lost experience/productivity due to employee turnover.

This is where I suspect the differences in job type and industry and are going to come into play big time. I know that my (old-school) industry has a history of retaining people for life, though of course that is changing dramatically now, and focuses on reducing attrition. Part of that is the fact that it takes so long to train people, so therefore it is costly to replace someone. Unlike other companies/industries, we have also been blessed to get raises every year with amounts varying individually based on performance and market. I know my husband (traditional Silicon Valley tech companies) has not always been able to count on yearly raises and has worked in places where the only way to get a raise is to find a new job. We are both highly educated Oregon Trail generation (old millenials). I am a lifer at my company while he goes to a new company every 2-3 years. We are both just responding to the environments we work in and both strategies are correct for where we are. Incidentally, we earned within a couple $k of each other last year.

JCfire

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #84 on: March 21, 2016, 11:52:40 AM »
Try 5-7% difference.  I'm not surprised, as mostly the ones who do minimum work leave to some dead end corporate job where they make $60-$70K with no real chance for advancement, or they are "coached" out at a certain level.

I suspect your company is an extreme outlier in this regard.

If the name "hedgefund10" indicates that he or she works for a hedge fund, or effectively any other buy-side asset management firm, particularly in a portfolio management role, then it's really the industry that is an extreme outlier, rather than the company being odd for its industry.

nobodyspecial

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #85 on: March 21, 2016, 12:10:26 PM »
Similarly, as a manager I have seen how the compounded effects of "exceeds expectations" and an extra 1-2% raise each year results in stronger employees making quite a bit more than their middling coworkers.
Yep, doing 50% more work than your colleagues for a 1% raise really adds up over 40 years!
Alternately. Switching jobs for a 20% rise every 2-3years and growing a network of people you have worked with and who will recommend you, so you can jump into consultancy - that really adds up

JLee

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #86 on: March 21, 2016, 12:22:56 PM »
Similarly, as a manager I have seen how the compounded effects of "exceeds expectations" and an extra 1-2% raise each year results in stronger employees making quite a bit more than their middling coworkers.
Yep, doing 50% more work than your colleagues for a 1% raise really adds up over 40 years!
Alternately. Switching jobs for a 20% rise every 2-3years and growing a network of people you have worked with and who will recommend you, so you can jump into consultancy - that really adds up

Yep. My last jump was for a 60% raise (with benefits worth more than twice what they were previously).

ormaybemidgets

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #87 on: March 21, 2016, 01:27:30 PM »
The only problem I see with millennials is that they job hop constantly.

At work its like "yay finally another person below 30!" and then the person leaves 3 months later. The only way they stay is if they have a baby depending on them, or some millenials that just have a boomer type of mindset.. This has happens several times a year on my team.  They always hire them as contractors so they can leave easily. I would probably do the same, however, if I was a contractor and had no un-vested retirement benefits to lose.
That may be a problem for you, but its a necessary evil for millennials.
I am a millennial, and every job I've gotten since graduation has been temporary, either because it was dependent on funding/legislative approval, or because it was designed that way. Your post makes it sound like the company was forced to stop offering regular full-time-with-benefits positions in favor of temp contract positions because the millennials were leaving, but the truth is that companies are moving to temp positions because that means that they don't have to pay benefits and they can fire you easily when the contract's up. And millennials are still breaking down the door for them because they're the only jobs out there. I would leave almost any temporary position for almost any permanent position (reasonably comparable positions, obviously).

big_owl

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #88 on: March 21, 2016, 02:04:15 PM »

I'm pretty sure Gen Xers were the first generation written about in the media who took this mentality.  I know I did however I'm not putting a generation into a one size fits all box because of what the media wrote.  Over the years I've done my very best to minimize work related activity interfering with family continually.  That does not mean it never does, and vice versa.  The bond between employee and employer has been shattered long ago and is the real issue.  I long for the days when you could not be bothered once you left work.

As a Gen X, this.  One of the perks of being an hourly employee is getting overtime pay.  You want me to come in early or stay late or sacrifice my Saturday morning?  That's gonna cost you big time.  Last week I took some time off to visit family in Florida, and when I came back overtime was in place because we were behind.  Since overtime isn't paid if vacation or discretionary time is used, guess who wasn't altering their schedule?

In the salary world we call that "freetime"!  As in...working for free. 

It happens from time to time.  And whether the employer knows it or not, the employee *always* finds ways to make up that freetime in the end...

zephyr911

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #89 on: March 21, 2016, 02:26:30 PM »
My company had a management meeting recently with all the "important" people present. I was not included, but I got the tl;dr afterwards. Basically the meeting was about how to get/retain millennials. Those present consisted mostly of people 40 and over.
And that pretty much says it all.
Quote
Slides I saw afterward from one attendee generalized things millennials look for in a job. Flexibility, work from home, high pay, fast advancement, etc. Basically things anyone would be glad to have in a job. So while the speaker was presenting everyone more or less fuming. "How come millennials get to be the ones that we cater to with awesome stuff?" seemed to be the outcome. That speaker was eventually fired for being pretty useless overall.
As a late X'er, and one of the youngest workers in an office that just rolled out a telework program, I find that pretty funny. Everyone likes all of those things. Even our 50-somethings with an Army retirement under their belts love working from their home office once a pay period. Rapid advancement is rare, but at least our pay is good and they're working on the flexibility part. What all those 40+ types should be asking themselves is, why don't they demand it too? They have more experience and theoretically more marketable skills.

And of course, holding the meeting without bringing in any millennials is like a Congressional committee of septegenarian males debating women's health policy.
Quote
For some context, the meeting happened because someone learned that in my area there were something like 300 IT jobs open at the time paying really well, so conceivably a lot of our company could go get better jobs. They were scared people would leave (particularly millennials since they generally aren't as tied down).
Oh, god forbid they should be forced to offer competitive compensation. Woe is thee! :P

cube.37

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #90 on: March 21, 2016, 02:44:29 PM »
Similarly, as a manager I have seen how the compounded effects of "exceeds expectations" and an extra 1-2% raise each year results in stronger employees making quite a bit more than their middling coworkers.
Yep, doing 50% more work than your colleagues for a 1% raise really adds up over 40 years!
Alternately. Switching jobs for a 20% rise every 2-3years and growing a network of people you have worked with and who will recommend you, so you can jump into consultancy - that really adds up

Yep. My last jump was for a 60% raise (with benefits worth more than twice what they were previously).

Millennial here, 23. My impression is that because millennials grew up with technology and everything at our fingertips, we are much less patient. We expect things to get done and implemented immediately, promotions to happen within a year or two, money to fall from the sky after working hard for one year, etc.

My take on job hopping: As someone in the executive recruiting industry, job hopping is viewed in a very negative light once you're past a certain age. Moving jobs a few times in your 20's is fine to settle into a field/industry, but every two-three years past 30, and especially in your 40s isn't. We've tossed plenty of profiles because the candidate hasn't been at a job longer than 2-3 years in the past 10 years.

Even in the junior level role that I worked on a few months ago, the manager wouldn't see anyone who had just switched jobs within a year, or worked at several companies within a few years. His thinking was that if someone is looking for a job before hitting the 1 year mark, the candidate has no loyalty and will jump ship after receiving training. I think hiring managers are slowly starting to compensate for us twitchy millennials. When you do make the hop for a new job, make sure it's enough of a pay raise and be fairly confident you can stick it out for a while.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 02:46:34 PM by cube.37 »

Kitsune

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #91 on: March 21, 2016, 03:06:21 PM »
Similarly, as a manager I have seen how the compounded effects of "exceeds expectations" and an extra 1-2% raise each year results in stronger employees making quite a bit more than their middling coworkers.
Yep, doing 50% more work than your colleagues for a 1% raise really adds up over 40 years!
Alternately. Switching jobs for a 20% rise every 2-3years and growing a network of people you have worked with and who will recommend you, so you can jump into consultancy - that really adds up

This. I got hired at my last job (50% increase over previous one) and someone 2 years younger than I was was complaining about why she wasn't making more money, because she'd been promoted 4 times in 7 years, and she didn't understand why the newly hired people had money to do things like buy houses... We had the same job. Turns out they were paying her 15k/year less than me (not sex-based discrimination; we're both women).

I'm now making 5k/year less than at that job, for 50% of the hours worked, in a more satisfying job.mwith free time for hobbies and side projects. You guys: WHY WOULD ANYONE NOT LEAVE. Prizing loyalty over sense seems... Short-sighted.

And, quite frankly, millennials (I'm 32, so I borderline qualify) have grown up seeing our parents get shafted by NOT switching jobs. Why would we have extreme loyalty to corporations we know are willing to shaft us, and in the meantime are willing to overwork and underpay?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 03:13:48 PM by Kitsune »

JLee

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #92 on: March 21, 2016, 03:07:23 PM »
Similarly, as a manager I have seen how the compounded effects of "exceeds expectations" and an extra 1-2% raise each year results in stronger employees making quite a bit more than their middling coworkers.
Yep, doing 50% more work than your colleagues for a 1% raise really adds up over 40 years!
Alternately. Switching jobs for a 20% rise every 2-3years and growing a network of people you have worked with and who will recommend you, so you can jump into consultancy - that really adds up

Yep. My last jump was for a 60% raise (with benefits worth more than twice what they were previously).

Millennial here, 23. My impression is that because millennials grew up with technology and everything at our fingertips, we are much less patient. We expect things to get done and implemented immediately, promotions to happen within a year or two, money to fall from the sky after working hard for one year, etc.

My take on job hopping: As someone in the executive recruiting industry, job hopping is viewed in a very negative light once you're past a certain age. Moving jobs a few times in your 20's is fine to settle into a field/industry, but every two-three years past 30, and especially in your 40s isn't. We've tossed plenty of profiles because the candidate hasn't been at a job longer than 2-3 years in the past 10 years.

Even in the junior level role that I worked on a few months ago, the manager wouldn't see anyone who had just switched jobs within a year, or worked at several companies within a few years. His thinking was that if someone is looking for a job before hitting the 1 year mark, the candidate has no loyalty and will jump ship after receiving training. I think hiring managers are slowly starting to compensate for us twitchy millennials. When you do make the hop for a new job, make sure it's enough of a pay raise and be fairly confident you can stick it out for a while.

That's pretty funny. Companies have no loyalty to employees, but somehow they expect it.  If salary/benefits were competitive, people would likely stick around longer!

hedgefund10

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #93 on: March 21, 2016, 05:37:49 PM »
The millennials represent a sea change, politically, for this country.  And they have much different core values than the Boomers, in particular.  These 2 facts make a lot of (conservative) people very, very uncomfortable.  So they make fun of the millennials at every opportunity, because they fear the inevitable change they represent. 

For myself (a Gen-X'er), with regard to the changes you are bringing - I say "Thank You!" and "It's about d@mn time".

The younger millenials that I have supervised, want to do the minimum amount of work to get maximum benefit.  The older people I have supervised don't seem to have this mentality.

Hmm. Not a millenial, but minimum work for maximum benefit sounds pretty good.  This whole maximum work for crappy wages really isn't making me happy, I'm willing to try something else.

Don't get mad when I pick the other person putting in more work for a bigger raise.
Except it doesn't work that way. Typically, a new person getting hired in from outside comes in at a higher rate than the people who remain.

Not how it works in public accounting

Oh, and here's a lovely calculator that I came across some months ago. It lets you plug in wages to figure out what income percentile you'd land in as an 18-34 year old:

http://fusion.net/story/41833/wealth-gap-calculator-are-you-in-the-millennial-one-percent/

From trial and error, I found that the 50th percentile for Gen Y is ~27.5k. The 90th percentile begins around 59k, and the 99th percentile begins at around 106.5k.

Hah, I might be part of the 1%, albeit only in my age group so it doesn't really count... I never expected that to happen. :P

boognish

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #94 on: March 21, 2016, 08:33:18 PM »
Job hopping snake person here.

I'm about to start a new job in a few weeks for a 20% pay raise. I was only with my previous employer for 1.5 years, but I believe that the exchange was mutually beneficial for both parties. I hit the ground running and was quickly doing the equivalent work to employees with more senior positions.

Perhaps it's an unreasonable, but more frequent reviews and opportunities for advancement would keep employees of my ilk around. I'm not tied down by a family or mortgage, and have no reason to hang around for five years for the chance at a significant raise when I can find one on the market every few years.

This will be my third job in five years since graduating. Each new position has been an improved title and salary, and I haven't had an issue finding offers (yet).

tobitonic

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #95 on: March 21, 2016, 08:45:51 PM »
Regarding job hopping, I went from a 16k job to a 22k job to a 24k job to a 35k job to a 23k job to a 24k job to a 46k job in about 3 years. If I'd stuck with the 16k job, I'd probably still be at around 16-17k right now. I fully agree with the perspective that if you want a lot more money, you need to switch jobs.

My current job will probably be my "forever" job unless I get fired or until I retire, because it's been my goal for the last several years. The salary is more than good enough (the median salary in my profession is 28k), and the raises are annual. We're very fortunate.

Elliot

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #96 on: March 21, 2016, 09:57:28 PM »
I got with my org right out of college (was recruited while still in) and I stay because of the mission of the org and my passion for my work. My salary is barely competitive and the general red tape is brutal.

babysnowbyrd

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #97 on: March 22, 2016, 03:57:05 AM »
The influx of millennial articles is nothing more than baby boomers trying to place blame on others for situations in this country that their generation has dicked up. More than that, they are the ones who birthed and raised this current generation, so they definitely shouldn't be throwing stones.

I read many of the articles the OP alluded to for the sheer amusement at knowing that myself, and likely everyone on this forum in the age bracket the author is referring to, by and large will crap all over the financial achievements of your average or even above average individual from the older generations.

I'm an older millennial, and I feel that there are more conflicting information ABOUT Millennials and TO Millennials than in previous generations. This thread sums up some of the issues:

My company had a management meeting recently with all the "important" people present. I was not included, but I got the tl;dr afterwards. Basically the meeting was about how to get/retain millennials. Those present consisted mostly of people 40 and over.
And that pretty much says it all.
Quote
Slides I saw afterward from one attendee generalized things millennials look for in a job. Flexibility, work from home, high pay, fast advancement, etc. Basically things anyone would be glad to have in a job. So while the speaker was presenting everyone more or less fuming. "How come millennials get to be the ones that we cater to with awesome stuff?" seemed to be the outcome. That speaker was eventually fired for being pretty useless overall.
As a late X'er, and one of the youngest workers in an office that just rolled out a telework program, I find that pretty funny. Everyone likes all of those things. Even our 50-somethings with an Army retirement under their belts love working from their home office once a pay period. Rapid advancement is rare, but at least our pay is good and they're working on the flexibility part. What all those 40+ types should be asking themselves is, why don't they demand it too? They have more experience and theoretically more marketable skills.

And of course, holding the meeting without bringing in any millennials is like a Congressional committee of septegenarian males debating women's health policy.
Quote
For some context, the meeting happened because someone learned that in my area there were something like 300 IT jobs open at the time paying really well, so conceivably a lot of our company could go get better jobs. They were scared people would leave (particularly millennials since they generally aren't as tied down).
Oh, god forbid they should be forced to offer competitive compensation. Woe is thee! :P

Sometimes I feel that literally any choice I make about my lifestyle (especially regarding work) is judged by the older generation. Some conflicting ideas come from the same people.

There's so many, but I think I can narrow down a lot of the work-related ones into two main camps, I'll call them Individual and Corporate.

The Individualistic advice encourages Millennials with messages about making a difference and following your dreams/passions. The messages are about staying creative, keeping your personality, being true to yourself etc. They encourage a more balanced lifestyle (including those with flexible/alternative schedules) with time for family and things that bring you joy. You "design" your work to fit the lifestyle that you want and the pieces fit together as an intricate whole. At best you can still make a lot of money, but if you don't and you're happy it's still ok.

If you DON'T structure your life this way, the judgement is you're the Corporate pawn, part of the unhappy masses. You live for the company, subject to terrible bosses, coworkers, salary and conditions. Life events that interrupt your 9-5 company time make you look like an unreliable and "bad" employee. You're seen as a commodity to be used up as much as possible to increase the revenue for the company, of which very little will trickle back down to you. You'll be more depressed and anxious, your dreams from your younger years sadly fading away to a dim memory you cry about in your old age when your friends are gone and your family are too busy for you like you were too busy for them. This lifestyle is mocked/commiserated with in thing like the movie "Office Space" and Dilbert Comics.

It's your own fault if you're in the Corporate group. You're deliberately and foolishly giving away prime time in your life to a Company that cares only about numbers and the bottom line. You foolishly hope that your supervisors and managers actually care about you and your contribution and that you will be compensated appropriately. You're in Corporate because you lost/lack your ambition, creativity, and dreams. You are underpaid and overworked because you sell yourself and your dreams short.

In the Corporate camp, a large part of your identity is defined by your job title. You're a team player. You get a good, reliable job that allows you to support yourself and your family. Ambition and creativity can be put to good use to making the Company run better and be more profitable which helps everyone who works there. Your value is measured by both time and contribution. You start out small but can work your way up the good old fashioned way. In the end you've had a long career you can be proud of. You're an example of working hard the normal way and contributing the Company that kept you and your family fed and housed. Hard work is honorable no matter how menial the job may be to society. As my grandmother used to say, "If they pay you $1 to clean toilets, clean like they're paying you $2." Good workers are picked for better opportunities and more prestige.

The judgement from this group for Individuals is that they are disloyal, have an overinflated sense of self-worth and are the poster-children for the term "entitled." They want more benefits and less hours, more flexibility and more pay and will quickly jump ship to other jobs that may provide more of these things. They think they deserve these things just because they exist, rather than putting in the time and commitment that others before them have. They are selfish and put their own wants above other's needs. They don't want to do the 9-5 routine because they are slackers and want to get out of staying and working hard like their peers. They're the annoying new guys always coming in thinking they have better ideas and wanting to change things around without considering how the old ways were working perfectly fine.

You're foolish if you're in the Individual camp. Your disillusionment with Corporate stems from immaturity and naivete. You haven't grown up. Especially if you're struggling financially or are still figuring out what you want. You're out there chasing a rainbow and in the end you'll regret the time wasted trying to "find yourself" and "make a difference in the world" when you're behind the people who were good workers and chose responsibility. You don't really understand how the world works, and we can't wait for reality to slap you in the face.
 

babysnowbyrd

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #98 on: March 22, 2016, 04:03:00 AM »
The younger millenials that I have supervised, want to do the minimum amount of work to get maximum benefit.  The older people I have supervised don't seem to have this mentality.

Sounds like a good business model to me.  We reward companies for this mindset; why should individuals be different?

What companies?
Is that not what capitalism is based on?  The goal of business is to maximize profit.  The more one can cut costs and find more efficient means to deliver goods and services, the more sucessful a company is.  Am I wrong?

Ok and companies are rewarded in the market place by perceived value add, same as in the labor market. I don't reward minimum work with maximum pay. Sorry.

Hedgefund10, one word makes a huge difference in meaning.

Jack

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Re: Enough with this "millenial" bullshit!
« Reply #99 on: March 22, 2016, 08:37:06 AM »
Oregon Trail generation is a great label for the weirdness of being born in the early '80s.  I'm an '84 kid, and I don't think Gen X or Gen Y labels fit either (though I did have an email address in high school).

Perfect! Being able to remember the Time Before the Internet really does make people our age different from the stereotypical Millennials. (I got my first computer -- a Tandy 286 running DOS -- at age 6 or so, but never had Compuserve or BBS access and didn't get AOL until I was about 12.)



Regarding job-hopping:

I've had three "real" jobs since graduating college. The first one paid about $40K, had crappy benefits, and gave no raise. The second paid about $65K, had mediocre benefits and gave an insultingly-low raise. The third pays about $80K (plus bonus), has good benefits and gives good raises. If I had stayed at the first company, I'd be way worse off than I am now. Can you blame me for job-hopping?