Author Topic: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?  (Read 43316 times)

gluskap

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Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« on: March 26, 2015, 04:06:30 PM »
So I've been dreaming about the day when I will be ready to FIRE and thinking about how I would go about giving my notice.  I read on Financial Samurai's blog about how he was able to engineer his own layoff and it sounded like a great idea.  You could potentially get severance pay, cobra benefits, as well as unemployment benefits.  Just wondering if anybody else has successfully done this and how they went about doing it?

When you are ready to FIRE, do you just start sucking at your job and not caring until they fire or lay you off?  Does this seem like a cop out though? I don't want to leave on bad terms but on the other hand, I also don't want to leave so much money on the table either by quitting.  In a way isn't this the point of having F you money so that you don't care what your boss or management thinks?

seattlecyclone

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2015, 04:18:20 PM »
Seems a bit sleazy to me. I would feel bad about it. As to the benefits, COBRA is available if you leave a job voluntarily. Unemployment insurance is only paid to those who are looking for more work, which you wouldn't be. That just leaves severance pay.

Emg03063

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2015, 04:21:11 PM »
You don't have to suck at your job; simply dictate the terms of your employment in your favor.  Don't take on assignments you don't want to do, and don't agree to deadlines that are going to put you under stress.  Set your hours to your liking.  When your boss decides that all this makes you "unmanageable", you'll be the first to get let go when it's layoff time.

MrsPete

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2015, 04:25:47 PM »
Definitely sleazy. 

ColorOfCash

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2015, 04:32:31 PM »
For me "engineering your own layoff" means you get yourself transferred onto the team you know that will be phased out in 6-12 months (product that will be end of life, the product everyone is leaving because they know it's not going anywhere). When that team is phased out, you negotiate a severance package as you leave out the door. I've had that opportunity once and a co-worker ended up in a similar situation this year.

Spork

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2015, 04:55:56 PM »
I can't say I've engineered a layoff (especially successfully).

I have been at two different jobs where it was plausible that a layoff might happen.  One of them: we had multiple layoffs over many years.  (I was there 18 years.)   At both of these jobs I reached a point where I let my manager know the following:
* if there was a layoff, I'd be okay and there would be no hard feelings
* if there was a choice between people, they could put me at the front of the line (in particular in regard to folks that I knew were not in a financial situation to handle it).

I ended up giving notice at both of these jobs... so don't consider this "success."   However, I don't think it was the least bit unethical.  I continued to do the same job I did before.

gluskap

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2015, 04:58:50 PM »
Seems a bit sleazy to me. I would feel bad about it. As to the benefits, COBRA is available if you leave a job voluntarily. Unemployment insurance is only paid to those who are looking for more work, which you wouldn't be. That just leaves severance pay.

Financial Samurai seems to say that you can negotiate for your employer to pay for 6 months of COBRA premiums for you as part of your layoff package.  As for unemployment benefits, would you still get paid if you are looking for a job but decide you don't want to accept certain offers?  Or if you looked for a different type of job?  Say you don't want to work full time salaried any more but are still looking for a part time low stress job just for fun?  Seems like you are paying into this for many years while you are working so why not take advantage of using it before you leave your last full time job?

I guess what I mean by "sucking" at your job is not to be incompetent on purpose but more just not being an over achiever.  To essentially stop playing the politics game to try and get ahead.  To leave early if you've finished your work instead of staying late to look better to your boss.  Doing what your job entails but not going out of your way to put yourself under extra stress. Not caring instead of being stressed out when they place unreasonable expectations on what you can accomplish.  And not worrying about what everyone is going to think if you do X, Y, Z.  I just think having this type of care free attitude would make work a lot more enjoyable so that your last year or two wouldn't be so bad.  And if you're lucky and they decide to lay you off and replace you with someone that is willing to be the overachiever then you can collect on these extra benefits (severance, insurance, unemployment benefits) to reach FIRE that much earlier.

desk_jockey

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2015, 05:23:27 PM »
To essentially stop playing the politics game to try and get ahead.  To leave early if you've finished your work instead of staying late to look better to your boss.  Doing what your job entails but not going out of your way to put yourself under extra stress. Not caring instead of being stressed out when they place unreasonable expectations on what you can accomplish.  And not worrying about what everyone is going to think if you do X, Y, Z.  I just think having this type of care free attitude would make work a lot more enjoyable so that your last year or two wouldn't be so bad. 

I think a lot of us will to do that as we FI and near RE, but I don't think that's what the Financial Samurai means by engineering a layoff.  I haven't felt the need to buy his eBook to check for certain. 

If you're in a large enough company or one that does a lot of project based work or consulting, then I think ColorOfCash's suggestion is an ethical and honorable way to approach it.    It's not likely happen in my company, but we do have periodic lay-offs.   If the timing is right, I'll try position myself for a layoff similar to how Spork described doing it, but recognizing even that has a low chance of "winning" a lay-off spot for me. 


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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2015, 05:31:07 PM »
About a year earlier there had been offers of redundancy around, and my boss had said at the time anyone who wanted one could have one, but I wasn't ready to retire at that stage. When I FIREd I told him I was trying to work out my options - to go or to stay part time. He was fine with part time, and said the offer of redundancy was still there, as he needed to get rid of a few more positions, so I took it. After I left, things became tighter, and they got rid of people to get the numbers down, so I saved someone who wanted to stay from getting the shove.

mathlete

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2015, 05:33:36 PM »
I think intentionally sucking is uncool. If you're ready to leave, then leave.

If you're not ready to leave though, I think being clear about how much work / effort you're willing to put into the job is a good idea. Maybe you can work out a part time thing or something.

Retire-Canada

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2015, 07:12:38 PM »
I guess what I mean by "sucking" at your job is not to be incompetent on purpose but more just not being an over achiever.  To essentially stop playing the politics game to try and get ahead.  To leave early if you've finished your work instead of staying late to look better to your boss.  Doing what your job entails but not going out of your way to put yourself under extra stress. Not caring instead of being stressed out when they place unreasonable expectations on what you can accomplish.  And not worrying about what everyone is going to think if you do X, Y, Z.  I just think having this type of care free attitude would make work a lot more enjoyable so that your last year or two wouldn't be so bad.  And if you're lucky and they decide to lay you off and replace you with someone that is willing to be the overachiever then you can collect on these extra benefits (severance, insurance, unemployment benefits) to reach FIRE that much earlier.

Problem is that attitude will probably get you promoted! ;-)



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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2015, 08:57:42 PM »
The Bobs: We notice you've been missing a lot of work lately, Peter...

Peter: Well, I wouldn't say I've been missing it, Bob.

The Bobs: Congratulations, you've been promoted, Peter!

dividendman

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2015, 09:27:47 PM »
I've seen a few of these threads and chimed in on a couple where people think slacking off, purposefully sucking etc. at work is unethical or sleazy. I want to make the same point here: ethics and business only match when it is in the best financial interest of the business.

The business is not concerned with the "ethics" of firing you or laying you off or if it's sleazy to constantly harp on positive messages and try to spin every thing positively even if the financials are going down the toilet.

If MegaCorp thought it would make them a lot of money by getting someone to yell at you and embarrass you and fire you they'd do it. Businesses are there to maximize profit in part by giving you the absolute minimum.

Think of yourself as a business of one. Your job is to maximize your own profit (however you define that: happiness, less stress, more money etc.) while giving up the minimum.

If you want to slack off to engineer your own layoff I see nothing unethical or sleazy about it.

Is it ethical to pay a working mom $7 an hour to clean hotel rooms while paying a Kim Kardashian millions to complain about how rich she is on TV? My answer is there is no answer because ethics does not enter into sphere of business.

desk_jockey

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2015, 10:36:26 PM »
Is it ethical to pay a working mom $7 an hour to clean hotel rooms while paying a Kim Kardashian millions to complain about how rich she is on TV? My answer is there is no answer because ethics does not enter into sphere of business.

At the risk of further detracting from the OP's question, no it is not ethical to pay a working mom $7.00 an hour to clean anything in the US precisely because that is less than the federal minimum wage and the worker has expectations that the employer is acting withing employment law.   Kim Kardashian unfortunately is entertainment and equally is earning what the market will bare; stop paying attention to her and her earnings will drop.   

Ethics is very much in the sphere of business.   I'm afraid with the Kardashian comparison that you're confusing ethics with the appearance of fairness or societal worth.

It is not ethical to be an hourly worker who punches the clock and leaves work to do other things while racking up paid hours.  Similarly it's not ethical for a salaried employee to completely slack off and not do the job that  you accepted.    It's not the same as easing the work load a bid; no employer can reasonably expect 100% productivity 100% of the time.   

Just because one is outraged at the injustices of the wall street bankers doesn't make it ethical to receive payment from your employer while intentionally not doing the things for which the payment is made.

bondo

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2015, 11:20:51 PM »
So after 30-40 years of paying for other people's entitlements its "sleazy" to get a very, very small piece at the very end?  Screw that.  I would engineer a layoff for sure. 

soccerluvof4

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2015, 05:24:24 AM »
two wrongs don't make it right. Of course its unethical. When you sign on with a business you have a right to walk away at anytime and in the world of thinking all business is just greed horse shit. There are alot of small business owners that bend over backwards for employees that are never satisfied and it ends up putting them out of business. So yes if you don't want to work get out of there but dont be sleazy to try and take advantage of someone ever.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2015, 05:58:15 AM »
So after 30-40 years of paying for other people's entitlements its "sleazy" to get a very, very small piece at the very end?  Screw that.  I would engineer a layoff for sure.
This kind of attitude sounds a lot like entitlement.

MrsPete

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2015, 06:34:24 AM »
For me "engineering your own layoff" means you get yourself transferred onto the team you know that will be phased out in 6-12 months (product that will be end of life, the product everyone is leaving because they know it's not going anywhere). When that team is phased out, you negotiate a severance package as you leave out the door. I've had that opportunity once and a co-worker ended up in a similar situation this year.
If the company knows they're phasing out that team, wouldn't they be morons to transfer people INTO that unit? 
Is it ethical to pay a working mom $7 an hour to clean hotel rooms while paying a Kim Kardashian millions to complain about how rich she is on TV? My answer is there is no answer because ethics does not enter into sphere of business.
The working mom made an agreement to clean those hotel rooms.  I'd assume that she chose that job because it was the best option available for her, given her skills and abilities.  If they come back six months later and say, "We want you to start cleaning these rooms for $5", that'd be unfair.  But as long as the two parties stick to their agreement, nothing's immoral or unethical.  Incidentally, a teacher friend of mine left teaching and is now cleaning offices in the evenings (after her husband comes home); with two small children who otherwise would've needed day care, she's making more money than she was teaching.  Another teacher friend made a similar choice:  She's home with her two small girls during the day and is waiting tables in the evenings.  While it's a tough row to hoe, they made choices based upon the options available to them -- it's fair.

While I have no real knowledge of Kim K, I assume she did the same thing:  She entered into an agreement with the TV people to whine on some reality show.  She's the "lucky" one in a billion person who stumbled into a do-nothing-get-billions situation.  It's inequitable, but it doesn't make the hotel cleaner's situation unfair. 



desk_jockey

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2015, 07:40:44 AM »
If you cannot see the ethical issue as an employee, then you shouldn’t complain when you are the employer.   One day if you hire a plumber at a negotiated rate of $75/hour, don’t say anything when he doubles the hours billed just because the rate negotiated was too low.   Don’t complain if she uses lower grade materials than you contracted, as after all ethics are not in the sphere of your business relationship.

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2015, 07:55:50 AM »
I can't say I've engineered a layoff (especially successfully).

I have been at two different jobs where it was plausible that a layoff might happen.  One of them: we had multiple layoffs over many years.  (I was there 18 years.)   At both of these jobs I reached a point where I let my manager know the following:
* if there was a layoff, I'd be okay and there would be no hard feelings
* if there was a choice between people, they could put me at the front of the line (in particular in regard to folks that I knew were not in a financial situation to handle it).

I ended up giving notice at both of these jobs... so don't consider this "success."   However, I don't think it was the least bit unethical.  I continued to do the same job I did before.

A co-worker and I have decided that raising your hand is the absolute last thing you want to do, unless they actually ask for volunteers (our company never has).  Our reasoning being that if they think you might be on the way out, it is much cheaper (in terms of severance) just to pigeon hole you and/or make your life hell until you quit.  They actually refer to it as "coaching out marginal performers".  In reality, this is much better for the non-FI employee. When they see it coming, they can get out and look for another job, find one, and move on without the stigma of being laid off.   

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2015, 07:58:36 AM »
I don't think it's right to become a slacker so you will get laid off. I do think it's fine to let them know you are willing to get cut when the next round of lay-offs come.  When I was leaving a job a long time ago, my boss asked me to wait a bit so I could be technically laid off and get a small severance.  I was leaving anyway, and it saved someone else's job.  I also had a client who wrote in his yearly performance review that he get laid off when the next rounds hit.  He knew the place he worked was going to be closing eventually and they were doing phase-outs so he wanted to get out while there were still jobs in a fairly tight market.  He walked off with a nice severance package and found a job fairly quickly.

Anyway, I think some situations are fine as long as you are being open and honest. 

mathlete

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2015, 08:20:14 AM »
So after 30-40 years of paying for other people's entitlements its "sleazy" to get a very, very small piece at the very end?  Screw that.  I would engineer a layoff for sure.

If you want to do that, I suppose it is your prerogative, but if you're contemptuous enough towards a company you've worked for for 30-40 years to do this, I guess I'd have to wonder why you worked for such a company for 30-40 years.

If you're ready to leave, then I say leave. Is a few extra paychecks really worth having to put on a whole charade for however long it takes for the employer to lay you off?

hdatontodo

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2015, 08:25:46 AM »
I lucked out once or twice. Things were not looking promising at the end of the ZDS Desktop II contract with the DOD in 1991. I found another job much closer to home (actually some unknown person in mgmt. pointed a headhunter at me.) After I left, I found out they laid off my whole team at ZDS. I ended getting some mystery severance check of $500 some weeks later.

I worked at the new job for 10 years and saw the layoffs happening, so I cleaned out my office on a Friday in 2001. On Monday, I was laid off, but was told I could stay there during the day and say goodbye and pack. They were surprised I already had. I got a many-week severance plus my vacation, and, a coworker had her husband at another company hire me immediately. I've been there since 2001.

My current customer's contract is up next year, so maybe I'll be laid off when I'm 56 with a 30 week severance and punt from working.


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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2015, 08:26:19 AM »
Seems a bit sleazy to me. I would feel bad about it. As to the benefits, COBRA is available if you leave a job voluntarily. Unemployment insurance is only paid to those who are looking for more work, which you wouldn't be. That just leaves severance pay.

Financial Samurai seems to say that you can negotiate for your employer to pay for 6 months of COBRA premiums for you as part of your layoff package.  As for unemployment benefits, would you still get paid if you are looking for a job but decide you don't want to accept certain offers?  Or if you looked for a different type of job?  Say you don't want to work full time salaried any more but are still looking for a part time low stress job just for fun?  Seems like you are paying into this for many years while you are working so why not take advantage of using it before you leave your last full time job?

For unemployment insurance, the expectation is that you are searching for work (and you have to keep a job search log) and that you will accept an offer of "suitable" work if it is offered to you. The last bit can get fuzzy and subjective. If you were laid off from a professional job two months ago and you get offered a receptionist's position at 1/3 your old pay, that isn't really "suitable." Six months later, if you are on extended unemployment, you are expected to widen your standard of "suitable" work. Now, if someone gets laid off from a job paying $75K/year, the vast majority are going to be seeking work on a level/pay close to that- few are intentionally scaling back.

However, you CAN stretch your unemployment payments further by working part time/temping. You'll "burn" through them slower. If you wanted to temp around a bit that's fine as far as the unemployment office is concerned. But then if an employer says "We think you're great and we want to bring you on full time..." and you don't accept that offer, you won't be eligible for further UI benefits.

If you are in a position to quit/retire, and you want to, then do so, and be thankful you are in that position. If you decide to stay but volunteer to be the next to be laid off... then put in a good day's work until that day. Then collect unemployment IF you are actually looking for some time of new job.  The job market is still horrible in many regions, and the UI system is strained by so many people out of work. People cheating the system just make it more difficult for those who need the help.

Luck12

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2015, 08:31:30 AM »
I would do it in a heartbeat!  Companies will do anything in their favor so why shouldn't you?  As far as unemployment, you can just casually search and keep records and you should be able to collect. 

mathlete

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2015, 08:38:43 AM »
I would do it in a heartbeat!  Companies will do anything in their favor so why shouldn't you?  As far as unemployment, you can just casually search and keep records and you should be able to collect.

I'm all for "fighting the man" and everything, but as other posters pointed out here, the people you work with who have to clean up your messes are the ones you're really going to hurt.


Melody

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #26 on: March 27, 2015, 08:39:43 AM »
Work in a cyclical industry (e.g. government, mining) and when the layoffs are immenent let everyone know you'd be up for it... It may or may not work but you've at least behaved ethically.

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #27 on: March 27, 2015, 08:47:08 AM »
No way.
First, it can often take a really long time to be laid off. I think I'd be fairly miserable waiting for it to happen, because I'd have to behave like an asshole to do it (slacking off, doing bad work, etc). 

I'm not willing to let the rest of my team suffer.

J Boogie

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #28 on: March 27, 2015, 08:51:54 AM »
To steer this is a more positive direction, I'd say it's a great time to take some strong ethical stances when you know you have nothing to lose (as you'd be planning on leaving the company soon anyways).  I also agree with those who advocate offering to be laid off if layoffs are on the horizon. 

Regardless of how you feel about your obligation to your employer, think of your team.  Think of the people whose lives would become more stressful because they have to pick up your slack.

This idea totally misses the point.

Iron Mike Sharpe

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #29 on: March 27, 2015, 09:08:24 AM »
If I leave my company, I will be replaced by a younger and cheaper worker.  There is no reason why I shouldn't ask them what they would offer me to free up extra money for them.  They are a corporation.  Everything can be negotiated.

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #30 on: March 27, 2015, 09:15:03 AM »
I can't say I've engineered a layoff (especially successfully).

I have been at two different jobs where it was plausible that a layoff might happen.  One of them: we had multiple layoffs over many years.  (I was there 18 years.)   At both of these jobs I reached a point where I let my manager know the following:
* if there was a layoff, I'd be okay and there would be no hard feelings
* if there was a choice between people, they could put me at the front of the line (in particular in regard to folks that I knew were not in a financial situation to handle it).

I ended up giving notice at both of these jobs... so don't consider this "success."   However, I don't think it was the least bit unethical.  I continued to do the same job I did before.

A co-worker and I have decided that raising your hand is the absolute last thing you want to do, unless they actually ask for volunteers (our company never has).  Our reasoning being that if they think you might be on the way out, it is much cheaper (in terms of severance) just to pigeon hole you and/or make your life hell until you quit.  They actually refer to it as "coaching out marginal performers".  In reality, this is much better for the non-FI employee. When they see it coming, they can get out and look for another job, find one, and move on without the stigma of being laid off.   

LOL.  They know me too well to do that.  In my current position, I'm only here because I asked "how much notice do you want before I ER?"  My manager said 6 months, and I'm in the countdown.  They don't have to make me quit.  I'm here for them because they've asked me to stay 6 months and I made a handshake agreement to do so.

desk_jockey

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #31 on: March 27, 2015, 09:33:52 AM »
There is no reason why I shouldn't ask them what they would offer me to free up extra money for them.  They are a corporation.  Everything can be negotiated.

Absolutely.   Negotiate for additional weeks of severance pay, COBRA coverage, external placement services company, and whatever else you can get from them.

dividendman

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2015, 10:01:50 AM »
People are still missing my point I think. Let me use a trivial example.

If business A enters into a contract with business B and it is more profitable for business A to break the contract because they researched it and figured out that the penalties of breaking the contract (getting sued, suffering a blow to the reputation of the business etc.) is less than what they would gain from breaking contract what must business A do? They must break the contract (and all the MegaCorps do this calculation and do break contracts, that's why businesses sue each other so much). The business is there to maximize profit. The ethics of breaking the word (contract) of the business doesn't enter into the equation.

Now just pretend you are business A. You have entered into a contract with your employer. Sure the contract says you must work in the best interests of the company and help them and do some tasks and some hours. But if your calculation shows you can break the contract (engineer your layoff by slacking off) and it will be of net benefit to you, I am merely saying you should behave like any other business and do what will give you the most profit.

If you cannot see the ethical issue as an employee, then you shouldn’t complain when you are the employer.   One day if you hire a plumber at a negotiated rate of $75/hour, don’t say anything when he doubles the hours billed just because the rate negotiated was too low.   Don’t complain if she uses lower grade materials than you contracted, as after all ethics are not in the sphere of your business relationship.

I am business A and the plumber is business B. If the plumber believes he can break the contract, not get sued, not lose any reputation and gain more money by breaching the contract, then he should behave in a way to maximize his profit as you describe. However, in this case I think it's pretty clear that being taken to court (losing time to do more business and probably losing the case) and losing reputation will likely hurt the plumbers profit more than following through on the contract. The ethics of not violating the contract shouldn't enter into it.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 10:03:22 AM by dividendman »

gluskap

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #33 on: March 27, 2015, 10:42:59 AM »
I just wanted to clarify that by "sucking" I didn't mean to not do any work at all.  I do believe that if you have agreed to a contract to do a certain job for a certain pay that it would be unethical to not do that job and get paid anyways.  And yes that wouldn't be fair if other coworkers had to pick up your slack.  But we've all seen the coworkers that are not trying to get laid off just coast and do the bare minimum.  I was thinking more along those lines. 

I had a coworker who was close to retirement age that would just do the minimum and it sucked because due to her seniority she was making way more than other junior coworkers who were doing much more and getting paid less.  Eventually the company laid her off and gave her a nice severance.  She was unhappy because she probably thought she would collect her paycheck until she actually retired.

I on the other hand have always busted my butt at the job...never taking breaks, eating my lunch at my desk and working through the lunch hour, volunteering for extra work after I've finished my assignments before everyone else, staying late, etc.  But I'm getting to the point where I feel burnt out.  I want to just put in my 8 hours and get home to my family.  I actually don't mind working that much.  The two biggest things I hate about my job are the stress and the politics.  It will be nice when I am FI where I don't care as much.  I like the idea of just being honest with my employer and telling them this is the extent of what I am willing to put in and that I am open to being laid off if they want something more.

desk_jockey

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2015, 11:11:45 AM »
dividendman , I don’t have a problem with you breaking the contract to pursue other better opportunities.  It happens all the time in business.  That’s why contracts have consequences of termination, and in an employment situation that may mean giving back part of starting bonuses or education fees previously paid by ones employer.    In a right-to-work situation, the employment contract is much simpler and I don’t even have a problem if you quit without giving the customary advance notice.

The point many of us seem to be trying to make about engineering your own layoff is not about positioning yourself for layoffs or negotiating the maximum benefit you can get.   The point is purposefully doing a poor job with the intent to force your employer to terminate you with a severance package.  Maybe that’s more extreme than you intended, but that’s what I read into your post and others defending the approach.

To use another analogy of slacking off to get terminated, it’s like forcing a girl to break up with you.  You don’t want to be the one to initiate the breakup so you just start being an increasing dickhead that eventually she can’t take it anymore and ends things.   Meanwhile you’re taking advantage of the relationship benefits as she’s trying to make things work.

I don’t see anything unethical with the reasonable and transparent approach that gluskap mentions immediately above.   I’ll probably consider the same when I’m closer to FIRE.

deborah

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2015, 06:54:54 PM »
Where I live, retrenchment means that the company is getting rid of that position permanently - they cannot legally employ anyone to do that job - of course the work can be distributed...

If management have decided that they have to get rid of people to get their sheets to balance, and your team is going to be without someone, I see it as more ethical to take a redundancy if you are planning on leaving, rather than leaving it to management to sack a person who will have difficulty getting a new job.

When you are retrenched you still have a hard time. People ignore you while you are still there - it's like you have a disease they don't want to catch. They don't want your opinion. And you are left out of the community that is work. If you are marched off, you don't get a chance to do the things you would like to have done for closure - see people for the last time, give people a handover... Having had both happen to me (being told you have to work for another six months and are being retrenched is one of the worst work experience I have ever had), I prefer the second. But both stink.

Note: When I was marched off, I had just resigned, but others at that company were marched off when they were retrenched.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 09:39:51 PM by deborah »

mm1970

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #36 on: March 27, 2015, 07:31:36 PM »
For me "engineering your own layoff" means you get yourself transferred onto the team you know that will be phased out in 6-12 months (product that will be end of life, the product everyone is leaving because they know it's not going anywhere). When that team is phased out, you negotiate a severance package as you leave out the door. I've had that opportunity once and a co-worker ended up in a similar situation this year.
This.

I've known a few people who have gotten laid off this way, but without the negotiation of the package (that was already decided).

Our last layoff, a few people were leaving already - that saved others. But this one had no package of any kind.

marty998

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #37 on: March 27, 2015, 09:32:43 PM »
Careful you don't get fired and end up with no package.

I prefer to believe that the right way to go about this is to design a program that can automate your job.


RootofGood

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #38 on: May 01, 2015, 09:17:01 PM »
My wife sort of put her hand up since she's ready to leave whenever.  Her employer knows she wants to quit, and she's managed to negotiate extra months of paid vacation for the past 2 years. 

I think they have some sort of formula though, so I'm not sure if she would be eligible for the layoff that includes a very generous severance, since they basically use it to purge the bottom 5-10% of dead weight every year (right before Christmas, those loverly bastards).  I've suggested she might want to stop performing so well so she stops earning AA performance reviews every year but she's not that devious. 

Shane

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #39 on: May 01, 2015, 09:47:10 PM »
Has anyone ever seen the movie, "American Beauty?" I thought the way Kevin Spacey's character engineered a nice severance package from his sleazy HR director was pretty smooth. I guess it wasn't ethical, but it sure did feel good to watch. :)

okits

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #40 on: May 01, 2015, 11:12:11 PM »
Has anyone ever seen the movie, "American Beauty?" I thought the way Kevin Spacey's character engineered a nice severance package from his sleazy HR director was pretty smooth. I guess it wasn't ethical, but it sure did feel good to watch. :)

It's been years since I saw that scene, but his look of self-satisfied triumph as he carried his box of stuff out of the office has always stuck with me. Kind of sports hero-esque. And wonderful daydreaming fodder!

Silverado

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2015, 09:51:46 AM »
I can't say I've engineered a layoff (especially successfully).

I have been at two different jobs where it was plausible that a layoff might happen.  One of them: we had multiple layoffs over many years.  (I was there 18 years.)   At both of these jobs I reached a point where I let my manager know the following:
* if there was a layoff, I'd be okay and there would be no hard feelings
* if there was a choice between people, they could put me at the front of the line (in particular in regard to folks that I knew were not in a financial situation to handle it).

I ended up giving notice at both of these jobs... so don't consider this "success."   However, I don't think it was the least bit unethical.  I continued to do the same job I did before.

A co-worker and I have decided that raising your hand is the absolute last thing you want to do, unless they actually ask for volunteers (our company never has).  Our reasoning being that if they think you might be on the way out, it is much cheaper (in terms of severance) just to pigeon hole you and/or make your life hell until you quit.  They actually refer to it as "coaching out marginal performers".  In reality, this is much better for the non-FI employee. When they see it coming, they can get out and look for another job, find one, and move on without the stigma of being laid off.   

That companies are willing to 'coach out' folks is exactly what dividendman is saying. Doing this to an employee is no more sleazy than an employee engineering a layoff. Stop thinking of them differently.


Bearded Man

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2015, 10:26:26 AM »
You don't have to suck at your job; simply dictate the terms of your employment in your favor.  Don't take on assignments you don't want to do, and don't agree to deadlines that are going to put you under stress.  Set your hours to your liking.  When your boss decides that all this makes you "unmanageable", you'll be the first to get let go when it's layoff time.

From what I've seen, this sounds about right.

rocketpj

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2015, 01:38:56 PM »
I worked in a factory type environment immediately after high school for about 1.5 years.  It took me 2 weeks to see that it was a dead end, but a year to save up enough to pay for college (without abasing myself to family or debt). 

Towards the end, when I was getting ready to leave for college (I'd been accepted and would start 2 months later) the oilfield hit a major slowdown (early 90s).  I didn't get cut in the first round of layoffs, but it was clear they were going to have another very soon.  Some of my coworkers had no other options.  Good guys, dedicated family types, some even living frugally and good with money - but almost everyone there had left high school before graduating, some of them 20 years earlier.  A layoff for them would mean a fast track to poverty, while I was planning to leave anyway.  I went to the front office and told them to put me on the list because I was planning to leave anyway.

As it turned out the next round of layoffs didn't come until a few months after I had left, so my gesture was basically empty - though I was not replaced when I left so it might have stretched things out a little longer for some of them.

As for a layoff when I retire, my soon to be next and final job will be self-employment, so not immediately relevant to me.  I'd love a layoff to facilitate getting my business from 70% of current income up to >100%, but I'm not going to start angling for it.

Lexaholik

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2016, 10:24:53 AM »
There's a lot of misinformation about the book in this thread by people who haven't actually read the Financial Samurai book. The book doesn't say you should intentionally slack off to get yourself laid off although I understand why most people would assume that's what it says.

I've actually read the book. A few years ago I was planning on quitting my high paying Biglaw job because I absolutely hated it. I bought the book to see if there were any ideas I hadn't considered. There were tons.

There are actually many ways you can engineer your layoff without being a slacker. For example, if HR/management knows you're looking to leave the company, they can put you on the "layoff list" for the next round of job cuts. Or if you signal to them that you're not committed for the long haul (discussions about possible sabbaticals, interest in spending more time with family, etc.) they will be more willing to work out a separation agreement with you. There are a lot of tactics in the book, a ton of case studies to give you ideas, and details for how to go about having those conversations or how to signal.

None of these methods require you to do low quality work, or shirk from your responsibilities.

But they do require you to take the risk of *looking like* someone who's not committed. That's an extremely small intangible cost when you compare it to the potential payoff. I'm a big fan of taking these types of risks.

My biggest issue with the book was that the strategies take time to implement. When I wanted to quit, I needed something I could do to get myself laid off in a manner of weeks. So in the end, even though I tried some of the tactics in the book they ended up not working for me. If you're also looking to get laid off soon, there's probably very little you can do (other than slack off I guess). If you know you want to leave your job in 6 months to 1 year+ in advance, there is A LOT you can do to get yourself laid off while retaining your reputation. So if this is something you're considering--get the book early.

One final thing I want to add is that people seem hesitant to engineer their layoff because it's unethical. Setting aside practical issues (like its impact on your reputation), is getting yourself terminated "wrong"? Obviously the answer to this question is highly subjective.

An employee and an employer's interests are usually at odds. Whenever you negotiate for a higher salary, you're hurting your employer. Whenever you quit your job to spend time with your family, you're hurting your employer. Whenever your company finds ways to pay you less without hurting performance, they're hurting you. Conflicting interests are a necessary part of the game.

If you feel like you want to "give more" to your employer to gain job security, that's fine. But make no mistake about it--when they can do something to their advantage that hurts you--they are expected to do it. Anyone who's been screwed over by their company already knows this. Ten years ago, I wouldn't have agreed necessarily. But I've seen enough (and been on the wrong end of the stick often enough) that I believe companies will screw over employees for profitability reasons. As an employee I find that abhorrent--but as a shareholder of many successful businesses and companies--I also very much understand and accept it.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2016, 02:54:28 PM by Lexaholik »

JCfire

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2016, 11:25:31 AM »
Is it ethical to pay a working mom $7 an hour to clean hotel rooms while paying a Kim Kardashian millions to complain about how rich she is on TV? My answer is there is no answer because ethics does not enter into sphere of business.

The logic here appears to be "Other entities act in a way that seems unethical to me when involved in X, therefore ethics is inapplicable to X".  I think that's bad logic that has dangerous results.  Are there no ethics in war because others may break the Geneva conventions?  Are there no ethics in politics because others lie and take bribes?  Are there no ethics in romantic relationships because so many people lie and cheat and break vows?  Are there no ethics in eating because companies are willing to produce all kinds of meat products raised in all kinds of ways?  If you take this logic to its conclusion, what "sphere" would have ethics at all?

I think that being an ethical person means adhering to one's ethical code when it leaves one at a pragmatic disadvantage due to others' willingness to violate that code.  In business, that means even if corporations are generally unethical -- even if they are all always unethical -- that does not excuse me from acting ethically. 

Shane

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2016, 11:50:44 AM »
Perhaps looking at it from a different perspective would help.

Companies are looking to maximize profits for their shareholders. Employees are looking to maximize compensation and benefits for themselves and their families. Why do either of those things have to be unethical, rather than just logical and expected? It's only when an employee expects an employer to act like his friend that an employer's actions may seem unethical. If employees accept the fact that employers are not their friends and expect employers to maximize their profits, then employers actions cease to appear unethical.

JCfire

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2016, 11:58:53 AM »
Perhaps looking at it from a different perspective would help.

Companies are looking to maximize profits for their shareholders. Employees are looking to maximize compensation and benefits for themselves and their families. Why do either of those things have to be unethical, rather than just logical and expected? It's only when an employee expects an employer to act like his friend that an employer's actions may seem unethical. If employees accept the fact that employers are not their friends and expect employers to maximize their profits, then employers actions cease to appear unethical.

Sure, and if you just expect politicians in your country to act to maximize their own personal power and benefits for themselves and their families rather than helping the country's best interests, then their actions cease to appear unethical too.  And if you just expect countries fighting wars to do whatever it takes to win, then none of their violations appear unethical either.  Heck lets just do it in one giant swoop -- if all you ever do is expect others to act perfectly selfishly with no ethical constraints, nothing appears unethical!

Chris22

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2016, 12:45:40 PM »
I engineered my own layoff, but calling it "engineering" is giving myself far too much credit.

I was working at failing BigCorp, and they were cutting costs by outsourcing and sending jobs overseas.  At the same time, I was in my last couple semesters for my MBA, and if I left on my own I would have had to pay back a substantial ($15k?) portion of the tuition they had paid out for me.  Anyways, my boss's boss called me in, let me know what they were maybe looking at doing and suggested I shop around a little internally for a new role.  I instead asked if I could stay put and if a package came along, take it.  He said sure.  He also told me to prepay my tuition so that the company would be on the hook for it :)

I worked diligently and eventually, a month or two later, got the word (in July or so) that my job would be eliminated in October.  Found another job, last day was Friday in October, first day at the new one was the following Monday, and I had 2 months of double-dipping on salary. 

Great success.

Lexaholik

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Re: Engineering your layoff instead of quitting when you FIRE?
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2016, 12:58:20 PM »
I engineered my own layoff, but calling it "engineering" is giving myself far too much credit.

I was working at failing BigCorp, and they were cutting costs by outsourcing and sending jobs overseas.  At the same time, I was in my last couple semesters for my MBA, and if I left on my own I would have had to pay back a substantial ($15k?) portion of the tuition they had paid out for me.  Anyways, my boss's boss called me in, let me know what they were maybe looking at doing and suggested I shop around a little internally for a new role.  I instead asked if I could stay put and if a package came along, take it.  He said sure.  He also told me to prepay my tuition so that the company would be on the hook for it :)

I worked diligently and eventually, a month or two later, got the word (in July or so) that my job would be eliminated in October.  Found another job, last day was Friday in October, first day at the new one was the following Monday, and I had 2 months of double-dipping on salary. 

Great success.

This is an awesome story and a perfect example of taking advantage of opportunities as they arise. Personally I think you're giving yourself too little credit--to me this is exactly what engineering your own layoff is.