Author Topic: electric car vs. winter  (Read 8065 times)

pateand

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electric car vs. winter
« on: October 07, 2017, 08:26:15 PM »
"as a form of treasure hunt I still find myself using the many free public stations here in Longmont, to the extent that over 50% of my fuel for the year was free." 

Mr. Money Mustache, I am disappointed by this statement.  In your quest for financial independence using "fuel" that is at a free charging station is not free-taxpayers are paying for it, so you are foisting off some of your true costs.  This seems inconsistent with your values.


Syonyk

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2017, 10:32:48 PM »
Buys brand new electric car. Charges for free.

At some point, when you're making half a million a year on a frugality blog, it's hard to continue to care.

Erica

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2017, 11:26:23 PM »
To assume he is milking the taxpayers is VERY flawed
My FIL bought a 2014 TESLA (ok I may be off a year on the cars age)
He gets free charging at Tesla Charging Stations
Nothing to do with Taxpayers
« Last Edit: October 07, 2017, 11:29:22 PM by Erica »

FINate

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2017, 12:16:29 AM »
What's the problem? He's not stealing...they are intentionally free to entice people to buy EVs. And MMM did. And he's promoting them on his site. If having the taxpayers pay for 'free' charging stations bothers you then take it up with the local government rather than the folks who are simply responding to the incentive.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2017, 12:50:58 AM »
It's like the movies 'Blow' and 'American Made' - MMM is wealthy beyond his imagination and can't help himself but sell more of what people want to buy with what used to be a $400k blog.  It might be a $600k or more/yr blog now.  He just keeps getting richer but never discusses the distribution of phenomenal excess.  The fact that he gets a few pennies of free electricity and subsidies on his 'silly purchases' is just the gravy that I guess offends people. 

undercover

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2017, 02:35:52 AM »
So I guess since we all use public roadways then we should also add the shared cost of maintaining these roads to our bottom. And since some of us go to libraries, we should add back the cost of reading books as well.

Why does it matter that he's using free public chargers? Plenty of businesses provide these as well, not just local governments. We're talking $17.5 too (3500/2/$1) which is absolutely insignificant, especially when you consider that 99% of people don't own electric cars. And as far as free charging being a worthwhile tax-subsidized service, I can think of far worse uses of tax dollars. So even if you want to add back the true cost to his tab, he spent just $35 in "gas" over the past year. That's probably 1/3rd of what of what most people spend a month. How is that inconsistent with his values?

skip207

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2017, 03:06:45 AM »
UM I thought super charging was an option.  Certainly was in the UK when I was looking at an S?

We have a Model 3 on order for 2019 (ish!).  I think super charging is now included although we don't have many charging points here.

alsoknownasDean

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2017, 04:15:09 AM »
In your quest for financial independence using "fuel" that is at a free charging station is not free-taxpayers are paying for it, so you are foisting off some of your true costs.  This seems inconsistent with your values.

I'm sure that by way of making $400K per year from the blog, he's paying plenty in tax. Why not use the available public facilities for which you've already paid?

EarthSurfer

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2017, 05:50:35 AM »
I can't understand the implied morality failure in the OP's thinking. The disappointment is unwarranted.

Federal and state governments have make a CHOICE to heavily subsidize EVs by providing tax incentives and some free public charging stations.

When the government subsidies, they want more of the activity, not less. I would say failure to capitalize on that incentive when it benefits you is a civil moral failure on your own part. (Not necessarily my political preference, but that is the way our current system works.)


slappy

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2017, 06:18:35 AM »
Well I’m disappointed too.


I thought this post was going to be a practical discussion about driving an electric car during the winter. I saw on another post that they have very low clearance, which could be an issue for me, since I live in the Northeast. My work provides free charging stations, so I’m very interested in the idea, but I need to be able to make it up my road in the winter time.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2017, 06:52:07 AM »
My wife drives a plug-in hybrid and we charge from public charging stations whenever we can. Yes, the public paid for these spaces, but we repay their investment by emitting less pollution into the air. I hope more people will go electric because then there will be fewer ozone days in the summertime and everyone will literally breathe easier. Some benefits of public investment can't be measured in dollars. (Unless you are talking about reduced health expenditures for people.)

Joeko

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2017, 08:58:44 AM »
I think it is awesome MMM bought and is prompting electric cars.  Society needs to act now to slow down global warming...I also have no issues with the Gov’t subsidizing alternative fuels.  Better that the subsidies to the corn industry which contributes to the obesity epidemic.

ender

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2017, 09:22:14 AM »
"as a form of treasure hunt I still find myself using the many free public stations here in Longmont, to the extent that over 50% of my fuel for the year was free." 

Mr. Money Mustache, I am disappointed by this statement.  In your quest for financial independence using "fuel" that is at a free charging station is not free-taxpayers are paying for it, so you are foisting off some of your true costs.  This seems inconsistent with your values.

ehhhhh

He also puts a lot of his expenses into the business expense category and "hides" them that way, too.


TomTX

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2017, 09:40:06 AM »
It's like the movies 'Blow' and 'American Made' - MMM is wealthy beyond his imagination and can't help himself but sell more of what people want to buy with what used to be a $400k blog.  It might be a $600k or more/yr blog now.  He just keeps getting richer but never discusses the distribution of phenomenal excess.  The fact that he gets a few pennies of free electricity and subsidies on his 'silly purchases' is just the gravy that I guess offends people.

Apparently you missed the charitable giving post.

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2017, 10:54:11 AM »
...blah blah blah...

Apparently you missed the charitable giving post.

Nope, just waiting for the next one.  Smart people in a position to change the world through their wealth and connections are inspiring!  Maybe something like a mini Gates Foundation...
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 11:40:24 AM by EscapeVelocity2020 »

nereo

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2017, 11:44:29 AM »
Well I’m disappointed too.


I thought this post was going to be a practical discussion about driving an electric car during the winter. I saw on another post that they have very low clearance, which could be an issue for me, since I live in the Northeast. My work provides free charging stations, so I’m very interested in the idea, but I need to be able to make it up my road in the winter time.
yeah, color me dissapointed too.  Nice bit of trolling by a newly registered user, though.

FWIW I'm not dissapointed to see someone utilize publically available resources.  Kinda seems to be a central focus of this whole forum, like enjoying public parks, advocating for cycling paths and seeking out local, community based no-charge entertainment.   Big thumbs up!

gaja

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2017, 11:55:39 AM »
So I guess since we all use public roadways then we should also add the shared cost of maintaining these roads to our bottom. And since some of us go to libraries, we should add back the cost of reading books as well.

Why does it matter that he's using free public chargers? Plenty of businesses provide these as well, not just local governments. We're talking $17.5 too (3500/2/$1) which is absolutely insignificant, especially when you consider that 99% of people don't own electric cars. And as far as free charging being a worthwhile tax-subsidized service, I can think of far worse uses of tax dollars. So even if you want to add back the true cost to his tab, he spent just $35 in "gas" over the past year. That's probably 1/3rd of what of what most people spend a month. How is that inconsistent with his values?
The bolded part needs to be repeated. For people with fossil fuelled cars, fuel is a substantial expense. That is not the case of those who drive EVs. The electric engine is much more efficient, so you can drive much longer for each kWh of fuel. Recalculated in mpg, my electric van has a mpg of around 120. In addition, electricity is usually much cheaper than petrol/diesel.

MMM describes driving 3500 miles, or 5600 km. The leaf is more energy efficient than my eNV200, but if I use my mpg number his fuel consumption would be something like 29 gallons, 110 liters, or ~1100 kWh. Half of that he has charged at home, half at public chargers. I don't know how many of those were public as in paid for by tax money, and how many were publicly available but paid for by businesses who wanted to attract more customers. I also don't know what the local electricity prices are like. But in my everyday life, >80 % of the public chargers I use at paid for by private businesses (and I do leave enough money in their shops to make it worth while for them). Electricity in my region is less than 10 cents/kwh. So in total, if MMMs numbers are similar to mine, he gets $11 of fuel paid for by tax payers.

Now, for the other side of the budget:
Fossil fuelled cars lead to pollution. Even if we disregard the costs of climate change, local pollution from traffic causes or worsens plenty of health issues (asthma, dementia, etc). Even with the strange health system in the US, sick people cost the tax payers money: medicare/medicaid, emergencies, disability payments, etc. But the biggest expense of all is people getting to sick to work and pay taxes. The fewer people in the work force, the more each of us must contribute. In Norway, we have calculated that every person who is too sick to work, costs the society $1 million. It might sound harsh to put a number on someone. But that number is one of the main reasons we spend so much on public health, including electric cars, LNG for shipping, alternatives to oil pans in private homes, etc. Donating $11 in free electricity to every EV driver makes economic sense.

In some regions, we are now seeing >50% EV sales in some regions. In these areas, the public sector has started charging money at their charging stations, typically a little bit more than the electricity price to encourage people to charge at home.

gaja

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2017, 12:07:06 PM »
Well I’m disappointed too.


I thought this post was going to be a practical discussion about driving an electric car during the winter. I saw on another post that they have very low clearance, which could be an issue for me, since I live in the Northeast. My work provides free charging stations, so I’m very interested in the idea, but I need to be able to make it up my road in the winter time.
yeah, color me dissapointed too.  Nice bit of trolling by a newly registered user, though.

I've driven EVs in Norway since 2013. We have winters. I'm happy to answer any questions you might have.

Low clearance: never been a problem with my leaf or eNV200. We hate shovelling snow, and usually leave the driveway alone until it has at least 20-30 cm of snow. I think it might be an issue if you drive a Tesla S and insist on keeping it very low, but you can regulate the clearance inside the car, so I don't know why you would do that. The triplets (iMiev, iON, Citroen C-Zero) are quite small, and the tires look very narrow. I haven't tried it in deep snow, but that might be an issue. On the other side, the home care nurses in Trondheim were quite happy with their iMievs, and they do have to handle a lot of snow and sleet. The Tesla roadster might have issues with clearance in deep snow.

nereo

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2017, 12:10:07 PM »
Well I’m disappointed too.


I thought this post was going to be a practical discussion about driving an electric car during the winter. I saw on another post that they have very low clearance, which could be an issue for me, since I live in the Northeast. My work provides free charging stations, so I’m very interested in the idea, but I need to be able to make it up my road in the winter time.
yeah, color me dissapointed too.  Nice bit of trolling by a newly registered user, though.

I've driven EVs in Norway since 2013. We have winters. I'm happy to answer any questions you might have.
The biggest question I have re: EVs in cold weather is how significantly battery life is effected when its, say, -10 to -20ºC outside.  Also, does it charge more slowly when its very cold outside vs. when it is summer and hot out?

gaja

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2017, 12:25:18 PM »
Well I’m disappointed too.


I thought this post was going to be a practical discussion about driving an electric car during the winter. I saw on another post that they have very low clearance, which could be an issue for me, since I live in the Northeast. My work provides free charging stations, so I’m very interested in the idea, but I need to be able to make it up my road in the winter time.
yeah, color me dissapointed too.  Nice bit of trolling by a newly registered user, though.

I've driven EVs in Norway since 2013. We have winters. I'm happy to answer any questions you might have.
The biggest question I have re: EVs in cold weather is how significantly battery life is effected when its, say, -10 to -20ºC outside.  Also, does it charge more slowly when its very cold outside vs. when it is summer and hot out?

The answers here depend on your level of mustachianism. Do you need +20 in the coupe year round, or are you ok with driving with a hat, mittens and a warm jacket? The seat heater and steering wheel heater don't use a lot of energy, so at least down to -10, I stick with those, except for some blasts of heat and ac to get rid of the condensation. Heat at full blast in an old leaf takes the same amount of energy as driving, so your range gets cut in half. The eGolf and several of the newer cars have heat pumps, so they are much more efficient. Also, EV drivers usually start driving with a warm car, that has been heated while plugged in.

If the battery is cold, it charges slower. I don't think it gets annoying until you are at -15 or lower. Even then, it is the heat of the battery, not the air, that decides the charging speed. So if you have been driving and then stop for a charge, it will charge faster than if you start charging after leaving it standing for a while. My personal record is 45 minutes at a speed charger that would normally take me 15-20. But that was in -27 with a cold car straight off a ferry. I only really notice it while speed charging, trickle charging takes place while I'm doing other stuff, so I don't really notice how long that takes.

Long term battery life is not effected by the cold.

nereo

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2017, 12:39:20 PM »
thanks gaja.  This is going to sound really dumb in retrospect, but until now it never occurred to me that running the heat would (of course) lessen your mileage.  I'm just used to combustion engines where the heat is a byproduct and there's virtually no penalty for running your heat wide-open (save the very small energy use from the electric fan - which uses less energy than the headlights.

gaja

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2017, 12:53:35 PM »
A different winter issue that hasn't got enough attention, is what happens when you get below -40. That is the temperature where it can get tricky starting fossil fuelled engines. Electric cars have no such issues. Due to extreme distances and few charging stations, there are not a lot of EVs at 70 deg northern latitude, but the few I've talked to are very happy with their cars.

nereo

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2017, 12:59:31 PM »
A different winter issue that hasn't got enough attention, is what happens when you get below -40. That is the temperature where it can get tricky starting fossil fuelled engines. Electric cars have no such issues. Due to extreme distances and few charging stations, there are not a lot of EVs at 70 deg northern latitude, but the few I've talked to are very happy with their cars.
Yeah, most people use block heaters around here (Canada).  As I understand it, it's more about keeping the oil viscous and the starter-battery warm enough to crank out enough amperage to start the engine.  It's nice to know that, mileage-reductions aside, EVs will start in bone-cold weather.
...and that reminds me, I *must* replace my car battery soon; it's too old to crank my engine once it gets really cold, and 'winter is coming' to Canada.

TomTX

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2017, 01:33:45 PM »
...blah blah blah...

Apparently you missed the charitable giving post.

Nope, just waiting for the next one.  Smart people in a position to change the world through their wealth and connections are inspiring!  Maybe something like a mini Gates Foundation...

You mean change something like.... revitalizing their downtown and starting a low-cost entrepreneurial incubator to help kick-start others on their road to financial independence and badassity?

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/08/02/introducing-the-mmm-world-headquarters-building/ 

EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2017, 02:12:49 PM »
...blah blah blah...

Apparently you missed the charitable giving post.

Nope, just waiting for the next one.  Smart people in a position to change the world through their wealth and connections are inspiring!  Maybe something like a mini Gates Foundation...

You mean change something like.... revitalizing their downtown and starting a low-cost entrepreneurial incubator to help kick-start others on their road to financial independence and badassity?

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/08/02/introducing-the-mmm-world-headquarters-building/

I got the impression he was using that as part of his for profit business (and also scratch his entrepreneurial and renovation itch).  He talked about how he could flip the building for profit but also charge folks rental fees...  I dunno, certainly didn't have a philanthropic feel to me, but maybe he is building up to some grand philanthropic gesture.  I'll leave it at that since we're going way off topic...

jalich

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #25 on: October 08, 2017, 04:40:34 PM »
"as a form of treasure hunt I still find myself using the many free public stations here in Longmont, to the extent that over 50% of my fuel for the year was free." 

Mr. Money Mustache, I am disappointed by this statement.  In your quest for financial independence using "fuel" that is at a free charging station is not free-taxpayers are paying for it, so you are foisting off some of your true costs.  This seems inconsistent with your values.

Public charging stations are mostly "public" as in available for general use, not "Public" as in paid for by taxpayer dollars. Drugstores, Walmarts, Nissan dealers, and their like are paying for the majority of public charging stations to encourage people to shop there. A small number are taxpayer funded at existing public buildings. Also, like others have said, where they are taxpayer funded the intent is to encourage adoption, as a dramatically less polluting means of transportation benefits everyone.


You can check your local area for nearby stations and see who pays for them. In my zip code, it's 100% non-taxpayer funded out of 54 stations.
https://na.chargepoint.com/charge_point


Johnez

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #26 on: October 08, 2017, 06:31:32 PM »
"as a form of treasure hunt I still find myself using the many free public stations here in Longmont, to the extent that over 50% of my fuel for the year was free." 

Mr. Money Mustache, I am disappointed by this statement.  In your quest for financial independence using "fuel" that is at a free charging station is not free-taxpayers are paying for it, so you are foisting off some of your true costs.  This seems inconsistent with your values.

Triple M is a taxpayer, right?  All those other tax payers paying for these stations have the choice to also use the stations, right?  What point are you trying to make here? 

nereo

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #27 on: October 08, 2017, 06:52:32 PM »
"as a form of treasure hunt I still find myself using the many free public stations here in Longmont, to the extent that over 50% of my fuel for the year was free." 

Mr. Money Mustache, I am disappointed by this statement.  In your quest for financial independence using "fuel" that is at a free charging station is not free-taxpayers are paying for it, so you are foisting off some of your true costs.  This seems inconsistent with your values.

Triple M is a taxpayer, right?  All those other tax payers paying for these stations have the choice to also use the stations, right?  What point are you trying to make here?

Nothing.  The OP registered, started a flame thread and ducked out.  There's nothing here, and as several have pointed out there seems to be nothing amiss about utilizing publicly available infrastructure for its intended purpose.

TomTX

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2017, 07:50:51 PM »
"as a form of treasure hunt I still find myself using the many free public stations here in Longmont, to the extent that over 50% of my fuel for the year was free." 

Mr. Money Mustache, I am disappointed by this statement.  In your quest for financial independence using "fuel" that is at a free charging station is not free-taxpayers are paying for it, so you are foisting off some of your true costs.  This seems inconsistent with your values.

Triple M is a taxpayer, right?  All those other tax payers paying for these stations have the choice to also use the stations, right?  What point are you trying to make here?

Gosh, he might also go to a public park and drink from the taxpayer-funded water fountain instead of buying a bottled water! Horrors!

Louis XIV

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2017, 08:48:51 PM »
I don't get this argument at all.. When your net worth is greater than $X, do you suddenly have to start living in some sort of libertarian dream/horror land where simultaneously you should only use resources you directly pay for, but should also have to pay tax?

Shame on MMM for not accounting for the true cost of his electric car usage, building and maintaining roads costs billions of dollars per year. What a selfish prick, he should be building his own road with his blog proceeds and properly accounting for the cost. He's canadian you know, they are a bit funny if you get my drift.. The weirdo would probably build it out of recycled milk bottles and hemp.

You know I also heard he often doesn't lock up his bike (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/12/08/lessons-learned-from-having-my-bike-stolen/) what a scumbag, taking advantage of the safety provided thanks to taxpayer funded police and a social safety net. With a net worth like his, it is incredibly offensive that he doesn't pay impoverished riff raff to act as his own private militia to defend his chattel and family. MMM does not properly account for his family's expenditure, mooching off the taxpayer like that.

You know, I heard he even had the gall to briefly send his son to a PUBLIC school? What sort of landed gentry abuses the system like that? He should have provided his son with the finest private tutors directly paid for, how dare he use resources that his tax dollars contribute to.

GetItRight

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2017, 04:11:43 PM »
I consider any minor benefits I receive from government a slight tax refund. So for MMM's coal fired car (Seems strange.I haven't read the blog in a while, guess I should), each recharge of the batteries on the government's tab is a small tax refund. I would account for such in Mint. I'm sure the government steals a lot more from him than he receives from them.

I believe in starve the beast (take all the welfare they will give you), but vocally protest all welfare as well. It would only be inconsistent if one protested welfare programs in general but promoted keeping the ones that they directly benefit from. It's not stealing from the thief if the thief takes your whole wallet but gives you a few bucks back to catch a bus home.

nereo

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #31 on: October 09, 2017, 06:28:19 PM »
I consider any minor benefits I receive from government a slight tax refund. So for MMM's coal fired car (Seems strange.I haven't read the blog in a while, guess I should), each recharge of the batteries on the government's tab is a small tax refund. I would account for such in Mint. I'm sure the government steals a lot more from him than he receives from them.

I believe in starve the beast (take all the welfare they will give you), but vocally protest all welfare as well. It would only be inconsistent if one protested welfare programs in general but promoted keeping the ones that they directly benefit from. It's not stealing from the thief if the thief takes your whole wallet but gives you a few bucks back to catch a bus home.
...coal fired car? You realize he lives in Longmont, Colorado, right?  And no, taxation is not theft.  move along....

mm1970

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #32 on: October 09, 2017, 06:32:12 PM »
In your quest for financial independence using "fuel" that is at a free charging station is not free-taxpayers are paying for it, so you are foisting off some of your true costs.  This seems inconsistent with your values.

I'm sure that by way of making $400K per year from the blog, he's paying plenty in tax. Why not use the available public facilities for which you've already paid?

My thought exactly.

There were a few summers where my kid was in a "free" summer program run by the city, with free lunch. Someone online made a comment about how the lunch wasn't free.

Dude, the total cost for my kid's lunch for those summers is approximately $200.  Mostly covered by grants, but maybe some by local taxes.  At my tax rate?  Sorry, not gonna feel guilty at all.

And this year our entire school gets free lunch all year!!  I'm taking the taxpayers for $990!

GetItRight

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #33 on: October 09, 2017, 07:32:42 PM »
...coal fired car? You realize he lives in Longmont, Colorado, right?

Coal is the primary source of electricity in Colorado.

Though coal as a percent of total generation is down from 2011: http://coloradogeologicalsurvey.org/energy-resources/electricity/

I think it's safe to say electric cars in Colorado are primarily coal fired, which is fine, but personally I'd prefer steam over electric if I was to own and operate a coal fired vehicle. Different strokes for different folks.

And no, taxation is not theft.  move along....

Make your case. Taxation is pretty clearly theft, by definition. If there is no consent, then it is theft.

Theft: A criminal act in which property belonging to another is taken without that person's consent.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/theft

If you assert that taxation is not theft, then surely you would agree that paying the mob protection money is also not theft.

FireLane

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #34 on: October 09, 2017, 08:12:37 PM »
I don't get this argument at all.. When your net worth is greater than $X, do you suddenly have to start living in some sort of libertarian dream/horror land where simultaneously you should only use resources you directly pay for, but should also have to pay tax?

Shame on MMM for not accounting for the true cost of his electric car usage, building and maintaining roads costs billions of dollars per year. What a selfish prick, he should be building his own road with his blog proceeds and properly accounting for the cost. He's canadian you know, they are a bit funny if you get my drift.. The weirdo would probably build it out of recycled milk bottles and hemp.

You know I also heard he often doesn't lock up his bike (http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2015/12/08/lessons-learned-from-having-my-bike-stolen/) what a scumbag, taking advantage of the safety provided thanks to taxpayer funded police and a social safety net. With a net worth like his, it is incredibly offensive that he doesn't pay impoverished riff raff to act as his own private militia to defend his chattel and family. MMM does not properly account for his family's expenditure, mooching off the taxpayer like that.

You know, I heard he even had the gall to briefly send his son to a PUBLIC school? What sort of landed gentry abuses the system like that? He should have provided his son with the finest private tutors directly paid for, how dare he use resources that his tax dollars contribute to.

I laughed way too hard at this.

FINate

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #35 on: October 09, 2017, 10:22:33 PM »
...coal fired car? You realize he lives in Longmont, Colorado, right?

Coal is the primary source of electricity in Colorado.

Though coal as a percent of total generation is down from 2011: http://coloradogeologicalsurvey.org/energy-resources/electricity/

I think it's safe to say electric cars in Colorado are primarily coal fired, which is fine, but personally I'd prefer steam over electric if I was to own and operate a coal fired vehicle. Different strokes for different folks.

And no, taxation is not theft.  move along....

Make your case. Taxation is pretty clearly theft, by definition. If there is no consent, then it is theft.

Theft: A criminal act in which property belonging to another is taken without that person's consent.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/theft

If you assert that taxation is not theft, then surely you would agree that paying the mob protection money is also not theft.

First, coal: MMM covered this in his post:

Quote
And all of this is aside from the biggest benefit, which is the hidden one that you’re not burning fossil fuels. The US power grid is down to 30% coal and getting cleaner every day, and you can personally improve that number simply by buying renewable power from your local provider as I do here in Longmont.

So his car is not coal powered, even if Longmont itself is.

Second, taxation is not theft (per your definition) because it's not a "criminal act". In fact, it's one of the powers granted to government in the US Constitution's Taxing and Spending clause.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 10:24:35 PM by FINate »

GetItRight

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2017, 09:09:00 AM »
First, coal: MMM covered this in his post:
Quote
And all of this is aside from the biggest benefit, which is the hidden one that you’re not burning fossil fuels. The US power grid is down to 30% coal and getting cleaner every day, and you can personally improve that number simply by buying renewable power from your local provider as I do here in Longmont.

So his car is not coal powered, even if Longmont itself is.

Not quite, he did not include specific information about Colorado but rather only a 30% coal for the nation as a whole statistic. I assume that's correct, but it is misleading when Colorado uses coal for twice the percentage of their total power generation. He also links to the local electric company which allows customers to purchase renewable energy (hydro and wind are mentioned). For $.0312/mo one can allegedly purchase only renewable energy.

I am dubious of how this claim of 100% renewable is measured or enforced. What if there is a drought and hydro generation is down to conserve water for drinking and other uses? What if the wind is not blowing very often or fast? Are some sort of smart electric meter used where power is cut off to buildings that sign up for 100% renewable at a higher rate? Is any usage over the amount of renewable generated billed at the lower rate? How is it decided who gets cut off or the lower rate first? I was unable to find anything online about how many kWh of electric are generated vs how many kWh are paid for at the higher renewable rate. I hope that such information is provided on the bill or at least in some sort of annual or periodic report, maybe someone else can dig up some information.

I think it's safe to say there's a best effort to ensure his car is not coal powered, but no guarantee. I also suspect it's safe to say the vast majority of electric cars in use in this country are coal powered.

Second, taxation is not theft (per your definition) because it's not a "criminal act". In fact, it's one of the powers granted to government in the US Constitution's Taxing and Spending clause.

You can say taxation is not theft all you want, but that doesn't make it so. If there is not consent, it is theft. A law making theft legal, does not change the fact that it is theft. Theft is a violation of one's property rights. A crime must involve a victim. If there is consent, an action cannot be a crime (i.e. you cannot steal an item if the owner gave it to you). If there is no consent during a transfer of property, then it is a crime as there is a victim.

Quote
the imposition of a federal income tax is more than just taking from those who work and earn and giving to those who don’t. And it is more than just a spigot to fill the federal trough. At its base, it is a terrifying presumption. It presumes that we don’t really own our property. It accepts the Marxist notion that the state owns all the property and the state permits us to keep and use whatever it needs us to have so we won’t riot in the streets. And then it steals and uses whatever it can politically get away with. Do you believe this?

There are only three ways to acquire wealth in a free society. The inheritance model occurs when someone gives you wealth. The economic model occurs when you trade a skill, a talent, an asset, knowledge, sweat, energy or creativity to a willing buyer. And the mafia model occurs when a guy with a gun says: “Give me your money or else.”

Which model does the government use? Why do we put up with this?
https://mises.org/blog/taxation-theft

Would you agree that 100% taxation is not theft? Would you agree that 100% taxation is not a crime?

GuitarStv

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2017, 09:28:18 AM »
Second, taxation is not theft (per your definition) because it's not a "criminal act". In fact, it's one of the powers granted to government in the US Constitution's Taxing and Spending clause.

You can say taxation is not theft all you want, but that doesn't make it so. If there is not consent, it is theft. A law making theft legal, does not change the fact that it is theft. Theft is a violation of one's property rights. A crime must involve a victim. If there is consent, an action cannot be a crime (i.e. you cannot steal an item if the owner gave it to you). If there is no consent during a transfer of property, then it is a crime as there is a victim.

This argument is pretty silly.  You personally benefit tremendously from taxes by taking free roads, police services, fire services, national defense, etc.  You consent to pay taxes by choosing to live in your country of residence (and thereby choosing to have all the benefits of these common goods).
- You're free to exit the country if you find the terms of the social contract untenable.
- You're free to run for public office and change the system.
- You're free to change your income and purchasing levels to alter the amount of tax you pay.

Taxes are completely consensual in the United States.

FINate

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2017, 10:33:04 AM »
First, coal: MMM covered this in his post:
Quote
And all of this is aside from the biggest benefit, which is the hidden one that you’re not burning fossil fuels. The US power grid is down to 30% coal and getting cleaner every day, and you can personally improve that number simply by buying renewable power from your local provider as I do here in Longmont.

So his car is not coal powered, even if Longmont itself is.

Not quite, he did not include specific information about Colorado but rather only a 30% coal for the nation as a whole statistic. I assume that's correct, but it is misleading when Colorado uses coal for twice the percentage of their total power generation. He also links to the local electric company which allows customers to purchase renewable energy (hydro and wind are mentioned). For $.0312/mo one can allegedly purchase only renewable energy.

I am dubious of how this claim of 100% renewable is measured or enforced. What if there is a drought and hydro generation is down to conserve water for drinking and other uses? What if the wind is not blowing very often or fast? Are some sort of smart electric meter used where power is cut off to buildings that sign up for 100% renewable at a higher rate? Is any usage over the amount of renewable generated billed at the lower rate? How is it decided who gets cut off or the lower rate first? I was unable to find anything online about how many kWh of electric are generated vs how many kWh are paid for at the higher renewable rate. I hope that such information is provided on the bill or at least in some sort of annual or periodic report, maybe someone else can dig up some information.

I think it's safe to say there's a best effort to ensure his car is not coal powered, but no guarantee. I also suspect it's safe to say the vast majority of electric cars in use in this country are coal powered.

This thread is specifically about Pete's electric car, not electric cars in general. The fact is, he's buying renewable energy from his utility. And this is something any EV owner can do. You theorize, based on simplistic hypothetical situations, that the utility cannot supply what it's selling without any supporting evidence whatsoever. Wind and hydro are not as simple as "it's not windy in Longmont" or "we are in drought" better stoke the coal power plant. Utilities can (and do) purchase renewable power from other areas where the wind is blowing or that are not in drought.

Also, there is the issue of efficiency. ICEs are fairly inefficient (~20%) because they must handle different driving conditions (acceleration from stop, cruising at highway speeds, in town driving, etc.). Whereas a power plant only generates power at scale on systems designed for constant and efficient generation. Coal plants are 40-50% efficient, and very little efficiency is lost over transmission. So to the extent that coal is still used for power generation, society is still better off compared to running a bunch of little and inefficient ICEs. As an added benefit, as utilities expand renewable energy sources (say they add a solar plant), then all EV vehicles automatically benefit from this upgrade.

Second, taxation is not theft (per your definition) because it's not a "criminal act". In fact, it's one of the powers granted to government in the US Constitution's Taxing and Spending clause.

You can say taxation is not theft all you want, but that doesn't make it so. If there is not consent, it is theft. A law making theft legal, does not change the fact that it is theft. Theft is a violation of one's property rights. A crime must involve a victim. If there is consent, an action cannot be a crime (i.e. you cannot steal an item if the owner gave it to you). If there is no consent during a transfer of property, then it is a crime as there is a victim.

Quote
the imposition of a federal income tax is more than just taking from those who work and earn and giving to those who don’t. And it is more than just a spigot to fill the federal trough. At its base, it is a terrifying presumption. It presumes that we don’t really own our property. It accepts the Marxist notion that the state owns all the property and the state permits us to keep and use whatever it needs us to have so we won’t riot in the streets. And then it steals and uses whatever it can politically get away with. Do you believe this?

There are only three ways to acquire wealth in a free society. The inheritance model occurs when someone gives you wealth. The economic model occurs when you trade a skill, a talent, an asset, knowledge, sweat, energy or creativity to a willing buyer. And the mafia model occurs when a guy with a gun says: “Give me your money or else.”

Which model does the government use? Why do we put up with this?
https://mises.org/blog/taxation-theft

Would you agree that 100% taxation is not theft? Would you agree that 100% taxation is not a crime?

LOL, and you can say taxation is theft all you want but that doesn't make it so. What kind of argument is that? The "taxation is theft" argument doesn't hold water because the government cannot single out individuals for taxation, whereas a thief takes from individuals rather than society collectively. This is why taxes which are too narrowly tailored do not hold up in the courts.

Again, per your definition, theft is a criminal act. That we have a legal framework allowing for taxation for the public good means, by definition, it's not a criminal act. Whereas failing to pay your taxes is a criminal act.

When I was younger I was much more conservative and very much of the mindset that all taxes are bad. Then I spent some time working in countries where tax evasion is rife and it shows in the lack of infrastructure. My view on taxes and government changed quite a bit as a result. I don't like having to worry about the safety of water, even when staying in a luxury resort. Open sewers and stagnant water creating breeding grounds for disease vectors is not a pleasant thing to deal with on a day to day basis. Having to hire armed guards to protect hotels and office buildings along with actual fortress walls to keep those inside safe is rather unpleasant, a feeling of being imprisoned.       

You are not an island unto yourself. You do not have total autonomy and our system of government was never intended as such. Our government can make you fight in wars, they can tax you, they can make you sell your property, and so on. There is a long legal precedent for this, going all the way to the SCOTUS. If you really believe strongly otherwise then by all means, make a public protest of not paying your taxes and accept the consequences as part of your principled protest. Don't just talk a big talk on anonymous internet forums.

GuitarStv

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2017, 10:46:59 AM »
If you really believe strongly otherwise then by all means, make a public protest of not paying your taxes and accept the consequences as part of your principled protest.

FWIW - You would be in good company on this one.  Thoreau spent time in jail for this very reason (although his aunt bailed him out and paid his back taxes).

inline five

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2017, 12:18:05 PM »
You guys are spending your lives arguing over minutia that has little implication to the idea behind the original blog post...

Look at the forest not the trees

FireLane

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2017, 05:55:09 PM »
You can say taxation is not theft all you want, but that doesn't make it so. If there is not consent, it is theft. A law making theft legal, does not change the fact that it is theft. Theft is a violation of one's property rights. A crime must involve a victim. If there is consent, an action cannot be a crime (i.e. you cannot steal an item if the owner gave it to you). If there is no consent during a transfer of property, then it is a crime as there is a victim.

If you're going to insist on this silly argument, here's an analogy.

Let's say you're a small business owner who runs a store in a mall. You pay monthly rent to the property company that owns the mall, and in exchange you get utilities like electricity and heat, protection for your business in the form of security guards, and exposure to the large number of people who come to shop at the mall, some of whom will walk by your store and decide to come in and buy something.

Now let's say you have a change of heart and announce to your landlord, "I've decided I no longer want to pay rent for this space. You have no right to charge me anymore, because I've withdrawn my consent. I'm just going to stay here and keep running my business, whether you like it or not. If you try to evict me, you're victimizing me by taking my property away without my consent, which is theft!"

Would you agree with that shopkeeper's argument? Why or why not?

GetItRight

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2017, 06:37:31 PM »
Sorry I can't respond to all immediately, so I'll take the low hanging fruit...

FireLane, you are leaving out the first at the beginning where the shopkeeper agreed to contractual terms spelled out in a contract he signed for lease of the space. If the shopkeeper wishes to break contract there are surely terms in the contract to address how that is done. The contractual terms which were consented to by both parties must be followed. What you describe is either early termination of the lease, non-renewal of the lease, or breach of contract, which is to be handled as described in the contract.

No theft has occurred againt the shopkeeper as there is consent by both parties and they are equal at all times. There is no violence, force, or coercion in this scenario. The shopkeeper did not enter contract or pay under duress. If the shopkeeper does not vacate the mall owner's property as outlined in the contract the shopkeeper is initiating force against the mall owner and is committing theft as he does not have grounds to use the property under a contract he consented to, he no longer has the consent of the owner to use that property.

This is not at all analogous to a compulsory tax simply for existing and sustaining oneself peacefully, such as the income tax. To assert that would require some impressive mental gymnastics. There is no contract, and no consent. Income tax is paid by non-consenting individuals under duress as there is the threat of violence if they do not pay. The mob protection money analogy is applicable in this scenario. There is either theft in both or no theft in both.

FireLane

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2017, 07:40:01 PM »
If the shopkeeper does not vacate the mall owner's property as outlined in the contract the shopkeeper is initiating force against the mall owner and is committing theft as he does not have grounds to use the property under a contract he consented to, he no longer has the consent of the owner to use that property.

And yet, you don't believe there always has to be a contract, do you? If I, a stranger, walked into your house and started eating the food out of your refrigerator, would you accept it if I said that I didn't sign any contract with you and therefore I have no obligation to respect your property rights?

Quote
This is not at all analogous to a compulsory tax simply for existing...

There is no "tax for existing" in this country. If you don't wish to pay U.S. taxes, you have a simple solution: renounce your citizenship and move.

What you're not free to do, as in my shopkeeper analogy, is to declare that you're going to stay here and take advantage of all the services that the government provides (national defense, civil law, public infrastructure, to name a few) without paying your fair share to support those services. That's what taxes are for: a payment for services rendered.

GetItRight

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2017, 08:32:59 PM »
If the shopkeeper does not vacate the mall owner's property as outlined in the contract the shopkeeper is initiating force against the mall owner and is committing theft as he does not have grounds to use the property under a contract he consented to, he no longer has the consent of the owner to use that property.

And yet, you don't believe there always has to be a contract, do you? If I, a stranger, walked into your house and started eating the food out of your refrigerator, would you accept it if I said that I didn't sign any contract with you and therefore I have no obligation to respect your property rights?

I don't think you understand what property rights are. I'm tired, so I'll try to explain this briefly. Every individual had the right to his own property, first and foremost his own body, and the fruits of his labor (using said body). If you take from another, without that person's consent, that is theft. Everyone has the right to their property, including food acquired with the fruits of their labor.

In this scenario you have initiated force (violence, aggression) against me, entered my home without my consent and taken my property (food, in this case) without my consent. If I am not home, you are burgling me. If I am home, you will have to take my food by force (violence, aggression) as I will defend my property. Either way, you have initiated aggression against me. If you ask nicely for food, I will not let you leave hungry as I am a civil and charitable person and don't wish for anyone to starve. Surely someone willing to use force to acquire food must be desperate and out of options.

Quote
This is not at all analogous to a compulsory tax simply for existing...

There is no "tax for existing" in this country. If you don't wish to pay U.S. taxes, you have a simple solution: renounce your citizenship and move.

I was hoping to avoid this one today, sorry but I only have so much time and energy. This has been done to death. Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5wXIHXXNcU

What you're not free to do, as in my shopkeeper analogy, is to declare that you're going to stay here and take advantage of all the services that the government provides (national defense, civil law, public infrastructure, to name a few) without paying your fair share to support those services. That's what taxes are for: a payment for services rendered.

Again, I don't have it in me tonight for a lengthy and detailed response to this.  It has been done to death, a world of information is at your fingertips. These "services" are things forced upon an individual. An individual is forced to pay for these things under duress with the threat of violence. This is exactly the same as paying the mob protection money. If you don't like paying the mob protection money for services rendered, you're not free to stay and take advantage of those services without paying your fair share.

alsoknownasDean

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2017, 09:04:41 PM »
What does this have to do with where MMM charges his car?

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Radagast

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2017, 10:35:12 PM »
There is no contract, and no consent.
There is a contract. It is the Constitution and the amendments thereto, and by living in the USA you consent to it. I actually am having a hard time understanding how that could not be obvious. Anyhoo end of OT discussion from me.

shuffler

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2017, 01:21:24 AM »
You can say taxation is not theft all you want, but that doesn't make it so.
Oh for fuck's sake.  Take it elsewhere.

nereo

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2017, 04:04:05 AM »
You can say taxation is not theft all you want, but that doesn't make it so.
Oh for fuck's sake.  Take it elsewhere.

Agreed. This is completely off topic. The "taxation is theft" nonsense has been hammered to death on previous threads. 
Please stop.

FrugalToque

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Re: electric car vs. winter
« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2017, 08:19:16 AM »
[Obvious One-Post Troll is Obvious.  Everything that can be said here has been said.  Locking.]