eBay Fraud

[Eurotexan]

I am posting this topic primarily to warn you but partly, I will admit, to vent!

At a conference a few weeks ago I won a pair of Beats Studio Headphones. As a beginner Mustachian I decided to sell them on eBay and put the money into my IRA (pat on the back please!). I listed them for $235, they are worth $400. To cut a long story short, the buyer accused me of shipping him fakes. So I sent him the receipt. He then told me to reduce the price. I told him, very nicely, that I wasn't able to do that but if he didn't want them I was happy to refund his money when he sent them back. He reluctantly agreed. I received the package last night and he mailed me back an empty box!! He kept the headphones!! I was stunned, outraged and very upset that someone could steal from me like that. I called the police to file a report and jumped on the phone with eBay. Then I logged into paypal to discover they had also refunded him his money! So I was left with nothing!

After many hours on the phone with them, both yesterday and today, I was finally told that eBay basically doesn't believe me and since I can't prove it was the buyer who left them out, they have to refund his money. Again, not to get into too much detail but they buyer put as much in his eBay message that he was sending me back what I deserved (him thinking they were fake. But if they were, why didn't he return them?)

I am so upset. I am upset about the money that was stolen but I am more upset that eBay doesn't believe me and that someone could do that. Maybe I live in a bubble but is this what our society is about, stealing from people at every chance you get? As I talked to the eBay dispute guy he admitted to me that their policy is very much in favor of the buyer. Just terrible.

Many of you may have had good experiences on eBay but please take note of my cautionary tale. We work hard to save money, and not to splurge it on rubbish. I don't want this to happen to any of you!

Thanks for listening to me vent :)

[okashira]

You got the slightly expensive lesson to stay the fuck away from ebay/paypal.

Seriously. I do my selling on forums, amazon and Craigslist. I suggest you do it.

You could have registered on a headphone forum in 5 minutes and sold them for $350 with NO fees (while ebay/pp charge 15%)
and not had to deal with this.

Not rubbing it in. Ebay is a terrible monopoly, but only if you let them. Stick with forums.

I am posting this topic primarily to warn you but partly, I will admit, to vent!

At a conference a few weeks ago I won a pair of Beats Studio Headphones. As a beginner Mustachian I decided to sell them on eBay and put the money into my IRA (pat on the back please!). I listed them for $235, they are worth $400. To cut a long story short, the buyer accused me of shipping him fakes. So I sent him the receipt. He then told me to reduce the price. I told him, very nicely, that I wasn't able to do that but if he didn't want them I was happy to refund his money when he sent them back. He reluctantly agreed. I received the package last night and he mailed me back an empty box!! He kept the headphones!! I was stunned, outraged and very upset that someone could steal from me like that. I called the police to file a report and jumped on the phone with eBay. Then I logged into paypal to discover they had also refunded him his money! So I was left with nothing!

After many hours on the phone with them, both yesterday and today, I was finally told that eBay basically doesn't believe me and since I can't prove it was the buyer who left them out, they have to refund his money. Again, not to get into too much detail but they buyer put as much in his eBay message that he was sending me back what I deserved (him thinking they were fake. But if they were, why didn't he return them?)

I am so upset. I am upset about the money that was stolen but I am more upset that eBay doesn't believe me and that someone could do that. Maybe I live in a bubble but is this what our society is about, stealing from people at every chance you get? As I talked to the eBay dispute guy he admitted to me that their policy is very much in favor of the buyer. Just terrible.

Many of you may have had good experiences on eBay but please take note of my cautionary tale. We work hard to save money, and not to splurge it on rubbish. I don't want this to happen to any of you!

Thanks for listening to me vent :)

[Eurotexan]

You're right, lesson learnt right?

[ketchup]

eBay is VERY buyer-biased.

I've only ever really had one major issue as a seller, but it was pretty bad.

About a year ago, I sold a credit card machine given to me by my mom that didn't need it anymore, knew it had value (~$80), but didn't want the hassle of selling it.  The buyer messaged me after they got it, complaining it was locked or something (they never elaborated), and demanded a return/refund.  I granted them a refund, and they never sent it back.  And then they left me negative feedback that I cannot have removed.  It was pretty frustrating.

[CommonCents]

Threaten a small claims lawsuit if the headphones don't appear? 

ETA: Can you figure out their facebook page and whether they posted anything about it on their page?  Some people do stupid shit like that...

[Argyle]

Was there a way to not give the refund before the buyer returned the headphones?  That's what a business would do.

At the very least, spell out the whole story on the buyer's rating page.  Give the guy a zero.  You also might be able to get somewhere with Paypal -- why did they refund the money before receiving your authorization?

[luigi49]

Anyway you could wait for item before refunding?

[okashira]

Was there a way to not give the refund before the buyer returned the headphones?  That's what a business would do.

At the very least, spell out the whole story on the buyer's rating page.  Give the guy a zero.  You also might be able to get somewhere with Paypal -- why did they refund the money before receiving your authorization?

It's ebay , so he cant negative feedback the buyer.

Did he pack it light or add weight to the package?

It it was too light to contain headphones, perhaps you could procure some records showing the underweight package in transit. That would prove your case to a small claims judge or court. Name ebay / pp and the douchebag criminal on the same case for fun.

[Eric]

You got the guy's address, right?  Maybe for your next vacation you and your Jeff Gillooly-type buddy can go pay him a visit...

[Eurotexan]

I didn't refund the money, ebay did! They saw that the package had been delivered and went ahead and refunded the money, even though I had opened a dispute against him. Grrr!!!

[Eurotexan]

I didn't refund the money, ebay did! They saw that the package had been delivered and went ahead and refunded the money, even though I had opened a dispute against him. Grrr!!!

I thought about getting him some magazine subscriptions for inappropriate magazines and check the "Bill me later" box..

[okashira]

PSA:

paypal alternatives:
-accept bitcoin
-amazon payments
-cash
-google wallet / checkout

ebay alternatives:
-find internet forum related to product you're selling
-amazon
-craigslist
-swappa (cell phones)

[Khao]

Everyone should stay away from eBay unless you're a business or you're buying. Anybody can pull this trick and if you can't afford to lose the item, you can't afford to put it up on eBay.

Ebay/Paypal has a history of screwing over honest sellers : http://www.cnet.com/news/paypal-dispute-ends-in-destruction-of-violin/

[Eurotexan]

Everyone should stay away from eBay unless you're a business or you're buying. Anybody can pull this trick and if you can't afford to lose the item, you can't afford to put it up on eBay.

Ebay/Paypal has a history of screwing over honest sellers : http://www.cnet.com/news/paypal-dispute-ends-in-destruction-of-violin/

That's awful! I am trying to look at the bigger picture and tell myself that at least I am not out of pocket since I won them. But the fact that someone stole them still makes me mad!!

[Argyle]

How did they know the package had been received?

[Eurotexan]

How did they know the package had been received?

I purchased the shipping via ebay so they can track the package via USPS.

I wrote a letter to eBay's CEO and copied half a dozen executives. Yes, it probably won't make a blind bit of difference but it made me feel better!

[eil]

Yeah, eBay sides so heavily with the buyer in any dispute that sellers basically have no recourse against scammy buyers like yours. I don't understand it, it's like the management at eBay woke up one day and said, "Hey guys, you know what we should do? Take a huge wet watery piss all over everything that made our marketplace so popular. Then we'll make millions, right?"

After reading the numerous rip-off stories that go exactly like the one above, I've on rare occasion fantasized about scoring a gently used Thinkpad or two via this method. But I guess I have too much of a conscience to actually try it for myself.

[MicroRN]

I used to sell and buy on Ebay all the time and never had any problems.   When they raised the seller fees and changed the policies, I stopped.  Now I don't even buy there anymore.  Ebay used to be a great online yardsale.  You could find all kinds of things for reasonable prices.  I even bought a car and a horse trailer, and sold another horse trailer on there and never had a bad sale.  Now it all seems to be wholesale resellers, and it just doesn't have good deals.  I stick to local FB groups and to Craigslist now.  No fees, free listings.  We sold our $16K sailboat through CL, my old pickup, tons of horse gear and other random items. 

I'm sorry you got scammed.  Unfortunately, that seems to be happening a lot these days. 

[taekvideo]

Yeah I stick to craigslist mostly as well... and used amazon (with FBA) for my textbooks and a few other things
Got scammed once my first and only time selling with paypal (not through ebay), won't ever use them again.

[Argyle]

I'm glad you sent off the letters.

I've sold a bunch of stuff via eBay, and have dealt with some complainy buyers but no one who actually ripped me off.  I never use eBay's own shipping, though.  I like having maximum control over what's happening.

I hope this gets resolved, though I know the odds are not great.  So sorry.

[SJS]

I've been selling on Ebay for about 10- years, and initially all was well.  These days, Ebay is siding with the Sellers WAY too much - and I'm likely going to close up shop and use other avenues to sell.  Just not worth the hassle with some of the dishonest buyers out there - then to have Ebay tell the Seller that the Buyer/Customer is ALWAYS right.   I've been a really good seller, but I'm not sticking around while Ebay basically lets the Buyer tell me to "bend over!"  Not gonna happen! 

[oldtoyota]

eBay is VERY buyer-biased.

I've only ever really had one major issue as a seller, but it was pretty bad.

About a year ago, I sold a credit card machine given to me by my mom that didn't need it anymore, knew it had value (~$80), but didn't want the hassle of selling it.  The buyer messaged me after they got it, complaining it was locked or something (they never elaborated), and demanded a return/refund.  I granted them a refund, and they never sent it back.  And then they left me negative feedback that I cannot have removed.  It was pretty frustrating.

I have also heard that ebay takes the side of the buyer. I generally stay far away.

[Eric]

Yeah, eBay sides so heavily with the buyer in any dispute that sellers basically have no recourse against scammy buyers like yours. I don't understand it, it's like the management at eBay woke up one day and said, "Hey guys, you know what we should do? Take a huge wet watery piss all over everything that made our marketplace so popular. Then we'll make millions, right?"

I realize it seems unfair, but their whole business model doesn't exist without a bunch of buyers.  Who is going to put something up for sale knowing they'd only get one or two bids?  Therefore, it's in their best interest to skew towards the buyer, as without them, they fold.  However, it's easy to make the case that the pendulum has swung too far.

[data.Damnation]

TexasBrit, I feel your pain. I ran into a similar situation not too long. Coincidentally, I just posted about it in another thread a few hours ago!

From http://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/selling-a-iphone-3g-safely/msg290747/#msg290747

Wiping personal info is definitely important, but let me give you some advice on selling your phone. When you go to sell your phone, do not allow sell your phone to anyone outside the US! I listed my old iphone on ebay and the winning bidder was from Russia. I didn't realize I had allowed international bids but I didn't think it was a big deal. I shipped via USPS international which includes tracking and delivery confirmation. Well, the package got "lost" somewhere in Russia according to the tracking. The winning bidder claimed he never received it, so Ebay forced me to give him a full refund even though I had proof that I shipped the phone. Because I couldn't prove delivery, I had to give him a full refund. So now some asshole in Russia has a free iphone donated by me.

When it came time to sell my next phone, I made sure to only allow people in US to bid on it. When the auction completed, the winning bidder asked me to mail it to his address in Israel. Like I'm some kind of fucking idiot. I e-mail Ebay and demanded the auction be cancelled and the fees refunded, and fortunately they agreed. But I will never sell a phone on Ebay again. Either I'm really unlucky or there is a huge scammer market for phones on Ebay. I saw that Amazon offers a program where you get an Amazon credit worth fair market value if you sell your phone to them. After fees, it worked out to about the same as selling on Ebay, so I went with them instead. And this time I actually got paid for my phone!

So don't make the same mistake as me. Check what Amazon will give you and if it's a fair deal, go with them. If you have a death wish and want to sell your phone on Ebay, make sure you only sell in the US, get delivery confirmation, and don't ship via USPS.

[Chuck]

Craigslist bro. Or better, Amazon.

Stay the fuck away from Ebay.

[luigi49]

Just buy something from him and return the favor. 

[wtjbatman]

eBay is VERY buyer-biased.

I've only ever really had one major issue as a seller, but it was pretty bad.

About a year ago, I sold a credit card machine given to me by my mom that didn't need it anymore, knew it had value (~$80), but didn't want the hassle of selling it.  The buyer messaged me after they got it, complaining it was locked or something (they never elaborated), and demanded a return/refund.  I granted them a refund, and they never sent it back.  And then they left me negative feedback that I cannot have removed.  It was pretty frustrating.

Ok, obviously they screwed you by not sending it back... but why would you ever refund the money before getting the item back?

[totoro]

This strikes me as a totally planned scam.  My bet is that it is happening quite frequently. 

If it is any consolation, this post has convinced me never to use ebay.  An organization with such poor practices and no fraud management protection for buyers in this situation is not one I would support.

[luigi49]

This strikes me as a totally planned scam.  My bet is that it is happening quite frequently. 

If it is any consolation, this post has convinced me never to use ebay.  An organization with such poor practices and no fraud management protection for buyers in this situation is not one I would support.

Of coz it was planned.

[Thegoblinchief]

At least with Amazon you have control over when to issue a refund.

[Shade00]

I had a nightmare experience selling a Blackberry about a year ago. Buyer bought the Blackberry and I shipped to his confirmed address in Florida. Apparently this address was a package forwarder often used by scammers. Within an hour of deliver of the package, buyer opened a dispute that it was not working. I checked the option to give him a refund once he sent the phone back to me (I knew it worked). Well, lo and behold, the tracking number he uploaded for the "return shipment" was coming from California. I put scouted his Ebay profile and determined that this jackass had paid for a cheap watch to be shipped to me and as soon as the tracking number showed delivered he would get his money back, regardless of what was in the package. After many, many weeks and many, many phone calls to Paypal I FINALLY got my money back after they confiscated it during the dispute. However, by this point the buyer had also gotten his money back plus the Blackberry. First lesson I learned: in a Paypal dispute, always call, call, call for every communication with Paypal, and follow up with emails. Ask the live person to make notes in the dispute file. DO NOT let the deadlines pass automatically with Paypal promising to take care of it. You have to keep on them, and eventually you may get some assistance.

Second lesson: don't sell on Ebay.

[BFGirl]

I have generally had luck with ebay and have only had a couple of bad experiences.  The worst was as a buyer.  I had ordered some things and the seller did not ship.   I filed a claim near the end of the claims deadline.  The Seller then shipped to me, but only about 1/2 the quantity I ordered.  When I tried to get eBay to do something about it, they said my claim was for not shipping and not for the quantity being wrong.  Since the Seller had shipped, they closed my claim and said it was past the deadline for me to file another one.

[Cpa Cat]

My experience with Amazon was just as bad. A lot of scammers, and if you issue too many refunds, they just ban you from selling there. So be careful issuing refunds, always get tracking, and read their Seller Terms and Conditions. If you sell a lot of volume, it's not as big a deal, because you have a lot more cushion in your metrics. But if you're small-time, all it takes is a few scams. The ban is for life and there is no appeals process.

And Amazon is just as buyer-centric as Ebay. I once had someone claim that I had sold them a textbook that didn't meet the quality specifications (like new) and when they returned it to me, they returned a different textbook that looked like it had been run over by a truck a few times. It even had a sticker in it from the city that the buyer was in, showing that he bought it there.

I took photos, explained, cajoled. The guy still got his refund.

I never got scammed on Ebay - but came close. I was selling some fairly high-dollar collectibles. I excluded international sellers. The winning buyer wanted me to ship to his address in China. I refused.

But these experiences put me off wanting to sell stuff online. If I have anything that I can trade in somewhere, I just trade in now. I don't care if I make less money. I don't want to deal with the scams.

[GuitarStv]

My last and final experience with ebay involved someone pulling a similar stunt with a bass guitar.  Long story short, ebay didn't care and I lost my money.  I only do craigslist/kijiji transactions now.

[The Money Monk]

You got the guy's address, right?  Maybe for your next vacation you and your Jeff Gillooly-type buddy can go pay him a visit...

haha seriously, that's what I would do.

[The Money Monk]

I sell a lot on eBay ( dozens of items a month) and luckily have been relatively free of scams.

I get the occasional bogus complaint about something not being as described, even though I am very diligent about thorough descriptions.

Also, because I have had my account for a while I can withdraw my money from the paypal account before I even ship the item.

But for the original poster, since you have their address, email, I would let them know you can make their life miserable. Threaten legal action, call their employer, find their facebook, etc.

Then again, I am into vengeance, lol. It wouldn't even be about the money. I would want to ruin the fucker.

[Cpa Cat]

... Threaten legal action....

Then again, I am into vengeance, lol. It wouldn't even be about the money. I would want to ruin the fucker.

Since he actually said that he was sending you "what you deserved," it might be good enough evidence to sue him in small claims court. Try to get it picked up by Judge Judy.

It's an uphill battle, but the worst case scenario is that you're out 60 bucks on filing the suit. Best case scenario is that you get your money and shame him on national TV.

But if you do go that route - avoid sending threatening emails, going to his home, prank calling his mom or whatever else.

[Eurotexan]

I looked into filing via small claims court but he is in Virginia and I am in Texas, and I don't really know anyone in Virginia. I am seething at the bastard, I can just imagine him wearing MY Beats counting his refund!

My immediate plan is to keep sending weekly letters to the eBay CEO until they refund me.

I am still plotting my revenge on the bastard, keep the suggestions coming!

[AlexK]

I had a guy steal an RC car kit in a similar way. I called up his local RC track and they knew the guy well. I told them all about how he stole the car he is racing against them. I didn't get my $300 back but I felt a tiny bit better.

I like the idea of telling his Facebook friends where he got the headphones, especially his mom.

[luigi49]

My experience with Amazon was just as bad. A lot of scammers, and if you issue too many refunds, they just ban you from selling there. So be careful issuing refunds, always get tracking, and read their Seller Terms and Conditions. If you sell a lot of volume, it's not as big a deal, because you have a lot more cushion in your metrics. But if you're small-time, all it takes is a few scams. The ban is for life and there is no appeals process.

And Amazon is just as buyer-centric as Ebay. I once had someone claim that I had sold them a textbook that didn't meet the quality specifications (like new) and when they returned it to me, they returned a different textbook that looked like it had been run over by a truck a few times. It even had a sticker in it from the city that the buyer was in, showing that he bought it there.

I took photos, explained, cajoled. The guy still got his refund.

I never got scammed on Ebay - but came close. I was selling some fairly high-dollar collectibles. I excluded international sellers. The winning buyer wanted me to ship to his address in China. I refused.

But these experiences put me off wanting to sell stuff online. If I have anything that I can trade in somewhere, I just trade in now. I don't care if I make less money. I don't want to deal with the scams.

+100

[The Money Monk]

I looked into filing via small claims court but he is in Virginia and I am in Texas, and I don't really know anyone in Virginia. I am seething at the bastard, I can just imagine him wearing MY Beats counting his refund!

My immediate plan is to keep sending weekly letters to the eBay CEO until they refund me.

I am still plotting my revenge on the bastard, keep the suggestions coming!

There are plenty of options for revenge, depending on how scrupulous you are haha.

But as far as getting your money back, The best bet is not necessarily the effectiveness of legal action, but the THREAT of legal action. Maybe send some kind of notarized official letter from some law firm letterhead you got off google, saying he has x number of days to refund the money before the issue is forwarded to the local police, and the fbi for mail fraud, or some shit.

If by some chance he is in the military contacting his commanding officer would do wonders (even the threat of doing so)

[plantingourpennies]

Similar thing happened to us about a year and a half ago.  Sold an item for $350 (it was free to us years before), paid $35 to ship it insured.  Guy claimed the item was broken and required a $75 repair.  It worked before we shipped it, but we still said, okay either send back the item or we will lower the price to reflect the difference.  The item was never shipped back, ebay didn't believe us, and the guy requested all of his money back.  The biggest punch in the gut came a week or two later when ebay hit us with ~$35 in seller fees for our "successful sale".  It made ZERO sense and customer service at ebay/paypal was horrible. 

We will NEVER list on ebay ever again.  We are out $70 AND the item that we had.   

[CommonCents]

Huh, makes me think about taping a video of the item working, to submit for proof later if needed.  If they claim it doesn't work, ask them how it doesn't work, then request a video of it not working.  Not sure if it'd work, but it'd be more documentation at least.

[zachd]

First, sorry this happened to you, you did basically get ripped off by a scam artist.

How many feedbacks did the buyer have?  Usually scammers don't have much feedback and you can block bidders based on their feedback and that's a good way to avoid getting scammed.

Selling most stuff on ebay is easy but selling things like cell phones or beats headphones you are going to encounter more issues.

Now that it's happened, if you do have their address you might want to call the local police department where you believe they live.  The one time I got scammed online (it was before ebay actually) I called their local police department and reported it.  Other people had gotten scammed and they had called also.  It did not take them long to determine a teenager was scamming people and had a stash of stolen video games and other stuff in his room. 

I got a few things back months later but mainly it was good to know they didn't get away with it.

Of course if they live in a major metropolitan area you may not have a ton of luck with that but you might try it anyways can't hurt.

[Eurotexan]

A BIG thank you to everyone for your support, but sorry to hear there are many more eBay tales of woe out there!

I did find a site which creates fake lawsuits. I am tempted to do that. It's totally legally, hopefully it will scare the crap out of him!

[Eurotexan]

Totally forgot to say, the buyer is goldragon99. You eBay sellers out there might want to block him!

[AlexK]

Put up his name and address too, if anyone ever googles him they will see this thread and know who they are dealing with.

[luigi49]

Totally forgot to say, the buyer is goldragon99. You eBay sellers out there might want to block him!

Thank you for sharing and also echo alex above.   I saw this ones on a forum where the membrs help the victim recover the item.  It doesnt hurt to try.  I hate scammers

[Daleth]

Threaten a small claims lawsuit if the headphones don't appear? 

ETA: Can you figure out their facebook page and whether they posted anything about it on their page?  Some people do stupid shit like that...

Also, can you prove from the amount of postage on the box that the headphones were not in there because if they had been it would have needed more postage? If so, take that evidence right back to eBay.

[Hugh H]

Quick question - Would having the "No Returns Accepted" on the listing take care of all these return scams?

I've only sold two things on Ebay, but was looking at ramping up my selling and this thread is scary.