E-bikes are saving the world

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

You may have missed my big bike event- my 11yo was struck by a car while biking on the sidewalk (I mean, crossing a street while biking on the sidewalk) and then the civilian crash inspector ticketed him for biking on the sidewalk in general and the left-hand sidewalk in particular. I didn't know it was illegal before that. LB is fine- two weeks on crutches- but when the guy who hit him called me and said in a broken voice, "Your son - he was crossing the street"- there was a horrible split second that I will never forget, where I thought he was going to tell me that one of my kids was dead. (Dude was just upset because he'd hit a kid with his car!) So that's why we don't bike on the sidewalk anymore.

That's interesting about the "indicator species." I definitely see other parents out there towing kids! My older kids are 11 and 12 but then I have this "caboose baby" to tow around on my ebike! Second chance!

10 years and 30 pounds ago, I could pull both those boys in a trailer with a non-motorized bike. One time I loaded the trailer so full, I blew out the tire. Good times!

I do recall that - I'm sorry if I sounded insensitive as that wasn't my intention at all. Sidewalks have their own dangers, as your son experienced - how is doing? Getting ticketed just ads insult to injury when you've been put into a no-win situation. My comment was only that I don't fault anyone for riding on the sidewalk if they feel it's the safer option. Better infrastructure is the only reliable solution.

He's fully recovered, thanks for asking! We have virtual court Monday for the ticket and I will have to pull him out of school- the whole thing is so dumb! I'm pretty nervous because I don't know what to expect but fortunately he doesn't seem too worried. More lightheartedly- I remember thinking one of my kids was dead and will never forget that- what HE remembers from that phone call was the guy hesitating over the word "son" because he wasn't sure if LB (with pre-adolescent facial features, beautiful long hair, both ears pierced, and riding a purple women's bike) was a boy or a girl!

[seattlecyclone]

I think the rental bikes/scooters definitely have their niche as part of a multimodal transit network. They're great for if you take a bus/train that gets pretty close to your destination but drops you off a mile short. A bike right there can turn your 15 minute walk into a 5 minute ride. Regarding the perceived clutter issue: yes, people sometimes park where they shouldn't. It's inconsiderate. I'll just say I find myself needing to squeeze around cars that people parked where they shouldn't have much more often than I need to do for the rental scooters. And yet, getting rid of cars from our streets remains a pretty fringe position.

I'm sorry to hear about your kid's bike issues @La Bibliotecaria Feroz! Around here sidewalk riding is perfectly legal as long as you yield to people walking. This applies to manual bicycles as well as class 1/2 electric bicycles. For some reason the electric scooters that have the same mass and speed as a class 2 electric bicycle are illegal to ride on sidewalks. I'll still do it for short stretches where the alternative is likely death on a busy street that they haven't bothered to put a bike lane on yet.

[lutorm]

With 6" of fresh snow outside currently I'm also not sure how well they would work.

A rear-studded tire makes a huge difference when biking in the snow or on ice, and surprisingly, a front-studded tire does not improve anything. For about ten years of my life when I lived and worked in Yellowknife -one of the coldest places in Canada, I commuted on an old Trek mountain bike I got for $60. With a rear-studded tire and properly onion-layered winter gear, I could ride anywhere, including a stretch of about 2 km on a frozen lake. The coldest temperature I rode in was -47C -I almost decided to go back to bed that morning after I checked the thermometer, but it was a clear windless day and the ride was fine. But I remember that one day when the temperature was only -30 C, but with winds of 30 km/h, and I had to stop to warm up every 10 minutes.

I miss the crackling sound of the steel studs on the ice.

At university, we biked everywhere. Now that was not in a place that got anywhere near -47C (that's nuts) but it did get snow and ice. So I'm not a stranger to winter biking, although it was a long time ago. Back then I didn't even know there were studded bike tires (or maybe they're a new invention), we just had normal mtb tires, but it was always the front wheel that caused problems for me. It wasn't propulsion traction that was the problem, it was the front tire sliding out on turns. So I'm a bit surprised your experience was that it didn't make a difference.

As a practical matter, though, I'm not sure studs or not will matter in 6" of snow. It just takes so much power to get through in those conditions, but maybe with a electric assist it's doable. But since we're apparently having the most snow in 50 years, maybe I shouldn't judge the practicality of biking based on the past month and a half...

[Cranky]

I think the rental bikes/scooters definitely have their niche as part of a multimodal transit network. They're great for if you take a bus/train that gets pretty close to your destination but drops you off a mile short. A bike right there can turn your 15 minute walk into a 5 minute ride. Regarding the perceived clutter issue: yes, people sometimes park where they shouldn't. It's inconsiderate. I'll just say I find myself needing to squeeze around cars that people parked where they shouldn't have much more often than I need to do for the rental scooters. And yet, getting rid of cars from our streets remains a pretty fringe position.

I'm sorry to hear about your kid's bike issues @La Bibliotecaria Feroz! Around here sidewalk riding is perfectly legal as long as you yield to people walking. This applies to manual bicycles as well as class 1/2 electric bicycles. For some reason the electric scooters that have the same mass and speed as a class 2 electric bicycle are illegal to ride on sidewalks. I'll still do it for short stretches where the alternative is likely death on a busy street that they haven't bothered to put a bike lane on yet.

The rental bikes here don’t stop charging you until you’ve returned them properly, which seems like a big incentive. I’ve never seen one abandoned. (We tried them out to see if we could still ride bikes before we bought any!)

[Just Joe]

10 years and 30 pounds ago, I could pull both those boys in a trailer with a non-motorized bike. One time I loaded the trailer so full, I blew out the tire. Good times!

I remember an episode where the trailer plus me, plus baby plus huge hill meant that I did not have enough brakes to stop. I could only slow us. Rim brakes on a cheap Walmart bike I owned then before disc brakes were common.

Could have gone badly. In the end all was fine. My fear was that what braking I did have might fade to nothing as the brake pads climbed in temperature. Did not repeat that route for further testing.

[GuitarStv]

10 years and 30 pounds ago, I could pull both those boys in a trailer with a non-motorized bike. One time I loaded the trailer so full, I blew out the tire. Good times!

I remember an episode where the trailer plus me, plus baby plus huge hill meant that I did not have enough brakes to stop. I could only slow us. Rim brakes on a cheap bike I owned then before disc brakes were common.

Could have gone badly. In the end all was fine. My fear was that what braking I did have might fade to nothing as the brake pads climbed in temperature. Did not repeat that route.

I've had some excitement towing my son in a trailer down a long and steep hill while trying to slow with rim brakes too.  This is definitly an area where discs are a good idea.

[Just Joe]

That was about the time I vowed no more Walmart bikes. I was on my one and only.

It lasted less than a couple hundred miles before it began falling apart.

Replaced it with a low cost Trek mtn bike in 2008. Still riding that bike. No idea how many miles it has now. Has about 4000 miles as a DIY ebike and some number of miles as a pedal bike.

Worth the ~$350 I paid for it new plus the upgrades since (fenders, disc brakes, lights, etc).

Talked to a college guy a month or two ago. His new Walmart mtn bike lasted one afternoon before the freewheel came apart and his disc brakes on one end failed too.

[Fru-Gal]

When traveling I use the local city rental e-bikes and scooters a lot. The change to e-bikes is really welcome, because those bulky city bikes were so awful. Now it’s the same bulky bike but fun to ride. They have barely any power, but just enough to take away the annoyance. If I was right near a bike parking station I could potentially see a monthly subscription to a service like Lyft e-bikes. My e-bike rides when traveling are always expensive cause I tend to ride for 2-3 hours.

As for the topic of this thread, I love it! This is what environmental journalist Lloyd Alters (formerly of Tree Hugger) has been saying for awhile.

[GuitarStv]

That was about the time I vowed no more Walmart bikes. I was on my one and only.

It lasted less than a couple hundred miles before it began falling apart.

Replaced it with a low cost Trek mtn bike in 2008. Still riding that bike. No idea how many miles it has now. Has about 4000 miles as a DIY ebike and some number of miles as a pedal bike.

Worth the ~$350 I paid for it new plus the upgrades since (fenders, disc brakes, lights, etc).

Talked to a college guy a month or two ago. His new Walmart mtn bike lasted one afternoon before the freewheel came apart and his disc brakes on one end failed too.

Big box stores don't sell bikes - only bike shaped objects.  They are superficially the same, but different in many important respects.

[Chaplin]

Big box stores don't sell bikes - only bike shaped objects.  They are superficially the same, but different in many important respects.

This is very true. Saying it is often viewed as bike person or bike shop snobbery but it really is the case. The bike industry is not regulated the way the car industry is. I'm not saying it should be, but the consequence is that even the lowest price car out there is already meeting a very high standard in many aspects, which is not the case with a bike. You have a dirt cheap piece of equipment assembled out of a box by whoever couldn't weasel out of the task. This is bad with bikes, but it's disastrous with e-bikes.

[Just Joe]

That was about the time I vowed no more Walmart bikes. I was on my one and only.

It lasted less than a couple hundred miles before it began falling apart.

Replaced it with a low cost Trek mtn bike in 2008. Still riding that bike. No idea how many miles it has now. Has about 4000 miles as a DIY ebike and some number of miles as a pedal bike.

Worth the ~$350 I paid for it new plus the upgrades since (fenders, disc brakes, lights, etc).

Talked to a college guy a month or two ago. His new Walmart mtn bike lasted one afternoon before the freewheel came apart and his disc brakes on one end failed too.

Big box stores don't sell bikes - only bike shaped objects.  They are superficially the same, but different in many important respects.

Yep, my Walmart bike hammered home that lesson. Every once in a while I get reminders that this situation has not changed.

[afox]

Regarding studded snow bike tires: they are utterly amazing, they have vastly expanded the bounds of safe winter cycling. I live in a ski town where we get 400' of snow per year and ride a fat tire ebike with studded snow tires every day in winter. There is no way in hell anyone would be doing this without TWO fat studded snow tires on an ebike. Yes you need two expensive tires, that guy that says you need one is leaving something important out of his story. And as for the ebike, I bike around 2 kids one adult and 3 backpacks in winter, u think im going to do that on a pedal bike. THe guys calling ppl out for riding an ebike vs. pedal bikes are just trolls, they practice at troll training school quite a bit to come out with stupid witty posts like those. I do it because its fun and it saves money and its more convenient (I beat out all the people parking in cars).

To me an urban cyclist of over 30 years to ride an electric cargo bike with my two young children on teh back with three pairs of skis/poles/and more from my house to an incredible ski area, park teh bike and walk 30 steps to hop on a gondola is better than a dream.

[AnotherEngineer]

Regarding studded snow bike tires: they are utterly amazing, they have vastly expanded the bounds of safe winter cycling. I live in a ski town where we get 400' of snow per year and ride a fat tire ebike with studded snow tires every day in winter. There is no way in hell anyone would be doing this without TWO fat studded snow tires on an ebike. Yes you need two expensive tires, that guy that says you need one is leaving something important out of his story. And as for the ebike, I bike around 2 kids one adult and 3 backpacks in winter, u think im going to do that on a pedal bike. THe guys calling ppl out for riding an ebike vs. pedal bikes are just trolls, they practice at troll training school quite a bit to come out with stupid witty posts like those. I do it because its fun and it saves money and its more convenient (I beat out all the people parking in cars).

To me an urban cyclist of over 30 years to ride an electric cargo bike with my two young children on teh back with three pairs of skis/poles/and more from my house to an incredible ski area, park teh bike and walk 30 steps to hop on a gondola is better than a dream.

Keep living the dream! Recreating without needing a car is my dream too.

In Alaska, you could get by with a mountain bike some days and fat bike tires without studs some more days, but if you want to be able to ride every day in the winter (i.e. nearly all the Lower 48), I concur it is studded fat bikes tires....but only in extreme places like that! Places that expect to get to bare pavement on trails and bike lanes after some maintenance only need a cheap (read: older, not box store) mountain bike and a spare set of wheels to easily swap between normal and studded tires. And if you want to go cheap and only get one, put the studs on the wheel that steers and brakes!

[Arbitrage]

Regarding studded snow bike tires: they are utterly amazing, they have vastly expanded the bounds of safe winter cycling. I live in a ski town where we get 400' of snow per year and ride a fat tire ebike with studded snow tires every day in winter. There is no way in hell anyone would be doing this without TWO fat studded snow tires on an ebike. Yes you need two expensive tires, that guy that says you need one is leaving something important out of his story. And as for the ebike, I bike around 2 kids one adult and 3 backpacks in winter, u think im going to do that on a pedal bike. THe guys calling ppl out for riding an ebike vs. pedal bikes are just trolls, they practice at troll training school quite a bit to come out with stupid witty posts like those. I do it because its fun and it saves money and its more convenient (I beat out all the people parking in cars).

To me an urban cyclist of over 30 years to ride an electric cargo bike with my two young children on teh back with three pairs of skis/poles/and more from my house to an incredible ski area, park teh bike and walk 30 steps to hop on a gondola is better than a dream.

Keep living the dream! Recreating without needing a car is my dream too.

In Alaska, you could get by with a mountain bike some days and fat bike tires without studs some more days, but if you want to be able to ride every day in the winter (i.e. nearly all the Lower 48), I concur it is studded fat bikes tires....but only in extreme places like that! Places that expect to get to bare pavement on trails and bike lanes after some maintenance only need a cheap (read: older, not box store) mountain bike and a spare set of wheels to easily swap between normal and studded tires. And if you want to go cheap and only get one, put the studs on the wheel that steers and brakes!

I get by in the PNW with one studded tire (and not quite fat bike territory, 2.8") during the ~5 month period where we can get icy.  I'm definitely not equipped for much actual snow on the roads, especially with how hilly my town is.  Thankfully, we only have snow accumulation of that sort from a couple of days to max 2 weeks out of the year, and I work from home, so I can just choose not to bother during those periods. 

Good to hear some of the stories and strategies from people who deal with real winter.

Also agree that it's all about the infrastructure.  With safe and convenient infrastructure, biking as transit would grow immensely in popularity.  That's what I'm fighting for locally, and thankfully live in a place that's relatively amenable to it.

[spartana]

Regarding studded snow bike tires: they are utterly amazing, they have vastly expanded the bounds of safe winter cycling. I live in a ski town where we get 400' of snow per year and ride a fat tire ebike with studded snow tires every day in winter. There is no way in hell anyone would be doing this without TWO fat studded snow tires on an ebike. Yes you need two expensive tires, that guy that says you need one is leaving something important out of his story. And as for the ebike, I bike around 2 kids one adult and 3 backpacks in winter, u think im going to do that on a pedal bike. THe guys calling ppl out for riding an ebike vs. pedal bikes are just trolls, they practice at troll training school quite a bit to come out with stupid witty posts like those. I do it because its fun and it saves money and its more convenient (I beat out all the people parking in cars).

To me an urban cyclist of over 30 years to ride an electric cargo bike with my two young children on teh back with three pairs of skis/poles/and more from my house to an incredible ski area, park teh bike and walk 30 steps to hop on a gondola is better than a dream.

You need to re-read my post. I was not trolling. I made a simple observation that many (most) of the people (including kids in the 8 -16 range) I see now ride ebikes (and generally not pedalling)  instead of pedal bikes for "recreational" riding and I "personally" believe that much of the health and fitness benefits are less then a human powered bike. . I was not talking about commuters or people lugging around trailers full of equipment, kids or dogs. Others have said that's not the case and, while I don't agree 100%, I am fine accepting that's their take on it. FWIW I've never said people shouldn't use ebikes, I think they're a great alternative to cars and most other forms of transit besides human powered,  I was just talking about my personal observation as a person who's been car free for years and just bikes.

[Log]

Those "bikes" look like they do have pedals and a self-propulsion mechanism, just hidden beneath all the bodywork designed for it to look more scooter like.

But I agree, the line between bike/scooter is more blurred than before.

I'm a bit skeptical about some of these claims about the greeness of ebikes and scooters tbh.  Here in London we have fleets of e-bike/scooter schemes than can't be profitable.  The get vandalised and stolen, and then the bikes can get left anyway on the sidewalk which sorta pisses everyone off.  They pay some poor sod minimum wages to drive around the city overnight and pick them all up and return them to their parking stations.  It's not a sustainable business model.

There's a huge difference between (the greenness of) owning and using your own e-bike/scooter and those rental schemes.  Don't think you should conflate the two.  Those schemes have tons of flaws, but that's not really what this is about.

Would either/both of you care to elaborate on your complaints about these programs? To my mind, a car trip replaced with a micro-mobility trip is just as good whether the user owns or rents the device in question.

These rental schemes get a hell of a lot of people's foot in the door who might not be willing to make the upfront investment of buying a scooter or e-bike themselves or don't have the storage space. It makes it easier for tourists to decide they don't need to rent a car. They provide peace of mind for people who are worried that their bike would get stolen if they bought their own. There are a lot of benefits to these things.

I've heard lots of anecdotes of people who own their own bikes making regular use of bikeshare bikes just to have flexibility (bike downhill, take transit back up; or bike to the bar, take transit after they've been drinking). I have lots of friends who went to a school in downtown LA without cars, and scooter rentals seemed to be really genuinely useful for them due to the lack of better transit service in LA.

I just don't see the reason for the hate. Yes, it costs money to replace and repair stolen/damaged bikes and scooters, yes maintaining the system requires employing people to drive around and move bikes between stations or retrieve abandoned scooters... But so what? It costs money to pave roads, it costs money to provide free or subsidized public parking, it costs money to repair sidewalks, it costs money to run a transit system. It's a piece of the overall puzzle of solving our transportation woes, which gets more people to take the lower-carbon, and less space-intensive option rather than driving. That warrants some public subsidy.

The "can't be profitable" line seems just as nonsensical here as when applied to public transit, and I don't understand where the purported "difference in greenness" is supposedly coming from. Yes, there's more wear and tear on a shared rental bike/scooter, so they need to be replaced more often... because it gets used a lot! That's a good thing!

And again, the nuisance of some young people *gasp* having fun riding around town on e-scooters, or some jerks leaving some scooters laying around carelessly, is a fraction of a percentage of the harms caused by cars.

[seattlecyclone]

I just don't see the reason for the hate. Yes, it costs money to replace and repair stolen/damaged bikes and scooters, yes maintaining the system requires employing people to drive around and move bikes between stations or retrieve abandoned scooters... But so what? It costs money to pave roads, it costs money to provide free or subsidized public parking, it costs money to repair sidewalks, it costs money to run a transit system. It's a piece of the overall puzzle of solving our transportation woes, which gets more people to take the lower-carbon, and less space-intensive option rather than driving. That warrants some public subsidy.

I wish these things got public subsidy around here. Instead they're run as a private business and charge accordingly (one provider charges $1 plus nearly 50˘/minute for a ride). Ride five minutes and you've already spent more than the train fare to go 20 miles to the airport. My dream is for the transit agency to buy a bunch of them and outfit them with transit card readers for free transfers between bikes/scooters and other transit vehicles. It could even save them money if it means some of the most popular bus routes could run slightly less often at peak times. For the cost of one transit bus you can buy at least 1,000 scooters.

[Log]

I just don't see the reason for the hate. Yes, it costs money to replace and repair stolen/damaged bikes and scooters, yes maintaining the system requires employing people to drive around and move bikes between stations or retrieve abandoned scooters... But so what? It costs money to pave roads, it costs money to provide free or subsidized public parking, it costs money to repair sidewalks, it costs money to run a transit system. It's a piece of the overall puzzle of solving our transportation woes, which gets more people to take the lower-carbon, and less space-intensive option rather than driving. That warrants some public subsidy.

I wish these things got public subsidy around here. Instead they're run as a private business and charge accordingly (one provider charges $1 plus nearly 50˘/minute for a ride). Ride five minutes and you've already spent more than the train fare to go 20 miles to the airport. My dream is for the transit agency to buy a bunch of them and outfit them with transit card readers for free transfers between bikes/scooters and other transit vehicles. It could even save them money if it means some of the most popular bus routes could run slightly less often at peak times. For the cost of one transit bus you can buy at least 1,000 scooters.

Yeah that's an important distinction I omitted - most of the bikeshare programs are public-private partnerships while most of the scooters are fully private, and priced accordingly... I would use the scooters quite a bit around SF if they were cheaper, and BayWheels isn't particularly useful for me because I don't have any bike docking stations close by, so I use neither and just rely on walking and transit.

[Arbitrage]

Those "bikes" look like they do have pedals and a self-propulsion mechanism, just hidden beneath all the bodywork designed for it to look more scooter like.

But I agree, the line between bike/scooter is more blurred than before.

I'm a bit skeptical about some of these claims about the greeness of ebikes and scooters tbh.  Here in London we have fleets of e-bike/scooter schemes than can't be profitable.  The get vandalised and stolen, and then the bikes can get left anyway on the sidewalk which sorta pisses everyone off.  They pay some poor sod minimum wages to drive around the city overnight and pick them all up and return them to their parking stations.  It's not a sustainable business model.

There's a huge difference between (the greenness of) owning and using your own e-bike/scooter and those rental schemes.  Don't think you should conflate the two.  Those schemes have tons of flaws, but that's not really what this is about.

Would either/both of you care to elaborate on your complaints about these programs? To my mind, a car trip replaced with a micro-mobility trip is just as good whether the user owns or rents the device in question.

These rental schemes get a hell of a lot of people's foot in the door who might not be willing to make the upfront investment of buying a scooter or e-bike themselves or don't have the storage space. It makes it easier for tourists to decide they don't need to rent a car. They provide peace of mind for people who are worried that their bike would get stolen if they bought their own. There are a lot of benefits to these things.

I've heard lots of anecdotes of people who own their own bikes making regular use of bikeshare bikes just to have flexibility (bike downhill, take transit back up; or bike to the bar, take transit after they've been drinking). I have lots of friends who went to a school in downtown LA without cars, and scooter rentals seemed to be really genuinely useful for them due to the lack of better transit service in LA.

I just don't see the reason for the hate. Yes, it costs money to replace and repair stolen/damaged bikes and scooters, yes maintaining the system requires employing people to drive around and move bikes between stations or retrieve abandoned scooters... But so what? It costs money to pave roads, it costs money to provide free or subsidized public parking, it costs money to repair sidewalks, it costs money to run a transit system. It's a piece of the overall puzzle of solving our transportation woes, which gets more people to take the lower-carbon, and less space-intensive option rather than driving. That warrants some public subsidy.

The "can't be profitable" line seems just as nonsensical here as when applied to public transit, and I don't understand where the purported "difference in greenness" is supposedly coming from. Yes, there's more wear and tear on a shared rental bike/scooter, so they need to be replaced more often... because it gets used a lot! That's a good thing!

And again, the nuisance of some young people *gasp* having fun riding around town on e-scooters, or some jerks leaving some scooters laying around carelessly, is a fraction of a percentage of the harms caused by cars.

I was speaking to how "green" the programs are, not to their merit in general.  They're better than a car, yes.  From what I've read, though, they're not super-green when you account for the very low lifespan of the heavily-abused scooters and the amount of gas spent by the people racing each other around town to load these things into their cars to charge them back at home.  The low lifespan isn't just from usage; it's from theft, damage, vandalism, etc. 

Totally agree that basically every micromobility trip is a net gain over another car trip, but there also seem to be tons of kinks to work out of the abandoned scooter business model.

[afox]

Regarding studded snow bike tires: they are utterly amazing, they have vastly expanded the bounds of safe winter cycling. I live in a ski town where we get 400' of snow per year and ride a fat tire ebike with studded snow tires every day in winter. There is no way in hell anyone would be doing this without TWO fat studded snow tires on an ebike. Yes you need two expensive tires, that guy that says you need one is leaving something important out of his story. And as for the ebike, I bike around 2 kids one adult and 3 backpacks in winter, u think im going to do that on a pedal bike. THe guys calling ppl out for riding an ebike vs. pedal bikes are just trolls, they practice at troll training school quite a bit to come out with stupid witty posts like those. I do it because its fun and it saves money and its more convenient (I beat out all the people parking in cars).

To me an urban cyclist of over 30 years to ride an electric cargo bike with my two young children on teh back with three pairs of skis/poles/and more from my house to an incredible ski area, park teh bike and walk 30 steps to hop on a gondola is better than a dream.

You need to re-read my post. I was not trolling. I made a simple observation that many (most) of the people (including kids in the 8 -16 range) I see now ride ebikes (and generally not pedalling)  instead of pedal bikes for "recreational" riding and I "personally" believe that much of the health and fitness benefits are less then a human powered bike. . I was not talking about commuters or people lugging around trailers full of equipment, kids or dogs. Others have said that's not the case and, while I don't agree 100%, I am fine accepting that's their take on it. FWIW I've never said people shouldn't use ebikes, I think they're a great alternative to cars and most other forms of transit besides human powered,  I was just talking about my personal observation as a person who's been car free for years and just bikes.

You're assuming that they would be on a pedal bike if they were not on an ebike. If they dont like pedaling and are lazy if they were not on the ebike, they'd be in a car or on the couch. Would you rather have the kids out on ebikes or at home playing video games?

[mm1970]

I'm actually more concerned about the safety of young people on ebikes, especially after my 11yo got hit by a car on his regular bike. It seems like there's a lot of potential for things to go wrong. I haven't let my boys try it out yet.

It's all about the infrastructure! If it were safe to get around, and destinations had covered (at least) or indoor secure parking, the use of all types bikes would go up massively, leaving that 1% number in the dust. Add in transit integration, better land-use planning, etc. and over the longer term it would be transformational.

I've always wanted to dramatically decrease our car use and this year has been a big one for us. It takes a whole bunch of little steps to keep reducing the friction so that it's easier and easier to make the bike the logical choice when you walk out the door. This has culminated in not renewing the insurance on one car to see how it will go and it's no big deal so far. I'd like to get rid of it and just get a car-share membership instead.

Some of the little steps to reduce friction:
1. I upgraded my "winter bike" - mostly a rainy season rather than a snowy season here, although if it does snow I just bring out the MTB.

2. I converted my wife's existing bike to an e-bike. I still feel like many people just don't give themselves the time to get over the fitness hump to the point where any bike will do, but the reality is that it was do this conversion or she wasn't going to ride anywhere near as much, and this is going to be the case for a lot of people. Less car, more good.

3. Upgraded my son's bike to something pretty nice but not crazy fancy and put good fenders on it (fenders are a game changer if you've never used them). He rides it to school every day and around town with me or with friends.

4. Arranged the shed to make access easier.

5. Upcoming project: build an open closet where we come into the house with a charging station for lights, a boot drier, a rack for wet clothes, hooks for helmets and gloves, etc. so it's super-easy to leave or return from a bike ride and deal with the gear.

6: Upcoming project: build a separate shed for a few bikes to make them even easier to grab (current shed is a pain no matter what, partly because of location).

7. Eventually, add a cargo bike to the fleet. I like to get groceries in small batches with a backpack, but my wife prefers fewer, bigger loads. Groceries by bike might always be a team effort with me or my son doing cargo bike duty, but it's entirely possible that my wife might embrace it and just replace the car with the bike for that purpose.

In case it's not obvious, this whole topic is a huge interest of mine...

This!  Living in So Cal, E-bikes are everywhere here.  I see a ton of kids riding them to school, and at least for junior high and high school, those bikes are replacing a car trip.  My teen bikes home (on a regular old pedal bike) 2x a week.  It's 5.5 miles.  Plenty of his classmates ride to/from school on E-bikes.

Dh and I occasionally try to bike to work, but it's been awhile since we've managed it.  2 kids, 2 schools, it's a conundrum.  As far as biking downtown or for errands, it's theft that is an issue.  SO much theft.  At work I can leave my bike in my office or in the loading dock.

Downtown has an indoor bike parking spot that is monitored, but you have to be a member, so it's really there for people who work there.

[spartana]

Regarding studded snow bike tires: they are utterly amazing, they have vastly expanded the bounds of safe winter cycling. I live in a ski town where we get 400' of snow per year and ride a fat tire ebike with studded snow tires every day in winter. There is no way in hell anyone would be doing this without TWO fat studded snow tires on an ebike. Yes you need two expensive tires, that guy that says you need one is leaving something important out of his story. And as for the ebike, I bike around 2 kids one adult and 3 backpacks in winter, u think im going to do that on a pedal bike. THe guys calling ppl out for riding an ebike vs. pedal bikes are just trolls, they practice at troll training school quite a bit to come out with stupid witty posts like those. I do it because its fun and it saves money and its more convenient (I beat out all the people parking in cars).

To me an urban cyclist of over 30 years to ride an electric cargo bike with my two young children on teh back with three pairs of skis/poles/and more from my house to an incredible ski area, park teh bike and walk 30 steps to hop on a gondola is better than a dream.

You need to re-read my post. I was not trolling. I made a simple observation that many (most) of the people (including kids in the 8 -16 range) I see now ride ebikes (and generally not pedalling)  instead of pedal bikes for "recreational" riding and I "personally" believe that much of the health and fitness benefits are less then a human powered bike. . I was not talking about commuters or people lugging around trailers full of equipment, kids or dogs. Others have said that's not the case and, while I don't agree 100%, I am fine accepting that's their take on it. FWIW I've never said people shouldn't use ebikes, I think they're a great alternative to cars and most other forms of transit besides human powered,  I was just talking about my personal observation as a person who's been car free for years and just bikes.

You're assuming that they would be on a pedal bike if they were not on an ebike. If they dont like pedaling and are lazy if they were not on the ebike, they'd be in a car or on the couch. Would you rather have the kids out on ebikes or at home playing video games?

Probably not too many 12 year olds driving themselves to school lol. Again I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't taking about people - kids or adults - who wouldn't or couldn't ride bikes. I was talking about people who ride bikes recreationally shifting to ebikes instead of pedal bikes. My comment was about the health and fitness levels between those 2 things. Nothing more.

Like @mm1970 I live in SoCal where a huge number of people bike recreationally and I've seen the shift from human powered to ebikes in the last year and I  don't feel the health and fitness benefits of recreational ebiking, especially when pedalling is limited, are the same as a pedal bike. Others in this thread disagree and Im fine with that. Doesn't maka me a troll in troll school though. As someone who has been riding recreationally nearly daily for the past 20 plus years, I believe I have a much higher fitness level and health then I would if I had done exactly the same on an ebikes. Just my 2 cents.

[Cranky]

Regarding studded snow bike tires: they are utterly amazing, they have vastly expanded the bounds of safe winter cycling. I live in a ski town where we get 400' of snow per year and ride a fat tire ebike with studded snow tires every day in winter. There is no way in hell anyone would be doing this without TWO fat studded snow tires on an ebike. Yes you need two expensive tires, that guy that says you need one is leaving something important out of his story. And as for the ebike, I bike around 2 kids one adult and 3 backpacks in winter, u think im going to do that on a pedal bike. THe guys calling ppl out for riding an ebike vs. pedal bikes are just trolls, they practice at troll training school quite a bit to come out with stupid witty posts like those. I do it because its fun and it saves money and its more convenient (I beat out all the people parking in cars).

To me an urban cyclist of over 30 years to ride an electric cargo bike with my two young children on teh back with three pairs of skis/poles/and more from my house to an incredible ski area, park teh bike and walk 30 steps to hop on a gondola is better than a dream.

You need to re-read my post. I was not trolling. I made a simple observation that many (most) of the people (including kids in the 8 -16 range) I see now ride ebikes (and generally not pedalling)  instead of pedal bikes for "recreational" riding and I "personally" believe that much of the health and fitness benefits are less then a human powered bike. . I was not talking about commuters or people lugging around trailers full of equipment, kids or dogs. Others have said that's not the case and, while I don't agree 100%, I am fine accepting that's their take on it. FWIW I've never said people shouldn't use ebikes, I think they're a great alternative to cars and most other forms of transit besides human powered,  I was just talking about my personal observation as a person who's been car free for years and just bikes.

You're assuming that they would be on a pedal bike if they were not on an ebike. If they dont like pedaling and are lazy if they were not on the ebike, they'd be in a car or on the couch. Would you rather have the kids out on ebikes or at home playing video games?

Probably not too many 12 year olds driving themselves to school lol. Again I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't taking about people - kids or adults - who wouldn't or couldn't ride bikes. I was talking about people who ride bikes recreationally shifting to ebikes instead of pedal bikes. My comment was about the health and fitness levels between those 2 things. Nothing more.

Like @mm1970 I live in SoCal where a huge number of people bike recreationally and I've seen the shift from human powered to ebikes in the last year and I  don't feel the health and fitness benefits of recreational ebiking, especially when pedalling is limited, are the same as a pedal bike. Others in this thread disagree and Im fine with that. Doesn't maka me a troll in troll school though. As someone who has been riding recreationally nearly daily for the past 20 plus years, I believe I have a much higher fitness level and health then I would if I had done exactly the same on an ebikes. Just my 2 cents.

Regional differences, maybe? Here e-bikes are pretty synonymous with “old people” and “kid hauling”, but mostly “old people”. The rental bikes seem to mostly be people going to work related places downtown.

[spartana]

Regarding studded snow bike tires: they are utterly amazing, they have vastly expanded the bounds of safe winter cycling. I live in a ski town where we get 400' of snow per year and ride a fat tire ebike with studded snow tires every day in winter. There is no way in hell anyone would be doing this without TWO fat studded snow tires on an ebike. Yes you need two expensive tires, that guy that says you need one is leaving something important out of his story. And as for the ebike, I bike around 2 kids one adult and 3 backpacks in winter, u think im going to do that on a pedal bike. THe guys calling ppl out for riding an ebike vs. pedal bikes are just trolls, they practice at troll training school quite a bit to come out with stupid witty posts like those. I do it because its fun and it saves money and its more convenient (I beat out all the people parking in cars).

To me an urban cyclist of over 30 years to ride an electric cargo bike with my two young children on teh back with three pairs of skis/poles/and more from my house to an incredible ski area, park teh bike and walk 30 steps to hop on a gondola is better than a dream.

You need to re-read my post. I was not trolling. I made a simple observation that many (most) of the people (including kids in the 8 -16 range) I see now ride ebikes (and generally not pedalling)  instead of pedal bikes for "recreational" riding and I "personally" believe that much of the health and fitness benefits are less then a human powered bike. . I was not talking about commuters or people lugging around trailers full of equipment, kids or dogs. Others have said that's not the case and, while I don't agree 100%, I am fine accepting that's their take on it. FWIW I've never said people shouldn't use ebikes, I think they're a great alternative to cars and most other forms of transit besides human powered,  I was just talking about my personal observation as a person who's been car free for years and just bikes.

You're assuming that they would be on a pedal bike if they were not on an ebike. If they dont like pedaling and are lazy if they were not on the ebike, they'd be in a car or on the couch. Would you rather have the kids out on ebikes or at home playing video games?

Probably not too many 12 year olds driving themselves to school lol. Again I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't taking about people - kids or adults - who wouldn't or couldn't ride bikes. I was talking about people who ride bikes recreationally shifting to ebikes instead of pedal bikes. My comment was about the health and fitness levels between those 2 things. Nothing more.

Like @mm1970 I live in SoCal where a huge number of people bike recreationally and I've seen the shift from human powered to ebikes in the last year and I  don't feel the health and fitness benefits of recreational ebiking, especially when pedalling is limited, are the same as a pedal bike. Others in this thread disagree and Im fine with that. Doesn't maka me a troll in troll school though. As someone who has been riding recreationally nearly daily for the past 20 plus years, I believe I have a much higher fitness level and health then I would if I had done exactly the same on an ebikes. Just my 2 cents.

Regional differences, maybe? Here e-bikes are pretty synonymous with “old people” and “kid hauling”, but mostly “old people”. The rental bikes seem to mostly be people going to work related places downtown.

Probably. SoCal has good weather most of the year (even in the mountain town I relocated to recently) so riding any kind of bike is pretty common. Lots of older kids and younger teens on ebikes here, as well as tourists on rental ebikes, so not just old people. And as has been said already; if it gets then off the couch and the screen then it's great! Plus no bugging mom and dad to drive them everywhere. Lots of people of all different ages now ride ebikes instead of regular bikes here (I'm the lone hold out lol) but there is a big bike culture here for both road biking and mountain biking so still lots of people pedalling...followed by eating and napping ;-).

[Cranky]

Regarding studded snow bike tires: they are utterly amazing, they have vastly expanded the bounds of safe winter cycling. I live in a ski town where we get 400' of snow per year and ride a fat tire ebike with studded snow tires every day in winter. There is no way in hell anyone would be doing this without TWO fat studded snow tires on an ebike. Yes you need two expensive tires, that guy that says you need one is leaving something important out of his story. And as for the ebike, I bike around 2 kids one adult and 3 backpacks in winter, u think im going to do that on a pedal bike. THe guys calling ppl out for riding an ebike vs. pedal bikes are just trolls, they practice at troll training school quite a bit to come out with stupid witty posts like those. I do it because its fun and it saves money and its more convenient (I beat out all the people parking in cars).

To me an urban cyclist of over 30 years to ride an electric cargo bike with my two young children on teh back with three pairs of skis/poles/and more from my house to an incredible ski area, park teh bike and walk 30 steps to hop on a gondola is better than a dream.

You need to re-read my post. I was not trolling. I made a simple observation that many (most) of the people (including kids in the 8 -16 range) I see now ride ebikes (and generally not pedalling)  instead of pedal bikes for "recreational" riding and I "personally" believe that much of the health and fitness benefits are less then a human powered bike. . I was not talking about commuters or people lugging around trailers full of equipment, kids or dogs. Others have said that's not the case and, while I don't agree 100%, I am fine accepting that's their take on it. FWIW I've never said people shouldn't use ebikes, I think they're a great alternative to cars and most other forms of transit besides human powered,  I was just talking about my personal observation as a person who's been car free for years and just bikes.

You're assuming that they would be on a pedal bike if they were not on an ebike. If they dont like pedaling and are lazy if they were not on the ebike, they'd be in a car or on the couch. Would you rather have the kids out on ebikes or at home playing video games?

Probably not too many 12 year olds driving themselves to school lol. Again I think you misunderstood me. I wasn't taking about people - kids or adults - who wouldn't or couldn't ride bikes. I was talking about people who ride bikes recreationally shifting to ebikes instead of pedal bikes. My comment was about the health and fitness levels between those 2 things. Nothing more.

Like @mm1970 I live in SoCal where a huge number of people bike recreationally and I've seen the shift from human powered to ebikes in the last year and I  don't feel the health and fitness benefits of recreational ebiking, especially when pedalling is limited, are the same as a pedal bike. Others in this thread disagree and Im fine with that. Doesn't maka me a troll in troll school though. As someone who has been riding recreationally nearly daily for the past 20 plus years, I believe I have a much higher fitness level and health then I would if I had done exactly the same on an ebikes. Just my 2 cents.

Regional differences, maybe? Here e-bikes are pretty synonymous with “old people” and “kid hauling”, but mostly “old people”. The rental bikes seem to mostly be people going to work related places downtown.

Probably. SoCal has good weather most of the year (even in the mountain town I relocated to recently) so riding any kind of bike is pretty common. Lots of older kids and younger teens on ebikes here, as well as tourists on rental ebikes, so not just old people. And as has been said already; if it gets then off the couch and the screen then it's great! Plus no bugging mom and dad to drive them everywhere. Lots of people of all different ages now ride ebikes instead of regular bikes here (I'm the lone hold out lol) but there is a big bike culture here for both road biking and mountain biking so still lots of people pedalling...followed by eating and napping ;-).

Oh, there's a big bike culture here, and a fair amount of anti-car sentiment. Plus it's small enough that you really can go just about anywhere by bike if you put your mind to it. (I am personally deterred by the winter weather.) But it seems pretty ... serious? I never see events where people wear fancy outfits to bike in (except for Naked Biking Day, which is an un-fancy outfit, I guess.) Young people wear spandex and pedal fast!

[Fru-Gal]

The point is, ebikes are a car replacement, more than a bike replacement.

[mm1970]

The point is, ebikes are a car replacement, more than a bike replacement.

Yep.  Although...my coworker invited me (not really, he was kidding) on his weekly bike trip up a road that is roughly a 3500 ft elevation gain.  I've run it many times, but never biked it.

But you know, on my E-bike, I could totally do it.  There's no way I could do it pedaling the whole way on a regular bike, nor could the E-bike make it all the way up without pedaling.

I wouldn't want to come back down though.  E-bike too heavy, and I don't like biking downhill too fast.

[Just Joe]

The point is, ebikes are a car replacement, more than a bike replacement.

Yep.  Although...my coworker invited me (not really, he was kidding) on his weekly bike trip up a road that is roughly a 3500 ft elevation gain.  I've run it many times, but never biked it.

But you know, on my E-bike, I could totally do it.  There's no way I could do it pedaling the whole way on a regular bike, nor could the E-bike make it all the way up without pedaling.

I wouldn't want to come back down though.  E-bike too heavy, and I don't like biking downhill too fast.

Wouldn't ajustable regenerative braking be nice on an ebike? So of like an opposite throttle or one pedal driving in a BEV.

[GuitarStv]

The point is, ebikes are a car replacement, more than a bike replacement.

Yep.  Although...my coworker invited me (not really, he was kidding) on his weekly bike trip up a road that is roughly a 3500 ft elevation gain.  I've run it many times, but never biked it.

But you know, on my E-bike, I could totally do it.  There's no way I could do it pedaling the whole way on a regular bike, nor could the E-bike make it all the way up without pedaling.

I wouldn't want to come back down though.  E-bike too heavy, and I don't like biking downhill too fast.

What gearing are you running on your pedal bike?  If you can't get up a climb just change your ratios to match your fitness level.

[seattlecyclone]

The point is, ebikes are a car replacement, more than a bike replacement.

Yep.  Although...my coworker invited me (not really, he was kidding) on his weekly bike trip up a road that is roughly a 3500 ft elevation gain.  I've run it many times, but never biked it.

But you know, on my E-bike, I could totally do it.  There's no way I could do it pedaling the whole way on a regular bike, nor could the E-bike make it all the way up without pedaling.

I wouldn't want to come back down though.  E-bike too heavy, and I don't like biking downhill too fast.

What gearing are you running on your pedal bike?  If you can't get up a climb just change your ratios to match your fitness level.

Well sure, but depending on your fitness level and how steep the hill is the gear ratio that you are capable of doing could very well bring you up the hill at slower than a walking pace and that just makes you sad. Meanwhile the motor that helps you go up the hill faster than a walking pace makes you happy.

[mm1970]

The point is, ebikes are a car replacement, more than a bike replacement.

Yep.  Although...my coworker invited me (not really, he was kidding) on his weekly bike trip up a road that is roughly a 3500 ft elevation gain.  I've run it many times, but never biked it.

But you know, on my E-bike, I could totally do it.  There's no way I could do it pedaling the whole way on a regular bike, nor could the E-bike make it all the way up without pedaling.

I wouldn't want to come back down though.  E-bike too heavy, and I don't like biking downhill too fast.

What gearing are you running on your pedal bike?  If you can't get up a climb just change your ratios to match your fitness level.

My pedal bike is an old hybrid with slicks.  By old, I mean 1998 era Schwinn.  Not all of the gears work.  Like, I can adjust from 1 to 7 on the one set of gears just fine, but the 1 to 3 set doesn't really adjust anymore.  I can probably adjust it from 2 to 1, which would get me up *most* of the mountain (but some stretches I'd have to walk), but then I'd have to get off the bike to manually get it to go back to 3rd or 2nd.

TLDR, old bike, somewhat broken, bike store says it's not fixable.  But it's just fine for biking around town and to work when I have the energy for it.  (Though I still prefer the E-bike for commuting when I get around to it, because it cuts my commute time from 55 minutes to 45).