E-bikes are saving the world

[FireLane]

Here's a great article that makes me hopeful for the electric future:

https://theconversation.com/the-worlds-280-million-electric-bikes-and-mopeds-are-cutting-demand-for-oil-far-more-than-electric-cars-213870

There are over 20 million electric vehicles already on the world's roads. They're less polluting than ICE cars, but they still require lots of energy and materials to construct, and they're expensive to buy upfront.

However, there are also 280 million electric bikes, mopeds and scooters already on the road. They're cheaper to buy and cheaper to run. For short trips (which is most trips), or in crowded, traffic-clogged cities, they beat cars hands down:

That’s because these forms of transport – collectively known as electric micromobility – are cheaper to buy and run.

But it’s more than that – they are actually displacing four times as much demand for oil as all the world’s electric cars at present, due to their staggering uptake in China and other nations where mopeds are a common form of transport.

...Their sheer popularity is already cutting demand for oil by a million barrels of oil a day – about 1% of the world’s total oil demand, according to estimates by Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

1% of the world's total oil consumption has already been eliminated, just by people switching to e-bikes! That's huge!

[spartana]

Just think what kind of impact switching from ebikes to human powered bikes would have! I think ebikes are great for replacing cars but sadly I now see so many young kids (and adults) using ebikes instead of peddling/riding real bikes (even for recreation)  that I believe it may contribute to a long term unhealthy lifestyle for the next generation. I guess sitting on your butt on your ebike is better then sitting in your Moms basement playing video games ;-). 

[Louise]

I have an ebike. I much prefer it over my pedal bike. It's so much more fun and makes carrying things home easy. It's a blast. I'll ride all around the city. My battery runs out of power before I get bored.

You still get some exercise too on the lower assist levels.

[seattlecyclone]

Just think what kind of impact switching from ebikes to human powered bikes would have! I think ebikes are great for replacing cars but sadly I now see so many young kids (and adults) using ebikes instead of peddling/riding real bikes (even for recreation)  that I believe it may contribute to a long term unhealthy lifestyle for the next generation. I guess sitting on your butt on your ebike is better then sitting in your Moms basement playing video games ;-). 

I might be outing myself as a bad Mustachian here, but I was never a "bike person." I recognize the health and environmental benefits of biking, and definitely prefer living in a less car-oriented place where biking is actually a reasonable mode of transport, but the idea that I should have to start doing some medium-intensity exercise just to get from Point A to Point B was a huge mental block for me. I'd walk all over the neighborhood, use transit a lot, but biking? Almost never.

A couple of years ago I got an electric kick scooter and I use that thing all the time! Probably something like 90% of my solo trips under three miles are done by scooter now. I still have to do some exercise because the motor in my scooter isn't strong enough to get me up many of Seattle's hills all on its own, but it's an amount of exertion that seems "worth it" for the journey in a way that manually biking up that same hill just didn't.

So, sure, if you could take all the people who like electric bikes and convince them to use a manual bike exactly as often as they would use the electric one, that would indeed be better for those folks' health. I'm someone who would never do that in a million years, and I'm far from the only one.

[Chris Pascale]

That 1% number is no joke.

[Arbitrage]

Beyond the direct numbers are the potential indirect impacts, which theoretically would be actually world-saving.  Switching from a car-based society to one primarily for people - transit, walking, and micromobility - would free up such an abundance of capital and land, in addition to the various other benefits (health, annual 40k deaths and 2.5 million hospitalizations mitigated, noise/smog/particulate pollution, urban heat island reduction, etc.)

Never (in our lifetimes) going to happen in this country writ large, but I'll still fight for it locally where changes are possible.

[dividendman]

Now we just need a super-frugal one to justify the purchase!

[spartana]

Just think what kind of impact switching from ebikes to human powered bikes would have! I think ebikes are great for replacing cars but sadly I now see so many young kids (and adults) using ebikes instead of peddling/riding real bikes (even for recreation)  that I believe it may contribute to a long term unhealthy lifestyle for the next generation. I guess sitting on your butt on your ebike is better then sitting in your Moms basement playing video games ;-). 

I might be outing myself as a bad Mustachian here, but I was never a "bike person." I recognize the health and environmental benefits of biking, and definitely prefer living in a less car-oriented place where biking is actually a reasonable mode of transport, but the idea that I should have to start doing some medium-intensity exercise just to get from Point A to Point B was a huge mental block for me. I'd walk all over the neighborhood, use transit a lot, but biking? Almost never.

A couple of years ago I got an electric kick scooter and I use that thing all the time! Probably something like 90% of my solo trips under three miles are done by scooter now. I still have to do some exercise because the motor in my scooter isn't strong enough to get me up many of Seattle's hills all on its own, but it's an amount of exertion that seems "worth it" for the journey in a way that manually biking up that same hill just didn't.

So, sure, if you could take all the people who like electric bikes and convince them to use a manual bike exactly as often as they would use the electric one, that would indeed be better for those folks' health. I'm someone who would never do that in a million years, and I'm far from the only one.

Don't get me wrong I think ebikes are great. Especially for commuting and doing chores like lugging stuff around and allowing those who cant ride to be able to get outdoors. My only pet peeve it when I see young healthy children and non-disabled or not elderly adults use them for recreation rather than peddle bikes (or skateboards and scooters).  It's my personal love/hate relationship with ebikes. Or maybe it's just jealously when I'm cranking my old beater hardtail mtb uphill in a stiff headwind and a chubby 15 year old or fat middle aged dude passes me on their ebikes while drinking a Big Gulp or beer  lol!

ETA: I've been without a vehicle for the past 4 years and mostly ride my bike so am a bit biased. Now I have an older used car but still rather ride my bike.

[scottnews]

Every once in a while there is a study saying ebikes have less carbon impact than pedal bikes (diet has a big impact)
https://www.bikeradar.com/features/long-reads/cycling-environmental-impact/


                                                 Conventional bicycle     Electric bicycle
Manufacturing emissions (g/km)               5                      7
Food-related emissions (g/km)                16                     6.3
Electricity emissions (g/km)                      0                     1.5
Total (g/km)                                           21                    14.8

[Metalcat]

I miss being able to use an e-bike :( I absolutely loved mine.

[Dave1442397]

I want a Red Bull scooter. I want one, but I'm not buying one :)

https://rbr-escooter.com/products/rbs-01-carbon-edition

[GuitarStv]

Every once in a while there is a study saying ebikes have less carbon impact than pedal bikes (diet has a big impact)
https://www.bikeradar.com/features/long-reads/cycling-environmental-impact/


                                                 Conventional bicycle     Electric bicycle
Manufacturing emissions (g/km)               5                      7
Food-related emissions (g/km)                16                     6.3
Electricity emissions (g/km)                      0                     1.5
Total (g/km)                                           21                    14.8

What I got from that article is . . . you're probably fine if you eat potatoes rather than steak to fuel your cycling.  :P

[Arbitrage]

Every once in a while there is a study saying ebikes have less carbon impact than pedal bikes (diet has a big impact)
https://www.bikeradar.com/features/long-reads/cycling-environmental-impact/


                                                 Conventional bicycle     Electric bicycle
Manufacturing emissions (g/km)               5                      7
Food-related emissions (g/km)                16                     6.3
Electricity emissions (g/km)                      0                     1.5
Total (g/km)                                           21                    14.8

What I got from that article is . . . you're probably fine if you eat potatoes rather than steak to fuel your cycling.  :P

It also seems to assume that you are not exercising at all if you have the e-bike, and the health implications of that also have their own climate implications.

I did my own calculations, including exercise load while riding my e-bike, using numbers and observations from a regular commute I was doing with my e-bike.  I ate an extra snack/meal on those commute days, so I based the emissions on that meal.  E-bike did come out ahead, but of course it does depend pretty heavily on what you eat.  A vegan cyclist will beat the e-biker. 

Either way, it's all "in the noise" when comparing to an auto, except for the extreme non-realistic cases such as a cyclist who eats nothing but lamb and beef.  Either variant is 10-25 times better than an electric car, with the low end being a cyclist with a really carbon-intensive diet.

[spartana]

Every once in a while there is a study saying ebikes have less carbon impact than pedal bikes (diet has a big impact)
https://www.bikeradar.com/features/long-reads/cycling-environmental-impact/


                                                 Conventional bicycle     Electric bicycle
Manufacturing emissions (g/km)               5                      7
Food-related emissions (g/km)                16                     6.3
Electricity emissions (g/km)                      0                     1.5
Total (g/km)                                           21                    14.8

What I got from that article is . . . you're probably fine if you eat potatoes rather than steak to fuel your cycling.  :P

Yeah. As non-meat eater I'm not sure how impactful my mostly veggie diet would have on my carbon output.  And then there's the lithium battery manufacturing/disposal problem and the fires.

[Jakestersquat]

I rode my traditional bike a regular amount. But since I’ve gotten an e bike my net riding has probably increased 5 fold. My ebike allows me to make a 20 mile commute. I can do it without the assist but what a time saver it is. A. Argo e bike convinced my wife we could go down to a 1 car family. We haul all 5 of our kids between our cargo bike, co pilot bike and having the kids ride their own. I’m all for e bikes.

[lutorm]

I had a hard time imagining how to survive daily life with a bicycle now that we have kids, but recently I learned about electric cargo bikes like the https://urbanarrow.com/. This made me seriously wonder whether we could cut our local car use to zero, but they're damn expensive and I'm not sure how to test how it would work without buying one.

With 6" of fresh snow outside currently I'm also not sure how well they would work.

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

Just think what kind of impact switching from ebikes to human powered bikes would have! I think ebikes are great for replacing cars but sadly I now see so many young kids (and adults) using ebikes instead of peddling/riding real bikes (even for recreation)  that I believe it may contribute to a long term unhealthy lifestyle for the next generation. I guess sitting on your butt on your ebike is better then sitting in your Moms basement playing video games ;-). 

I might be outing myself as a bad Mustachian here, but I was never a "bike person." I recognize the health and environmental benefits of biking, and definitely prefer living in a less car-oriented place where biking is actually a reasonable mode of transport, but the idea that I should have to start doing some medium-intensity exercise just to get from Point A to Point B was a huge mental block for me. I'd walk all over the neighborhood, use transit a lot, but biking? Almost never.

A couple of years ago I got an electric kick scooter and I use that thing all the time! Probably something like 90% of my solo trips under three miles are done by scooter now. I still have to do some exercise because the motor in my scooter isn't strong enough to get me up many of Seattle's hills all on its own, but it's an amount of exertion that seems "worth it" for the journey in a way that manually biking up that same hill just didn't.

So, sure, if you could take all the people who like electric bikes and convince them to use a manual bike exactly as often as they would use the electric one, that would indeed be better for those folks' health. I'm someone who would never do that in a million years, and I'm far from the only one.

Don't get me wrong I think ebikes are great. Especially for commuting and doing chores like lugging stuff around and allowing those who cant ride to be able to get outdoors. My only pet peeve it when I see young healthy children and non-disabled or not elderly adults use them for recreation rather than peddle bikes (or skateboards and scooters).  It's my personal love/hate relationship with ebikes. Or maybe it's just jealously when I'm cranking my old beater hardtail mtb uphill in a stiff headwind and a chubby 15 year old or fat middle aged dude passes me on their ebikes while drinking a Big Gulp or beer  lol!

ETA: I've been without a vehicle for the past 4 years and mostly ride my bike so am a bit biased. Now I have an older used car but still rather ride my bike.

Yeahhh not a great look. I mean, I get it. We all have our Feelings. But how do you know it's just for recreation? Or where they are going/how far/what invisible disabilities, injuries or chronic conditions they have?

Yep, my fatness is one reason I use an ebike instead of a people-powered bike.*  I gained the fertility 15 and the quarantine 15 and those extra pounds made the difference between huffing up the hill and having to get off and walk, and one wants to arrive at work a little fresher, know what I'm saying?

*I am very cold riding my ebike in the winter and I was thinking of using my regular bike sometimes in the winter for getting to work- it's a nonstarter for baby hauling for a variety of reasons- but then it was totalled in an accident and I don't know if it's worth replacing at the moment. (My 11 yo was hit my a car while riding it- his bike had a flat tire- but fortunately he only sprained his ankle.)

I had a hard time imagining how to survive daily life with a bicycle now that we have kids, but recently I learned about electric cargo bikes like the https://urbanarrow.com/. This made me seriously wonder whether we could cut our local car use to zero, but they're damn expensive and I'm not sure how to test how it would work without buying one.

With 6" of fresh snow outside currently I'm also not sure how well they would work.

I think there are cheaper versions! Or you could just pull a trailer if you have 2 kids. The trailer keeps them cozy. I do worry about my toddler getting cold in her seat (although her baby balaclava is freakin' adorable).

[Chris Pascale]

I want a Red Bull scooter. I want one, but I'm not buying one :)

https://rbr-escooter.com/products/rbs-01-carbon-edition

You're losing money by not having one!

[spartana]

Just think what kind of impact switching from ebikes to human powered bikes would have! I think ebikes are great for replacing cars but sadly I now see so many young kids (and adults) using ebikes instead of peddling/riding real bikes (even for recreation)  that I believe it may contribute to a long term unhealthy lifestyle for the next generation. I guess sitting on your butt on your ebike is better then sitting in your Moms basement playing video games ;-). 

I might be outing myself as a bad Mustachian here, but I was never a "bike person." I recognize the health and environmental benefits of biking, and definitely prefer living in a less car-oriented place where biking is actually a reasonable mode of transport, but the idea that I should have to start doing some medium-intensity exercise just to get from Point A to Point B was a huge mental block for me. I'd walk all over the neighborhood, use transit a lot, but biking? Almost never.

A couple of years ago I got an electric kick scooter and I use that thing all the time! Probably something like 90% of my solo trips under three miles are done by scooter now. I still have to do some exercise because the motor in my scooter isn't strong enough to get me up many of Seattle's hills all on its own, but it's an amount of exertion that seems "worth it" for the journey in a way that manually biking up that same hill just didn't.

So, sure, if you could take all the people who like electric bikes and convince them to use a manual bike exactly as often as they would use the electric one, that would indeed be better for those folks' health. I'm someone who would never do that in a million years, and I'm far from the only one.

Don't get me wrong I think ebikes are great. Especially for commuting and doing chores like lugging stuff around and allowing those who cant ride to be able to get outdoors. My only pet peeve it when I see young healthy children and non-disabled or not elderly adults use them for recreation rather than peddle bikes (or skateboards and scooters).  It's my personal love/hate relationship with ebikes. Or maybe it's just jealously when I'm cranking my old beater hardtail mtb uphill in a stiff headwind and a chubby 15 year old or fat middle aged dude passes me on their ebikes while drinking a Big Gulp or beer  lol!

ETA: I've been without a vehicle for the past 4 years and mostly ride my bike so am a bit biased. Now I have an older used car but still rather ride my bike.

Yeahhh not a great look. I mean, I get it. We all have our Feelings. But how do you know it's just for recreation? Or where they are going/how far/what invisible disabilities, injuries or chronic conditions they have?

Yep, my fatness is one reason I use an ebike instead of a people-powered bike.*  I gained the fertility 15 and the quarantine 15 and those extra pounds made the difference between huffing up the hill and having to get off and walk, and one wants to arrive at work a little fresher, know what I'm saying?

*I am very cold riding my ebike in the winter and I was thinking of using my regular bike sometimes in the winter for getting to work- it's a nonstarter for baby hauling for a variety of reasons- but then it was totalled in an accident and I don't know if it's worth replacing at the moment. (My 11 yo was hit my a car while riding it- his bike had a flat tire- but fortunately he only sprained his ankle.)

I had a hard time imagining how to survive daily life with a bicycle now that we have kids, but recently I learned about electric cargo bikes like the https://urbanarrow.com/. This made me seriously wonder whether we could cut our local car use to zero, but they're damn expensive and I'm not sure how to test how it would work without buying one.

With 6" of fresh snow outside currently I'm also not sure how well they would work.

I think there are cheaper versions! Or you could just pull a trailer if you have 2 kids. The trailer keeps them cozy. I do worry about my toddler getting cold in her seat (although her baby balaclava is freakin' adorable).

You're right I generally don't know where they are going or why they are choosing to ride an e-bike unless Im riding with them. But I've lived in a coastal town in Southern Calif for 20 or so years and we have paved off-road bike paths for recreational riding so have seen the shift from human powered bikes to ebikes over the last year in what appears to be recreational riding - especially by children and teens. Adults too. It's a little sad for me to see the shift but I do understand the appeal to use it even if you are just riding a few miles on a flat paved bike path to get outdoors. My sister (who rides but doesn't have an ebike) has been bugging me to get an ebike the past 4 years since I went carless but I stubbornly refused. For now...

[LD_TAndK]

The e-bike / acoustic bike division reminds me of this meme.

I'm also guilty of looking down my nose at e-bikes but the reality is if we can get more people e-biking it makes acoustic biking better as well (critical mass cycling theory). It's win-win and better for the environment

[scottnews]

I had a hard time imagining how to survive daily life with a bicycle now that we have kids, but recently I learned about electric cargo bikes like the https://urbanarrow.com/. This made me seriously wonder whether we could cut our local car use to zero, but they're damn expensive and I'm not sure how to test how it would work without buying one.

With 6" of fresh snow outside currently I'm also not sure how well they would work.

Studded tires make a huge difference.   Know anyone with a different cargo bike you could try, like a long tail?  Those are usually cheaper.

It can be done with bike alone, but you could mix in taxi service once in a while if conditions don't look good.

The chemicals here are tough on a winter bike.    4 winters/chemicals are taking a tole on my bike's axels.   I'm hoping to get 7 years of use before any major overhaul.  I've had to replace crank bearings and freewheel so far.

NJB video of people in Oulu winter biking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU

[Arbitrage]

You're right I generally don't know where they are going or why they are choosing to ride an e-bike unless Im riding with them. But I've lived in a coastal town in Southern Calif for 20 or so years and we have paved off-road bike paths for recreational riding so have seen the shift from human powered bikes to ebikes over the last year in what appears to be recreational riding - especially by children and teens. Adults too. It's a little sad for me to see the shift but I do understand the appeal to use it even if you are just riding a few miles on a flat paved bike path to get outdoors. My sister (who rides but doesn't have an ebike) has been bugging me to get an ebike the past 4 years since I went carless but I stubbornly refused. For now...

We're all entitled to our opinions, but every study that's attempted to look into this has concluded that people end up getting more exercise once they get an e-bike, not less.  Obviously, exercise per mile and per minute is lower on an e-bike, but people just use them more.

There will be exceptions and anecdotes otherwise, but by and large they're a health benefit, not a detriment.  I say this as a grumbling mountain biker who gets annoyed at the proliferation of people who aren't 'earning their descents' - the e-bikers are just getting out there a lot more than they used to, and you definitely still get plenty of exercise on an e-bike as long as you're not throttling.  Not the lung-busting anaerobic type, but certainly calorie burning and heart pumping. 

[FINate]

Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good. More people riding any kind of bike is fantastic, especially if these replace car trips. A small bike instead of 3000 lbs of metal adding to traffic. Over time the increased number of bikers will improve biking infrastructure.

I love seeing these folks ride by my house on their electric cargo bike most days: https://www.boisestatepublicradio.org/environment/2023-11-28/boise-family-ebikes-climate-change

And I still get a ton of use out of my long-tail e-bike even though the kids are old enough that they're too embarrassed to ride on the back and instead walk/bike everywhere on their own. I use it for most trips in town: grocery shopping, hanging out with friends, parks, fishing. My wife even rides with me on dates.

[lutorm]

I had a hard time imagining how to survive daily life with a bicycle now that we have kids, but recently I learned about electric cargo bikes like the https://urbanarrow.com/. This made me seriously wonder whether we could cut our local car use to zero, but they're damn expensive and I'm not sure how to test how it would work without buying one.

With 6" of fresh snow outside currently I'm also not sure how well they would work.

Studded tires make a huge difference.   Know anyone with a different cargo bike you could try, like a long tail?  Those are usually cheaper.

It can be done with bike alone, but you could mix in taxi service once in a while if conditions don't look good.

The chemicals here are tough on a winter bike.    4 winters/chemicals are taking a tole on my bike's axels.   I'm hoping to get 7 years of use before any major overhaul.  I've had to replace crank bearings and freewheel so far.

NJB video of people in Oulu winter biking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU

That video is great, unfortunately the local snow removal, while pretty good, is not quite up to thiose standards. But I might be getting a biased view of this since apparently this is the most snow they've had here for 50 years -- a standard year might be more conducive to biking.

At least they don't salt the bike paths here, it's plow and sand only, so the salt is only an issue if you're going on the road.

As for the cargo bikes, yeah long tails seem cheaper but I'm not so excited about the high center of gravity. I've biked with full camping gear on the back and it was pretty unstable. I'm not sure about putting the kids that high, especially in winter conditions.

I guess there are also 3-wheel versions, maybe I should check those out, too.

[Cranky]

My dh hadn’t ridden a bike of any kind for 30 years at least, and buying an ebike last year has turned him into a cycling fanatic. Lol

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

@lutorm - I am not a strong biker but I have adjusted well to having the bike seat. I do only tote one kiddo but I know another lady who is not the strongest biker who has 2 bigger ones back there. But, like I said- the cold is a concern for sure and we haven't tried it in snow yet. I have a RadRunner which has smaller, wider wheels.

I think what was upsetting to me about the earlier comments was that they boiled down to "ugh, fat people on ebikes." And I AM a fat person on an ebike. That's really it.

[spartana]

@lutorm - I am not a strong biker but I have adjusted well to having the bike seat. I do only tote one kiddo but I know another lady who is not the strongest biker who has 2 bigger ones back there. But, like I said- the cold is a concern for sure and we haven't tried it in snow yet. I have a RadRunner which has smaller, wider wheels.

I think what was upsetting to me about the earlier comments was that they boiled down to "ugh, fat people on ebikes." And I AM a fat person on an ebike. That's really it.

I apologize for that. I really was just kidding. Again I don't have issues with ebike (or scooters etc) I was just pointing out my personal pet peeve about so many young healthy people switching from bikes to ebikes for recreational riding and it being less healthy for those particular kids and adults. Maybe, as has been pointed out here by several posters, it will lead to more biking and even a reversal to human powered bikes eventually. Again sorry for my bad joke.

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

@lutorm - I am not a strong biker but I have adjusted well to having the bike seat. I do only tote one kiddo but I know another lady who is not the strongest biker who has 2 bigger ones back there. But, like I said- the cold is a concern for sure and we haven't tried it in snow yet. I have a RadRunner which has smaller, wider wheels.

I think what was upsetting to me about the earlier comments was that they boiled down to "ugh, fat people on ebikes." And I AM a fat person on an ebike. That's really it.

I apologize for that. I really was just kidding. Again I don't have issues with ebike (or scooters etc) I was just pointing out my personal pet peeve about so many young healthy people switching from bikes to ebikes for recreational riding and it being less healthy for those particular kids and adults. Maybe, as has been pointed out here by several posters, it will lead to more biking and even a reversal to human powered bikes eventually. Again sorry for my bad joke.

I appreciate the apology! We all have our Things.

I'm actually more concerned about the safety of young people on ebikes, especially after my 11yo got hit by a car on his regular bike. It seems like there's a lot of potential for things to go wrong. I haven't let my boys try it out yet.

During flag football season my 12yo had a daily bike ride that was 7 miles total and he did it on his regular bike!

[AnotherEngineer]

I had a hard time imagining how to survive daily life with a bicycle now that we have kids, but recently I learned about electric cargo bikes like the https://urbanarrow.com/. This made me seriously wonder whether we could cut our local car use to zero, but they're damn expensive and I'm not sure how to test how it would work without buying one.

With 6" of fresh snow outside currently I'm also not sure how well they would work.

Studded tires make a huge difference.   Know anyone with a different cargo bike you could try, like a long tail?  Those are usually cheaper.

It can be done with bike alone, but you could mix in taxi service once in a while if conditions don't look good.

The chemicals here are tough on a winter bike.    4 winters/chemicals are taking a tole on my bike's axels.   I'm hoping to get 7 years of use before any major overhaul.  I've had to replace crank bearings and freewheel so far.

NJB video of people in Oulu winter biking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU

That video is great, unfortunately the local snow removal, while pretty good, is not quite up to thiose standards. But I might be getting a biased view of this since apparently this is the most snow they've had here for 50 years -- a standard year might be more conducive to biking.

At least they don't salt the bike paths here, it's plow and sand only, so the salt is only an issue if you're going on the road.

As for the cargo bikes, yeah long tails seem cheaper but I'm not so excited about the high center of gravity. I've biked with full camping gear on the back and it was pretty unstable. I'm not sure about putting the kids that high, especially in winter conditions.

I guess there are also 3-wheel versions, maybe I should check those out, too.

@scottnews said most of what I came to say. Minnesotan...figures ;)

With three kids, we have used all the cargo, trailer, trailer bike, front seat and rear seat options. The box bike/bakfiets like the Urban Arrow are magic and legit car replacements, but mostly for that window where your kids fit in the box. Front seats are awesome for kids <4 as you can interact, just get a sturdy double kickstand. Rear seats are okay and easier to park than trailers. Trailers are probably best in snow and they keep the kids warmest. We would sometimes swap between skis and wheels on a trip in our Chariot (now Thule). Not that biking with kids in a very snowy place is very easy or reliable without excellent plowing. We drove a lot of our short family trips in Alaska winter or took the bus.

Also, e-bikes can be useful when carrying kids and on cargo bikes, but stop being using when your kids are on their own bikes.

[seattlecyclone]

I'm actually more concerned about the safety of young people on ebikes, especially after my 11yo got hit by a car on his regular bike. It seems like there's a lot of potential for things to go wrong. I haven't let my boys try it out yet.

Yeah this is a huge issue. Seattle (where I live) is generally considered a much more bike-friendly place than the US average, but even here our bike infrastructure leaves a lot to be desired. Bike lanes exist but they do not form a contiguous network across the city and often disappear right as you're about to hit the space-constrained chokepoints where dedicated space would be most useful. Even in a bike lane you have to look over your shoulder at every little intersection to make sure no car driver is about to cut you off turning right, you often have to swerve into the car lane because someone thought it would be okay to park in the bike lane "because it's just for a minute," the list goes on. When I'm on my scooter I need to be at least twice as attentive to keep myself safe as I do when I'm driving. If my kids aren't old enough to be trusted with a driver's license how then could I expect them to be safe on a bike in this town?

[ca-rn]

Here's a great article that makes me hopeful for the electric future:

https://theconversation.com/the-worlds-280-million-electric-bikes-and-mopeds-are-cutting-demand-for-oil-far-more-than-electric-cars-213870

There are over 20 million electric vehicles already on the world's roads. They're less polluting than ICE cars, but they still require lots of energy and materials to construct, and they're expensive to buy upfront.

However, there are also 280 million electric bikes, mopeds and scooters already on the road. They're cheaper to buy and cheaper to run. For short trips (which is most trips), or in crowded, traffic-clogged cities, they beat cars hands down:

That’s because these forms of transport – collectively known as electric micromobility – are cheaper to buy and run.

But it’s more than that – they are actually displacing four times as much demand for oil as all the world’s electric cars at present, due to their staggering uptake in China and other nations where mopeds are a common form of transport.

...Their sheer popularity is already cutting demand for oil by a million barrels of oil a day – about 1% of the world’s total oil demand, according to estimates by Bloomberg New Energy Finance.

1% of the world's total oil consumption has already been eliminated, just by people switching to e-bikes! That's huge!

I have a regular pedal bike and recently got a ecargo bike.  I read alot about how people ride their ebikes more than their regular bike or just ride more b/c of the e assist but I haven't experienced that yet.

My ebike is a mid drive w/gears, no throttle.  Though its "nimble" and "compact" for a ecargo bike, its still heavier/harder to maneuver and less nimble than my regular bike though I am still in the modification/fitting process.

I ride my ebike for local trips that I would do by car- weekly grocery shopping, home depot, transporting bulky items but for quick trips w/front panniers and commuting- I ride my pedal bike- its smaller/easier to move in/out of house/steps and lighter/nimble overall.

It maybe b/c there isn't safe protected bike lanes where I live.  I enjoy riding when I'm out doing errands/commuting but am aware how dangerous it can be w/distracted(all) drivers.

I do love the superhuman leg power it gives me! And the ecargo bike has let me take the next step- Sell my car to live car free! 

[mizzourah2006]

I have a light e-mtb for when I ride alone. It provides me the opportunity to more easily session downhills and get some more miles in in a shorter period of time, but the only time I ever use it is on the mountain bike trails. The light e-mtbs actually aren't much heavier than standard bikes. My standard mountain bike weighs 34 pounds and my e-mtb (which has a beefier fork) weighs 41 pounds.

If I commute to work or go for a greenway ride I always use my standard gravel bike.

[innkeeper77]

Just think what kind of impact switching from ebikes to human powered bikes would have! I think ebikes are great for replacing cars but sadly I now see so many young kids (and adults) using ebikes instead of peddling/riding real bikes (even for recreation)  that I believe it may contribute to a long term unhealthy lifestyle for the next generation. I guess sitting on your butt on your ebike is better then sitting in your Moms basement playing video games ;-).

I had a period of time when I was commuting 38 miles per day on a bike, and had an ebike at the time to let that happen. It allowed me to keep doing it even through snow in the (Colorado front range) winter, to maintain a high enough speed to have more time with my family, and I was EXTREMELY fit and healthy from it- I had to significantly increase my intake calories! Of course, that was a pedal assist ebike, so even on full power I still had to put in a decent amount myself.

I currently ride a "tradition" non electric longtail, but my max range and speed on that thing is significantly lower. It's great for taking the kid to school!

[spartana]

Just think what kind of impact switching from ebikes to human powered bikes would have! I think ebikes are great for replacing cars but sadly I now see so many young kids (and adults) using ebikes instead of peddling/riding real bikes (even for recreation)  that I believe it may contribute to a long term unhealthy lifestyle for the next generation. I guess sitting on your butt on your ebike is better then sitting in your Moms basement playing video games ;-).

I had a period of time when I was commuting 38 miles per day on a bike, and had an ebike at the time to let that happen. It allowed me to keep doing it even through snow in the (Colorado front range) winter, to maintain a high enough speed to have more time with my family, and I was EXTREMELY fit and healthy from it- I had to significantly increase my intake calories! Of course, that was a pedal assist ebike, so even on full power I still had to put in a decent amount myself.

I currently ride a "tradition" non electric longtail, but my max range and speed on that thing is significantly lower. It's great for taking the kid to school!

Like I said above I'll acknowledge that I'm apparently wrong and most feel that ebikes will lead to more active lifestyles for most people who ride recreationally and not just commuters. I don't ride ebikes myself, and most people I see riding including young kids, don't appear to be pedalling but rather riding them like motorcycles, so that's my initial though when I see groups of kids riding ebikes. But I will humbly accept I just may be wrong.

[GuitarStv]

Just think what kind of impact switching from ebikes to human powered bikes would have! I think ebikes are great for replacing cars but sadly I now see so many young kids (and adults) using ebikes instead of peddling/riding real bikes (even for recreation)  that I believe it may contribute to a long term unhealthy lifestyle for the next generation. I guess sitting on your butt on your ebike is better then sitting in your Moms basement playing video games ;-).

I had a period of time when I was commuting 38 miles per day on a bike, and had an ebike at the time to let that happen. It allowed me to keep doing it even through snow in the (Colorado front range) winter, to maintain a high enough speed to have more time with my family, and I was EXTREMELY fit and healthy from it- I had to significantly increase my intake calories! Of course, that was a pedal assist ebike, so even on full power I still had to put in a decent amount myself.

I currently ride a "tradition" non electric longtail, but my max range and speed on that thing is significantly lower. It's great for taking the kid to school!

Like I said above I'll acknowledge that I'm apparently wrong and most feel that ebikes will lead to more active lifestyles for most people who ride recreationally and not just commuters. I don't ride ebikes myself, and most people I see riding including young kids, don't appear to be pedalling but rather riding them like motorcycles, so that's my initial though when I see groups of kids riding ebikes. But I will humbly accept I just may be wrong.

Nah.  There are a wide variety of e-bikes.  The ones that look like regular bicycles, I can buy the idea that people are pedaling them.  But there are plenty of what I call 'electric motorcycles' that are also classified as e-bikes.  You never have to push down with a foot while riding along with your motorcycle helmet on them, and they lock the useless vestigial pedals in position conveniently out of the way so you don't bump into one even by accident.

I've been forced off the sidewalk several times by these e-bikes honking their horn loudly behind me while I'm walking the dog.

e-bike:


e-bike:


e-bike:



Ain't nobody exercising on them.

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

@GuitarStv, unfortunately, in my experience you apparently only get ticketed for sidewalk riding if you get hit by a car first, by which time you've already learned your lesson! Or is sidewalk riding legal where you are?

I haven't seen that kind of bike around here. We have an ebike rebate program in CO that I am pretty sure those would not qualify for.

My bike does have a throttle but I mostly use it to get up to speed from a stop. (It only works while you're holding it.)

[spartana]

Most people in my old hood (a large Vietnamese community) ride regular pedal-able ebikes on sidewalks going the wrong dircection. Very fast too. Especially the older grannies and grandpa's (many who use to bike but now ebike) but kids too. Very few bike lanes and crazy SoCal traffic on the streets. The kids who ride their ebikes to school thru the park by my house where I ran and walked my dogs never pedal either.  Maybe it me but I felt the same when all the little kid pedal cars went electric. Pedal your dream car Barbie! Lol.

Lots of off road bike trails - both paved and unpaved - are starting to ban ebikes and pedal.assist bikes because of the safety hazards to hikers, walkers, dogs, wildlife  and slower bike riders, as well as their huge numbers on the paths now.  That doesn't include streets of course just parks, beaches and some trails.

[Jakestersquat]

I want a Red Bull scooter. I want one, but I'm not buying one :)

https://rbr-escooter.com/products/rbs-01-carbon-edition

Boy did you send me down a rabbit hole looking at these hyper scooters. I may be posting in the “what are you lusting” thread haha

[seattlecyclone]

I want a Red Bull scooter. I want one, but I'm not buying one :)

https://rbr-escooter.com/products/rbs-01-carbon-edition

Boy did you send me down a rabbit hole looking at these hyper scooters. I may be posting in the “what are you lusting” thread haha

Looking at that Red Bull scooter...I can tell you from experience that the lack of a rear fender means that any water you drive over in that thing will be deposited directly onto the back of your legs. Hope it's a nice day when you use it!

[Cranky]

Just think what kind of impact switching from ebikes to human powered bikes would have! I think ebikes are great for replacing cars but sadly I now see so many young kids (and adults) using ebikes instead of peddling/riding real bikes (even for recreation)  that I believe it may contribute to a long term unhealthy lifestyle for the next generation. I guess sitting on your butt on your ebike is better then sitting in your Moms basement playing video games ;-).

I had a period of time when I was commuting 38 miles per day on a bike, and had an ebike at the time to let that happen. It allowed me to keep doing it even through snow in the (Colorado front range) winter, to maintain a high enough speed to have more time with my family, and I was EXTREMELY fit and healthy from it- I had to significantly increase my intake calories! Of course, that was a pedal assist ebike, so even on full power I still had to put in a decent amount myself.

I currently ride a "tradition" non electric longtail, but my max range and speed on that thing is significantly lower. It's great for taking the kid to school!

Like I said above I'll acknowledge that I'm apparently wrong and most feel that ebikes will lead to more active lifestyles for most people who ride recreationally and not just commuters. I don't ride ebikes myself, and most people I see riding including young kids, don't appear to be pedalling but rather riding them like motorcycles, so that's my initial though when I see groups of kids riding ebikes. But I will humbly accept I just may be wrong.

Nah.  There are a wide variety of e-bikes.  The ones that look like regular bicycles, I can buy the idea that people are pedaling them.  But there are plenty of what I call 'electric motorcycles' that are also classified as e-bikes.  You never have to push down with a foot while riding along with your motorcycle helmet on them, and they lock the useless vestigial pedals in position conveniently out of the way so you don't bump into one even by accident.

I've been forced off the sidewalk several times by these e-bikes honking their horn loudly behind me while I'm walking the dog.

e-bike:


e-bike:


e-bike:



Ain't nobody exercising on them.

I think those would be classified as scooters here. They have to be licensed and can’t be on the bike paths - you have to have pedals for that. I’ve also never seen a child with an ebike (barring the kids being carried on parents’ bikes.)

I recently looked it up and bikes are legal on sidewalks here except in business areas where it’s just building/sidewalk/street. This is good because I’d rather ride on the sidewalk on areas where the bike lane isn’t well separated from the car traffic.

[vand]

Those "bikes" look like they do have pedals and a self-propulsion mechanism, just hidden beneath all the bodywork designed for it to look more scooter like.

But I agree, the line between bike/scooter is more blurred than before.

I'm a bit skeptical about some of these claims about the greeness of ebikes and scooters tbh.  Here in London we have fleets of e-bike/scooter schemes than can't be profitable.  The get vandalised and stolen, and then the bikes can get left anyway on the sidewalk which sorta pisses everyone off.  They pay some poor sod minimum wages to drive around the city overnight and pick them all up and return them to their parking stations.  It's not a sustainable business model.

[GuitarStv]

Those "bikes" look like they do have pedals and a self-propulsion mechanism, just hidden beneath all the bodywork designed for it to look more scooter like.

Yep.  These are all classified as electric bicycles, not scooters (even though they are clearly mopeds) . . . if you look carefully they all have pedals.  Even though they're clearly designed to never be pedalled.  It's how they get around our e-bike laws I guess.

[YK-Phil]

With 6" of fresh snow outside currently I'm also not sure how well they would work.

A rear-studded tire makes a huge difference when biking in the snow or on ice, and surprisingly, a front-studded tire does not improve anything. For about ten years of my life when I lived and worked in Yellowknife -one of the coldest places in Canada, I commuted on an old Trek mountain bike I got for $60. With a rear-studded tire and properly onion-layered winter gear, I could ride anywhere, including a stretch of about 2 km on a frozen lake. The coldest temperature I rode in was -47C -I almost decided to go back to bed that morning after I checked the thermometer, but it was a clear windless day and the ride was fine. But I remember that one day when the temperature was only -30 C, but with winds of 30 km/h, and I had to stop to warm up every 10 minutes.

I miss the crackling sound of the steel studs on the ice.

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

Those "bikes" look like they do have pedals and a self-propulsion mechanism, just hidden beneath all the bodywork designed for it to look more scooter like.

Yep.  These are all classified as electric bicycles, not scooters (even though they are clearly mopeds) . . . if you look carefully they all have pedals.  Even though they're clearly designed to never be pedalled.  It's how they get around our e-bike laws I guess.

I don't necessarily object to their existence- lightweight electric vehicle, get some fresh air even if exercise is something you don't want or can't do- but the vestigial pedals and using the sidewalk sound annoying AF. Bikes usually shouldn't be on the sidewalk anyway. I wouldn't mind encountering one in the bike lane if it had the same top speed as a typical ebike (20mph or I think some can do 28 but I'm not sure those are allowed on bike paths).

I'm a bit skeptical about some of these claims about the greeness of ebikes and scooters tbh.  Here in London we have fleets of e-bike/scooter schemes than can't be profitable.  The get vandalised and stolen, and then the bikes can get left anyway on the sidewalk which sorta pisses everyone off.  They pay some poor sod minimum wages to drive around the city overnight and pick them all up and return them to their parking stations.  It's not a sustainable business model.

Yeah, I think there's a big difference between personal bikes and scooters vs the rental ones. The rental ones can be a real menace, especially in big cities with a lot of tourists, and I doubt that they save enough emissions to justify the creation of the battery.

[Arbitrage]

Those "bikes" look like they do have pedals and a self-propulsion mechanism, just hidden beneath all the bodywork designed for it to look more scooter like.

But I agree, the line between bike/scooter is more blurred than before.

I'm a bit skeptical about some of these claims about the greeness of ebikes and scooters tbh.  Here in London we have fleets of e-bike/scooter schemes than can't be profitable.  The get vandalised and stolen, and then the bikes can get left anyway on the sidewalk which sorta pisses everyone off.  They pay some poor sod minimum wages to drive around the city overnight and pick them all up and return them to their parking stations.  It's not a sustainable business model.

There's a huge difference between (the greenness of) owning and using your own e-bike/scooter and those rental schemes.  Don't think you should conflate the two.  Those schemes have tons of flaws, but that's not really what this is about.

[Chaplin]

I'm actually more concerned about the safety of young people on ebikes, especially after my 11yo got hit by a car on his regular bike. It seems like there's a lot of potential for things to go wrong. I haven't let my boys try it out yet.

It's all about the infrastructure! If it were safe to get around, and destinations had covered (at least) or indoor secure parking, the use of all types bikes would go up massively, leaving that 1% number in the dust. Add in transit integration, better land-use planning, etc. and over the longer term it would be transformational.

I've always wanted to dramatically decrease our car use and this year has been a big one for us. It takes a whole bunch of little steps to keep reducing the friction so that it's easier and easier to make the bike the logical choice when you walk out the door. This has culminated in not renewing the insurance on one car to see how it will go and it's no big deal so far. I'd like to get rid of it and just get a car-share membership instead.

Some of the little steps to reduce friction:
1. I upgraded my "winter bike" - mostly a rainy season rather than a snowy season here, although if it does snow I just bring out the MTB.

2. I converted my wife's existing bike to an e-bike. I still feel like many people just don't give themselves the time to get over the fitness hump to the point where any bike will do, but the reality is that it was do this conversion or she wasn't going to ride anywhere near as much, and this is going to be the case for a lot of people. Less car, more good.

3. Upgraded my son's bike to something pretty nice but not crazy fancy and put good fenders on it (fenders are a game changer if you've never used them). He rides it to school every day and around town with me or with friends.

4. Arranged the shed to make access easier.

5. Upcoming project: build an open closet where we come into the house with a charging station for lights, a boot drier, a rack for wet clothes, hooks for helmets and gloves, etc. so it's super-easy to leave or return from a bike ride and deal with the gear.

6: Upcoming project: build a separate shed for a few bikes to make them even easier to grab (current shed is a pain no matter what, partly because of location).

7. Eventually, add a cargo bike to the fleet. I like to get groceries in small batches with a backpack, but my wife prefers fewer, bigger loads. Groceries by bike might always be a team effort with me or my son doing cargo bike duty, but it's entirely possible that my wife might embrace it and just replace the car with the bike for that purpose.

In case it's not obvious, this whole topic is a huge interest of mine...

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

I'm actually more concerned about the safety of young people on ebikes, especially after my 11yo got hit by a car on his regular bike. It seems like there's a lot of potential for things to go wrong. I haven't let my boys try it out yet.

It's all about the infrastructure! If it were safe to get around, and destinations had covered (at least) or indoor secure parking, the use of all types bikes would go up massively, leaving that 1% number in the dust. Add in transit integration, better land-use planning, etc. and over the longer term it would be transformational.

YES! We could do so much better. We have some great bike lanes in some places but in others, it's scary. And the bike lanes stay icy way past when the road does.

For me, I've been concentrating on finding better, safer routes. I found my boys a better way to school after LB's sidewalk-riding accident, and I found myself a better way to get to Home Depot (and maybe also Target) without going on the sidewalk. Walmart is easier to get to than Target by bike so sometimes I go there instead, even though it's not my fave.

Aside from not having to get off and walk uphill, not getting to work all sweaty and adding the extra power that I need for toddler-hauling, my other favorite thing about the ebike is that it's FASTER. You're a dad, I'm sure you get it- sometimes the time is limited! Taking the ebike to Home Depot, say, takes longer than the car, but the regular bike would be a total nonstarter.

[Chaplin]

For me, I've been concentrating on finding better, safer routes. I found my boys a better way to school after LB's sidewalk-riding accident, and I found myself a better way to get to Home Depot (and maybe also Target) without going on the sidewalk. Walmart is easier to get to than Target by bike so sometimes I go there instead, even though it's not my fave.

I do a lot of route optimization. It's great once you've done it, but it's another barrier to entry for someone who doesn't know where to start. Better "wayfinding" is one of the lower-cost ways to make it a bit easier for everyone. I totally support anyone riding on the sidewalk if it's the only safe option. Making it illegal to ride on the sidewalk while making it deadly to ride on the road is a big part of the problem. In practice I pretty much never have to, but I wouldn't fault anyone for it. Caveats about it being more dangerous on the sidewalk, and also not endangering pedestrians apply.

Aside from not having to get off and walk uphill, not getting to work all sweaty and adding the extra power that I need for toddler-hauling, my other favorite thing about the ebike is that it's FASTER. You're a dad, I'm sure you get it- sometimes the time is limited! Taking the ebike to Home Depot, say, takes longer than the car, but the regular bike would be a total nonstarter.

The era of moms and dads hauling kids on cargo bikes (a least in significant numbers around here) started just bit too late for my kid's baby and toddler years. I sort of regret not having been able to do that. I love seeing it around town here and I think it's helping push our municipalities to consider road safety a lot more seriously. An e-cargo bike to haul a few kids to school or daycare and then continue on to work is a wonderful thing. I've often heard of mom's hauling kids on bikes as an "indicator species" that the environment (road safety) has reached a certain minimum level. As far as Home Depot goes, in my area it's a pretty easy ride (I don't have an e-bike) but of course hauling things bigger than I can carry is either going to require a cargo bike or ideally one of the local car-share pickup or van options. Delivery from Home Depot has been pretty handy for some bigger items too.

[La Bibliotecaria Feroz]

I do a lot of route optimization. It's great once you've done it, but it's another barrier to entry for someone who doesn't know where to start. Better "wayfinding" is one of the lower-cost ways to make it a bit easier for everyone. I totally support anyone riding on the sidewalk if it's the only safe option. Making it illegal to ride on the sidewalk while making it deadly to ride on the road is a big part of the problem. In practice I pretty much never have to, but I wouldn't fault anyone for it. Caveats about it being more dangerous on the sidewalk, and also not endangering pedestrians apply.

...
The era of moms and dads hauling kids on cargo bikes (a least in significant numbers around here) started just bit too late for my kid's baby and toddler years. I sort of regret not having been able to do that. I love seeing it around town here and I think it's helping push our municipalities to consider road safety a lot more seriously. An e-cargo bike to haul a few kids to school or daycare and then continue on to work is a wonderful thing. I've often heard of mom's hauling kids on bikes as an "indicator species" that the environment (road safety) has reached a certain minimum level. As far as Home Depot goes, in my area it's a pretty easy ride (I don't have an e-bike) but of course hauling things bigger than I can carry is either going to require a cargo bike or ideally one of the local car-share pickup or van options. Delivery from Home Depot has been pretty handy for some bigger items too.

You may have missed my big bike event- my 11yo was struck by a car while biking on the sidewalk (I mean, crossing a street while biking on the sidewalk) and then the civilian crash inspector ticketed him for biking on the sidewalk in general and the left-hand sidewalk in particular. I didn't know it was illegal before that. LB is fine- two weeks on crutches- but when the guy who hit him called me and said in a broken voice, "Your son - he was crossing the street"- there was a horrible split second that I will never forget, where I thought he was going to tell me that one of my kids was dead. (Dude was just upset because he'd hit a kid with his car!) So that's why we don't bike on the sidewalk anymore.

That's interesting about the "indicator species." I definitely see other parents out there towing kids! My older kids are 11 and 12 but then I have this "caboose baby" to tow around on my ebike! Second chance!

10 years and 30 pounds ago, I could pull both those boys in a trailer with a non-motorized bike. One time I loaded the trailer so full, I blew out the tire. Good times!

[Chaplin]

You may have missed my big bike event- my 11yo was struck by a car while biking on the sidewalk (I mean, crossing a street while biking on the sidewalk) and then the civilian crash inspector ticketed him for biking on the sidewalk in general and the left-hand sidewalk in particular. I didn't know it was illegal before that. LB is fine- two weeks on crutches- but when the guy who hit him called me and said in a broken voice, "Your son - he was crossing the street"- there was a horrible split second that I will never forget, where I thought he was going to tell me that one of my kids was dead. (Dude was just upset because he'd hit a kid with his car!) So that's why we don't bike on the sidewalk anymore.

That's interesting about the "indicator species." I definitely see other parents out there towing kids! My older kids are 11 and 12 but then I have this "caboose baby" to tow around on my ebike! Second chance!

10 years and 30 pounds ago, I could pull both those boys in a trailer with a non-motorized bike. One time I loaded the trailer so full, I blew out the tire. Good times!

I do recall that - I'm sorry if I sounded insensitive as that wasn't my intention at all. Sidewalks have their own dangers, as your son experienced - how is doing? Getting ticketed just ads insult to injury when you've been put into a no-win situation. My comment was only that I don't fault anyone for riding on the sidewalk if they feel it's the safer option. Better infrastructure is the only reliable solution.