The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: Zoot on March 17, 2021, 07:20:19 AM
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Hey, everybody--I know that there are many, many fans of Dr. Doom here, so wanted to share that I got an e-mail notifying me of a new post at his blog with an early retirement update!
Here's the link: https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-update/
Mods, feel free to move this to a more appropriate sub-forum if desired; I was so excited to see the post that my discerning faculty was impaired. :)
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Thanks for the heads up!
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Wow! That was some update. I read all of his writing and I have to say he was quite influential in my decision to retire.
However, even when I was reading his thought processes, I kept getting the feeling that he had little margin for unexpected events. I am so glad that he has come through his big life changes as well as he has - he is resilient!
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He has always been an influence on me and I love his writing. Glad he ended up in a better position than where he started
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Thanks for the heads up!
ETA: Just finished reading the post, and holy shite, that is quite a read. Not what I would have wished for for him, but sounds like he is doing ok.
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Good, honest read. Thanks!
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Wow! Good read indeed! Thanks for the alert.
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Thanks for posting!
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Thanks for posting this, I would have missed it since he's been quiet for so long.
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He always had some of the best stuff. This is another great post and refreshing take. Also a good balance to most bloggers flippant attitude towards healthcare.
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I also should point out that working helped to reduce my feelings of isolation and loneliness — it gave me something concrete to do, people to interact with, that kind of thing. It provided problems and situations to keep my brain busy in the wake of the split up so I couldn’t ruminate/obsess on it endlessly. This might sound like I’m trying to hard to find positives about working again but holy shit I am not. Staying busy helped me to get through this period of my life.
It's a real pity he wasn't able to recognize this same need in his ex-wife's struggle with retirement, and instead dismissed it as a shallow, weak need to conform and keep up with the Joneses. I'm glad he found a good therapist and is working on improving his skills communication with his new partner.
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Wow, what a post. Good to read that a profiled blogger is living a real life and needs to improvise when the SHTF and then writes about it.
We cannot expect to live in the same way forever, life can happen. And in worst case, if we need more stash, it isn't worse than going back to work.
I am very glad he found a new partner who might even be a better match.
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I also should point out that working helped to reduce my feelings of isolation and loneliness — it gave me something concrete to do, people to interact with, that kind of thing. It provided problems and situations to keep my brain busy in the wake of the split up so I couldn’t ruminate/obsess on it endlessly. This might sound like I’m trying to hard to find positives about working again but holy shit I am not. Staying busy helped me to get through this period of my life.
It's a real pity he wasn't able to recognize this same need in his ex-wife's struggle with retirement, and instead dismissed it as a shallow, weak need to conform and keep up with the Joneses. I'm glad he found a good therapist and is working on improving his skills communication with his new partner.
Did you notice the extended relationship talks at https://livingafi.com/post-fire-relationship-disconnect/ (https://livingafi.com/post-fire-relationship-disconnect/) ? She didn't just want to go back to working, she wanted him to go back to working. And reading through some of those discussions makes it seem like he went at least 60% of the way, and she couldn't do the last 40%.
Edit: I see what you mean:
"Her: I felt like it was enough when I was earning money and I had people reporting to me and I was solving problems and closing projects out and leading a team.
Him: I call bullshit. You hated it. Four out of five nights a week we would just bitch about work in the evenings. Where was the satisfaction then?"
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I'm thoroughly confused about the "Extremely Rough Financials." I assumed part of his reason for needing to return to work was because he lost a portion of the stash in the divorce, but it seems that did not happen. I'm not too familiar with Dr. Doom, did they keep separate finances, and separate his/hers retirement stash?
I count the bid D as the single greatest risk to ER. Nothing else has a higher potential for permanent loss of capital. It's concerning to learn of situations where a spouse becomes disillusioned with the new lifestyle.
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This was a great read. Communication is hard, especially when your values are different.
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Thank you for posting this, 2sk22. I always enjoyed reading Dr. Doom but after the years of silence I never would have thought to check this site and I'm not subscribed. Entry packed a major wallop but it's really useful to hear about both how things could go wrong and how they could go right, and what happens when things go wrong and how a person can recover.
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I'm thoroughly confused about the "Extremely Rough Financials." I assumed part of his reason for needing to return to work was because he lost a portion of the stash in the divorce, but it seems that did not happen. I'm not too familiar with Dr. Doom, did they keep separate finances, and separate his/hers retirement stash?
I count the bid D as the single greatest risk to ER. Nothing else has a higher potential for permanent loss of capital. It's concerning to learn of situations where a spouse becomes disillusioned with the new lifestyle.
Chronic or catastrophic health problems are right up there, too.
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I also should point out that working helped to reduce my feelings of isolation and loneliness — it gave me something concrete to do, people to interact with, that kind of thing. It provided problems and situations to keep my brain busy in the wake of the split up so I couldn’t ruminate/obsess on it endlessly. This might sound like I’m trying to hard to find positives about working again but holy shit I am not. Staying busy helped me to get through this period of my life.
It's a real pity he wasn't able to recognize this same need in his ex-wife's struggle with retirement, and instead dismissed it as a shallow, weak need to conform and keep up with the Joneses. I'm glad he found a good therapist and is working on improving his skills communication with his new partner.
Meh. There is clearly a lot of anger and sadness tied up with how his relationship with his ex ended. I had two good friends who divorced as a result of adultery, and I will say it took the cheated-on person A LONG TIME to let go of the anger. And, frankly, for all we know, she really was feeling like she wanted to keep up with others in her social group. Which is a perfectly normal, natural impulse because we are social animals. Anyway, we're only ever going to get his side of the story because it's a personal blog--that's kind of the nature of the beast.
And, yes, this is a great read. A bookmark worthy one. One I will probably revisit again and again as I get closer to FIRE. I think it's really helpful to hear someone talk frankly about how stepping way outside the mainstream strains social relationships. It makes all the sense in the world -- if your lifestyle becomes really different than that of your friends / social group, eventually you'll have less in common and you'll grow apart. But hearing him speak very directly to how lonely FIRE can be and how that growing apart contributed to the end of his relationship is thought provoking.
My dad worked until close to standard retirement age, working for the same company for the last 20 years of his career. I'm sure there were tough, frustrating days. In fact, he taught me VERY early on that all jobs are a ratio of fun stuff to bullshit and you will never fully eliminate the bullshit but you should try to optimize the fun stuff. But when he talks about his career, and in particular his retirement party, he absolutely beams with pride. In his personal narrative, the years he spent in his profession are an identity and an achievement worthy of his time. It's also clear to me that since he retired, he has slowed down a lot. In the first few years he LOVED retirement and had a lot of travel and projects, but since then health issues have caught up with him and my mom, and they just seem to be declining. Some of that's to be expected at their age, some of that's probably Covid isolation, but it does make me wonder if detaching from work contributed to that decline.
Of course, I'll never know what would have happened if he'd kept working a few more years or if he even wanted to. Maybe his health would have declined faster. Maybe he would have really regretted not having those few years of travel and projects. And maybe they like being slowed down. Or maybe he and my mom have a few more of those years in them. Who's to say?
But he retired in his late 50s. I'm on track to retire in my mid 40s. And reading Doom's post and reflecting on my dad's experience makes me wonder if disconnecting from work disconnects you from a whole part of the world and, if you do that too early, that disconnect does more harm than good. Then again, is puttering away at an unfulfilling job really the best way to spend your days? Is it worth it just to stay comfortably, securely attached to the hivemind with the attendant compensation and health benefits?
It's something to think about.
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I also should point out that working helped to reduce my feelings of isolation and loneliness — it gave me something concrete to do, people to interact with, that kind of thing. It provided problems and situations to keep my brain busy in the wake of the split up so I couldn’t ruminate/obsess on it endlessly. This might sound like I’m trying to hard to find positives about working again but holy shit I am not. Staying busy helped me to get through this period of my life.
It's a real pity he wasn't able to recognize this same need in his ex-wife's struggle with retirement, and instead dismissed it as a shallow, weak need to conform and keep up with the Joneses. I'm glad he found a good therapist and is working on improving his skills communication with his new partner.
Meh. There is clearly a lot of anger and sadness tied up with how his relationship with his ex ended. I had two good friends who divorced as a result of adultery, and I will say it took the cheated-on person A LONG TIME to let go of the anger. And, frankly, for all we know, she really was feeling like she wanted to keep up with others in her social group. Which is a perfectly normal, natural impulse because we are social animals.
Yeah, I know, that's what I'm saying. He didn't notice that he was trying to keep up with others too--he compares himself to other FI bloggers a couple times in that post. Keeping up with the Lees isn't that different than keeping up with the Joneses, you know? I'm saying I feel bad for him that he didn't have the self-awareness at the time to realize that he and his ex-wife had the same needs, and unfortunately he characterized her needs as being inauthentic and conformist, while his own were independent and more meaningful. That turned out to be false.
Not sure what you mean about anger/sadness, by his own account, he was dismissive of her change of heart before the infidelity.
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I also should point out that working helped to reduce my feelings of isolation and loneliness — it gave me something concrete to do, people to interact with, that kind of thing. It provided problems and situations to keep my brain busy in the wake of the split up so I couldn’t ruminate/obsess on it endlessly. This might sound like I’m trying to hard to find positives about working again but holy shit I am not. Staying busy helped me to get through this period of my life.
It's a real pity he wasn't able to recognize this same need in his ex-wife's struggle with retirement, and instead dismissed it as a shallow, weak need to conform and keep up with the Joneses. I'm glad he found a good therapist and is working on improving his skills communication with his new partner.
Meh. There is clearly a lot of anger and sadness tied up with how his relationship with his ex ended. I had two good friends who divorced as a result of adultery, and I will say it took the cheated-on person A LONG TIME to let go of the anger. And, frankly, for all we know, she really was feeling like she wanted to keep up with others in her social group. Which is a perfectly normal, natural impulse because we are social animals.
Yeah, I know, that's what I'm saying. He didn't notice that he was trying to keep up with others too--he compares himself to other FI bloggers a couple times in that post. Keeping up with the Lees isn't that different than keeping up with the Joneses, you know? I'm saying I feel bad for him that he didn't have the self-awareness at the time to realize that he and his ex-wife had the same needs, and unfortunately he characterized her needs as being inauthentic and conformist, while his own were independent and more meaningful. That turned out to be false.
Not sure what you mean about anger/sadness, by his own account, he was dismissive of her change of heart before the infidelity.
Perhaps we're just talking past each other, my Cool Friend. I don't see his comparing himself to other bloggers as necessarily the same as her comparing herself to the lives she sees on social media. He was simply recognizing that perhaps other FI personalities seemed to be happier / more successful because they had openly built FI into a public identity and created a community around it while he was just . . . a guy without a job and an anonymous blog. His ex wasn't just pondering others lifestyles to try to understand her unhappiness, she was taking active steps to emulate that lifestyle.
What I meant by the anger / sadness was that, by the tone of his writing, he's still got a lot of unresolved negative emotions toward his ex. And I think those may be preventing him from seeing the situation clearly or understanding why she felt the way she did. And I feel like, given how the relationship ended, that's understandable. Maybe not great, but at least understandable.
Anyway -- enough deconstructing the relationships of strangers for one day.
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I don't see his comparing himself to other bloggers as necessarily the same as her comparing herself to the lives she sees on social media. He was simply recognizing that perhaps other FI personalities seemed to be happier / more successful because they had openly built FI into a public identity and created a community around it while he was just . . . a guy without a job and an anonymous blog. His ex wasn't just pondering others lifestyles to try to understand her unhappiness, she was taking active steps to emulate that lifestyle.
She was simply recognizing that perhaps other FB personalities seemed to be happier / more successful because they had openly built middle class working life into a public identity and created a community around it while she was just . . . a gal without a job and an anonymous blogger husband.
edit: agree there's a lot of food for thought and I feel icky delving too deep in someone else's relationship. I just saw a lost opportunity for their connection and understanding, and I feel empathy for them.
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I also should point out that working helped to reduce my feelings of isolation and loneliness — it gave me something concrete to do, people to interact with, that kind of thing. It provided problems and situations to keep my brain busy in the wake of the split up so I couldn’t ruminate/obsess on it endlessly. This might sound like I’m trying to hard to find positives about working again but holy shit I am not. Staying busy helped me to get through this period of my life.
It's a real pity he wasn't able to recognize this same need in his ex-wife's struggle with retirement, and instead dismissed it as a shallow, weak need to conform and keep up with the Joneses. I'm glad he found a good therapist and is working on improving his skills communication with his new partner.
Meh. There is clearly a lot of anger and sadness tied up with how his relationship with his ex ended. I had two good friends who divorced as a result of adultery, and I will say it took the cheated-on person A LONG TIME to let go of the anger. And, frankly, for all we know, she really was feeling like she wanted to keep up with others in her social group. Which is a perfectly normal, natural impulse because we are social animals.
Yeah, I know, that's what I'm saying. He didn't notice that he was trying to keep up with others too--he compares himself to other FI bloggers a couple times in that post. Keeping up with the Lees isn't that different than keeping up with the Joneses, you know? I'm saying I feel bad for him that he didn't have the self-awareness at the time to realize that he and his ex-wife had the same needs, and unfortunately he characterized her needs as being inauthentic and conformist, while his own were independent and more meaningful. That turned out to be false.
Not sure what you mean about anger/sadness, by his own account, he was dismissive of her change of heart before the infidelity.
I'd also love to hear his ex's side of the story. People love to condemn others (especially women) for having extramarital sex, but we'll never really know who is at fault or what goes on in other people's relationships. Notice that she says "I wanted to have kids with you," but apparently they didn't have kids? Although he's planning to have one with the new woman? Got to be a story there.
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I think some people just can’t handle having lots of free time to do whatever they want. It’s sad because that’s actually the natural human condition. Hunter gatherer tribes typically “work” for about two hours a day and then they socialize and enjoy themselves the rest of the time. The majority of Americans have been brainwashed into thinking that their cage is a wonderful thing. Doctor Doom is better off without his ex-wife dragging him down.
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Reading Dr doom's post again, a couple of things stand out:
1. Purpose: The feeling of being needed by an organization can give a powerful sense of satisfaction that can overcome many of the other problems with a job. Dr Doom's ex lost clearly this sense of purpose after retirement.
2. Goals: When I was working, my goals were generally externally generated by my management chain. After a period of decompression after retirement, I feel that people need endogenously originated goals to keep going. Dr. Doom had his writing but its not clear what his ex's goals were.
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It's pretty fucked up that she wanted him to go back to work against his will so they could buy a bunch of stuff he didn't even want. It's one thing if you as an individual want to work and buy things, but holy shit is that ever some next-level entitlement to want someone else to work to buy you things, when that person otherwise does not need to work.
It goes to show how important it is to be on the same page with regards to long term goals and lifestyle preferences.
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Does any know how old was or is Dr. Doom?
Knowing his age might be helpful in understanding many thing happened.
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It's pretty fucked up that she wanted him to go back to work against his will so they could buy a bunch of stuff he didn't even want. It's one thing if you as an individual want to work and buy things, but holy shit is that ever some next-level entitlement to want someone else to work to buy you things, when that person otherwise does not need to work.
It goes to show how important it is to be on the same page with regards to long term goals and lifestyle preferences.
I read it as the wife saying - "What will our friends think, with me being a successful working person, while my husband is bumming around." She didn't want to force him back to work - she just wanted the traditional work more / buy more stuff treadmill to be a team effort. I get it.
It's just too bad she didn't realize sooner, but sometimes things don't work out the way you imagine them to be.
I felt so sad reading the post, and it's not what I really pictured happening to him in the radio silence. I hope thing work out for him and he can retain a sense of meaning and purpose, no matter what he chooses to do.
Does any know how old was or is Dr. Doom?
Knowing his age might be helpful in understanding many thing happened.
He says he's currently 43.
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Damn, I don't know why reading that feels like a gut punch for me... weird, it's just unsettling I guess. Yep, anything can happen.
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She didn't transition to FI. In the end she couldn't establish an identity outside of being a worker-consumer. She gave it plenty of time, and it didn't work for her. She was seeing the fiction everyone else creates about their lives on social media, and her reality didn't measure up because her true values hadn't changed when they became FI. I suspect she didn't receive enough admiration for shedding her worker-consumer identity, admiration she clearly desired. There were no dopamine hits for staying home and cooking instead of going out for dinner-movie-shopping. Living a quiet, non-consumer, out of the rat race life is probably harder in the age of social media and cultural adulation for ostentatious spending.
Or perhaps all of the dissatisfaction, etc. was just internal justification for the infidelity. I suppose it's easy to decide your spouse and the life you've built with them isn't what you want once you've already cheated. Maybe she strayed (even if it was only emotionally at first) and then found ways to justify it by telling herself this was all his dream. The conversations he blogged about summed it up -- if he didn't work he was nothing. She may very well have changed the narrative to feel better about cheating, telling herself that a man who works is far more valuable than a man who doesn't. And he may very well find it easier to think she didn't want the person he became after FIRE rather than thinking it was something else.
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It's pretty fucked up that she wanted him to go back to work against his will so they could buy a bunch of stuff he didn't even want. It's one thing if you as an individual want to work and buy things, but holy shit is that ever some next-level entitlement to want someone else to work to buy you things, when that person otherwise does not need to work.
It goes to show how important it is to be on the same page with regards to long term goals and lifestyle preferences.
I read it as the wife saying - "What will our friends think, with me being a successful working person, while my husband is bumming around." She didn't want to force him back to work - she just wanted the traditional work more / buy more stuff treadmill to be a team effort. I get it.
It's just too bad she didn't realize sooner, but sometimes things don't work out the way you imagine them to be.
I felt so sad reading the post, and it's not what I really pictured happening to him in the radio silence. I hope thing work out for him and he can retain a sense of meaning and purpose, no matter what he chooses to do.
Does any know how old was or is Dr. Doom?
Knowing his age might be helpful in understanding many thing happened.
He says he's currently 43.
OK. As we always say here: Retiring too early, you can correct it.
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I also should point out that working helped to reduce my feelings of isolation and loneliness — it gave me something concrete to do, people to interact with, that kind of thing. It provided problems and situations to keep my brain busy in the wake of the split up so I couldn’t ruminate/obsess on it endlessly. This might sound like I’m trying to hard to find positives about working again but holy shit I am not. Staying busy helped me to get through this period of my life.
It's a real pity he wasn't able to recognize this same need in his ex-wife's struggle with retirement, and instead dismissed it as a shallow, weak need to conform and keep up with the Joneses. I'm glad he found a good therapist and is working on improving his skills communication with his new partner.
Meh. There is clearly a lot of anger and sadness tied up with how his relationship with his ex ended. I had two good friends who divorced as a result of adultery, and I will say it took the cheated-on person A LONG TIME to let go of the anger. And, frankly, for all we know, she really was feeling like she wanted to keep up with others in her social group. Which is a perfectly normal, natural impulse because we are social animals.
Yeah, I know, that's what I'm saying. He didn't notice that he was trying to keep up with others too--he compares himself to other FI bloggers a couple times in that post. Keeping up with the Lees isn't that different than keeping up with the Joneses, you know? I'm saying I feel bad for him that he didn't have the self-awareness at the time to realize that he and his ex-wife had the same needs, and unfortunately he characterized her needs as being inauthentic and conformist, while his own were independent and more meaningful. That turned out to be false.
Not sure what you mean about anger/sadness, by his own account, he was dismissive of her change of heart before the infidelity.
I'd also love to hear his ex's side of the story. People love to condemn others (especially women) for having extramarital sex, but we'll never really know who is at fault or what goes on in other people's relationships. Notice that she says "I wanted to have kids with you," but apparently they didn't have kids? Although he's planning to have one with the new woman? Got to be a story there.
The story of why no kids is infertility. He briefly touched on it many many years ago. It likely is very deeply personal and painful. I would hope anyone that is about to jump on this to please reconsider because infertility is fucking awful and can absolutely destroy a person let alone marriage, so there might be some issues with the ex where she may never recover her personhood and have struggled terribly to define herself as she ages.
In any case, there is zero reasons whatsoever to cheat in a marriage. If you're unhappy, deal with it or end the relationship like a grownup if the unhappy is because you're not getting enough attention/sex/wrong kind of sex/whatever - the answer is NEVER "go fuck another person or have an emotional affair." I'm just so sad that she felt that was a viable response for whatever pain/sadness she was unable to reconcile.
I am heartbroken at what Dr Doom has gone through but it does sound like he's moving in the right direction still.
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I'd also love to hear his ex's side of the story. People love to condemn others (especially women) for having extramarital sex, but we'll never really know who is at fault or what goes on in other people's relationships. Notice that she says "I wanted to have kids with you," but apparently they didn't have kids? Although he's planning to have one with the new woman? Got to be a story there.
I agree. And reading that there were infertility issues, I really doubt the split has much to do with FIRE, and everything to do with communication and other relationship issues. But their agreement was clearly monogamy, so she should have exited the marriage rather than cheating on Dr. Doom and dragging him down. I think she wanted to believe he was "nothing" to justify her behavior to herself.
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What a roller coaster! The thing that struck me the most was the surprise that he has the same syndrome Tanja Hester/Our Next Life does, and these two FIRE people are the sum total of the two times I've heard of it. Pretty wild, and very sad, coincidence. Having read a few things from TH about expected life spans and QOL, I was extra sad for both of them.
I recognize so much in what he has written. My life, including the financial aspect, would change a lot if my relationship ended as well (I already know exactly how and what I would do, but the point is it is life changing for sure). Wondering about purpose and isolation. On the other hand, I've always felt strongly that connections and roots can come from outside a workplace as much as in, and I wonder if his ex would have been more satisfied if she had put down some more roots in new activities and communities (not geographic, but hobby/cultural/volunteer) where she would have had more diverse "Joneses" to keep up with and compare herself to. By the time they were discussing this and he was suggesting that, it seemed far too late. I do think it's has been critical for me to have done that (even though sometimes I lament I've gone too far and want to pull up some of my roots and be more isolated!) and I even worry if I moved to a new city, state or country, having to do that all over again could be a daunting task. It's so critical, but it isn't easy. I do believe we all always need to be building our own communities and relationships. Staying in the same job forever can fool you about this because the community is provided for you and you may not have to work as hard at it. Retiring early has actually kept me on my toes about this and I'm hyperaware of cultivating paths for my future and thinking about how things might change out from under me in the next 3-4 decades. I definitely don't think things will be static nor do they feel that way AT ALL, as his ex seems to have experienced.
And the projects and networks I've built in my RE can conveniently be framed into a story of "moving" and successes and "going somewhere" for the crowd that just doesn't get early retirement. I don't love doing it, it feels a bit icky, but it's nice to be able to "speak that language" if I need to and remind myself that it's all about framing and perception for everyone. There's a lot of comparing their own insides to everyone else's outsides in that blog post. It's natural with humans, but absolutely devastating.
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People love to condemn others (especially women) for having extramarital sex, but we'll never really know who is at fault or what goes on in other people's relationships.
People love to condemn others for having extramarital sex because it's a pretty nasty combination of cowardice and violation of trust.
If you want to have sex with someone else - fine. It's your life, it's your body. Do what you want. But have the courage to be honest about it and tell your partner outright what you're going to do. Don't violate your partner's trust by sneaking around behind their back. If this results in the end of the relationship - so be it. That's the choice that you're making.
I've never heard a valid reason for a secret extramarital affair.
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It's pretty fucked up that she wanted him to go back to work against his will so they could buy a bunch of stuff he didn't even want. It's one thing if you as an individual want to work and buy things, but holy shit is that ever some next-level entitlement to want someone else to work to buy you things, when that person otherwise does not need to work.
It goes to show how important it is to be on the same page with regards to long term goals and lifestyle preferences.
I find this very interesting because he noted that she was on the same page with him at first. He said that she was earnestly on board with the plan and he confirmed that with her many times before actually proceeding. What I have found in my marriage over the past ten years, is that being on the same page is not necessarily as important as being able to grow with the person. I never would have imagined my life as it is now, with me as the breadwinner, DH as a SAHP to three kids. But it happened, somewhat due to circumstances outside of our control, and we were able to work through it all together. I think Dr. Doom's story illustrates how people can change. It sounds like he did put forth the effort, but it just didn't work in the end.
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I also should point out that working helped to reduce my feelings of isolation and loneliness — it gave me something concrete to do, people to interact with, that kind of thing. It provided problems and situations to keep my brain busy in the wake of the split up so I couldn’t ruminate/obsess on it endlessly. This might sound like I’m trying to hard to find positives about working again but holy shit I am not. Staying busy helped me to get through this period of my life.
It's a real pity he wasn't able to recognize this same need in his ex-wife's struggle with retirement, and instead dismissed it as a shallow, weak need to conform and keep up with the Joneses. I'm glad he found a good therapist and is working on improving his skills communication with his new partner.
Meh. There is clearly a lot of anger and sadness tied up with how his relationship with his ex ended. I had two good friends who divorced as a result of adultery, and I will say it took the cheated-on person A LONG TIME to let go of the anger. And, frankly, for all we know, she really was feeling like she wanted to keep up with others in her social group. Which is a perfectly normal, natural impulse because we are social animals. Anyway, we're only ever going to get his side of the story because it's a personal blog--that's kind of the nature of the beast.
And, yes, this is a great read. A bookmark worthy one. One I will probably revisit again and again as I get closer to FIRE. I think it's really helpful to hear someone talk frankly about how stepping way outside the mainstream strains social relationships. It makes all the sense in the world -- if your lifestyle becomes really different than that of your friends / social group, eventually you'll have less in common and you'll grow apart. But hearing him speak very directly to how lonely FIRE can be and how that growing apart contributed to the end of his relationship is thought provoking.
My dad worked until close to standard retirement age, working for the same company for the last 20 years of his career. I'm sure there were tough, frustrating days. In fact, he taught me VERY early on that all jobs are a ratio of fun stuff to bullshit and you will never fully eliminate the bullshit but you should try to optimize the fun stuff. But when he talks about his career, and in particular his retirement party, he absolutely beams with pride. In his personal narrative, the years he spent in his profession are an identity and an achievement worthy of his time. It's also clear to me that since he retired, he has slowed down a lot. In the first few years he LOVED retirement and had a lot of travel and projects, but since then health issues have caught up with him and my mom, and they just seem to be declining. Some of that's to be expected at their age, some of that's probably Covid isolation, but it does make me wonder if detaching from work contributed to that decline.
Of course, I'll never know what would have happened if he'd kept working a few more years or if he even wanted to. Maybe his health would have declined faster. Maybe he would have really regretted not having those few years of travel and projects. And maybe they like being slowed down. Or maybe he and my mom have a few more of those years in them. Who's to say?
But he retired in his late 50s. I'm on track to retire in my mid 40s. And reading Doom's post and reflecting on my dad's experience makes me wonder if disconnecting from work disconnects you from a whole part of the world and, if you do that too early, that disconnect does more harm than good. Then again, is puttering away at an unfulfilling job really the best way to spend your days? Is it worth it just to stay comfortably, securely attached to the hivemind with the attendant compensation and health benefits?
It's something to think about.
I think the disconnect/decline is talked about fairly often, and typically the answer is to find some other sort of fulfillment/way to connect in the community, whether its volunteering, taking classes, etc. In his case, he tried taking classes, but it seems like maybe his depression got in the way a bit too. In my family, people tend to retire and then sit in front of the tv, and the decline is painfully obvious. Not just mentally, but physically as well.
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Thanks so much for the heads up about this post. Dr Doom is my favorite blogger (hearsay around this forum?) and I’m always interested in how things go with him.
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And the projects and networks I've built in my RE can conveniently be framed into a story of "moving" and successes and "going somewhere" for the crowd that just doesn't get early retirement. I don't love doing it, it feels a bit icky, but it's nice to be able to "speak that language" if I need to and remind myself that it's all about framing and perception for everyone. There's a lot of comparing their own insides to everyone else's outsides in that blog post. It's natural with humans, but absolutely devastating.
This was what I was thinking while reading as well. A bunch of the things on my post-job list actually tie into the whole extrinsic-validation thing (getting accreditations in hobby sports, etc.). Makes me wonder if part of what I'm planning for is my own need to be seen by others as "respectable" (whatever the hell that means). And combining that with something where I can *see* the progress in titles or whatever feels like the SIGN that I'm doing something right. So maybe I'm a bit more like the ex in that sense, and it was helpful to get Doom's perspective on her experience!
All that said, the part that hit me was at the end:
So in the short term, it’s easier to get a check and work the job and focus on my life with my partner instead of the future. I simply no longer see working as a huge impediment to my overall happiness.
And by extension, I no longer see quitting my job and retiring early as the most direct path to bliss. It was five years ago, but now?
Happiness is not thinking too carefully about the finances.
Happiness is spending as much time as I possibly can with my partner.
Happiness is thinking about growth and joy and changes in the days to come.
There’s no point to Early Retirement if you haven’t properly positioned yourself toward the light of future happiness.
This. Just this.
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Wow! What a post!
That was some gutful update ...
Just forwarded to my hubby who just retired 2 months ago....
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It's pretty fucked up that she wanted him to go back to work against his will so they could buy a bunch of stuff he didn't even want. It's one thing if you as an individual want to work and buy things, but holy shit is that ever some next-level entitlement to want someone else to work to buy you things, when that person otherwise does not need to work.
It goes to show how important it is to be on the same page with regards to long term goals and lifestyle preferences.
I find this very interesting because he noted that she was on the same page with him at first. He said that she was earnestly on board with the plan and he confirmed that with her many times before actually proceeding. What I have found in my marriage over the past ten years, is that being on the same page is not necessarily as important as being able to grow with the person. I never would have imagined my life as it is now, with me as the breadwinner, DH as a SAHP to three kids. But it happened, somewhat due to circumstances outside of our control, and we were able to work through it all together. I think Dr. Doom's story illustrates how people can change. It sounds like he did put forth the effort, but it just didn't work in the end.
I mean, sort of, eventually she was on board, but I remember the earlier days several years ago when he used to post here in the MMM forums talking about the conflicts they had over those issues - and it was very much along the same lines. It looked to me more like she sort of eventually decided to give it a go, but was always hesitant about it to begin with.
I think a lot of it is less about exactly 100% agreeing on everything, and more an issues of shared values, which they clearly did not have. I feel like most people's inherent, deeply-held values do not change substantially over time, and relationships built on a foundation of shared values are much stronger.
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I personally feel there is little point in picking over someone's ended marriage to analyze causes.
It's not abnormal for marriages to end. It's a very, very common and even normal thing to happen, especially after a major life change. Also, the main things that keep failing marriages together are: children, and inability to afford divorce. So a no-kids marriage where each partner can afford to move on? That dramatically raises the probability of divorce, not because it makes marriages worse, but because it makes it easier to leave a marriage that isn't working. And there are A LOT of people out there in marriages that aren't working who feel like they can't leave.
I've never read his blog, but from that post and this thread, I'm gleaning that as a couple they dealt with: infertility, the MAJOR lifestyle change of early retirement, feeling alienated from friends, a very serious and untreatable chronic health diagnosis, untreated mental health issues, communication challenges, a refusal to seek professional counselling, and infidelity. It's actually impressive that they were married as long as they were and sustained what sounds like a pretty decent relationship for most of it.
I would actually call that a success.
Cheating is a dick move no matter what the circumstances, but he sounds like he's in a much more compatible relationship now, so that's also a success.
IDK, maybe it's just my perspective as someone with a very similar diagnosis, who has been through a lot of similar shit, I didn't read that post with any sort of shock or horror. What I read was an account of someone who started their retirement in the wrong marriage and in the dark about his own health, which is an illness he would have had his entire life. He didn't get sick, he got properly diagnosed after having it forever. And now he's properly diagnosed, in a happier relationship, potentially going to be a father, getting proper mental health care, and neither his illness nor his divorce left him in any real financial trouble. He's voluntarily working to subsidize his spouse's retirement because he can. Love seems to be his main motivator to keep working.
What I read was a happy story where the transition part was hard, because major life transitions usually are hard.
But as I am fond of saying: an absence of difficulty is not what makes a good life. And what this man shared is that he has a good life.
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What I read was a happy story where the transition part was hard, because major life transitions usually are hard.
But as I am fond of saying: an absence of difficulty is not what makes a good life. And what this man shared is that he has a good life.
+1
In a similar vein, I often quote Bruce Lee: "Do not pray for an easy life, pray for the strength to endure a difficult one."
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Thanks for the pointer!
Dr. Doom is one of my favorite FIRE bloggers. His posts have more raw unfiltered honesty and introspection than I've found anywhere else.
I'd been curious for a long time how retirement was working out for him, but after five years of radio silence, I was resigned to never knowing. I assumed it had just become his ordinary existence and he didn't feel the need to write a constant stream of updates about it. Looks like the reality was very different!
My takeaway from his update is that the math of FIRE works as promised. It's the emotional, living-life, finding-purpose side that's both more important and more difficult to master. His ex-wife told him she was on board, and probably she believed it herself at first. But when she actually tried living that way, she felt unmoored and directionless compared to the other people in their social circle.
The other valuable reminder is that you can't predict what fate will throw at you. A rare and expensive medical condition is just the kind of unforeseeable wrench in our FIRE plans that we all fear. But it's really true that our worst-case scenario is everyone else's everyday scenario: he went back to work for the time being, and he seems to be doing just fine. I'm sure those five years of rest and relaxation helped a lot, plus there's the security of knowing he still has a hefty stash to back him up.
I really liked this part:
If you are yourself working on becoming FI and you have any specific takeaway from this post, let it be this: You are making future plans based on what your current life looks like. Your current job, your current income, your current partner, your current percentage of savings, your expected market return, your housing costs, your location and so-on. You’re assuming large parts of your life will remain static over the next X years, where, for many early-retiree hopefuls, X is 30+ years, perhaps even fifty.
They may not be static. It might be a mistake to think that things will be as smooth as you believe they will be. The ability to recover from changes and disruptions — to be adaptable and resilient in the face of adversity — will show itself to be perhaps the most critical skill Early Retirement skill of them all. I hope sincerely that nothing changes for everyone on this path — that your happiness meter goes up to max and stays there. But for some small percentage of us, like myself — well. We will hit bumps in the road, potholes, areas of the street that are flooded out where you need to slow down or even turn around and find another route. And we will all need to be flexible enough to deal with it.
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I have never heard of Dr. Doom or his blog, but read and enjoyed the article. It was an interesting perspective.
My take is that he cares too much about other people's actions - who cares if someone wants to buy a 4,000 sq foot house with a significant mortgage? And then to place yourself on the moral high-ground (in the next sentence) saying, "material things don't matter", is silly; maybe for some, "things" do matter. Others, like Dr. Doom, not so much. Why allow people to take rent in your head? It is a waste of energy.
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There sure is a whole lot of talk about Dr. Doom's marriage here, but I feel that this discussion is underplaying the point that Dr. Doom didn't plan on having surprise major medical expenses. I'm glad it worked out for him, but that should be an obvious takeaway for the FIRE community.
I get so tired of blogs and even local forum posts where it's assumed that health problems won't to be a RE calculation gamechanger. I don't know whether or not to feel lucky that I've already locked this into my FIRE plan. I mean, at least it won't be a surprise? Best case scenario, the ACA improves, worst case, I won't retire early or be able to take a few years off.
Cross-posted from another thread I posted on:
If you or any family member ever ends up with a chronic condition, the medical expenses can easily skyrocket. As for myself, I have no other option than to plan to max out my OOP every year. I recommend other FIRE-seekers plan for the same. I mean, you never know. I was completely young and healthy (early 20s) when I came down with two conditions that will chain me for life to good health insurance with a reasonable OOP maximum. Luckily I am perfectly healthy now, as long as I stay on my $5k+/month medication...
At any rate, I'm so happy he posted to provide a lengthy yet altogether poignant update for us all, and thank you OP for alerting our community- it was a great read tonight.
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I've loved the Dr Doom blog for a long time. That post is a good reason why. He spoke honestly and showed exactly how being financially resposible fits into your whole life success. Saving and investing wisely can lead to a lot less stress in your life but there are plenty of things it can't protect you from.
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I think there is some unnecessary judgment of the wife in this thread - noting that we have not heard her side of the story. It may have been that she is one of those people for whom work or the appearance of work gives much meaning (I am definitely not one of them but I know plenty of smart, genuine people who just love working). Or it may have been that she wasn't happy with their level of lifestyle which I take it was relatively modest. Someone mentioned "going out for dinner-movie-shopping" and while that is something I might only do 3-4 times a year, if my budget fell below the level where I could do it on a whim, I'd be dissatisfied too. If my budget fell below the level where I couldn't make a significant purchase on a whim to please myself, I'd be dissatisfied. Let me repeat that this is not a moral failing.
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A good read, and a sobering reminder that many more a financial plan will be wrecked by a change in health and/or circumstances than ever will be by sequence of return risk.
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An excellent read and an excellent reminder that life changes do happen. Frankly in a 50 year span, we should all expect some drastic life changes to happen pretty regularly.
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I personally feel there is little point in picking over someone's ended marriage to analyze causes.
I'll disagree. If we can see parts of someone else's life that are similar to ours, then we can hopefully learn from their failures (not sure if that's the best word, but I couldn't think of a better one) and reduce our chances of having a similar fate.
From the way sui generis interpreted it, I can see parallels to my own marriage.
What a roller coaster! The thing that struck me the most was the surprise that he has the same syndrome Tanja Hester/Our Next Life does, and these two FIRE people are the sum total of the two times I've heard of it. Pretty wild, and very sad, coincidence. Having read a few things from TH about expected life spans and QOL, I was extra sad for both of them.
I recognize so much in what he has written. My life, including the financial aspect, would change a lot if my relationship ended as well (I already know exactly how and what I would do, but the point is it is life changing for sure). Wondering about purpose and isolation. On the other hand, I've always felt strongly that connections and roots can come from outside a workplace as much as in, and I wonder if his ex would have been more satisfied if she had put down some more roots in new activities and communities (not geographic, but hobby/cultural/volunteer) where she would have had more diverse "Joneses" to keep up with and compare herself to. By the time they were discussing this and he was suggesting that, it seemed far too late. I do think it's has been critical for me to have done that (even though sometimes I lament I've gone too far and want to pull up some of my roots and be more isolated!) and I even worry if I moved to a new city, state or country, having to do that all over again could be a daunting task. It's so critical, but it isn't easy. I do believe we all always need to be building our own communities and relationships. Staying in the same job forever can fool you about this because the community is provided for you and you may not have to work as hard at it. Retiring early has actually kept me on my toes about this and I'm hyperaware of cultivating paths for my future and thinking about how things might change out from under me in the next 3-4 decades. I definitely don't think things will be static nor do they feel that way AT ALL, as his ex seems to have experienced.
And the projects and networks I've built in my RE can conveniently be framed into a story of "moving" and successes and "going somewhere" for the crowd that just doesn't get early retirement. I don't love doing it, it feels a bit icky, but it's nice to be able to "speak that language" if I need to and remind myself that it's all about framing and perception for everyone. There's a lot of comparing their own insides to everyone else's outsides in that blog post. It's natural with humans, but absolutely devastating.
My wife doesn't have hobbies or friends outside of work. I've attempted to encourage her to find those things, but she just hasn't. If we both just stopped working, I'd have plenty to keep myself occupied, but she wouldn't.
Dr. Doom's post and our subsequent "post-mortem" here have given me a lot to think about and plan for.
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I personally feel there is little point in picking over someone's ended marriage to analyze causes.
I'll disagree. If we can see parts of someone else's life that are similar to ours, then we can hopefully learn from their failures (not sure if that's the best word, but I couldn't think of a better one) and reduce our chances of having a similar fate.
From the way sui generis interpreted it, I can see parallels to my own marriage.
What a roller coaster! The thing that struck me the most was the surprise that he has the same syndrome Tanja Hester/Our Next Life does, and these two FIRE people are the sum total of the two times I've heard of it. Pretty wild, and very sad, coincidence. Having read a few things from TH about expected life spans and QOL, I was extra sad for both of them.
I recognize so much in what he has written. My life, including the financial aspect, would change a lot if my relationship ended as well (I already know exactly how and what I would do, but the point is it is life changing for sure). Wondering about purpose and isolation. On the other hand, I've always felt strongly that connections and roots can come from outside a workplace as much as in, and I wonder if his ex would have been more satisfied if she had put down some more roots in new activities and communities (not geographic, but hobby/cultural/volunteer) where she would have had more diverse "Joneses" to keep up with and compare herself to. By the time they were discussing this and he was suggesting that, it seemed far too late. I do think it's has been critical for me to have done that (even though sometimes I lament I've gone too far and want to pull up some of my roots and be more isolated!) and I even worry if I moved to a new city, state or country, having to do that all over again could be a daunting task. It's so critical, but it isn't easy. I do believe we all always need to be building our own communities and relationships. Staying in the same job forever can fool you about this because the community is provided for you and you may not have to work as hard at it. Retiring early has actually kept me on my toes about this and I'm hyperaware of cultivating paths for my future and thinking about how things might change out from under me in the next 3-4 decades. I definitely don't think things will be static nor do they feel that way AT ALL, as his ex seems to have experienced.
And the projects and networks I've built in my RE can conveniently be framed into a story of "moving" and successes and "going somewhere" for the crowd that just doesn't get early retirement. I don't love doing it, it feels a bit icky, but it's nice to be able to "speak that language" if I need to and remind myself that it's all about framing and perception for everyone. There's a lot of comparing their own insides to everyone else's outsides in that blog post. It's natural with humans, but absolutely devastating.
My wife doesn't have hobbies or friends outside of work. I've attempted to encourage her to find those things, but she just hasn't. If we both just stopped working, I'd have plenty to keep myself occupied, but she wouldn't.
Dr. Doom's post and our subsequent "post-mortem" here have given me a lot to think about and plan for.
Oh, Doom's post is useful. I don't think the nitpicking and assumptions here are useful.
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Yes I’m not sure the word “failure” belongs anywhere in this thread. Sure, a marriage can fail but that happens all the time anyway regardless of whether someone has achieved FIRE, is working towards FIRE or doesn’t even know FIRE exists. I appreciate differences in desired and perceived lifestyle were obviously a major problem in this case.
It always sounded to me (having previously read the entire blog) that Dr Doom had some really tough working environments. He achieved FIRE, experienced some really happy years post FIRE, and because of having such a large stash behind him, he’s been able to easily adapt his plans to accommodate a different level of expenses, a new relationship and health issues. That sounds extremely successful to me! Very well done.
It reinforces to me:
1. How difficult it is to estimate future expenses. As our FIRE numbers, investment strategies, and potential timelines all hang off of this it really is a key area to attempt to understand. In addition, as the years pass, inflation rates may differ between expense categories and unknown expenses that don’t exist, are created, go on to become wants, and finally assimilate into needs e.g. mobile phones. These all throw further complications into this process. It’s not an exact science.
2. The power of part time work. I appreciate not everyone has the opportunity, but part time work once 20-25X expenses have been achieved (and before too but I’m cautious) really helps in so many ways. It provides daily/weekly structure, it eases the problem of expense levels changing over the years, it minimises sequence of returns risk, and it won’t necessarily make someone feel quite as different to their friends if that’s important to them. It facilitates the prioritisation of physical and mental health earlier and allows someone to develop wider interests outside of being dominated by one particular job. The stash also means someone can quit that job without worry if the environment changes to be unpleasant.
I’d certainly be interested in the decision around why Dr. Doom chose his old career and at full time. Presumably that’s so he can hit his new FI number at the earliest opportunity which completely makes sense. It would be interesting if he considered part time or a different field or both though.
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Damn, that was hard to read for myriad reasons but he is such a good writer. Humans are complex and need varying levels of <insert any relevant noun: structure, compassion, communication, etc.> which changes over time. Glad he is willing to shed some light on some of the more underscored parts of humanity.
While following along gave me micro-bouts of anxiety with regard to certain passages, I'd view it as a huge win not only for the FIRE community but for any adult with agency (or trying to have agency) over the direction of their life. As mentioned by others, divorce and health are two potential sources of derailment to financial and life's plans. Nice to see someone come out on the other side not only surviving but thriving!
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Wow, that was such a thought-provoking post. I'm so glad he updated.
As far as the relationship, a phenomenon I have experienced is not even realizing I am censoring myself, communication wise until I was with someone who is a better fit. With a past partner, I thought had good communication but it turns out I was subconsciously censoring a lot of my true thoughts. Now, it freely flows with my current partner. I had no awareness I was doing it until I was out of it and experiencing something else.
I'd say it's probably the shared values thing for sure, it took me a while to find someone with similar core values and then I finally felt the difference. Don't even know if that makes sense but I got that vibe from his post as well.
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I'm not sure I ever read this blog before and I feel very bad for my past self as I think I really missed out. (I read FIRE blogs
obsessively extensively in the years this blog appears to have been active.)
I found reading this post very illuminating and I think I will be doing a lot of journaling and thinking on the topics raised. Both my significant other and myself achieved FIRE independently, and we have both started small businesses since we quit our careers. I hope our businesses will be helpful to us in finding meaning/having purpose, and with our ability to keep relating to our social circles. And of course the extra income won't hurt in the event of unexpected medical expenses.
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OP: Thanks for posting......otherwise I would have missed it.
I appreciate Dr Doom's straight-forward and entertaining communication style. It's unfortunate how his long-term relationship didn't work out, but it sounds like he worked through the various challenges and has come out as good or better than before.
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Thanks for posting. Oftentimes the stories where things don't go as planned are as informative or more informative than the smooth sailing stories.
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I was so excited when I got the email notification yesterday. I always loved his blog. I was not expecting that rollar coaster of emotions. But, I have to admit, it was also reassuring to hear from someone I trusted to share his experience. The biggest take away for me was that with life you never 'arrive' at any spot for long. Life is unpredictable and how well you cope and adjust to those changes is what defines success. Resiliency is the ultimate life skill.
I appreciated that Dr. Doom allowed us to see someone acknowledge and embrace hard events, both those within and beyond their control. My two biggest fears with deciding to pull the trigger on FIRE was what would happen if my cancer came back or if something happened to my partner. What I am taking away from this, is not that you have to hope for no major health issues or changed relationships to succeed, you just have to be willing to acknowldge the impact of those and adjust. Be dilligent, but also nimble.
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I think there is some unnecessary judgment of the wife in this thread - noting that we have not heard her side of the story. It may have been that she is one of those people for whom work or the appearance of work gives much meaning (I am definitely not one of them but I know plenty of smart, genuine people who just love working). Or it may have been that she wasn't happy with their level of lifestyle which I take it was relatively modest. Someone mentioned "going out for dinner-movie-shopping" and while that is something I might only do 3-4 times a year, if my budget fell below the level where I could do it on a whim, I'd be dissatisfied too. If my budget fell below the level where I couldn't make a significant purchase on a whim to please myself, I'd be dissatisfied. Let me repeat that this is not a moral failing.
Didn't he say they kept separate finances? Presumably she was free to spend hers as she wished. To go the other way, maybe his diagnosis was part of her decision to exit. It happens.
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Thanks, that was a great read. It's helped to validate the choice of my partner and I to keep our finances separate, which we recently finalized in a prenuptial agreement. She has not shown the same amount of interest in being FIRE'd early in life (still 4+ years out for me), and I'm completely OK with that. At the same time, we are both frugal people who save more than we spend, and who are not interested in idealized deception via Facebook/Instagram or keeping up with the Jones's, so it seems we are more compatible than the author and his first marriage. I want her to find a career that she loves and am prepared to travel wherever to make that happen. But if things do not work out between us, then at least we will not be so entangled as to cause a financial crisis at divorce.
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Awesome post from Dr Doom. It’s great to have a real-life update from the other side of FIRE.
Just proves that when we think we have a plan and are in control it’s only an illusion.
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Awesome post from Dr Doom. It’s great to have a real-life update from the other side of FIRE.
Just proves that when we think we have a plan and are in control it’s only an illusion.
Plans don't predict the future, they only guide decisions in the present.
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A good read, and a sobering reminder that many more a financial plan will be wrecked by a change in health and/or circumstances than ever will be by sequence of return risk.
I'd also add that if you are in a good position it's easier to recover. That story to me definitely isn't a failure. To me that was how life can go. All you can do is adapt to whatever situation occurs in the future.
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Awesome post from Dr Doom. It’s great to have a real-life update from the other side of FIRE.
Just proves that when we think we have a plan and are in control it’s only an illusion.
Plans don't predict the future, they only guide decisions in the present.
It also reinforces how all the conversations on a financial safety level miss the point. You make your best decision at the time and enjoy the ride as much as possible.
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Awesome post from Dr Doom. It’s great to have a real-life update from the other side of FIRE.
Just proves that when we think we have a plan and are in control it’s only an illusion.
Plans don't predict the future, they only guide decisions in the present.
It also reinforces how all the conversations on a financial safety level miss the point. You make your best decision at the time and enjoy the ride as much as possible.
Yes, I constantly harp on about this in WR threads. Personal real life risks are so much more likely and profound than market risks that might make a 4% WR "fail". Life happens. As nereo quotes me in his signature, you can't Boglehead your way to total security. Life can and will happen. That's what life is, the shit that happens and how you respond to it.
It's not like you reach an arbitrary savings goal and then suddenly life is safe, forever and ever, amen.
Post FIRE life is just different, with different options. That's all. It's still risk-laden normal old life though.
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Post FIRE life is just different, with different options. That's all. It's still risk-laden normal old life though.
I call it the law of conservation of anxiety - when one anxiety vanishes it is replaced with a different but equally valid anxiety :-)
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I think everyone is missing the true winner and happy ending from this story, the humble librarian!
No savings, low earning potential, and she has landed the mighty Dr. Doom!
Set for a sweet life of FI, being taken around the world and provided for, I think there should be a special section of this forum created not just for those seeking fire, but also those seeking those who are already fire, the work already done!
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A good read, and a sobering reminder that many more a financial plan will be wrecked by a change in health and/or circumstances than ever will be by sequence of return risk.
I'd also add that if you are in a good position it's easier to recover. That story to me definitely isn't a failure. To me that was how life can go. All you can do is adapt to whatever situation occurs in the future.
This ^. And +1 to everything Malcat said. To me this story isn't a failure at all. Just an accounting of some stuff life threw at him and how he responded. To me it sounds like he's dealing with it well. His new relationship sounds great -- a big win for him.
His health problems are not good news, but -- there are a lot worse things to be diagnosed with. I have a good friend with Ehlers-Danlos, and two of her three kids have it too. It's highly variable so it's difficult to generalize, but for them (hyperelasticity version of ED) it's nowhere near a death sentence. It's a chronic thing that they live with. Sounds like Doom has educated himself, is taking care of it, and is getting on with his life. That's a win.
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Set for a sweet life of FI, being taken around the world and provided for, I think there should be a special section of this forum created not just for those seeking fire, but also those seeking those who are already fire, the work already done!
Hello there and welcome. You might like this board (https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/post-fire/).
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Yes I’m not sure the word “failure” belongs anywhere in this thread. Sure, a marriage can fail but that happens all the time anyway regardless of whether someone has achieved FIRE, is working towards FIRE or doesn’t even know FIRE exists. I appreciate differences in desired and perceived lifestyle were obviously a major problem in this case.
It always sounded to me (having previously read the entire blog) that Dr Doom had some really tough working environments. He achieved FIRE, experienced some really happy years post FIRE, and because of having such a large stash behind him, he’s been able to easily adapt his plans to accommodate a different level of expenses, a new relationship and health issues. That sounds extremely successful to me! Very well done.
Totally agree that this isn't a failure of FIRE.
Even when a relationship ends, that isn't necessarily a failure. Sticking around in a relationship that no longer works for everyone isn't good. Relationships can be fantastic at a certain stage in life and then no longer fit as people change. A relationship that has no pleasant moments is a failure: a relationship that has years of delight and happiness but then stops working could be considered a qualified success.
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Post FIRE life is just different, with different options. That's all. It's still risk-laden normal old life though.
I call it the law of conservation of anxiety - when one anxiety vanishes it is replaced with a different but equally valid anxiety :-)
Well sure, if you have anxiety problems.
On the flip side, if you don't, it means that the challenges you've learned to handle all along will help equip you to handle whatever challenges come in the future.
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What a roller coaster! The thing that struck me the most was the surprise that he has the same syndrome Tanja Hester/Our Next Life does, and these two FIRE people are the sum total of the two times I've heard of it. Pretty wild, and very sad, coincidence. Having read a few things from TH about expected life spans and QOL, I was extra sad for both of them.
It's a funny one. ED is actually very common among autistic people.* And I've always thought there are probably a lot of autistic people in the FIRE community because (a) it makes you arguably less focused on being the same as other people, because you just can't - so keeping up with the Joneses is probably less of an impulse** and (b) the social and sensory demands of keeping a job and the level of masking required to do it successfully over a long period are very draining.
So basically the push away from work is stronger, and the opposing push away from being seen as a bit of a freak is arguably also a bit weaker.
Anyway, I'm obviously not saying that Doom or Tanja are autistic.*** But on the other hand there do seem to be some links between ED/hEDS and what could be termed certain "personality types" that might be more attracted to and suited to FIRE.
*https://www.autism.org/researchers-have-identified-a-relationship-between-ehlers-danlos-syndrome-and-autism/
** I've qualified this because I did once talk to an autistic person (coincidentally who also has hEDS) who said this wasn't true for her: because she was always trying to fit in all the ways that she could to be accepted, so she had suffered from trying to "keep up with the Joneses" financially when she was younger). But on average I think autistic people are very used to being viewed as weird and different, so maybe it makes it a bit easier to accept being different financially too.
*** Editing to add: I'm also not saying that they're not. As somebody who realised late I am probably autistic myself I know from painful experience it can be very difficult to tell from the outside!
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What a roller coaster! The thing that struck me the most was the surprise that he has the same syndrome Tanja Hester/Our Next Life does, and these two FIRE people are the sum total of the two times I've heard of it. Pretty wild, and very sad, coincidence. Having read a few things from TH about expected life spans and QOL, I was extra sad for both of them.
It's a funny one. ED is actually very common among autistic people.* And I've always thought there are probably a lot of autistic people in the FIRE community because (a) it makes you arguably less focused on being the same as other people, because you just can't - so keeping up with the Joneses is probably less of an impulse** and (b) the social and sensory demands of keeping a job and the level of masking required to do it successfully over a long period are very draining.
So basically the push away from work is stronger, and the opposing push away from being seen as a bit of a freak is arguably also a bit weaker.
Anyway, I'm obviously not saying that Doom or Tanja are autistic. But on the other hand there do seem to be some links between ED/hEDS and what could be termed certain "personality types" that might be more attracted to and suited to FIRE.
*https://www.autism.org/researchers-have-identified-a-relationship-between-ehlers-danlos-syndrome-and-autism/
** I've qualified this because I did once talk to an autistic person (coincidentally who also has hEDS) who said this wasn't true for her: because she was always trying to fit in all the ways that she could to be accepted, so she had suffered from trying to "keep up with the Joneses" financially when she was younger). But on average I think autistic people are very used to being viewed as weird and different, so maybe it makes it a bit easier to accept being different financially too.
Personally, I think that if there's any correlation between EDS and FIRE, it's that people are born with EDS and are aware their entire lives that there's something wrong with their bodies, so they might intuitively be less inclined to depend on a career that lasts several decades, especially as they start getting older and build up damage.
At least that's my case. I always doubted if I would be able to work full time until my 60s, so I specifically chose a career that would make part time work feasible, and focused on financial goals from day one so that I would be as secure as possible if my health failed. Which it did at 37, less than 10 years into my career.
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Wow, that article was certainly thought-provoking, as is this thread. DW and I had a good discussion about it last night. A few key takeaways for me:
- A life full of preferred leisure activities, without goals, work, accomplishments, etc, can feel unfulfilling or stagnant. (and definitely WILL for me)
- When DW and I retire, DW is definitely going to need some time and resources to reestablish her own identity. At that point, she will have been a SAHM for 28 years.
- While DW will need some time to reconstitute herself, I have so many hobbies and interests and "things I want to accomplish" that I doubt I'll ever feel bored or stagnant.
- If I manage to FIRE before all the kids have grown, it gets tricky, because even though I could retire, we can't retire. So we will definitely need to make a plan for that.
- I need to do a better job of understanding and fulfilling DW's needs, and making sure our relationship is strong without extrinsic forces (e.g. as Malcat said, children and cost of divorce).
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That was a powerful read, and I'm really thankful for it. It's a reminder to me, as someone who is single, to really learn about my own expectations. If I do get married, it will be important to communicate those expectations.
Sad to see a marriage of 20 years fall apart like that, but I'm glad Doom is moving forward. Some people just can't handle that void. You really need self awareness to understand your expectations from FIRE.
There is still a lot of pressure placed on men to be breadwinners or to have some sort of social status. Although his ex-wife's motives are unclear, I'm definitely curious about how it seems she was more bothered about him not working than her not working. Some people take those old gender roles to heart, and may not realize it? Not everybody is like that of course, but it puts me on edge a little. Note to self: find someone who does not expect me to have a social ranking derived from career :D . I suspect I will probably "retire" to low-paid occupations that are deeply interesting to me.
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Oh, Doom's post is useful. I don't think the nitpicking and assumptions here are useful.
Yep. this. I could *like* this a million times.
I felt similarly when people were trying to dissect MMM's relationship.
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There is still a lot of pressure placed on men to be breadwinners or to have some sort of social status. Although his ex-wife's motives are unclear, I'm definitely curious about how it seems she was more bothered about him not working than her not working. Some people take those old gender roles to heart, and may not realize it?
To me, it sounds like it was more an issue of potentially awkward social interactions, like "Hi Mrs.Doom, how is work? <conversation continues> And what is Dr. Doom up to? Oh, he's just lazing about the house while you're bringing home the bacon?" Even if the Doom family are comfortable with their standard of living, having a lifestyle (retired, childless, young, and IMO aimless) that differs so dramatically from the norm (jobs, kids, purpose in life) is going to make socializing more difficult.
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Echoing others. Good read. Very sobering.
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Oh, Doom's post is useful. I don't think the nitpicking and assumptions here are useful.
Yep. this. I could *like* this a million times.
I felt similarly when people were trying to dissect MMM's relationship.
Exactly. People picked apart the billion ways FIRE could have contributed to their divorce because that's the main facet of his life that we're exposed to. Marriages end for endless reasons, and the broad strokes of people's life choices are a very small part of the puzzle. One couple might thrive in FIRE, another might crumble, and yet another might crumble as well, but for wildly different reasons.
Nobody divorces because of life circumstances, they divorce because of how they collectively handle those life circumstances as a team.
Doom has volunteered a lot of his personal perspective on the conflicts and communication issues that occurred while his marriage broke down, none of that means we understand what caused their divorce. We have a small glimpse of the *symptoms* of their marital discord. That's it.
When my ex fiance left me he cited numerous "reasons" why I wasn't right for him, numerous things he felt he wanted from his ideal partner that I just wasn't delivering. He then immediately settled down with a woman he cheated on me with, who was almost exactly like me on paper, who didn't offer anything on his list of wants where I was "lacking". However, I'm extremely assertive and she's extremely demure, and he simply didn't want an assertive partner. He's been with her for nearly 15 years and has two adorable children. Dude had no idea what he wanted until he found it.
He didn't leave me for any of the reasons that he believed he did, and he wasn't looking for anything that he believed he wanted, he just wasn't happy with me and over time found excuses to find me wanting. His reasons weren't rational, they were rationalizations.
Who knows what's actually behind ex-Mrs. Doom's marital dissatisfaction, and who knows if any of her complaints or "reasons" actually have anything to do with her actual unmet needs. All we know is that she had unmet needs, and she manifested a way to leave a marriage that wasn't meeting them.
Doom could possibly have no clue what her honest motivations were, even she might have not really known at the time. I know for me that I've sometimes had to leave relationships before I could fully understand what actually wasn't working for me. I've seen this from countless people who gained enormous insight about their own relationships *after* they ended.
Regardless, that's why I think post-morteming strangers' marriages is useless, and usually misleading, because the reasons people give for relationship dissatisfaction are typically only a very, very small part of the real problem.
It's a popular running joke in my family that my ex left me because I don't play a musical instrument. Seriously, that was one of the major reasons he cited for us not being right for each other. It still elicits roaring laughter at family dinners.
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There is still a lot of pressure placed on men to be breadwinners or to have some sort of social status. Although his ex-wife's motives are unclear, I'm definitely curious about how it seems she was more bothered about him not working than her not working. Some people take those old gender roles to heart, and may not realize it?
To me, it sounds like it was more an issue of potentially awkward social interactions, like "Hi Mrs.Doom, how is work? <conversation continues> And what is Dr. Doom up to? Oh, he's just lazing about the house while you're bringing home the bacon?" Even if the Doom family are comfortable with their standard of living, having a lifestyle (retired, childless, young, and IMO aimless) that differs so dramatically from the norm (jobs, kids, purpose in life) is going to make socializing more difficult.
If you phrased it that way, sure, but there's no reason why it would have to be awkward.
Person: "Hi Mrs. Doom, how is work?"
Mrs Doom: "Work is great! I retired for a bit, but found I missed it"
Person: "What's Mr. Doom up to?"
Mrs Doom: "He did not miss work, so he's still up to his usual projects [Optional additional info] It's actually great that he retired so young because he was diagnosed with a rare genetic disorder, so it's been wonderful that he doesn't have to worry about work, and can focus on his health"
Person: "Oh, is he okay?"
Mrs Doom: "Oh yeah, it's not a progressive illness, so as long as he focuses on his health and exercise, he'll probably stay healthier than everyone else. As I said, it really worked out that he was able to retire. Besides, he's so happy now, it's a lot of fun to come home to after work"
See? Not awkward if the person talking doesn't believe it's awkward.
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A good read, and a sobering reminder that many more a financial plan will be wrecked by a change in health and/or circumstances than ever will be by sequence of return risk.
I'd also add that if you are in a good position it's easier to recover. That story to me definitely isn't a failure. To me that was how life can go. All you can do is adapt to whatever situation occurs in the future.
That is absolutely a given. Having strong finances is an advantage no matter what life throws at you.
He absolutely did not fail financially - as he said, his net worth has actually increased in real terms! that is financial success, not failure.
But finances are only one aspect of a life well lived, and he was starting to fall short in other aspects.
The old saying.. money can bring you comfort and a high standard of living, but it can't buy you happiness or give meaning to your life.
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There is still a lot of pressure placed on men to be breadwinners or to have some sort of social status. Although his ex-wife's motives are unclear, I'm definitely curious about how it seems she was more bothered about him not working than her not working. Some people take those old gender roles to heart, and may not realize it?
To me, it sounds like it was more an issue of potentially awkward social interactions, like "Hi Mrs.Doom, how is work? <conversation continues> And what is Dr. Doom up to? Oh, he's just lazing about the house while you're bringing home the bacon?" Even if the Doom family are comfortable with their standard of living, having a lifestyle (retired, childless, young, and IMO aimless) that differs so dramatically from the norm (jobs, kids, purpose in life) is going to make socializing more difficult.
If you phrased it that way, sure, but there's no reason why it would have to be awkward.
Person: "Hi Mrs. Doom, how is work?"
Mrs Doom: "Work is great! I retired for a bit, but found I missed it"
Person: "What's Mr. Doom up to?"
Mrs Doom: "He did not miss work, so he's still up to his usual projects [Optional additional info] It's actually great that he retired so young because he was diagnosed with a rare genetic disorder, so it's been wonderful that he doesn't have to worry about work, and can focus on his health"
Person: "Oh, is he okay?"
Mrs Doom: "Oh yeah, it's not a progressive illness, so as long as he focuses on his health and exercise, he'll probably stay healthier than everyone else. As I said, it really worked out that he was able to retire. Besides, he's so happy now, it's a lot of fun to come home to after work"
See? Not awkward if the person talking doesn't believe it's awkward.
And that's the kind of thing a good therapist could have helped her with. If he couldn't get her to talk to him or get professional help, my guess is that there probably wasn't anything he could have done differently to save things despite his human tendency toward self-blame.
One takeaway may be how much damage is done by the stigma around mental health care.
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There is still a lot of pressure placed on men to be breadwinners or to have some sort of social status. Although his ex-wife's motives are unclear, I'm definitely curious about how it seems she was more bothered about him not working than her not working. Some people take those old gender roles to heart, and may not realize it?
To me, it sounds like it was more an issue of potentially awkward social interactions, like "Hi Mrs.Doom, how is work? <conversation continues> And what is Dr. Doom up to? Oh, he's just lazing about the house while you're bringing home the bacon?" Even if the Doom family are comfortable with their standard of living, having a lifestyle (retired, childless, young, and IMO aimless) that differs so dramatically from the norm (jobs, kids, purpose in life) is going to make socializing more difficult.
If you phrased it that way, sure, but there's no reason why it would have to be awkward.
Person: "Hi Mrs. Doom, how is work?"
Mrs Doom: "Work is great! I retired for a bit, but found I missed it"
Person: "What's Mr. Doom up to?"
Mrs Doom: "He did not miss work, so he's still up to his usual projects [Optional additional info] It's actually great that he retired so young because he was diagnosed with a rare genetic disorder, so it's been wonderful that he doesn't have to worry about work, and can focus on his health"
Person: "Oh, is he okay?"
Mrs Doom: "Oh yeah, it's not a progressive illness, so as long as he focuses on his health and exercise, he'll probably stay healthier than everyone else. As I said, it really worked out that he was able to retire. Besides, he's so happy now, it's a lot of fun to come home to after work"
See? Not awkward if the person talking doesn't believe it's awkward.
And that's the kind of thing a good therapist could have helped her with. If he couldn't get her to talk to him or get professional help, my guess is that there probably wasn't anything he could have done differently to save things despite his human tendency toward self-blame.
One takeaway may be how much damage is done by the stigma around mental health care.
True, but just to be absolutely clear, I wasn't actually commenting on how I felt Mrs Doom should have handled things, I don't know her and have virtually no opinion about her. I was just using the Dooms as a theoretical example of how a woman in that situation isn't by default in any position to feel awkward.
I was simply replying to the pp who seemed to be implying that his retirement would make socializing for her awkward. I was countering that if the wife didn't feel awkward herself, there would be no awkwardness talking about a retired spouse.
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If you phrased it that way, sure, but there's no reason why it would have to be awkward.
Person: "Hi Mrs. Doom, how is work?"
Mrs Doom: "Work is great! I retired for a bit, but found I missed it"
Person: "What's Mr. Doom up to?"
Mrs Doom: "He did not miss work, so he's still up to his usual projects [Optional additional info] It's actually great that he retired so young because he was diagnosed with a rare genetic disorder, so it's been wonderful that he doesn't have to worry about work, and can focus on his health"
Person: "Oh, is he okay?"
Mrs Doom: "Oh yeah, it's not a progressive illness, so as long as he focuses on his health and exercise, he'll probably stay healthier than everyone else. As I said, it really worked out that he was able to retire. Besides, he's so happy now, it's a lot of fun to come home to after work"
See? Not awkward if the person talking doesn't believe it's awkward.
And that's the kind of thing a good therapist could have helped her with. If he couldn't get her to talk to him or get professional help, my guess is that there probably wasn't anything he could have done differently to save things despite his human tendency toward self-blame.
One takeaway may be how much damage is done by the stigma around mental health care.
True, but just to be absolutely clear, I wasn't actually commenting on how I felt Mrs Doom should have handled things, I don't know her and have virtually no opinion about her. I was just using the Dooms as a theoretical example of how a woman in that situation isn't by default in any position to feel awkward.
I was simply replying to the pp who seemed to be implying that his retirement would make socializing for her awkward. I was countering that if the wife didn't feel awkward herself, there would be no awkwardness talking about a retired spouse.
That's a fair point, and one worth exploring. Things are embarrassing or awkward only if you judge your own choices or situation by someone else's expectations or by the version of their life you can see. If you accept that your choices, circumstances, abilities, motivations, or lifestyle are out-of-the-ordinary, and you're comfortable with them, then there's no need to be embarrassed. If others judge you because your spouse is taking time off work to deal with health issues, that's their problem, not yours. Let them live in their petty misery of working a job they don't like so they can buy things they don't need in order to impress people they don't like, as the saying goes.
Like my baldness: "Yup, I started going bald at age 30. I definitely look better with it shaved!" Or my rusty, 25-year-old car: "Hey, now--this baby's been with us since before we were married. Isn't that awesome?" Or, FIRE (someday, for me): "Yeah, we budgeted carefully, worked our tails off, invested wisely, and now we have enough that we don't have to work."
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quote author=zolotiyeruki link=topic=121408.msg2811015#msg2811015 date=1616181619]
If you phrased it that way, sure, but there's no reason why it would have to be awkward.
Person: "Hi Mrs. Doom, how is work?"
Mrs Doom: "Work is great! I retired for a bit, but found I missed it"
Person: "What's Mr. Doom up to?"
Mrs Doom: "He did not miss work, so he's still up to his usual projects [Optional additional info] It's actually great that he retired so young because he was diagnosed with a rare genetic disorder, so it's been wonderful that he doesn't have to worry about work, and can focus on his health"
Person: "Oh, is he okay?"
Mrs Doom: "Oh yeah, it's not a progressive illness, so as long as he focuses on his health and exercise, he'll probably stay healthier than everyone else. As I said, it really worked out that he was able to retire. Besides, he's so happy now, it's a lot of fun to come home to after work"
See? Not awkward if the person talking doesn't believe it's awkward.
And that's the kind of thing a good therapist could have helped her with. If he couldn't get her to talk to him or get professional help, my guess is that there probably wasn't anything he could have done differently to save things despite his human tendency toward self-blame.
One takeaway may be how much damage is done by the stigma around mental health care.
True, but just to be absolutely clear, I wasn't actually commenting on how I felt Mrs Doom should have handled things, I don't know her and have virtually no opinion about her. I was just using the Dooms as a theoretical example of how a woman in that situation isn't by default in any position to feel awkward.
I was simply replying to the pp who seemed to be implying that his retirement would make socializing for her awkward. I was countering that if the wife didn't feel awkward herself, there would be no awkwardness talking about a retired spouse.
Ok. I misread. I was really only being judgmental about the resistance to therapy, anyway, and maybe not so specifically at her as in general. Also just saying that I detected a note of overly harsh self-criticism from him.
But I think some of the tendency to pick apart their story is a desire to figure out how we can avoid the same pitfalls. I know I have an underlying worry about how FIRE will affect my marriage and want to have an idea of what to watch out for. Being in the US, I know I'm concerned about planning for how medical bills could affect my finances. There may or may not be value in dissecting his struggles, but it definitely taps into worries I have when planning for FIRE.
That's a fair point, and one worth exploring. Things are embarrassing or awkward only if you judge your own choices or situation by someone else's expectations or by the version of their life you can see. If you accept that your choices, circumstances, abilities, motivations, or lifestyle are out-of-the-ordinary, and you're comfortable with them, then there's no need to be embarrassed. If others judge you because your spouse is taking time off work to deal with health issues, that's their problem, not yours. Let them live in their petty misery of working a job they don't like so they can buy things they don't need in order to impress people they don't like, as the saying goes.
Like my baldness: "Yup, I started going bald at age 30. I definitely look better with it shaved!" Or my rusty, 25-year-old car: "Hey, now--this baby's been with us since before we were married. Isn't that awesome?" Or, FIRE (someday, for me): "Yeah, we budgeted carefully, worked our tails off, invested wisely, and now we have enough that we don't have to work."
There's a lot of judgment about keeping up with the Joneses, but it's understandable to want to stay connected to the Joneses. When you take on a lifestyle and a set of values that is completely alien to so many of the people you know, it's going to make it harder to connect. Most of the people who post here are already just used to going against the grain, but that doesn't make it easy.
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I think sometimes in MMM land the assumption can be that going along with societal expectations and keeping up with the Joneses is always bad...but it's not; it's only bad if it's an unexamined choice.
I don't bicycle because I don't like biking.
I drive because I like driving.
I'm frugal because I like being frugal but sometimes I spend lavishly because I like it.
I generally don't buy showy things but sometimes I do, and that's okay too.
As long as those choices are examined choices then they are valid for the person in question. Dr Doom's wife may have made her own examined choices. There is no scope for criticism of that.
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Dr Doom's wife may have made her own examined choices. There is no scope for criticism of that.
Cheating in my opinion is the wrong thing to do. I couldn't care less if you choose to spend more money.
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Got back today to read the last part, after the turn-around point.
My spouse also spent 30k, making our combined total 60k /yr
i thought the 30k at the top of the page was pretty big, but made sense with all the travel mentioned.
60k? It strikes me as very weird to call it LEAN FIRE with so much FAT in the Post-FIRE
He rented, and I think he said the house they had been renting sold for $1.15 million last year. So it could be that they were paying $30k-$40k in rent alone each year. Maybe it was a spendypants house, or maybe housing costs are just high in that area. And if housing costs are high, it's likely that other costs are high as well.
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I appreciate Dr. Doom's honesty and introspection. I don't want to criticize his marriage in any way, but want to comment on one facet of retirement that may be related. I'm also introverted and don't have a ton of energy, but the description sounds a bit boring even to me, after a period of much-needed decompression. I'd get depressed if that's all I could look forward to too. They say you should retire to something. Its important to have things to look forward to in the future.
Though technically not retired, I didn't do paid work from Dec 2013 to Nov 2019. I never, ever missed the old job that I should have left a decade earlier in retrospect, but it absolutely drove me nuts that I felt like I wasn't where I should be in my life. I wasn't moving forward. I could have taken better advantage of the extra time I had, but feeling stuck like that made me feel really depressed. Now, I'm finally working full-time again, from home, and am much happier feeling like I am where I should be. I may retire in 5 years, or 11 years (when I turn 60 and qualify for extra retiree Healthcare $), or maybe later--I don't know. I'm just happy to be moving forward again. Suddenly, I have a lot more possibilities on the horizon.
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Got back today to read the last part, after the turn-around point.
My spouse also spent 30k, making our combined total 60k /yr
i thought the 30k at the top of the page was pretty big, but made sense with all the travel mentioned.
60k? It strikes me as very weird to call it LEAN FIRE with so much FAT in the Post-FIRE
He rented, and I think he said the house they had been renting sold for $1.15 million last year. So it could be that they were paying $30k-$40k in rent alone each year. Maybe it was a spendypants house, or maybe housing costs are just high in that area. And if housing costs are high, it's likely that other costs are high as well.
In the greater Boston area rents are easily in the $2-4k/month range for a house that would sell for 1mil. Even studios rent for $1100-1900 depending on quality and location. If they split the rent for a 3k per month house they’d both be spending $20k each on housing and utilities alone.
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I appreciate Dr. Doom's honesty and introspection. I don't want to criticize his marriage in any way, but want to comment on one facet of retirement that may be related. I'm also introverted and don't have a ton of energy, but the description sounds a bit boring even to me, after a period of much-needed decompression. I'd get depressed if that's all I could look forward to too. They say you should retire to something. Its important to have things to look forward to in the future.
Though technically not retired, I didn't do paid work from Dec 2013 to Nov 2019. I never, ever missed the old job that I should have left a decade earlier in retrospect, but it absolutely drove me nuts that I felt like I wasn't where I should be in my life. I wasn't moving forward. I could have taken better advantage of the extra time I had, but feeling stuck like that made me feel really depressed. Now, I'm finally working full-time again, from home, and am much happier feeling like I am where I should be. I may retire in 5 years, or 11 years (when I turn 60 and qualify for extra retiree Healthcare $), or maybe later--I don't know. I'm just happy to be moving forward again. Suddenly, I have a lot more possibilities on the horizon.
I don't know Dr. Doom very well -- and I don't know his ex-wife at all -- but he was describing his ex-wife in the sort of way that made her seem like she had no interests that she pursued, like he pursued writing. Retirement isn't just supposed to be sitting around doing nothing. It's supposed to be a time where you can pursue what you are truly passionate about or develop new interests. I know a lot of retirees who get into vintage computing, creating YouTube channels, becoming birders/hikers/campers/outdoorspeople in general, taking up crafting with a community of like-minded people, etc. I didn't see a lot of indication that his ex-wife was doing anything like that. Instead, she seemed to focus on "losing out" on materialistic living, which is an incredibly sad way of life.
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I appreciate Dr. Doom's honesty and introspection. I don't want to criticize his marriage in any way, but want to comment on one facet of retirement that may be related. I'm also introverted and don't have a ton of energy, but the description sounds a bit boring even to me, after a period of much-needed decompression. I'd get depressed if that's all I could look forward to too. They say you should retire to something. Its important to have things to look forward to in the future.
Though technically not retired, I didn't do paid work from Dec 2013 to Nov 2019. I never, ever missed the old job that I should have left a decade earlier in retrospect, but it absolutely drove me nuts that I felt like I wasn't where I should be in my life. I wasn't moving forward. I could have taken better advantage of the extra time I had, but feeling stuck like that made me feel really depressed. Now, I'm finally working full-time again, from home, and am much happier feeling like I am where I should be. I may retire in 5 years, or 11 years (when I turn 60 and qualify for extra retiree Healthcare $), or maybe later--I don't know. I'm just happy to be moving forward again. Suddenly, I have a lot more possibilities on the horizon.
I don't know Dr. Doom very well -- and I don't know his ex-wife at all -- but he was describing his ex-wife in the sort of way that made her seem like she had no interests that she pursued, like he pursued writing. Retirement isn't just supposed to be sitting around doing nothing. It's supposed to be a time where you can pursue what you are truly passionate about or develop new interests. I know a lot of retirees who get into vintage computing, creating YouTube channels, becoming birders/hikers/campers/outdoorspeople in general, taking up crafting with a community of like-minded people, etc. I didn't see a lot of indication that his ex-wife was doing anything like that. Instead, she seemed to focus on "losing out" on materialistic living, which is an incredibly sad way of life.
Who knows how well his writing represents her side or any sort of objective truth, but yes, I agree. I've never been on the "you have to retire TO something" bandwagon, but I do think you at least have to be intrepid enough to go out and find stuff even if you don't have something you are retiring to right away. In that way, I think early retirement can be a lot more challenging, like existentially AND practically, than having a job. No one's going to give you a set of duties or expectations that you can just go do and know you are fulfilling expectations (or "purpose"). You have to find that on your own. And it's a lot harder question to answer. Early retirement: not for the faint of heart!
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Dr. Doom was/is an inspiration, and I appreciate his honesty. Above all, it’s a reminder that not all decisions are forever. FIRE requires flexibility. He’s having to pivot, and I don’t consider this a failure. It’s life.
My SIL and BIL retired in their mid to late fifties. Everything seemed to be going fine for awhile, but then they moved from the small town where he had lived for 40 years and raised his sons (second marriage for him) to the university town where we live. They went from owning a house on a suburban lot to a modern condo. They hate it. Or maybe one of them does and is making the other miserable?!? We can’t quite tell. They cite not liking their condo, but allude to other things they’re missing. All in all, we don’t think it’s really about not liking the condo. It’s more existential than that... lacking purpose and identity and (we suspect) not communicating well.
So, I understand Dr. Doom... sometimes you find out you are not values-compatible with your partner.
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That was a good read!
I wish him the best.
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Considering MMM is also divorced, so divorce in FIRE could be a real problem.
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Considering MMM is also divorced, so divorce in FIRE could be a real problem.
There's two ways to interpret this
1: That divorce in FIRE could be a real problem because divorce is so common, and presents a HUGE financial risk to all retirees
2: FIRE increases the chances of divorce. Well, divorce is EXTREMELY common, so it's pretty silly to think that FIRE causes it. What FIRE can do is catalyze the breakdown of a marriage that was already fracturing, because major life changes of any sort do that, which is why home renovations so frequently trigger divorce.
Also, as I already pointed out, a lot of marriages stay together not because they're good marriages, but because neither spouse can comfortably afford divorce, so if a couple are comfortably FIREd, yes, they might be more likely to get divorced because they don't have financial pressure keeping them together.
However, a couple with a strong marriage with excellent communications skills and a solid foundation of shared values? They're not going to end up divorced just because they have more free time. That's absurd.
When discussing divorce, people always seem to make the logical error that the norm is that married people stay together and stay happy. That's simply not the truth. So we don't really need to go looking for exceptional reasons why couples divorce, because just normal day to day life leads to divorce.
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Agreed that divorce is a quite common outcome of marriages (and a nontrivial percentage of the marriages which don't end in divorce are made up of people who'd probably like to split but stay together for the kids or financial reasons).
Also while it can be really misleading to generalize from small numbers, it can be even more misleading to generalize from just trying to think which FIRE personalities have gotten divorced rather than which FIRE personalities have known martial statuses one way or another. I tried to remember FIRE personalities I've either read or heard of. Aside from the three mentioned above:
Jacob (ERE): Married and as far as I know still is.
GoCurryCracker: Married and as far as I know still is.
MadFIentist: Married (I had to google this) and as far as I know still is.
Jason Fieber (DGI/Mr. Free at 33): As far as I know never married.
Stoic Investor: Divorced prior to pursuing FI.
The Frugalwoods: As far as I know still married.
FinancialSamuri: Married and as far as I know still is.
That's where I ran out of names and my list likely reflects whoever was particularly active when I was still doing a lot more active learning about FIRE strategies (or has managed to create enough controversy they come up frequently on this forum). But if one were interested the list could obviously be expanded significantly.
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Early retirement is a pretty radical change in situation. I could easily see this sort of change leading to a lot of introspection/self questioning that there simply wasn't time for before . . . and wouldn't be surprised if this often ends up leading to divorce. It depends strongly on the relationship of course.
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Early retirement is a pretty radical change in situation. I could easily see this sort of change leading to a lot of introspection/self questioning that there simply wasn't time for before . . . and wouldn't be surprised if this often ends up leading to divorce. It depends strongly on the relationship of course.
Exactly, any major life change will reveal fault lines in a marriage, but no marriage can avoid major life changes forever. A really solid marriage will likely thrive in FIRE as it provides more freedom to build a future collaboratively.
My early retirement has been great for my marriage.
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There's a lot of judgment about keeping up with the Joneses, but it's understandable to want to stay connected to the Joneses. When you take on a lifestyle and a set of values that is completely alien to so many of the people you know, it's going to make it harder to connect. Most of the people who post here are already just used to going against the grain, but that doesn't make it easy.
Fortunately or unfortunately our social circle includes a lot of "Joneses" with high incomes and commensurate spending....luxury cars, stay at home wives who go our to lunch multiple times a week and shopping is a hobby. They go out to high end dinners regularly as well. Always getting new home improvements (several have redone kit cheese recently to the tune of $125k not to mention bathrooms, patios, etc) but I digress. Anyway they are good fun people and our kids are friends with their kids (who also get best of everything) but we don't keep up (by design) but it still can have an effect on us, even me who doesn't care barely at all but my wife does to some extent and I care if she is feeling it.
Money is not endless and all that would certainly require way more, but we do participate in some of the outings (not all of them and nor would I want too) and accept that we drive older cars and aren't updating everything all the time (BTW when did kitchens become disposable?). It helps that we are probably somewhere between FIRE and Fat FIRE (whatever that means)
People here do regularly dismiss these circumstances such as just move or get new friends or tell DW to suck it up or whatever....and that is not how life works, Sure it can sometimes but there are tradeoffs to everything.
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Always "interesting" to see how different communities react to the idea of FIRE...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26543527
(Discussion on "6 years after FI and early retirement" (livingafi.com) aka Dr. Doom)
Thanks for posting this neo von retorch. I agree, it was fascinating to read the perception and discussion the same article prompted in a different community with different priors.
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There's a lot of judgment about keeping up with the Joneses, but it's understandable to want to stay connected to the Joneses. When you take on a lifestyle and a set of values that is completely alien to so many of the people you know, it's going to make it harder to connect. Most of the people who post here are already just used to going against the grain, but that doesn't make it easy.
Fortunately or unfortunately our social circle includes a lot of "Joneses" with high incomes and commensurate spending....luxury cars, stay at home wives who go our to lunch multiple times a week and shopping is a hobby. They go out to high end dinners regularly as well. Always getting new home improvements (several have redone kit cheese recently to the tune of $125k not to mention bathrooms, patios, etc) but I digress. Anyway they are good fun people and our kids are friends with their kids (who also get best of everything) but we don't keep up (by design) but it still can have an effect on us, even me who doesn't care barely at all but my wife does to some extent and I care if she is feeling it.
Money is not endless and all that would certainly require way more, but we do participate in some of the outings (not all of them and nor would I want too) and accept that we drive older cars and aren't updating everything all the time (BTW when did kitchens become disposable?). It helps that we are probably somewhere between FIRE and Fat FIRE (whatever that means)
People here do regularly dismiss these circumstances such as just move or get new friends or tell DW to suck it up or whatever....and that is not how life works, Sure it can sometimes but there are tradeoffs to everything.
Being different is always a challenge, and that shouldn't be underestimated, and people who struggle with it shouldn't be belittled, but it's a matter of judging which challenge is more worthwhile: adjusting to being different or earning and spending enough to try and keep up. Both paths can be difficult or easy, depending on the individual person, how easily they adjust to being different vs how easy it is for them to make enough money to keep up with their peers.
As a couple, this is where excellent communication skills come in, it's so important to be aligned in terms of priorities. If someone is truly invested in understanding their partner's needs, this kind of thing won't come as a surprise.
What stands out in Doom's post though is that he said his wife wanted *him* to go back to work so that she could spend more to fit in better with the lifestyles she envied, and she expressed that she didn't want to be with someone with serious health issues. To me, this indicates that she was already pretty checked out of her responsibilities in the marriage. Once a person starts to hold their partner responsible for their general happiness, that person isn't totally committed to their marriage. There's something off that they are avoiding dealing with, and this conflict was just the way it was manifesting.
I'm willing to bet that had he agreed to go back to work to inflate her lifestyle, she would still not have found the peace and happiness in her life that she was feeling was missing.
This doesn't sound like a story of a woman who was perfectly happy and content with her life until she and her partner retired and then kitchen-reno and luxury SUV envy suddenly single handedly destroyed her commitment to her otherwise happy and healthy marriage.
Point being, I wouldn't put too much weight into her "keeping up with the Joneses" urges compared to the countless other giant relationship red flags in the story, and that's based on a very limited, very one sided account. And even then, it's glaringly obvious that there was a lot going on in terms of individual emotional struggles as well as marital dynamics, well beyond what any of us has glean as very limited observers.
People are complicated, and so are the cumulative motivations behind their actions.
It's pretty safe to say though that no loving marriage ever ended solely over one partner suddenly wanting fancier crap.
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A good read, and a sobering reminder that many more a financial plan will be wrecked by a change in health and/or circumstances than ever will be by sequence of return risk.
Hope most who want to FIRE take risk into account when creating their plan. It's good to ask if you will have enough to cover a nursing home, death of spouse, loss of job, or becoming incapacitated. Everyone needs to decide on their own level of risk retention and what insurance they might need in order to cover the risk.
Agree it's sobering what he wrote, for me it wasn't the financial issues that were sobering, it's how quickly health, relationships, etc can change. If you have a solid plan and some built in flexibility, there is tons of hope.
When I met with our financial planner a few weeks ago, I asked, show me the worst worst case scenario...that allows me to breath better since my mind automatically goes to homelessness when that's not the reality.
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It's pretty safe to say though that no loving marriage ever ended solely over one partner suddenly wanting fancier crap.
No loving marriage includes secretly having sex with people other than your partner either. There were multiple signs of problems.
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It's pretty safe to say though that no loving marriage ever ended solely over one partner suddenly wanting fancier crap.
No loving marriage includes secretly having sex with people other than your partner either. There were multiple signs of problems.
Exactly.
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... (several have redone kit cheese recently to the tune of $125k ...
I mean, I like a good artisanal cheese as much as the next person, but that seems like a lot to spend on Gouda. :)
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... (several have redone kit cheese recently to the tune of $125k ...
I mean, I like a good artisanal cheese as much as the next person, but that seems like a lot to spend on Gouda. :)
I don't know. Spending all your cheddar on gouda seems like a good transaction to me.
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This is a good reminder that bloggers are not ubermensch. They're just people with opinions. FIRE bloggers are just people with opinions who have also managed to live on median income spending while making >> median income with nerdy software jobs.
Personal struggles are not an indictment against them. Your inability to measure up to the image they present is not an indictment against you. People are people.
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... (several have redone kit cheese recently to the tune of $125k ...
I mean, I like a good artisanal cheese as much as the next person, but that seems like a lot to spend on Gouda. :)
I don't know. Spending all your cheddar on gouda seems like a good transaction to me.
That joke is un-brie-lievably bad.
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I followed Dr. Doom the whole way and got inspiration from his blog. I just happened to stumble on this recent entry today and came over here to see who was chatting it up, not surprised to find a thread.
I am rooting for you Doomie. I am sorry for the many lies you had to endure before the truth came out with the cheating wife and I am glad you hit the exits and didn't long suffer the parade of bullshit that cheaters insist on dumping behind them. The fact she was not on board with even the potential of having to be a caretaker for your condition at some point is telling.
Cheers to you and Ms. Librarian for a happy future.
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... (several have redone kit cheese recently to the tune of $125k ...
I mean, I like a good artisanal cheese as much as the next person, but that seems like a lot to spend on Gouda. :)
I don't know. Spending all your cheddar on gouda seems like a good transaction to me.
That joke is un-brie-lievably bad.
Frigging Muenster size fingers.
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... (several have redone kit cheese recently to the tune of $125k ...
I mean, I like a good artisanal cheese as much as the next person, but that seems like a lot to spend on Gouda. :)
I don't know. Spending all your cheddar on gouda seems like a good transaction to me.
That joke is un-brie-lievably bad.
Frigging Muenster size fingers.
I think I've got a ques'o dementia. I stared at "kit cheese" for the longest time before I realized it was kitchen. Autocarrot strikes again.
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... (several have redone kit cheese recently to the tune of $125k ...
I mean, I like a good artisanal cheese as much as the next person, but that seems like a lot to spend on Gouda. :)
I don't know. Spending all your cheddar on gouda seems like a good transaction to me.
As along you get fumunda debt first.
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Adding to the list of FI bloggers with relationship status.
Justin (RootOfGood): still married
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... (several have redone kit cheese recently to the tune of $125k ...
I mean, I like a good artisanal cheese as much as the next person, but that seems like a lot to spend on Gouda. :)
I don't know. Spending all your cheddar on gouda seems like a good transaction to me.
As along you get fumunda debt first.
I can havarti believe how off topic this has gotten.
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... (several have redone kit cheese recently to the tune of $125k ...
I mean, I like a good artisanal cheese as much as the next person, but that seems like a lot to spend on Gouda. :)
I don't know. Spending all your cheddar on gouda seems like a good transaction to me.
As along you get fumunda debt first.
I can havarti believe how off topic this has gotten.
It makes me feel Bleu to be the reason it went off topic, I guess I will hunker down in my Cottage until it passes (unfortunately with cheese it takes a while).
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Always "interesting" to see how different communities react to the idea of FIRE...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26543527
(Discussion on "6 years after FI and early retirement" (livingafi.com) aka Dr. Doom)
I came across that discussion yesterday, thanks for posting it so I can complain about the comments.
Retirement police: check
You can't be frugal after your twenties: check
"Living in a big city means we can't retire early": check
You can't be fulfilled and motivated when retired: check
"99% of all retirees at any age end up doing nothing of note with their time": check
"He’s a fool limiting himself to 4% withdrawals": check
"Pretty suspicious how all these so-called FIREd bloggers earn money from their blogs": check
Apparent belief* that paid employment is the best possible way to spend most of your waking hours: check
*and associated extreme lack of creativity: really, the best way you can think to spend your life is a job
Then you do have some folks talking about how all these FIRE people are obsessed with quitting when really you just need balance, something in your life to center on other than work. They don't realize that the FIRE community already discusses this round the clock! (Often concluding that since work needn't be the center of your life, and you don't need to work cause you have a stash...you don't need to work, period.)
Not to mention all the people hating on the blog post author. E.g. because of his alleged contempt for "a normal lifestyle", when, as Malcat pointed out, his wife wanted him to go back to work so she could increase her spending / avoid dealing with his chronic illness.
Ok, rant over. Back to cheese puns.
EDIT: The commenters in the link are so grating, I'm feta up.
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Nice summary @314159 ^ -- those comments were super annoying. Such a skewed, negative view of FIRE.
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"Pretty suspicious how all these so-called FIREd bloggers earn money from their blogs": check
Never mind that Dr Doom is one of the few FIRE bloggers that hasn't monetized his blog...
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I came across that discussion yesterday, thanks for posting it so I can complain about the comments.
Retirement police: check
You can't be frugal after your twenties: check
"Living in a big city means we can't retire early": check
You can't be fulfilled and motivated when retired: check
"99% of all retirees at any age end up doing nothing of note with their time": check
"He’s a fool limiting himself to 4% withdrawals": check
"Pretty suspicious how all these so-called FIREd bloggers earn money from their blogs": check
Apparent belief* that paid employment is the best possible way to spend most of your waking hours: check
*and associated extreme lack of creativity: really, the best way you can think to spend your life is a job
Then you do have some folks talking about how all these FIRE people are obsessed with quitting when really you just need balance, something in your life to center on other than work. They don't realize that the FIRE community already discusses this round the clock! (Often concluding that since work needn't be the center of your life, and you don't need to work cause you have a stash...you don't need to work, period.)
Not to mention all the people hating on the blog post author. E.g. because of his alleged contempt for "a normal lifestyle", when, as Malcat pointed out, his wife wanted him to go back to work so she could increase her spending / avoid dealing with his chronic illness.
Ok, rant over. Back to cheese puns.
EDIT: The commenters in the link are so grating, I'm feta up.
Having worked in VC funded tech startups, I have had an account on Hacker News since it launched so I know that crowd extremely well. I have to confess that I was a lot like these obnoxious commentators on HN myself until about five years ago. I could not imagine retiring early - it seemed like a sign that you were conceding defeat. Now that I'm retired, I don't hang out on HN quite as much as I used to for my own sanity :-)
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... (several have redone kit cheese recently to the tune of $125k ...
I mean, I like a good artisanal cheese as much as the next person, but that seems like a lot to spend on Gouda. :)
I don't know. Spending all your cheddar on gouda seems like a good transaction to me.
As along you get fumunda debt first.
I can havarti believe how off topic this has gotten.
It makes me feel Bleu to be the reason it went off topic, I guess I will hunker down in my Cottage until it passes (unfortunately with cheese it takes a while).
You guys are shredding it! I... mus-a-really try to keep up.
I cammembert when this thread was about an FI blog post . . .
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... (several have redone kit cheese recently to the tune of $125k ...
I mean, I like a good artisanal cheese as much as the next person, but that seems like a lot to spend on Gouda. :)
I don't know. Spending all your cheddar on gouda seems like a good transaction to me.
As along you get fumunda debt first.
I can havarti believe how off topic this has gotten.
It makes me feel Bleu to be the reason it went off topic, I guess I will hunker down in my Cottage until it passes (unfortunately with cheese it takes a while).
You guys are shredding it! I... mus-a-really try to keep up.
I cammembert when this thread was about an FI blog post . . .
In the end, Dr. D fondu the silver lining, made cream out of sour milk. At least his ex didn't string him along too long, and he's stilton the right path:
I have meaning and love in my life — daily meaning, meaning that’s easy to define and pays off constantly — and it has nothing to do with employment and money.
It’s been said a billion times that money doesn’t make you happy. People do. Connections and relationships do. Purpose helps, too.
This year makes me a believer in all of the above. 100%. If that’s cheesy, so be it — I’m the Mayor of Cheese.
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Always "interesting" to see how different communities react to the idea of FIRE...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26543527
(Discussion on "6 years after FI and early retirement" (livingafi.com) aka Dr. Doom)
I came across that discussion yesterday, thanks for posting it so I can complain about the comments.
*and associated extreme lack of creativity: really, the best way you can think to spend your life is a job
Then you do have some folks talking about how all these FIRE people are obsessed with quitting when really you just need balance, something in your life to center on other than work. They don't realize that the FIRE community already discusses this round the clock! (Often concluding that since work needn't be the center of your life, and you don't need to work cause you have a stash...you don't need to work, period.)
Never forget that the harshest critics of FIRE are the ones doing less, not more. There are lots of whiny complainypants who love to throw stones and root for what they see as an RE "failure" but they don't have the balls to even try it. Much easier to sit smugly and declare it simply can't be done and remain as The Guardians of the cubicle sheeple. Losers.
What a story Dr. Doom is writing. He noted that creative writing courses were not going well and his other attempts were unfulfilling but in fact he has written a compelling story in the blog and could spend his time knitting it together into a book. It has a valuable message, especially if it ends with his focus on a new direction with a better partner and eventual early retirement at, say, 50. A comical treatment of it would even make a great movie, I imagine dream sequences of Dr. Doom and Cthuluh interspersed as he navigates the tech support jobs, kind of like his own personal Office Space.
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That would be a great story. It could be like a modern day (less 1970s values) Reginald Perrin.
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That would be a great story. It could be like a modern day (less 1970s values) Reginald Perrin.
But hopefully not like the quite bad 2009 remake Reggie Perrin.
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I didn't realise that somebody has remade it! That sounds like a tricky thing to do, unless you change it enough to be rather unrecognisable as RP.
The original was very much a product of its time (a very 1970s style midlife crisis, with lots of pretty sexist gags about fancying your secretary) - although in many ways a polar opposite of most of the sitcoms of the time in terms of the values and critique of society. I suppose what made me think of it in relation to Doom/FIRE is that Reggie is outwardly very successful and has all the trappings of a comfortable and wealthy life, but is still unsatisfied and only finds happiness (possibly not permanent?) after he jacks it all in and eventually becomes a pig farmer I think? The disdain he has for his work and the value system he feels trapped in but has no respect for had some resonance with Doom's pre-FIRE posts about the "claws" of his employer digging into him, I thought.
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I didn't realise that somebody has remade it! That sounds like a tricky thing to do, unless you change it enough to be rather unrecognisable as RP.
The original was very much a product of its time (a very 1970s style midlife crisis, with lots of pretty sexist gags about fancying your secretary) - although in many ways a polar opposite of most of the sitcoms of the time in terms of the values and critique of society.
Unfortunately the remake was very much a product of the 1970's as well, with the same sexists gags (though now about fancying a coworker rather than subordinate, so...progress?).
I have always been a big fan of 1970's Britain's other alternative lifestyle sitcom: The Good Life. Good viewing for all mustachians.
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Ah yes - love the Good Life!
Although as with all these beloved memories of childhood I tend to avoid re-watching now in case they turn out to be horribly racist or sexist or both and it ruins my love of them... but maybe the Good Life would be worth the risk!
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Although as with all these beloved memories of childhood I tend to avoid re-watching now in case they turn out to be horribly racist or sexist or both and it ruins my love of them... but maybe the Good Life would be worth the risk!
It's fairly inoffensive, but mildly sexist in a 70s way - both of the women were housewives, for example. Relatively little innuendo too - there is an often mentioned, but never seen character called Miss Mountshaft, but not much more than that.
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Although as with all these beloved memories of childhood I tend to avoid re-watching now in case they turn out to be horribly racist or sexist or both and it ruins my love of them... but maybe the Good Life would be worth the risk!
It's fairly inoffensive, but mildly sexist in a 70s way - both of the women were housewives, for example. Relatively little innuendo too - there is an often mentioned, but never seen character called Miss Mountshaft, but not much more than that.
I think there's a bit more innuendo than that--there's pretty strong swingers vibes between the two couples.
And Tom Good does have a couple of racist lines that I wish they'd edit out in the future--one impression of Confucius and one line that makes reference to minstrel shows. Both are just passing moments that aren't instrumental to the show or the character so I can still enjoy the show, but I do cringe pretty badly when I get to either of those lines.
But Felicity Kendal was (and is) perfect.
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ptf and so I can find this later when I have more time to read
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Although as with all these beloved memories of childhood I tend to avoid re-watching now in case they turn out to be horribly racist or sexist or both and it ruins my love of them... but maybe the Good Life would be worth the risk!
It's fairly inoffensive, but mildly sexist in a 70s way - both of the women were housewives, for example. Relatively little innuendo too - there is an often mentioned, but never seen character called Miss Mountshaft, but not much more than that.
What surprised me on rewatching this series was how they failed at pretty much everything they did. I had happy memories of them stepping outside the norm to live a self sufficient life. In fact they inspired some of my life choices (urban farm/chickens). But watching again I was astonished to realize the writers were mining misfortunes for humor.
I don't see them as failing, but persevering. Think of all the implications the show makes: It ran for four years (I think) and they were pretty much broke in the 2nd or 3rd episode, yet they are still at it years later. Yes, we've seen them struggle, we've seen many of Tom's daydreams crash to earth, but they continue to manage all the same. I think it teaches a good lesson in grit.
Sorry for the sidetrack OP, I'll try to let the thread get back on track.
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I just read the post yesterday, and this thread today. Digesting it.
I wonder how much of a difference it would have made if they'd had kids. Obviously, it would have postponed FIRE but having that focus of attention and hard work can be fulfilling or maybe draining.
I left a skeptical comment on his blog about 6 months before he pulled the plug, saying that I didn't think not working was very satisfying. I should have pointed out that I meant that for myself personally. Still, I don't find work itself fulfilling. I went to top schools for theoretical math and while it was intellectually challenging and stressful, wasn't something I could do in the workaholic way it demanded. Subsequent careers have been less demanding and my current barista-fire jobs (tax preparer, medical billing) are repetitious and tedious but not quite to the point of data entry.
My point is that I don't spend evenings complaining about my job because it's too petty to complain about. Complaining implies caring and engagement at some level. I have complained about a coworker who complains: a doctor forgot a signature because he's too busy, you know, treating patients, and it's just part of the job to go get the signatures. He misses 3 of her 20, 2 of my 20, we collect them all and I go get them. She acts like he's falling down on the job. She complains, out loud, over every signature. How can you care that much? Missing signatures slow you down like a red light on the way to work slows you down. After 23 years of doing this job, she hasn't gotten used to it? She stays late, unpaid, and badgers me to do the same, if she's behind. She has nightmares/can't sleep well if she's behind. In short, she's engaged with the job way more than I am. Sometimes I shake my head that she's managed to raise 2 children to college; did she whine over every dirty diaper too? I work hard, I sweat the details, I get really focused and speed up if I'm behind but she's on another level.
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I have complained about a coworker who complains: a doctor forgot a signature because he's too busy, you know, treating patients, and it's just part of the job to go get the signatures. He misses 3 of her 20, 2 of my 20, we collect them all and I go get them. She acts like he's falling down on the job. She complains, out loud, over every signature. How can you care that much? Missing signatures slow you down like a red light on the way to work slows you down. After 23 years of doing this job, she hasn't gotten used to it? She stays late, unpaid, and badgers me to do the same, if she's behind. She has nightmares/can't sleep well if she's behind. In short, she's engaged with the job way more than I am. Sometimes I shake my head that she's managed to raise 2 children to college; did she whine over every dirty diaper too? I work hard, I sweat the details, I get really focused and speed up if I'm behind but she's on another level.
Why is she behind? Sounds like it is because she is given more workload than she can handle. She might be shooting herself in the foot by doing unpaid overtime trying to keep up (instead of letting the work falling behind become a problem for management - they need to allocate sufficient resources for the work to get done). Since she is behind, every little thing that is someone else's job that doesn't get done and adds to her workload is a stressor.
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I have complained about a coworker who complains: a doctor forgot a signature because he's too busy, you know, treating patients, and it's just part of the job to go get the signatures. He misses 3 of her 20, 2 of my 20, we collect them all and I go get them. She acts like he's falling down on the job. She complains, out loud, over every signature. How can you care that much? Missing signatures slow you down like a red light on the way to work slows you down. After 23 years of doing this job, she hasn't gotten used to it? She stays late, unpaid, and badgers me to do the same, if she's behind. She has nightmares/can't sleep well if she's behind. In short, she's engaged with the job way more than I am. Sometimes I shake my head that she's managed to raise 2 children to college; did she whine over every dirty diaper too? I work hard, I sweat the details, I get really focused and speed up if I'm behind but she's on another level.
Why is she behind? Sounds like it is because she is given more workload than she can handle. She might be shooting herself in the foot by doing unpaid overtime trying to keep up (instead of letting the work falling behind become a problem for management - they need to allocate sufficient resources for the work to get done). Since she is behind, every little thing that is someone else's job that doesn't get done and adds to her workload is a stressor.
You can handle this though via refusing to do the work. I used to get in about 9 and leave any time between 3 and 4. I was questioned about it. It was a joke to a bunch of people. I just didn't care. I worked on projects and there were times the stress was horrible. I learnt to not care about the job and then I changed my behavior. At some point I realized if work wasn't getting done it wasn't my problem.
There are ways to handle work. The best being not working or at least it's the best for me. I think Doom also feels that way. Work is about getting money to pay bills. When it's not required then don't do it. The best way to fast track not working is spending less and earning more however the spending less to me is more important but the problem is you have to be comfortable spending less over the course of your retirement.
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I find it interesting that it appears Dr. Doom had to convince his former wife into FIRE. Maybe in the end, she wasn’t convinced. It sounds like they ultimately after a sabbatical which worked she wasn’t ready for the FIRE idea that was the reality. Cheating aside, they ended up with fundamentally different goals neither of which were wrong. (The cheating was)
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I have complained about a coworker who complains: a doctor forgot a signature because he's too busy, you know, treating patients, and it's just part of the job to go get the signatures. He misses 3 of her 20, 2 of my 20, we collect them all and I go get them. She acts like he's falling down on the job. She complains, out loud, over every signature. How can you care that much? Missing signatures slow you down like a red light on the way to work slows you down. After 23 years of doing this job, she hasn't gotten used to it? She stays late, unpaid, and badgers me to do the same, if she's behind. She has nightmares/can't sleep well if she's behind. In short, she's engaged with the job way more than I am. Sometimes I shake my head that she's managed to raise 2 children to college; did she whine over every dirty diaper too? I work hard, I sweat the details, I get really focused and speed up if I'm behind but she's on another level.
Why is she behind? Sounds like it is because she is given more workload than she can handle. She might be shooting herself in the foot by doing unpaid overtime trying to keep up (instead of letting the work falling behind become a problem for management - they need to allocate sufficient resources for the work to get done). Since she is behind, every little thing that is someone else's job that doesn't get done and adds to her workload is a stressor.
To be honest, outside of 2 weeks when they cut our hours due to the pandemic, I have no idea why she was behind enough to stress about it. I have less experience and 30% larger workload, and a fairly similar, minimal error rate. She did admit to a tendency to overthink things, which is another irritation altogether. Sometimes we'd get behind for obvious reasons - someone takes a few hours off or even a full day and they expect us to make up the time somewhere. Which, realistically, we do, even without working through lunch (just a bad idea, in my view) or giving unpaid, unknown by management, overtime. I've worked with her for more than a year and she did stop doing the overtime once management sent out notices about it, and the work still gets done. And she still complains about every freaking signature, demo, regardless of how behind she isn't. Well she stopped complaining about 3 demos when I showed her my 8. My point remains, that while I take the job seriously, she takes it almost personally. She's invested in it at a totally different level and doesn't understand the doctors and myself who see it as "paperwork", much less important than seeing patients. Money matters, no one's saying it doesn't, but its not more important than the patients.
ETA: When I complained to my Mom, her theory was that my coworker complains as a form of bonding, just something to talk about. Which seems possible, but backfired if so.
The other thing is that she complains almost as much about her own minor errors. I try to be sympathetic - okay you flubbed, we all do - but she gets overwrought about it.
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Life is what happens when you are making other plans. I wish Dr. Doom all the best in his new life!
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Never heard of Doom before but it seems like his marriage was doomed long ago. It's too bad it took them so long to figure things out but fantastic there are no kids involved. Now everyone can move on happily, working. I think for most people early retirement is not really as feasible as people think it is. It sounds good and easy once the finances are in place but it can be very difficult. The only people I know who retired successfully before age 50 were either already rich and working for fun their whole lives or launched into non-paid work which was at least as busy and stressful as a real job. The rest all ended up back at work and/or divorced. You can only build so many birdhouses!
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The rest all ended up back at work and/or divorced. You can only build so many birdhouses!
I think lots of people end up divorced. I wouldn't blame ER for that.
As for building birdhouses. I'm just retired and personally I'm not struggling with stuff to do. I'm pretty lazy though.
I'm under 50, retired and married. Divorce would really impact our finances so I also have a vested interest in going against the trend that you can see.
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Dr. Doom is the best fire blogger of all time.
I loved seeing the update, and while it was painful to read personally (having gotten divorced myself recently) and I felt for him, I'm glad to hear he's in a happy place now.
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Dr. Doom is the best fire blogger of all time.
I loved seeing the update, and while it was painful to read personally (having gotten divorced myself recently) and I felt for him, I'm glad to hear he's in a happy place now.
Sorry to hear about the divorce. That really sucks.
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I'm glad to see Doom's update but sorry for his troubles. I very much enjoyed reading his blog when I found it a couple of years back and had wondered how it worked out for him. I expected that he was in good financial shape given the market since he FIREd in 2015. That seems to be the case, even under his new circumstances.
I agree that his FIRE experience to date shouldn't be regarded by him or anyone else as any kind of failure. I can't recall where I read the line recently but it was in the context of how we should want to rear our children, and to paraphrase it was that we don't want to raise our kids in a way that they never encounter any difficulties, but rather that we should want to raise them in such a way that they are equipped to handle life's inevitable difficulties. Seems to me that FI/FIRE planning and preparation should be viewed in much the same way. We can't really expect everything to go as planned or as expected, but we should endeavor to build a plan as a framework within which we can exercise flexibility to adapt to changing circumstances.
While I have no opinion about the causes of someone else's specific relationship woes, it does seem like early FIRE does present some challenges both for married and single people as regards their current or future relationships.
I have no idea what the percentage is of people who FIRE and then regret or rethink that choice and return to work or wish that they could return to work either for money or for purpose or just for something to fill the days, but it's probably pretty far from zero.
If a couple FIRE together, it seems only reasonable to expect that rate of disenchantment to be almost double, in that at least one of the pair will discover that it isn't all they hoped or expected it would be. Again, I have no opinion as to whether that was truly the issue faced my Mr. and Mrs. Doom. I'm just talking about probabilities. Two people is double the chance that at least someone isn't going to be happy with it.
Speaking generically, not to Doom's particular situation:
A relationship is hard enough under "normal" circumstances, but if you add an imbalance of perceived work ethic / contribution / ease between the partners, that's got to make things harder. This topic came up on the single mustachians thread a while back. How can you go into a relationship with such an imbalance? Might there be people for whom it is no issue? Sure. But once again to play the probabilities, that number is probably pretty small. Seems really likely that one person is going to develop some resentments toward the other, whether it's the working person or the non-working person.
If you were to present to me a couple, one of whom retired early and the other of whom decided to continue working, I would immediately discount (pretty heavily) the odds of them staying together. One person going to work while the other lounged and played all the time, yet would inevitably benefit from the financial benefits of one party continuing to bring in an income just seems like a problem waiting to happen. I'm sure there are couples that have done it successfully! I get that. I'm just saying that I can see how that would add a stress to a relationship for most people. I wouldn't like being either party in that situation. One person will come to resent the one who doesn't have to work and the other would resent that they are made to feel guilty for not having to work, or feel constrained to not 'flaunt' their freedom by doing fun things without the partner.
In the context of single folk who have already or almost reached FI status with any plan to RE, finding a partner who is either themselves in the same financial position or would be willing to put up with being in a relationship with someone who is in that position seems like a hard nut to crack.
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I'm glad to see Doom's update but sorry for his troubles. I very much enjoyed reading his blog when I found it a couple of years back and had wondered how it worked out for him. I expected that he was in good financial shape given the market since he FIREd in 2015. That seems to be the case, even under his new circumstances.
I agree that his FIRE experience to date shouldn't be regarded by him or anyone else as any kind of failure. I can't recall where I read the line recently but it was in the context of how we should want to rear our children, and to paraphrase it was that we don't want to raise our kids in a way that they never encounter any difficulties, but rather that we should want to raise them in such a way that they are equipped to handle life's inevitable difficulties. Seems to me that FI/FIRE planning and preparation should be viewed in much the same way. We can't really expect everything to go as planned or as expected, but we should endeavor to build a plan as a framework within which we can exercise flexibility to adapt to changing circumstances.
While I have no opinion about the causes of someone else's specific relationship woes, it does seem like early FIRE does present some challenges both for married and single people as regards their current or future relationships.
I have no idea what the percentage is of people who FIRE and then regret or rethink that choice and return to work or wish that they could return to work either for money or for purpose or just for something to fill the days, but it's probably pretty far from zero.
If a couple FIRE together, it seems only reasonable to expect that rate of disenchantment to be almost double, in that at least one of the pair will discover that it isn't all they hoped or expected it would be. Again, I have no opinion as to whether that was truly the issue faced my Mr. and Mrs. Doom. I'm just talking about probabilities. Two people is double the chance that at least someone isn't going to be happy with it.
Speaking generically, not to Doom's particular situation:
A relationship is hard enough under "normal" circumstances, but if you add an imbalance of perceived work ethic / contribution / ease between the partners, that's got to make things harder. This topic came up on the single mustachians thread a while back. How can you go into a relationship with such an imbalance? Might there be people for whom it is no issue? Sure. But once again to play the probabilities, that number is probably pretty small. Seems really likely that one person is going to develop some resentments toward the other, whether it's the working person or the non-working person.
If you were to present to me a couple, one of whom retired early and the other of whom decided to continue working, I would immediately discount (pretty heavily) the odds of them staying together. One person going to work while the other lounged and played all the time, yet would inevitably benefit from the financial benefits of one party continuing to bring in an income just seems like a problem waiting to happen. I'm sure there are couples that have done it successfully! I get that. I'm just saying that I can see how that would add a stress to a relationship for most people. I wouldn't like being either party in that situation. One person will come to resent the one who doesn't have to work and the other would resent that they are made to feel guilty for not having to work, or feel constrained to not 'flaunt' their freedom by doing fun things without the partner.
In the context of single folk who have already or almost reached FI status with any plan to RE, finding a partner who is either themselves in the same financial position or would be willing to put up with being in a relationship with someone who is in that position seems like a hard nut to crack.
I'm honestly morbidly FASCINATED by this perspective.
A strong marriage should be able to withstand a hell of a lot more than one or more partners retiring because they're privileged enough to be able to afford to.
In a healthy marriage, these decisions would be made collaboratively, if one partner became unhappy, there would be constructive communication about it. I simply and utterly refuse to believe that having enough money to have more choices in life than to continue working can ever possibly damage a strong and healthy marriage. Create challenges? Of course, but all good marriages weather challenges.
Do I think FIRE has the capacity to catalyze the breakdown of a marriage? Sure, but if it does, then I think that's a marriage that would have been in trouble under any significant strain.
Perhaps I'm biased because in my marriage we've faced some serious shit (I literally can't walk right now), and I can't fathom a loving couple crumbling under much, much less difficult circumstances than we've faced, and our marriage has just become stronger through it.
Oh, and I retired because of my disability, but there are multiple high earning jobs I could do from home, but DH has pushed me to not work if I don't absolutely want to because he's happy to earn enough to support both of us. I felt internal pressure to keep earning, but he's really encouraged me to let that pressure go and only do what I will enjoy because he enjoys his job. Also, we both recognize that we're both much better partners now that we have less of a collective focus on work, and more bandwidth for each other. I'm,in particular, a much more present paryner now that my focus isn't so consumed with my demanding career. Basically, DH gets a way more fun wife, so why would he resent me not working???
We're basically leanFI as it is, and our FI planning over the past several years is what makes it SO EASY for us to be able to make these types of decisions.
So FI has made life so much easier, there's no resentment with one partner working, and our marriage has thrived through all of the very difficult challenges. I genuinely can't fathom a loving, supportive, trusting, respectful marriage working any other way.
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@Malcat perhaps I’m just someone with a dimmer view of human nature. Also, I’ve never been married, so my opinions are, well, just that.
Maybe the difference is that I don't think there are that many deep trusting marriages and relationships. It sounds like you’ve found one and thats great, but do you really think its that common? If you had to wager, what percentage of couples who stay together are actually in strong and healthy relationships, and how many are just together because of financial, familial, or social expectations or just plain inertia? I may be way off but I think its not most. Add in factors such as age, as we are talking about early retirees, so maybe 30’s and 40’s, you know, prime divorce age, and I submit that it skews even more toward unstable relationships that will be less resilient when more stressors are added.
Of course, I only said that I think these situations (hypothetical) would add new stress and make it less likely that a relationship would survive. The strong and healthy ones would.
I could be way off, and i guess I hope that I am. I don't think of myself as cynical or pessimistic, I just think people are much more driven by impulses that we don't recognize even in ourselves. Call it evolutionary or fallenness or whatever, I just think we should be clear eyed about how we are as a species. We’re naturally selfish and we naturally place too much importance on how we think other people see us (which of course includes how our partners and families are perceived) even though the vast majority of other people don't spend very much time thinking about us at all because they are themselves preoccupied with themselves and how they think they are being perceived.
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@Malcat perhaps I’m just someone with a dimmer view of human nature. Also, I’ve never been married, so my opinions are, well, just that.
Maybe the difference is that I don't think there are that many deep trusting marriages and relationships. It sounds like you’ve found one and thats great, but do you really think its that common? If you had to wager, what percentage of couples who stay together are actually in strong and healthy relationships, and how many are just together because of financial, familial, or social expectations or just plain inertia? I may be way off but I think its not most. Add in factors such as age, as we are talking about early retirees, so maybe 30’s and 40’s, you know, prime divorce age, and I submit that it skews even more toward unstable relationships that will be less resilient when more stressors are added.
Of course, I only said that I think these situations (hypothetical) would add new stress and make it less likely that a relationship would survive. The strong and healthy ones would.
I could be way off, and i guess I hope that I am. I don't think of myself as cynical or pessimistic, I just think people are much more driven by impulses that we don't recognize even in ourselves. Call it evolutionary or fallenness or whatever, I just think we should be clear eyed about how we are as a species. We’re naturally selfish and we naturally place too much importance on how we think other people see us (which of course includes how our partners and families are perceived) even though the vast majority of other people don't spend very much time thinking about us at all because they are themselves preoccupied with themselves and how they think they are being perceived.
I never said all or even most marriages are strong, loving, trusting, and respectful. There's a reason so many end in divorce, and even more should.
I specifically said that a marriage that will be damaged by FIRE, aka by having enough freedom not to work is a marriage that was likely to be damaged by any significant strain.
The point is that if FIRE can take out a marriage, then FIRE isn't the problem, the marriage is, which is a much bigger issue.
People go on and on about the risk of FIRE to marriages, but really, if FIRE is legitimately a risk, then so is everything else in life because life tends to be hard. And funnily enough, it tends to be A LOT harder when you don't have enough money to be flexible in your options.
The concept that marriage is hard enough under "normal" circumstances, so FIRE must be harder is absurd. Normal circumstances mean having to work for money in jobs that would be stressful to lose, which means having a lot of work-based stress and pressure. Throw in two working partners and kids, and there's no way that that's fundamentally easier than having the financial freedom to make choices.
Yeah, sure, adjusting to change is hard. FIRE comes with challenges, but I'll take those challenges any day over being trapped in a stressful job that I can't afford to lose while trying to give my all to my marriage. THAT is hard.
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Sounds like you two are coming from it from different perspectives.
TF is saying (what he/she sees as) an average, normal marriage with that might experience some struggles.
Malcat is saying a good, healthy marriage should be fine and easily withstand that.
Both could be true.
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The concept that marriage is hard enough under "normal" circumstances, so FIRE must be harder is absurd. Normal circumstances mean having to work for money in jobs that would be stressful to lose, which means having a lot of work-based stress and pressure. Throw in two working partners and kids, and there's no way that that's fundamentally easier than having the financial freedom to make choices.
FIRE is an unconventional choice. It can offer relief to some, but add pressure for others. Different people, different types of pressure.
For some people, FIRE relieves the financial pressures of both people in a couple having to work, and benefits the marriage, as Malcat says above. For others, and this seems like it was the Dooms' case, FIRE actually wasn't seen in this light, but was adding more pressure, as Ms Doom wanted to live a more conventional, spendy life, and was feeling societal pressure to go back to work. FIRE wasn't a relief in their case but rather added further complications to life (and therefore to the marriage). There's financial stress, and there's social / societal stress.
I think there was the added element of Dr Doom 'shaming' her for having conventional priorities, like she wasn't thinking for herself. This could be true. Who knows? And whether or not she was thinking for herself, or had internalized social pressures doesn't matter. She was experiencing FIRE as an unneeded pressure, and that cause a lot of strain on the relationship for her. It seems like she wanted work, financial, and material ambitions to be a team effort. He did not see the value in those things.
So yeah, I agree with TF and Malcat and don't see how their perspectives necessarily contradict each other. It just depends on the people and their situation.
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Sounds like you two are coming from it from different perspectives.
TF is saying (what he/she sees as) an average, normal marriage with that might experience some struggles.
Malcat is saying a good, healthy marriage should be fine and easily withstand that.
Both could be true.
Those specific perspectives are both true, what I keep arguing against is this concept that FIRE is in general a risk to marriage, and that we should all be cautious about that.
FIRE itself isn't a risk to marriages, it can just reveal the already existing risks. No marriage can last a lifetime without facing enormous challenges that a lot of marriages won't weather, you cannot avoid that. All marriages get tested, it's a normal part of the process.
So yes, everyone in a marriage should be prepared that any major life change could be a challenge, but again, those challenges aren't what ends marriages, they just reveal fault lines. I mean, home renos are the *number one* catalyst for divorce, and we don't have people constantly wringing their hands about the risks of divorce from updating kitchens.
What I feel is very important to distinguish is that just because change poses a challenge, doesn't mean that avoiding that change, like choosing to stay employed even if you don't need to, adds any level of protection to a marriage.
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Sounds like you two are coming from it from different perspectives.
TF is saying (what he/she sees as) an average, normal marriage with that might experience some struggles.
Malcat is saying a good, healthy marriage should be fine and easily withstand that.
Both could be true.
Those specific perspectives are both true, what I keep arguing against is this concept that FIRE is in general a risk to marriage, and that we should all be cautious about that.
FIRE itself isn't a risk to marriages, it can just reveal the already existing risks. No marriage can last a lifetime without facing enormous challenges that a lot of marriages won't weather, you cannot avoid that. All marriages get tested, it's a normal part of the process.
So yes, everyone in a marriage should be prepared that any major life change could be a challenge, but again, those challenges aren't what ends marriages, they just reveal fault lines. I mean, home renos are the *number one* catalyst for divorce, and we don't have people constantly wringing their hands about the risks of divorce from updating kitchens.
What I feel is very important to distinguish is that just because change poses a challenge, doesn't mean that avoiding that change, like choosing to stay employed even if you don't need to, adds any level of protection to a marriage.
I would think that every marriage, even a very strong one, has fault lines somewhere, it's just a matter of how bad things have to get to bring them to the surface. A good marriage is stronger than the sum of its parts, but not infinitely stronger. If the person breaks, the marriage breaks, and there's only so much that the other partner can take on to relieve the pressure.
I know you weren't speaking to me, but since you brought up home renovation - I think it's very likely that the renovation of the home my DH and I bought would have led to our divorce. On top of COVID and work and mental health issues (medicated and in therapy, but progress is slow), there's only so much two people can put up with. So our choice is to skip the renovation by selling the house, so we can focus on mental health and work. If we were in a financial position where skipping the job was an option, we might do that instead, but we're nowhere close to FI yet.
All marriages get tested, but sometimes you can choose to delay the test until you've had a chance to become stronger people and build a stronger marriage as a result. I don't think that choosing to call in sick on exam day this time around means my marriage is weak or doomed to fail. We'll take the make-up test when we're feeling better. If someone is finding FIRE a serious stress test of their marriage, I can certainly see choosing to delay RE while working on the underlying fault line - which in Dr. Doom's case appears to have involved some mental health issues from both participants, which might have benefitted from therapy.
I hope that was coherent, I've been trying to work through these issues myself recently.
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Re home renovation: another major cause for divorce is differences in financial values. If one spouse wants to FIRE off of 500k, and the other 5M, that's a major fault line. So - sometimes divorce IS caused by FIRE disagreements. I think this is the case in the Doom scenario (but perhaps less extreme).
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I think everyone is making valid points, but just to clarify mine, I was referring to a specific form of FIRE, where only one of the partners is actually RE and the other continues to work for whatever reason. My concern there is that resentment would begin to creep in, and resentment, I believe, is the single biggest problem (in that it leads to so many others) in any relationship.
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I think everyone is making valid points, but just to clarify mine, I was referring to a specific form of FIRE, where only one of the partners is actually RE and the other continues to work for whatever reason. My concern there is that resentment would begin to creep in, and resentment, I believe, is the single biggest problem (in that it leads to so many others) in any relationship.
I addressed this as well.
I don't think resentment is a given. Couples who make decisions collaboratively aren't going to be resentful.
As I said, in our case, DH gets a huge benefit from me not working, so he doesn't resent it at all. Also, resentment doesn't need to ever build up, good communication *can* avoid this. It's just not a given.
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Re home renovation: another major cause for divorce is differences in financial values. If one spouse wants to FIRE off of 500k, and the other 5M, that's a major fault line. So - sometimes divorce IS caused by FIRE disagreements. I think this is the case in the Doom scenario (but perhaps less extreme).
There's a difference between cause and catalyze.
A difference in financial and life values can cause a divorce, an event that puts pressure on that fault line can catalyze a divorce. The renovations and the retirement don't cause the conflict, they reveal the underlying conflict and fan the flames of it.
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Re home renovation: another major cause for divorce is differences in financial values. If one spouse wants to FIRE off of 500k, and the other 5M, that's a major fault line. So - sometimes divorce IS caused by FIRE disagreements. I think this is the case in the Doom scenario (but perhaps less extreme).
There's a difference between cause and catalyze.
A difference in financial and life values can cause a divorce, an event that puts pressure on that fault line can catalyze a divorce. The renovations and the retirement don't cause the conflict, they reveal the underlying conflict and fan the flames of it.
I agree. I think we are getting tripped up over just this: I believe FIRE is a complex value system, not a specific one-time event. So when I say FIRE disagreements can cause divorce, I mean - the life and financial value systems, not the one-time event of quitting a job. And if it were not a complex and challenging process that unfolds over a long timeline with many areas of uncertainty, this forum would be empty ;)
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Re home renovation: another major cause for divorce is differences in financial values. If one spouse wants to FIRE off of 500k, and the other 5M, that's a major fault line. So - sometimes divorce IS caused by FIRE disagreements. I think this is the case in the Doom scenario (but perhaps less extreme).
There's a difference between cause and catalyze.
A difference in financial and life values can cause a divorce, an event that puts pressure on that fault line can catalyze a divorce. The renovations and the retirement don't cause the conflict, they reveal the underlying conflict and fan the flames of it.
I agree. I think we are getting tripped up over just this: I believe FIRE is a complex value system, not a specific one-time event. So when I say FIRE disagreements can cause divorce, I mean - the life and financial value systems, not the one-time event of quitting a job. And if it were not a complex and challenging process that unfolds over a long timeline with many areas of uncertainty, this forum would be empty ;)
Sure, but I still hold that FIRE, and the entire complex process, isn't an inherent risk to marriages. For some, it will be a challenge that puts fault lines under pressure, and for others, it will make things much, much easier.
Same with any significant life change, including renovating a house, changing jobs, having kids, losing a parent, developing health issues, relocating, etc, etc.
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Yep, for sure, I think I said that above. For some people, FIRE makes life easier; for others, more difficult.
In Dooms case though - just based on what he said, of course - there was no way out of the situation where both partners would have been satisfied. If she had convinced him to keep working till they had met *her* comfort level with FIRE, he would have been miserable. And clearly she was miserable with their finances at the point they FIREd at. Seems like these were just irreconcilable FIRE value differences.
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When DH and I remarried, I planned to find part-time work outside health insurance after a few months off. We liked me not working so much, that we decided to stay that way. He liked that I took over most of the household stuff, which gave him more free time. It was working out very well, but who knows what would have happened long term. I was very focused on making his life easier where I could. Not working reduced my stress level and made our marriage better, IMO.
It seemed normal that Doom's wife wanted to go back to work. I've considered it several times. I think most of us do. What was shocking was she didn't want to be with him not working. That's just BS in my opinion.
And then the whole not wanting to be with him unhealthy? She was already checked out by then, because no one would do that to someone they loved.
I would have gone back to work in my career if DH wanted to retire early, just like Doom has done. DH liked his job and wanted to work until 65, so I didn't need to. I completely support Doom working to fund FIRE for his partner.
On the flip side, my SIL quit working 4 years ago, and she and her husband are clearly miserable. I suspect they would divorce if they had a substantial 'stache. They are the opposite of FIRE - spending the 401k while he is still working.
Maybe gender roles play a part in this. DH and my BIL both have the man works to support his family hard-wired. Is it easier when the husband works and the wife doesn't?
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Maybe gender roles play a part in this. DH and my BIL both have the man works to support his family hard-wired. Is it easier when the husband works and the wife doesn't?
I'd wondered about that. There are plenty of great stories in the forum of husbands who FIRE first and are able to be more supportive of wives that continue to work and everyone seems way happier than before.
But I've also read several times about women who tell their husbands they aren't comfortable with the husband retiring while the wife still works and don't think I've ever heard the same situation come up with the genders reversed (although, to be clear, me not hearing about it certainly doesn't mean it doesn't happen).
Looking at society more broadly, a study -- now a a decade old mind you -- found that divorce was somewhat more common in couples where the wife out earned the husband and that there is also a cliff right at the 50:50 split line where couples where the husband earns slightly more than the wife are significantly more common than couples where the wife earns slightly more than the husband.
https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w19023/w19023.pdf
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Maybe gender roles play a part in this. DH and my BIL both have the man works to support his family hard-wired. Is it easier when the husband works and the wife doesn't?
I'd wondered about that. There are plenty of great stories in the forum of husbands who FIRE first and are able to be more supportive of wives that continue to work and everyone seems way happier than before.
But I've also read several times about women who tell their husbands they aren't comfortable with the husband retiring while the wife still works and don't think I've ever heard the same situation come up with the genders reversed (although, to be clear, me not hearing about it certainly doesn't mean it doesn't happen).
Looking at society more broadly, a study -- now a a decade old mind you -- found that divorce was somewhat more common in couples where the wife out earned the husband and that there is also a cliff right at the 50:50 split line where couples where the husband earns slightly more than the wife are significantly more common than couples where the wife earns slightly more than the husband.
https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w19023/w19023.pdf
Yes from what I understand, totally based on what I’ve read Im no psychologist or sociologist, but the literature is clear that as a rule women want to marry equal or higher status men whereas men in general are much more likely (more likely than women) to marry someone from a lower status. This is one of the issues that we are facing as a society where women now outnumber men in colleges and universities. This is leading to a dearth of “marriageable” men for the higher status women.
How is status defined? In our culture it isn't any secret that education, job, and money are the signalers of status. For a FIREee, maybe there is money but if it isn't being openly utilized, that signal of status is not doing any signalling. This is really what I was tiptoeing around whenI said that humans are driven by impulses we don't even recognize in ourselves. And there isn’t anything wrong with the social drives like this one! They exist for good reasons and are a result of thousands of years of our developing culture.
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Yep, for sure, I think I said that above. For some people, FIRE makes life easier; for others, more difficult.
In Dooms case though - just based on what he said, of course - there was no way out of the situation where both partners would have been satisfied. If she had convinced him to keep working till they had met *her* comfort level with FIRE, he would have been miserable. And clearly she was miserable with their finances at the point they FIREd at. Seems like these were just irreconcilable FIRE value differences.
Yes, I totally agree. I think they had fundamentally incompatible values on a few fronts.
I'm entirely unconvinced that him continuing to work or agreeing to go back to work would have resolved those incompatibilities.
If what you are saying is that being frugal and aiming for FIRE is a distinctive set of values that is more likely to encounter friction with people who don't share them, then yeah, I'll absolutely sign on to that. But to me that's an entirely different concept believing that FIRE itself increases a risk of divorce more than any other major life change.
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Maybe gender roles play a part in this. DH and my BIL both have the man works to support his family hard-wired. Is it easier when the husband works and the wife doesn't?
I'd wondered about that. There are plenty of great stories in the forum of husbands who FIRE first and are able to be more supportive of wives that continue to work and everyone seems way happier than before.
But I've also read several times about women who tell their husbands they aren't comfortable with the husband retiring while the wife still works and don't think I've ever heard the same situation come up with the genders reversed (although, to be clear, me not hearing about it certainly doesn't mean it doesn't happen).
Looking at society more broadly, a study -- now a a decade old mind you -- found that divorce was somewhat more common in couples where the wife out earned the husband and that there is also a cliff right at the 50:50 split line where couples where the husband earns slightly more than the wife are significantly more common than couples where the wife earns slightly more than the husband.
https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w19023/w19023.pdf
Yes from what I understand, totally based on what I’ve read Im no psychologist or sociologist, but the literature is clear that as a rule women want to marry equal or higher status men whereas men in general are much more likely (more likely than women) to marry someone from a lower status. This is one of the issues that we are facing as a society where women now outnumber men in colleges and universities. This is leading to a dearth of “marriageable” men for the higher status women.
How is status defined? In our culture it isn't any secret that education, job, and money are the signalers of status. For a FIREee, maybe there is money but if it isn't being openly utilized, that signal of status is not doing any signalling. This is really what I was tiptoeing around whenI said that humans are driven by impulses we don't even recognize in ourselves. And there isn’t anything wrong with the social drives like this one! They exist for good reasons and are a result of thousands of years of our developing culture.
This is an interesting take and I see why you'd want to tip-toe around it a bit.
I'd like to see the "studies" on this if you could link any.
Anecdotally, (N=5 or 6 females) some aren't really concerned whether a prospective mate makes more money or less money than them. The concern usually comes from the other side (guys) where there's some discomfort or feelings of less worth when men make less than their female partners. On the flipside, females tend to seek males with a higher self-confidence (back to my N of 5 or 6 single females in my circle) and annual income may play a role there for some males.
My 2 cents.
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Maybe gender roles play a part in this. DH and my BIL both have the man works to support his family hard-wired. Is it easier when the husband works and the wife doesn't?
I'd wondered about that. There are plenty of great stories in the forum of husbands who FIRE first and are able to be more supportive of wives that continue to work and everyone seems way happier than before.
But I've also read several times about women who tell their husbands they aren't comfortable with the husband retiring while the wife still works and don't think I've ever heard the same situation come up with the genders reversed (although, to be clear, me not hearing about it certainly doesn't mean it doesn't happen).
Looking at society more broadly, a study -- now a a decade old mind you -- found that divorce was somewhat more common in couples where the wife out earned the husband and that there is also a cliff right at the 50:50 split line where couples where the husband earns slightly more than the wife are significantly more common than couples where the wife earns slightly more than the husband.
https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w19023/w19023.pdf
Yes from what I understand, totally based on what I’ve read Im no psychologist or sociologist, but the literature is clear that as a rule women want to marry equal or higher status men whereas men in general are much more likely (more likely than women) to marry someone from a lower status. This is one of the issues that we are facing as a society where women now outnumber men in colleges and universities. This is leading to a dearth of “marriageable” men for the higher status women.
How is status defined? In our culture it isn't any secret that education, job, and money are the signalers of status. For a FIREee, maybe there is money but if it isn't being openly utilized, that signal of status is not doing any signalling. This is really what I was tiptoeing around whenI said that humans are driven by impulses we don't even recognize in ourselves. And there isn’t anything wrong with the social drives like this one! They exist for good reasons and are a result of thousands of years of our developing culture.
Hmm, the hundreds of female medical professionals I know who have married men in less prestigious careers with lower incomes don't line up with your theory.
Among certain women, the main status they care about is how loving and attentive their husbands are. There's even a certain population of women who gain social status in having husbands who are willing to be stay at home fathers while the wives are the bread winners.
As gender roles evolve so do these types of values.
In my *extensive* experience socializing among professionally and financially successful women, a lot of them couldn't give a flying fuck about the "status" of their partner, and actually prefer not to marry someone with an equally demanding career.
I never would have dated someone with as prestigious or demanding a career as mine. Too much career for one marriage for my taste. DH made about a third what I did and had about a third of the stress, and thank goodness for that. Still, I gain A LOT of social capital from being married to him because women always love him. I get a lot more "status" from being married to someone like him than by marrying someone who makes even more money than I do. No one in my social circle would care if my husband made more money.
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In my *extensive* experience socializing among professionally and financially successful women, a lot of them couldn't give a flying fuck about the "status" of their partner, and actually prefer not to marry someone with an equally demanding career.
but do they? And even if they do, anecdotal. Kinda like the majority of woke posts emerge from ivory tower counties/neighborhoods/expensive colleges and other places of extreme privilege.
TempusFugit is just citing from a vast body of studies and literature.
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In my *extensive* experience socializing among professionally and financially successful women, a lot of them couldn't give a flying fuck about the "status" of their partner, and actually prefer not to marry someone with an equally demanding career.
but do they? And even if they do, anecdotal. Kinda like the majority of woke posts emerge from ivory tower counties/neighborhoods/expensive colleges and other places of extreme privilege.
TempusFugit is just citing from a vast body of studies and literature.
The calculation in what makes a good life partner for you changes if you are earning 5 or 10 times the median income.
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Hmm, the hundreds of female medical professionals I know who have married men in less prestigious careers with lower incomes don't line up with your theory.
Pretty crazy that you not only know hundreds of female medical professionals, but you know them all well enough to be knowledgeable about their husbands careers. That is a lot of data points in the anecdote column I guess. The majority of the doctors I work with are married to someone in a less prestigious career, whether they are male or female. I just assume that once someone is making $250,000+, it is more likely they will find someone making less than that, rather than more.
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In my *extensive* experience socializing among professionally and financially successful women, a lot of them couldn't give a flying fuck about the "status" of their partner, and actually prefer not to marry someone with an equally demanding career.
but do they? And even if they do, anecdotal. Kinda like the majority of woke posts emerge from ivory tower counties/neighborhoods/expensive colleges and other places of extreme privilege.
TempusFugit is just citing from a vast body of studies and literature.
TempusFugit has not cited anything. Maybe he has read a vast body of studies and literature that support his statement, but he has not shared which ones for us to consider if we agree with his interpretation.
I’d be interested in knowing the date of the studies, for example.
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Hmm, the hundreds of female medical professionals I know who have married men in less prestigious careers with lower incomes don't line up with your theory.
Pretty crazy that you not only know hundreds of female medical professionals, but you know them all well enough to be knowledgeable about their husbands careers.
I'm the president of a large womens group of medical professionals, and yeah, we talk about our spouses A LOT, because one of the main topics of conversation is managing children and a demanding career, so the roles that partners play is talked about frequently.
ETA: I will make a correction to my statement though, I know hundreds of female medical professionals, probably about half of them have lower earning partners, the other half mostly have equal earning partners in the same profession, who often work with them, a small minority have higher earning partners. It's just really rare that people in my city earn more than people in my profession, so it's unlikely to marry someone who does.
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In my *extensive* experience socializing among professionally and financially successful women, a lot of them couldn't give a flying fuck about the "status" of their partner, and actually prefer not to marry someone with an equally demanding career.
but do they? And even if they do, anecdotal. Kinda like the majority of woke posts emerge from ivory tower counties/neighborhoods/expensive colleges and other places of extreme privilege.
TempusFugit is just citing from a vast body of studies and literature.
I'm not buying that it's some kind of biologic imperative for women to be hung up on the career and income of their partner.
My point was not that in general women don't care about this, I'm sure they do. My point was that it depends on the circumstances of what the women determine as valuable. When it's high earning women in my circle, they don't get a status boost from having a high earning husband.
My point was that what constitutes status depends on the social milieu.
TP has stated repeatedly that one partner working and one partner not is pretty much guaranteed to lead to resentment and problems in a marriage. Now they're suggesting, I think, that it's partly because women have a biological imperative to partner with men with enough "status" from career and wealth??
That's simply not my lived experience.
Also, yeah, I'm sharing a personal anecdote, I am not speaking for all women, I'm simply demonstrating how the social behaviours and expectations of an out-group can be different. And all of TP's comments have been in relation to the FIRE community, which is a major out-group, so even if larger populational studies supported this claim, then it's not a given that it applies to the FIRE community in general.
I'm perfectly fine acknowledging that a man earning more is a social expectation, and that many women who subscribe to gender norms feel pressure to only date men with higher incomes and more prestigious careers. This is established by decades of history. However, as I said, gender dynamics are changing, and so are social norms.
Nowhere are social norms and expectations changed more radically than in the damn FIRE community.
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Yup, there is a difference between observing a modest aggregate trend in a population as a whole, and assuming that trend applies to every (or even most) individuals. It's also interesting to see how quickly the discussion goes from "couples where the husband works and the wife doesn't vs those where the wife works and the husband doesn't" to "it's because women want X".
Going back to the studies on income imbalance (because I don't know any giant statistical surveys in the effects of FIRE itself and this seems like the best proxy): Husbands who earn less than their wives tend to overstate their earnings on survey questions. They also understate the earnings of their wives by more than they overstate their own. Wives who earn more than their husbands tend to understate their earnings on survey questions and overstate the earnings of their husbands by more than they understate their own earnings.* To me this outcomes suggests that whatever societal expectation we are seeing the aggregate impact of across the population -- if any -- are reflected in the thinking of both (some) women AND (some) men, rather than being a unique result of only men's preferences or only women's preferences.
*Source: https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/working-papers/2018/demo/SEHSD-WP2018-20.pdf
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Yup, there is a difference between observing a modest aggregate trend in a population as a whole, and assuming that trend applies to every (or even most) individuals. It's also interesting to see how quickly the discussion goes from "couples where the husband works and the wife doesn't vs those where the wife works and the husband doesn't" to "it's because women want X".
Going back to the studies on income imbalance (because I don't know any giant statistical surveys in the effects of FIRE itself and this seems like the best proxy): Husbands who earn less than their wives tend to overstate their earnings on survey questions. They also understate the earnings of their wives by more than they overstate their own. Wives who earn more than their husbands tend to understate their earnings on survey questions and overstate the earnings of their husbands by more than they understate their own earnings.* To me this outcomes suggests that whatever societal expectation we are seeing the aggregate impact of across the population -- if any -- are reflected in the thinking of both (some) women AND (some) men, rather than being a unique result of only men's preferences or only women's preferences.
*Source: https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/working-papers/2018/demo/SEHSD-WP2018-20.pdf
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Funny you mention this, because in my personal experience with women who make a lot of money, it wasn't the women who wanted men who made more money, it was the men who were unwilling to date women who made more money. A lot of these women specifically want men with less demanding jobs, the kind that can be left to pick up sick kids from school, but a lot of those men were put off. That's why there's social value among my circle of being able to find a supportive man who is comfortable with a woman's career taking priority in the marriage. It's not always the easiest thing to secure.
So yeah, the social pressure goes both ways. I personally find it's rapidly changing though, and I don't think this dynamic is nearly as prevalent among young people these days.
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If you FIRE, and travel around the world, do something interesting involving two people, you will probably not have a problem.
If you leanFIRE, you may not have resources to do many things, just stay at home, write your own "novel", I can see a potential problem with your partner.
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I don't post here much, being more of a lurker. But DH and I REed on the same day in 2015. Our marriage is still very strong, maybe stronger than it was before early retirement because we are obviously around each other more. We've been married for about 12 years total now. DH did go back to work about 1 year after ER and he worked less than 1 year. It wasn't that we needed the cash. We wanted a mortgage and it's far easier to get one when you have a paycheck coming in. We can afford to pay off our house completely in cash (even could then) but we got such a low mortgage rate that it's better for our money to sit in the market than to pay it off immediately. But outside of that, neither of us has worked any sort of paying job since REing in 2015.
I don't think FIRE changes the rate of divorce. Divorce is already common for a myriad of reasons. RE is a major life change. Major life changes can absolutely change things for people personally. Maybe RE wasn't for Dr. Doom's wife. Maybe she never really wanted it and just did it because Dr. Doom wanted it. Maybe she did want it and find out it wasn't for her. Or maybe she changed her mind. All of those are valid things. I really dislike the fact that she went the infidelity route and personally find that unacceptable, but her unhappiness with how her life was and wanting different things itself is valid.
When you retire, whether that's early or not, I feel like you need a game plan. Leaving work is a dramatic change. What are you going to fill your day with instead of work? What sorts of things make you feel personally fulfilled in life? Do you have socialization outside of work? If not, then what are you going to get involved with that will let you make friends and interact with people?
Also, be aware that existing relationships with people may change. Maybe you will feel like you have less in common with them. DH and I don't have children, but even when we still worked, I absolutely saw relationships change just because of marital status and child status. The people with children and the people without children suddenly had a bit less in common and sometimes their friendships fell apart. Retiring can cause similar things to happen. It doesn't necessarily have to be jealousy. Maybe you bonded over complaining about work. Maybe you mostly saw each other AT work. Maybe you now want different things.
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Maybe gender roles play a part in this. DH and my BIL both have the man works to support his family hard-wired. Is it easier when the husband works and the wife doesn't?
I'm coming a little late to this conversation, but I think there could well be some truth to this. One thing we don't know is how Dr. Doom and his wife allocated household maintenance. If (speculatively) Ms. Doom was already doing more maintenance work (because of gender role expectations), and then felt that she wanted to go back to work while Dr. Doom didn't - or alternatively if the work was evenly split but she felt that it would continue to be evenly split even if she was the only one working - I can see how she would feel a nagging unfairness. I have no idea if this was actually the case but it's not mentioned in the piece.
Not defending either of them; not enough information.
edit: also not defending adultery. I'm only wondering about the beginnings of the conflict.
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Although it was posted on 3/25/2021, I did not know it until yesterday, that Arebelspy, another well-known figure in this community, is also divorced recently.
There might be something to ponder about the cases, MMM, Dr. Doom, Arebelspy, (maybe) and others. We cannot blame FIRE for their divorces, but we cannot ignore the facts. It is a better attitude to deal with it, not ignore it.
Based what I read, it seems that the FIRE journeys of the three persons were pushed mainly by themselves. Their partners played minor roles. The partners might not be willingly on board of the FIRE businesses.
FIREing can result in an action to move away from your familiar communities (moving to a different location, into woods, travelling around the world). In many cases, that puts women in difficult situations as many of them need social interactions with friends, co-workers, etc.
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Although it was posted on 3/25/2021, I did not know it until yesterday, that Arebelspy, another well-known figure in this community, is also divorced recently.
There might be something to ponder about the cases, MMM, Dr. Doom, Arebelspy, (maybe) and others. We cannot blame FIRE for their divorces, but we cannot ignore the facts. It is a better attitude to deal with it, not ignore it.
Based what I read, it seems that the FIRE journeys of the three persons were pushed mainly by themselves. Their partners played minor roles. The partners might not be willingly on board of the FIRE businesses.
FIREing can result in an action to move away from your familiar communities (moving to a different location, into woods, travelling around the world). In many cases, that puts women in difficult situations as many of them need social interactions with friends, co-workers, etc.
I'm not sure how you got the impression that Mrs. MMM wasn't an active partner in their FIRE goals and success.
I mean, maybe she wasn't, maybe she was dragged along for the ride, but we don't know because the only thing that's publicly known about her is that she's quite private.
The populational rate of divorce is very high, these divorces are not out of the range of normal divorce rates in the population. So there's no reason to assume that FIRE has anything to do with it unless the person specifies that it did play a role, like Doom did.
So yes, do FIRE folks need to be vigilant in their marriages to make sure that they and their partners are on the same page in terms of finances and goals? Of course. But how does that differ from any other couple??
But no, there's nothing about FIRE that would rationally raise divorce rates above those of the overall population. Y'know, the overa population who are drowning in debt, not even talking to their partners about their finances, and can't afford to retire???
Yeah...you really think there's a HIGHER risk of divorce than THAT population???
I think people forget that Gen Pop isn't a happy or healthy population of people on average. Their marriages aren't exactly doing well.
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Although it was posted on 3/25/2021, I did not know it until yesterday, that Arebelspy, another well-known figure in this community, is also divorced recently.
There might be something to ponder about the cases, MMM, Dr. Doom, Arebelspy, (maybe) and others. We cannot blame FIRE for their divorces, but we cannot ignore the facts. It is a better attitude to deal with it, not ignore it.
Based what I read, it seems that the FIRE journeys of the three persons were pushed mainly by themselves. Their partners played minor roles. The partners might not be willingly on board of the FIRE businesses.
FIREing can result in an action to move away from your familiar communities (moving to a different location, into woods, travelling around the world). In many cases, that puts women in difficult situations as many of them need social interactions with friends, co-workers, etc.
I don't know about these specific people, but I suspect there are a LOT of drag-along spouses only pretending to be into FIRE. It just happens with so many things, and it's so, so shitty. Another area where this happens a lot is to childfree people - go to any childfree discussion space and you'll find oodles of people who thought they were happily in childfree relationships, but it turns out the other person wanted kids the whole time, and it eventually comes out and they split. It's happened to me personally when I was younger. I wish people would just be honest from the get-go, seriously. But it seems to be a really common problem.
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Although it was posted on 3/25/2021, I did not know it until yesterday, that Arebelspy, another well-known figure in this community, is also divorced recently.
There might be something to ponder about the cases, MMM, Dr. Doom, Arebelspy, (maybe) and others. We cannot blame FIRE for their divorces, but we cannot ignore the facts. It is a better attitude to deal with it, not ignore it.
Based what I read, it seems that the FIRE journeys of the three persons were pushed mainly by themselves. Their partners played minor roles. The partners might not be willingly on board of the FIRE businesses.
FIREing can result in an action to move away from your familiar communities (moving to a different location, into woods, travelling around the world). In many cases, that puts women in difficult situations as many of them need social interactions with friends, co-workers, etc.
I don't know about these specific people, but I suspect there are a LOT of drag-along spouses only pretending to be into FIRE. It just happens with so many things, and it's so, so shitty. Another area where this happens a lot is to childfree people - go to any childfree discussion space and you'll find oodles of people who thought they were happily in childfree relationships, but it turns out the other person wanted kids the whole time, and it eventually comes out and they split. It's happened to me personally when I was younger. I wish people would just be honest from the get-go, seriously. But it seems to be a really common problem.
Another thing to consider is that no one actually knows if they will enjoy retirement until they achieve it. It's easy (and very reasonable!) to assume that you'll be happier when you stop working and get to spend your time however you please, whenever you please. But there's no way to really know until that's what your life is. in Dr. Doom's update, he suggests that maybe his ex-wife was lying about wanting FIRE the whole time, but what I was hearing from how he characterized her explanation is that FIRE was not what she expected it to be, and she didn't find herself happy the way she imagined she would. To me, that makes a lot more sense than she was lying about what she wanted. Certainly we sometimes dissemble our true desires, but it's also true that people chase goals and become disappointed and disillusioned upon achieving them all the time.
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Although it was posted on 3/25/2021, I did not know it until yesterday, that Arebelspy, another well-known figure in this community, is also divorced recently.
There might be something to ponder about the cases, MMM, Dr. Doom, Arebelspy, (maybe) and others. We cannot blame FIRE for their divorces, but we cannot ignore the facts. It is a better attitude to deal with it, not ignore it.
Based what I read, it seems that the FIRE journeys of the three persons were pushed mainly by themselves. Their partners played minor roles. The partners might not be willingly on board of the FIRE businesses.
FIREing can result in an action to move away from your familiar communities (moving to a different location, into woods, travelling around the world). In many cases, that puts women in difficult situations as many of them need social interactions with friends, co-workers, etc.
I don't know about these specific people, but I suspect there are a LOT of drag-along spouses only pretending to be into FIRE. It just happens with so many things, and it's so, so shitty. Another area where this happens a lot is to childfree people - go to any childfree discussion space and you'll find oodles of people who thought they were happily in childfree relationships, but it turns out the other person wanted kids the whole time, and it eventually comes out and they split. It's happened to me personally when I was younger. I wish people would just be honest from the get-go, seriously. But it seems to be a really common problem.
Yeah, and again, this happens in SO MANY relationships, where one person goes along with another's plans without ever voicing their needs. I don't think the FIRE community has more of that.
It probably has less since it's really hard to pull off FIRE without actively talking about your finances, which increases the chances of someone speaking up.
A lot of normal couples out there literally NEVER talk about their finances, so there isn't even an opportunity to ever voice that one partner is not on the same page.
This is a thing to be concerned about in any marriage, on any topic.
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Although it was posted on 3/25/2021, I did not know it until yesterday, that Arebelspy, another well-known figure in this community, is also divorced recently.
There might be something to ponder about the cases, MMM, Dr. Doom, Arebelspy, (maybe) and others. We cannot blame FIRE for their divorces, but we cannot ignore the facts. It is a better attitude to deal with it, not ignore it.
Based what I read, it seems that the FIRE journeys of the three persons were pushed mainly by themselves. Their partners played minor roles. The partners might not be willingly on board of the FIRE businesses.
FIREing can result in an action to move away from your familiar communities (moving to a different location, into woods, travelling around the world). In many cases, that puts women in difficult situations as many of them need social interactions with friends, co-workers, etc.
I find that statement a bit sexist as I think that can hold true for just about anyone. Lots of women (as we see here at MMM forums) are just as equally interested in changing things when they FIRE as men are. In my personal experience (divorced) it seems men are more tied to their jobs and the status quo compared to women. But that's just my impression. My own FIRE plans, whether single or in a relationship, involved lots of active solo adventures. Sometimes in the woods... alone... in a tent... in the dark... ;-)
In any case I think you are correct that often the changes people may make when FIREing could have a negative, and often unforseen until they experience it, effect on a relationship. One may fully embrace the FIRE life - and even a large variety of change and adventure - and the other may find it a big let down. That could lead to divorce for FIREd people but that may be the case for any couple who make lifestyle changes.
Fucking hell, I missed that little sexist tidbit in my first skim of that post.
Women are the ones who need social interactions???
I'm sorry, how many adult men do we have complaining on a near daily basis about how hard it is to make friends in adulthood???
Since when do women need friends more than men???
Also, why assume that it's men driving a move away from established communities? Also, Doom didn't move anywhere, MMM didn't move anywhere.
I think it's completely inaccurate to depict the FIRE community as having a high proportion of men after retirement dragging woman around the world and tearing them away from their comforting social supports.
Like, how many FIRE couples has this person actually met? Because that does NOT gel with my version of reality.
Also, even if that were the case. There are also tons of higher earning *working* husbands relocating their families for the sake of jobs all the time. So this phenomenon of women being ripped from their friends happens in the working population all the time.
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Yeah, and again, this happens in SO MANY relationships, where one person goes along with another's plans without ever voicing their needs. I don't think the FIRE community has more of that.
It probably has less since it's really hard to pull off FIRE without actively talking about your finances, which increases the chances of someone speaking up.
A lot of normal couples out there literally NEVER talk about their finances, so there isn't even an opportunity to ever voice that one partner is not on the same page.
This is a thing to be concerned about in any marriage, on any topic.
I do think there can be some unique circumstances specific to FIRE though, especially on the consumption front, that can make it trickier to get honest answers out of people. People don't want to see themselves as over-consuming and materialistic, so I would guess that some people aren't going to come right out and say to their FIRE-zealot partner, who's talking about saving the planet etc, that "Actually, I do want to buy all that stuff and consume like crazy until the day I die". It just makes someone kind of sound like a piece of shit to admit it, you know? I don't know what the solution is though. Of course, people should just be honest, but a lot of people aren't even honest with themselves about what they actually want.
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Yeah, and again, this happens in SO MANY relationships, where one person goes along with another's plans without ever voicing their needs. I don't think the FIRE community has more of that.
It probably has less since it's really hard to pull off FIRE without actively talking about your finances, which increases the chances of someone speaking up.
A lot of normal couples out there literally NEVER talk about their finances, so there isn't even an opportunity to ever voice that one partner is not on the same page.
This is a thing to be concerned about in any marriage, on any topic.
I do think there can be some unique circumstances specific to FIRE though, especially on the consumption front, that can make it trickier to get honest answers out of people. People don't want to see themselves as over-consuming and materialistic, so I would guess that some people aren't going to come right out and say to their FIRE-zealot partner, who's talking about saving the planet etc, that "Actually, I do want to buy all that stuff and consume like crazy until the day I die". It just makes someone kind of sound like a piece of shit to admit it, you know? I don't know what the solution is though. Of course, people should just be honest, but a lot of people aren't even honest with themselves about what they actually want.
I don't necessarily agree. I think on average people are pretty comfortable claiming their preferred lifestyles and priorities when it comes to what they want to spend.
That's why they say they "need" a certain sized house and "need" and SUV, etc.
There wouldn't be so many beautiful stone countertops out there if people were shy about expressing to their partners what they want to spend more money on.
Plus you have to either seek out a FIRE zealot partner or have a partner become a FIRE zealot. So either it's something the person wanted in the first place, or its something new, and people are generally pretty amazing at resisting change.
If there's someone who is poor enough at speaking up for their own needs in the face of a partner who becomes a FIRE zealot against their desires, then that person was going to have problems in any marriage. Because ALL marriages require HUGE major collective decisions.
It's not like so called "normal" marriages are easy and devoid of extremely complex financial dynamics.
FIRE doesn't make those financial negotiations harder, it just changes the flavour of them.
Being aligned with another human being in terms of all major priorities for decades on end until death is just hard.
Something being unique to FIRE doesn't mean it is uniquely hard. Just like something being common doesn't make it easier. Debt is common, it isn't easy.
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I don't know about these specific people, but I suspect there are a LOT of drag-along spouses only pretending to be into FIRE. It just happens with so many things, and it's so, so shitty. Another area where this happens a lot is to childfree people - go to any childfree discussion space and you'll find oodles of people who thought they were happily in childfree relationships, but it turns out the other person wanted kids the whole time, and it eventually comes out and they split. It's happened to me personally when I was younger. I wish people would just be honest from the get-go, seriously. But it seems to be a really common problem.
This makes a lot of sense.....especially as it compares to having kids.....it's basically winer lose, it's not like you can have half of a kid. Just like you really can't have half of FIRE. This is the primary reason I wanted to fat FIRE bc we are partners and my lack of desires don't match her desires. I still worry about this bc DW is more spendy and keeping up with others, but we are great together and I don't want this to be an issue, even if we already have different expectations.
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I don't know about these specific people, but I suspect there are a LOT of drag-along spouses only pretending to be into FIRE. It just happens with so many things, and it's so, so shitty. Another area where this happens a lot is to childfree people - go to any childfree discussion space and you'll find oodles of people who thought they were happily in childfree relationships, but it turns out the other person wanted kids the whole time, and it eventually comes out and they split. It's happened to me personally when I was younger. I wish people would just be honest from the get-go, seriously. But it seems to be a really common problem.
This makes a lot of sense.....especially as it compares to having kids.....it's basically winer lose, it's not like you can have half of a kid. Just like you really can't have half of FIRE. This is the primary reason I wanted to fat FIRE bc we are partners and my lack of desires don't match her desires. I still worry about this bc DW is more spendy and keeping up with others, but we are great together and I don't want this to be an issue, even if we already have different expectations.
Actually you absolutely can have half of FIRE. It's not like she expects you to never retire, right? You have to plan to stop working at some point, so how early you do that can be a compromise.
So if you could retire at 35 on your preferred numbers, but she wants to spend a lot more and you meet in the middle and retire at 50, then you've split the difference. You work an extra 15 yours, but you also retire 15 years earlier than 65.
If she gets that you need to retire at some point, and that the money hose gets shut off at that point, then she already is prepared for hoh to stop working. Exactly when is up for negotiation.
Then on top of that, there's always the option to continue doing some degree of paid work, or even returning to work.
Doom's wife wanted him to go back to work to fund more lifestyle inflation, which he didn't want to do. But he's happily going back to work to support his new girlfriend being able to retire happily with him.
FIRE is not at all like a baby, it's actually remarkably flexible, negotiable, and there are always options of going back to work.
Not being on the same page financially is a major issue in any marriage. You can't out-earn a discrepancy in life goals. Eventually you have to be on the same page.
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Yeah, and again, this happens in SO MANY relationships, where one person goes along with another's plans without ever voicing their needs. I don't think the FIRE community has more of that.
It probably has less since it's really hard to pull off FIRE without actively talking about your finances, which increases the chances of someone speaking up.
A lot of normal couples out there literally NEVER talk about their finances, so there isn't even an opportunity to ever voice that one partner is not on the same page.
This is a thing to be concerned about in any marriage, on any topic.
I do think there can be some unique circumstances specific to FIRE though, especially on the consumption front, that can make it trickier to get honest answers out of people. People don't want to see themselves as over-consuming and materialistic, so I would guess that some people aren't going to come right out and say to their FIRE-zealot partner, who's talking about saving the planet etc, that "Actually, I do want to buy all that stuff and consume like crazy until the day I die". It just makes someone kind of sound like a piece of shit to admit it, you know? I don't know what the solution is though. Of course, people should just be honest, but a lot of people aren't even honest with themselves about what they actually want.
I don't necessarily agree. I think on average people are pretty comfortable claiming their preferred lifestyles and priorities when it comes to what they want to spend.
That's why they say they "need" a certain sized house and "need" and SUV, etc.
There wouldn't be so many beautiful stone countertops out there if people were shy about expressing to their partners what they want to spend more money on.
Plus you have to either seek out a FIRE zealot partner or have a partner become a FIRE zealot. So either it's something the person wanted in the first place, or its something new, and people are generally pretty amazing at resisting change.
If there's someone who is poor enough at speaking up for their own needs in the face of a partner who becomes a FIRE zealot against their desires, then that person was going to have problems in any marriage. Because ALL marriages require HUGE major collective decisions.
It's not like so called "normal" marriages are easy and devoid of extremely complex financial dynamics.
FIRE doesn't make those financial negotiations harder, it just changes the flavour of them.
Being aligned with another human being in terms of all major priorities for decades on end until death is just hard.
Something being unique to FIRE doesn't mean it is uniquely hard. Just like something being common doesn't make it easier. Debt is common, it isn't easy.
Malcat you are generally well intentioned in your comments but in this one other than it can be hard is misplaced. Just like the decision to have kids can go only one way, FIRE can be equally so. I have been with DW forever and love her to death but what is important to me spending wise vs hers is different but add to that that I was just done with work (burnt out to the nth degree). And while she "bought in" at her core she wants to keep up with the higher income people. In all other aspects we are sympatico but in this we are not......it's tough to reconcile.
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Malcat you are generally well intentioned in your comments but in this one other than it can be hard is misplaced. Just like the decision to have kids can go only one way, FIRE can be equally so. I have been with DW forever and love her to death but what is important to me spending wise vs hers is different but add to that that I was just done with work (burnt out to the nth degree). And while she "bought in" at her core she wants to keep up with the higher income people. In all other aspects we are sympatico but in this we are not......it's tough to reconcile.
Actually I totally get it, but having to retire because of burnout is totally different from choosing to FIRE, at least from my perspective.
Here's why: I had to leave my career, which dramatically changed our circumstances, our goals, and our plans. I didn't FIRE, I retired because I had to.
If my DH was struggling with losing the lifestyle we could have afforded had I continued working, yeah, that would be brutal. I 100% understand how challenging that must be.
If you had had the capacity to keep working though, I imagine you probably would have in order to get closer to her desired lifestyle? That's what I'm meant by negotiable. I'm referring to people who are retiring early by choice.
Not people who are experiencing severe burnout, and have already probably worked several years past their capacity and are suffering for it. That's not FIRE, that's necessary medical retirement.
There's a reason I don't refer to my situation as FIRE. I didn't choose this. I would have worked 7 more years to hit my FIRE savings goal. I didn't make it to FIRE, I had to tap out early, and it sounds like you had to as well.
Yeah, that's hard.
ETA: my situation is easier than yours tough, I still have a 6 figure earning spouse who is more than happy to work to 60, which compensates for the loss of my larger income. Also, my reason for having to retire is physical injury and illness, which tends to be much easier for a spouse to accept as a non negotiable need to stop working, even though severe burnout is just as medically valid and urgent IMO. Lastly, it's also easier because my DH is the more frugal of the two of us, so I'm the one more disappointed by my lost income, and am constantly contemplating building a new career that I can medically handle to earn more. He's the one constantly telling me that we don't need more money.
So if I find my situation hard, I can totally understand why you find yours incredibly difficult.
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Sometimes one spouse has a dominating personality and doesn’t really listen to the other person. If the other person is conflict resistant or just conflicted this could lead to the more dominant spouse not realizing their goals are not in alignment. Also sometimes the weaker spouse doesn’t realize it themes for awhile.
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Although it was posted on 3/25/2021, I did not know it until yesterday, that Arebelspy, another well-known figure in this community, is also divorced recently.
There might be something to ponder about the cases, MMM, Dr. Doom, Arebelspy, (maybe) and others. We cannot blame FIRE for their divorces, but we cannot ignore the facts. It is a better attitude to deal with it, not ignore it.
Based what I read, it seems that the FIRE journeys of the three persons were pushed mainly by themselves. Their partners played minor roles. The partners might not be willingly on board of the FIRE businesses.
FIREing can result in an action to move away from your familiar communities (moving to a different location, into woods, travelling around the world). In many cases, that puts women in difficult situations as many of them need social interactions with friends, co-workers, etc.
Wow! That is shocking news! Feels wrong to know it, but truly shocking with 3 young kids. My thoughts go out to them all.
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FIRE is a major life changing event, just as having kids, having your kids leave the nest or regular retirement. I know people who have divorced because of all of these lifestyle changes as well. It tends to be because the couple agrees with the concept, when the event happens it actually effects one spouses goals and desires in a way neither predicted and eventually leads to them no longer being as compatible as they once were. We all change, with spouses the changes can bring you closer or drive you apart.
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Malcat you are generally well intentioned in your comments but in this one other than it can be hard is misplaced. Just like the decision to have kids can go only one way, FIRE can be equally so. I have been with DW forever and love her to death but what is important to me spending wise vs hers is different but add to that that I was just done with work (burnt out to the nth degree). And while she "bought in" at her core she wants to keep up with the higher income people. In all other aspects we are sympatico but in this we are not......it's tough to reconcile.
I of course don't know the details of your situation, but it seems to me that lack of agreement on financial goals and priorities would have existed regardless of your decision/need to retire. One or both of you were already compromising - either you were planning to work for money you didn't really want or think you needed, or she was accepting a lifestyle and spending level that wasn't what she wanted, or both. That's an issue that would have caused tension and needed to be discussed and reconciled even if you had kept working. Your need to retire (and I agree with Malcat that burnout is a real medical condition that deserves just as much respect as more visible injury) just forced the conversation that you might have been successfully avoiding before, it didn't create an issue that wasn't present under the surface. It did bring some of the compromise options off the table, though, which makes it more difficult than reconciling different goals under better circumstances.
Best of luck getting through this difficult time!
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I don't know about these specific people, but I suspect there are a LOT of drag-along spouses only pretending to be into FIRE. It just happens with so many things, and it's so, so shitty. Another area where this happens a lot is to childfree people - go to any childfree discussion space and you'll find oodles of people who thought they were happily in childfree relationships, but it turns out the other person wanted kids the whole time, and it eventually comes out and they split. It's happened to me personally when I was younger. I wish people would just be honest from the get-go, seriously. But it seems to be a really common problem.
This makes a lot of sense.....especially as it compares to having kids.....it's basically winer lose, it's not like you can have half of a kid. Just like you really can't have half of FIRE. This is the primary reason I wanted to fat FIRE bc we are partners and my lack of desires don't match her desires. I still worry about this bc DW is more spendy and keeping up with others, but we are great together and I don't want this to be an issue, even if we already have different expectations.
We are on the path to fat FIRE (probably Chubby FIRE) which I do see as half of FIRE. We could both leave work today, cut some expenses, and have great lives. However, we are working a little while longer to have even greater lives and help more people in the future. The additional work will be 10-36 months, not sure yet, but we are talking about it and trying to determine our goals and risk acceptance together.
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Sometimes one spouse has a dominating personality and doesn’t really listen to the other person. If the other person is conflict resistant or just conflicted this could lead to the more dominant spouse not realizing their goals are not in alignment. Also sometimes the weaker spouse doesn’t realize it themes for awhile.
True, but that would be a problem in any marriage, no?
Working more and spending more wouldn't solve that.
Working more and spending more doesn't lower the probability of having money problems in a marriage.
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I think what is at major play here is genetic.
Hypogamy is where a woman has a need to be with someone with a certain status above them. FIRE changes peoples status in society and unless she is totally onboard with this, it is going to cause some major disturbances in the force. Probably better to wait when you a FIRE before marrying or make sure you have 100% buy-in. People can say they know what they would be cool with, but experiencing it is a different story.
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I think what is at major play here is genetic.
Hypogamy is where a woman has a need to be with someone with a certain status above them.
Oh JFC.
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I think what is at major play here is genetic.
Hypogamy is where a woman has a need to be with someone with a certain status above them. FIRE changes peoples status in society and unless she is totally onboard with this, it is going to cause some major disturbances in the force. Probably better to wait when you a FIRE before marrying or make sure you have 100% buy-in. People can say they know what they would be cool with, but experiencing it is a different story.
Misogonistic much? Troll.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypogamy
hypogamy
noun
hy·pog·a·my | \ hīˈpägəmē, hə̇ˈ- \
plural -es
Definition of hypogamy
: marriage into a lower caste, class, or social group
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I think what is at major play here is genetic.
Hypogamy is where a woman has a need to be with someone with a certain status above them.
Such silly creatures with their inherently flawed ladybrains.
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I think what is at major play here is genetic.
Hypogamy is where a woman has a need to be with someone with a certain status above them.
Such silly creatures with their inherently flawed ladybrains.
I think you forgot this: /s
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I think the poster meant to say hypergamy. Regardless, it is a tired, sexist cliche.
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Hypergamy is a social construct. Niles Eldredge discusses it in "Why We Do It".
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I think the poster meant to say hypergamy. Regardless, it is a tired, sexist cliche.
Unbelievable.
Doom specifically indicated untreated mental health issues, and that she exhibited a number of callous, unreasonable expectations, and said cruel and hurtful things about his health.
And apparently that's because genetically women are awful? Not because this particular person struggled with emotional problems?
What the actual fuck?
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I think the poster meant to say hypergamy. Regardless, it is a tired, sexist cliche.
Unbelievable.
Doom specifically indicated untreated mental health issues, and that she exhibited a number of callous, unreasonable expectations, and said cruel and hurtful things about his health.
And apparently that's because genetically women are awful? Not because this particular person struggled with emotional problems?
/me puts on flameproof suit
I don't agree with the "genetic" portion of the argument, but an ingrained cultural aspiration to "marry up" has been an aspect of many cultures for centuries, and an accompanytendency to base one's self esteem on the perceived success of one's partner is quite common as well. I can imagine that if this was the case for the ex-Mrs. Doom, his retirement (and thus "lack of success [in the workforce]") could impact her self-worth, and that could manifest itself via hurtful comments, unreasonable expectations, etc.
Is is possible for a cultural tradition to become so ingrained that it affects genetics?
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I think what is at major play here is genetic.
Hypogamy is where a woman has a need to be with someone with a certain status above them. FIRE changes peoples status in society and unless she is totally onboard with this, it is going to cause some major disturbances in the force. Probably better to wait when you a FIRE before marrying or make sure you have 100% buy-in. People can say they know what they would be cool with, but experiencing it is a different story.
Imagine actually believing this. 🙄
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I think the poster meant to say hypergamy. Regardless, it is a tired, sexist cliche.
Unbelievable.
Doom specifically indicated untreated mental health issues, and that she exhibited a number of callous, unreasonable expectations, and said cruel and hurtful things about his health.
And apparently that's because genetically women are awful? Not because this particular person struggled with emotional problems?
/me puts on flameproof suit
I don't agree with the "genetic" portion of the argument, but an ingrained cultural aspiration to "marry up" has been an aspect of many cultures for centuries, and an accompanytendency to base one's self esteem on the perceived success of one's partner is quite common as well. I can imagine that if this was the case for the ex-Mrs. Doom, his retirement (and thus "lack of success [in the workforce]") could impact her self-worth, and that could manifest itself via hurtful comments, unreasonable expectations, etc.
Is is possible for a cultural tradition to become so ingrained that it affects genetics?
I believe I already covered it in this very thread already.
I will simply say that basically everyone wants a spouse that they can be proud of, and yes, social expectations will colour what factors make people feel proud. Those factors change over time, and are highly individual.
For one woman it might be a high earning spouse, for another it might be a doting stay at home fathers, for another it might be someone with athletic ability, and for yet another it might be someone with incredible artistic talent, etc, etc.
Also, genetics 101, there are NO SPECIFIC FEMALE GENES.
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Is is possible for a cultural tradition to become so ingrained that it affects genetics?
In principle yes. In practice, you would need much MUCH stronger selection (e.g. an awful lot of children or young adults dying before they have the opportunity to reproduce, and/or really big differences in the number of children couples are ABLE to have) for culture to produce detectable changes in allele frequency.
And that assumes there is standing genetic variation for the trait is question AND the trait is controlled by genetic factors in the first place (eye color: major genetic effects. height: lots of genetics and lots of environmental effects, taste in music: essentially all environmental).
The problem evolutionary psych all too often has is assuming that every just-so story for how trait X could be adaptive is 1) actually adaptive 2) has a strong enough effect to actually produce detectable selection 3) is a trait which is actually controlled by genetics in the first place 4) not only is the trait genetic but there's a genetic mechanism to produce DIFFERENT outcomes in men and women.*
*Assume women with blue eyes tend to have more children who survive to adulthood than women with brown eyes. But men with brown eyes have more children who survive to adulthood than men with blue eyes. Since eye color isn't a sex linked trait, alleles that produce blue eyes will provide an advantage to a woman but a disadvantage to her sons and alleles that produce brown eyes will provide an advantage to a man but a disadvantage for his daughters and selection won't produce a society of blue eyed women and brown eyed men.
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Is is possible for a cultural tradition to become so ingrained that it affects genetics?
In principle yes. In practice, you would need much MUCH stronger selection (e.g. an awful lot of children or young adults dying before they have the opportunity to reproduce, and/or really big differences in the number of children couples are ABLE to have) for culture to produce detectable changes in allele frequency.
And that assumes there is standing genetic variation for the trait is question AND the trait is controlled by genetic factors in the first place (eye color: major genetic effects. height: lots of genetics and lots of environmental effects, taste in music: essentially all environmental).
The problem evolutionary psych all too often has is assuming that every just-so story for how trait X could be adaptive is 1) actually adaptive 2) has a strong enough effect to actually produce detectable selection 3) is a trait which is actually controlled by genetics in the first place 4) not only is the trait genetic but there's a genetic mechanism to produce DIFFERENT outcomes in men and women.*
*Assume women with blue eyes tend to have more children who survive to adulthood than women with brown eyes. But men with brown eyes have more children who survive to adulthood than men with blue eyes. Since eye color isn't a sex linked trait, alleles that produce blue eyes will provide an advantage to a woman but a disadvantage to her sons and alleles that produce brown eyes will provide an advantage to a man but a disadvantage for his daughters and selection won't produce a society of blue eyed women and brown eyed men.
I think a lot of people don't realize that the differences between men and women aren't primarily genetic, they're hormonal.
There are no specifically female genes to pass down. NONE. They do not exist.
All genes get passed down to both males and females, except for the Y chromosome, which has very, very few genes on it.
So almost no features that differentiate females and males are genetic. The Y chromosome just triggers that the genes get expressed differently.
All embryos will develop female by default. So technically, we all inherit all female genes. The Y chromosome just interrupts that default female development and floods the system with enough testosterone to develop male instead. (This is obviously simplified, but makes the basic point).
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Is is possible for a cultural tradition to become so ingrained that it affects genetics?
In principle yes. In practice, you would need much MUCH stronger selection (e.g. an awful lot of children or young adults dying before they have the opportunity to reproduce, and/or really big differences in the number of children couples are ABLE to have) for culture to produce detectable changes in allele frequency.
And that assumes there is standing genetic variation for the trait is question AND the trait is controlled by genetic factors in the first place (eye color: major genetic effects. height: lots of genetics and lots of environmental effects, taste in music: essentially all environmental).
The problem evolutionary psych all too often has is assuming that every just-so story for how trait X could be adaptive is 1) actually adaptive 2) has a strong enough effect to actually produce detectable selection 3) is a trait which is actually controlled by genetics in the first place 4) not only is the trait genetic but there's a genetic mechanism to produce DIFFERENT outcomes in men and women.*
*Assume women with blue eyes tend to have more children who survive to adulthood than women with brown eyes. But men with brown eyes have more children who survive to adulthood than men with blue eyes. Since eye color isn't a sex linked trait, alleles that produce blue eyes will provide an advantage to a woman but a disadvantage to her sons and alleles that produce brown eyes will provide an advantage to a man but a disadvantage for his daughters and selection won't produce a society of blue eyed women and brown eyed men.
I think a lot of people don't realize that the differences between men and women aren't primarily genetic, they're hormonal.
There are no specifically female genes to pass down. NONE. They do not exist.
All genes get passed down to both males and females, except for the Y chromosome, which has very, very few genes on it.
So almost no features that differentiate females and males are genetic. The Y chromosome just triggers that the genes get expressed differently.
All embryos will develop female by default. So technically, we all inherit all female genes. The Y chromosome just interrupts that default female development and floods the system with enough testosterone to develop male instead. (This is obviously simplified, but makes the basic point).
Also, it should be noted that there have been several meta-analyses that show that when we look at a wide variety of behavioral and personality traits and dispositions, there is much greater intrasex variance (ie., comparing males to other males) than there is intersex variance (ie. comparing males to females).
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people who think that there are genetic differences between men and women have failed, biology 101.
Bottom line people marry people whom they enjoy spending time with, that they are good friends, companions, partners.
I imagine if you looked at actual marriages for most of history most marriages were with relative peers, in the sense the two "families" were in the same social, cultural sphere. You have to understand a woman "choosing" her partner is relatively recent. The women's family had a large say. As far as hypergamy marrying "up" was the only way a female could aspire to a higher social status as most women were effectively barred from work and their only sphere was the home. Who know where the women would be financially, etc if they could work? Maybe they were simply choosing someone they saw as a peer to them.
Now that women can and do work, I have been hearing both the hypergamy argument. AND the fact that women don't "need" men financially and can choose their own sexual partners and this is somehow a problem. Well which one is it? Are women naturally gold diggers? If so why would guys be upset that women can earn money and don't need to depend on a man for living? You would think they would welcome this but they don't. Bottom line what seems to be threatening is the fact of women having choice. Females choosing their own mates, or choosing a female mate, or choosing maybe no mate, than hypergamy.
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Now that women can and do workearn money full time
Women have always done work.
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So much to unpack here! And I definitely have some opinions on the whole "men vs women" thing, but that'll have to wait until I can figure out a way to properly articulate what I mean without it coming off in a way I don't mean for it to.
*glances nervously at #Cancel FinCon thread*
To the topic of the alarming number of divorces happening to those who are retiring early. I think many are focusing too hard on the "retiring" part than they are the "early" part. How old are those who are retiring early? What is the average divorce rate among that age group? Is there really that big a difference? If a lot of people in the 35-45 age range get divorced, then why are we so surprised that a lot of people in the 35-45 age range are getting divorced? Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm just not that surprised that a lot of people are getting divorced. I'm sure some are getting divorced BECAUSE their spouse retired, and I'm sure some are actually NOT getting divorced because of the non-existent work related stress. Does it balance out perfectly? Doubtful, but I haven't seen evidence that points to retiring early being a huge detriment to a long lasting marriage (and with the stories posted here, I also see no evidence that points to it virtually guaranteeing a rock-solid marriage).
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Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm just not that surprised that a lot of people are getting divorced. I'm sure some are getting divorced BECAUSE their spouse retired, and I'm sure some are actually NOT getting divorced because of the non-existent work related stress. Does it balance out perfectly? Doubtful, but I haven't seen evidence that points to retiring early being a huge detriment to a long lasting marriage (and with the stories posted here, I also see no evidence that points to it virtually guaranteeing a rock-solid marriage).
And as Malcat (I think) points out, even modestly higher divorce numbers for people who FIRE vs age matched cohorts can be a good thing if that difference is the result of couples that make each other miserable but who couldn't afford to get divorced in the non-FIREd control group.
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And as Malcat (I think) points out, even modestly higher divorce numbers for people who FIRE vs age matched cohorts can be a good thing if that difference is the result of couples that make each other miserable but who couldn't afford to get divorced in the non-FIREd control group.
Personally, I'd love to see an actual study on this. Though, I'm the weirdo that likes to read studies just because. Until then I'm assuming the numbers roughly (but not exactly) balance out. About as many people get divorced specifically due to the other spouse retiring early as those who don't get divorced for the exact same reason. The majority get divorced because they were going to anyway, it just seems to be a thing that happens.
I'll never admit to it on Facebook, but it's interesting to watch this play out among your friends group (who are mostly grouped in the same age range). Hrm, so-and-so is suddenly posting a lot of lovey-dovey stuff about their significant other...won't be long until the...yup there's the split. Then some bouncing around, multiple relationship status changes, then slowly they all start settling down again. Luckily my wife doesn't post lovey-dovey stuff about me that often (maybe once or twice total), so I'm not too worried.
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And as Malcat (I think) points out, even modestly higher divorce numbers for people who FIRE vs age matched cohorts can be a good thing if that difference is the result of couples that make each other miserable but who couldn't afford to get divorced in the non-FIREd control group.
Personally, I'd love to see an actual study on this. Though, I'm the weirdo that likes to read studies just because. Until then I'm assuming the numbers roughly (but not exactly) balance out. About as many people get divorced specifically due to the other spouse retiring early as those who don't get divorced for the exact same reason. The majority get divorced because they were going to anyway, it just seems to be a thing that happens.
I'll never admit to it on Facebook, but it's interesting to watch this play out among your friends group (who are mostly grouped in the same age range). Hrm, so-and-so is suddenly posting a lot of lovey-dovey stuff about their significant other...won't be long until the...yup there's the split. Then some bouncing around, multiple relationship status changes, then slowly they all start settling down again. Luckily my wife doesn't post lovey-dovey stuff about me that often (maybe once or twice total), so I'm not too worried.
This is part of the reason I got rid of facebook.
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Huh, I'm not particularly active on facebook and haven't been for years. Fascinating that you've been able to spot such a pattern.
In terms of doing an actual study, I just don't thin there are nearly enough FIREd couples out there in the world to generate a sufficiently statistically powered dataset (particularly once you control for the small fraction of folks who are interested in participating in research).
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Huh, I'm not particularly active on facebook and haven't been for years. Fascinating that you've been able to spot such a pattern.
To be clear, the flood of "she's the best most awesome mother to our kids" posts on mother's day don't count. But if you see a long anti-rant about how awesome someone's partner is, completely out of left field...keep an eye out. Especially if they've been together a long time (if it's a new relationship, you can pretty much ignore the lovey dovey stuff being posted, that's going to happen regardless; I'm talking the couple who's been married for over a decade and all of a sudden the wife is posting pages about how great a person their husband is, how awesome of a father to his children he is...shit's about to go down). I mean, it doesn't always start with the positivity rants, sometimes it goes straight to the very public shouting match. And sometimes they manage to keep all evidence of marital issues hidden from facebook. Regardless, those in my friends group are still very much in the breaking-up-and-hooking-up stage.
If only there were a term that we could throw around for people of the age, around the mid-point of their lives, to serve as a catch-all for such behavior. I nominate "mid-life flux". Has a nice ring to it.
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Is there a correlation between which partner posts the gushing expression of undying love, and which partner is the one that breaks off the relationship? I.e. is the gushing partner trying to fool themselves (or the rest of the world), or is the gushing partner trying to salvage the relationship? Or is there even any correlation at all?
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No idea. I'm generally only friends with one half of a couple. I wouldn't see what the other half posts unless the one on my friends list commented on it.
As for shouting matches...well, you gotta be quick to catch those, they seem to be deleted shortly after the blowup. I've only seen a couple, but I'm guessing there's quite a few more that I haven't seen (I don't stalk Facebook all day, I lurk here too you know). I have caught bits and pieces of sniping that seems to follow a big blowup.
Sometimes you feel like you should step in and help out in some way. Then you realize that would help absolutely nothing, so you decide to just stay out of it. I don't want anyone to have to go through all that drama, but if they're going to anyway...might as well enjoy a tub of freshly popped popcorn while watching it from a distance.
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Is there a correlation between which partner posts the gushing expression of undying love, and which partner is the one that breaks off the relationship? I.e. is the gushing partner trying to fool themselves (or the rest of the world), or is the gushing partner trying to salvage the relationship? Or is there even any correlation at all?
My personal experience says 50/50. The one I say uh oh to is "my marriage is the strongest it's ever been". This has been said to me by both a cheater and someone who was cheated on prior to the next affair. I feel like the real correlation is with it being said by whoever is most desperate to believe it is true.
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To the topic of the alarming number of divorces happening to those who are retiring early. I think many are focusing too hard on the "retiring" part than they are the "early" part. How old are those who are retiring early? What is the average divorce rate among that age group?
I too would like to see a study on this. Is there really an alarming number of divorces happening among those who retire early?
For every MMM or Dr Doom whose early retirement that ended in divorce, there is a Billy & Akaisha or a Jeremy & Winnie whose early retirement didn't. 50 / 50, kinda like the overall probability of divorce.
It seems that there are certain life transition points that occur, in which couples either find a way to work things out or they don't: a major illness, the death of a child, becoming empty-nesters, retirement, etc. Early or otherwise retirement is a transition that can be successfully navigated as a couple or not. Maybe it just seems there are an alarming number of divorces among early those who retire early just because a few of our gurus and influencers happened to get divorced.
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I'm not really on Facebook any more, but I've heard several people say a similar thing to @NumberJohnny5 : that if a long-term couple suddenly starts posting fountains of praise on Facebook, it's a sure sign there's trouble behind the scenes.
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To the topic of the alarming number of divorces happening to those who are retiring early. I think many are focusing too hard on the "retiring" part than they are the "early" part. How old are those who are retiring early? What is the average divorce rate among that age group?
I too would like to see a study on this. Is there really an alarming number of divorces happening among those who retire early?
For every MMM or Dr Doom whose early retirement that ended in divorce, there is a Billy & Akaisha or a Jeremy & Winnie whose early retirement didn't. 50 / 50, kinda like the overall probability of divorce.
It seems that there are certain life transition points that occur, in which couples either find a way to work things out or they don't: a major illness, the death of a child, becoming empty-nesters, retirement, etc. Early or otherwise retirement is a transition that can be successfully navigated as a couple or not. Maybe it just seems there are an alarming number of divorces among early those who retire early just because a few of our gurus and influencers happened to get divorced.
There isn't. Divorce is just common, especially in the age range that these people have gotten divorced, so it's not even weird that they're all happening around the same time, because they're all around the same age. It's just standard observational bias.
It would be exceptionally weird if there weren't this many divorces in the community. Staying married indefinitely is not the norm. Especially among couples that aren't religious.
Divorce is just really common and totally normal.
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To the topic of the alarming number of divorces happening to those who are retiring early. I think many are focusing too hard on the "retiring" part than they are the "early" part. How old are those who are retiring early? What is the average divorce rate among that age group?
I too would like to see a study on this. Is there really an alarming number of divorces happening among those who retire early?
For every MMM or Dr Doom whose early retirement that ended in divorce, there is a Billy & Akaisha or a Jeremy & Winnie whose early retirement didn't. 50 / 50, kinda like the overall probability of divorce.
It seems that there are certain life transition points that occur, in which couples either find a way to work things out or they don't: a major illness, the death of a child, becoming empty-nesters, retirement, etc. Early or otherwise retirement is a transition that can be successfully navigated as a couple or not. Maybe it just seems there are an alarming number of divorces among early those who retire early just because a few of our gurus and influencers happened to get divorced.
There isn't. Divorce is just common, especially in the age range that these people have gotten divorced, so it's not even weird that they're all happening around the same time, because they're all around the same age. It's just standard observational bias.
Agreed. What you are saying reinforces the point that I was trying to make, in a more clearly worded manner.
It would be exceptionally weird if there weren't this many divorces in the community. Staying married indefinitely is not the norm. Especially among couples that aren't religious.
Rather than an “are/aren’t religious” correlation, I’d suggest that it’s a strong cultural bias factor. There are countries and cultures that have a strong societal bias against divorce, (religiousness may be key asked in this bias). The USA had this cultural bias, but it began to change in the 60s and 70s. Indian and Chinese cultures still seem to have a bias against divorce even though this may be less for religious-reasons.
That leads to a thought: Because people in the FIRE community seem to be less bound by cultural and societal expectations of adherence to life’s treadmill, would that also make them more likely to divorce?
In absence of sufficient data, I think we are experiencing observational bias.
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There isn't. Divorce is just common, especially in the age range that these people have gotten divorced, so it's not even weird that they're all happening around the same time, because they're all around the same age. It's just standard observational bias.
It would be exceptionally weird if there weren't this many divorces in the community. Staying married indefinitely is not the norm. Especially among couples that aren't religious.
Divorce is just really common and totally normal.
The overall divorce rate in the US is around 45%, which definitely counts as "common," but there are a LOT of caveats. Tie the knot after age 18? Less likely. One spouse smokes? Way more likely. Go to church? Half as likely. No kids? More likely. Income over $50k? Less likely. College grad? Less likely. Disagree on whether to have kids? More likely. Parents still married? Less likely. Second (or third, or...) marriage? More likely.
As a couple who married after age 18, have kids (and agreed on it), have an income over $50k, don't smoke, graduated college, go to church, have no previous marriages, abstained from sex until marriage, have parents who never divorced, and are similar in age, DW and I check a whole lot of "less likely to divorce" boxes.
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There isn't. Divorce is just common, especially in the age range that these people have gotten divorced, so it's not even weird that they're all happening around the same time, because they're all around the same age. It's just standard observational bias.
It would be exceptionally weird if there weren't this many divorces in the community. Staying married indefinitely is not the norm. Especially among couples that aren't religious.
Divorce is just really common and totally normal.
The overall divorce rate in the US is around 45%, which definitely counts as "common," but there are a LOT of caveats. Tie the knot after age 18? Less likely. One spouse smokes? Way more likely. Go to church? Half as likely. No kids? More likely. Income over $50k? Less likely. College grad? Less likely. Disagree on whether to have kids? More likely. Parents still married? Less likely. Second (or third, or...) marriage? More likely.
As a couple who married after age 18, have kids (and agreed on it), have an income over $50k, don't smoke, graduated college, go to church, have no previous marriages, abstained from sex until marriage, have parents who never divorced, and are similar in age, DW and I check a whole lot of "less likely to divorce" boxes.
Okay sure, but none of that means that the divorce rate we see in the FIRE community is exceptional.
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As a couple who married after age 18, have kids (and agreed on it), have an income over $50k, don't smoke, graduated college, go to church, have no previous marriages, abstained from sex until marriage, have parents who never divorced, and are similar in age, DW and I check a whole lot of "less likely to divorce" boxes.
Sure thing, but I think the average FIRE couple likely checks somewhat fewer of the boxes than you and wife. They probably had incomes over $50k/year before they retired and attended college, but do you think the FIRE community as a whole is more likely, less likely, or equally likely as the population as whole to attend church, be on their first marriage, have abstained from premarital sex, or come from houses where their parents never divorced?
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There isn't. Divorce is just common, especially in the age range that these people have gotten divorced, so it's not even weird that they're all happening around the same time, because they're all around the same age. It's just standard observational bias.
It would be exceptionally weird if there weren't this many divorces in the community. Staying married indefinitely is not the norm. Especially among couples that aren't religious.
Divorce is just really common and totally normal.
The overall divorce rate in the US is around 45%, which definitely counts as "common," but there are a LOT of caveats. Tie the knot after age 18? Less likely. One spouse smokes? Way more likely. Go to church? Half as likely. No kids? More likely. Income over $50k? Less likely. College grad? Less likely. Disagree on whether to have kids? More likely. Parents still married? Less likely. Second (or third, or...) marriage? More likely.
As a couple who married after age 18, have kids (and agreed on it), have an income over $50k, don't smoke, graduated college, go to church, have no previous marriages, abstained from sex until marriage, have parents who never divorced, and are similar in age, DW and I check a whole lot of "less likely to divorce" boxes.
We ticked all those boxes except church, and yet here I am, part of the grey divorced after empty nest and just pre retirement group. Every so often there have been enough changes in life that people sit back and evaluate things and make adjustments. Sometimes that adjustment is retirement or a push for earlier retirement. Sometimes it is a realization that never living with that person again sounds like a huge relief.
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Sure thing, but I think the average FIRE couple likely checks somewhat fewer of the boxes than you and wife. They probably had incomes over $50k/year before they retired and attended college, but do you think the FIRE community as a whole is more likely, less likely, or equally likely as the population as whole to attend church, be on their first marriage, have abstained from premarital sex, or come from houses where their parents never divorced?
The only one on that list that sounds more likely for a FIRE couple than the general population is first marriage (at least for those retiring before 40).
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Sure thing, but I think the average FIRE couple likely checks somewhat fewer of the boxes than you and wife. They probably had incomes over $50k/year before they retired and attended college, but do you think the FIRE community as a whole is more likely, less likely, or equally likely as the population as whole to attend church, be on their first marriage, have abstained from premarital sex, or come from houses where their parents never divorced?
The only one on that list that sounds more likely for a FIRE couple than the general population is first marriage (at least for those retiring before 40).
I'm under 40 and married to a man who was divorced.
Also, very few in this community actually retire that young.
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As a couple who married after age 18, have kids (and agreed on it), have an income over $50k, don't smoke, graduated college, go to church, have no previous marriages, abstained from sex until marriage, have parents who never divorced, and are similar in age, DW and I check a whole lot of "less likely to divorce" boxes.
Sure thing, but I think the average FIRE couple likely checks somewhat fewer of the boxes than you and wife. They probably had incomes over $50k/year before they retired and attended college, but do you think the FIRE community as a whole is more likely, less likely, or equally likely as the population as whole to attend church, be on their first marriage, have abstained from premarital sex, or come from houses where their parents never divorced?
That's a great question! Certainly the college education, later marriage, and higher income boxes are more often than not ticked. The more cultural/social boxes (religion, abstinence, presence of kids, parents' marital status)? I dunno. This forum skews left at about a 2:1 ratio, which I imagine would have a negative correlation to those factors (well, not the parents).
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Someone should do a poll! Who divorced because of FIRE? Who stayed together because of FIRE? Who would/would not have divorced/split regardless of FIRE? Personally I doubt there are enough people here or in the "real" life of work forever and spend to be meaningful.
Money issues are a common cause of divorce. Of course FIRE is not a standard money issue.
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Someone should do a poll! Who divorced because of FIRE? Who stayed together because of FIRE? Who would/would not have divorced/split regardless of FIRE? Personally I doubt there are enough people here or in the "real" life of work forever and spend to be meaningful.
Money issues are a common cause of divorce. Of course FIRE is not a standard money issue.
That's true. I wonder if having too much money (being FI) a reason some people divorce? I imagine it could be as it may be that one spouse want to spend more or on different things then the other. I joke that I divorced because of FIRE - and there is a tiny bit of truth to that - but not because of money differences. Lots of FIRE issues can cause discord in a relationship even if a couple is fully aligned on finances and spending.
It's the same way that having children can both make divorce more likely for some couples and less likely for others.
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Someone should do a poll! Who divorced because of FIRE? Who stayed together because of FIRE? Who would/would not have divorced/split regardless of FIRE? Personally I doubt there are enough people here or in the "real" life of work forever and spend to be meaningful.
Money issues are a common cause of divorce. Of course FIRE is not a standard money issue.
That's true. I wonder if having too much money (being FI) a reason some people divorce? I imagine it could be as it may be that one spouse want to spend more or on different things then the other. I joke that I divorced because of FIRE - and there is a tiny bit of truth to that - but not because of money differences. Lots of FIRE issues can cause discord in a relationship even if a couple is fully aligned on finances and spending.
It's the same way that having children can both make divorce more likely for some couples and less likely for others.
True. You never know the reality of a situation until you experience it. I know a divorced forum member here who FIREd suffered from post partum depression (unexpectly). Another who's spouse seem aligned with them retiring but ended up (also unexpectedly) finding the life style too difficult. So on. What looks good at the planning stages doesn't always feel as great as people often think it does. That pretty much goes for everything in life. That's why I give Dr. Dooms ex-DH a pass (affair aside) as she may have really had no idea how deeply their retiring early might effect her and them. And how much social pressure from outside an unconventional life (RE) can effect them.
She also told him she didn't want to end up with a cripple when he was diagnosed.
Doom specifically mentioned untreated mental health issues, which would be a HUGE issue for any marriage.
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Someone should do a poll! Who divorced because of FIRE? Who stayed together because of FIRE? Who would/would not have divorced/split regardless of FIRE? Personally I doubt there are enough people here or in the "real" life of work forever and spend to be meaningful.
Money issues are a common cause of divorce. Of course FIRE is not a standard money issue.
That's true. I wonder if having too much money (being FI) a reason some people divorce? I imagine it could be as it may be that one spouse want to spend more or on different things then the other. I joke that I divorced because of FIRE - and there is a tiny bit of truth to that - but not because of money differences. Lots of FIRE issues can cause discord in a relationship even if a couple is fully aligned on finances and spending.
It's the same way that having children can both make divorce more likely for some couples and less likely for others.
True. You never know the reality of a situation until you experience it. I know a divorced forum member here who FIREd suffered from post partum depression (unexpectly). Another who's spouse seem aligned with them retiring but ended up (also unexpectedly) finding the life style too difficult. So on. What looks good at the planning stages doesn't always feel as great as people often think it does. That pretty much goes for everything in life. That's why I give Dr. Dooms ex-DH a pass (affair aside) as she may have really had no idea how deeply their retiring early might effect her and them. And how much social pressure from outside an unconventional life (RE) can effect them.
She also told him she didn't want to end up with a cripple when he was diagnosed.
Doom specifically mentioned untreated mental health issues, which would be a HUGE issue for any marriage.
And I think she had an affair? If your spouse has mental health issues that you cannot live with, you divorce first. Then you can date other people.
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Someone should do a poll! Who divorced because of FIRE? Who stayed together because of FIRE? Who would/would not have divorced/split regardless of FIRE? Personally I doubt there are enough people here or in the "real" life of work forever and spend to be meaningful.
Money issues are a common cause of divorce. Of course FIRE is not a standard money issue.
That's true. I wonder if having too much money (being FI) a reason some people divorce? I imagine it could be as it may be that one spouse want to spend more or on different things then the other. I joke that I divorced because of FIRE - and there is a tiny bit of truth to that - but not because of money differences. Lots of FIRE issues can cause discord in a relationship even if a couple is fully aligned on finances and spending.
It's the same way that having children can both make divorce more likely for some couples and less likely for others.
True. You never know the reality of a situation until you experience it. I know a divorced forum member here who FIREd suffered from post partum depression (unexpectly). Another who's spouse seem aligned with them retiring but ended up (also unexpectedly) finding the life style too difficult. So on. What looks good at the planning stages doesn't always feel as great as people often think it does. That pretty much goes for everything in life. That's why I give Dr. Dooms ex-DH a pass (affair aside) as she may have really had no idea how deeply their retiring early might effect her and them. And how much social pressure from outside an unconventional life (RE) can effect them.
She also told him she didn't want to end up with a cripple when he was diagnosed.
Doom specifically mentioned untreated mental health issues, which would be a HUGE issue for any marriage.
And I think she had an affair? If your spouse has mental health issues that you cannot live with, you divorce first. Then you can date other people.
I may be wrong, but I thought *she* had untreated mental health issues, which I would think would be the biggest factor in her behaviour.
His diagnosis that I mentioned was Ehlers Danlos, which is a complex genetic disease that affects the integrity of the body.
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Someone should do a poll! Who divorced because of FIRE? Who stayed together because of FIRE? Who would/would not have divorced/split regardless of FIRE? Personally I doubt there are enough people here or in the "real" life of work forever and spend to be meaningful.
Money issues are a common cause of divorce. Of course FIRE is not a standard money issue.
That's true. I wonder if having too much money (being FI) a reason some people divorce? I imagine it could be as it may be that one spouse want to spend more or on different things then the other. I joke that I divorced because of FIRE - and there is a tiny bit of truth to that - but not because of money differences. Lots of FIRE issues can cause discord in a relationship even if a couple is fully aligned on finances and spending.
It's the same way that having children can both make divorce more likely for some couples and less likely for others.
True. You never know the reality of a situation until you experience it. I know a divorced forum member here who FIREd suffered from post partum depression (unexpectly). Another who's spouse seem aligned with them retiring but ended up (also unexpectedly) finding the life style too difficult. So on. What looks good at the planning stages doesn't always feel as great as people often think it does. That pretty much goes for everything in life. That's why I give Dr. Dooms ex-DH a pass (affair aside) as she may have really had no idea how deeply their retiring early might effect her and them. And how much social pressure from outside an unconventional life (RE) can effect them.
She also told him she didn't want to end up with a cripple when he was diagnosed.
Doom specifically mentioned untreated mental health issues, which would be a HUGE issue for any marriage.
And I think she had an affair? If your spouse has mental health issues that you cannot live with, you divorce first. Then you can date other people.
I may be wrong, but I thought *she* had untreated mental health issues, which I would think would be the biggest factor in her behaviour.
His diagnosis that I mentioned was Ehlers Danlos, which is a complex genetic disease that affects the integrity of the body.
I remember the ED, but I thought it was him that had the mental health issues? I may have read it wrong.
I don't think mental health issues make someone cheat. I think blaming cheating on "mental health issues" is like blaming someone's boundary-ignoring behaviour on being on the autism spectrum. Both are excuses.
I could see divorcing someone for totally different reasons and being glad you weren't going to be responsible for looking after that person's health issues. Which is not ex-Mrs.Doom.
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It is strongly implied that *she* had mental health issues that Dr Doom asked her to seek treatment for and she refused, contrasted against Dr Doom's multiple bouts of therapy that he has posted about over the years. Obviously that may not be the case, but that is the narrative presented on the blog.
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I remember the ED, but I thought it was him that had the mental health issues? I may have read it wrong.
I don't think mental health issues make someone cheat. I think blaming cheating on "mental health issues" is like blaming someone's boundary-ignoring behaviour on being on the autism spectrum. Both are excuses.
I could see divorcing someone for totally different reasons and being glad you weren't going to be responsible for looking after that person's health issues. Which is not ex-Mrs.Doom.
Not saying that untreated mental health issues cause cheating, but that they likely influence behaviour more than, say, retiring early.