Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!

[Metalcat]

I personally feel there is little point in picking over someone's ended marriage to analyze causes.

I'll disagree. If we can see parts of someone else's life that are similar to ours, then we can hopefully learn from their failures (not sure if that's the best word, but I couldn't think of a better one) and reduce our chances of having a similar fate.

From the way sui generis interpreted it, I can see parallels to my own marriage.

What a roller coaster!  The thing that struck me the most was the surprise that he has the same syndrome Tanja Hester/Our Next Life does, and these two FIRE people are the sum total of the two times I've heard of it.  Pretty wild, and very sad, coincidence.  Having read a few things from TH about expected life spans and QOL, I was extra sad for both of them.

I recognize so much in what he has written. My life, including the financial aspect, would change a lot if my relationship ended as well (I already know exactly how and what I would do, but the point is it is life changing for sure).  Wondering about purpose and isolation.  On the other hand, I've always felt strongly that connections and roots can come from outside a workplace as much as in, and I wonder if his ex would have been more satisfied if she had put down some more roots in new activities and communities (not geographic, but hobby/cultural/volunteer) where she would have had more diverse "Joneses" to keep up with and compare herself to.  By the time they were discussing this and he was suggesting that, it seemed far too late. I do think it's has been critical for me to have done that (even though sometimes I lament I've gone too far and want to pull up some of my roots and be more isolated!) and I even worry if I moved to a new city, state or country, having to do that all over again could be a daunting task.  It's so critical, but it isn't easy.  I do believe we all always need to be building our own communities and relationships.  Staying in the same job forever can fool you about this because the community is provided for you and you may not have to work as hard at it.  Retiring early has actually kept me on my toes about this and I'm hyperaware of cultivating paths for my future and thinking about how things might change out from under me in the next 3-4 decades.  I definitely don't think things will be static nor do they feel that way AT ALL, as his ex seems to have experienced. 

And the projects and networks I've built in my RE can conveniently be framed into a story of "moving" and successes and "going somewhere" for the crowd that just doesn't get early retirement.  I don't love doing it, it feels a bit icky, but it's nice to be able to "speak that language" if I need to and remind myself that it's all about framing and perception for everyone.  There's a lot of comparing their own insides to everyone else's outsides in that blog post.  It's natural with humans, but absolutely devastating.

My wife doesn't have hobbies or friends outside of work. I've attempted to encourage her to find those things, but she just hasn't. If we both just stopped working, I'd have plenty to keep myself occupied, but she wouldn't.

Dr. Doom's post and our subsequent "post-mortem" here have given me a lot to think about and plan for.

Oh, Doom's post is useful. I don't think the nitpicking and assumptions here are useful.

[never give up]

Yes I’m not sure the word “failure” belongs anywhere in this thread. Sure, a marriage can fail but that happens all the time anyway regardless of whether someone has achieved FIRE, is working towards FIRE or doesn’t even know FIRE exists. I appreciate differences in desired and perceived lifestyle were obviously a major problem in this case.

It always sounded to me (having previously read the entire blog) that Dr Doom had some really tough working environments. He achieved FIRE, experienced some really happy years post FIRE, and because of having such a large stash behind him, he’s been able to easily adapt his plans to accommodate a different level of expenses, a new relationship and health issues. That sounds extremely successful to me! Very well done.

It reinforces to me:

1. How difficult it is to estimate future expenses. As our FIRE numbers, investment strategies, and potential timelines all hang off of this it really is a key area to attempt to understand. In addition, as the years pass, inflation rates may differ between expense categories and unknown expenses that don’t exist, are created, go on to become wants, and finally assimilate into needs e.g. mobile phones. These all throw further complications into this process. It’s not an exact science.

2. The power of part time work. I appreciate not everyone has the opportunity, but part time work once 20-25X expenses have been achieved (and before too but I’m cautious) really helps in so many ways. It provides daily/weekly structure, it eases the problem of expense levels changing over the years, it minimises sequence of returns risk, and it won’t necessarily make someone feel quite as different to their friends if that’s important to them. It facilitates the prioritisation of physical and mental health earlier and allows someone to develop wider interests outside of being dominated by one particular job. The stash also means someone can quit that job without worry if the environment changes to be unpleasant.

I’d certainly be interested in the decision around why Dr. Doom chose his old career and at full time. Presumably that’s so he can hit his new FI number at the earliest opportunity which completely makes sense. It would be interesting if he considered part time or a different field or both though.

[simonsez]

Damn, that was hard to read for myriad reasons but he is such a good writer.  Humans are complex and need varying levels of <insert any relevant noun: structure, compassion, communication, etc.> which changes over time.  Glad he is willing to shed some light on some of the more underscored parts of humanity.

While following along gave me micro-bouts of anxiety with regard to certain passages, I'd view it as a huge win not only for the FIRE community but for any adult with agency (or trying to have agency) over the direction of their life.  As mentioned by others, divorce and health are two potential sources of derailment to financial and life's plans.  Nice to see someone come out on the other side not only surviving but thriving!

[Runrunrun]

Wow, that was such a thought-provoking post. I'm so glad he updated.

As far as the relationship, a phenomenon I have experienced is not even realizing I am censoring myself, communication wise until I was with someone who is a better fit. With a past partner, I thought had good communication but it turns out I was subconsciously censoring a lot of my true thoughts. Now, it freely flows with my current partner. I had no awareness I was doing it until I was out of it and experiencing something else.

I'd say it's probably the shared values thing for sure, it took me a while to find someone with similar core values and then I finally felt the difference. Don't even know if that makes sense but I got that vibe from his post as well.

[jfer_rose]

I'm not sure I ever read this blog before and I feel very bad for my past self as I think I really missed out. (I read FIRE blogs obsessively extensively in the years this blog appears to have been active.)

I found reading this post very illuminating and I think I will be doing a lot of journaling and thinking on the topics raised. Both my significant other and myself achieved FIRE independently, and we have both started small businesses since we quit our careers. I hope our businesses will be helpful to us in finding meaning/having purpose, and with our ability to keep relating to our social circles. And of course the extra income won't hurt in the event of unexpected medical expenses.

[bmjohnson35]

OP: Thanks for posting......otherwise I would have missed it.

I appreciate Dr Doom's straight-forward and entertaining communication style. It's unfortunate how his long-term relationship didn't work out, but it sounds like he worked through the various challenges and has come out as good or better than before.   

[partgypsy]

Thanks for posting. Oftentimes the stories where things don't go as planned are as informative or more informative than the smooth sailing stories.

[Otter+Badger]

I was so excited when I got the email notification yesterday.  I always loved his blog.  I was not expecting that rollar coaster of emotions.  But, I have to admit, it was also reassuring to hear from someone I trusted to share his experience.  The biggest take away for me was that with life you never 'arrive' at any spot for long.  Life is unpredictable and how well you cope and adjust to those changes is what defines success.  Resiliency is the ultimate life skill. 

I appreciated that Dr. Doom allowed us to see someone acknowledge and embrace hard events, both those within and beyond their control.  My two biggest fears with deciding to pull the trigger on FIRE was what would happen if my cancer came back or if something happened to my partner.  What I am taking away from this, is not that you have to hope for no major health issues or changed relationships to succeed, you just have to be willing to acknowldge the impact of those and adjust.  Be dilligent, but also nimble. 

[Dicey]

I think there is some unnecessary judgment of the wife in this thread - noting that we have not heard her side of the story. It may have been that she is one of those people for whom work or the appearance of work gives much meaning (I am definitely not one of them but I know plenty of smart, genuine people who just love working). Or it may have been that she wasn't happy with their level of lifestyle which I take it was relatively modest. Someone mentioned "going out for dinner-movie-shopping" and while that is something I might only do 3-4 times a year, if my budget fell below the level where I could do it on a whim, I'd be dissatisfied too. If my budget fell below the level where I couldn't make a significant purchase on a whim to please myself, I'd be dissatisfied. Let me repeat that this is not a moral failing.

Didn't he say they kept separate finances? Presumably she was free to spend hers as she wished. To go the other way, maybe his diagnosis was part of her decision to exit. It happens.

[windytrail]

Thanks, that was a great read. It's helped to validate the choice of my partner and I to keep our finances separate, which we recently finalized in a prenuptial agreement. She has not shown the same amount of interest in being FIRE'd early in life (still 4+ years out for me), and I'm completely OK with that. At the same time, we are both frugal people who save more than we spend, and who are not interested in idealized deception via Facebook/Instagram or keeping up with the Jones's, so it seems we are more compatible than the author and his first marriage. I want her to find a career that she loves and am prepared to travel wherever to make that happen. But if things do not work out between us, then at least we will not be so entangled as to cause a financial crisis at divorce.

[SpreadsheetMan]

Awesome post from Dr Doom. It’s great to have a real-life update from the other side of FIRE.

Just proves that when we think we have a plan and are in control it’s only an illusion.

[Metalcat]

Awesome post from Dr Doom. It’s great to have a real-life update from the other side of FIRE.

Just proves that when we think we have a plan and are in control it’s only an illusion.

Plans don't predict the future, they only guide decisions in the present.

[chevy1956]

A good read, and a sobering reminder that many more a financial plan will be wrecked by a change in health and/or circumstances than ever will be by sequence of return risk.

I'd also add that if you are in a good position it's easier to recover. That story to me definitely isn't a failure. To me that was how life can go. All you can do is adapt to whatever situation occurs in the future.

[chevy1956]

Awesome post from Dr Doom. It’s great to have a real-life update from the other side of FIRE.

Just proves that when we think we have a plan and are in control it’s only an illusion.

Plans don't predict the future, they only guide decisions in the present.

It also reinforces how all the conversations on a financial safety level miss the point. You make your best decision at the time and enjoy the ride as much as possible.

[Metalcat]

Awesome post from Dr Doom. It’s great to have a real-life update from the other side of FIRE.

Just proves that when we think we have a plan and are in control it’s only an illusion.

Plans don't predict the future, they only guide decisions in the present.

It also reinforces how all the conversations on a financial safety level miss the point. You make your best decision at the time and enjoy the ride as much as possible.

Yes, I constantly harp on about this in WR threads. Personal real life risks are so much more likely and profound than market risks that might make a 4% WR "fail". Life happens. As nereo quotes me in his signature, you can't Boglehead your way to total security. Life can and will happen. That's what life is, the shit that happens and how you respond to it.

It's not like you reach an arbitrary savings goal and then suddenly life is safe, forever and ever, amen.

Post FIRE life is just different, with different options. That's all. It's still risk-laden normal old life though.

[2sk22]

Post FIRE life is just different, with different options. That's all. It's still risk-laden normal old life though.

I call it the law of conservation of anxiety - when one anxiety vanishes it is replaced with a different but equally valid anxiety :-)

[Gilroyston]

I think everyone is missing the true winner and happy ending from this story, the humble librarian!

No savings, low earning potential, and she has landed the mighty Dr. Doom!

Set for a sweet life of FI, being taken around the world and provided for, I think there should be a special section of this forum created not just for those seeking fire, but also those seeking those who are already fire, the work already done!

[Trifle]

A good read, and a sobering reminder that many more a financial plan will be wrecked by a change in health and/or circumstances than ever will be by sequence of return risk.

I'd also add that if you are in a good position it's easier to recover. That story to me definitely isn't a failure. To me that was how life can go. All you can do is adapt to whatever situation occurs in the future.

This ^.  And +1 to everything Malcat said.  To me this story isn't a failure at all.  Just an accounting of some stuff life threw at him and how he responded.  To me it sounds like he's dealing with it well.  His new relationship sounds great -- a big win for him. 

His health problems are not good news, but -- there are a lot worse things to be diagnosed with.  I have a good friend with Ehlers-Danlos, and two of her three kids have it too.  It's highly variable so it's difficult to generalize, but for them (hyperelasticity version of ED) it's nowhere near a death sentence.  It's a chronic thing that they live with.  Sounds like Doom has educated himself, is taking care of it, and is getting on with his life.  That's a win. 

[Playing with Fire UK]

Set for a sweet life of FI, being taken around the world and provided for, I think there should be a special section of this forum created not just for those seeking fire, but also those seeking those who are already fire, the work already done!

Hello there and welcome. You might like this board.

[Playing with Fire UK]

Yes I’m not sure the word “failure” belongs anywhere in this thread. Sure, a marriage can fail but that happens all the time anyway regardless of whether someone has achieved FIRE, is working towards FIRE or doesn’t even know FIRE exists. I appreciate differences in desired and perceived lifestyle were obviously a major problem in this case.

It always sounded to me (having previously read the entire blog) that Dr Doom had some really tough working environments. He achieved FIRE, experienced some really happy years post FIRE, and because of having such a large stash behind him, he’s been able to easily adapt his plans to accommodate a different level of expenses, a new relationship and health issues. That sounds extremely successful to me! Very well done.

Totally agree that this isn't a failure of FIRE.

Even when a relationship ends, that isn't necessarily a failure. Sticking around in a relationship that no longer works for everyone isn't good. Relationships can be fantastic at a certain stage in life and then no longer fit as people change. A relationship that has no pleasant moments is a failure: a relationship that has years of delight and happiness but then stops working could be considered a qualified success.

[Metalcat]

Post FIRE life is just different, with different options. That's all. It's still risk-laden normal old life though.

I call it the law of conservation of anxiety - when one anxiety vanishes it is replaced with a different but equally valid anxiety :-)

Well sure, if you have anxiety problems.

On the flip side, if you don't, it means that the challenges you've learned to handle all along will help equip you to handle whatever challenges come in the future.

[LightTripper]

What a roller coaster!  The thing that struck me the most was the surprise that he has the same syndrome Tanja Hester/Our Next Life does, and these two FIRE people are the sum total of the two times I've heard of it.  Pretty wild, and very sad, coincidence.  Having read a few things from TH about expected life spans and QOL, I was extra sad for both of them.

It's a funny one.  ED is actually very common among autistic people.*  And I've always thought there are probably a lot of autistic people in the FIRE community because (a) it makes you arguably less focused on being the same as other people, because you just can't - so keeping up with the Joneses is probably less of an impulse** and (b) the social and sensory demands of keeping a job and the level of masking required to do it successfully over a long period are very draining.

So basically the push away from work is stronger, and the opposing push away from being seen as a bit of a freak is arguably also a bit weaker.

Anyway, I'm obviously not saying that Doom or Tanja are autistic.***  But on the other hand there do seem to be some links between ED/hEDS and what could be termed certain "personality types" that might be more attracted to and suited to FIRE.


*https://www.autism.org/researchers-have-identified-a-relationship-between-ehlers-danlos-syndrome-and-autism/
** I've qualified this because I did once talk to an autistic person (coincidentally who also has hEDS) who said this wasn't true for her: because she was always trying to fit in all the ways that she could to be accepted, so she had suffered from trying to "keep up with the Joneses" financially when she was younger).  But on average I think autistic people are very used to being viewed as weird and different, so maybe it makes it a bit easier to accept being different financially too. 
*** Editing to add: I'm also not saying that they're not.  As somebody who realised late I am probably autistic myself I know from painful experience it can be very difficult to tell from the outside!

[Metalcat]

What a roller coaster!  The thing that struck me the most was the surprise that he has the same syndrome Tanja Hester/Our Next Life does, and these two FIRE people are the sum total of the two times I've heard of it.  Pretty wild, and very sad, coincidence.  Having read a few things from TH about expected life spans and QOL, I was extra sad for both of them.

It's a funny one.  ED is actually very common among autistic people.*  And I've always thought there are probably a lot of autistic people in the FIRE community because (a) it makes you arguably less focused on being the same as other people, because you just can't - so keeping up with the Joneses is probably less of an impulse** and (b) the social and sensory demands of keeping a job and the level of masking required to do it successfully over a long period are very draining.

So basically the push away from work is stronger, and the opposing push away from being seen as a bit of a freak is arguably also a bit weaker.

Anyway, I'm obviously not saying that Doom or Tanja are autistic.  But on the other hand there do seem to be some links between ED/hEDS and what could be termed certain "personality types" that might be more attracted to and suited to FIRE.


*https://www.autism.org/researchers-have-identified-a-relationship-between-ehlers-danlos-syndrome-and-autism/
** I've qualified this because I did once talk to an autistic person (coincidentally who also has hEDS) who said this wasn't true for her: because she was always trying to fit in all the ways that she could to be accepted, so she had suffered from trying to "keep up with the Joneses" financially when she was younger).  But on average I think autistic people are very used to being viewed as weird and different, so maybe it makes it a bit easier to accept being different financially too.

Personally, I think that if there's any correlation between EDS and FIRE, it's that people are born with EDS and are aware their entire lives that there's something wrong with their bodies, so they might intuitively be less inclined to depend on a career that lasts several decades, especially as they start getting older and build up damage.

At least that's my case. I always doubted if I would be able to work full time until my 60s, so I specifically chose a career that would make part time work feasible, and focused on financial goals from day one so that I would be as secure as possible if my health failed. Which it did at 37,  less than 10 years into my career.

[zolotiyeruki]

Wow, that article was certainly thought-provoking, as is this thread.  DW and I had a good discussion about it last night.  A few key takeaways for me:

• A life full of preferred leisure activities, without goals, work, accomplishments, etc, can feel unfulfilling or stagnant. (and definitely WILL for me)
• When DW and I retire, DW is definitely going to need some time and resources to reestablish her own identity.  At that point, she will have been a SAHM for 28 years.
• While DW will need some time to reconstitute herself, I have so many hobbies and interests and "things I want to accomplish" that I doubt I'll ever feel bored or stagnant.
• If I manage to FIRE before all the kids have grown, it gets tricky, because even though I could retire, we can't retire.  So we will definitely need to make a plan for that.
• I need to do a better job of understanding and fulfilling DW's needs, and making sure our relationship is strong without extrinsic forces (e.g. as Malcat said, children and cost of divorce).

[thesis]

That was a powerful read, and I'm really thankful for it. It's a reminder to me, as someone who is single, to really learn about my own expectations. If I do get married, it will be important to communicate those expectations.

Sad to see a marriage of 20 years fall apart like that, but I'm glad Doom is moving forward. Some people just can't handle that void. You really need self awareness to understand your expectations from FIRE.

There is still a lot of pressure placed on men to be breadwinners or to have some sort of social status. Although his ex-wife's motives are unclear, I'm definitely curious about how it seems she was more bothered about him not working than her not working. Some people take those old gender roles to heart, and may not realize it? Not everybody is like that of course, but it puts me on edge a little. Note to self: find someone who does not expect me to have a social ranking derived from career :D . I suspect I will probably "retire" to low-paid occupations that are deeply interesting to me.

[kite]

Oh, Doom's post is useful. I don't think the nitpicking and assumptions here are useful.

Yep. this.  I could *like* this a million times.
I felt similarly when people were trying to dissect MMM's relationship.

[zolotiyeruki]

There is still a lot of pressure placed on men to be breadwinners or to have some sort of social status. Although his ex-wife's motives are unclear, I'm definitely curious about how it seems she was more bothered about him not working than her not working. Some people take those old gender roles to heart, and may not realize it?

To me, it sounds like it was more an issue of potentially awkward social interactions, like "Hi Mrs.Doom, how is work? <conversation continues> And what is Dr. Doom up to?  Oh, he's just lazing about the house while you're bringing home the bacon?"  Even if the Doom family are comfortable with their standard of living, having a lifestyle (retired, childless, young, and IMO aimless) that differs so dramatically from the norm (jobs, kids, purpose in life) is going to make socializing more difficult.

[mathlete]

Echoing others. Good read. Very sobering.

[Metalcat]

Oh, Doom's post is useful. I don't think the nitpicking and assumptions here are useful.

Yep. this.  I could *like* this a million times.
I felt similarly when people were trying to dissect MMM's relationship.

Exactly. People picked apart the billion ways FIRE could have contributed to their divorce because that's the main facet of his life that we're exposed to. Marriages end for endless reasons, and the broad strokes of people's life choices are a very small part of the puzzle. One couple might thrive in FIRE, another might crumble, and yet another might crumble as well, but for wildly different reasons.

Nobody divorces because of life circumstances, they divorce because of how they collectively handle those life circumstances as a team.

Doom has volunteered a lot of his personal perspective on the conflicts and communication issues that occurred while his marriage broke down, none of that means we understand what caused their divorce. We have a small glimpse of the *symptoms* of their marital discord. That's it.

When my ex fiance left me he cited numerous "reasons" why I wasn't right for him, numerous things he felt he wanted from his ideal partner that I just wasn't delivering. He then immediately settled down with a woman he cheated on me with, who was almost exactly like me on paper, who didn't offer anything on his list of wants where I was "lacking". However, I'm extremely assertive and she's extremely demure, and he simply didn't want an assertive partner. He's been with her for nearly 15 years and has two adorable children. Dude had no idea what he wanted until he found it.

He didn't leave me for any of the reasons that he believed he did, and he wasn't looking for anything that he believed he wanted, he just wasn't happy with me and over time found excuses to find me wanting. His reasons weren't rational, they were rationalizations.

Who knows what's actually behind ex-Mrs. Doom's marital dissatisfaction, and who knows if any of her complaints or "reasons" actually have anything to do with her actual unmet needs. All we know is that she had unmet needs, and she manifested a way to leave a marriage that wasn't meeting them.

Doom could possibly have no clue what her honest motivations were, even she might have not really known at the time. I know for me that I've sometimes had to leave relationships before I could fully understand what actually wasn't working for me. I've seen this from countless people who gained enormous insight about their own relationships *after* they ended.

Regardless, that's why I think post-morteming strangers' marriages is useless, and usually misleading, because the reasons people give for relationship dissatisfaction are typically only a very, very small part of the real problem.

It's a popular running joke in my family that my ex left me because I don't play a musical instrument. Seriously, that was one of the major reasons he cited for us not being right for each other. It still elicits roaring laughter at family dinners.

[Metalcat]

There is still a lot of pressure placed on men to be breadwinners or to have some sort of social status. Although his ex-wife's motives are unclear, I'm definitely curious about how it seems she was more bothered about him not working than her not working. Some people take those old gender roles to heart, and may not realize it?

To me, it sounds like it was more an issue of potentially awkward social interactions, like "Hi Mrs.Doom, how is work? <conversation continues> And what is Dr. Doom up to?  Oh, he's just lazing about the house while you're bringing home the bacon?"  Even if the Doom family are comfortable with their standard of living, having a lifestyle (retired, childless, young, and IMO aimless) that differs so dramatically from the norm (jobs, kids, purpose in life) is going to make socializing more difficult.

If you phrased it that way, sure, but there's no reason why it would have to be awkward.

Person: "Hi Mrs. Doom, how is work?"
Mrs Doom: "Work is great! I retired for a bit, but found I missed it"
Person: "What's Mr. Doom up to?"
Mrs Doom: "He did not miss work, so he's still up to his usual projects [Optional additional info] It's actually great that he retired so young because he was diagnosed with a rare genetic disorder, so it's been wonderful that he doesn't have to worry about work, and can focus on his health"
Person: "Oh, is he okay?"
Mrs Doom: "Oh yeah, it's not a progressive illness, so as long as he focuses on his health and exercise, he'll probably stay healthier than everyone else. As I said, it really worked out that he was able to retire. Besides, he's so happy now, it's a lot of fun to come home to after work"

See? Not awkward if the person talking doesn't believe it's awkward.

[vand]

A good read, and a sobering reminder that many more a financial plan will be wrecked by a change in health and/or circumstances than ever will be by sequence of return risk.

I'd also add that if you are in a good position it's easier to recover. That story to me definitely isn't a failure. To me that was how life can go. All you can do is adapt to whatever situation occurs in the future.

That is absolutely a given. Having strong finances is an advantage no matter what life throws at you.

He absolutely did not fail financially - as he said, his net worth has actually increased in real terms! that is financial success, not failure.

But finances are only one aspect of a life well lived, and he was starting to fall short in other aspects.

The old saying.. money can bring you comfort and a high standard of living, but it can't buy you happiness or give meaning to your life.

[dougules]

There is still a lot of pressure placed on men to be breadwinners or to have some sort of social status. Although his ex-wife's motives are unclear, I'm definitely curious about how it seems she was more bothered about him not working than her not working. Some people take those old gender roles to heart, and may not realize it?

To me, it sounds like it was more an issue of potentially awkward social interactions, like "Hi Mrs.Doom, how is work? <conversation continues> And what is Dr. Doom up to?  Oh, he's just lazing about the house while you're bringing home the bacon?"  Even if the Doom family are comfortable with their standard of living, having a lifestyle (retired, childless, young, and IMO aimless) that differs so dramatically from the norm (jobs, kids, purpose in life) is going to make socializing more difficult.

If you phrased it that way, sure, but there's no reason why it would have to be awkward.

Person: "Hi Mrs. Doom, how is work?"
Mrs Doom: "Work is great! I retired for a bit, but found I missed it"
Person: "What's Mr. Doom up to?"
Mrs Doom: "He did not miss work, so he's still up to his usual projects [Optional additional info] It's actually great that he retired so young because he was diagnosed with a rare genetic disorder, so it's been wonderful that he doesn't have to worry about work, and can focus on his health"
Person: "Oh, is he okay?"
Mrs Doom: "Oh yeah, it's not a progressive illness, so as long as he focuses on his health and exercise, he'll probably stay healthier than everyone else. As I said, it really worked out that he was able to retire. Besides, he's so happy now, it's a lot of fun to come home to after work"

See? Not awkward if the person talking doesn't believe it's awkward.

And that's the kind of thing a good therapist could have helped her with.  If he couldn't get her to talk to him or get professional help, my guess is that there probably wasn't anything he could have done differently to save things despite his human tendency toward self-blame. 

One takeaway may be how much damage is done by the stigma around mental health care. 

[Metalcat]

There is still a lot of pressure placed on men to be breadwinners or to have some sort of social status. Although his ex-wife's motives are unclear, I'm definitely curious about how it seems she was more bothered about him not working than her not working. Some people take those old gender roles to heart, and may not realize it?

To me, it sounds like it was more an issue of potentially awkward social interactions, like "Hi Mrs.Doom, how is work? <conversation continues> And what is Dr. Doom up to?  Oh, he's just lazing about the house while you're bringing home the bacon?"  Even if the Doom family are comfortable with their standard of living, having a lifestyle (retired, childless, young, and IMO aimless) that differs so dramatically from the norm (jobs, kids, purpose in life) is going to make socializing more difficult.

If you phrased it that way, sure, but there's no reason why it would have to be awkward.

Person: "Hi Mrs. Doom, how is work?"
Mrs Doom: "Work is great! I retired for a bit, but found I missed it"
Person: "What's Mr. Doom up to?"
Mrs Doom: "He did not miss work, so he's still up to his usual projects [Optional additional info] It's actually great that he retired so young because he was diagnosed with a rare genetic disorder, so it's been wonderful that he doesn't have to worry about work, and can focus on his health"
Person: "Oh, is he okay?"
Mrs Doom: "Oh yeah, it's not a progressive illness, so as long as he focuses on his health and exercise, he'll probably stay healthier than everyone else. As I said, it really worked out that he was able to retire. Besides, he's so happy now, it's a lot of fun to come home to after work"

See? Not awkward if the person talking doesn't believe it's awkward.

And that's the kind of thing a good therapist could have helped her with.  If he couldn't get her to talk to him or get professional help, my guess is that there probably wasn't anything he could have done differently to save things despite his human tendency toward self-blame. 

One takeaway may be how much damage is done by the stigma around mental health care.

True, but just to be absolutely clear, I wasn't actually commenting on how I felt Mrs Doom should have handled things, I don't know her and have virtually no opinion about her. I was just using the Dooms as a theoretical example of how a woman in that situation isn't by default in any position to feel awkward.

I was simply replying to the pp who seemed to be implying that his retirement would make socializing for her awkward. I was countering that if the wife didn't feel awkward herself, there would be no awkwardness talking about a retired spouse.

[zolotiyeruki]

If you phrased it that way, sure, but there's no reason why it would have to be awkward.

Person: "Hi Mrs. Doom, how is work?"
Mrs Doom: "Work is great! I retired for a bit, but found I missed it"
Person: "What's Mr. Doom up to?"
Mrs Doom: "He did not miss work, so he's still up to his usual projects [Optional additional info] It's actually great that he retired so young because he was diagnosed with a rare genetic disorder, so it's been wonderful that he doesn't have to worry about work, and can focus on his health"
Person: "Oh, is he okay?"
Mrs Doom: "Oh yeah, it's not a progressive illness, so as long as he focuses on his health and exercise, he'll probably stay healthier than everyone else. As I said, it really worked out that he was able to retire. Besides, he's so happy now, it's a lot of fun to come home to after work"

See? Not awkward if the person talking doesn't believe it's awkward.

And that's the kind of thing a good therapist could have helped her with.  If he couldn't get her to talk to him or get professional help, my guess is that there probably wasn't anything he could have done differently to save things despite his human tendency toward self-blame. 

One takeaway may be how much damage is done by the stigma around mental health care.

True, but just to be absolutely clear, I wasn't actually commenting on how I felt Mrs Doom should have handled things, I don't know her and have virtually no opinion about her. I was just using the Dooms as a theoretical example of how a woman in that situation isn't by default in any position to feel awkward.

I was simply replying to the pp who seemed to be implying that his retirement would make socializing for her awkward. I was countering that if the wife didn't feel awkward herself, there would be no awkwardness talking about a retired spouse.

That's a fair point, and one worth exploring.  Things are embarrassing or awkward only if you judge your own choices or situation by someone else's expectations or by the version of their life you can see.  If you accept that your choices, circumstances, abilities, motivations, or lifestyle are out-of-the-ordinary, and you're comfortable with them, then there's no need to be embarrassed.  If others judge you because your spouse is taking time off work to deal with health issues, that's their problem, not yours.  Let them live in their petty misery of working a job they don't like so they can buy things they don't need in order to impress people they don't like, as the saying goes.

Like my baldness: "Yup, I started going bald at age 30.  I definitely look better with it shaved!"  Or my rusty, 25-year-old car: "Hey, now--this baby's been with us since before we were married. Isn't that awesome?"  Or, FIRE (someday, for me): "Yeah, we budgeted carefully, worked our tails off, invested wisely, and now we have enough that we don't have to work."

[dougules]

quote author=zolotiyeruki link=topic=121408.msg2811015#msg2811015 date=1616181619]

If you phrased it that way, sure, but there's no reason why it would have to be awkward.

Person: "Hi Mrs. Doom, how is work?"
Mrs Doom: "Work is great! I retired for a bit, but found I missed it"
Person: "What's Mr. Doom up to?"
Mrs Doom: "He did not miss work, so he's still up to his usual projects [Optional additional info] It's actually great that he retired so young because he was diagnosed with a rare genetic disorder, so it's been wonderful that he doesn't have to worry about work, and can focus on his health"
Person: "Oh, is he okay?"
Mrs Doom: "Oh yeah, it's not a progressive illness, so as long as he focuses on his health and exercise, he'll probably stay healthier than everyone else. As I said, it really worked out that he was able to retire. Besides, he's so happy now, it's a lot of fun to come home to after work"

See? Not awkward if the person talking doesn't believe it's awkward.

And that's the kind of thing a good therapist could have helped her with.  If he couldn't get her to talk to him or get professional help, my guess is that there probably wasn't anything he could have done differently to save things despite his human tendency toward self-blame. 

One takeaway may be how much damage is done by the stigma around mental health care.

True, but just to be absolutely clear, I wasn't actually commenting on how I felt Mrs Doom should have handled things, I don't know her and have virtually no opinion about her. I was just using the Dooms as a theoretical example of how a woman in that situation isn't by default in any position to feel awkward.

I was simply replying to the pp who seemed to be implying that his retirement would make socializing for her awkward. I was countering that if the wife didn't feel awkward herself, there would be no awkwardness talking about a retired spouse.

Ok.  I misread.  I was really only being judgmental about the resistance to therapy, anyway, and maybe not so specifically at her as in general.  Also just saying that I detected a note of overly harsh self-criticism from him.

But I think some of the tendency to pick apart their story is a desire to figure out how we can avoid the same pitfalls.  I know I have an underlying worry about how FIRE will affect my marriage and want to have an idea of what to watch out for.  Being in the US, I know I'm concerned about planning for how medical bills could affect my finances.  There may or may not be value in dissecting his struggles, but it definitely taps into worries I have when planning for FIRE.   

That's a fair point, and one worth exploring.  Things are embarrassing or awkward only if you judge your own choices or situation by someone else's expectations or by the version of their life you can see.  If you accept that your choices, circumstances, abilities, motivations, or lifestyle are out-of-the-ordinary, and you're comfortable with them, then there's no need to be embarrassed.  If others judge you because your spouse is taking time off work to deal with health issues, that's their problem, not yours.  Let them live in their petty misery of working a job they don't like so they can buy things they don't need in order to impress people they don't like, as the saying goes.

Like my baldness: "Yup, I started going bald at age 30.  I definitely look better with it shaved!"  Or my rusty, 25-year-old car: "Hey, now--this baby's been with us since before we were married. Isn't that awesome?"  Or, FIRE (someday, for me): "Yeah, we budgeted carefully, worked our tails off, invested wisely, and now we have enough that we don't have to work."

There's a lot of judgment about keeping up with the Joneses, but it's understandable to want to stay connected to the Joneses.  When you take on a lifestyle and a set of values that is completely alien to so many of the people you know, it's going to make it harder to connect.  Most of the people who post here are already just used to going against the grain, but that doesn't make it easy. 

[Bloop Bloop Reloaded]

I think sometimes in MMM land the assumption can be that going along with societal expectations and keeping up with the Joneses is always bad...but it's not; it's only bad if it's an unexamined choice.

I don't bicycle because I don't like biking.

I drive because I like driving.

I'm frugal because I like being frugal but sometimes I spend lavishly because I like it.

I generally don't buy showy things but sometimes I do, and that's okay too.

As long as those choices are examined choices then they are valid for the person in question. Dr Doom's wife may have made her own examined choices. There is no scope for criticism of that.

[chevy1956]

Dr Doom's wife may have made her own examined choices. There is no scope for criticism of that.

Cheating in my opinion is the wrong thing to do. I couldn't care less if you choose to spend more money.

[Bird In Hand]

Got back today to read the last part, after the turn-around point.

My spouse also spent 30k, making our combined total 60k /yr

i thought the 30k at the top of the page was pretty big, but made sense with all the travel mentioned.
60k? It strikes me as very weird to call it LEAN FIRE with so much FAT in the Post-FIRE

He rented, and I think he said the house they had been renting sold for $1.15 million last year.  So it could be that they were paying $30k-$40k in rent alone each year.  Maybe it was a spendypants house, or maybe housing costs are just high in that area.  And if housing costs are high, it's likely that other costs are high as well.

[Milizard]

I appreciate Dr. Doom's honesty and introspection.   I don't want to criticize his marriage in any way, but want to comment on one facet of retirement that may be related.   I'm also introverted and don't have a ton of energy, but the description sounds a bit boring even to me, after a period of much-needed decompression.  I'd get depressed if that's all I could look forward to too.  They say you should retire to something.  Its important to have things to look forward to in the future.

Though technically not retired, I didn't do paid work from Dec 2013 to Nov  2019.  I never, ever missed the old job that I should have left a decade earlier  in retrospect,  but it absolutely drove me nuts that I felt like I wasn't where I should be in my life.  I wasn't moving forward.   I could have taken better advantage of the extra time I had, but feeling stuck like that made me feel really depressed.   Now, I'm finally working full-time again,  from home, and am much happier feeling like I am where I should be.   I  may retire in 5 years, or 11 years (when I turn 60 and qualify for extra retiree Healthcare $), or maybe  later--I don't know.  I'm just happy to be moving forward again.  Suddenly,  I have a lot more possibilities on the horizon.

[crimp]

Got back today to read the last part, after the turn-around point.

My spouse also spent 30k, making our combined total 60k /yr

i thought the 30k at the top of the page was pretty big, but made sense with all the travel mentioned.
60k? It strikes me as very weird to call it LEAN FIRE with so much FAT in the Post-FIRE

He rented, and I think he said the house they had been renting sold for $1.15 million last year.  So it could be that they were paying $30k-$40k in rent alone each year.  Maybe it was a spendypants house, or maybe housing costs are just high in that area.  And if housing costs are high, it's likely that other costs are high as well.

In the greater Boston area rents are easily in the $2-4k/month range for a house that would sell for 1mil. Even  studios rent for $1100-1900 depending on quality and location. If they split the rent for a 3k per month house they’d both be spending $20k each on housing and utilities alone.

[WhiteTrashCash]

I appreciate Dr. Doom's honesty and introspection.   I don't want to criticize his marriage in any way, but want to comment on one facet of retirement that may be related.   I'm also introverted and don't have a ton of energy, but the description sounds a bit boring even to me, after a period of much-needed decompression.  I'd get depressed if that's all I could look forward to too.  They say you should retire to something.  Its important to have things to look forward to in the future.

Though technically not retired, I didn't do paid work from Dec 2013 to Nov  2019.  I never, ever missed the old job that I should have left a decade earlier  in retrospect,  but it absolutely drove me nuts that I felt like I wasn't where I should be in my life.  I wasn't moving forward.   I could have taken better advantage of the extra time I had, but feeling stuck like that made me feel really depressed.   Now, I'm finally working full-time again,  from home, and am much happier feeling like I am where I should be.   I  may retire in 5 years, or 11 years (when I turn 60 and qualify for extra retiree Healthcare $), or maybe  later--I don't know.  I'm just happy to be moving forward again.  Suddenly,  I have a lot more possibilities on the horizon.

I don't know Dr. Doom very well -- and I don't know his ex-wife at all -- but he was describing his ex-wife in the sort of way that made her seem like she had no interests that she pursued, like he pursued writing. Retirement isn't just supposed to be sitting around doing nothing. It's supposed to be a time where you can pursue what you are truly passionate about or develop new interests. I know a lot of retirees who get into vintage computing, creating YouTube channels, becoming birders/hikers/campers/outdoorspeople in general, taking up crafting with a community of like-minded people, etc. I didn't see a lot of indication that his ex-wife was doing anything like that. Instead, she seemed to focus on "losing out" on materialistic living, which is an incredibly sad way of life.

[sui generis]

I appreciate Dr. Doom's honesty and introspection.   I don't want to criticize his marriage in any way, but want to comment on one facet of retirement that may be related.   I'm also introverted and don't have a ton of energy, but the description sounds a bit boring even to me, after a period of much-needed decompression.  I'd get depressed if that's all I could look forward to too.  They say you should retire to something.  Its important to have things to look forward to in the future.

Though technically not retired, I didn't do paid work from Dec 2013 to Nov  2019.  I never, ever missed the old job that I should have left a decade earlier  in retrospect,  but it absolutely drove me nuts that I felt like I wasn't where I should be in my life.  I wasn't moving forward.   I could have taken better advantage of the extra time I had, but feeling stuck like that made me feel really depressed.   Now, I'm finally working full-time again,  from home, and am much happier feeling like I am where I should be.   I  may retire in 5 years, or 11 years (when I turn 60 and qualify for extra retiree Healthcare $), or maybe  later--I don't know.  I'm just happy to be moving forward again.  Suddenly,  I have a lot more possibilities on the horizon.

I don't know Dr. Doom very well -- and I don't know his ex-wife at all -- but he was describing his ex-wife in the sort of way that made her seem like she had no interests that she pursued, like he pursued writing. Retirement isn't just supposed to be sitting around doing nothing. It's supposed to be a time where you can pursue what you are truly passionate about or develop new interests. I know a lot of retirees who get into vintage computing, creating YouTube channels, becoming birders/hikers/campers/outdoorspeople in general, taking up crafting with a community of like-minded people, etc. I didn't see a lot of indication that his ex-wife was doing anything like that. Instead, she seemed to focus on "losing out" on materialistic living, which is an incredibly sad way of life.

Who knows how well his writing represents her side or any sort of objective truth, but yes, I agree.  I've never been on the "you have to retire TO something" bandwagon, but I do think you at least have to be intrepid enough to go out and find stuff even if you don't have something you are retiring to right away.  In that way, I think early retirement can be a lot more challenging, like existentially AND practically, than having a job.  No one's going to give you a set of duties or expectations that you can just go do and know you are fulfilling expectations (or "purpose").  You have to find that on your own.  And it's a lot harder question to answer.  Early retirement: not for the faint of heart!

[Trudie]

Dr. Doom was/is an inspiration, and I appreciate his honesty.  Above all, it’s a reminder that not all decisions are forever.  FIRE requires flexibility.  He’s having to pivot, and I don’t consider this a failure.  It’s life.

My SIL and BIL retired in their mid to late fifties.  Everything seemed to be going fine for awhile, but then they moved from the small town where he had lived for 40 years and raised his sons (second marriage for him) to the university town where we live.  They went from owning a house on a suburban lot to a modern condo.  They hate it.  Or maybe one of them does and is making the other miserable?!?  We can’t quite tell.  They cite not liking their condo, but allude to other things they’re missing.  All in all, we don’t think it’s really about not liking the condo.  It’s more existential than that... lacking purpose and identity and (we suspect) not communicating well. 

So, I understand Dr. Doom... sometimes you find out you are not values-compatible with your partner.

[SwordGuy]

That was a good read!

I wish him the best.

[flyingaway]

Considering MMM is also divorced, so divorce in FIRE could be a real problem.

[Metalcat]

Considering MMM is also divorced, so divorce in FIRE could be a real problem.

There's two ways to interpret this

1: That divorce in FIRE could be a real problem because divorce is so common, and presents a HUGE financial risk to all retirees

2: FIRE increases the chances of divorce. Well, divorce is EXTREMELY common, so it's pretty silly to think that FIRE causes it. What FIRE can do is catalyze the breakdown of a marriage that was already fracturing, because major life changes of any sort do that, which is why home renovations so frequently trigger divorce.

Also, as I already pointed out, a lot of marriages stay together not because they're good marriages, but because neither spouse can comfortably afford divorce, so if a couple are comfortably FIREd, yes, they might be more likely to get divorced because they don't have financial pressure keeping them together.

However, a couple with a strong marriage with excellent communications skills and a solid foundation of shared values? They're not going to end up divorced just because they have more free time. That's absurd.

When discussing divorce, people always seem to make the logical error that the norm is that married people stay together and stay happy. That's simply not the truth. So we don't really need to go looking for exceptional reasons why couples divorce, because just normal day to day life leads to divorce.

[maizefolk]

Agreed that divorce is a quite common outcome of marriages (and a nontrivial percentage of the marriages which don't end in divorce are made up of people who'd probably like to split but stay together for the kids or financial reasons).

Also while it can be really misleading to generalize from small numbers, it can be even more misleading to generalize from just trying to think which FIRE personalities have gotten divorced rather than which FIRE personalities have known martial statuses one way or another. I tried to remember FIRE personalities I've either read or heard of. Aside from the three mentioned above:

Jacob (ERE): Married and as far as I know still is.
GoCurryCracker: Married and as far as I know still is.
MadFIentist: Married (I had to google this) and as far as I know still is.
Jason Fieber (DGI/Mr. Free at 33): As far as I know never married.
Stoic Investor: Divorced prior to pursuing FI.
The Frugalwoods: As far as I know still married.
FinancialSamuri: Married and as far as I know still is.

That's where I ran out of names and my list likely reflects whoever was particularly active when I was still doing a lot more active learning about FIRE strategies (or has managed to create enough controversy they come up frequently on this forum). But if one were interested the list could obviously be expanded significantly.

[GuitarStv]

Early retirement is a pretty radical change in situation.  I could easily see this sort of change leading to a lot of introspection/self questioning that there simply wasn't time for before . . . and wouldn't be surprised if this often ends up leading to divorce.  It depends strongly on the relationship of course.

[Metalcat]

Early retirement is a pretty radical change in situation.  I could easily see this sort of change leading to a lot of introspection/self questioning that there simply wasn't time for before . . . and wouldn't be surprised if this often ends up leading to divorce.  It depends strongly on the relationship of course.

Exactly, any major life change will reveal fault lines in a marriage, but no marriage can avoid major life changes forever. A really solid marriage will likely thrive in FIRE as it provides more freedom to build a future collaboratively.

My early retirement has been great for my marriage.

[tooqk4u22]

There's a lot of judgment about keeping up with the Joneses, but it's understandable to want to stay connected to the Joneses.  When you take on a lifestyle and a set of values that is completely alien to so many of the people you know, it's going to make it harder to connect.  Most of the people who post here are already just used to going against the grain, but that doesn't make it easy.

Fortunately or unfortunately our social circle includes a lot of "Joneses"  with high incomes and commensurate spending....luxury cars, stay at home wives who go our to lunch multiple times a week and shopping is a hobby.   They go out to high end dinners regularly as well.   Always getting new home improvements (several have redone kit cheese recently to the tune of $125k not to mention bathrooms, patios, etc) but I digress.  Anyway  they are good fun people and our kids are friends with their kids (who also get best of everything) but we don't keep up (by design) but it still can have an effect on us, even me who doesn't care barely at all but my wife does to some extent and I care if she is feeling it.   

Money is not endless and all that would certainly require way more,  but we do participate in some of the outings (not all of them and nor would I want too) and accept that we drive older cars and aren't updating everything all the time (BTW when did kitchens become disposable?).   It helps that we are probably somewhere between FIRE and Fat FIRE (whatever that means)

People here do regularly dismiss these circumstances such as just move or get new friends or tell DW to suck it up or whatever....and that is not how life works, Sure it can sometimes but there are tradeoffs to everything.