Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!

[Mmm_Donuts]

Re home renovation: another major cause for divorce is differences in financial values. If one spouse wants to FIRE off of 500k, and the other 5M, that's a major fault line. So - sometimes divorce IS caused by FIRE disagreements. I think this is the case in the Doom scenario (but perhaps less extreme).

[TempusFugit]

I think everyone is making valid points, but just to clarify mine, I was referring to a specific form of FIRE, where only one of the partners is actually RE and the other continues to work for whatever reason.  My concern there is that resentment would begin to creep in, and resentment, I believe, is the single biggest problem (in that it leads to so many others) in any relationship. 

[Metalcat]

I think everyone is making valid points, but just to clarify mine, I was referring to a specific form of FIRE, where only one of the partners is actually RE and the other continues to work for whatever reason.  My concern there is that resentment would begin to creep in, and resentment, I believe, is the single biggest problem (in that it leads to so many others) in any relationship.

I addressed this as well.

I don't think resentment is a given. Couples who make decisions collaboratively aren't going to be resentful.
As I said, in our case, DH gets a huge benefit from me not working, so he doesn't resent it at all. Also, resentment doesn't need to ever build up, good communication *can* avoid this. It's just not a given.

[Metalcat]

Re home renovation: another major cause for divorce is differences in financial values. If one spouse wants to FIRE off of 500k, and the other 5M, that's a major fault line. So - sometimes divorce IS caused by FIRE disagreements. I think this is the case in the Doom scenario (but perhaps less extreme).

There's a difference between cause and catalyze.

A difference in financial and life values can cause a divorce, an event that puts pressure on that fault line can catalyze a divorce. The renovations and the retirement don't cause the conflict, they reveal the underlying conflict and fan the flames of it.

[Mmm_Donuts]

Re home renovation: another major cause for divorce is differences in financial values. If one spouse wants to FIRE off of 500k, and the other 5M, that's a major fault line. So - sometimes divorce IS caused by FIRE disagreements. I think this is the case in the Doom scenario (but perhaps less extreme).

There's a difference between cause and catalyze.

A difference in financial and life values can cause a divorce, an event that puts pressure on that fault line can catalyze a divorce. The renovations and the retirement don't cause the conflict, they reveal the underlying conflict and fan the flames of it.

I agree. I think we are getting tripped up over just this: I believe FIRE is a complex value system, not a specific one-time event. So when I say FIRE disagreements can cause divorce, I mean - the life and financial value systems, not the one-time event of quitting a job. And if it were not a complex and challenging process that unfolds over a long timeline with many areas of uncertainty, this forum would be empty ;)

[Metalcat]

Re home renovation: another major cause for divorce is differences in financial values. If one spouse wants to FIRE off of 500k, and the other 5M, that's a major fault line. So - sometimes divorce IS caused by FIRE disagreements. I think this is the case in the Doom scenario (but perhaps less extreme).

There's a difference between cause and catalyze.

A difference in financial and life values can cause a divorce, an event that puts pressure on that fault line can catalyze a divorce. The renovations and the retirement don't cause the conflict, they reveal the underlying conflict and fan the flames of it.

I agree. I think we are getting tripped up over just this: I believe FIRE is a complex value system, not a specific one-time event. So when I say FIRE disagreements can cause divorce, I mean - the life and financial value systems, not the one-time event of quitting a job. And if it were not a complex and challenging process that unfolds over a long timeline with many areas of uncertainty, this forum would be empty ;)

Sure, but I still hold that FIRE, and the entire complex process, isn't an inherent risk to marriages. For some, it will be a challenge that puts fault lines under pressure, and for others, it will make things much, much easier.

Same with any significant life change, including renovating a house, changing jobs, having kids, losing a parent, developing health issues, relocating, etc, etc.

[Mmm_Donuts]

Yep, for sure, I think I said that above. For some people, FIRE makes life easier; for others, more difficult.

In Dooms case though - just based on what he said, of course - there was no way out of the situation where both partners would have been satisfied. If she had convinced him to keep working till they had met *her* comfort level with FIRE, he would have been miserable. And clearly she was miserable with their finances at the point they FIREd at. Seems like these were just irreconcilable FIRE value differences.

[DaMa]

When DH and I remarried, I planned to find part-time work outside health insurance after a few months off.  We liked me not working so much, that we decided to stay that way.  He liked that I took over most of the household stuff, which gave him more free time.  It was working out very well, but who knows what would have happened long term.  I was very focused on making his life easier where I could.  Not working reduced my stress level and made our marriage better, IMO.

It seemed normal that Doom's wife wanted to go back to work.  I've considered it several times.  I think most of us do.  What was shocking was she didn't want to be with him not working.  That's just BS in my opinion. 

And then the whole not wanting to be with him unhealthy?  She was already checked out by then, because no one would do that to someone they loved.

I would have gone back to work in my career if DH wanted to retire early, just like Doom has done.  DH liked his job and wanted to work until 65, so I didn't need to.  I completely support Doom working to fund FIRE for his partner.

On the flip side, my SIL quit working 4 years ago, and she and her husband are clearly miserable.  I suspect they would divorce if they had a substantial 'stache.  They are the opposite of FIRE - spending the 401k while he is still working.

Maybe gender roles play a part in this.  DH and my BIL both have the man works to support his family hard-wired.  Is it easier when the husband works and the wife doesn't? 

[maizefolk]

Maybe gender roles play a part in this.  DH and my BIL both have the man works to support his family hard-wired.  Is it easier when the husband works and the wife doesn't?

I'd wondered about that. There are plenty of great stories in the forum of husbands who FIRE first and are able to be more supportive of wives that continue to work and everyone seems way happier than before.

But I've also read several times about women who tell their husbands they aren't comfortable with the husband retiring while the wife still works and don't think I've ever heard the same situation come up with the genders reversed (although, to be clear, me not hearing about it certainly doesn't mean it doesn't happen).

Looking at society more broadly, a study -- now a a decade old mind you -- found that divorce was somewhat more common in couples where the wife out earned the husband and that there is also a cliff right at the 50:50 split line where couples where the husband earns slightly more than the wife are significantly more common than couples where the wife earns slightly more than the husband.

https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w19023/w19023.pdf

[TempusFugit]

Maybe gender roles play a part in this.  DH and my BIL both have the man works to support his family hard-wired.  Is it easier when the husband works and the wife doesn't?

I'd wondered about that. There are plenty of great stories in the forum of husbands who FIRE first and are able to be more supportive of wives that continue to work and everyone seems way happier than before.

But I've also read several times about women who tell their husbands they aren't comfortable with the husband retiring while the wife still works and don't think I've ever heard the same situation come up with the genders reversed (although, to be clear, me not hearing about it certainly doesn't mean it doesn't happen).

Looking at society more broadly, a study -- now a a decade old mind you -- found that divorce was somewhat more common in couples where the wife out earned the husband and that there is also a cliff right at the 50:50 split line where couples where the husband earns slightly more than the wife are significantly more common than couples where the wife earns slightly more than the husband.

https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w19023/w19023.pdf

Yes from what I understand, totally based on what I’ve read Im no psychologist or sociologist, but the literature is clear that as a rule women want to marry equal or higher status men whereas men in general are much more likely (more likely than women) to marry someone from a lower status. This is one of the issues that we are facing as a society where women now outnumber men in colleges and universities. This is leading to a dearth of “marriageable” men for the higher status women.

How is status defined?  In our culture it isn't any secret that education, job, and money are the signalers of status.   For a FIREee, maybe there is money but if it isn't being openly utilized, that signal of status is not doing any signalling.  This is really what I was tiptoeing around whenI said that humans are driven by impulses we don't even recognize in ourselves.  And there isn’t anything wrong with the social drives like this one!  They exist for good reasons and are a result of thousands of years of our developing culture.   

[Metalcat]

Yep, for sure, I think I said that above. For some people, FIRE makes life easier; for others, more difficult.

In Dooms case though - just based on what he said, of course - there was no way out of the situation where both partners would have been satisfied. If she had convinced him to keep working till they had met *her* comfort level with FIRE, he would have been miserable. And clearly she was miserable with their finances at the point they FIREd at. Seems like these were just irreconcilable FIRE value differences.

Yes, I totally agree. I think they had fundamentally incompatible values on a few fronts.

I'm entirely unconvinced that him continuing to work or agreeing to go back to work would have resolved those incompatibilities.

If what you are saying is that being frugal and aiming for FIRE is a distinctive set of values that is more likely to encounter friction with people who don't share them, then yeah, I'll absolutely sign on to that. But to me that's an entirely different concept believing that FIRE itself increases a risk of divorce more than any other major life change.

[henramdrea]

Maybe gender roles play a part in this.  DH and my BIL both have the man works to support his family hard-wired.  Is it easier when the husband works and the wife doesn't?

I'd wondered about that. There are plenty of great stories in the forum of husbands who FIRE first and are able to be more supportive of wives that continue to work and everyone seems way happier than before.

But I've also read several times about women who tell their husbands they aren't comfortable with the husband retiring while the wife still works and don't think I've ever heard the same situation come up with the genders reversed (although, to be clear, me not hearing about it certainly doesn't mean it doesn't happen).

Looking at society more broadly, a study -- now a a decade old mind you -- found that divorce was somewhat more common in couples where the wife out earned the husband and that there is also a cliff right at the 50:50 split line where couples where the husband earns slightly more than the wife are significantly more common than couples where the wife earns slightly more than the husband.

https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w19023/w19023.pdf

Yes from what I understand, totally based on what I’ve read Im no psychologist or sociologist, but the literature is clear that as a rule women want to marry equal or higher status men whereas men in general are much more likely (more likely than women) to marry someone from a lower status. This is one of the issues that we are facing as a society where women now outnumber men in colleges and universities. This is leading to a dearth of “marriageable” men for the higher status women.

How is status defined?  In our culture it isn't any secret that education, job, and money are the signalers of status.   For a FIREee, maybe there is money but if it isn't being openly utilized, that signal of status is not doing any signalling.  This is really what I was tiptoeing around whenI said that humans are driven by impulses we don't even recognize in ourselves.  And there isn’t anything wrong with the social drives like this one!  They exist for good reasons and are a result of thousands of years of our developing culture.   

This is an interesting take and I see why you'd want to tip-toe around it a bit.

I'd like to see the "studies" on this if you could link any. 

Anecdotally, (N=5 or 6 females) some aren't really concerned whether a prospective mate makes more money or less money than them.  The concern usually comes from the other side (guys) where there's some discomfort or feelings of less worth when men make less than their female partners.  On the flipside, females tend to seek males with a higher self-confidence (back to my N of 5 or 6 single females in my circle) and annual income may play a role there for some males.
My 2 cents.

[Metalcat]

Maybe gender roles play a part in this.  DH and my BIL both have the man works to support his family hard-wired.  Is it easier when the husband works and the wife doesn't?

I'd wondered about that. There are plenty of great stories in the forum of husbands who FIRE first and are able to be more supportive of wives that continue to work and everyone seems way happier than before.

But I've also read several times about women who tell their husbands they aren't comfortable with the husband retiring while the wife still works and don't think I've ever heard the same situation come up with the genders reversed (although, to be clear, me not hearing about it certainly doesn't mean it doesn't happen).

Looking at society more broadly, a study -- now a a decade old mind you -- found that divorce was somewhat more common in couples where the wife out earned the husband and that there is also a cliff right at the 50:50 split line where couples where the husband earns slightly more than the wife are significantly more common than couples where the wife earns slightly more than the husband.

https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w19023/w19023.pdf

Yes from what I understand, totally based on what I’ve read Im no psychologist or sociologist, but the literature is clear that as a rule women want to marry equal or higher status men whereas men in general are much more likely (more likely than women) to marry someone from a lower status. This is one of the issues that we are facing as a society where women now outnumber men in colleges and universities. This is leading to a dearth of “marriageable” men for the higher status women.

How is status defined?  In our culture it isn't any secret that education, job, and money are the signalers of status.   For a FIREee, maybe there is money but if it isn't being openly utilized, that signal of status is not doing any signalling.  This is really what I was tiptoeing around whenI said that humans are driven by impulses we don't even recognize in ourselves.  And there isn’t anything wrong with the social drives like this one!  They exist for good reasons and are a result of thousands of years of our developing culture.   

Hmm, the hundreds of female medical professionals I know who have married men in less prestigious careers with lower incomes don't line up with your theory.

Among certain women, the main status they care about is how loving and attentive their husbands are. There's even a certain population of women who gain social status in having husbands who are willing to be stay at home fathers while the wives are the bread winners.

As gender roles evolve so do these types of values.

In my *extensive* experience socializing among professionally and financially successful women, a lot of them couldn't give a flying fuck about the "status" of their partner, and actually prefer not to marry someone with an equally demanding career.

I never would have dated someone with as prestigious or demanding a career as mine. Too much career for one marriage for my taste. DH made about a third what I did and had about a third of the stress, and thank goodness for that. Still, I gain A LOT of social capital from being married to him because women always love him. I get a lot more "status" from being married to someone like him than by marrying someone who makes even more money than I do. No one in my social circle would care if my husband made more money.

[Tinker]

In my *extensive* experience socializing among professionally and financially successful women, a lot of them couldn't give a flying fuck about the "status" of their partner, and actually prefer not to marry someone with an equally demanding career.

but do they? And even if they do, anecdotal. Kinda like the majority of woke posts emerge from ivory tower counties/neighborhoods/expensive colleges and other places of extreme privilege.
TempusFugit is just citing from a vast body of studies and literature.

[former player]

In my *extensive* experience socializing among professionally and financially successful women, a lot of them couldn't give a flying fuck about the "status" of their partner, and actually prefer not to marry someone with an equally demanding career.

but do they? And even if they do, anecdotal. Kinda like the majority of woke posts emerge from ivory tower counties/neighborhoods/expensive colleges and other places of extreme privilege.
TempusFugit is just citing from a vast body of studies and literature.

The calculation in what makes a good life partner for you changes if you are earning 5 or 10 times the median income.

[kpd905]

Hmm, the hundreds of female medical professionals I know who have married men in less prestigious careers with lower incomes don't line up with your theory.

Pretty crazy that you not only know hundreds of female medical professionals, but you know them all well enough to be knowledgeable about their husbands careers.  That is a lot of data points in the anecdote column I guess.  The majority of the doctors I work with are married to someone in a less prestigious career, whether they are male or female.  I just assume that once someone is making $250,000+, it is more likely they will find someone making less than that, rather than more.

[Bruinguy]

In my *extensive* experience socializing among professionally and financially successful women, a lot of them couldn't give a flying fuck about the "status" of their partner, and actually prefer not to marry someone with an equally demanding career.

but do they? And even if they do, anecdotal. Kinda like the majority of woke posts emerge from ivory tower counties/neighborhoods/expensive colleges and other places of extreme privilege.
TempusFugit is just citing from a vast body of studies and literature.

TempusFugit has not cited anything.  Maybe he has read a vast body of studies and literature that support his statement, but he has not shared which ones for us to consider if we agree with his interpretation.

I’d be interested in knowing the date of the studies, for example.

[Metalcat]

Hmm, the hundreds of female medical professionals I know who have married men in less prestigious careers with lower incomes don't line up with your theory.

Pretty crazy that you not only know hundreds of female medical professionals, but you know them all well enough to be knowledgeable about their husbands careers.

I'm the president of a large womens group of medical professionals, and yeah, we talk about our spouses A LOT, because one of the main topics of conversation is managing children and a demanding career, so the roles that partners play is talked about frequently.

ETA: I will make a correction to my statement though, I know hundreds of female medical professionals, probably about half of them have lower earning partners, the other half mostly have equal earning partners in the same profession, who often work with them, a small minority have higher earning partners. It's just really rare that people in my city earn more than people in my profession, so it's unlikely to marry someone who does.

[Metalcat]

In my *extensive* experience socializing among professionally and financially successful women, a lot of them couldn't give a flying fuck about the "status" of their partner, and actually prefer not to marry someone with an equally demanding career.

but do they? And even if they do, anecdotal. Kinda like the majority of woke posts emerge from ivory tower counties/neighborhoods/expensive colleges and other places of extreme privilege.
TempusFugit is just citing from a vast body of studies and literature.

I'm not buying that it's some kind of biologic imperative for women to be hung up on the career and income of their partner.

My point was not that in general women don't care about this, I'm sure they do. My point was that it depends on the circumstances of what the women determine as valuable. When it's high earning women in my circle, they don't get a status boost from having a high earning husband.

My point was that what constitutes status depends on the social milieu.

TP has stated repeatedly that one partner working and one partner not is pretty much guaranteed to lead to resentment and problems in a marriage. Now they're suggesting, I think, that it's partly because women have a biological imperative to partner with men with enough "status" from career and wealth??

That's simply not my lived experience.

Also, yeah, I'm sharing a personal anecdote, I am not speaking for all women, I'm simply demonstrating how the social behaviours and expectations of an out-group can be different. And all of TP's comments have been in relation to the FIRE community, which is a major out-group, so even if larger populational studies supported this claim, then it's not a given that it applies to the FIRE community in general.

I'm perfectly fine acknowledging that a man earning more is a social expectation, and that many women who subscribe to gender norms feel pressure to only date men with higher incomes and more prestigious careers. This is established by decades of history. However, as I said, gender dynamics are changing, and so are social norms.

Nowhere are social norms and expectations changed more radically than in the damn FIRE community.

[maizefolk]

Yup, there is a difference between observing a modest aggregate trend in a population as a whole, and assuming that trend applies to every (or even most) individuals. It's also interesting to see how quickly the discussion goes from "couples where the husband works and the wife doesn't vs those where the wife works and the husband doesn't" to "it's because women want X".

Going back to the studies on income imbalance (because I don't know any giant statistical surveys in the effects of FIRE itself and this seems like the best proxy): Husbands who earn less than their wives tend to overstate their earnings on survey questions. They also understate the earnings of their wives by more than they overstate their own. Wives who earn more than their husbands tend to understate their earnings on survey questions and overstate the earnings of their husbands by more than they understate their own earnings.* To me this outcomes suggests that whatever societal expectation we are seeing the aggregate impact of across the population -- if any -- are reflected in the thinking of both (some) women AND (some) men, rather than being a unique result of only men's preferences or only women's preferences.

*Source: https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/working-papers/2018/demo/SEHSD-WP2018-20.pdf

[Metalcat]

Yup, there is a difference between observing a modest aggregate trend in a population as a whole, and assuming that trend applies to every (or even most) individuals. It's also interesting to see how quickly the discussion goes from "couples where the husband works and the wife doesn't vs those where the wife works and the husband doesn't" to "it's because women want X".

Going back to the studies on income imbalance (because I don't know any giant statistical surveys in the effects of FIRE itself and this seems like the best proxy): Husbands who earn less than their wives tend to overstate their earnings on survey questions. They also understate the earnings of their wives by more than they overstate their own. Wives who earn more than their husbands tend to understate their earnings on survey questions and overstate the earnings of their husbands by more than they understate their own earnings.* To me this outcomes suggests that whatever societal expectation we are seeing the aggregate impact of across the population -- if any -- are reflected in the thinking of both (some) women AND (some) men, rather than being a unique result of only men's preferences or only women's preferences.

*Source: https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/working-papers/2018/demo/SEHSD-WP2018-20.pdf
[/quote


Funny you mention this, because in my personal experience with women who make a lot of money, it wasn't the women who wanted men who made more money, it was the men who were unwilling to date women who made more money. A lot of these women specifically want men with less demanding jobs, the kind that can be left to pick up sick kids from school, but a lot of those men were put off. That's why there's social value among my circle of being able to find a supportive man who is comfortable with a woman's career taking priority in the marriage. It's not always the easiest thing to secure.

So yeah, the social pressure goes both ways. I personally find it's rapidly changing though, and I don't think this dynamic is nearly as prevalent among young people these days.

[flyingaway]

If you FIRE, and travel around the world, do something interesting involving two people, you will probably not have a problem.
If you leanFIRE, you may not have resources to do many things, just stay at home, write your own "novel", I can see a potential problem with your partner.

[redbird]

I don't post here much, being more of a lurker. But DH and I REed on the same day in 2015. Our marriage is still very strong, maybe stronger than it was before early retirement because we are obviously around each other more. We've been married for about 12 years total now. DH did go back to work about 1 year after ER and he worked less than 1 year. It wasn't that we needed the cash. We wanted a mortgage and it's far easier to get one when you have a paycheck coming in. We can afford to pay off our house completely in cash (even could then) but we got such a low mortgage rate that it's better for our money to sit in the market than to pay it off immediately. But outside of that, neither of us has worked any sort of paying job since REing in 2015.

I don't think FIRE changes the rate of divorce. Divorce is already common for a myriad of reasons. RE is a major life change. Major life changes can absolutely change things for people personally. Maybe RE wasn't for Dr. Doom's wife. Maybe she never really wanted it and just did it because Dr. Doom wanted it. Maybe she did want it and find out it wasn't for her. Or maybe she changed her mind. All of those are valid things. I really dislike the fact that she went the infidelity route and personally find that unacceptable, but her unhappiness with how her life was and wanting different things itself is valid.

When you retire, whether that's early or not, I feel like you need a game plan. Leaving work is a dramatic change. What are you going to fill your day with instead of work? What sorts of things make you feel personally fulfilled in life? Do you have socialization outside of work? If not, then what are you going to get involved with that will let you make friends and interact with people?

Also, be aware that existing relationships with people may change. Maybe you will feel like you have less in common with them. DH and I don't have children, but even when we still worked, I absolutely saw relationships change just because of marital status and child status. The people with children and the people without children suddenly had a bit less in common and sometimes their friendships fell apart. Retiring can cause similar things to happen. It doesn't necessarily have to be jealousy. Maybe you bonded over complaining about work. Maybe you mostly saw each other AT work. Maybe you now want different things.

[Cressida]

Maybe gender roles play a part in this.  DH and my BIL both have the man works to support his family hard-wired.  Is it easier when the husband works and the wife doesn't?

I'm coming a little late to this conversation, but I think there could well be some truth to this. One thing we don't know is how Dr. Doom and his wife allocated household maintenance. If (speculatively) Ms. Doom was already doing more maintenance work (because of gender role expectations), and then felt that she wanted to go back to work while Dr. Doom didn't - or alternatively if the work was evenly split but she felt that it would continue to be evenly split even if she was the only one working - I can see how she would feel a nagging unfairness. I have no idea if this was actually the case but it's not mentioned in the piece.

Not defending either of them; not enough information.


edit: also not defending adultery. I'm only wondering about the beginnings of the conflict.

[flyingaway]

Although it was posted on 3/25/2021, I did not know it until yesterday, that Arebelspy, another well-known figure in this community, is also divorced recently.

There might be something to ponder about the cases, MMM, Dr. Doom, Arebelspy, (maybe) and others. We cannot blame FIRE for their divorces, but we cannot ignore the facts. It is a better attitude to deal with it, not ignore it.

Based what I read, it seems that the FIRE journeys of the three persons were pushed mainly by themselves. Their partners played minor roles. The partners might not be willingly on board of the FIRE businesses. 

FIREing can result in an action to move away from your familiar communities (moving to a different location, into woods, travelling around the world). In many cases, that puts women in difficult situations as many of them need social interactions with friends, co-workers, etc.

[Metalcat]

Although it was posted on 3/25/2021, I did not know it until yesterday, that Arebelspy, another well-known figure in this community, is also divorced recently.

There might be something to ponder about the cases, MMM, Dr. Doom, Arebelspy, (maybe) and others. We cannot blame FIRE for their divorces, but we cannot ignore the facts. It is a better attitude to deal with it, not ignore it.

Based what I read, it seems that the FIRE journeys of the three persons were pushed mainly by themselves. Their partners played minor roles. The partners might not be willingly on board of the FIRE businesses. 

FIREing can result in an action to move away from your familiar communities (moving to a different location, into woods, travelling around the world). In many cases, that puts women in difficult situations as many of them need social interactions with friends, co-workers, etc.

I'm not sure how you got the impression that Mrs. MMM wasn't an active partner in their FIRE goals and success.

I mean, maybe she wasn't, maybe she was dragged along for the ride, but we don't know because the only thing that's publicly known about her is that she's quite private.

The populational rate of divorce is very high, these divorces are not out of the range of normal divorce rates in the population. So there's no reason to assume that FIRE has anything to do with it unless the person specifies that it did play a role, like Doom did.

So yes, do FIRE folks need to be vigilant in their marriages to make sure that they and their partners are on the same page in terms of finances and goals? Of course. But how does that differ from any other couple??

But no, there's nothing about FIRE that would rationally raise divorce rates above those of the overall population. Y'know, the overa population who are drowning in debt, not even talking to their partners about their finances, and can't afford to retire???

Yeah...you really think there's a HIGHER risk of divorce than THAT population???

I think people forget that Gen Pop isn't a happy or healthy population of people on average. Their marriages aren't exactly doing well.

[Zikoris]

Although it was posted on 3/25/2021, I did not know it until yesterday, that Arebelspy, another well-known figure in this community, is also divorced recently.

There might be something to ponder about the cases, MMM, Dr. Doom, Arebelspy, (maybe) and others. We cannot blame FIRE for their divorces, but we cannot ignore the facts. It is a better attitude to deal with it, not ignore it.

Based what I read, it seems that the FIRE journeys of the three persons were pushed mainly by themselves. Their partners played minor roles. The partners might not be willingly on board of the FIRE businesses. 

FIREing can result in an action to move away from your familiar communities (moving to a different location, into woods, travelling around the world). In many cases, that puts women in difficult situations as many of them need social interactions with friends, co-workers, etc.

I don't know about these specific people, but I suspect there are a LOT of drag-along spouses only pretending to be into FIRE. It just happens with so many things, and it's so, so shitty. Another area where this happens a lot is to childfree people - go to any childfree discussion space and you'll find oodles of people who thought they were happily in childfree relationships, but it turns out the other person wanted kids the whole time, and it eventually comes out and they split. It's happened to me personally when I was younger. I wish people would just be honest from the get-go, seriously. But it seems to be a really common problem.

[Cool Friend]

Although it was posted on 3/25/2021, I did not know it until yesterday, that Arebelspy, another well-known figure in this community, is also divorced recently.

There might be something to ponder about the cases, MMM, Dr. Doom, Arebelspy, (maybe) and others. We cannot blame FIRE for their divorces, but we cannot ignore the facts. It is a better attitude to deal with it, not ignore it.

Based what I read, it seems that the FIRE journeys of the three persons were pushed mainly by themselves. Their partners played minor roles. The partners might not be willingly on board of the FIRE businesses. 

FIREing can result in an action to move away from your familiar communities (moving to a different location, into woods, travelling around the world). In many cases, that puts women in difficult situations as many of them need social interactions with friends, co-workers, etc.

I don't know about these specific people, but I suspect there are a LOT of drag-along spouses only pretending to be into FIRE. It just happens with so many things, and it's so, so shitty. Another area where this happens a lot is to childfree people - go to any childfree discussion space and you'll find oodles of people who thought they were happily in childfree relationships, but it turns out the other person wanted kids the whole time, and it eventually comes out and they split. It's happened to me personally when I was younger. I wish people would just be honest from the get-go, seriously. But it seems to be a really common problem.

Another thing to consider is that no one actually knows if they will enjoy retirement until they achieve it. It's easy (and very reasonable!) to assume that you'll be happier when you stop working and get to spend your time however you please, whenever you please. But there's no way to really know until that's what your life is. in Dr. Doom's update, he suggests that maybe his ex-wife was lying about wanting FIRE the whole time, but what I was hearing from how he characterized her explanation is that FIRE was not what she expected it to be, and she didn't find herself happy the way she imagined she would. To me, that makes a lot more sense than she was lying about what she wanted. Certainly we sometimes dissemble our true desires, but it's also true that people chase goals and become disappointed and disillusioned upon achieving them all the time.

[Metalcat]

Although it was posted on 3/25/2021, I did not know it until yesterday, that Arebelspy, another well-known figure in this community, is also divorced recently.

There might be something to ponder about the cases, MMM, Dr. Doom, Arebelspy, (maybe) and others. We cannot blame FIRE for their divorces, but we cannot ignore the facts. It is a better attitude to deal with it, not ignore it.

Based what I read, it seems that the FIRE journeys of the three persons were pushed mainly by themselves. Their partners played minor roles. The partners might not be willingly on board of the FIRE businesses. 

FIREing can result in an action to move away from your familiar communities (moving to a different location, into woods, travelling around the world). In many cases, that puts women in difficult situations as many of them need social interactions with friends, co-workers, etc.

I don't know about these specific people, but I suspect there are a LOT of drag-along spouses only pretending to be into FIRE. It just happens with so many things, and it's so, so shitty. Another area where this happens a lot is to childfree people - go to any childfree discussion space and you'll find oodles of people who thought they were happily in childfree relationships, but it turns out the other person wanted kids the whole time, and it eventually comes out and they split. It's happened to me personally when I was younger. I wish people would just be honest from the get-go, seriously. But it seems to be a really common problem.

Yeah, and again, this happens in SO MANY relationships, where one person goes along with another's plans without ever voicing their needs. I don't think the FIRE community has more of that.

It probably has less since it's really hard to pull off FIRE without actively talking about your finances, which increases the chances of someone speaking up.

A lot of normal couples out there literally NEVER talk about their finances, so there isn't even an opportunity to ever voice that one partner is not on the same page.

This is a thing to be concerned about in any marriage, on any topic.

[Metalcat]

Although it was posted on 3/25/2021, I did not know it until yesterday, that Arebelspy, another well-known figure in this community, is also divorced recently.

There might be something to ponder about the cases, MMM, Dr. Doom, Arebelspy, (maybe) and others. We cannot blame FIRE for their divorces, but we cannot ignore the facts. It is a better attitude to deal with it, not ignore it.

Based what I read, it seems that the FIRE journeys of the three persons were pushed mainly by themselves. Their partners played minor roles. The partners might not be willingly on board of the FIRE businesses. 

FIREing can result in an action to move away from your familiar communities (moving to a different location, into woods, travelling around the world). In many cases, that puts women in difficult situations as many of them need social interactions with friends, co-workers, etc.

I find that statement a bit sexist as I think that can hold true for just about anyone. Lots of women (as we see here at MMM forums) are just as equally interested in changing things when they FIRE as men are. In my personal experience (divorced)  it seems men are more tied to their jobs and the status quo compared to women. But that's just my impression. My own FIRE plans, whether single or in a relationship, involved lots of active solo adventures. Sometimes in the woods... alone... in a tent... in the dark... ;-)

In any case I think you are correct that often the changes people may make when FIREing could have a negative, and often unforseen until they experience it, effect on a relationship. One may fully embrace the FIRE life - and even a large variety of change and adventure - and the other may find it a big let down. That could lead to divorce for FIREd people but that may be the case for any couple who make lifestyle changes.

Fucking hell, I missed that little sexist tidbit in my first skim of that post.

Women are the ones who need social interactions???
I'm sorry, how many adult men do we have complaining on a near daily basis about how hard it is to make friends in adulthood???

Since when do women need friends more than men???

Also, why assume that it's men driving a move away from established communities? Also, Doom didn't move anywhere, MMM didn't move anywhere.

I think it's completely inaccurate to depict the FIRE community as having a high proportion of men after retirement dragging woman around the world and tearing them away from their comforting social supports.

Like, how many FIRE couples has this person actually met? Because that does NOT gel with my version of reality.

Also, even if that were the case. There are also tons of higher earning *working* husbands relocating their families for the sake of jobs all the time. So this phenomenon of women being ripped from their friends happens in the working population all the time.

[Zikoris]

Yeah, and again, this happens in SO MANY relationships, where one person goes along with another's plans without ever voicing their needs. I don't think the FIRE community has more of that.

It probably has less since it's really hard to pull off FIRE without actively talking about your finances, which increases the chances of someone speaking up.

A lot of normal couples out there literally NEVER talk about their finances, so there isn't even an opportunity to ever voice that one partner is not on the same page.

This is a thing to be concerned about in any marriage, on any topic.

I do think there can be some unique circumstances specific to FIRE though, especially on the consumption front, that can make it trickier to get honest answers out of people. People don't want to see themselves as over-consuming and materialistic, so I would guess that some people aren't going to come right out and say to their FIRE-zealot partner, who's talking about saving the planet etc, that "Actually, I do want to buy all that stuff and consume like crazy until the day I die". It just makes someone kind of sound like a piece of shit to admit it, you know? I don't know what the solution is though. Of course, people should just be honest, but a lot of people aren't even honest with themselves about what they actually want.

[Metalcat]

Yeah, and again, this happens in SO MANY relationships, where one person goes along with another's plans without ever voicing their needs. I don't think the FIRE community has more of that.

It probably has less since it's really hard to pull off FIRE without actively talking about your finances, which increases the chances of someone speaking up.

A lot of normal couples out there literally NEVER talk about their finances, so there isn't even an opportunity to ever voice that one partner is not on the same page.

This is a thing to be concerned about in any marriage, on any topic.

I do think there can be some unique circumstances specific to FIRE though, especially on the consumption front, that can make it trickier to get honest answers out of people. People don't want to see themselves as over-consuming and materialistic, so I would guess that some people aren't going to come right out and say to their FIRE-zealot partner, who's talking about saving the planet etc, that "Actually, I do want to buy all that stuff and consume like crazy until the day I die". It just makes someone kind of sound like a piece of shit to admit it, you know? I don't know what the solution is though. Of course, people should just be honest, but a lot of people aren't even honest with themselves about what they actually want.

I don't necessarily agree. I think on average people are pretty comfortable claiming their preferred lifestyles and priorities when it comes to what they want to spend.

That's why they say they "need" a certain sized house and "need" and SUV, etc.

There wouldn't be so many beautiful stone countertops out there if people were shy about expressing to their partners what they want to spend more money on.

Plus you have to either seek out a FIRE zealot partner or have a partner become a FIRE zealot. So either it's something the person wanted in the first place, or its something new, and people are generally pretty amazing at resisting change.

If there's someone who is poor enough at speaking up for their own needs in the face of a partner who becomes a FIRE zealot against their desires, then that person was going to have problems in any marriage. Because ALL marriages require HUGE major collective decisions.

It's not like so called "normal" marriages are easy and devoid of extremely complex financial dynamics.

FIRE doesn't make those financial negotiations harder, it just changes the flavour of them.

Being aligned with another human being in terms of all major priorities for decades on end until death is just hard.

Something being unique to FIRE doesn't mean it is uniquely hard. Just like something being common doesn't make it easier. Debt is common, it isn't easy.

[tooqk4u22]

I don't know about these specific people, but I suspect there are a LOT of drag-along spouses only pretending to be into FIRE. It just happens with so many things, and it's so, so shitty. Another area where this happens a lot is to childfree people - go to any childfree discussion space and you'll find oodles of people who thought they were happily in childfree relationships, but it turns out the other person wanted kids the whole time, and it eventually comes out and they split. It's happened to me personally when I was younger. I wish people would just be honest from the get-go, seriously. But it seems to be a really common problem.

This makes a lot of sense.....especially as it compares to having kids.....it's basically winer lose, it's not like you can have half of a kid.   Just like you really can't have half of FIRE.   This is the primary reason I wanted to fat FIRE bc we are partners and my lack of desires don't match her desires.   I still worry about this bc DW is more spendy and keeping up with others, but we are great together and I don't want this to be an issue, even if we already have different  expectations.

[Metalcat]

I don't know about these specific people, but I suspect there are a LOT of drag-along spouses only pretending to be into FIRE. It just happens with so many things, and it's so, so shitty. Another area where this happens a lot is to childfree people - go to any childfree discussion space and you'll find oodles of people who thought they were happily in childfree relationships, but it turns out the other person wanted kids the whole time, and it eventually comes out and they split. It's happened to me personally when I was younger. I wish people would just be honest from the get-go, seriously. But it seems to be a really common problem.

This makes a lot of sense.....especially as it compares to having kids.....it's basically winer lose, it's not like you can have half of a kid.   Just like you really can't have half of FIRE.   This is the primary reason I wanted to fat FIRE bc we are partners and my lack of desires don't match her desires.   I still worry about this bc DW is more spendy and keeping up with others, but we are great together and I don't want this to be an issue, even if we already have different  expectations.

Actually you absolutely can have half of FIRE. It's not like she expects you to never retire, right? You have to plan to stop working at some point, so how early you do that can be a compromise.

So if you could retire at 35 on your preferred numbers, but she wants to spend a lot more and you meet in the middle and retire at 50, then you've split the difference. You work an extra 15 yours, but you also retire 15 years earlier than 65.

If she gets that you need to retire at some point, and that the money hose gets shut off at that point, then she already is prepared for hoh to stop working. Exactly when is up for negotiation.

Then on top of that, there's always the option to continue doing some degree of paid work, or even returning to work.

Doom's wife wanted him to go back to work to fund more lifestyle inflation, which he didn't want to do. But he's happily going back to work to support his new girlfriend being able to retire happily with him.

FIRE is not at all like a baby, it's actually remarkably flexible, negotiable, and there are always options of going back to work.

Not being on the same page financially is a major issue in any marriage. You can't out-earn a discrepancy in life goals. Eventually you have to be on the same page.

[tooqk4u22]

Yeah, and again, this happens in SO MANY relationships, where one person goes along with another's plans without ever voicing their needs. I don't think the FIRE community has more of that.

It probably has less since it's really hard to pull off FIRE without actively talking about your finances, which increases the chances of someone speaking up.

A lot of normal couples out there literally NEVER talk about their finances, so there isn't even an opportunity to ever voice that one partner is not on the same page.

This is a thing to be concerned about in any marriage, on any topic.

I do think there can be some unique circumstances specific to FIRE though, especially on the consumption front, that can make it trickier to get honest answers out of people. People don't want to see themselves as over-consuming and materialistic, so I would guess that some people aren't going to come right out and say to their FIRE-zealot partner, who's talking about saving the planet etc, that "Actually, I do want to buy all that stuff and consume like crazy until the day I die". It just makes someone kind of sound like a piece of shit to admit it, you know? I don't know what the solution is though. Of course, people should just be honest, but a lot of people aren't even honest with themselves about what they actually want.

I don't necessarily agree. I think on average people are pretty comfortable claiming their preferred lifestyles and priorities when it comes to what they want to spend.

That's why they say they "need" a certain sized house and "need" and SUV, etc.

There wouldn't be so many beautiful stone countertops out there if people were shy about expressing to their partners what they want to spend more money on.

Plus you have to either seek out a FIRE zealot partner or have a partner become a FIRE zealot. So either it's something the person wanted in the first place, or its something new, and people are generally pretty amazing at resisting change.

If there's someone who is poor enough at speaking up for their own needs in the face of a partner who becomes a FIRE zealot against their desires, then that person was going to have problems in any marriage. Because ALL marriages require HUGE major collective decisions.

It's not like so called "normal" marriages are easy and devoid of extremely complex financial dynamics.

FIRE doesn't make those financial negotiations harder, it just changes the flavour of them.

Being aligned with another human being in terms of all major priorities for decades on end until death is just hard.

Something being unique to FIRE doesn't mean it is uniquely hard. Just like something being common doesn't make it easier. Debt is common, it isn't easy.

Malcat you are generally well intentioned in your comments but in this one other than it can be hard is misplaced.   Just like the decision to have kids can go only one way, FIRE can be equally so.   I have been with DW forever and love her to death but what is important to me spending wise vs hers is different but add to that that I was just done with work (burnt out to the nth degree).   And while she "bought in" at her core she wants to keep up with the higher income people. In all other aspects we are sympatico but in this we are not......it's tough to reconcile.   

[Metalcat]

Malcat you are generally well intentioned in your comments but in this one other than it can be hard is misplaced.   Just like the decision to have kids can go only one way, FIRE can be equally so.   I have been with DW forever and love her to death but what is important to me spending wise vs hers is different but add to that that I was just done with work (burnt out to the nth degree).   And while she "bought in" at her core she wants to keep up with the higher income people. In all other aspects we are sympatico but in this we are not......it's tough to reconcile.

Actually I totally get it, but having to retire because of burnout is totally different from choosing to FIRE, at least from my perspective.

Here's why: I had to leave my career, which dramatically changed our circumstances, our goals, and our plans. I didn't FIRE, I retired because I had to.

If my DH was struggling with losing the lifestyle we could have afforded had I continued working, yeah, that would be brutal. I 100% understand how challenging that must be.

If you had had the capacity to keep working though, I imagine you probably would have in order to get closer to her desired lifestyle? That's what I'm meant by negotiable. I'm referring to people who are retiring early by choice.

Not people who are experiencing severe burnout, and have already probably worked several years past their capacity and are suffering for it. That's not FIRE, that's necessary medical retirement.

There's a reason I don't refer to my situation as FIRE. I didn't choose this. I would have worked 7 more years to hit my FIRE savings goal. I didn't make it to FIRE, I had to tap out early, and it sounds like you had to as well.

Yeah, that's hard.

ETA: my situation is easier than yours tough, I still have a 6 figure earning spouse who is more than happy to work to 60, which compensates for the loss of my larger income. Also, my reason for having to retire is physical injury and illness, which tends to be much easier for a spouse to accept as a non negotiable need to stop working, even though severe burnout is just as medically valid and urgent IMO. Lastly, it's also easier because my DH is the more frugal of the two of us, so I'm the one more disappointed by my lost income, and am constantly contemplating building a new career that I can medically handle to earn more. He's the one constantly telling me that we don't need more money.

So if I find my situation hard, I can totally understand why you find yours incredibly difficult.

[Cassie]

Sometimes one spouse has a dominating personality and doesn’t really listen to the other person. If the other person is conflict resistant or just conflicted this could lead to the more dominant spouse not realizing their goals are not in alignment. Also sometimes the weaker spouse doesn’t realize it themes for awhile.

[MrThatsDifferent]

Although it was posted on 3/25/2021, I did not know it until yesterday, that Arebelspy, another well-known figure in this community, is also divorced recently.

There might be something to ponder about the cases, MMM, Dr. Doom, Arebelspy, (maybe) and others. We cannot blame FIRE for their divorces, but we cannot ignore the facts. It is a better attitude to deal with it, not ignore it.

Based what I read, it seems that the FIRE journeys of the three persons were pushed mainly by themselves. Their partners played minor roles. The partners might not be willingly on board of the FIRE businesses. 

FIREing can result in an action to move away from your familiar communities (moving to a different location, into woods, travelling around the world). In many cases, that puts women in difficult situations as many of them need social interactions with friends, co-workers, etc.

Wow! That is shocking news! Feels wrong to know it, but truly shocking with 3 young kids. My thoughts go out to them all.

[Fomerly known as something]

FIRE is a major life changing event, just as having kids, having your kids leave the nest or regular retirement.  I know people who have divorced because of all of these lifestyle changes as well.  It tends to be because the couple agrees with the concept, when the event happens it actually effects one spouses goals and desires in a way neither predicted and eventually leads to them no longer being as compatible as they once were.  We all change, with spouses the changes can bring you closer or drive you apart.

[Raenia]

Malcat you are generally well intentioned in your comments but in this one other than it can be hard is misplaced.   Just like the decision to have kids can go only one way, FIRE can be equally so.   I have been with DW forever and love her to death but what is important to me spending wise vs hers is different but add to that that I was just done with work (burnt out to the nth degree).   And while she "bought in" at her core she wants to keep up with the higher income people. In all other aspects we are sympatico but in this we are not......it's tough to reconcile.

I of course don't know the details of your situation, but it seems to me that lack of agreement on financial goals and priorities would have existed regardless of your decision/need to retire.  One or both of you were already compromising - either you were planning to work for money you didn't really want or think you needed, or she was accepting a lifestyle and spending level that wasn't what she wanted, or both.  That's an issue that would have caused tension and needed to be discussed and reconciled even if you had kept working.  Your need to retire (and I agree with Malcat that burnout is a real medical condition that deserves just as much respect as more visible injury) just forced the conversation that you might have been successfully avoiding before, it didn't create an issue that wasn't present under the surface.  It did bring some of the compromise options off the table, though, which makes it more difficult than reconciling different goals under better circumstances.

Best of luck getting through this difficult time!

[By the River]

I don't know about these specific people, but I suspect there are a LOT of drag-along spouses only pretending to be into FIRE. It just happens with so many things, and it's so, so shitty. Another area where this happens a lot is to childfree people - go to any childfree discussion space and you'll find oodles of people who thought they were happily in childfree relationships, but it turns out the other person wanted kids the whole time, and it eventually comes out and they split. It's happened to me personally when I was younger. I wish people would just be honest from the get-go, seriously. But it seems to be a really common problem.

This makes a lot of sense.....especially as it compares to having kids.....it's basically winer lose, it's not like you can have half of a kid.   Just like you really can't have half of FIRE.   This is the primary reason I wanted to fat FIRE bc we are partners and my lack of desires don't match her desires.   I still worry about this bc DW is more spendy and keeping up with others, but we are great together and I don't want this to be an issue, even if we already have different  expectations.

We are on the path to fat FIRE (probably Chubby FIRE) which I do see as half of FIRE.  We could both leave work today, cut some expenses, and have great lives.  However, we are working a little while longer to have even greater lives and help more people in the future.  The additional work will be 10-36 months, not sure yet, but we are talking about it and trying to determine our goals and risk acceptance together. 

[Metalcat]

Sometimes one spouse has a dominating personality and doesn’t really listen to the other person. If the other person is conflict resistant or just conflicted this could lead to the more dominant spouse not realizing their goals are not in alignment. Also sometimes the weaker spouse doesn’t realize it themes for awhile.

True, but that would be a problem in any marriage, no?
Working more and spending more wouldn't solve that.

Working more and spending more doesn't lower the probability of having money problems in a marriage.

[effigy98]

I think what is at major play here is genetic.

Hypogamy is where a woman has a need to be with someone with a certain status above them. FIRE changes peoples status in society and unless she is totally onboard with this, it is going to cause some major disturbances in the force. Probably better to wait when you a FIRE before marrying or make sure you have 100% buy-in. People can say they know what they would be cool with, but experiencing it is a different story.

[sui generis]

I think what is at major play here is genetic.

Hypogamy is where a woman has a need to be with someone with a certain status above them.

Oh JFC.

[Aegishjalmur]

I think what is at major play here is genetic.

Hypogamy is where a woman has a need to be with someone with a certain status above them. FIRE changes peoples status in society and unless she is totally onboard with this, it is going to cause some major disturbances in the force. Probably better to wait when you a FIRE before marrying or make sure you have 100% buy-in. People can say they know what they would be cool with, but experiencing it is a different story.

Misogonistic much? Troll.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hypogamy

hypogamy
noun

hy·​pog·​a·​my | \ hīˈpägəmē, hə̇ˈ- \
plural -es
Definition of hypogamy
: marriage into a lower caste, class, or social group

[Cressida]

I think what is at major play here is genetic.

Hypogamy is where a woman has a need to be with someone with a certain status above them.

Such silly creatures with their inherently flawed ladybrains.

[Dicey]

I think what is at major play here is genetic.

Hypogamy is where a woman has a need to be with someone with a certain status above them.

Such silly creatures with their inherently flawed ladybrains.

I think you forgot this: /s

[partgypsy]

I think the poster meant to say hypergamy. Regardless, it is a tired, sexist cliche.

[RetiredAt63]

Hypergamy is a social construct.  Niles Eldredge discusses it in "Why We Do It".

[Metalcat]

I think the poster meant to say hypergamy. Regardless, it is a tired, sexist cliche.

Unbelievable.

Doom specifically indicated untreated mental health issues, and that she exhibited a number of callous, unreasonable expectations, and said cruel and hurtful things about his health.

And apparently that's because genetically women are awful? Not because this particular person struggled with emotional problems?

What the actual fuck?