Author Topic: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!  (Read 77440 times)

Zoot

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Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« on: March 17, 2021, 07:20:19 AM »
Hey, everybody--I know that there are many, many fans of Dr. Doom here, so wanted to share that I got an e-mail notifying me of a new post at his blog with an early retirement update!

Here's the link:  https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-update/

Mods, feel free to move this to a more appropriate sub-forum if desired; I was so excited to see the post that my discerning faculty was impaired.  :)

DaMa

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2021, 07:50:14 AM »
Thanks for the heads up!

2sk22

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2021, 08:26:32 AM »
Wow! That was some update. I read all of his writing and I have to say he was quite influential in my decision to retire.

However, even when I was reading his thought processes, I kept getting the feeling that he had little margin for unexpected events. I am so glad that he has come through his big life changes as well as he has - he is resilient!

mwulff

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2021, 08:36:48 AM »
He has always been an influence on me and I love his writing. Glad he ended up in a better position than where he started

Trifle

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2021, 08:47:42 AM »
Thanks for the heads up!

ETA: Just finished reading the post, and holy shite, that is quite a read.  Not what I would have wished for for him, but sounds like he is doing ok.   
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 09:19:20 AM by Trifele »

cool7hand

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2021, 08:58:29 AM »
Good, honest read. Thanks!

Dicey

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2021, 08:59:36 AM »
Wow! Good read indeed! Thanks for the alert.

FireStone

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2021, 09:10:09 AM »
Thanks for posting!

terran

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2021, 09:11:09 AM »
Thanks for posting this, I would have missed it since he's been quiet for so long.

lemonlyman

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2021, 09:30:05 AM »
He always had some of the best stuff. This is another great post and refreshing take. Also a good balance to most bloggers flippant attitude towards healthcare.

Cool Friend

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2021, 09:45:50 AM »
Quote
I also should point out that working helped to reduce my feelings of isolation and loneliness — it gave me something concrete to do, people to interact with, that kind of thing. It provided problems and situations to keep my brain busy in the wake of the split up so I couldn’t ruminate/obsess on it endlessly.  This might sound like I’m trying to hard to find positives about working again but holy shit I am not.  Staying busy helped me to get through this period of my life.

It's a real pity he wasn't able to recognize this same need in his ex-wife's struggle with retirement, and instead dismissed it as a shallow, weak need to conform and keep up with the Joneses. I'm glad he found a good therapist and is working on improving his skills communication with his new partner.

Linea_Norway

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2021, 10:45:40 AM »
Wow, what a post. Good to read that a profiled blogger is living a real life and needs to improvise when the SHTF and then writes about it.

We cannot expect to live in the same way forever, life can happen. And in worst case, if we need more stash, it isn't worse than going back to work.

I am very glad he found a new partner who might even be a better match.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 10:47:40 AM by Linea_Norway »

yachi

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2021, 10:52:20 AM »
Quote
I also should point out that working helped to reduce my feelings of isolation and loneliness — it gave me something concrete to do, people to interact with, that kind of thing. It provided problems and situations to keep my brain busy in the wake of the split up so I couldn’t ruminate/obsess on it endlessly.  This might sound like I’m trying to hard to find positives about working again but holy shit I am not.  Staying busy helped me to get through this period of my life.

It's a real pity he wasn't able to recognize this same need in his ex-wife's struggle with retirement, and instead dismissed it as a shallow, weak need to conform and keep up with the Joneses. I'm glad he found a good therapist and is working on improving his skills communication with his new partner.

Did you notice the extended relationship talks at https://livingafi.com/post-fire-relationship-disconnect/ ?  She didn't just want to go back to working, she wanted him to go back to working.  And reading through some of those discussions makes it seem like he went at least 60% of the way, and she couldn't do the last 40%.


Edit: I see what you mean:

"Her: I felt like it was enough when I was earning money and I had people reporting to me and I was solving problems and closing projects out and leading a team.

Him: I call bullshit.  You hated it.  Four out of five nights a week we would just bitch about work in the evenings.  Where was the satisfaction then?"
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 10:54:30 AM by yachi »

yachi

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2021, 11:14:39 AM »
I'm thoroughly confused about the "Extremely Rough Financials."  I assumed part of his reason for needing to return to work was because he lost a portion of the stash in the divorce, but it seems that did not happen.  I'm not too familiar with Dr. Doom, did they keep separate finances, and separate his/hers retirement stash?

I count the bid D as the single greatest risk to ER.  Nothing else has a higher potential for permanent loss of capital.  It's concerning to learn of situations where a spouse becomes disillusioned with the new lifestyle.

crimp

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2021, 11:23:22 AM »
This was a great read. Communication is hard, especially when your values are different.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2021, 09:37:48 AM by crimp »

maizefolk

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2021, 11:50:21 AM »
Thank you for posting this, 2sk22. I always enjoyed reading Dr. Doom but after the years of silence I never would have thought to check this site and I'm not subscribed. Entry packed a major wallop but it's really useful to hear about both how things could go wrong and how they could go right, and what happens when things go wrong and how a person can recover.


kite

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2021, 12:41:10 PM »
I'm thoroughly confused about the "Extremely Rough Financials."  I assumed part of his reason for needing to return to work was because he lost a portion of the stash in the divorce, but it seems that did not happen.  I'm not too familiar with Dr. Doom, did they keep separate finances, and separate his/hers retirement stash?

I count the bid D as the single greatest risk to ER.  Nothing else has a higher potential for permanent loss of capital.  It's concerning to learn of situations where a spouse becomes disillusioned with the new lifestyle.

Chronic or catastrophic health problems are right up there, too. 

Aelias

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2021, 12:45:47 PM »
Quote
I also should point out that working helped to reduce my feelings of isolation and loneliness — it gave me something concrete to do, people to interact with, that kind of thing. It provided problems and situations to keep my brain busy in the wake of the split up so I couldn’t ruminate/obsess on it endlessly.  This might sound like I’m trying to hard to find positives about working again but holy shit I am not.  Staying busy helped me to get through this period of my life.

It's a real pity he wasn't able to recognize this same need in his ex-wife's struggle with retirement, and instead dismissed it as a shallow, weak need to conform and keep up with the Joneses. I'm glad he found a good therapist and is working on improving his skills communication with his new partner.

Meh. There is clearly a lot of anger and sadness tied up with how his relationship with his ex ended.  I had two good friends who divorced as a result of adultery, and I will say it took the cheated-on person A LONG TIME to let go of the anger.  And, frankly, for all we know, she really was feeling like she wanted to keep up with others in her social group.  Which is a perfectly normal, natural impulse because we are social animals.  Anyway, we're only ever going to get his side of the story because it's a personal blog--that's kind of the nature of the beast.

And, yes, this is a great read.  A bookmark worthy one.  One I will probably revisit again and again as I get closer to FIRE.  I think it's really helpful to hear someone talk frankly about how stepping way outside the mainstream strains social relationships. It makes all the sense in the world -- if your lifestyle becomes really different than that of your friends / social group, eventually you'll have less in common and you'll grow apart.  But hearing him speak very directly to how lonely FIRE can be and how that growing apart contributed to the end of his relationship is thought provoking.

My dad worked until close to standard retirement age, working for the same company for the last 20 years of his career.  I'm sure there were tough, frustrating days. In fact, he taught me VERY early on that all jobs are a ratio of fun stuff to bullshit and you will never fully eliminate the bullshit but you should try to optimize the fun stuff.  But when he talks about his career, and in particular his retirement party, he absolutely beams with pride. In his personal narrative, the years he spent in his profession are an identity and an achievement worthy of his time. It's also clear to me that since he retired, he has slowed down a lot.  In the first few years he LOVED retirement and had a lot of travel and projects, but since then health issues have caught up with him and my mom, and they just seem to be declining. Some of that's to be expected at their age, some of that's probably Covid isolation, but it does make me wonder if detaching from work contributed to that decline. 

Of course, I'll never know what would have happened if he'd kept working a few more years or if he even wanted to.  Maybe his health would have declined faster.  Maybe he would have really regretted not having those few years of travel and projects.  And maybe they like being slowed down. Or maybe he and my mom have a few more of those years in them.  Who's to say?

But he retired in his late 50s.  I'm on track to retire in my mid 40s. And reading Doom's post and reflecting on my dad's experience makes me wonder if disconnecting from work disconnects you from a whole part of the world and, if you do that too early, that disconnect does more harm than good.  Then again, is puttering away at an unfulfilling job really the best way to spend your days?  Is it worth it just to stay comfortably, securely attached to the hivemind with the attendant compensation and health benefits?

It's something to think about.

Cool Friend

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2021, 01:08:55 PM »
Quote
I also should point out that working helped to reduce my feelings of isolation and loneliness — it gave me something concrete to do, people to interact with, that kind of thing. It provided problems and situations to keep my brain busy in the wake of the split up so I couldn’t ruminate/obsess on it endlessly.  This might sound like I’m trying to hard to find positives about working again but holy shit I am not.  Staying busy helped me to get through this period of my life.

It's a real pity he wasn't able to recognize this same need in his ex-wife's struggle with retirement, and instead dismissed it as a shallow, weak need to conform and keep up with the Joneses. I'm glad he found a good therapist and is working on improving his skills communication with his new partner.

Meh. There is clearly a lot of anger and sadness tied up with how his relationship with his ex ended.  I had two good friends who divorced as a result of adultery, and I will say it took the cheated-on person A LONG TIME to let go of the anger.  And, frankly, for all we know, she really was feeling like she wanted to keep up with others in her social group.  Which is a perfectly normal, natural impulse because we are social animals.

Yeah, I know, that's what I'm saying. He didn't notice that he was trying to keep up with others too--he compares himself to other FI bloggers a couple times in that post. Keeping up with the Lees isn't that different than keeping up with the Joneses, you know?  I'm saying I feel bad for him that he didn't have the self-awareness at the time to realize that he and his ex-wife had the same needs, and unfortunately he characterized her needs as being inauthentic and conformist, while his own were independent and more meaningful. That turned out to be false.

Not sure what you mean about anger/sadness, by his own account, he was dismissive of her change of heart before the infidelity.

Aelias

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2021, 01:43:01 PM »
Quote
I also should point out that working helped to reduce my feelings of isolation and loneliness — it gave me something concrete to do, people to interact with, that kind of thing. It provided problems and situations to keep my brain busy in the wake of the split up so I couldn’t ruminate/obsess on it endlessly.  This might sound like I’m trying to hard to find positives about working again but holy shit I am not.  Staying busy helped me to get through this period of my life.

It's a real pity he wasn't able to recognize this same need in his ex-wife's struggle with retirement, and instead dismissed it as a shallow, weak need to conform and keep up with the Joneses. I'm glad he found a good therapist and is working on improving his skills communication with his new partner.

Meh. There is clearly a lot of anger and sadness tied up with how his relationship with his ex ended.  I had two good friends who divorced as a result of adultery, and I will say it took the cheated-on person A LONG TIME to let go of the anger.  And, frankly, for all we know, she really was feeling like she wanted to keep up with others in her social group.  Which is a perfectly normal, natural impulse because we are social animals.

Yeah, I know, that's what I'm saying. He didn't notice that he was trying to keep up with others too--he compares himself to other FI bloggers a couple times in that post. Keeping up with the Lees isn't that different than keeping up with the Joneses, you know?  I'm saying I feel bad for him that he didn't have the self-awareness at the time to realize that he and his ex-wife had the same needs, and unfortunately he characterized her needs as being inauthentic and conformist, while his own were independent and more meaningful. That turned out to be false.

Not sure what you mean about anger/sadness, by his own account, he was dismissive of her change of heart before the infidelity.

Perhaps we're just talking past each other, my Cool Friend.  I don't see his comparing himself to other bloggers as necessarily the same as her comparing herself to the lives she sees on social media.  He was simply recognizing that perhaps other FI personalities seemed to be happier / more successful because they had openly built FI into a public identity and created a community around it while he was just . . . a guy without a job and an anonymous blog.  His ex wasn't just pondering others lifestyles to try to understand her unhappiness, she was taking active steps to emulate that lifestyle.

What I meant by the anger / sadness was that, by the tone of his writing, he's still got a lot of unresolved negative emotions toward his ex.  And I think those may be preventing him from seeing the situation clearly or understanding why she felt the way she did.  And I feel like, given how the relationship ended, that's understandable.  Maybe not great, but at least understandable.

Anyway -- enough deconstructing the relationships of strangers for one day.

Cool Friend

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2021, 02:02:22 PM »


I don't see his comparing himself to other bloggers as necessarily the same as her comparing herself to the lives she sees on social media.  He was simply recognizing that perhaps other FI personalities seemed to be happier / more successful because they had openly built FI into a public identity and created a community around it while he was just . . . a guy without a job and an anonymous blog.  His ex wasn't just pondering others lifestyles to try to understand her unhappiness, she was taking active steps to emulate that lifestyle.


She was simply recognizing that perhaps other FB personalities seemed to be happier / more successful because they had openly built middle class working life into a public identity and created a community around it while she was just . . . a gal without a job and an anonymous blogger husband.

edit: agree there's a lot of food for thought and I feel icky delving too deep in someone else's relationship. I just saw a lost opportunity for their connection and understanding, and I feel empathy for them.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 02:05:49 PM by Cool Friend »

remizidae

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2021, 02:13:03 PM »
Quote
I also should point out that working helped to reduce my feelings of isolation and loneliness — it gave me something concrete to do, people to interact with, that kind of thing. It provided problems and situations to keep my brain busy in the wake of the split up so I couldn’t ruminate/obsess on it endlessly.  This might sound like I’m trying to hard to find positives about working again but holy shit I am not.  Staying busy helped me to get through this period of my life.

It's a real pity he wasn't able to recognize this same need in his ex-wife's struggle with retirement, and instead dismissed it as a shallow, weak need to conform and keep up with the Joneses. I'm glad he found a good therapist and is working on improving his skills communication with his new partner.

Meh. There is clearly a lot of anger and sadness tied up with how his relationship with his ex ended.  I had two good friends who divorced as a result of adultery, and I will say it took the cheated-on person A LONG TIME to let go of the anger.  And, frankly, for all we know, she really was feeling like she wanted to keep up with others in her social group.  Which is a perfectly normal, natural impulse because we are social animals.

Yeah, I know, that's what I'm saying. He didn't notice that he was trying to keep up with others too--he compares himself to other FI bloggers a couple times in that post. Keeping up with the Lees isn't that different than keeping up with the Joneses, you know?  I'm saying I feel bad for him that he didn't have the self-awareness at the time to realize that he and his ex-wife had the same needs, and unfortunately he characterized her needs as being inauthentic and conformist, while his own were independent and more meaningful. That turned out to be false.

Not sure what you mean about anger/sadness, by his own account, he was dismissive of her change of heart before the infidelity.

I'd also love to hear his ex's side of the story. People love to condemn others (especially women) for having extramarital sex, but we'll never really know who is at fault or what goes on in other people's relationships. Notice that she says "I wanted to have kids with you," but apparently they didn't have kids? Although he's planning to have one with the new woman? Got to be a story there.

WhiteTrashCash

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2021, 02:15:47 PM »
I think some people just can’t handle having lots of free time to do whatever they want. It’s sad because that’s actually the natural human condition. Hunter gatherer tribes typically “work” for about two hours a day and then they socialize and enjoy themselves the rest of the time. The majority of Americans have been brainwashed into thinking that their cage is a wonderful thing. Doctor Doom is better off without his ex-wife dragging him down.

2sk22

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2021, 02:27:19 PM »
Reading Dr doom's post again, a couple of things stand out:

1. Purpose: The feeling of being needed by an organization can give a powerful sense of satisfaction that can overcome many of the other problems with a job. Dr Doom's ex lost clearly this sense of purpose after retirement.

2. Goals: When I was working, my goals were generally externally generated by my management chain. After a period of decompression after retirement, I feel that people need endogenously originated goals to keep going. Dr. Doom had his writing but its not clear what his ex's goals were.

Zikoris

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2021, 02:32:31 PM »
It's pretty fucked up that she wanted him to go back to work against his will so they could buy a bunch of stuff he didn't even want. It's one thing if you as an individual want to work and buy things, but holy shit is that ever some next-level entitlement to want someone else to work to buy you things, when that person otherwise does not need to work.

It goes to show how important it is to be on the same page with regards to long term goals and lifestyle preferences.

flyingaway

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2021, 02:34:47 PM »
Does any know how old was or is  Dr. Doom?

Knowing his age might be helpful in understanding many thing happened.

Mmm_Donuts

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2021, 02:40:29 PM »
It's pretty fucked up that she wanted him to go back to work against his will so they could buy a bunch of stuff he didn't even want. It's one thing if you as an individual want to work and buy things, but holy shit is that ever some next-level entitlement to want someone else to work to buy you things, when that person otherwise does not need to work.

It goes to show how important it is to be on the same page with regards to long term goals and lifestyle preferences.

I read it as the wife saying - "What will our friends think, with me being a successful working person, while my husband is bumming around." She didn't want to force him back to work - she just wanted the traditional work more / buy more stuff treadmill to be a team effort. I get it.

It's just too bad she didn't realize sooner, but sometimes things don't work out the way you imagine them to be.

I felt so sad reading the post, and it's not what I really pictured happening to him in the radio silence. I hope thing work out for him and he can retain a sense of meaning and purpose, no matter what he chooses to do.

Does any know how old was or is  Dr. Doom?

Knowing his age might be helpful in understanding many thing happened.

He says he's currently 43.

dividendman

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2021, 02:41:30 PM »
Damn, I don't know why reading that feels like a gut punch for me... weird, it's just unsettling I guess. Yep, anything can happen.

K_in_the_kitchen

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2021, 02:42:50 PM »
She didn't transition to FI. In the end she couldn't establish an identity outside of being a worker-consumer. She gave it plenty of time, and it didn't work for her. She was seeing the fiction everyone else creates about their lives on social media, and her reality didn't measure up because her true values hadn't changed when they became FI. I suspect she didn't receive enough admiration for shedding her worker-consumer identity, admiration she clearly desired. There were no dopamine hits for staying home and cooking instead of going out for dinner-movie-shopping. Living a quiet, non-consumer, out of the rat race life is probably harder in the age of social media and cultural adulation for ostentatious spending.

Or perhaps all of the dissatisfaction, etc. was just internal justification for the infidelity. I suppose it's easy to decide your spouse and the life you've built with them isn't what you want once you've already cheated. Maybe she strayed (even if it was only emotionally at first) and then found ways to justify it by telling herself this was all his dream. The conversations he blogged about summed it up -- if he didn't work he was nothing. She may very well have changed the narrative to feel better about cheating, telling herself that a man who works is far more valuable than a man who doesn't. And he may very well find it easier to think she didn't want the person he became after FIRE rather than thinking it was something else.

flyingaway

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2021, 02:45:52 PM »
It's pretty fucked up that she wanted him to go back to work against his will so they could buy a bunch of stuff he didn't even want. It's one thing if you as an individual want to work and buy things, but holy shit is that ever some next-level entitlement to want someone else to work to buy you things, when that person otherwise does not need to work.

It goes to show how important it is to be on the same page with regards to long term goals and lifestyle preferences.

I read it as the wife saying - "What will our friends think, with me being a successful working person, while my husband is bumming around." She didn't want to force him back to work - she just wanted the traditional work more / buy more stuff treadmill to be a team effort. I get it.

It's just too bad she didn't realize sooner, but sometimes things don't work out the way you imagine them to be.

I felt so sad reading the post, and it's not what I really pictured happening to him in the radio silence. I hope thing work out for him and he can retain a sense of meaning and purpose, no matter what he chooses to do.

Does any know how old was or is  Dr. Doom?

Knowing his age might be helpful in understanding many thing happened.

He says he's currently 43.

OK. As we always say here: Retiring too early, you can correct it.

Frankies Girl

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2021, 02:49:04 PM »
Quote
I also should point out that working helped to reduce my feelings of isolation and loneliness — it gave me something concrete to do, people to interact with, that kind of thing. It provided problems and situations to keep my brain busy in the wake of the split up so I couldn’t ruminate/obsess on it endlessly.  This might sound like I’m trying to hard to find positives about working again but holy shit I am not.  Staying busy helped me to get through this period of my life.

It's a real pity he wasn't able to recognize this same need in his ex-wife's struggle with retirement, and instead dismissed it as a shallow, weak need to conform and keep up with the Joneses. I'm glad he found a good therapist and is working on improving his skills communication with his new partner.

Meh. There is clearly a lot of anger and sadness tied up with how his relationship with his ex ended.  I had two good friends who divorced as a result of adultery, and I will say it took the cheated-on person A LONG TIME to let go of the anger.  And, frankly, for all we know, she really was feeling like she wanted to keep up with others in her social group.  Which is a perfectly normal, natural impulse because we are social animals.

Yeah, I know, that's what I'm saying. He didn't notice that he was trying to keep up with others too--he compares himself to other FI bloggers a couple times in that post. Keeping up with the Lees isn't that different than keeping up with the Joneses, you know?  I'm saying I feel bad for him that he didn't have the self-awareness at the time to realize that he and his ex-wife had the same needs, and unfortunately he characterized her needs as being inauthentic and conformist, while his own were independent and more meaningful. That turned out to be false.

Not sure what you mean about anger/sadness, by his own account, he was dismissive of her change of heart before the infidelity.

I'd also love to hear his ex's side of the story. People love to condemn others (especially women) for having extramarital sex, but we'll never really know who is at fault or what goes on in other people's relationships. Notice that she says "I wanted to have kids with you," but apparently they didn't have kids? Although he's planning to have one with the new woman? Got to be a story there.

The story of why no kids is infertility. He briefly touched on it many many years ago. It likely is very deeply personal and painful. I would hope anyone that is about to jump on this to please reconsider because infertility is fucking awful and can absolutely destroy a person let alone marriage, so there might be some issues with the ex where she may never recover her personhood and have struggled terribly to define herself as she ages.


In any case, there is zero reasons whatsoever to cheat in a marriage. If you're unhappy, deal with it or end the relationship like a grownup if the unhappy is because you're not getting enough attention/sex/wrong kind of sex/whatever - the answer is NEVER "go fuck another person or have an emotional affair." I'm just so sad that she felt that was a viable response for whatever pain/sadness she was unable to reconcile.


I am heartbroken at what Dr Doom has gone through but it does sound like he's moving in the right direction still.

« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 06:02:21 PM by Frankies Girl »

K_in_the_kitchen

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2021, 02:54:44 PM »

I'd also love to hear his ex's side of the story. People love to condemn others (especially women) for having extramarital sex, but we'll never really know who is at fault or what goes on in other people's relationships. Notice that she says "I wanted to have kids with you," but apparently they didn't have kids? Although he's planning to have one with the new woman? Got to be a story there.

I agree. And reading that there were infertility issues, I really doubt the split has much to do with FIRE, and everything to do with communication and other relationship issues. But their agreement was clearly monogamy, so she should have exited the marriage rather than cheating on Dr. Doom and dragging him down. I think she wanted to believe he was "nothing" to justify her behavior to herself.

sui generis

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2021, 03:23:53 PM »
What a roller coaster!  The thing that struck me the most was the surprise that he has the same syndrome Tanja Hester/Our Next Life does, and these two FIRE people are the sum total of the two times I've heard of it.  Pretty wild, and very sad, coincidence.  Having read a few things from TH about expected life spans and QOL, I was extra sad for both of them.

I recognize so much in what he has written. My life, including the financial aspect, would change a lot if my relationship ended as well (I already know exactly how and what I would do, but the point is it is life changing for sure).  Wondering about purpose and isolation.  On the other hand, I've always felt strongly that connections and roots can come from outside a workplace as much as in, and I wonder if his ex would have been more satisfied if she had put down some more roots in new activities and communities (not geographic, but hobby/cultural/volunteer) where she would have had more diverse "Joneses" to keep up with and compare herself to.  By the time they were discussing this and he was suggesting that, it seemed far too late. I do think it's has been critical for me to have done that (even though sometimes I lament I've gone too far and want to pull up some of my roots and be more isolated!) and I even worry if I moved to a new city, state or country, having to do that all over again could be a daunting task.  It's so critical, but it isn't easy.  I do believe we all always need to be building our own communities and relationships.  Staying in the same job forever can fool you about this because the community is provided for you and you may not have to work as hard at it.  Retiring early has actually kept me on my toes about this and I'm hyperaware of cultivating paths for my future and thinking about how things might change out from under me in the next 3-4 decades.  I definitely don't think things will be static nor do they feel that way AT ALL, as his ex seems to have experienced. 

And the projects and networks I've built in my RE can conveniently be framed into a story of "moving" and successes and "going somewhere" for the crowd that just doesn't get early retirement.  I don't love doing it, it feels a bit icky, but it's nice to be able to "speak that language" if I need to and remind myself that it's all about framing and perception for everyone.  There's a lot of comparing their own insides to everyone else's outsides in that blog post.  It's natural with humans, but absolutely devastating. 

GuitarStv

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2021, 03:27:02 PM »
People love to condemn others (especially women) for having extramarital sex, but we'll never really know who is at fault or what goes on in other people's relationships.

People love to condemn others for having extramarital sex because it's a pretty nasty combination of cowardice and violation of trust.

If you want to have sex with someone else - fine.  It's your life, it's your body.  Do what you want.  But have the courage to be honest about it and tell your partner outright what you're going to do.  Don't violate your partner's trust by sneaking around behind their back.  If this results in the end of the relationship - so be it.  That's the choice that you're making.

I've never heard a valid reason for a secret extramarital affair.

slappy

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2021, 03:51:18 PM »
It's pretty fucked up that she wanted him to go back to work against his will so they could buy a bunch of stuff he didn't even want. It's one thing if you as an individual want to work and buy things, but holy shit is that ever some next-level entitlement to want someone else to work to buy you things, when that person otherwise does not need to work.

It goes to show how important it is to be on the same page with regards to long term goals and lifestyle preferences.

I find this very interesting because he noted that she was on the same page with him at first. He said that she was earnestly on board with the plan and he confirmed that with her many times before actually proceeding. What I have found in my marriage over the past ten years, is that being on the same page is not necessarily as important as being able to grow with the person. I never would have imagined my life as it is now, with me as the breadwinner, DH as a SAHP to three kids. But it happened, somewhat due to circumstances outside of our control, and we were able to work through it all together. I think Dr. Doom's story illustrates how people can change. It sounds like he did put forth the effort, but it just didn't work in the end.

slappy

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2021, 03:55:41 PM »
Quote
I also should point out that working helped to reduce my feelings of isolation and loneliness — it gave me something concrete to do, people to interact with, that kind of thing. It provided problems and situations to keep my brain busy in the wake of the split up so I couldn’t ruminate/obsess on it endlessly.  This might sound like I’m trying to hard to find positives about working again but holy shit I am not.  Staying busy helped me to get through this period of my life.

It's a real pity he wasn't able to recognize this same need in his ex-wife's struggle with retirement, and instead dismissed it as a shallow, weak need to conform and keep up with the Joneses. I'm glad he found a good therapist and is working on improving his skills communication with his new partner.

Meh. There is clearly a lot of anger and sadness tied up with how his relationship with his ex ended.  I had two good friends who divorced as a result of adultery, and I will say it took the cheated-on person A LONG TIME to let go of the anger.  And, frankly, for all we know, she really was feeling like she wanted to keep up with others in her social group.  Which is a perfectly normal, natural impulse because we are social animals.  Anyway, we're only ever going to get his side of the story because it's a personal blog--that's kind of the nature of the beast.

And, yes, this is a great read.  A bookmark worthy one.  One I will probably revisit again and again as I get closer to FIRE.  I think it's really helpful to hear someone talk frankly about how stepping way outside the mainstream strains social relationships. It makes all the sense in the world -- if your lifestyle becomes really different than that of your friends / social group, eventually you'll have less in common and you'll grow apart.  But hearing him speak very directly to how lonely FIRE can be and how that growing apart contributed to the end of his relationship is thought provoking.

My dad worked until close to standard retirement age, working for the same company for the last 20 years of his career.  I'm sure there were tough, frustrating days. In fact, he taught me VERY early on that all jobs are a ratio of fun stuff to bullshit and you will never fully eliminate the bullshit but you should try to optimize the fun stuff.  But when he talks about his career, and in particular his retirement party, he absolutely beams with pride. In his personal narrative, the years he spent in his profession are an identity and an achievement worthy of his time. It's also clear to me that since he retired, he has slowed down a lot.  In the first few years he LOVED retirement and had a lot of travel and projects, but since then health issues have caught up with him and my mom, and they just seem to be declining. Some of that's to be expected at their age, some of that's probably Covid isolation, but it does make me wonder if detaching from work contributed to that decline. 

Of course, I'll never know what would have happened if he'd kept working a few more years or if he even wanted to.  Maybe his health would have declined faster.  Maybe he would have really regretted not having those few years of travel and projects.  And maybe they like being slowed down. Or maybe he and my mom have a few more of those years in them.  Who's to say?

But he retired in his late 50s.  I'm on track to retire in my mid 40s. And reading Doom's post and reflecting on my dad's experience makes me wonder if disconnecting from work disconnects you from a whole part of the world and, if you do that too early, that disconnect does more harm than good.  Then again, is puttering away at an unfulfilling job really the best way to spend your days?  Is it worth it just to stay comfortably, securely attached to the hivemind with the attendant compensation and health benefits?

It's something to think about.

I think the disconnect/decline is talked about fairly often, and typically the answer is to find some other sort of fulfillment/way to connect in the community, whether its volunteering, taking classes, etc. In his case, he tried taking classes, but it seems like maybe his depression got in the way a bit too. In my family, people tend to retire and then sit in front of the tv, and the decline is painfully obvious. Not just mentally, but physically as well.

ysette9

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2021, 05:13:44 PM »
Thanks so much for the heads up about this post. Dr Doom is my favorite blogger (hearsay around this forum?) and I’m always interested in how things go with him.

Aethonan

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2021, 05:55:17 PM »
And the projects and networks I've built in my RE can conveniently be framed into a story of "moving" and successes and "going somewhere" for the crowd that just doesn't get early retirement.  I don't love doing it, it feels a bit icky, but it's nice to be able to "speak that language" if I need to and remind myself that it's all about framing and perception for everyone.  There's a lot of comparing their own insides to everyone else's outsides in that blog post.  It's natural with humans, but absolutely devastating. 

This was what I was thinking while reading as well.  A bunch of the things on my post-job list actually tie into the whole extrinsic-validation thing (getting accreditations in hobby sports, etc.).  Makes me wonder if part of what I'm planning for is my own need to be seen by others as "respectable" (whatever the hell that means).  And combining that with something where I can *see* the progress in titles or whatever feels like the SIGN that I'm doing something right.  So maybe I'm a bit more like the ex in that sense, and it was helpful to get Doom's perspective on her experience! 

All that said, the part that hit me was at the end:

Quote
So in the short term, it’s easier to get a check and work the job and focus on my life with my partner instead of the future. I simply no longer see working as a huge impediment to my overall happiness.

And by extension, I no longer see quitting my job and retiring early as the most direct path to bliss.  It was five years ago, but now?

Happiness is not thinking too carefully about the finances.

Happiness is spending as much time as I possibly can with my partner.

Happiness is thinking about growth and joy and changes in the days to come.

There’s no point to Early Retirement if you haven’t properly positioned yourself toward the light of future happiness.


This.  Just this.

Ozlady

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2021, 05:59:31 PM »
Wow!  What a post!

That was some gutful update ...

Just forwarded to my hubby who just retired 2 months ago....

Zikoris

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2021, 06:36:15 PM »
It's pretty fucked up that she wanted him to go back to work against his will so they could buy a bunch of stuff he didn't even want. It's one thing if you as an individual want to work and buy things, but holy shit is that ever some next-level entitlement to want someone else to work to buy you things, when that person otherwise does not need to work.

It goes to show how important it is to be on the same page with regards to long term goals and lifestyle preferences.

I find this very interesting because he noted that she was on the same page with him at first. He said that she was earnestly on board with the plan and he confirmed that with her many times before actually proceeding. What I have found in my marriage over the past ten years, is that being on the same page is not necessarily as important as being able to grow with the person. I never would have imagined my life as it is now, with me as the breadwinner, DH as a SAHP to three kids. But it happened, somewhat due to circumstances outside of our control, and we were able to work through it all together. I think Dr. Doom's story illustrates how people can change. It sounds like he did put forth the effort, but it just didn't work in the end.

I mean, sort of, eventually she was on board, but I remember the earlier days several years ago when he used to post here in the MMM forums talking about the conflicts they had over those issues - and it was very much along the same lines. It looked to me more like she sort of eventually decided to give it a go, but was always hesitant about it to begin with.

I think a lot of it is less about exactly 100% agreeing on everything, and more an issues of shared values, which they clearly did not have. I feel like most people's inherent, deeply-held values do not change substantially over time, and relationships built on a foundation of shared values are much stronger.

Metalcat

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2021, 06:38:01 PM »
I personally feel there is little point in picking over someone's ended marriage to analyze causes.

It's not abnormal for marriages to end. It's a very, very common and even normal thing to happen, especially after a major life change. Also, the main things that keep failing marriages together are: children, and inability to afford divorce. So a no-kids marriage where each partner can afford to move on? That dramatically raises the probability of divorce, not because it makes marriages worse, but because it makes it easier to leave a marriage that isn't working. And there are A LOT of people out there in marriages that aren't working who feel like they can't leave.

I've never read his blog, but from that post and this thread, I'm gleaning that as a couple they dealt with: infertility, the MAJOR lifestyle change of early retirement, feeling alienated from friends,  a very serious and untreatable chronic health diagnosis, untreated mental health issues, communication challenges, a refusal to seek professional counselling, and infidelity. It's actually impressive that they were married as long as they were and sustained what sounds like a pretty decent relationship for most of it.
I would actually call that a success. 

Cheating is a dick move no matter what the circumstances, but he sounds like he's in a much more compatible relationship now, so that's also a success.

IDK, maybe it's just my perspective as someone with a very similar diagnosis, who has been through a lot of similar shit, I didn't read that post with any sort of shock or horror. What I read was an account of someone who started their retirement in the wrong marriage and in the dark about his own health, which is an illness he would have had his entire life. He didn't get sick, he got properly diagnosed after having it forever. And now he's properly diagnosed, in a happier relationship, potentially going to be a father, getting proper mental health care, and neither his illness nor his divorce left him in any real financial trouble. He's voluntarily working to subsidize his spouse's retirement because he can. Love seems to be his main motivator to keep working.

What I read was a happy story where the transition part was hard, because major life transitions usually are hard.
But as I am fond of saying: an absence of difficulty is not what makes a good life. And what this man shared is that he has a good life.

Psychstache

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2021, 06:43:38 PM »

What I read was a happy story where the transition part was hard, because major life transitions usually are hard.
But as I am fond of saying: an absence of difficulty is not what makes a good life. And what this man shared is that he has a good life.

+1

In a similar vein, I often quote Bruce Lee: "Do not pray for an easy life, pray for the strength to endure a difficult one."

FireLane

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2021, 06:47:09 PM »
Thanks for the pointer!

Dr. Doom is one of my favorite FIRE bloggers. His posts have more raw unfiltered honesty and introspection than I've found anywhere else.

I'd been curious for a long time how retirement was working out for him, but after five years of radio silence, I was resigned to never knowing. I assumed it had just become his ordinary existence and he didn't feel the need to write a constant stream of updates about it. Looks like the reality was very different!

My takeaway from his update is that the math of FIRE works as promised. It's the emotional, living-life, finding-purpose side that's both more important and more difficult to master. His ex-wife told him she was on board, and probably she believed it herself at first. But when she actually tried living that way, she felt unmoored and directionless compared to the other people in their social circle.

The other valuable reminder is that you can't predict what fate will throw at you. A rare and expensive medical condition is just the kind of unforeseeable wrench in our FIRE plans that we all fear. But it's really true that our worst-case scenario is everyone else's everyday scenario: he went back to work for the time being, and he seems to be doing just fine. I'm sure those five years of rest and relaxation helped a lot, plus there's the security of knowing he still has a hefty stash to back him up.

I really liked this part:

Quote
If you are yourself working on becoming FI and you have any specific takeaway from this post, let it be this:  You are making future plans based on what your current life looks like. Your current job, your current income, your current partner, your current percentage of savings, your expected market return, your housing costs, your location and so-on. You’re assuming large parts of your life will remain static over the next X years, where, for many early-retiree hopefuls, X is 30+ years, perhaps even fifty.

They may not be static.  It might be a mistake to think that things will be as smooth as you believe they will be. The ability to recover from changes and disruptions — to be adaptable and resilient in the face of adversity — will show itself to be perhaps the most critical skill Early Retirement skill of them all.  I hope sincerely that nothing changes for everyone on this path — that your happiness meter goes up to max and stays there.  But for some small percentage of us, like myself — well.  We will hit bumps in the road, potholes, areas of the street that are flooded out where you need to slow down or even turn around and find another route.  And we will all need to be flexible enough to deal with it. 

Accrual

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2021, 07:03:28 PM »
I have never heard of Dr. Doom or his blog, but read and enjoyed the article. It was an interesting perspective.

My take is that he cares too much about other people's actions - who cares if someone wants to buy a 4,000 sq foot house with a significant mortgage? And then to place yourself on the moral high-ground (in the next sentence) saying, "material things don't matter", is silly; maybe for some, "things" do matter. Others, like Dr. Doom, not so much. Why allow people to take rent in your head? It is a waste of energy.

maisymouser

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2021, 08:16:56 PM »
There sure is a whole lot of talk about Dr. Doom's marriage here, but I feel that this discussion is underplaying the point that Dr. Doom didn't plan on having surprise major medical expenses. I'm glad it worked out for him, but that should be an obvious takeaway for the FIRE community.

I get so tired of blogs and even local forum posts where it's assumed that health problems won't to be a RE calculation gamechanger. I don't know whether or not to feel lucky that I've already locked this into my FIRE plan. I mean, at least it won't be a surprise? Best case scenario, the ACA improves, worst case, I won't retire early or be able to take a few years off.

Cross-posted from another thread I posted on:
Quote
If you or any family member ever ends up with a chronic condition, the medical expenses can easily skyrocket. As for myself, I have no other option than to plan to max out my OOP every year. I recommend other FIRE-seekers plan for the same. I mean, you never know. I was completely young and healthy (early 20s) when I came down with two conditions that will chain me for life to good health insurance with a reasonable OOP maximum. Luckily I am perfectly healthy now, as long as I stay on my $5k+/month medication...

At any rate, I'm so happy he posted to provide a lengthy yet altogether poignant update for us all, and thank you OP for alerting our community- it was a great read tonight.

chevy1956

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2021, 11:08:20 PM »
I've loved the Dr Doom blog for a long time. That post is a good reason why. He spoke honestly and showed exactly how being financially resposible fits into your whole life success. Saving and investing wisely can lead to a lot less stress in your life but there are plenty of things it can't protect you from.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2021, 12:41:06 AM »
I think there is some unnecessary judgment of the wife in this thread - noting that we have not heard her side of the story. It may have been that she is one of those people for whom work or the appearance of work gives much meaning (I am definitely not one of them but I know plenty of smart, genuine people who just love working). Or it may have been that she wasn't happy with their level of lifestyle which I take it was relatively modest. Someone mentioned "going out for dinner-movie-shopping" and while that is something I might only do 3-4 times a year, if my budget fell below the level where I could do it on a whim, I'd be dissatisfied too. If my budget fell below the level where I couldn't make a significant purchase on a whim to please myself, I'd be dissatisfied. Let me repeat that this is not a moral failing.



vand

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2021, 03:58:08 AM »
A good read, and a sobering reminder that many more a financial plan will be wrecked by a change in health and/or circumstances than ever will be by sequence of return risk.

Caoineag

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2021, 06:07:04 AM »
An excellent read and an excellent reminder that life changes do happen. Frankly in a 50 year span, we should all expect some drastic life changes to happen pretty regularly.

DadJokes

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Re: Dr. Doom posted a new blog entry!
« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2021, 06:15:17 AM »
I personally feel there is little point in picking over someone's ended marriage to analyze causes.

I'll disagree. If we can see parts of someone else's life that are similar to ours, then we can hopefully learn from their failures (not sure if that's the best word, but I couldn't think of a better one) and reduce our chances of having a similar fate.

From the way sui generis interpreted it, I can see parallels to my own marriage.

What a roller coaster!  The thing that struck me the most was the surprise that he has the same syndrome Tanja Hester/Our Next Life does, and these two FIRE people are the sum total of the two times I've heard of it.  Pretty wild, and very sad, coincidence.  Having read a few things from TH about expected life spans and QOL, I was extra sad for both of them.

I recognize so much in what he has written. My life, including the financial aspect, would change a lot if my relationship ended as well (I already know exactly how and what I would do, but the point is it is life changing for sure).  Wondering about purpose and isolation.  On the other hand, I've always felt strongly that connections and roots can come from outside a workplace as much as in, and I wonder if his ex would have been more satisfied if she had put down some more roots in new activities and communities (not geographic, but hobby/cultural/volunteer) where she would have had more diverse "Joneses" to keep up with and compare herself to.  By the time they were discussing this and he was suggesting that, it seemed far too late. I do think it's has been critical for me to have done that (even though sometimes I lament I've gone too far and want to pull up some of my roots and be more isolated!) and I even worry if I moved to a new city, state or country, having to do that all over again could be a daunting task.  It's so critical, but it isn't easy.  I do believe we all always need to be building our own communities and relationships.  Staying in the same job forever can fool you about this because the community is provided for you and you may not have to work as hard at it.  Retiring early has actually kept me on my toes about this and I'm hyperaware of cultivating paths for my future and thinking about how things might change out from under me in the next 3-4 decades.  I definitely don't think things will be static nor do they feel that way AT ALL, as his ex seems to have experienced. 

And the projects and networks I've built in my RE can conveniently be framed into a story of "moving" and successes and "going somewhere" for the crowd that just doesn't get early retirement.  I don't love doing it, it feels a bit icky, but it's nice to be able to "speak that language" if I need to and remind myself that it's all about framing and perception for everyone.  There's a lot of comparing their own insides to everyone else's outsides in that blog post.  It's natural with humans, but absolutely devastating.

My wife doesn't have hobbies or friends outside of work. I've attempted to encourage her to find those things, but she just hasn't. If we both just stopped working, I'd have plenty to keep myself occupied, but she wouldn't.

Dr. Doom's post and our subsequent "post-mortem" here have given me a lot to think about and plan for.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!