Author Topic: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?  (Read 13586 times)

prof61820

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Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« on: February 24, 2014, 08:33:18 AM »
Trying to figure this out.  The thought that Obamacare could promote the FIRE lifestyle is very intriguing to my wife and I  (we occasionally flirt with the notion of living a FIRE lifestyle - we both would like to write full time).  We have a 3 year old child and "responsible" jobs that we don't hate but we are now weighing our options as we approach our FIRE number which is 3-5 years away.  I'll be in my early fifties at that point and my wife will be in her mid forties.

Is Obamacare solely based on "wage" income so that if you own your own home out right and have large retirement (or other) investments that you will still be able to obtain subsidies to pay for your family's healthcare as you "retire" early into a job that you love or take some entrepreneurial risks?

Has anyone closely looked at Obamacare as a tool for FIRE folks to retire early and/or developed a strategy for using the program to move into a FIRE lifestyle?
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 08:39:00 AM by prof61820 »

nicknageli

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2014, 08:47:12 AM »
I'd always hoped I would have enough money to retire earlier than 65 when Medicare kicked in, but I didn't know how it would ever happen having to buy private health insurance.  I don't have any guess on the quality of care people will receive under the ACA, but it sure seems like it could be a big game changer.

http://kff.org/interactive/subsidy-calculator/

This calculator estimates the subsidy you may get based on income. 

I believe this FAQ is what will explains "income".  Looks like income is considered your MAGI.

http://kff.org/health-reform/faq/health-reform-frequently-asked-questions/#question-what-income-is-counted-in-determining-my-eligibility-for-premium-tax-credits 

prof61820

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2014, 08:59:32 AM »
Thanks - at first glance it looks like rental income is a part of MAGI.  It's unclear whether capital gains are MAGI?  Are there other streams of income not considered MAGI?  This would be good to know when making pre-FIRE investment decisions in anticipation of moving to Obamacare for FIRE healthcare.

mgreczyn

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2014, 09:09:10 AM »
I would think the game changer would be not how much of a subsidy you can qualify for but rather the simple fact that you can't be locked out of the marketplace for quality coverage just because you are no longer a W-2 employee or you have a pre-existing condition.  We have pre-existing conditions in our household that would make retiring early or quitting to start a business impossible without the ACA, so it's certainly a game-changer for us.

nicknageli

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2014, 09:32:09 AM »
We have pre-existing conditions in our household that would make retiring early or quitting to start a business impossible without the ACA, so it's certainly a game-changer for us.

I assumed that someone with a pre-existing condition could still get private health coverage, but that the premiums would be so high they'd basically be unaffordable.  Are you saying before the ACA passed that a person would be unable to get private health insurance at all, at any price?  You were straight up uninsurable?

nicknageli

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2014, 09:44:53 AM »
To see how MAGI is calculated, you can see this chart from UC Berkeley:

http://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/healthcare/MAGI_summary13.pdf

Thanks for that link.

That PDF shows ordinary dividends are included in your MAGI.  Can someone give me the "Dividends for Dummies" explanation of ordinary versus qualified dividends?

randymarsh

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2014, 09:55:57 AM »
I assumed that someone with a pre-existing condition could still get private health coverage, but that the premiums would be so high they'd basically be unaffordable.  Are you saying before the ACA passed that a person would be unable to get private health insurance at all, at any price?  You were straight up uninsurable?

In the private market, insurers were pretty much free to not issue a policy to anyone that didn't meet their requirements. Sometimes they'd take you, but like you mentioned, the premium would be so high that no one could actually afford it. Or they'd take you, but the policy wouldn't cover anything caused or related to X condition. And of course in many cases the insurer would simply deny you flat out. There are stories of some petty reasons too - like "failing" a BMI measurement. Too skinny? No insurance for you. Too fat? No insurance for you.

Pre-existing condition also doesn't have to be something you currently have. Having cancer at 25 would likely keep you from getting any private policy at 35.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 09:57:41 AM by thefinancialstudent »

prof61820

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2014, 10:10:17 AM »
As far as I can see, the ACA does not have any sort of checks and balances like our other social programs.  Owning a house worth hundreds of thousands of dollars does not disqualify you from receiving subsidies.  Having capital gains of thousands of dollars a year does not disqualify you.  Having tens of thousands of dollars in stocks, bonds, savings accounts, checking accounts, whatever, does not disqualify you.  All they look at is your MAGI.  So long as it is low enough, you can get premium subsidies.  If it is really low (Mustachian-style living/spending), you can get premium subsidies AND cost-sharing subsidies that can result in nearly-free health insurance and actual healthcare.

Thanks for this analysis.  No doubt getting coverage for pre-existing conditions is a giant step forward and our nation is stronger for it because it allows folks to take risks, create jobs and improve their personal quality of life.  However, making insurance "affordable" for those with assets to retire early, cut back to create or to become entrepreneurs is a huge step in the right direction for our nation's small business owners.

I'm not sure that any of the United State's social programs, tax incentives or tax structure takes into account net wealth so it often leads to a gaming of the system by those with more resources.  I suspect that the uber wealthy in the U.S. will resist very vigorously looking at net wealth for tax (and benefit) purposes so I imagine that using MAGI for Obamacare will be around for a while.

Your analysis is how I thought Obamacare applied (and thought too good to be true for my family and situation) - and if it plays out it will be a boon for the FIRE movement and anti-consumerism lifestyle.  Is there anyone offering strategies on how best to position assets and income to make sure a family is best positioned for the ACA? 
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 10:12:35 AM by prof61820 »

nicknageli

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2014, 11:16:52 AM »
Pre-existing condition also doesn't have to be something you currently have. Having cancer at 25 would likely keep you from getting any private policy at 35.

Wow.  That seems so wrong.  : (

foobar

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2014, 11:37:29 AM »
Your MAGI includes pretty much all income ( wages, Capital gains, dividends (both types), business income, muni bond income, rentals,....) and then you have to add some things back in like student loan deductions, untaxed SS, rental losses, and few more. Look at your last years tax return and look at the AGI line. You MAGI is not going to be lower than that.

Thanks - at first glance it looks like rental income is a part of MAGI.  It's unclear whether capital gains are MAGI?  Are there other streams of income not considered MAGI?  This would be good to know when making pre-FIRE investment decisions in anticipation of moving to Obamacare for FIRE healthcare.

Gin1984

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2014, 12:02:08 PM »
Trying to figure this out.  The thought that Obamacare could promote the FIRE lifestyle is very intriguing to my wife and I  (we occasionally flirt with the notion of living a FIRE lifestyle - we both would like to write full time).  We have a 3 year old child and "responsible" jobs that we don't hate but we are now weighing our options as we approach our FIRE number which is 3-5 years away.  I'll be in my early fifties at that point and my wife will be in her mid forties.

Is Obamacare solely based on "wage" income so that if you own your own home out right and have large retirement (or other) investments that you will still be able to obtain subsidies to pay for your family's healthcare as you "retire" early into a job that you love or take some entrepreneurial risks?

Has anyone closely looked at Obamacare as a tool for FIRE folks to retire early and/or developed a strategy for using the program to move into a FIRE lifestyle?
My mom retired about five years early because she could afford to, but had kept her job because she was uninsurable.  It benefitted her, even without the subsidy.

rocksinmyhead

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2014, 12:14:10 PM »
Trying to figure this out.  The thought that Obamacare could promote the FIRE lifestyle is very intriguing to my wife and I  (we occasionally flirt with the notion of living a FIRE lifestyle - we both would like to write full time).  We have a 3 year old child and "responsible" jobs that we don't hate but we are now weighing our options as we approach our FIRE number which is 3-5 years away.  I'll be in my early fifties at that point and my wife will be in her mid forties.

Is Obamacare solely based on "wage" income so that if you own your own home out right and have large retirement (or other) investments that you will still be able to obtain subsidies to pay for your family's healthcare as you "retire" early into a job that you love or take some entrepreneurial risks?

Has anyone closely looked at Obamacare as a tool for FIRE folks to retire early and/or developed a strategy for using the program to move into a FIRE lifestyle?
My mom retired about five years early because she could afford to, but had kept her job because she was uninsurable.  It benefitted her, even without the subsidy.

yep, I believe this was the case with my friend's parents too. I think this aspect of it is really great.

Gin1984

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2014, 12:20:55 PM »
I assumed that someone with a pre-existing condition could still get private health coverage, but that the premiums would be so high they'd basically be unaffordable.  Are you saying before the ACA passed that a person would be unable to get private health insurance at all, at any price?  You were straight up uninsurable?

In the private market, insurers were pretty much free to not issue a policy to anyone that didn't meet their requirements. Sometimes they'd take you, but like you mentioned, the premium would be so high that no one could actually afford it. Or they'd take you, but the policy wouldn't cover anything caused or related to X condition. And of course in many cases the insurer would simply deny you flat out. There are stories of some petty reasons too - like "failing" a BMI measurement. Too skinny? No insurance for you. Too fat? No insurance for you.

Pre-existing condition also doesn't have to be something you currently have. Having cancer at 25 would likely keep you from getting any private policy at 35.
It does not even have to be anything like cancer.  I hurt my neck working as a server and going school and locked the muscle.  It took some meds, physical therapy and some massage to fix it. I later applied to the same insurance company under a high deductible plan, they would not take me for ANY price.

ShortInSeattle

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2014, 12:33:32 PM »
I would think the game changer would be not how much of a subsidy you can qualify for but rather the simple fact that you can't be locked out of the marketplace for quality coverage just because you are no longer a W-2 employee or you have a pre-existing condition.  We have pre-existing conditions in our household that would make retiring early or quitting to start a business impossible without the ACA, so it's certainly a game-changer for us.

+100

Agreed. Subsidy aside, knowing that I can purchase health insurance without being denied is what makes the difference. My health issues are very minor but in the past pretty much any health issue would get you denied or priced out.

Without the ACA we would have been forced to work just for insurance, even if we didn't need the money. Now we won't. That's huge for us, and it means the job we would have taken is now free for someone who really needs it.

People will know they can retire, switch jobs, work part time, start a business - and still get insurance. I think it's a game changer.

mollyjade

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2014, 01:09:07 PM »
I would think the game changer would be not how much of a subsidy you can qualify for but rather the simple fact that you can't be locked out of the marketplace for quality coverage just because you are no longer a W-2 employee or you have a pre-existing condition.  We have pre-existing conditions in our household that would make retiring early or quitting to start a business impossible without the ACA, so it's certainly a game-changer for us.

+100

Agreed. Subsidy aside, knowing that I can purchase health insurance without being denied is what makes the difference. My health issues are very minor but in the past pretty much any health issue would get you denied or priced out.

Without the ACA we would have been forced to work just for insurance, even if we didn't need the money. Now we won't. That's huge for us, and it means the job we would have taken is now free for someone who really needs it.

People will know they can retire, switch jobs, work part time, start a business - and still get insurance. I think it's a game changer.
A preexisting condition has been a huge part of most of my major life decisions in the past, including where I work (a large company or for the government) and when I got married (to have access to husband/fiance's insurance while I moved to his city and looked for a job).

My joke is that the preexisting condition part of the ACA means I'm married to my husband now because I want to be and not because I have to.

nicknageli

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2014, 01:13:08 PM »
My joke is that the preexisting condition part of the ACA means I'm married to my husband now because I want to be and not because I have to.

Good one! 

prof61820

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2014, 01:50:47 PM »
There's one big exception to this that should be mentioned here, particularly for asset affluent Mustachians. If you're over 55 and have an income so low that you  qualify for Medicaid, your estate will be subject to the clawback provision, meaning that the government gets dibs on any assets you have accumulated after your death, until the expense of providing your medical care is covered. This can include not only costs of providing direct care, but fees to a company to manage your Medicaid, amounting to thousands of dollars. This is after you're dead, but it should be taken into account.

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2022469957_medicaidrecoveryxml.html

I'm told that one strategy for dealing with this Medicaid problem is to obtain a limited long term care policy that runs for 5 years.  The premiums will be smaller because the policy is for a finite number of  years and the 5 year time frame gives you enough time to deal with those pesky 5 year Medicaid claw back rules that will decimate middle class inheritance for those that do not prepare by creating trusts or transferring assets.

prof61820

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2014, 01:52:46 PM »
Mr. Knaack, my hat is off to you!

mgreczyn

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2014, 03:25:16 PM »
We have pre-existing conditions in our household that would make retiring early or quitting to start a business impossible without the ACA, so it's certainly a game-changer for us.

I assumed that someone with a pre-existing condition could still get private health coverage, but that the premiums would be so high they'd basically be unaffordable.  Are you saying before the ACA passed that a person would be unable to get private health insurance at all, at any price?  You were straight up uninsurable?
Impossible maybe is the wrong word.  "So expensive I wouldn't do it unless I had millions of $$" possibly more accurate.  Functionally, there's not much daylight between those two.  I'm guessing nobody is "straight up un-insurable".  I've never shopped for private insurance, but my assumption is that they look(ed) at your pre-existing conditions, set those aside and then offered you a policy covering a basket of non-pre-existing stuff that is actuarial-y determined to be have a lower expected claims payout than you will pay in premiums.  For us, the out of pocket costs to cover our own pre-existing conditions would amount to a 5 digit annual out of pocket expense indefinitely.

mgreczyn

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2014, 03:27:48 PM »
Trying to figure this out.  The thought that Obamacare could promote the FIRE lifestyle is very intriguing to my wife and I  (we occasionally flirt with the notion of living a FIRE lifestyle - we both would like to write full time).  We have a 3 year old child and "responsible" jobs that we don't hate but we are now weighing our options as we approach our FIRE number which is 3-5 years away.  I'll be in my early fifties at that point and my wife will be in her mid forties.

Is Obamacare solely based on "wage" income so that if you own your own home out right and have large retirement (or other) investments that you will still be able to obtain subsidies to pay for your family's healthcare as you "retire" early into a job that you love or take some entrepreneurial risks?

Has anyone closely looked at Obamacare as a tool for FIRE folks to retire early and/or developed a strategy for using the program to move into a FIRE lifestyle?
My mom retired about five years early because she could afford to, but had kept her job because she was uninsurable.  It benefitted her, even without the subsidy.

yep, I believe this was the case with my friend's parents too. I think this aspect of it is really great.
See!  See! Two jobs destroyed by Obamacare right there!!

RootofGood

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2014, 03:31:50 PM »
I would answer yes to both.  It will let my parents retire before 65.  My dad has a serious pre-existing condition and could find it hard to even get insurance outside the high risk pool ($20k+/yr for craptacular coverage??).  Now they can get coverage, and even without subsidies it would be cheaper, guaranteed issue, and not subject to underwriting or exclude pre-existing conditions. 

If I had obamacare a few years ago, I very well may have gone out on my own venture with a partner.  I didn't since health insurance was a big question mark. 

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2014, 04:32:00 PM »
As far as I can see, the ACA does not have any sort of checks and balances like our other social programs.  Owning a house worth hundreds of thousands of dollars does not disqualify you from receiving subsidies.  Having capital gains of thousands of dollars a year does not disqualify you.  Having tens of thousands of dollars in stocks, bonds, savings accounts, checking accounts, whatever, does not disqualify you.  All they look at is your MAGI.  So long as it is low enough, you can get premium subsidies.  If it is really low (Mustachian-style living/spending), you can get premium subsidies AND cost-sharing subsidies that can result in nearly-free health insurance and actual healthcare.

To see how MAGI is calculated, you can see this chart from UC Berkeley:

http://laborcenter.berkeley.edu/healthcare/MAGI_summary13.pdf

Your link says it includes capital gains

Gin1984

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2014, 09:56:36 PM »
We have pre-existing conditions in our household that would make retiring early or quitting to start a business impossible without the ACA, so it's certainly a game-changer for us.

I assumed that someone with a pre-existing condition could still get private health coverage, but that the premiums would be so high they'd basically be unaffordable.  Are you saying before the ACA passed that a person would be unable to get private health insurance at all, at any price?  You were straight up uninsurable?
Impossible maybe is the wrong word.  "So expensive I wouldn't do it unless I had millions of $$" possibly more accurate.  Functionally, there's not much daylight between those two.  I'm guessing nobody is "straight up un-insurable".  I've never shopped for private insurance, but my assumption is that they look(ed) at your pre-existing conditions, set those aside and then offered you a policy covering a basket of non-pre-existing stuff that is actuarial-y determined to be have a lower expected claims payout than you will pay in premiums.  For us, the out of pocket costs to cover our own pre-existing conditions would amount to a 5 digit annual out of pocket expense indefinitely.
I was straight up uninsurable because of a muscle issue.  It was not even an expensive issue either and I had not been treated for it in over a year.  I tried multiples of plans, multiples of insurance companies and no one would cover me for any cost.  I ended up COBRAing until I got benefits.

foobar

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2014, 07:28:11 AM »
You points in general are right but the details are off a bit.

-IRAs contributions count towards MAGI for example.
-If you company only makes 40k and pays it out to you as salary, they don't have any money left to do a company match. You would need to drop the salary to 32k and only get ~8k match.
-employment taxes not federal are what low income people pay. Paying 3k in taxes out of your 12.5k living expenses is going to be rough.

And I can't even imagine how your buying a home of any type with those income levels and no post tax savings:)


But the general points stand. For low income people or people with health problems, ACA is a huge win. And couples in the US making less than 100k  don't really pay income taxes unless they want to.

I'm not sure that any of the United State's social programs, tax incentives or tax structure takes into account net wealth so it often leads to a gaming of the system by those with more resources.  I suspect that the uber wealthy in the U.S. will resist very vigorously looking at net wealth for tax (and benefit) purposes so I imagine that using MAGI for Obamacare will be around for a while.

Most other social programs are based off gross income and/or have other strict limitations.  For example, to receive food stamps "[h]ouseholds may have $2,000 in countable resources, such as a bank account, or $3250 in countable resources if at least one person is age 60 or older, or is disabled."

For Section 8 housing, qualification is based on gross income instead of MAGI: "Eligibility for a housing voucher is determined by the PHA based on the total annual gross income and family size..."  Much harder to game gross income than MAGI.  Sure, you can do so illegally (getting paid under the table), but with the ACA you can get some pretty big subsidies simply by following the law.

However, making insurance "affordable" for those with assets to retire early, cut back to create or to become entrepreneurs is a huge step in the right direction for our nation's small business owners.

Small business owners can get some massive subsidies if they play their cards right.  Let's say a guy (or gal, of course) finishes college and stays true to his Mustachian ways by renting a room and keeping his costs under control ($1,000/mo) because he wants to FIRE ASAP.  He sets up an LLC and has it taxed as an S-Corp.  His first year out as a freelancer he makes $40,000.  He set up his Individual 401k right away, so he puts in $10,000 as the employer (25% of compensation max) and $17,500 as the employee.  That knocks his MAGI down to $12,500.  At that level, he qualifies for premium subsidies AND cost-sharing subsidies.  I just pulled up my state (Utah) information on healthcare.gov.  Sure, he can get a catastrophic plan since he's in his 20s, but why bother?  Let's get a "beyond-Platinum" plan instead -- for even less!  The Silver plan is the qualified plan for cost-sharing subsidies.  He can get a plan for $19/mo, $0 deductible, 6% coinsurance, $500 max out of pocket per year, $5/$75 copays, and $5 generic prescriptions.  Not too shabby.  And his taxes for the year?  A whopping $112 for federal*.  For simplicity's sake, we'll say he lives in a state with no income tax.

The next year he does a little better as he builds up his clientele, making $50,000.  He also meets the girl of his dreams and she's on board with the Mustachian way of life.  (Hey, she doesn't even mind that he doesn't have his own place!)  This year he maxes out his 401k again.  $12,500 to the 401k as the employer (again, 25%), $17,500 as the employee, and he has even more to save, so he sets aside the full $5,500 limit in a Traditional IRA.  His taxable income this year is $14,500 (saved $35,500).  Darn it, now instead of $19/mo, he has to pay $22/mo for the same insurance plan.  $453 for federal taxes.  Life must be rough.

The next year he gets married and moves out of his rented room into a one-bedroom apartment.  She has the same sort of spending that he does.  They split the costs of the living expenses, so their individual expenses don't go up very much.  Just because this is getting long and I really should be working right now, let's speed it up a bit.

It's three years later and they have two kids while living in a nice little townhouse.  Their costs are up to $2,500/mo, she is a SAHM, and he is now making $90,000/yr.  She helps out in the business and gets paid a salary.  Imagine that -- she gets paid enough to fully fund her 401k!  Gross income for the two is $90k, expenses are $30k.  Let's see if we can get the MAGI to "hide" that remaining $60k.  Employer contributions for the two of them work out to $22,500.  Employee contributions of $17,500 each for a total of $35,000.  We're up to $57,500 for 401ks.  And since they aren't over the max income for Traditional IRAs, they can finish out the remaining $2,500 in a TIRA.  With a MAGI of $30k, their family's health insurance through the exchange is $44/mo, $0 deductible, $500 max out of pocket per individual/$1000 max out of pocket for the family.  Their federal tax bill due is -- wait, it's a $2,826 refund.  Gotta love those refundable child tax credits!  So, the family gets to have full insurance for $44/mo, plus $2,826 in tax credits.  $44 * 12 = $528 + $1,000 max out of pocket = $1,528.  So even if they had to max out their insurance for the year, they would still be $1,298 ahead on their tax refund.  And if they have a healthy year where they only pay premiums?  They can have "free" premiums plus go on a $2,300 vacation, all courtesy of Uncle Sam.

So yes, I would say for some small business owners, health insurance will absolutely be "affordable."

* Tax calculations above were done using TurboTax TaxCaster and assuming the standard exemptions and deductions (and child tax credits for the last example).  Feel free to double check my numbers and let me know if I made any mistakes.

foobar

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2014, 11:13:37 AM »
Pretty much all of these choices have ramifications. For example doing the tIRA versus ROTH. You get some tax savings now AND maybe more ACA. On the other hand when your retired in 20 years, when that money comes out it is going to reduce your ACA and potentially make you pay taxes on SS.  Is it better to pay now or pay later? Is buying that house now worth the short term hit in order not to pay 5% rent increases for the next 40 years? The answer is who knows:)

None of this changes how awesome ACA is. People that never bought insurance on the private market don't understand what a nightmare it was. ACA does making figuring out the optimal path a lot harder though.

You points in general are right but the details are off a bit.

-IRAs contributions count towards MAGI for example.
-If you company only makes 40k and pays it out to you as salary, they don't have any money left to do a company match. You would need to drop the salary to 32k and only get ~8k match.
-employment taxes not federal are what low income people pay. Paying 3k in taxes out of your 12.5k living expenses is going to be rough.

And I can't even imagine how your buying a home of any type with those income levels and no post tax savings:)


But the general points stand. For low income people or people with health problems, ACA is a huge win. And couples in the US making less than 100k  don't really pay income taxes unless they want to.

Thanks for the feedback.

Now that I look at the IRA information again on that PDF, it is "Deduct" the "IRA deduction."  So, I guess that means to add back in the IRA contribution.  I was reading that as deduct the IRA contribution.

You are correct about the company match and payroll taxes.  There needs to be room to account for those.  It is still possible to get the MAGI down, but it would be less going into the 401ks in order to maintain enough income for living expenses.  The main thing is to push your income down below 250% of the Federal Poverty Level (FPL) for your family.  Below 400% starts the premium subsidies.  Below 250% starts the cost-sharing subsidies.  Both get more and more subsidies as you get closer to 100% FPL, then Medicaid kicks in at different levels depending on if your state has expanded Medicaid or not.  The biggest subsidies are available if you have a MAGI under 150% FPL.

As a business owner, you need to determine how much you want as wages (W2 income) and as shareholder distributions (K1 income).  In my S-Corp, we make sure to pay "reasonable employee compensation" so the IRS is happy, but then excess funds are paid out through distributions, which aren't hit with payroll taxes.  Unfortunately since they aren't wages, they aren't available for 401k contributions.  So, it's a bit of a tradeoff there.  Do you want higher wages to boost the possible 401k contributions, or lower wages so you can take shareholder distributions and not pay payroll taxes?  Just make sure you always play by the IRS' rules when it comes to compensation.

As for buying a home, I suppose it depends on if they really want to do that at all.  I own my house free-and-clear, but there are certainly some good arguments for renting as well.  The ACA of course gives a good reason to own too: if you own your house and have the mortgage paid off, your expenses are that much lower, so you can push your income down even more.

But, saving extra money for a down payment on a house could be heavily penalized now.  You not only pay federal/state/payroll taxes on that amount, but what if it bumps you out of receiving subsidies?  Not good.  Say the family in my example wants to save another $20,000 as taxable income so they can save for a down payment.  They certainly have the income to do so, so why not?  This changes their taxable income from $30,000 to $50,000.  Unfortunately that puts them at 212% FPL.  Say goodbye to the best cost-sharing and premium subsidies.  For the same Silver plan, their insurance goes from a $44/mo premium, $0 deductible, and $1000 max out of pocket to a $270/mo premium, $6,000 deductible, and $9,000 max out of pocket.  Best case scenario (no using their insurance at all) is $2,712 extra in premiums for the year.  Worst case scenario (max out their expenses) is $10,712 extra -- all for having $20,000 more in taxable income.  And these numbers don't include the extra income taxes on that $20,000.  So, perhaps purchasing a house now with the ACA isn't such a wise idea?  That, or it has to be done in very small increments so you don't push your taxable income too high.  Or perhaps it is better to get the FHA loan with 3.5% down instead of the conventional 20% down?  But then you have to pay PMI.  Hmmm...

goatmom

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2014, 01:12:00 PM »
Well, I am not sure how some of the ACA will work.  My dh just got out of the army and got a great job due to his experience and education.  We still have some young kids at home.  Does he work and therefore fund all the people getting subsidies and from what I understand also pay taxes come 2017 on our "cadillac" healthcare plan?  Or should we both retire now, use tricare, and get financial aid for college for the kiddos? It seems, at least in our circumstance, to not make sense to work.  But who will pay for it all?

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2014, 02:11:25 PM »
Well, I am not sure how some of the ACA will work.  My dh just got out of the army and got a great job due to his experience and education.  We still have some young kids at home.  Does he work and therefore fund all the people getting subsidies and from what I understand also pay taxes come 2017 on our "cadillac" healthcare plan?  Or should we both retire now, use tricare, and get financial aid for college for the kiddos? It seems, at least in our circumstance, to not make sense to work.  But who will pay for it all?

It seems straight forward in your individual situation.  Work for as long as the benefits of work exceed the detriments of work.  If 2017 rolls around and your family  faces a tax bill on your cadillac plan that makes working no longer worthwhile, cease work and retire. 

I imagine obamacare will be funded similarly to the tricare that your husband will receive from the government.  The costs are paid by the taxpayers.

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2014, 02:46:11 PM »
You points in general are right but the details are off a bit.

-IRAs contributions count towards MAGI for example.
-If you company only makes 40k and pays it out to you as salary, they don't have any money left to do a company match. You would need to drop the salary to 32k and only get ~8k match.
-employment taxes not federal are what low income people pay. Paying 3k in taxes out of your 12.5k living expenses is going to be rough.

And I can't even imagine how your buying a home of any type with those income levels and no post tax savings:)


But the general points stand. For low income people or people with health problems, ACA is a huge win. And couples in the US making less than 100k  don't really pay income taxes unless they want to.

Thanks for the feedback.

Now that I look at the IRA information again on that PDF, it is "Deduct" the "IRA deduction."  So, I guess that means to add back in the IRA contribution.  I was reading that as deduct the IRA contribution.

You are correct about the company match and payroll taxes.  There needs to be room to account for those.  It is still possible to get the MAGI down, but it would be less going into the 401ks in order to maintain enough income for living expenses.  The main thing is to push your income down below 250% of the Federal Poverty Level (FPL) for your family.  Below 400% starts the premium subsidies.  Below 250% starts the cost-sharing subsidies.  Both get more and more subsidies as you get closer to 100% FPL, then Medicaid kicks in at different levels depending on if your state has expanded Medicaid or not.  The biggest subsidies are available if you have a MAGI under 150% FPL.

As a business owner, you need to determine how much you want as wages (W2 income) and as shareholder distributions (K1 income).  In my S-Corp, we make sure to pay "reasonable employee compensation" so the IRS is happy, but then excess funds are paid out through distributions, which aren't hit with payroll taxes.  Unfortunately since they aren't wages, they aren't available for 401k contributions.  So, it's a bit of a tradeoff there.  Do you want higher wages to boost the possible 401k contributions, or lower wages so you can take shareholder distributions and not pay payroll taxes?  Just make sure you always play by the IRS' rules when it comes to compensation.

As for buying a home, I suppose it depends on if they really want to do that at all.  I own my house free-and-clear, but there are certainly some good arguments for renting as well.  The ACA of course gives a good reason to own too: if you own your house and have the mortgage paid off, your expenses are that much lower, so you can push your income down even more.

But, saving extra money for a down payment on a house could be heavily penalized now.  You not only pay federal/state/payroll taxes on that amount, but what if it bumps you out of receiving subsidies?  Not good.  Say the family in my example wants to save another $20,000 as taxable income so they can save for a down payment.  They certainly have the income to do so, so why not?  This changes their taxable income from $30,000 to $50,000.  Unfortunately that puts them at 212% FPL.  Say goodbye to the best cost-sharing and premium subsidies.  For the same Silver plan, their insurance goes from a $44/mo premium, $0 deductible, and $1000 max out of pocket to a $270/mo premium, $6,000 deductible, and $9,000 max out of pocket.  Best case scenario (no using their insurance at all) is $2,712 extra in premiums for the year.  Worst case scenario (max out their expenses) is $10,712 extra -- all for having $20,000 more in taxable income.  And these numbers don't include the extra income taxes on that $20,000.  So, perhaps purchasing a house now with the ACA isn't such a wise idea?  That, or it has to be done in very small increments so you don't push your taxable income too high.  Or perhaps it is better to get the FHA loan with 3.5% down instead of the conventional 20% down?  But then you have to pay PMI.  Hmmm...
Why do you think saving money will be penalized?  Increasing your salary, without insurance, may cause a penalty, but just savings, where do you get that?

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2014, 02:56:46 PM »
Anyone know if you can pay your ACA premiums out of your HSA?  Are the ACA premiums paid monthly or just at tax time?  Thanks.

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2014, 03:04:15 PM »
No the only Insurance premiums you can pay out of a HSA are cobra premiums

Iron Mike Sharpe

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2014, 03:09:56 PM »
Not a lot of meat here, but at least CNN acknowledges the advantage of retiring early.

http://money.cnn.com/2014/02/25/news/economy/obamacare-job/index.html?source=cnn_bin

Lots of complainypants-ness in the comments.

PeachFuzzInVA

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2014, 05:19:15 PM »
I've priced private health insurance at least once a year for the past 10 years. Before the ACA went into effect, I could afford private health insurance. The price, for me, has over doubled since then and the deductible has gone up by 700%. For someone in my situation, the ACA makes health insurance unaffordable. I am going to be crossing my fingers this year and hoping I don't have any major catastrophes. I'll wind up paying the fine at the end of the year.

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2014, 06:19:30 PM »
I've priced private health insurance at least once a year for the past 10 years. Before the ACA went into effect, I could afford private health insurance. The price, for me, has over doubled since then and the deductible has gone up by 700%. For someone in my situation, the ACA makes health insurance unaffordable. I am going to be crossing my fingers this year and hoping I don't have any major catastrophes. I'll wind up paying the fine at the end of the year.
Did you ever actually apply?  I know very few that got approved and even then, the price was higher than the original quote.  Some people I assume are lucky enough to get that price, so you might be one.  I just wonder if you know.

goatmom

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2014, 07:31:45 PM »
Well, Tricare is funded by the taxpayer, but i feel like we've earned it.

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #34 on: February 25, 2014, 07:41:48 PM »
Mine has gone down ~10% for the same coverage (actually slight better as I get kid dental care thrown in). I am guessing that if yours doubled you were looking at vastly different coverage levels.

I've priced private health insurance at least once a year for the past 10 years. Before the ACA went into effect, I could afford private health insurance. The price, for me, has over doubled since then and the deductible has gone up by 700%. For someone in my situation, the ACA makes health insurance unaffordable. I am going to be crossing my fingers this year and hoping I don't have any major catastrophes. I'll wind up paying the fine at the end of the year.

TreeTired

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #35 on: February 25, 2014, 08:45:17 PM »
Here is a case study:   Me.

My last and final job ended in 2007, when I was 54.  My wife and I moved form NJ to NC and I paid $1200/month for COBRA until it ran out, then much to my surprise found very good private health insurance for $900/mo with Blue Cross Blue Shield of NC (yes, I wondered why I hung on to COBRA for so long.  ignorance and fear)  Our premiums were going up to over $1000 for 2013, so we increased our deductible (from $2000 to $3000) and coinsurance (from 20% to 30%) and our premium dropped to $680 for 2013.  We were very happy with this insurance.  The deductible only came into play for hospital stays and we have been healthy and have not been in the hospital. We had quite a bit of medical care including colonoscopy and skin surgery (removed several basal cell carcinomas with Mos surgery) where I only paid a $25 or $35 copay.

So then the ACA came into play and our policy was cancelled for 2014, but then it was uncancelled and our premium for 2014 would have been $950/month.    On the exchange, an ACA compliant policy equivalent to what we had in 2013 has a list price of $1550 per month, but based on my estimated 2014 MAGI of $30,000 we are paying $309 per month.   I didn't write the law.  I was happy with my old insurance, but I am not going to apologize for benefiting from the new law.

I certainly want to have enough income to be eligible for subsidies.  If we had close to zero income we would not be eligible for subsidies and in NC we would not be eligible for Medicaid either.  The lowest income folks in non-Medicaid expansion states are really getting screwed.

I can manage my MAGI pretty easily with Roth IRA conversions.  If I need more income, I do a Roth IRA conversion.   My savings are split about 60/40 in retirement/nonretirement accounts.  I have relatively high cash balances so I am not making a lot in dividend and interest income.

I have wondered why there is no means test in the ACA for calculation of subsidy eligibility.  I finally decided they either didn't think about it (most likely) or they did think about it and figured out that it wasn't worth the trouble of screening out the folks with lots of assets but not enough to generate disqualifying levels of income.   If I had $5mm in nonretirement assets it would be very difficult to NOT generate MAGI of $100,000 or more per year.

The main impact that I expect  (there could be many unanticipated consequences - I am nervous!)  is that I will not do any Roth IRA conversions in 2014 because that will only reduce my ACA subsidy....er, I mean,  "tax credit."     It is generally recognized that the ACA is a boon to early retirees.  I know many people in their 50s who have a decent amount of savings and do not like their jobs and are really only working to keep their health insurance.   

foobar

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #36 on: February 25, 2014, 08:58:22 PM »
It would have required a ton more infrastructure work. The IRS knows how much you make. They don't know how much you have in various investment accounts, real estate, life insurance policies, and so on.   Now why they don't add 401(k) contributions back in on the other hand looks like a pure oversight to me.



I have wondered why there is no means test in the ACA for calculation of subsidy eligibility.  I finally decided they either didn't think about it (most likely) or they did think about it and figured out that it wasn't worth the trouble of screening out the folks with lots of assets but not enough to generate disqualifying levels of income.   If I had $5mm in nonretirement assets it would be very difficult to NOT generate MAGI of $100,000 or more per year.
 

nicknageli

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #37 on: February 25, 2014, 09:19:54 PM »
Great example, NC_MJ.  Thanks for sharing. 

PeachFuzzInVA

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2014, 04:46:42 AM »
Mine has gone down ~10% for the same coverage (actually slight better as I get kid dental care thrown in). I am guessing that if yours doubled you were looking at vastly different coverage levels.

I've priced private health insurance at least once a year for the past 10 years. Before the ACA went into effect, I could afford private health insurance. The price, for me, has over doubled since then and the deductible has gone up by 700%. For someone in my situation, the ACA makes health insurance unaffordable. I am going to be crossing my fingers this year and hoping I don't have any major catastrophes. I'll wind up paying the fine at the end of the year.

What I was able to afford before the ACA was similar coverage at a lower deductible and lower price. I'm young and healthy. The ACA wasn't designed with me in mind and my income is too high to qualify for a subsidy.

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2014, 08:14:53 AM »
I have wondered why there is no means test in the ACA for calculation of subsidy eligibility.  I finally decided they either didn't think about it (most likely) or they did think about it and figured out that it wasn't worth the trouble of screening out the folks with lots of assets but not enough to generate disqualifying levels of income.   If I had $5mm in nonretirement assets it would be very difficult to NOT generate MAGI of $100,000 or more per year.

Given the billions spent on subsidies, it would definitely be worth it to have some form of screening, even if it was laxly enforced self-disclosure requirements.  There's already a decent regulatory framework for asset means testing in the medicaid eligibility guidelines.  Or they could use the earned income credit's investment income test ($3351+ investment income = you don't get a credit) if they only wanted to focus on income. 

My gut feeling (without researching the question of legislative intent through the pages of the Federal Register or other sources) is that ACA was intended to provide insurance to everyone, and to make subsidies broadly available to the lower and middle classes and portions of the upper middle class (ie families with kids).  I don't think they wanted to exclude the 50 year old retired ditch digger with a slightly higher than poverty level municipal pension payment or modest IRA withdrawals.    Or a set of 60 year old parents that retired with kids still in the house. 

Obamacare, like many other "government benefits", isn't a low income welfare program.  It stretches way into the middle and parts of the upper middle class and does a pretty good job of extending health insurance to anyone who wants it (but not always without cost).

NC_MJ - I think you nailed it.  It's unlikely a rich fat cat with 5 MM in non-retirement assets would get a massive ACA subsidy.  Intermediate bonds or equity investments pay more than that right now (ignoring any tax inefficiencies like cap gains).  There's enough mere millionaire retirees with 1-2 million in assets and/or a modest pension that I don't think they intended to exclude those individuals from ACA coverage.  And I bet part of the rationale is to encourage those same "modestly wealthy" people into supporting ACA or not protesting too loudly. 


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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #40 on: February 26, 2014, 12:06:38 PM »
I've priced private health insurance at least once a year for the past 10 years. Before the ACA went into effect, I could afford private health insurance. The price, for me, has over doubled since then and the deductible has gone up by 700%. For someone in my situation, the ACA makes health insurance unaffordable. I am going to be crossing my fingers this year and hoping I don't have any major catastrophes. I'll wind up paying the fine at the end of the year.

One aspect of health insurance pricing that seems to go unheeded in many discussions of health care is that as you age, your individual health insurance premiums go up due to older individuals having higher claims than younger individuals. When we use anecdotal evidence of our historic personal health insurance premiums, we are not controlling for this yearly increase. In fact, the Center for Medicaid and Medicare published age factors for pricing health insurance on the 2014 exchanges with the following unisex age factors for individuals between 22 and 32:

22    1
23    1
24    1
25    1.004
26    1.024
27    1.048
28    1.087
29    1.119
30    1.135
31    1.159
32    1.183

So, under the 2014 rating rules, a 26-year-old pays about 2.4% more in premiums than a 22-year-old for the same plan. A 32-year-old pays about 18.3% more in premiums than a 22-year-old for the same plan. So, if 2014 rating rules had been in place when you were 22, then an 18.3% increase in premiums over the past 10 years would be expected simply as a result of you being older and riskier to insure. However, since ACA guidelines have changed quite a lot in the pricing of individual plans for 2014, we need to consider a few other factors to explain the exorbitant premium increases that you have experienced.
 
I am going to make the assumption that you are male, and I’ll tell you why. The ACA introduced new rating guidelines in which unisex factors must be used to rate individuals. The consequence of this is that females no longer solely bear the very expensive burden of pregnancy costs in their health insurance premiums. Health insurance premiums for young adult males have gone up under the new rules while health insurance premiums for young adult females have gone down under the new rules. Since the 18.3% increase quoted above was based on unisex rating at age 22 instead of male-only rating, your observed increase is expected to be much higher.
 
Additionally, ACA mandated that premiums for any age group be capped at three times the rate for 21-year-olds. The unisex medical costs curve would generally imply about five times higher rates for a 64-year-old relative to a 21-year-old. Since the mandated ratio is smaller than the implied ratio, rates for 21-year-olds under the CMS guidelines above are artificially increased while rates for 64-year-olds are artificially decreased to meet ACA mandated cap while allowing the insurance company to maintain adequate reserves to meet their claims expenses. Since the 18.3% increase quoted above is based on artificially high premiums at age 22, your actual observed increase will be much larger.
 
Now to crunch some numbers. The male cost curve which would have been used to rate you ten years ago would have generated about a 37.5% increase in premiums between ages 22 and 32. However, we have switched to the unisex cost curve which, instead, raised your premiums about 125% over those ten years. But that is not the whole story. Inflation has inflated the value money by about 26% over the past ten years. Adding in inflation we get an expected increase of 185% based solely on inflation, you growing older, and the move to unisex rating. Without the unisex rating, we would expect a 74% increase. It is also worth noting that, again due to inflation, your real deductible has only increased about 550%.
 
You say that these increases have made insurance unaffordable, and that may be true. However, a near doubling of your premium and some of the increase in your deductible was inevitable and had nothing to do with ACA. If you are male, then you can blame ACA for another good chunk of your premium increases. I happen to think that using the wider unisex risk pool is a better policy, but you may not feel the same. Even if you don't, think of how unaffordable the female premium for your same aged cohorts would be without the unisex rating.
 
There are many other factors that may have influenced your rate increases, some of which are unknowable to us anonymous internet readers and some of which are fairly unknowable to you. Healthcare costs have been increasing faster than inflation nationwide, but some of that increase is as a result of different age demographics, so I did not include any contributing factor since we were already looking at different ages. The provider network in your area may have become more (or less) competitive and thus more expensive. There may be fewer insurance companies offering plans in your area. The demographics of your area may have gotten sicker or older. Some of these possible sources of premium increases could be remedied by moving to a lower risk or lower cost or more competitive area. In short, there are many, many reasons why your premiums increase, but a more than doubling of your, specific premium is not only unsurprising, it’s downright predictable.
 
Here is the source that I used for the unisex, male, and female cost factors. It is a study from 2013 sponsored by the Society of Actuaries: http://www.healthcostinstitute.org/files/Age-Curve-Stude_0.pdf
 
Tl;dr. I would have expected a 74% increase in Nic’s premium and a 26% increase in Nic’s deductible between ages 22 and 32 based solely on inflation and Nic growing older. If Nic is male, then another 64% increase in premiums on top of that expected increase can be explained by the move to unisex rating rules under ACA, meaning that a near tripling in premiums is perfectly expected.

RootofGood

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Re: Does Obamacare Help Americans Retire Early or Take Career Risks?
« Reply #41 on: February 26, 2014, 02:08:42 PM »
Yeah, the ACA makes being a self-insured 20-something male with zero medical issues a crappy proposition from a HI premium standpoint. 

But if you're one that plays the long game, most 20-something males can appreciate the fact that at some point they won't be 20-something males without medical conditions.  You get older, shit happens, conditions develop.  You can't be denied HI any longer as you get older and sicker.