Does it matter what you do for work or what your title is if you're happy?

[Bearblastbeats]

For instance, I always wanted to be a project manager. Now that I've been managing projects and people for a few years now, I am really kind of over it.

Some days I miss when I used to be a drafter, or even miss when I used to be a flooring installer.

unfortunately, I won't be able to acquire as much income as I do now unless I stay in these management roles, especially since I cover more than 80% of the household expenses.

[soccerluvof4]

Not at all. Titles are just for egos and half of them are BS anyhow like VP of Sales gets overused all the time. Makes people feel good and company able to pay them less for stroking there ego.

To your point if your enjoying doing something and making enough money that is whats important. Alot of Hedge fund managers, VP of Sales, and so on miserable and not making a dime.

[Prairie Moustache]

There's really a couple paths you can go down, you can either completely craft your identity and self worth based upon your career and your title, or you can work to form an identity outside of work and build an interesting personality through your hobbies and interests etc. MMM had a good post about realizing when enough is enough. I tried to search for it but it wasn't popping up based on the keywords I was using. In my work I've realized that I have "enough". The roles above me are fancier titles and way more responsibility when compared to pay. I've decided to take the second approach and focus more on building up skills outside of work, etc.

[Linea_Norway]

In my department everyone has the official title "system engineer", including myself. But my most important role is test manager for the main operative system. So that is how I introduce myself to others. And how I get introduced by my colleagues.

About management roles. Yes, they can be stressful and maybe therefore they can pay well. That is a consequence, high pay includes high responsibility and a certain amount of stress. Some people are willing to take such a role upon them and get paid well. Sometimes, after a number of years, they step down and just do the thing without being a manager. Usually for lower pay.

I guess it depends on how much you can reduce the need to work overtime and feel stressed at work, whether you can continue in such a position or not.

[goalphish2002]

I completely understand where you are coming from.  But, could this be a grass greener on the other side situation?  When we are frustrated with our current situation we look at the past with rose colored glasses.  Did you want to become a PM because it drove you crazy being underneath incompetent PMs?  Did you have ideas to make projects more profitable and efficient?  Can you go back to just enjoying the tasks given to you, no matter how inefficient the process (knowing it could be mismanaged above you)?  Now, if you truly enjoy drafting or installation more and feel the quality of life is better, I say make the math work for you financially (cut expenses, etc...) and make the move back.  Life is short, and I encourage you to do this.     

[Metalcat]

You are conflating 2 separate but related issues: titles and income.

If I can have a prestigious title in job 1, but I prefer Job 2, which has no prestigious title and both jobs have the same income, then no, IDGAF about my job title or what people think of my work.

More prestigious work does tend to come with higher remuneration though, so the challenge becomes if you will actually be happier doing the job you enjoy more, but being paid less for your time. That's where the trade off starts being very very personal and dependent on your circumstances.

You also have to account that higher paying jobs also often require longer hours and much more intense investment of energy and stress, so there's that trade off of non-monetary assets as well. How valuable is higher income if it's killing you and ruining your marriage? Again, the balance is entirely personal.

Where is starts getting really interesting is when the work you enjoy more actually pays more per hour of time, but pays less overall due to far fewer hours, but gives you more free time. Like a lot of us who do consulting.

So no, the title really really doesn't matter, but that's a lot easier to say for people who have had extremely prestigious job titles and learned the hard way that no one cares as much as we thought they would in our 20s. That "oh wow, your a XYZ" or "oh! You must make a lot of money" is more awkward than cool in real life conversations.

The people who like you don't care about your job title and the people who don't like you don't matter.

If you aren't happy, then there are so many options aside from going back to lower paid, less skilled work. In fact, MORE highly skilled work tends to be a great answer to getting better paid for less stress.

Just look at sol's thread in the Post-FIRE section where he's going back to work just because he was offered so much money to work from home because he had a unique skill set.

The highest paid, chillest professionals are those who can demand whatever kind of work situation they want because their skills are worth whatever bullshit hoops they demand their employers jump through. It takes A LOT of work to get to that level though.

So yeah, if you aren't happy, then definitely change something, but don't get hung up on titles because nobody actually cares except your parents and people who don't like you.

[Bearblastbeats]

You are conflating 2 separate but related issues: titles and income.

If I can have a prestigious title in job 1, but I prefer Job 2, which has no prestigious title and both jobs have the same income, then no, IDGAF about my job title or what people think of my work.

More prestigious work does tend to come with higher remuneration though, so the challenge becomes if you will actually be happier doing the job you enjoy more, but being paid less for your time. That's where the trade off starts being very very personal and dependent on your circumstances.

You also have to account that higher paying jobs also often require longer hours and much more intense investment of energy and stress, so there's that trade off of non-monetary assets as well. How valuable is higher income if it's killing you and ruining your marriage? Again, the balance is entirely personal.

Where is starts getting really interesting is when the work you enjoy more actually pays more per hour of time, but pays less overall due to far fewer hours, but gives you more free time. Like a lot of us who do consulting.

So no, the title really really doesn't matter, but that's a lot easier to say for people who have had extremely prestigious job titles and learned the hard way that no one cares as much as we thought they would in our 20s. That "oh wow, your a XYZ" or "oh! You must make a lot of money" is more awkward than cool in real life conversations.

The people who like you don't care about your job title and the people who don't like you don't matter.

If you aren't happy, then there are so many options aside from going back to lower paid, less skilled work. In fact, MORE highly skilled work tends to be a great answer to getting better paid for less stress.

Just look at sol's thread in the Post-FIRE section where he's going back to work just because he was offered so much money to work from home because he had a unique skill set.

The highest paid, chillest professionals are those who can demand whatever kind of work situation they want because their skills are worth whatever bullshit hoops they demand their employers jump through. It takes A LOT of work to get to that level though.

So yeah, if you aren't happy, then definitely change something, but don't get hung up on titles because nobody actually cares except your parents and people who don't like you.

Thanks! Everyone gave great advise here but this one stuck out more to me.

I essentially took this role from my previous employer because I thought I wanted that Pm title and status. After the past few months I just don't care for this sort of stress, on top of the commute which I touched base on in an earlier post.

I only make about $73k here. I had a phone interview this morning for a systems design analyst, which sounds interesting, and has potential to pay up to $75k. I'm thinking that, if I get paid the same amount of money I make now, I should definitely be able to afford our lifestyle. And because of the tax benefits of working in NH instead of MA, it would almost seem like a raise.

The position is more relative to the work I was performing at my last employer in the material handling industry. But, instead of just designing and then managing projects, I would be trained on the systems and then I would be teaching these systems to the distributors. The potential position is about 20 minutes from my house, as opposed to an hour, but they may require travel nationwide to the distributors. So in a sense, I'll have less commute time to the office but will need to fly out for a few days at a time to a site.

I also have a quick interview tonight with a design build firm focusing on landscape architecture. It is another project manager role and is about an hou from my house. It's doubtful I would make close to what I have now based on the size of that company, but I'll make it a point to meet and discuss with them.

[expatartist]

A good question to ask yourself now and then. Was thinking of this today, wondering if I were unmotivated because I'm not really interested in climbing the ranks at work or going for my director's position. The incredible freedom and respect I'm given now are priceless. The admin and cultural maneuverings required of a 'higher' position would turn work into a chore instead of the joy it is currently.

[EnjoyIt]

A good question to ask yourself now and then. Was thinking of this today, wondering if I were unmotivated because I'm not really interested in climbing the ranks at work or going for my director's position. The incredible freedom and respect I'm given now are priceless. The admin and cultural maneuverings required of a 'higher' position would turn work into a chore instead of the joy it is currently.

Climbing up the corporate ladder requires a particular personality and desire that not everyone has or wants.  The higher you go, the more responsibility you have and responsible for more and more people and what they do.  Some people really enjoy being one of the decision makers. The successful leaders enjoy meetings and the politics behind the scenes.  A successful leader is able to put the interests of his people and the interest of the company in alignment.  This is sometimes a very difficult task considering they often do not align when talking about corporate profits. Being in leadership, you usually end up taking work home with you as you are responsible 24/7.  There are some leaders who appear to have success via total self interest. They have no problem throwing others under the bus as long as they get ahead.  These people inevitably get caught up in their own bullshit and eventually crumble.

Others prefer to clock in, do their job and go home with nothing to think about afterwards. There is nothing wrong with that.  For these people the work/life balance tends to be a bit easier to accomplish.

I have experienced both sides of the coin.  I have been in leadership for almost a decade.  A few months ago I stepped down from that role and became a part time worker bee.  I sleep better, eat better, exercise more, don't take work home with me, and all around have a much easier and happier life despite making significantly much less money.  I sometimes lament about how I thwarted my climb up to the top by going this route. Just thinking about how I left so much money behind which very likely is in the millions makes me a little nauseated.  But I go back to the thought that more money will not make me any happier.  Sure it will provide more security, but is that worth the price I need to pay regarding stress and decreased family/friend time.  I think not.

If you do choose to go the leadership route, do it because you enjoy it and because you want to make the place better.  Do you it because you give a damn and not just for the money.  Otherwise you will be miserable and that is simply not worth the stress.

[Bearblastbeats]

A good question to ask yourself now and then. Was thinking of this today, wondering if I were unmotivated because I'm not really interested in climbing the ranks at work or going for my director's position. The incredible freedom and respect I'm given now are priceless. The admin and cultural maneuverings required of a 'higher' position would turn work into a chore instead of the joy it is currently.

Climbing up the corporate ladder requires a particular personality and desire that not everyone has or wants.  The higher you go, the more responsibility you have and responsible for more and more people and what they do.  Some people really enjoy being one of the decision makers. The successful leaders enjoy meetings and the politics behind the scenes.  A successful leader is able to put the interests of his people and the interest of the company in alignment.  This is sometimes a very difficult task considering they often do not align when talking about corporate profits. Being in leadership, you usually end up taking work home with you as you are responsible 24/7.  There are some leaders who appear to have success via total self interest. They have no problem throwing others under the bus as long as they get ahead.  These people inevitably get caught up in their own bullshit and eventually crumble.

Others prefer to clock in, do their job and go home with nothing to think about afterwards. There is nothing wrong with that.  For these people the work/life balance tends to be a bit easier to accomplish.

I have experienced both sides of the coin.  I have been in leadership for almost a decade.  A few months ago I stepped down from that role and became a part time worker bee.  I sleep better, eat better, exercise more, don't take work home with me, and all around have a much easier and happier life despite making significantly much less money.  I sometimes lament about how I thwarted my climb up to the top by going this route. Just thinking about how I left so much money behind which very likely is in the millions makes me a little nauseated.  But I go back to the thought that more money will not make me any happier.  Sure it will provide more security, but is that worth the price I need to pay regarding stress and decreased family/friend time.  I think not.

If you do choose to go the leadership route, do it because you enjoy it and because you want to make the place better.  Do you it because you give a damn and not just for the money.  Otherwise you will be miserable and that is simply not worth the stress.

I often find myself being a leader that can do. I'm task oriented. Delegating work is ok, but I'm used to ad comfortable being the one doing the work. That way I know it gets done and to a certain standard.

But to your point, I took the current PM role for the money more than the actual enjoyment of it. I thought I would like it but politics aren't my thing. I'd probably be better as an assistant PM.

[EnjoyIt]

A good question to ask yourself now and then. Was thinking of this today, wondering if I were unmotivated because I'm not really interested in climbing the ranks at work or going for my director's position. The incredible freedom and respect I'm given now are priceless. The admin and cultural maneuverings required of a 'higher' position would turn work into a chore instead of the joy it is currently.

Climbing up the corporate ladder requires a particular personality and desire that not everyone has or wants.  The higher you go, the more responsibility you have and responsible for more and more people and what they do.  Some people really enjoy being one of the decision makers. The successful leaders enjoy meetings and the politics behind the scenes.  A successful leader is able to put the interests of his people and the interest of the company in alignment.  This is sometimes a very difficult task considering they often do not align when talking about corporate profits. Being in leadership, you usually end up taking work home with you as you are responsible 24/7.  There are some leaders who appear to have success via total self interest. They have no problem throwing others under the bus as long as they get ahead.  These people inevitably get caught up in their own bullshit and eventually crumble.

Others prefer to clock in, do their job and go home with nothing to think about afterwards. There is nothing wrong with that.  For these people the work/life balance tends to be a bit easier to accomplish.

I have experienced both sides of the coin.  I have been in leadership for almost a decade.  A few months ago I stepped down from that role and became a part time worker bee.  I sleep better, eat better, exercise more, don't take work home with me, and all around have a much easier and happier life despite making significantly much less money.  I sometimes lament about how I thwarted my climb up to the top by going this route. Just thinking about how I left so much money behind which very likely is in the millions makes me a little nauseated.  But I go back to the thought that more money will not make me any happier.  Sure it will provide more security, but is that worth the price I need to pay regarding stress and decreased family/friend time.  I think not.

If you do choose to go the leadership route, do it because you enjoy it and because you want to make the place better.  Do you it because you give a damn and not just for the money.  Otherwise you will be miserable and that is simply not worth the stress.

I often find myself being a leader that can do. I'm task oriented. Delegating work is ok, but I'm used to ad comfortable being the one doing the work. That way I know it gets done and to a certain standard.

But to your point, I took the current PM role for the money more than the actual enjoyment of it. I thought I would like it but politics aren't my thing. I'd probably be better as an assistant PM.

Assistant leader is by far the way to go. You get some responsibility and respect with none of the liability and headaches. Unfortunately these positions are geared to be stepping stones for leadership and if you don’t eventually move up, you tend to be replaced by someone with more motivation to move up the ladder.

[aceyou]

I suppose if your title was "mob hit man", then what you do for work probably matters...even if you are happy:)

But yeah, drafter seems like a pretty good gig, go for it if you were happier then!

[undercover]

unfortunately, I won't be able to acquire as much income as I do now unless I stay in these management roles, especially since I cover more than 80% of the household expenses.

I wouldn't look at it like that. If you're doing something you prefer doing, you're likely to do more of it more often meaning you will progress doing that thing faster than you would doing something you didn't like and also you're more likely to be doing it for a greater period of time than something you hate.

You might last 5 years as a manager before getting completely burnt out and possibly turning to bad lifestyle habits or even drugs and end up losing the job and really having an existential crisis or spend 15 years doing something you enjoy and still be happy at the end of the 15 years. You have to think like an economist and look at the hidden costs which is something most people do not do.

Nowadays of course I think you're more enviable if you're making good money and don't have a job title at all. Why would you be on this forum otherwise?

[Bearblastbeats]

Had two interviews yesterday.

One was for System Design Analyst, where I would be technical sales support for their product. They create giant cubed storage solutions. Similar to what I did at last employer, but instead of being the distributor or integrator, I would be the manufacture. Pays up to 75k, located in 20 minutes from me with 25% travel across the country. Company is world wide with 3 HQs and 200+ employees. I'd be the US HQ with 12 employees.

Second is Estimator/Project Manager for a design build firm  about 30 minutes from me, mainly based around landscaping, but does construction as well. Owner is interested in me to wear many hats and be his right hand man. Pay is being negotiated but would need it to be around 75K to consider. Job is mainly seacoast based, 10 employees.
 

[Fishindude]

It's funny how important a job title is to some people.   I'm involved with a bank and it's a really big ego thing for many to go from "loan officer" to "senior VP of lending" or some such title change even though the money really isn't a whole lot better.   I owned a company for many years and never put "president" or "CEO" on my business cards or emails, just my name.

To heck with the title, give me the money.

[brute]

I've been chasing my current title for a while now. Yes, I like the impression it gives. Yes, I'm probably too full of myself. But, it also gives me the ability to pick up the phone and have another great paying job in a field I love in 3 minutes or less. Being a principal data scientist means WAY more to me than director or vp or other high up titles. Having a title that immediately informs a potential employer than no only do I know how to do the work, but I can run the team, the funding, the prioritization, etc. Plus, this level has some pretty decent perks, things that were never a possibility as a Sr or Lead.

So, I guess what I'm saying is title doesn't matter if you aren't going anywhere and your team will always be stable. But if you might have some instability, title can be everything. And it helps if it's a REAL title, not some make believe Sr VP of whatever at a tiny institution.

[Just Joe]

Also you need to pick something well suited for your personality. I've heard stories of an acquaintance who is so stressed by their job that they are having serious health issues in their middle age. Who wants to be on meds in their 40s to manage the side effects of a job?

DW and I have chosen salaried positions that are right below a stress line in our workplaces. We make most of the same money, we have a few tough periods, and at the end of the work day we go home. We have job titles that reflect our educations and a pair of reliable salaries for our efforts.

We have tried to find a good balance between building our family and our bank account. Bigger salaries and bigger titles might be nice but I'm not willing to give an employer more of my time or effort.

[dividendman]

I always strive to maximize my income and minimize my title. It's worked out pretty well.

[Brother Esau]

I always strive to maximize my income and minimize my title. It's worked out pretty well.

Exactly! Similar to when I first obtained the Professional Engineer license. Get paid to possess it but minimize using it to avoid liability.

[2microsNH]

"A few months ago I stepped down from that role and became a part time worker bee.  I sleep better, eat better, exercise more, don't take work home with me, and all around have a much easier and happier life despite making significantly much less money." --EnjoyIt

Me, too. For four years, I took on a managerial position that paid slightly better, but I loathed the administrative work. Since I've stepped 'down' -- back into my prior position -- I too sleep better, eat better, and feel much less stressed. I decided that the tiny salary increase wasn't worth the anxiety, and the perceived "prestige" was just BS; none of my colleagues or friends cared that I was a program manager -- everyone is absorbed in their own lives and couldn't give a fig. Now, I work fewer hours and enjoy life. I've achieved enough, and I'm tired of striving.

[Prairie Moustache]

I always strive to maximize my income and minimize my title. It's worked out pretty well.

Exactly! Similar to when I first obtained the Professional Engineer license. Get paid to possess it but minimize using it to avoid liability.

Yup, I still have a year and a bit until I can get my P Eng here in Canada, but once obtained it will be an instant raise without a title or job scope change. The best part is that I will never ever have to stamp anything in my role.

[Dicey]

It's funny how important a job title is to some people.   I'm involved with a bank and it's a really big ego thing for many to go from "loan officer" to "senior VP of lending" or some such title change even though the money really isn't a whole lot better.   I owned a company for many years and never put "president" or "CEO" on my business cards or emails, just my name.

To heck with the title, give me the money.

I used to be a manufacturer's rep. Most of my accounts were mom & pop shops. Some of them were extremely wealthy. To a person, the coolest people had no title on their business cards.

[expatartist]

A good question to ask yourself now and then. Was thinking of this today, wondering if I were unmotivated because I'm not really interested in climbing the ranks at work or going for my director's position. The incredible freedom and respect I'm given now are priceless. The admin and cultural maneuverings required of a 'higher' position would turn work into a chore instead of the joy it is currently.

Climbing up the corporate ladder requires a particular personality and desire that not everyone has or wants.  The higher you go, the more responsibility you have and responsible for more and more people and what they do.  Some people really enjoy being one of the decision makers. The successful leaders enjoy meetings and the politics behind the scenes.  A successful leader is able to put the interests of his people and the interest of the company in alignment. 

Good description of successful leaders. Some people prefer not to lead others and focus on their own work.

My job title is "Artist-in-Residence". Typically these positions are temporary, for a few weeks or months. Mine is a 2-year renewable contract, commissions at double the market rate. Moving 'up' to dept director would mean becoming an administrator, losing out on a rare creative position. A 100% creative, salaried art position like what I have now is very rare. So in my case moving up would mean losing out.

[Bearblastbeats]

I've been trying to figure out how much of a pay cut I can maintain to switch jobs. If I were to take a job in NH I should be able to live on $70K, dependent upon distance.

As long as I take home ~$1000.00 a week I should be ok to cover all household, family, and baby expenses.

[Bearblastbeats]

So, I received a job offer for a Project manager position with the Landscape Architecture design/build firm.

They offered me $73,000 with full benefits package that start on day one. Which is $200 more an year than I make now.

The job is located in NH and is the same distant to travel as my current job is.

My current is in MA, so I'm hit with 5.5% income tax.

Would you rather work at an architecture and engineering firm in MA for the telecommunications industry, with 50-60 staff.

Or would you take a job in your same state for an architectural landscaping firm with about 10-14 staff.




I am still interviewing with another job, which is 20 minutes from my house but is the Systems Design Analyst job. So I am trying to hold off on accepting or declining.

[CptCool]

So, I received a job offer for a Project manager position with the Landscape Architecture design/build firm.

They offered me $73,000 with full benefits package that start on day one. Which is $200 more an year than I make now.

The job is located in NH and is the same distant to travel as my current job is.

My current is in MA, so I'm hit with 5.5% income tax.

Would you rather work at an architecture and engineering firm in MA for the telecommunications industry, with 50-60 staff.

Or would you take a job in your same state for an architectural landscaping firm with about 10-14 staff.




I am still interviewing with another job, which is 20 minutes from my house but is the Systems Design Analyst job. So I am trying to hold off on accepting or declining.

The first offer is usually a lowball (in my limited experience) and you can easily push for higher numbers. Keep that in mind when fielding job offers

[Bearblastbeats]

So, I received a job offer for a Project manager position with the Landscape Architecture design/build firm.

They offered me $73,000 with full benefits package that start on day one. Which is $200 more an year than I make now.

The job is located in NH and is the same distant to travel as my current job is.

My current is in MA, so I'm hit with 5.5% income tax.

Would you rather work at an architecture and engineering firm in MA for the telecommunications industry, with 50-60 staff.

Or would you take a job in your same state for an architectural landscaping firm with about 10-14 staff.




I am still interviewing with another job, which is 20 minutes from my house but is the Systems Design Analyst job. So I am trying to hold off on accepting or declining.

The first offer is usually a lowball (in my limited experience) and you can easily push for higher numbers. Keep that in mind when fielding job offers

His original offer was 65k, which I told him was 10k less than I make now. Told him 73k would be a talking point.

[Chris22]

So, I guess what I'm saying is title doesn't matter if you aren't going anywhere and your team will always be stable. But if you might have some instability, title can be everything. And it helps if it's a REAL title, not some make believe Sr VP of whatever at a tiny institution.

Exactly.  I'm in corporate finance.  Whether you are a

Financial Analyst
Senior Financial Analyst
Finance Manager
Senior Finance Manager
Director of Finance

has a very real meaning and impact on your value on the open job market.  There's probably a $150-300k spread from the bottom of one to the top of the other.  I'm currently a manager, doing the work of a director (filling in a director role).  I really want the promotion, which would be nice from an immediate $$ perspective (maybe 10% raise + double the bonus potential) but more importantly a director of finance for a F100 company has basically limitless value on the job market, whether it's walking into another F500, or downgrading and taking a "big fish in a small pond" role at a small company somewhere.  I've seen people take $$ and lesser title instead of negotiating for the better title, and they screw themselves in the long run.  It's not about prestige, it's about what you can demand in terms of future positions.