Does anyone know MMM's stance on veganism?

[Zikoris]

I would suggest this article for people who think meat is 100% unethical for environmental reasons: https://sustainabledish.com/meat-is-magnificent/

It's not so black and white.

TLDR is basically: animals are useful in replenishing the soil, a large amount of farm land is not suitable for growing crops but is good for grazers, 1lb of beef requires equal or less water than 1lb rice and other fruits/veggies, beef has an excellent nutritional profile for the most common global deficiencies, meat eating is actually down ~10% since the 80s but our processed foods and monoculture grains are up.

The caveat is that most meat is not raised this way right now and if it went this way we would probably have to reduce meat consumption (IMO). So I agree we should head in the direction of sustainable, ethically raised meat. But zero meat is not necessary and may actually be worse for the planet and human health.

The funny thing is, people who advocate for this system are actually advocating for veganism/vegetarianism for the majority of people, because this type of animal farming cannot produce anywhere even in the same ballpark of the amount of meat required for the population of north america to eat it at all regularly (or afford, as it would obviously drive the price up substantially due to supply and demand). So basically, a person advocating for this system and a person advocating for veganism are actually both advocating for veganism/mostly-veganism for like 90%, 95% of the population, and the only difference is what they think the remaining 5-10% should do.

[mm1970]

Reading Dr Greger's site (nutritionfacts.org) is really compelling and persuasive on the benefits of a whole foods based vegan diet.  It seems pretty clear to me eating Vegan (whole foods) is vastly more healthy than any other diet by orders of magnitude.  My discipline in this area is horrible, and I love different cuisines with meats too much -- in particular Japanese and Indian cuisine (yes I'm aware you can eat vegan indian food).  I'm impressed with those who can eat healthy whole foods Vegan style (not the processed diet, which is also horrible and surprisingly common).

I'd take anything Dr. Greger says with a grain of salt.  He has a history of misrepresenting studies and ignoring data that doesn't fit into his personal viewpoint.

Yes!

[sixup]

I would suggest this article for people who think meat is 100% unethical for environmental reasons: https://sustainabledish.com/meat-is-magnificent/

It's not so black and white.

TLDR is basically: animals are useful in replenishing the soil, a large amount of farm land is not suitable for growing crops but is good for grazers, 1lb of beef requires equal or less water than 1lb rice and other fruits/veggies, beef has an excellent nutritional profile for the most common global deficiencies, meat eating is actually down ~10% since the 80s but our processed foods and monoculture grains are up.

The caveat is that most meat is not raised this way right now and if it went this way we would probably have to reduce meat consumption (IMO). So I agree we should head in the direction of sustainable, ethically raised meat. But zero meat is not necessary and may actually be worse for the planet and human health.

The funny thing is, people who advocate for this system are actually advocating for veganism/vegetarianism for the majority of people, because this type of animal farming cannot produce anywhere even in the same ballpark of the amount of meat required for the population of north america to eat it at all regularly (or afford, as it would obviously drive the price up substantially due to supply and demand). So basically, a person advocating for this system and a person advocating for veganism are actually both advocating for veganism/mostly-veganism for like 90%, 95% of the population, and the only difference is what they think the remaining 5-10% should do.

Eh this is what is so commonly stated, but is it true? Is it really impossible to support local communities with local sustainable farms? I don't really know. My optimistic side says, maybe it could work with enough farms doing it. My realistic side says, the trends probably won't change and we'll continue to get more of the same.

[Zikoris]

I would suggest this article for people who think meat is 100% unethical for environmental reasons: https://sustainabledish.com/meat-is-magnificent/

It's not so black and white.

TLDR is basically: animals are useful in replenishing the soil, a large amount of farm land is not suitable for growing crops but is good for grazers, 1lb of beef requires equal or less water than 1lb rice and other fruits/veggies, beef has an excellent nutritional profile for the most common global deficiencies, meat eating is actually down ~10% since the 80s but our processed foods and monoculture grains are up.

The caveat is that most meat is not raised this way right now and if it went this way we would probably have to reduce meat consumption (IMO). So I agree we should head in the direction of sustainable, ethically raised meat. But zero meat is not necessary and may actually be worse for the planet and human health.

The funny thing is, people who advocate for this system are actually advocating for veganism/vegetarianism for the majority of people, because this type of animal farming cannot produce anywhere even in the same ballpark of the amount of meat required for the population of north america to eat it at all regularly (or afford, as it would obviously drive the price up substantially due to supply and demand). So basically, a person advocating for this system and a person advocating for veganism are actually both advocating for veganism/mostly-veganism for like 90%, 95% of the population, and the only difference is what they think the remaining 5-10% should do.

Eh this is what is so commonly stated, but is it true? Is it really impossible to support local communities with local sustainable farms? I don't really know. My optimistic side says, maybe it could work with enough farms doing it. My realistic side says, the trends probably won't change and we'll continue to get more of the same.

I mean, the reality is that the "ethical" type of animal farming takes more space, a lot longer for the animals to grow to the size where people would slaughter them, and the yields are lower. If that was the only type of meat that existed, of course it would drive the price way up, because you just can't produce that much of it, and you can bet that the wealthier people would be grabbing it up like crazy. In a lot of the world it's already the case that eating meat is a status symbol. It's just the basics of supply and demand. Sure, if a person lived in the country and raised animals on their own, they would have some leeway there, but the percentage of the population that would apply to is so small - remember, over 80% of Americans live in cities.

[HBFIRE]

I'd take anything Dr. Greger says with a grain of salt.  He has a history of misrepresenting studies and ignoring data that doesn't fit into his personal viewpoint.

Interesting, wasn't aware.  Any good sources on this?

[partgypsy]

I would suggest this article for people who think meat is 100% unethical for environmental reasons: https://sustainabledish.com/meat-is-magnificent/

It's not so black and white.

TLDR is basically: animals are useful in replenishing the soil, a large amount of farm land is not suitable for growing crops but is good for grazers, 1lb of beef requires equal or less water than 1lb rice and other fruits/veggies, beef has an excellent nutritional profile for the most common global deficiencies, meat eating is actually down ~10% since the 80s but our processed foods and monoculture grains are up.

The caveat is that most meat is not raised this way right now and if it went this way we would probably have to reduce meat consumption (IMO). So I agree we should head in the direction of sustainable, ethically raised meat. But zero meat is not necessary and may actually be worse for the planet and human health.

The funny thing is, people who advocate for this system are actually advocating for veganism/vegetarianism for the majority of people, because this type of animal farming cannot produce anywhere even in the same ballpark of the amount of meat required for the population of north america to eat it at all regularly (or afford, as it would obviously drive the price up substantially due to supply and demand). So basically, a person advocating for this system and a person advocating for veganism are actually both advocating for veganism/mostly-veganism for like 90%, 95% of the population, and the only difference is what they think the remaining 5-10% should do.

I think you are right about this. But again I think perfect is the enemy of good. Say if people in the US ate 50% less meat then they do now, that would be 50% less factory farmed meat. I live in NC and from the hog farms there are hog waste lagoon spills every time there is a hurricane or bad storm, and it pollutes the ground and water supply. Mmm bacon, not so much.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/florence-fall-out-threatens-release-waste-stored-dozens-north-carolina-hog-lagoons-180970360/

[gaja]

I would suggest this article for people who think meat is 100% unethical for environmental reasons: https://sustainabledish.com/meat-is-magnificent/

It's not so black and white.

TLDR is basically: animals are useful in replenishing the soil, a large amount of farm land is not suitable for growing crops but is good for grazers, 1lb of beef requires equal or less water than 1lb rice and other fruits/veggies, beef has an excellent nutritional profile for the most common global deficiencies, meat eating is actually down ~10% since the 80s but our processed foods and monoculture grains are up.

The caveat is that most meat is not raised this way right now and if it went this way we would probably have to reduce meat consumption (IMO). So I agree we should head in the direction of sustainable, ethically raised meat. But zero meat is not necessary and may actually be worse for the planet and human health.

The funny thing is, people who advocate for this system are actually advocating for veganism/vegetarianism for the majority of people, because this type of animal farming cannot produce anywhere even in the same ballpark of the amount of meat required for the population of north america to eat it at all regularly (or afford, as it would obviously drive the price up substantially due to supply and demand). So basically, a person advocating for this system and a person advocating for veganism are actually both advocating for veganism/mostly-veganism for like 90%, 95% of the population, and the only difference is what they think the remaining 5-10% should do.

I think you are right about this. But again I think perfect is the enemy of good. Say if people in the US ate 50% less meat then they do now, that would be 50% less factory farmed meat. I live in NC and from the hog farms there are hog waste lagoon spills every time there is a hurricane or bad storm, and it pollutes the ground and water supply. Mmm bacon, not so much.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/florence-fall-out-threatens-release-waste-stored-dozens-north-carolina-hog-lagoons-180970360/

What an absolutely insane way to do things. The methane release from those lagoons must be massive!

[GuitarStv]

I'd take anything Dr. Greger says with a grain of salt.  He has a history of misrepresenting studies and ignoring data that doesn't fit into his personal viewpoint.

Interesting, wasn't aware.  Any good sources on this?

There are a bunch of little things that I've found over time when I was watching his videos and then checking his sources, but I didn't really take extensive notes . . . just kept finding that he was cherry picking studies that fit his narrative, ignoring studies that didn't, and sometimes inferring things from the listed reference studies that they didn't actually say.  Fact check his stuff for a while and you'll see what I mean.

This review of one of his books points out what I was noticing:  https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/how-not-to-die-review#section1  or this debunking of one of his videos:  https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illness-curable-by-veganism/.

Although much of his message is good, he misrepresents stuff frequently enough that I didn't have the energy to keep picking the truth from the misrepresentations.  Any of his fans will always get excited about how many studies he references (very sciency!), but tend to have never really looked up what the studies say for themselves . . . and I think Greger kinda relies on this.

[mm1970]

I'd take anything Dr. Greger says with a grain of salt.  He has a history of misrepresenting studies and ignoring data that doesn't fit into his personal viewpoint.

Interesting, wasn't aware.  Any good sources on this?

There are a bunch of little things that I've found over time when I was watching his videos and then checking his sources, but I didn't really take extensive notes . . . just kept finding that he was cherry picking studies that fit his narrative, ignoring studies that didn't, and sometimes inferring things from the listed reference studies that they didn't actually say.  Fact check his stuff for a while and you'll see what I mean.

This review of one of his books points out what I was noticing:  https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/how-not-to-die-review#section1  or this debunking of one of his videos:  https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/death-as-a-foodborne-illness-curable-by-veganism/.

Although much of his message is good, he misrepresents stuff frequently enough that I didn't have the energy to keep picking the truth from the misrepresentations.  Any of his fans will always get excited about how many studies he references (very sciency!), but tend to have never really looked up what the studies say for themselves . . . and I think Greger kinda relies on this.

Ha ha yes.  I got into an argument on Instagram (oh, why me!) with my niece, of all people - who had just gone vegan because of his book and another vegan friend of hers.  I was pointing out the inconsistencies and directed them to a couple of critiques.  My niece's friend was ALL OVER ME for ... get this... "You didn't look and check each and every one of his claims YOURSELF, so how do you KNOW!!"

Um...clearly...you didn't either?  You just read a book and took it at face value?  I kinda left without pointing that out because...if she didn't figure that point out already she was never gonna...

For the record, any health book I read, I read the book and while reading it, google "reviews of ..." at the same time.  Sometimes, it's not even necessary (I'm looking at you Wheat Belly).

[Caoineag]

To be fair to Dr. Gregor he does mention in his book How Not to Die that a lot of the studies are preliminary, some of the studies aren't the highest quality but that he would rather err towards eating a diet with the most potential health benefits than wait till all the science is in because he sees no downside to trying to eat healthy. So he does acknowledge some of the criticisms right when he mentions these studies.

That said, even in my college classes discussing world development it was considered a given that the developed countries love of meat and high calories gave them cancer and heart disease while the developing world had to worry about sanitation and enough calories. This wasn't considered controversial.

Every time I have looked up a study I cared about, it said what he said it said so maybe we aren't looking up the same things...To me, meat consumption is heavily linked with heart disease and cancer so less is better for most people (though definitely not all) so I don't look that up as much. Though I do think he is very wrong about fish so maybe that is one of the areas he is cherry picking. And even he admitted that his distaste for eggs didn't have any studies to really back it up...

Anyways, I don't think any "expert" is unbiased so I always decide for myself what I should do with the information provided. Right now for me that mean keeping fish and reducing all other animal products to a level that leaves me healthy and free of cravings. Still working on getting myself to a nutrionally balanced diet. I always seem to have some portion in need of work (and eating meat still left me with nutritional holes so eating more wouldn't help this issue).

[sixwings]

Cultured meat is going to destroy traditional agricultural big-farm operations. We'll have two options in 10 years, ridiculously cheap cultured meat, or much more expensive real meat that is organic, local and sustainably raised.

[sol]

We'll have two options in 10 years, ridiculously cheap cultured meat, or much more expensive real meat that is organic, local and sustainably raised.

Why do you think we won't have the option for mass produced animal factory meat?  I don't see those operations going out of business anytime soon because they are the most profitable way to meet the demands of the marketplace, and the marketplace doesn't appear to be changing in the direction you predict.

[Imma]

I'm an omnivore. However I still practice lent which means essentially a vegan diet (except shellfish) for 6 weeks. Despite my best efforts I end up losing weight and by the end of it feel weak (it's good for me spiritually though). I am prone to iron deficiency anemia. I became severely anemic when I was eating meat about once or twice a month, and donated blood. I became so anemic they thought I might have blood or bone cancer. I even had a dietician review my diet and said since my diet was rich in non-animal iron, that I must have a problem absorbing anything but animal based iron. I also know from experience if I cheat and include a little dairy during Lent, I feel orders better than strictly removing all dairy and eggs.

That's pretty interesting given that milk doesn't have iron in it.

It actually makes a lot of sense, because the body needs B12 to be able to absorb iron and dairy is a source of B12. It's entirely possible that getting more vit. B12 through diet makes it easier for the body to absorb iron. Vit. C also helps your body absorb iron.

I suffer from chronic anemia too and I need to supplement both iron and B12 to get to a healthy level of iron in my blood.

[HBFIRE]

To be fair to Dr. Gregor he does mention in his book How Not to Die that a lot of the studies are preliminary, some of the studies aren't the highest quality but that he would rather err towards eating a diet with the most potential health benefits than wait till all the science is in because he sees no downside to trying to eat healthy. So he does acknowledge some of the criticisms right when he mentions these studies.

Thanks, this is pretty much what I took from his material.  It's a diet I still aspire to, but I'm far from it currently.

[Adam Zapple]

I've found it almost universally true that any health book that is written for mass consumption will contain a certain level of fanaticism and cherry-picking when it comes to scientific studies.  Greger does a decent job of at least occasionally acknowledging that information is not complete or that more studies are needed.

[sixwings]

We'll have two options in 10 years, ridiculously cheap cultured meat, or much more expensive real meat that is organic, local and sustainably raised.

Why do you think we won't have the option for mass produced animal factory meat?  I don't see those operations going out of business anytime soon because they are the most profitable way to meet the demands of the marketplace, and the marketplace doesn't appear to be changing in the direction you predict.

Well the market for meat hasn't been changing because cultured meat isnt in the market yet.

Generally, we are seeing the extremes of markets do well, either really cheap stuff or really expensive craftsman stuff does well. The stuff in the middle gets squeezed out.

The price of cultured meat has dropped from about $350,000/pound in 2013 to $50 in mid 2018, and according to a friend of mine who works in R+D in the industry at one of the leading cultured meat producers it's actually closer to 30 now. We're going to start seeing it in the market in restaurants and some grocery stores probably this year. As the research continues and more companies enter the research and development of it, the technology will dramatically increase and the price will dramatically decrease. It's very likely that within 10 years the price of a pound of cultured ground beef could be less than a dollar. When the price of cultured meat is less (maybe even significantly cheaper) than the price of ground beef, the mass produced factory meat gets stuck in the middle. If cultured meat costs less and tastes the same (or even better which is very possible given the ability to manipulate taste/nutrients), the market will quickly adopt cultured meat and mass produced factory meat is gone. This could happen really quickly. There will always be a market for the really fancy, local "craftsman" meat, and there will be a market for the cheap cultured meat. The factory meat in the middle gets eliminated.

I suggest doing some research on what companies are doing with cultured meat. It's really interesting and is IMO the direction that meat production will inevitably end up in. They are even creating cultured steaks and fish now. Also, if the tech is as clean as it seems like it could be, cultured meat may be the most important technology in climate change and population growth.

[ROF Expat]

We'll have two options in 10 years, ridiculously cheap cultured meat, or much more expensive real meat that is organic, local and sustainably raised.

Why do you think we won't have the option for mass produced animal factory meat?  I don't see those operations going out of business anytime soon because they are the most profitable way to meet the demands of the marketplace, and the marketplace doesn't appear to be changing in the direction you predict.

Well the market for meat hasn't been changing because cultured meat isnt in the market yet.

Generally, we are seeing the extremes of markets do well, either really cheap stuff or really expensive craftsman stuff does well. The stuff in the middle gets squeezed out.

The price of cultured meat has dropped from about $350,000/pound in 2013 to $50 in mid 2018, and according to a friend of mine who works in R+D in the industry at one of the leading cultured meat producers it's actually closer to 30 now. We're going to start seeing it in the market in restaurants and some grocery stores probably this year. As the research continues and more companies enter the research and development of it, the technology will dramatically increase and the price will dramatically decrease. It's very likely that within 10 years the price of a pound of cultured ground beef could be less than a dollar. When the price of cultured meat is less (maybe even significantly cheaper) than the price of ground beef, the mass produced factory meat gets stuck in the middle. If cultured meat costs less and tastes the same (or even better which is very possible given the ability to manipulate taste/nutrients), the market will quickly adopt cultured meat and mass produced factory meat is gone. This could happen really quickly. There will always be a market for the really fancy, local "craftsman" meat, and there will be a market for the cheap cultured meat. The factory meat in the middle gets eliminated.

I suggest doing some research on what companies are doing with cultured meat. It's really interesting and is IMO the direction that meat production will inevitably end up in. They are even creating cultured steaks and fish now. Also, if the tech is as clean as it seems like it could be, cultured meat may be the most important technology in climate change and population growth.

There's another thread about food snobbery, and maybe I'm going to sound like a food snob, but I'm skeptical about cultured meat.  I can see how cheap cultured meat could change the market for food, but I have my doubts about scientists doing a better job than nature.  Tang isn't orange juice, vinyl isn't leather, margarine isn't butter, and I seriously doubt scientists can really make cultured meat like a real steak. 

Skepticism aside, having choices is good.  I hope scientists can make a product that helps the environment and that people like.  Some people like Tang and margarine.  Good for them.  Right now, though, my vision of cultured meats ends up being something closer to soylent green than a Porterhouse from the "replicator" Star Trek.  I'd love to be wrong, and have cultured meat turn out to be great, but I think it will happen about the same time as my jetpack.

[Metalcat]

We'll have two options in 10 years, ridiculously cheap cultured meat, or much more expensive real meat that is organic, local and sustainably raised.

Why do you think we won't have the option for mass produced animal factory meat?  I don't see those operations going out of business anytime soon because they are the most profitable way to meet the demands of the marketplace, and the marketplace doesn't appear to be changing in the direction you predict.

Well the market for meat hasn't been changing because cultured meat isnt in the market yet.

Generally, we are seeing the extremes of markets do well, either really cheap stuff or really expensive craftsman stuff does well. The stuff in the middle gets squeezed out.

The price of cultured meat has dropped from about $350,000/pound in 2013 to $50 in mid 2018, and according to a friend of mine who works in R+D in the industry at one of the leading cultured meat producers it's actually closer to 30 now. We're going to start seeing it in the market in restaurants and some grocery stores probably this year. As the research continues and more companies enter the research and development of it, the technology will dramatically increase and the price will dramatically decrease. It's very likely that within 10 years the price of a pound of cultured ground beef could be less than a dollar. When the price of cultured meat is less (maybe even significantly cheaper) than the price of ground beef, the mass produced factory meat gets stuck in the middle. If cultured meat costs less and tastes the same (or even better which is very possible given the ability to manipulate taste/nutrients), the market will quickly adopt cultured meat and mass produced factory meat is gone. This could happen really quickly. There will always be a market for the really fancy, local "craftsman" meat, and there will be a market for the cheap cultured meat. The factory meat in the middle gets eliminated.

I suggest doing some research on what companies are doing with cultured meat. It's really interesting and is IMO the direction that meat production will inevitably end up in. They are even creating cultured steaks and fish now. Also, if the tech is as clean as it seems like it could be, cultured meat may be the most important technology in climate change and population growth.

There's another thread about food snobbery, and maybe I'm going to sound like a food snob, but I'm skeptical about cultured meat.  I can see how cheap cultured meat could change the market for food, but I have my doubts about scientists doing a better job than nature.  Tang isn't orange juice, vinyl isn't leather, margarine isn't butter, and I seriously doubt scientists can really make cultured meat like a real steak. 

Skepticism aside, having choices is good.  I hope scientists can make a product that helps the environment and that people like.  Some people like Tang and margarine.  Good for them.  Right now, though, my vision of cultured meats ends up being something closer to soylent green than a Porterhouse from the "replicator" Star Trek.  I'd love to be wrong, and have cultured meat turn out to be great, but I think it will happen about the same time as my jetpack.

Orange juice isn't orange juice either...it's stale sugar water flavoured with customized perfume to smell and taste like orange juice. They even have regional perfume flavours because different populations have different expectations of what orange juice should taste like.

What you think is nature is actually produced by the exact same companies that make literal perfume.
If you were to drink "fresh squeezed" orange juice from the storage tank before the perfume is added, it would taste like sugar water.

People already chow down on hiiiighly chemically processed meat that barely resembles the natural animal source it came from and primarily gets its flavour and texture from science. Just look at how much processed cheese gets consumed, and it barely resembles cheese.

Food that gets its taste from science is already reality, and people shovel it down their gullets by the pound. I doubt they will be able to distinguish a lab sourced hot dog from a pig sourced hot dog, or chicken McNugget, or frozen fish stick, or prefab hamburger patty, etc.

Sure, there might be more of a challenge replicating a filet mignon, but it might cost less and taste better than crappy cuts of beef. Who knows?

However, the reviews on the flavour of the best lab ground beef are already saying that it tastes great. So I don't think that fantastic tasting lab meat is as far off as you think it is.

At the very least, it's already at a level that if it were affordable to produce, it could completely replace cows in all processed meat out there, like fast food chains and frozen meals, which is A LOT of the meat consumed these days.

[partgypsy]

We'll have two options in 10 years, ridiculously cheap cultured meat, or much more expensive real meat that is organic, local and sustainably raised.

Why do you think we won't have the option for mass produced animal factory meat?  I don't see those operations going out of business anytime soon because they are the most profitable way to meet the demands of the marketplace, and the marketplace doesn't appear to be changing in the direction you predict.

Well the market for meat hasn't been changing because cultured meat isnt in the market yet.

Generally, we are seeing the extremes of markets do well, either really cheap stuff or really expensive craftsman stuff does well. The stuff in the middle gets squeezed out.

The price of cultured meat has dropped from about $350,000/pound in 2013 to $50 in mid 2018, and according to a friend of mine who works in R+D in the industry at one of the leading cultured meat producers it's actually closer to 30 now. We're going to start seeing it in the market in restaurants and some grocery stores probably this year. As the research continues and more companies enter the research and development of it, the technology will dramatically increase and the price will dramatically decrease. It's very likely that within 10 years the price of a pound of cultured ground beef could be less than a dollar. When the price of cultured meat is less (maybe even significantly cheaper) than the price of ground beef, the mass produced factory meat gets stuck in the middle. If cultured meat costs less and tastes the same (or even better which is very possible given the ability to manipulate taste/nutrients), the market will quickly adopt cultured meat and mass produced factory meat is gone. This could happen really quickly. There will always be a market for the really fancy, local "craftsman" meat, and there will be a market for the cheap cultured meat. The factory meat in the middle gets eliminated.

I suggest doing some research on what companies are doing with cultured meat. It's really interesting and is IMO the direction that meat production will inevitably end up in. They are even creating cultured steaks and fish now. Also, if the tech is as clean as it seems like it could be, cultured meat may be the most important technology in climate change and population growth.

There's another thread about food snobbery, and maybe I'm going to sound like a food snob, but I'm skeptical about cultured meat.  I can see how cheap cultured meat could change the market for food, but I have my doubts about scientists doing a better job than nature.  Tang isn't orange juice, vinyl isn't leather, margarine isn't butter, and I seriously doubt scientists can really make cultured meat like a real steak. 

Skepticism aside, having choices is good.  I hope scientists can make a product that helps the environment and that people like.  Some people like Tang and margarine.  Good for them.  Right now, though, my vision of cultured meats ends up being something closer to soylent green than a Porterhouse from the "replicator" Star Trek.  I'd love to be wrong, and have cultured meat turn out to be great, but I think it will happen about the same time as my jetpack.

I tried the White Castle "impossible" burger as well as eating their regular burger. Compared to a regular burger, yes you could tell it wasn't real meat. However, it came a lot closer to tasting like hamburger than most veggie patties do. It was satisfying in that fast food hamburger way. So if you compare it against meat it loses. But it may be a winner for someone who is a vegetarian who hasn't tasted regular meat in months or years who misses eating a hamburger.

[ROF Expat]

We'll have two options in 10 years, ridiculously cheap cultured meat, or much more expensive real meat that is organic, local and sustainably raised.

Why do you think we won't have the option for mass produced animal factory meat?  I don't see those operations going out of business anytime soon because they are the most profitable way to meet the demands of the marketplace, and the marketplace doesn't appear to be changing in the direction you predict.

Well the market for meat hasn't been changing because cultured meat isnt in the market yet.

Generally, we are seeing the extremes of markets do well, either really cheap stuff or really expensive craftsman stuff does well. The stuff in the middle gets squeezed out.

The price of cultured meat has dropped from about $350,000/pound in 2013 to $50 in mid 2018, and according to a friend of mine who works in R+D in the industry at one of the leading cultured meat producers it's actually closer to 30 now. We're going to start seeing it in the market in restaurants and some grocery stores probably this year. As the research continues and more companies enter the research and development of it, the technology will dramatically increase and the price will dramatically decrease. It's very likely that within 10 years the price of a pound of cultured ground beef could be less than a dollar. When the price of cultured meat is less (maybe even significantly cheaper) than the price of ground beef, the mass produced factory meat gets stuck in the middle. If cultured meat costs less and tastes the same (or even better which is very possible given the ability to manipulate taste/nutrients), the market will quickly adopt cultured meat and mass produced factory meat is gone. This could happen really quickly. There will always be a market for the really fancy, local "craftsman" meat, and there will be a market for the cheap cultured meat. The factory meat in the middle gets eliminated.

I suggest doing some research on what companies are doing with cultured meat. It's really interesting and is IMO the direction that meat production will inevitably end up in. They are even creating cultured steaks and fish now. Also, if the tech is as clean as it seems like it could be, cultured meat may be the most important technology in climate change and population growth.

There's another thread about food snobbery, and maybe I'm going to sound like a food snob, but I'm skeptical about cultured meat.  I can see how cheap cultured meat could change the market for food, but I have my doubts about scientists doing a better job than nature.  Tang isn't orange juice, vinyl isn't leather, margarine isn't butter, and I seriously doubt scientists can really make cultured meat like a real steak. 

Skepticism aside, having choices is good.  I hope scientists can make a product that helps the environment and that people like.  Some people like Tang and margarine.  Good for them.  Right now, though, my vision of cultured meats ends up being something closer to soylent green than a Porterhouse from the "replicator" Star Trek.  I'd love to be wrong, and have cultured meat turn out to be great, but I think it will happen about the same time as my jetpack.

Orange juice isn't orange juice either...it's stale sugar water flavoured with customized perfume to smell and taste like orange juice. They even have regional perfume flavours because different populations have different expectations of what orange juice should taste like.

What you think is nature is actually produced by the exact same companies that make literal perfume.
If you were to drink "fresh squeezed" orange juice from the storage tank before the perfume is added, it would taste like sugar water.

People already chow down on hiiiighly chemically processed meat that barely resembles the natural animal source it came from and primarily gets its flavour and texture from science. Just look at how much processed cheese gets consumed, and it barely resembles cheese.

Food that gets its taste from science is already reality, and people shovel it down their gullets by the pound. I doubt they will be able to distinguish a lab sourced hot dog from a pig sourced hot dog, or chicken McNugget, or frozen fish stick, or prefab hamburger patty, etc.

Sure, there might be more of a challenge replicating a filet mignon, but it might cost less and taste better than crappy cuts of beef. Who knows?

However, the reviews on the flavour of the best lab ground beef are already saying that it tastes great. So I don't think that fantastic tasting lab meat is as far off as you think it is.

At the very least, it's already at a level that if it were affordable to produce, it could completely replace cows in all processed meat out there, like fast food chains and frozen meals, which is A LOT of the meat consumed these days.

Malkynn,
Do you have any links or references for reviews describing lab ground beef that tastes great?  The only ones I've seen were a lot more guarded, but also older.  The reviews I've seen for steak are also very limited.  I do agree  that it ought to be easier to make a lab grown facsimile of a highly processed food that bears little resemblance to its origin (like a chicken nugget) than something natural like a chicken wing.  I agree that orange juice (and a lot of other things) is more processed than most people know.  When oranges are in season, I squeeze them for juice.  The stuff sold in most stores tastes ok until you taste it alongside actual fresh squeezed juice.   

[Mississippi Mudstache]

I don't think I'll ever give up eggs. I do buy the free range "organic" eggs (typically Pete and Gerry's)  but I've heard that free range is really not what people envision free range is. Is the only other recourse buying local farm eggs?

Depending on local zoning regulations, you could raise your own chickens.  ;)

That's what we do! We have 11 chickens that provide us all the eggs we could ever eat and then some. They came with the house when we bought it (including the coop), but they still cost us wayyyy more in feed than we could possibly recover in egg value. That's okay, though. They're fun, and there are far more useless pets that one could have.

[Metalcat]

Malkynn,
Do you have any links or references for reviews describing lab ground beef that tastes great?  The only ones I've seen were a lot more guarded, but also older.  The reviews I've seen for steak are also very limited.  I do agree  that it ought to be easier to make a lab grown facsimile of a highly processed food that bears little resemblance to its origin (like a chicken nugget) than something natural like a chicken wing.  I agree that orange juice (and a lot of other things) is more processed than most people know.  When oranges are in season, I squeeze them for juice.  The stuff sold in most stores tastes ok until you taste it alongside actual fresh squeezed juice.   

https://amp.businessinsider.com/taste-test-first-cell-based-clean-sausage-meat-made-without-farm-2018-9

I've read several, but this one about sausages popped up with a quick google. I've never read anything about great lab steaks, just ground and seasoned lab meats.

I already acknowledged that things like a really good cut of steak will be hard to reproduce for some unknown amount of time, but it's a huge stretch to think that people won't eat lab meat because the most high end options are difficult to recreate. 

If it's good enough for processed meats, it's good enough for an enormous amount of the meat that north Americans consume. Most of us aren't eating expensive steaks and prime rib roasts for most meals.

Again, I come back to the example of processed cheese.
Literally no one in the world thinks it tastes like cheese, but that doesn't mean that people don't eat tons of it.

If processed cheese can be a huge success, then lab grown meat can be a much bigger success if it's cheaper than animal meat and tastes as much like meat as the processed "real" stuff.

Is it possible that prime rib will never be replicated? Maybe...

However, you have to remember that they are still working on a very expensive process of just making passable lab meat right now. Once it's dirt cheap and mass produced, that's when they can start focusing their R&D on really experimenting with the taste and expanding their options.

Right now the science is still learning to walk. The real potential won't be realized until it's established enough to run. I'm fascinated to see where it goes.

[sol]

Tang isn't orange juice, vinyl isn't leather, margarine isn't butter, and I seriously doubt scientists can really make cultured meat like a real steak. 

I agree with Malkynn, the goal of laboratory grown meat seems to be chicken nuggets and hot dogs and burgers, not filet mignon.

And unlike the the tang/vinyl/margarine examples above, cultured meat IS real meat.  It is biologically identical animal muscle cells, so I don't see why it shouldn't taste just like it came off of an animal.

I still don't think it will be cheaper than factory farmed meat any time soon.  Chicken warehouses will turn out ten thousand chickens each per week, for very minimal input costs.  Just electricity to run the lights and fans, feed they get as a waste product from the processing plant next door, and some water to hose out the manure.  The chickens magically raise themselves if you leave them alone.

[Metalcat]

Tang isn't orange juice, vinyl isn't leather, margarine isn't butter, and I seriously doubt scientists can really make cultured meat like a real steak. 

I agree with Malkynn, the goal of laboratory grown meat seems to be chicken nuggets and hot dogs and burgers, not filet mignon.

And unlike the the tang/vinyl/margarine examples above, cultured meat IS real meat.  It is biologically identical animal muscle cells, so I don't see why it shouldn't taste just like it came off of an animal.

I still don't think it will be cheaper than factory farmed meat any time soon.  Chicken warehouses will turn out ten thousand chickens each per week, for very minimal input costs.  Just electricity to run the lights and fans, feed they get as a waste product from the processing plant next door, and some water to hose out the manure.  The chickens magically raise themselves if you leave them alone.

Yep.

I expect that some future climate change based policies, subsidies and taxes will play a huge role in the relative affordability of lab meat vs farmed meat.

[sixwings]

Tang isn't orange juice, vinyl isn't leather, margarine isn't butter, and I seriously doubt scientists can really make cultured meat like a real steak. 

I agree with Malkynn, the goal of laboratory grown meat seems to be chicken nuggets and hot dogs and burgers, not filet mignon.

And unlike the the tang/vinyl/margarine examples above, cultured meat IS real meat.  It is biologically identical animal muscle cells, so I don't see why it shouldn't taste just like it came off of an animal.

I still don't think it will be cheaper than factory farmed meat any time soon.  Chicken warehouses will turn out ten thousand chickens each per week, for very minimal input costs.  Just electricity to run the lights and fans, feed they get as a waste product from the processing plant next door, and some water to hose out the manure.  The chickens magically raise themselves if you leave them alone.

Yep, a filet mignon is an example of the "craftsman" meat that will still be around, at least for quite a while, while the cheap stuff will become cultured meat. Things like various kinds of ground meat is a lot easier than creating a marbled ribeye. Factory farms exist to produce the cheap stuff for things like burgers, hot dogs, etc.

I'm not a chicken farmer but I would think there's more costs to do that, there's up front investment costs, feed, travel, butchering, processing, treating the meat to avoid things like e-coli outbreaks, distributing, etc. Cultured meat solves a lot of those problems and theoretically could do that much much cheaper once the tech is established. Like a cultured meat plant could be in downtown New York in a Warehouse and serve it's immediate neighbourhood and eliminate all of those costs. I guess it depends on your definition of "any time soon" is. Like this probably isnt going to be 2025, but i think it's very possible that it's a 2030 thing with how quickly tech is advancing and how much faster it's getting.

The other piece about cultured meat is that it can be manipulated to taste better, last longer, have no food borne diseases like e-coli and add additional nutrients. Want omega 3 in your beef? You got it. It'll probably be better for you than animal meat. The entire processing step gets eliminated when things like e-coli and salmonella aren't a problem and you're not having to figure out the logistics of slaughtering thousands of chickens a minute.

I would not be investing in a meat factory right now. It's going to be either "craftsman" farmers producing high quality meat and dirt cheap cultured meat, IMO in 10 years.

[Metalcat]

Tang isn't orange juice, vinyl isn't leather, margarine isn't butter, and I seriously doubt scientists can really make cultured meat like a real steak. 

I agree with Malkynn, the goal of laboratory grown meat seems to be chicken nuggets and hot dogs and burgers, not filet mignon.

And unlike the the tang/vinyl/margarine examples above, cultured meat IS real meat.  It is biologically identical animal muscle cells, so I don't see why it shouldn't taste just like it came off of an animal.

I still don't think it will be cheaper than factory farmed meat any time soon.  Chicken warehouses will turn out ten thousand chickens each per week, for very minimal input costs.  Just electricity to run the lights and fans, feed they get as a waste product from the processing plant next door, and some water to hose out the manure.  The chickens magically raise themselves if you leave them alone.

Yep, a filet mignon is an example of the "craftsman" meat that will still be around, at least for quite a while, while the cheap stuff will become cultured meat. Things like various kinds of ground meat is a lot easier than creating a marbled ribeye. Factory farms exist to produce the cheap stuff for things like burgers, hot dogs, etc.

I'm not a chicken farmer but I would think there's more costs to do that, there's up front investment costs, feed, travel, butchering, processing, treating the meat to avoid things like e-coli outbreaks, distributing, etc. Cultured meat solves a lot of those problems and theoretically could do that much much cheaper once the tech is established. Like a cultured meat plant could be in downtown New York in a Warehouse and serve it's immediate neighbourhood and eliminate all of those costs. I guess it depends on your definition of "any time soon" is. Like this probably isnt going to be 2025, but i think it's very possible that it's a 2030 thing with how quickly tech is advancing and how much faster it's getting.

The other piece about cultured meat is that it can be manipulated to taste better, last longer, have no food borne diseases like e-coli and add additional nutrients. Want omega 3 in your beef? You got it. It'll probably be better for you than animal meat. The entire processing step gets eliminated when things like e-coli and salmonella aren't a problem and you're not having to figure out the logistics of slaughtering thousands of chickens a minute.

I would not be investing in a meat factory right now. It's going to be either "craftsman" farmers producing high quality meat and dirt cheap cultured meat, IMO in 10 years.

The problem with your filet mignon example is that you need an entire cow to get good cuts and the vast majority of the cow isn't good "craftsman" cuts.

This logic would stand if there were ground beef farms and filet mignon farms, but if lab meat takes out the crappy beef market, then that destroys the value of a lot of the cow.

Who knows though, it's hard to say how it all plays out.
As I said to sol, subsidies and taxes have the potentially to play am enormously modulating role moving forward and who knows how important climate change and fresh water issues will be during elections in a decade or so.

I certainly think that people accepting lab meat is a hell of a lot more likely than people accepting veganism.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out, and what happens with milk and eggs.

[partgypsy]

I don't think I'll ever give up eggs. I do buy the free range "organic" eggs (typically Pete and Gerry's)  but I've heard that free range is really not what people envision free range is. Is the only other recourse buying local farm eggs?

Depending on local zoning regulations, you could raise your own chickens.  ;)

That's what we do! We have 11 chickens that provide us all the eggs we could ever eat and then some. They came with the house when we bought it (including the coop), but they still cost us wayyyy more in feed than we could possibly recover in egg value. That's okay, though. They're fun, and there are far more useless pets that one could have.

I have neighbors with chickens but I wouldn't trust my dog around chickens. We do have a farmers market that will open soon, just more out of laziness I do not shop there on a regular basis.

[ROF Expat]

Tang isn't orange juice, vinyl isn't leather, margarine isn't butter, and I seriously doubt scientists can really make cultured meat like a real steak. 

I agree with Malkynn, the goal of laboratory grown meat seems to be chicken nuggets and hot dogs and burgers, not filet mignon.

And unlike the the tang/vinyl/margarine examples above, cultured meat IS real meat.  It is biologically identical animal muscle cells, so I don't see why it shouldn't taste just like it came off of an animal.

I still don't think it will be cheaper than factory farmed meat any time soon.  Chicken warehouses will turn out ten thousand chickens each per week, for very minimal input costs.  Just electricity to run the lights and fans, feed they get as a waste product from the processing plant next door, and some water to hose out the manure.  The chickens magically raise themselves if you leave them alone.

Yep.

I expect that some future climate change based policies, subsidies and taxes will play a huge role in the relative affordability of lab meat vs farmed meat.

I think this will play a huge role.  So far, though, I would guess that the power of the farm lobby far outweighs that of the climate change lobby at least in a U.S. context.  It might be different in other places.   

[GuitarStv]

Tang isn't orange juice, vinyl isn't leather, margarine isn't butter, and I seriously doubt scientists can really make cultured meat like a real steak. 

I agree with Malkynn, the goal of laboratory grown meat seems to be chicken nuggets and hot dogs and burgers, not filet mignon.

And unlike the the tang/vinyl/margarine examples above, cultured meat IS real meat.  It is biologically identical animal muscle cells, so I don't see why it shouldn't taste just like it came off of an animal.

I still don't think it will be cheaper than factory farmed meat any time soon.  Chicken warehouses will turn out ten thousand chickens each per week, for very minimal input costs.  Just electricity to run the lights and fans, feed they get as a waste product from the processing plant next door, and some water to hose out the manure.  The chickens magically raise themselves if you leave them alone.

Fortunately my consumption of filet mignon is several magnitudes smaller than my consumption of . . . say, ground beef.  Although I may have just revealed my secret low class shame there.

[jeninco]

I don't think I'll ever give up eggs. I do buy the free range "organic" eggs (typically Pete and Gerry's)  but I've heard that free range is really not what people envision free range is. Is the only other recourse buying local farm eggs?

Depending on local zoning regulations, you could raise your own chickens.  ;)

I live in a rural/agricultural area, so I'm very fortunate to have an abundant supply of local eggs.  I can't really drive anywhere without passing a small farmstand, or just a cooler out by the road, with eggs for sale.  Typically in the $2-$4 range.

Similarly with local meat.  I buy pastured chicken, beef, pork, and lamb from local farmers.  It's very expensive compared to what's at the grocery store, but I'm OK with that.  It accurately reflects the cost and value of raising animals in a humane way, eating an appropriate diet (i.e., not subsidized cheap grain feed, the production of which is environmentally questionable), and on a small/local scale.  The economies of scale required for the cheap meat you see in the supermarket require some very unpleasant (IMO) tradeoffs that I'm not willing to support with my wallet.

If you're interested in ethically raised animals for eggs or meat and you live in a more urban area, maybe it's worth exploring surrounding rural communities to see what's available semi-locally?  Does your city have any farmer's markets?

Seconding this: if you want to know where your animal products come from, you have to do a bit more legwork then reading the label on the package in the store. We purchase 1/2 steer each fall from a local rancher who raises and finishes grass-fed cows (i.e. basically no corn).  I've walked through the "processor" (aka "abattoir") and been to the farm, and feel pretty comfortable about how the animals, environment, and people are treated. It's a compromise, for sure but I live in an area where you can thoughtfully graze cattle in ways that are better for the ecosystem then trying to grow crops.

For eggs, your best bet is finding someone with a small flock to buy from (or raising them yourselves).

[Laura Ingalls]

If you meet a crossfitting vegan, which do they tell you about first?

Mind blown.  That's a Sophie's choice level of problem.

He or she will have a CrossFit gym T-shirt on so you will figure that out first.

[Bird In Hand]

If you meet a crossfitting vegan, which do they tell you about first?

Mind blown.  That's a Sophie's choice level of problem.

He or she will have a CrossFit gym T-shirt on so you will figure that out first.

Unless the T-shirt doesn't cover the 'Meat is Murder' tattoo!