Author Topic: Does an electric car make sense for me?  (Read 2244 times)

ericrugiero

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Does an electric car make sense for me?
« on: March 02, 2021, 08:47:15 AM »
The thread in off topic about whether electric cars would ever catch on in the US got me thinking about whether I should consider an electric car when it's time for me to purchase newer car.  It looks like I will be buying something in about a year so this is somewhat theoretical for now. 

I drive a good bit because we live in the country (15 miles to work and 10 miles to town).  I drive some country roads (40-60 mph), some highway (70-80 mph) and a little stop and go traffic in my normal routine.  Total mileage per year is probably around 14,000.  I could charge the car overnight and have plenty of juice for my typical days.  There are some occasional trips of ~50-60 miles (one way) to larger cities that would be closer to max range round trip.  Very few miles on my car are long trips (we take the family vehicle) so long trips would be fairly easy to work around.  Overall, an electric vehicle would be a little extra trouble but definitely possible because well over 95% of my miles are within typical range of an electric vehicle and we will have another vehicle for those longer trips. 

My current thought is to look at a 2018 Toyota Camry (older Camry's get worse gas mileage) which should average about 35 MPG in my typical use and last for many years.  The other option could be a 2018 Nissan Leaf. 

Purchase Price - A quick look online shows they are about the same.  I will shop around for a good deal and probably find something with low miles for ~$14-15,000.  In a year they might both be a little cheaper.  The value on a Leaf might drop faster, so in a year it could be a little cheaper. 
Annual Fuel Cost - Camry would be ~$1,000 (14,000mi/35MPG * $2.50Gal) Leaf would be about $210 charging at home (based on 30 kwh/100mi and $0.0495/kwh).
Annual Maintenance - Probably about even?  I'm guessing here.  Toyota quality is definitely superior to Nissan but an electric vehicle is simpler.  The Leaf wouldn't need oil changes but I would own this vehicle long term and could need to replace batteries eventually.  I do most of my own auto repairs so oil changes, brake pads, etc are relatively cheap.
Depreciation - Big win for the Camry but it's not such a big issue for me because I would probably keep it a long time.  I might get a couple grand more out of the Camry at the end of my ownership (a running Camry will be worth more than a Leaf with bad batteries).
Long term flexibility - The Camry could be a better option for my kids in the future.  I will probably still own it when they go to college so if their college is more than the max range the Camry is more flexible.  The first could go to college in 4 years.  The most likely college for them to go to is about 120 miles away (mostly highway).  The Leaf would likely make it there but would definitely need charged to come home.   
Personal Preference - I'm guessing the Camry would ride a little nicer and have more room in the back seat for my teenage boys.  It also eliminates range anxiety.  The Leaf would be cheaper per mile on fuel.  I've never driven an electric vehicle but the lower noise driving experience (at low speeds) could be nice.  When I get out on the highway (speed limit 70 MPH, actual speed 75-80) the Camry would probably be superior.     

Overall, I'm leaning towards the Camry but the Leaf is probably slightly cheaper in total cost of ownership.  As the time to buy gets closer, I should probably drive both.  It's good to have options. 

Does anyone have any input on my thoughts and quick analysis?  What am I missing? 

Paper Chaser

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Re: Does an electric car make sense for me?
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2021, 09:40:35 AM »
Do you live in a state that charges an extra annual fee to register an EV? There are some states that charge an EV owner over $100/yr to make up for lost fuel taxes. That extra fee can really put a dent in fuel savings advantage that an EV would have over the ICE with cheap fuel.

It's also important to account for loss of range in cold weather due to temps, and on top of that there's also loss of range when the HVAC is running as using heat or AC will really sap the range. 30-40% loss of range isn't unheard of in winter months. That would likely be fine for your standard daily stuff but it's worth being aware of the limitations.

One often overlooked advantage of an EV (that's charged at home) vs an ICE is not having small amounts of time eroded away with fueling or maintenance. That 5 minute fueling stop every week or two is replaced by 5 seconds to plug the vehicle in every night. That couple of hours devoted to an oil change, or brake job doesn't happen. As someone who frequently turns wrenches on my own vehicles and for work, I must say that it's liberating to not have to do as many mundane tasks on my daily drivers.

lifeanon269

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Re: Does an electric car make sense for me?
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2021, 10:25:54 AM »
I own a 2014 Nissan Leaf that I purchased new in April 2014. So I've owned it for about 7 years now. I've put about 46,000 miles on it in that time, but it would probably be more if not for the pandemic since I've been working from home for the last year now. So that 46,000 miles is really about 45,000 miles in 6 years time (about 7500 miles per year). So I don't do a lot of driving since my work commute (when I'm in the office at least) is only about 15 miles round trip. However, when driving around our county with the family, we do usually take my car as opposed to my wife's (an ICE car) to avoid using gas. So it does see the majority of driving on the weeks for family and friend visits, etc.

Prior to purchasing the Leaf, I was concerned about range (my model only gets about 80 miles per charge in ideal conditions). So what I did was for a full year prior to making the purchase, I kept a calendar and marked any days of the year where I would have driven more than 80 miles in a day. What I found was that I only did so for about 5 days that year and all but one of those scenarios we could easily have taken my wife's car instead. So that eased my concerns about range and whether or not the Nissan Leaf could fulfill my needs. Obviously you aren't probably looking to purchase a year out from now, but that certainly helped me feel more comfortable in purchasing a car with an 80 mile range. Ultimately, since it is charged to full every night, it would only be those few days that the Leaf wouldn't meet my needs. As you said, just like in your case, for longer trips, we just use my wife's car.

I haven't really had much range anxiety in it. After driving it for a while you begin to understand and know how far you can go with it and whether it will get you to where you need to go before you even go out in it. So it isn't like I ever am in a situation where I'm stuck out with a dead car. The car is pretty decent at telling you the state of your battery and how far you can go as well. My Nissan Leaf is pretty much the very base model you can get. It doesn't have the fancy computer on the dashboard or anything like that. So all it has is a simple range calculation on the dash screen.

As a side note, since purchasing it, about 2 years in I switched jobs and my new work place even has charging stations at work where I can charge up for free. So that is an awesome benefit that allows me to basically commute for free. But other than that, for the most part, a vast majority of my charging has been done at home on a regular 120V home outlet. I never had a charging station put in and I just use the mobile charging cable that came with my car. Your charging needs ultimately are determined by your driving habits/needs. Since my commute isn't very far each day, simply charging it on a 120V outlet each night is enough for it to be a full charge when I wake up.

From a total cost of ownership perspective, not much beats the Nissan Leaf (and EVs in general). I live in a colder climate (Northeast US) so that certainly helps with battery longevity, but after 7 years of ownership, my battery hasn't seen a bit of degradation and it still holds a full charge. So that is awesome, maybe I'm lucky there. IDK. But I don't see myself needing a new battery even after 10 years of use. In the 7 years I've owned it, I've only needed to change my tires and brakes. That's it. Not a single thing else has needed maintenance (oh, wiper fluid, does that count? lol). Again, maybe I am lucky there, but given the lack of total moving parts in an EV, I would say I'm probably more typical than not. There really just isn't as much maintenance required in an EV. I just drive where I need to and it gets me to where I need to go and I plug it in when I'm done. And I charge up at home or at work, so it is nice not ever having to drive out of my way to refuel.

Winter times really do hinder the range. As the previous post mentioned, my range gets cut by 30-40% in colder temperatures. It is a combination of the extreme cold temperatures and the need to use the climate control that hampers the range. I find that right around freezing temperature is where range starts to really decrease. Once you get in to sub-freezing temperatures, you'll really need to adjust your range expectations. Also, another big factor in how far you can drive is the speed at which you drive. If you're cutting it close in how far you think you can go, getting off the highway and taking side roads, even if it isn't as direct of a route, can often give you a much greater range by driving slower. Driving at 65+ mph in any conditions will definitely not get you the advertised range.

I also like the hatchback design of the Leaf. You can look it up on the internet to see other similar experiences, but I can really haul a ton of cargo with the hatchback design of the Leaf with the back seats that fold down. Each spring I'll easily fit 12+ bags of mulch and plants and other large loads like that with ease. So that is another benefit of the Leaf versus something like the Camry.

For me personally, after owning an EV, I don't see myself ever owning another ICE car again. I feel like it would be going back to a flip phone after owning a smartphone for so long. As long as your expectations are set accordingly, IMO, an EV is hands down a better car than an ICE. But like anything, it isn't a good fit for every situation or for every person/driver.

If you have any questions about the Leaf or EV driving in particular, let me know. I hope that helps.

ericrugiero

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Re: Does an electric car make sense for me?
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2021, 11:54:24 AM »
Thanks for input folks.  Question - the battery life depends on how it's used and the temperature right?  The range is reduced significantly when temps are cold.  Does using the battery in cold weather hurt the battery over time?  How about hot weather?  Hot weather is what really damages the battery over time correct?  If I leave work in July at 93° F and drive 75 MPH with the A/C on, does that harm the battery significantly?  That type of driving would happen 2-3 weeks per year with maybe another 4-5 weeks in the 80's. 

lifeanon269

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Re: Does an electric car make sense for me?
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2021, 12:39:46 PM »
Thanks for input folks.  Question - the battery life depends on how it's used and the temperature right?  The range is reduced significantly when temps are cold.  Does using the battery in cold weather hurt the battery over time?  How about hot weather?  Hot weather is what really damages the battery over time correct?  If I leave work in July at 93° F and drive 75 MPH with the A/C on, does that harm the battery significantly?  That type of driving would happen 2-3 weeks per year with maybe another 4-5 weeks in the 80's.

I don't think using the battery in cold weather harms the battery much, at least not in my experience since I get pretty extreme winters where I am at. I believe cold temperatures can actually help preserve battery life, which might help explain my personal experience with my car. From what I've heard it is mostly heat extremes that have the most damaging impacts on the battery (think Arizona summers).

It sounds like by what you describe, your summers probably aren't too much different than mine. We get a handful of 90 degree days each year and quite a few days in the 80s. Ideal environment temperature for the battery is around 70-75 degrees, so I don't think temperatures in the 80's are that bad for it, but once you get higher than that it can have a slight impact on battery life. That being said, we're not talking about massive differences here. This is a good breakdown on battery life across EV fleets and what impacts different uses have.

https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/

Icecreamarsenal

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Re: Does an electric car make sense for me?
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2021, 09:02:00 PM »
I own an electric car, rhymes with Mesla, 65,000 miles in 3 years, and will never again buy an ICE car (although, a Miata for fun is never out of the picture because Miata.)  This is not because of brand hypnosis (I'll take an electric Honda odyssey any day of the week) or some calling to do good by decreasing overall pollution.

It is because you never have to go the gas station ever again (unless you smoke or play the lottery, which may slow down your road to FI.)
You charge at home and go about your merry way the next day.
They just...work better.  They're faster, more efficient, and impossible to commit suicide in by turning it on and closing the garage door.
You can go car camping in them.  That's a newish thing now, because EVs and climate control go well together.
It's cheaper to fill up your battery than it is to fill up your gas tank.

What about my annual 500 mile road trip, you ask?  Well, don't use your EV then.  Or don't get one.  I did fine on my annual 500 mile trips down the eastern seaboard because of Tesla's supercharging infrastructure.

In case you do want to be a do-gooder and aren't sure whether EVs are better for the environment:
https://youtu.be/mk-LnUYEXuM

begood

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Re: Does an electric car make sense for me?
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2021, 06:31:33 AM »
We've had a 2016 Leaf for about 18 months. It's perfect for my husband's very short commute, but if you go the Leaf route, definitely get a newer model with longer range. But we have needed to do literally NO maintenance on it since we bought it in Aug 2019. It's a little workhorse that gets him around town and back and forth to work.

His workplace has a charging station that employees can use for free, which is a big benefit. If need be, we charge using a regular 120V outlet in the garage.

Oh! Best tip we got about winter driving: don't use the climate system and instead use the seat heaters!
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 06:36:15 AM by begood »

RelaxedGal

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Re: Does an electric car make sense for me?
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2021, 07:35:47 AM »
TLDR; Yes it will work for you.  Especially with a second vehicle in the home. 

Overly long answer:
I live in the Northeast, near Boston.  Feb 2015 to November 2018 I drove a 2012 Nissan Leaf, with an EPA 73 mile range.  My office is 17 miles from home but that's about all of the driving I do; I put 10,000 miles/year on that car.  That model had resistive heat (a heating element, instead of the heat pump available on higher end cars).  Even on our coldest days (-4 or -7F, I forget which) she started fine, though the dash display came up slowly.  The 2012 had the original battery chemistry and degraded unfortunately quickly.  I forget the stats, but she hit the warranty definition of "not enough battery" right about when I traded her in for a 2019 Leaf.  What prompted the decision to upgrade?  A very cold snap, the realization that I'd have to charge at work (at a price roughly double home charging) on very cold days because the range would be about 35 miles, and the lower control arms needed to be replaced to the tune of $1000.  I'm told that's common on Nissans, but on top of the range issue and with a trade in value of a couple thousand it didn't seem worthwhile to put money into an old car.

I now drive a 2019 Leaf with a 150 mile EPA range, and that heat pump.  The newer battery chemistry (started in 2013 or 2014?) is supposed to degrade much more slowly.  I plan to drive the car until, like my 2012, the range is too low or the repairs are too expensive which should be at about 15 years old.  We drive the car anywhere less than an hour away, but I'll admit that I'm more likely to be stuck in slow traffic than zipping along at 80mph.

Electric cars are fun to drive. If you can take a drive in a friend's definitely do so.  Heck, if you post in you local Facebook Buy Nothing group that you're thinking of buying an electric car and want to test drive a real person's car without the sales pressure, I'm sure several people would offer to let you drive theirs.  Especially Tesla drivers, and Teslas are VERY fun! If you want the fun of electric but want your kid to be able to drive it to college consider a Chevy Volt.  Discontinued in 2019, with a 53 mile electric range (perfect for your day-to-day) and gas for longer trips.  This was my second choice when I bought my 2019 Leaf, but because we have a second car I didn't need the ability to go 200 miles at a moment's notice. 

And Yes you can get by with the included charger plugged into a 120v outlet.  You should be able to add about 40 miles of range/night with that.  However we installed the cheapest Clipper Creek (LCS-20) which pumps more power to the car when pre-heating before work.  One of the oh-so-pampered aspects of the Leaf, in addition to the heated seats and heated steering wheel, is the ability to pre-heat or pre-cool your car from wall power.  In my 2012 that preheat was MUCH warmer with the 3.3 kW charger than the 1.4(?) kW included one. 

HenryDavid

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Re: Does an electric car make sense for me?
« Reply #8 on: March 03, 2021, 08:27:48 AM »
Assuming one must have a car, these EVs look really smart.

As someone with long-time car-free experience, I can’t wait for rental companies to catch up and stock lots of these. Then it will be easy to bike for under 10k trips and rent for our weekly out of the city adventures . . . without fossil fuel use. Bring it on.

Greystache

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Re: Does an electric car make sense for me?
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2021, 08:41:57 AM »
Do you plan to have more than one car or is this going to be your only car?  If I was to have only one car, I would get a plug in hybrid. If I was going to have two or more, I would have one ICE car for long range and an electric car for everything else.

WanderLucky

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Re: Does an electric car make sense for me?
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2021, 07:43:40 PM »
I've been doing this same research and was leaning towards a Chevy Volt, the plug-in hybrid. But since talking to EV owners, I'm going to go for the Chevy Bolt, which is all electric. I do have a road trip van as a backup so that helps make the decision easy for me. Plus the Bolt gets great reviews and has 259 mile range on a full charge. Also here in the PNW, there are the super fast chargers everywhere if I need to take a longer than expected trip.

Abe

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Re: Does an electric car make sense for me?
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2021, 09:24:29 PM »
Consider the Prius plug-in hybrid, especially if they will let you charge at work. You'd almost never use the gas engine, saving wear on it, but would have it when needed. I have one and am very happy with it (though my commute is less than yours).

mwulff

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Re: Does an electric car make sense for me?
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2021, 02:35:32 AM »
I think an EV makes perfect sense for you. It will easily outlast any ICE vehicle you might buy at the same price.

What is really important is to be aware of how your ev manages its battery. If you live in a warm climate this is even more important.

EV's with no thermal battery management:

- Nissan Leaf (Do not buy if you live in texas)

Ev's with an aircooled battery:

Hyundai Ioniq (28 kWh)
BMW I3 (IIRC)

Ev's with a liquid cooled battery:

Everyone else including GM, Tesla, Other Hyundais, Kias and VW's

---

Now a Leaf is cheap and cheerful and with tax-incentives in the US it's almost a no brainer to get a 42 kWh or a 64kWh. Over its lifetime it will beat the living daylights out of any gas car you can buy wrt costs.

Now my personal choice for a cheap and cheerful ev would be the Hyundai Ioniq 28kWh model if you can find it. I don't know if it was sold in the US but if it was get one. It has the same range as a 42kWh Leaf and it charges insanely fast, almost comparable to a Tesla Model 3 if measured by miles/minute of charging.

If you wish for more range consider the Kia e-Niro or the Hyundai Kona and if you want the best possible experience get a Tesla Model 3 SR. The prices are comparable.

My advice is to look at the incentives in your state, but I strongly suspect that buying a brand new EV is the cheapest option.

Whatever you do skip the plugin-hybrid headache and go directly to EV. Everyday I see ev forums filled with hybrid owners looking to unload their cars as they grow tired of servicing a gas engine the need once a year.



Focus_on_the_fire

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Re: Does an electric car make sense for me?
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2021, 10:19:05 AM »
What is the life span of an EV? I was wondering how old an EV is too old. Thanks

NorthernMonkey

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Re: Does an electric car make sense for me?
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2021, 11:52:37 PM »
What is the life span of an EV? I was wondering how old an EV is too old. Thanks

depends on battery life. The batterys age faster in high temps that lower temps. In texas, theyll wear in 8 years, other places, much longer.

All of the other car bits other than the engine are just like any other car, so after 100,000 miles expect all the same problems you get from other cars. Expensive suspension or non-powertrain related electrical faults will probably kill them first.

mwulff

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Re: Does an electric car make sense for me?
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2021, 01:29:28 AM »
What is the life span of an EV? I was wondering how old an EV is too old. Thanks

There are Teslas that have driven 1 million miles, but that is still a rarity.

In general I would expect cars with liquid cooled batteries to last well into the 500.000 miles range without much maintenance.

Suspension-parts will eventually wear out, but they are relatively cheap and easy to fix.

The electric motor, inverter and battery will probably last well over 1 million miles while the weak spots will be the chassis and the suspension.

Electric cars are much harder to kill and way cheaper to maintain and run. I fully expect to get 20 years of life out of my EV.

PS. What kills most 100.000 mile ICE cars are expensive repairs to either the engine or the gearbox. Components that an EV does not have.

Bird In Hand

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Re: Does an electric car make sense for me?
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2021, 11:39:10 AM »
Annual Fuel Cost - Camry would be ~$1,000 (14,000mi/35MPG * $2.50Gal) Leaf would be about $210 charging at home (based on 30 kwh/100mi and $0.0495/kwh).
...
Does anyone have any input on my thoughts and quick analysis?  What am I missing?

Are you sure your kWh figure is correct?  And does it include both the supply and distribution charges?  Where I live the total cost per kWh is about 20 cents (US), though that's more than most places in the US.

ericrugiero

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Re: Does an electric car make sense for me?
« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2021, 02:37:01 PM »
Annual Fuel Cost - Camry would be ~$1,000 (14,000mi/35MPG * $2.50Gal) Leaf would be about $210 charging at home (based on 30 kwh/100mi and $0.0495/kwh).
...
Does anyone have any input on my thoughts and quick analysis?  What am I missing?

Are you sure your kWh figure is correct?  And does it include both the supply and distribution charges?  Where I live the total cost per kWh is about 20 cents (US), though that's more than most places in the US.

From the website of my electric provider. 

"Residential rate schedule
Effective May 1, 2020
(Policy 450 Attachment 1)
Residential Service
Distribution charges:
Fixed charge: $28
kWh charge:
 Under 500 kWh: $0.0495
 Over 500 kWh: $0.0350"


I didn't included the $28 distribution charge because we will pay it regardless.  The added cost would just be the additional kwh's we use. 
« Last Edit: March 08, 2021, 03:04:08 PM by ericrugiero »

Bird In Hand

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Re: Does an electric car make sense for me?
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2021, 06:57:54 PM »

From the website of my electric provider. 

"Residential rate schedule
Effective May 1, 2020
(Policy 450 Attachment 1)
Residential Service
Distribution charges:
Fixed charge: $28
kWh charge:
 Under 500 kWh: $0.0495
 Over 500 kWh: $0.0350"


I didn't included the $28 distribution charge because we will pay it regardless.  The added cost would just be the additional kwh's we use.

I think those charges may be all distribution charges.  Elsewhere in your bill you will see a separate charge for supply, which may be referred to as generation/transmission charges, among other things.  If I had to guess, the supply charges are equal to or greater than the distribution charges.  You're probably paying >10 cents per kWh total, and potentially well beyond that if you don't use much (due to the high fixed $28 charge).

Another thing I didn't see mentioned was insurance cost.  The Leaf is notoriously expensive to repair (I'm talking about body damage -- no idea about battery/motor damage), and you might find that it costs substantially more to insure than a similar ICE econobox of another make.  However this seems to vary by location.

lifeanon269

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Re: Does an electric car make sense for me?
« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2021, 07:45:29 PM »
I think those charges may be all distribution charges.  Elsewhere in your bill you will see a separate charge for supply, which may be referred to as generation/transmission charges, among other things.  If I had to guess, the supply charges are equal to or greater than the distribution charges.  You're probably paying >10 cents per kWh total, and potentially well beyond that if you don't use much (due to the high fixed $28 charge).

Another thing I didn't see mentioned was insurance cost.  The Leaf is notoriously expensive to repair (I'm talking about body damage -- no idea about battery/motor damage), and you might find that it costs substantially more to insure than a similar ICE econobox of another make.  However this seems to vary by location.

Not sure if this is the case for this ericrugiero, but there are many municipal owned utilities in the country that are capable of delivering low-preference-priced electricity to their customers that are often 1/3 of the price of commerical power in the next town over. For example, electricity costs from the local commercial utility company in my area costs me about $0.12-0.15 per KWh. This includes the electricity cost and delivery cost. But a local village a couple miles from me has municipal own electric and is capable of delivering power to their customers at about $0.05 per KWh. It is basically "owned" by the residents similar to how a credit union's ownership is "owned" by its members and because of this non-profit status and low-preference pricing it receives from the power plant, it's electricity prices are dirt cheap.


As far as the repair costs go, I can't make a claim to what the repair costs of my Leaf would be as I haven't needed to have any (knock on wood!). But as far as the actual insurance costs go, I own a 2014 Nissan Leaf and my wife owns a 2013 Hyundai Sonata (similar years and mileage). The premium on the Sonata is about 20% more for the same exact coverage. That's also before you factor in the EV discount that my insurance company applies to my policy because the Leaf is an EV (although it is just a few bucks off). So I don't think insurance costs is really something that should at all sway the decision one way or the other for EV versus ICE.

Bird In Hand

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Re: Does an electric car make sense for me?
« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2021, 09:10:14 PM »
My google-fu says the quoted kWh rate in this case is only for distribution.  If he's doing an analysis of annual costs he should use the correct rate for electricity.  Being off by 100% would be a bummer.

Same with insurance.  There are many reasons why insuring a particular car of a particular year in a particular location may cost more or less than another car.  In my area I was quoted a couple hundred more per year for a Leaf vs both a Civic and a Corolla, all within 1 model year of each other.  On the other hand, I know from prior experience in a different area that Civics can be more expensive to insure than other similar small cars of different makes.

lifeanon269

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Re: Does an electric car make sense for me?
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2021, 05:35:41 AM »
My google-fu says the quoted kWh rate in this case is only for distribution.  If he's doing an analysis of annual costs he should use the correct rate for electricity.  Being off by 100% would be a bummer.

Same with insurance.  There are many reasons why insuring a particular car of a particular year in a particular location may cost more or less than another car.  In my area I was quoted a couple hundred more per year for a Leaf vs both a Civic and a Corolla, all within 1 model year of each other.  On the other hand, I know from prior experience in a different area that Civics can be more expensive to insure than other similar small cars of different makes.

Were you comparing the insurance premiums for new(ish) cars? EV MSRPs are usually quite a bit more expensive than their ICE vehicle counterparts, so the insurance premiums comparatively will be quite a bit more (on average about 23% more according to one website that looked across insurance agencies). But EVs usually depreciate quicker, so when comparing the insurance premiums of comparative cars, for used cars EVs quickly become cheaper to insure as they depreciate. The KBB value on my Leaf, even though it has a little less miles and is a year newer is valued at about $6000 and my wife's 2013 Hyundai Sonata is valued at about $7500. This is likely why in my case the premium on my Leaf is less. In this case the OP is looking to purchase a used EV and a used Camry, so I don't think the insurance premiums here will have that discrepancy now that they're closer in value to each other. Nevertheless, that is a good point you made that if you're purchasing new and comparing the total costs of ownership between an EV and ICE, it would be wise to look at insurance costs too.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!