The Money Mustache Community
General Discussion => Welcome and General Discussion => Topic started by: Exhale on March 29, 2015, 09:26:04 AM
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I love to do day hikes (no camping), but since my divorce have been scared to go alone. (I live in the PNW - love the mountains and beaches we have for hiking.) I'm a short female and feel at a disadvantage (my worry is human predators) out alone on the trail, but I miss hiking too much for this to stop me. Anyone have tips on how to do solo hiking without worrying too much?
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It depends on where you want to hike. Are you concerned about animal and/or human predators? Communication if you are injured, sick, or lost?
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It depends on where I hike. There are some very busy and popular hikes around where I live, and I feel comfortable on those alone.
Long multi-days? I tried one alone in college and ended up having some creeper in a truck try and follow me to my camp. I hid in a tree. That being said, being armed goes a long way to feeling more comfortable (for me) and having a self defense background. Doesn't mean I won't try to avoid confrontation by hiding and waiting though!
If it's a single day hike on a more secluded trail, I try to borrow a friend's big boxer and bring my gun (depending on land ownership obvs). The dog is a sweet goof, but she looks mean and is huge.
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It depends on where you want to hike. Are you concerned about animal and/or human predators? Communication if you are injured, sick, or lost?
Great questions - just updated my OP to answers the questions:
- Human predators are my fear
- I love day hikes (no camping, maybe car camping someday)
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get some pepper spray, thats nasty stuff
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It depends on where I hike. There are some very busy and popular hikes around where I live, and I feel comfortable on those alone.
If it's a single day hike on a more secluded trail, I try to borrow a friend's big boxer and bring my gun (depending on land ownership obvs). The dog is a sweet goof, but she looks mean and is huge.
Thank you for responding. Wish I had a friend with a big Boxer dog!
I do have self-defense training which has been very helpful (practically and psychologically).
I tried the well-used trails and found that, unless they're super busy, I'm not comfortable (but super busy trails don't make for the most enjoyable hikes). I never ever thought I'd consider owning a gun, but the thought has actually crossed my mind. The big dog approach is attractive though often they're banned from NPs and beaches. However, I'm willing to find the dog friendly places so I can get outside.
Thanks again for the reply - very helpful.
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get some pepper spray, thats nasty stuff
Does that feel like enough to keep you safe when hiking alone? I must say I prefer that over a gun.
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I would think hikers have a much lower asshole/criminal quotient than the general populace. That said, urban defenses like panic whistles and whatnot might not be that effective out in the wilderness.
It's not something that would even occur to me, but I think that's me being a (large) male talking.
I wouldn't let it get in the way, but perhaps learn some basic self defense and always have a contact back home that you check in with so that if something does go awry, people know where you were planning to be.
There are some past self-defense threads around here. Based on those, I wouldn't do pepper spray. So easy to incapacitate yourself instead, and hard to deploy quickly. A small hand-to-hand weapon like a kubotan kept on a keychain can de devastating with even a little training.
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I too am short & female. I'm also in my late 60's & walk trails & parks alone. I always carry my cellphone & my small concealed handgun. Training is imperative; I'm CHL certified & practice. Lately I've joined the DIVA-WOW group, which is a female group for outdoor activities, including shooting leagues & education.
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I often hike solo and am also female. I try to always let someone know of my plans. If my plans change, and I am out of cell range, I will leave a note on the dash of my vehicle saying what my plans are, what time I left on the hike, when I should return, and an emergency contact number.
Last summer, I climbed 23 peaks, at least half of them solo. I had no issues with other humans.
In 15 years of hiking here in the southern Rockies, I have only had one slightly uncomfortable encounter with another human. I was on a trail that was unfamiliar to me and is not a popular one. I came upon a guy who had set up a long term camp. He was probably harmless, but seeing him and his camp gave me pause. Nothing happened--I continued on, and all was well.
Good luck!
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This is a bit tangential: in my area, search and rescue missions can be VERY costly (involving helicopters, snowmobiles, etc.) and sometime the costs are passed on to the person who was rescued. So we have the option to buy a Colorado Search and Rescue card. It costs $3 per year. I carry it with me when hiking.
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good pepper spray is so intense, it will stop anyone. dont get the 2 dollar one from walmart, get some bear spray from the wilderness store. i think you might have to use it to understand its stopping power.
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A personal protection course where you get physical practice is a good idea. Even tho I carry, using it isn't always possible & is a last resort.
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Pepper spray. In Canada we carry it in bear country.
Enjoy your hikes,
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I'm female, often hike, trail run in remote areas ... and I always carry a handgun. I's not for everyone, I grew up with guns and have always been comfortable around them, have had a concealed weapon permit for 20 years... I'm not advocating for everyone to carry a gun, but if its something you feel comfortable with, I'd encourage you to look into it... I have a few that I choose from depending on my needs, but a .38 is a great place to start if you want reliable, basic protection...
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I've hiked by myself for a long time, and have had many, many happy days doing that, and no misadventures.
As far as safety goes, I am more comfortable on relatively remote trails. I stay away from situations that it would be easy to get hurt in -- either because of the trail or because of people conditions (e.g., drug problems) nearby. I wear really good boots, for comfort and safety. I absolutely avoid party weekends (here that is 24th of May and Aug 1 long weekends) and usually avoid parts of the Rockies where grizzlies are more common. I have often hiked with a dog, though most dogs enjoy 2 to 3 hours, not all day. I'm careful in hunting season.
I've know two people who have lost relatives who were hiking. Both times they were hiking with someone else, and one of the two fell and the other was killed trying to catch them or rescue them.
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A warm thank you to everyone who has posted. I'll research all of the suggestions. I already feel that I'm getting part of my life back - thank you so much!
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My brother dated a very tiny girl, and she carried a taser instead of a gun. That might be an option.
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My brother dated a very tiny girl, and she carried a taser instead of a gun. That might be an option.
I'd definitely look into this option if you aren't comfortable with a gun!
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If you're not comfortable going alone, then don't! Find some like-minded individuals that you can go hiking with. It'd probably be more fun with a friend or two, and then you're not alone.
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I don't have a lot to offer from my perspective (6'4" & 265 male) but I really encourage you to find something that allows you to feel comfortable doing something you enjoy.
My first thought was bear mace. It's perfectly legitimate to carry in the woods, though I'm unclear on legality in the US. I've done a lot of long-term camping and working in the woods here in BC and Alberta, and bear mace is great for peace of mind - though I've seen a lot more people mace themselves than interact with a bear. Be careful and know how to use it before you begin. Personally I sleep much better in a tent with some bear spray ready to hand, though I've never needed it in hundreds of bear encounters.
A gun might be right for you, but if you aren't completely comfortable with it then it becomes a weapon for someone else more than yourself.
Of course everyone should take some basic self defense. There is a very good women's self defense course in the Gracie jiu-jitsu program - 12 weeks and all the women I know who've taken it speak very highly of it.
Do whatever you need to do to feel comfortable having fun in the woods.
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Personally I sleep much better in a tent with some bear spray ready to hand, though I've never needed it in hundreds of bear encounters.
Holy smokes!! Really??
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I'm a small woman (under 5') and I hike occasionally without another human but usually have my big goofy black lab. He's harmless but he's also very aware if other people are around. I've never had much of a problem. I don't carry a gun - I'd probably end up shooting myself with it. I wouldn't travel too remote or back country camp by myself but 6 hour day hikes aren't' out of the question for me.
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I don't have a lot to offer from my perspective (6'4" & 265 male) but I really encourage you to find something that allows you to feel comfortable doing something you enjoy.
My first thought was bear mace. It's perfectly legitimate to carry in the woods, though I'm unclear on legality in the US. I've done a lot of long-term camping and working in the woods here in BC and Alberta, and bear mace is great for peace of mind - though I've seen a lot more people mace themselves than interact with a bear. Be careful and know how to use it before you begin. Personally I sleep much better in a tent with some bear spray ready to hand, though I've never needed it in hundreds of bear encounters.
A gun might be right for you, but if you aren't completely comfortable with it then it becomes a weapon for someone else more than yourself.
Of course everyone should take some basic self defense. There is a very good women's self defense course in the Gracie jiu-jitsu program - 12 weeks and all the women I know who've taken it speak very highly of it.
Do whatever you need to do to feel comfortable having fun in the woods.
In many states bear mace is legal even in states that pepper spray is not. As a small woman, I'd also recommend the bear mace. In addition there are meet ups that do hiking, many that is something to consider?
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A can of bear spray will shoot out 30 feet.
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I’ve hiked alone for years. I have never had a bad encounter with anyone, but I have sometimes been fearful. I used to hike and camp alone in remote areas, but I started feeling as though my luck was eventually going to run out – not just human encounters, but also wildlife encounters, and the possibility of injuring myself and unable to hike out.
Nowadays I mostly hike in popular areas when alone, and usually don’t feel threatened by people. I do worry sometimes about wildlife in areas close to the metro area, because wildlife in these areas are accustomed to people, but will generally avoid a group of hikers. Occasionally a runner will get attacked. I’ve never yet had an encounter, but have felt paranoid during a hike about mountain lions lurking in rock or veg cover along a trail. I’ve thought about bringing pepper spray, but a lion would take me out before I could even thinking about reaching for the spray. These kind of encounters are rare, so my paranoia is probably out of proportion to the likelihood of an encounter.
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Another short female here. I have hiked alone before, but due to safety concerns (yes, human predators) I try to avoid it.
Plug your zip code into the meetup.com site for local hiking groups to join. Contact the leaders in advance to ask about the group's hiking style (pace, attitude towards taking breaks, etc.). Also not a bad idea to ask whether leaders are trained in first aid, does anyone pre-hike the trail before the official hike date so they know what conditions to expect, do they use sweeps, etc.
These groups can be a mixed bag, so know what you're getting into in advance :) I've had a mixture of amazing and miserable experiences with different groups in my area.
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I've hiked alone a few times and find it peaceful. The only times I've ever felt unsafe when hiking were when I was with others, but there were external circumstances - a bear was following us (we kept catching it peeking at us from behind things), a windstorm started up and just about pushed us off a cliff (I was hanging onto a bush), I lost the trail and tumbled down a ravine into a swamp. Those are the only three hikes that come to mind for "unsafe".
I would make double sure you have plenty of supplies if you're alone, because you lose the ability to have, say, your partner hike out and get help if you break your leg or something. So bring plenty of food/water, a medical kit, and something for navigation (gps or maps/compass), rain gear, fire starter, whistle, etc.
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If you're not comfortable going alone, then don't! Find some like-minded individuals that you can go hiking with. It'd probably be more fun with a friend or two, and then you're not alone.
This is a safety issue not preference issue. I'm an introvert - love being alone.
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Generally yes, though I'm in Germany if it makes a difference. I do make it a point to be aware of my surroundings, make direct eye contact with people when I encounter them so they know I am aware of them, etc. I am a woman.
My DH knows my standard trails, and these are usually not more than about 5 miles, with no extreme terrain or anything dangerous . They are also not isolated, so I don't have to worry much about needing supplies.
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I've hiked alone a few times and find it peaceful.
I would make double sure you have plenty of supplies if you're alone, because you lose the ability to have, say, your partner hike out and get help if you break your leg or something. So bring plenty of food/water, a medical kit, and something for navigation (gps or maps/compass), rain gear, fire starter, whistle, etc.
- Yes, love the peace! Prefer to hike with people who can enjoy being quiet.
- Great point about extra supplies. I always have supplies, but doubling amount of some items is excellent advice.
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I am constantly encouraged to "find a friend" to hike/camp/bike with because "it will be more fun". As an introvert, I just don't think that way.
I would also suggest bringing along a light--just in case something happens and you are stuck somewhere all night.
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... My first thought was bear mace. It's perfectly legitimate to carry in the woods [...] here in BC and Alberta...
Whether you can legally carry bear spray in Canada is complicated and depends on a variety of factors. It unfortunately is not a simple topic.
In Canada, pursuant to s 91(27) of the Constitution Act, 1867, "the criminal law" is under exclusive federal jurisdiction and provinces do not have the ability to create crimes. However, provinces are responsible for prosecuting crimes and administering courts for that purpose pursuant to s 92(14) of the same document. In Canada, "criminal law" has a far more narrow meaning than in most countries, with the result that provinces often do enact laws that would be considered criminal law in other countries, pursuant to s 92(15), with authorises provinces to impose "Punishment by Fine, Penalty, or Imprisonment for enforcing any Law of the Province" so long as the underlying law is within provincial competence.
The net effect of the constitutional provisions is that a full analysis would have to consider both federal and provincial laws that may apply. I am not going to consider provincial law, however.
In terms of federal law, ss 88-92 of the Criminal Code, RSC 1985, c C-4, could each potentially criminalise carrying bear spray, in the woods or otherwise, if the various requirements are met.
Section 88 makes it a crime to possess a weapon "for a purpose dangerous to the public peace". For the purpose of this provision, a "weapon" is defined in s 2 as "any thing used, designed to be used or intended for use (a) in causing death or injury to any person, or (b) for the purpose of threatening or intimidating any person". You could argue that bear spray is not "designed to be" for either of those purposes, but it would still be a weapon if it was actually used or intended for use for causing injury to a person or actually used for the purpose of threatening or intimidating any person. If you brandished or intended to bradish bear spray to fend off a threatening person, a prosecutor could argue that the spray is a weapon by virtue of having been "used...or intended for use...for the purpose of threatening or intimidating...". If the prosecutor proves the bear spray was a weapon, they still need to prove that you possessed it "for a purpose dangerous to the public peace". If the purpose was self-defence, you may be in the clear as far as s 88 is concerned.
Section 90 is less generous. This section makes it a crime to to "carry" a "weapon" "concealed". To prevail here, the prosecutor would have to show that (1) you were carrying the bear spray, (2) the bear spray was concealed, and (3) the bear spray was a weapon because it was used or intended for use in causing injury or for the purpose of threatening or intimidating, etc. The prosecutor does not need to show that you actually made use of the bear spray so long as it was used or intended to be used for purpose of threatening, intimidating, etc., or if it was intended to be used in causing injury. As a practical matter, if all the person does is carry the bear spray, it might be difficult for the prosecution to prove the intent of the accused. Browsing the case law, it appears the usual way this is done is that the accused is an idiot and admits to the police that they are carrying the bear spray to defend against people. The police then testify at trial to prove the necessary criminal intent.
Section 91(2) could also be relevant, although I think it would be harder to prove. This section makes it a crime to "possess[] ... a prohibited weapon". To prevail here, the prosecution only needs to show that you (1) possessed the bear spray, and (2) that the bear spray was a "prohibited weapon". Section 84 says that a "prohibited weapon" means (among other things) a "weapon" that is prescribed by the regulations to a prohibited weapon. So the prosecution needs to show that the bear spray is (i) a weapon (like before), but also that it is (ii) prescribed to be a prohibited weapon by some validly-enacted regulation. SOR/98-462 is a regulation that prescribes prohibited weapons in Part 3, including, in paragraph 1 of Part 3, "[a]ny device designed to be used for the purpose of injuring, immobilizing or otherwise incapacitating any person" through liquid, spray, powder, or similar substance. I would think prosecutors would have a hard time proving this charge because the accused would argue that bear spray was not "designed to be used" on people (keep in mind that this is not a requirement for the other charges discussed). However, the potential use of this charge is not purely academic. In R. v. Bagnulo, [2012] OJ No 6328, the accused plead guilty to possessing a prohibited weapon, namely bear spray, contrary to s 91(2). Since it was a guilty plea, the Court did not discuss the merits of the charge.
I have reviewed some case law and that review mainly makes me question the competence of the lawyers who defended these accused persons, because it does not appear that any defence lawyer ever challenged whether bear spray was a "weapon" or a "prohibited weapon". This was just taken for granted. In R. v. Weston, 2012 ONCJ 811, the judge comments on this and notes that counsel made no attempt to help him understand whether the bear spray met the requirements of the statute. However, the judge satisfied himself that the statutory requirements were met. Since the accused did not make any arguments on this topic, this review would not be as thorough as if the accused were represented by competent defence counsel (which is apparently rare in Canada; see also pleading guilty to the dubious charge above).
That is just federal law. Provinces also have laws that may make bear spray illegal under various conditions.
In summary, it's complicated whether carrying these sprays is legal in Canada -- it's not a simple "yes" or "no" answer.
[By the way, for anybody who might be curious, the section symbol (§) is not used in Canadian legal writing, which is why I use it in my US posts but not my Canadian ones. I also follow other Canadian stylistic conventions in my Canadian posts like bold-italics for case names.]
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I hike a lot here in Switzerland, sometimes alone sometimes with a friend. I've never even considered human danger, but then I'm a young tall male and this is one of the lowest crime areas on the planet. Is there really a serious chance of that kind of danger on trails in US? Large animals is a different matter, but we don't have those either. What I am sometimes concerned about on particularly remote trails is accidents. Usually there is a cell phone coverage even in remote areas, but in case there isn't there might not be anyone coming for rescue for quite a while…
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Since retiring, I do a lot of hiking by myself in remote areas, and would never have considered the human predator on the trail as being an issue. Back at camp yes, but on a remote trail? Surely you jest!
There are a lot of dangers hiking alone - mainly falling down a cliff and being unable to move from where you are, or (in Australia) getting bitten by a snake... These dangers are much more likely. This is a particular problem since many places have no telephone contact, and the trails are infrequently used (in a lot of places I have not seen another person on the trail).
People shooting themselves in the foot or damaging themselves on an axe they are carrying (which I could also imagine easily damaging backpacks) is also much more of a problem than coming across a human predator on a trail.
To reduce the real dangers, I always keep to marked trails, and don't go "bush bashing" (off trail), although I would really like to explore a bit. Like someone else mentioned, I always take something warm and food and water, and a first aid kit.
Back at camp, I camp in my car, and it is always locked. I consider that safer than a tent. If I thought someone was a human predator, I would leave. Everything would be in the car, so nothing would be left behind. There are plenty of other places around to camp. And I always let someone know my movements whenever I am in radio range. Sometimes this has meant that I am out of contact for a few days.
When I did break down on a lonely road in the middle of nowhere (which in my opinion is a much more likely place for a human predator), I was crossing an area that was out of radio range, and I thought it was possible that no-one would raise the alarm for three days. Fortunately the local farmer came by after 6 hours. I was told that the flying doctor would have flown over after three days, and that people had been stranded on that road for three days before anyone came by (the road was marked on all the maps).
However, in that situation, you are wanting human assistance, so you wouldn't be brandishing an axe or a gun, and the human predator would probably have an easy time of it.
Oh, by the way, I am a short woman.
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I hike a lot here in Switzerland, sometimes alone sometimes with a friend. I've never even considered human danger, but then I'm a young tall male and this is one of the lowest crime areas on the planet. Is there really a serious chance of that kind of danger on trails in US? Large animals is a different matter, but we don't have those either. What I am sometimes concerned about on particularly remote trails is accidents. Usually there is a cell phone coverage even in remote areas, but in case there isn't there might not be anyone coming for rescue for quite a while…
Reading this thread, I think it's far more justified to worry about accidents or other situations leading to getting stranded while hiking alone than crime. Especially day hiking where the most common crime - theft - would require a direct confrontation with your person rather than pilfering from an unattended campsite.
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I hike a lot here in Switzerland, sometimes alone sometimes with a friend. I've never even considered human danger, but then I'm a young tall male and this is one of the lowest crime areas on the planet. Is there really a serious chance of that kind of danger on trails in US? Large animals is a different matter, but we don't have those either. What I am sometimes concerned about on particularly remote trails is accidents. Usually there is a cell phone coverage even in remote areas, but in case there isn't there might not be anyone coming for rescue for quite a while…
There was a set of trails near me that I was told when I started my job, by the departmental secretary, not to go into. Apparently women were going hiking there and getting raped, so often that the police issued a warning. Not the ones that said "don't hike alone" which many areas have, but the fact that rapes were occurring. It look over 25 incidences reported to the police for them to change the warning.
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Reading this thread, I think it's far more justified to worry about accidents or other situations leading to getting stranded while hiking alone than crime.
Yes, I think that you're right.
What I'm realizing as I read all of the generous and informative replies that I've placed hiking in a different category from the rest of my life. What I need to do is treat it as I would hiking solo in the city or traveling solo - both of which I do all of the time with awareness, but not fear. As with those activities I need to make a realistic assessment of the hiking risks, decide how much risk I'm willing to take and then do it.
Having said that, I do a see dog in my future (not just for this reason) and car camping (great point that it's self contained and movable).
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I always just send a family member a text of my plans for the day and then another when I'm home safe.
I've been lucky to never come across anything to make me feel uneasy and I hope it continues that way for a long time.
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+1 handgun.
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[By the way, for anybody who might be curious, the section symbol (§) is not used in Canadian legal writing, which is why I use it in my US posts but not my Canadian ones. I also follow other Canadian stylistic conventions in my Canadian posts like bold-italics for case names.]
Interesting that most British empire / Commonwealth countries still use the (Regal?) "R" too denote the Crown as the prosecution.
Brings to mind that old phrase for prisoners 'serving at Her Majesty's pleasure'.
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[By the way, for anybody who might be curious, the section symbol (§) is not used in Canadian legal writing, which is why I use it in my US posts but not my Canadian ones. I also follow other Canadian stylistic conventions in my Canadian posts like bold-italics for case names.]
Interesting that most British empire / Commonwealth countries still use the (Regal?) "R" too denote the Crown as the prosecution.
Yeah, this is true when the government is the prosecutor, as you note.
Unlike most or all US states, but similar to the UK, Canada still allows private prosecutions. In Canada, any private person can lay criminal charges against anybody else. In a case prosecuted by a private prosecutor, the private person's name would appear in the title of the case. For example, Cloutier v. Langlois, [1990] 1 SCR 158, is a criminal case in which Langlois was the accused, and Cloutier was the private prosecutor. Cloutier was apparently not the most effective prosecutor; the Supreme Court notes that he "did not file a brief" in that court, although he did show up for oral argument.
Private prosecution are rare in both Canada and the UK because the government retains the ability to take over the prosecution at any time (including withdrawing it if they want). The choice of the government to take over a private prosecution is theoretically subject to judicial review if the government's actions disclose unlawful bias, a conflict of interest, or are otherwise oppressive, but the standard is so high that if the government takes over your private prosecution, there's usually nothing you can do about it.
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unless you're 100% set on going alone, a good hiking partner with a similar style is awesome.
for shorter afternoon/day hikes (or even going on runs around town) I use my cell phone to text a friend to let them know where I am, how long I think I'll be gone, and when they can expect a text back from me. If I bring my phone with me, I make sure to delete the text message (don't want other to know who is waiting to hear back). I've never had anything happen to me and it's unfortunate that it's even something that needs to be thought of but better safe than sorry I guess.
my suggestion for longer trips - SPOT is a good backup tool to help with fears of being in an emergency/getting injured. It has an SOS function that alerts search and rescue if you get injured and are out of cell range and need to get help. the newer generation also has a check in feature.
Personally, I don't do longer hikes/backpacks solo - I go with another female friend (she introduced me to SPOT and is also has much more wilderness knowledge than me). Both me and my friend are introverted so our backpacks usually involve hitting the trail in the AM, usually just hiking and enjoying nature in silence until we reach camp although we will joke/encourage each other up the hills (the last hill is always the worst). Once we get to the site we each scope out places to set up our tents (usually out of view from each other but within site of the "common area"). Afternoons we do our own thing - just as good as being solo. We usually regroup for dinner and hang out until bed. I think we end up spending more time solo but its nice to know someone's expecting you if you don't show back up. We do also let a friend back home know our plans and where we're going and when we'll be back just in case something were to happen to both of us. We've only be in one instance where we were uncomfortable - encountered a group of rowdy guys near the prime water source. We kept hiking a few sites (about 1/4 mile away) over past another (respectful) group - thankfully the rowdy guys were just daytrippers and left so we were ale to use the spot to get our water refilled.
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I hike a lot here in Switzerland, sometimes alone sometimes with a friend. I've never even considered human danger, but then I'm a young tall male and this is one of the lowest crime areas on the planet. Is there really a serious chance of that kind of danger on trails in US? Large animals is a different matter, but we don't have those either. What I am sometimes concerned about on particularly remote trails is accidents. Usually there is a cell phone coverage even in remote areas, but in case there isn't there might not be anyone coming for rescue for quite a while…
Reading this thread, I think it's far more justified to worry about accidents or other situations leading to getting stranded while hiking alone than crime.
In New Zealand especially, the landscape is a killer, people hear about the lack of predators and venomous animals and ignore the fact that the climate can change on a dime, cell-phones are often out of range and a number of trails rely on river crossings which can turn dangerous very quickly under heavy rainfall.
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SPOT is a good backup tool to help with fears of being in an emergency/getting injured. It has an SOS function that alerts search and rescue if you get injured and are out of cell range and need to get help. the newer generation also has a check in feature.
Both me and my friend are introverted so our backpacks usually involve hitting the trail in the AM, usually just hiking and enjoying nature in silence until we reach camp although we will joke/encourage each other up the hills (the last hill is always the worst). Once we get to the site we each scope out places to set up our tents (usually out of view from each other but within site of the "common area"). Afternoons we do our own thing - just as good as being solo. We usually regroup for dinner and hang out until bed.
Wow, never heard of SPOT - am going to check it out. Thank you for this tip. I'd love a hiking buddy like yours!
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This is a bit tangential: in my area, search and rescue missions can be VERY costly (involving helicopters, snowmobiles, etc.) and sometime the costs are passed on to the person who was rescued. So we have the option to buy a Colorado Search and Rescue card. It costs $3 per year. I carry it with me when hiking.
Thanks for this info - I'll bet WA state has one of these too. Will look for it.
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I am constantly encouraged to "find a friend" to hike/camp/bike with because "it will be more fun". As an introvert, I just don't think that way.
If you are interested in a hiking buddy this summer, let me know. I am an INFJ and am happy to walk in silence.
You're on!
Who knows, maybe we can get NinetyFour to come join us - in silence of course :-)
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humans are probably the least likely thing you should be worrying about.
If it makes you feel any better, as a female, you are statistically much less likely to be a victim of violent crime than a male.
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If it makes you feel any better, as a female, you are statistically much less likely to be a victim of violent crime than a male.
I'm going to guess that it doesn't. But hey, if you have any statistics as to how much a man, as compared to a woman, is more likely to be a victim of violent crime while innocently minding their own goddamn business, please let us know. Thanks so much for your insight.
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Just double checked FBI crime stats and they don't break it down as far as victims "innocently minding their own goddamn business".
Your welcome.
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I'm pretty certain women are raped significantly more frequently than men are.
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I'm pretty certain women are raped significantly more frequently than men are.
yes, outside of prison, you are correct.
Rape is the single type of violent crime, of many types, where females are significantly more likely to be victims.
That doesn't change the fact that females are less likely to be the victim of a violent crime in aggregate.
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I'm pretty certain women are raped significantly more frequently than men are.
yes, outside of prison, you are correct.
Rape is the single type of violent crime, of many types, where females are significantly more likely to be victims.
That doesn't change the fact that females are less likely to be the victim of a violent crime in aggregate.
Some women feel fear when hiking alone. Nothing you have "contributed" here has provided any value to those women who have shared their experience here.
For example, there may well be a (male) prison rape epidemic, but that is pretty irrelevant to a female hiker's fear of harassment.
I suggest you take your MRA business elsewhere.
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Not only innocently minding their own business, but doing it out alone in a wilderness setting. A place where, for reasons being discussed in this thread, fewer women feel comfortable going alone compared to men - and thus less likely to be there in the first place. Just like men are statiscly higher crime victims because they are more likely to be in iffy or violently potential places and situations more so then lone women are.
All I was trying to do was provide some encouragement for the OP not to feel like such a potential victim.
I'm glad that you have such intimate knowledge on crime statistics as I couldn't find any such details in my research.
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Some women feel fear when hiking alone. Nothing you have "contributed" here has provided any value to those women who have shared their experience here.
For example, there may well be a (male) prison rape epidemic, but that is pretty irrelevant to a female hiker's fear of harassment.
I suggest you take your MRA business elsewhere.
i'm not the one who brought rape into the discussion.
I simply tried to provide some FACTS that might have alleviated some of the OPs apprehension of hiking alone.
It's has become apparent that a number of people in this thread find facts to be less important than feelings and for some reason have been offended by my posts.
Carry on with your victim complex fantasies.
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All I was trying to do was provide some encouragement for the OP not to feel like such a potential victim.
What you actually said was this:
If it makes you feel any better, as a female, you are statistically much less likely to be a victim of violent crime than a male.
Far from being "encouraging," your comment is irrelevant to OP's concern. "More men than women are victims of violence in North America" does not have any bearing on whether OP should be worried that she might be targeted on a particular hiking trail. There is no relationship between the two.
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My biggest concern hiking alone is the mountain lions. They are so damn sneaky, tip-toeing around, leaping on you from behind and all. Neighbors have spotted them on our street. I have yet to see one and it has been years since anyone was attacked. So, even though it crosses my mind I just carry on. Everyone I personally know who has died in the wild has been injured in a fall or gotten lost.
I think the main enemy is in our head. When alone the mind races and imagines as sorts of things. Movies like "Deliverance" and "Wild" don't help. Don't let a one in a million chance of a bad thing ruin your peace of mind or enthusiasm for the joys to be had with 999,999/1mm chance of incident free nature. If nature wasn't a little bit scary, it wouldn't be nature, now would it?
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Great thread and thanks for starting this discussion. I have been hiking for 25 years with my ex, but since we split up two years ago I have drastically reduced my hikes, and I want to turn this around and feel more comfortable hiking alone.
I hike in Europe, mainly in the UK, where there are no bears, mountain lions etc. Also: where guns and pepperspray are mostly outlawed. Key risks for hiking alone are accidents such as falling from a ridge, breaking your ankle due to unstable/holey terrain etc. However, I do feel a threat from men, although I can't rationalise it completely. The threat does not come from fellow hikers I meet along the route, but from places along the route which are close to parking lots, so where you are quite remote but still have easy access by car. I just don't feel comfortable passing a remote parking lot with a van with a guy just wandering around.
For now, I take routes which are less adventurous (risk of injury) and more crowded (less chance of meeting a creep with no-one near). But walking the less adventurous less remote routes does diminish my joy in hiking a bit. I will probably have to man-up and do it this summer, to get over this. I do have a satellite phone with emergency functionality so at least I can call in case of injury.
Thanks for sharing your tips such as messaging friends and leaving notes on in the car.
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Not only innocently minding their own business, but doing it out alone in a wilderness setting. A place where, for reasons being discussed in this thread, fewer women feel comfortable going alone compared to men - and thus less likely to be there in the first place. Just like men are statiscly higher crime victims because they are more likely to be in iffy or violently potential places and situations more so then lone women are.
All I was trying to do was provide some encouragement for the OP not to feel like such a potential victim.
It's not encouraging and it's not about feeling like a potential victim. Women simply are potential victims of sexualized violence in a way that adult men outside prisons are not. Next to 100% of women have at least experienced being harressed and groped against their will, insults and creepy encounters are occuring with some regularity. Even when minding your own damn business in a city or in public transport their will be the occasional guy thinking he's entitled to your time and attention. Situations quickly get uncomfortable in public, I can only imagine how those guys would react alone on some hiking trail. Being beaten up and robbed less on average does exactly nothing to help this situation. Neither does the knowledge that should you get raped it absolutely would be considered your fault.
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Neither does the knowledge that should you get raped it absolutely would be considered your fault.
I so agree with you! I sometimes get warnings that hiking alone is risky from very well meaning people, but always with the undertone of "if you do go hiking alone, then you are asking for trouble."
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I think that if Exhale, lhamo, Spartana and I were hiking together, we would be a pretty intimidating bunch. Silent, perhaps, but strong. The mountain lions and other possible predators (two-legged or four) would scurry to get out of our way. :)
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Just want to comment on Pepper spray. It is not nearly as powerful as most people think. I have been pepper sprayed multiple times for training. It messes you up if you get it directly in the eye before they close their eye or put their hand up to deflect it. It is very hard to do. We tried over and over to see how it worked. It works horrible a huge % of the time. One big downside is if you inhale it as you are spraying it (possibility spraying outside in the wind) you will not be able to run away because your lungs will be on fire. But, it is better than nothing.
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Some women feel fear when hiking alone. Nothing you have "contributed" here has provided any value to those women who have shared their experience here.
For example, there may well be a (male) prison rape epidemic, but that is pretty irrelevant to a female hiker's fear of harassment.
I suggest you take your MRA business elsewhere.
i'm not the one who brought rape into the discussion.
I simply tried to provide some FACTS that might have alleviated some of the OPs apprehension of hiking alone.
It's has become apparent that a number of people in this thread find facts to be less important than feelings and for some reason have been offended by my posts.
Carry on with your victim complex fantasies.
Don't sweat the attacks. A couple posters seem to have a pretty thin skin and are perpetually outraged in most threads where gender comes up as a topic. You said the same thing several other posters said previously.
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Statistically you might not be at risk, but I empathise with the psycological part. When alone in the wilderness, the thoughts start racing. Thanks to the media, we do know about every incident of lone women getting killed while hiking, but less about every uneventful hike. I love my sami knife (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/rapidboy1/knives/433_3374_1.jpg). It doubles as an axe, and if I get nervous, I always imagine the scene from Crocodile Dundee: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWl8EbNN8NM
Doubt it would do me any good at all if I really got into a bad situation, but then, I doubt I will get into a bad situation.
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I frequently day-hike alone (female), but not typically in remote areas, and I don't backpack alone. I'm more concerned about getting lost or having an injury than anything else, so if it's an unfamiliar hike where I have to switch trails a few times and it looks hard to follow, I try to suck it up and go with a group the first time - I am an AMC member. I have had the occasional man glom onto me on the trail on a solo hike, follow me around, and refuse to leave me alone, but this has happened before when I have gone to the movies by myself as well. So it can happen anywhere, really, although it's harder to lose them in a crowd when you're on a hike. I've cut a hike short before due to this sort of thing, but it has thankfully turned out to be nothing more than a temporary nuisance.
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I am constantly encouraged to "find a friend" to hike/camp/bike with because "it will be more fun". As an introvert, I just don't think that way.
If you are interested in a hiking buddy this summer, let me know. I am an INFJ and am happy to walk in silence.
You're on!
Who knows, maybe we can get NinetyFour to come join us - in silence of course :-)
Dang. It would be torture for me to be on a hike with all you fascinating people and not be able to talk! Come find me at the camp ground where you're ready to socialize. :-)
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I love to do day hikes (no camping), but since my divorce have been scared to go alone. (I live in the PNW - love the mountains and beaches we have for hiking.) I'm a short female and feel at a disadvantage (my worry is human predators) out alone on the trail, but I miss hiking too much for this to stop me. Anyone have tips on how to do solo hiking without worrying too much?
Tell people where you are going, when you will be there, and when to expect you to call/text/email them to let them know your back safe in civilization.
The most practically helpful things you can carry with you in case you are harassed or worse by a person: a whistle, a weapon, a phone that has signal.
The reality of the situation is that you are far safer hiking in the woods than you are in a typical urban environment, simply because the number of interactions you'll have with humans is so much lower. But that doesn't mean your safety is guaranteed in either case. Take prudent precautions and then live your life with confidence wherever you are.
The great thing about all of the advice above, except for the weapon part, is that it can help you with a variety of backcountry risks that are not human-related. For every person attacked by a person in the woods, I would guess there are 100 who accidentally lose a trail and spend an unexpected night in the woods, 1000 who suffer a venomous bite, 10000 who break or sprain an ankle and need assistance to return to their vehicle, etc. You should feel much better in those situations if there is somebody in civilization who will send help to the right location within hours of whatever problem you have.
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Reading this thread, I think it's far more justified to worry about accidents or other situations leading to getting stranded while hiking alone than crime.
Yes, I think that you're right.
What I'm realizing as I read all of the generous and informative replies that I've placed hiking in a different category from the rest of my life. What I need to do is treat it as I would hiking solo in the city or traveling solo - both of which I do all of the time with awareness, but not fear. As with those activities I need to make a realistic assessment of the hiking risks, decide how much risk I'm willing to take and then do it.
Having said that, I do a see dog in my future (not just for this reason) and car camping (great point that it's self contained and movable).
Interesting point about car camping. Personally, I would be more fearful of car camping alone than backcountry camping alone. The likelihood of encountering someone out to do you harm has to be greater if you're in an area accessible by car. How many thieves, murders, whatever are going to hike back into the backcountry 5+ miles? I would be much more worried if I was camping in an area where anyone could drive up and where people are more likely to congregate (pre- or post-hike for example).
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I'm an average-sized man who shaves his head and looks the military part. Furthermore, I boxed and received some unarmed combat training. Finally, I learned in Afghanistan how to "game face" people and trust me, I get the point across with my scowl. I'm ready to brawl if you want to take it there.
Yet despite all of that, I still harbor some fears about hiking alone. I worry primarily about wildlife, but I also worry about encountering an unfriendly group of people or a scary dude alone. I'm aware that I have a far greater chance of getting lost and/or falling than having human problems. I'd also add the fact that stranger rapes are extremely rare in comparison to rapes at the hands of someone you know.
I know this rationally, which is why I feel comfortable saying that the overwhelming majority of people you encounter on the trail (dudes included) are well-meaning and would in fact do anything to aid you if you were in trouble. Additionally, many of us guys are acutely aware that you are thinking the worst of us as we pass by and try to do our best to not confirm your suspicions. I hate it when I walk by a woman on a trail and I can very easily notice her apprehension and even fear. I don't blame her, but it does make me feel bad because I'm not that guy. To be clear I am not saying I am a victim, I am just saying I feel bad that a woman feels this way, which limits her freedom and paints me as someone I'm not.
But reason only goes so far. To defeat these emotions, I think that you'll need to get some self-defense training, have plenty of supplies on hand, inform at least 2 people of your whereabouts/plans, and carry some type of defensive item. I personally prefer a good knife because it is useful for other purposes and thus, in my opinion, way easier to defend in a court of law (whether or not this is just is another discussion).
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I'm an average-sized man who shaves his head and looks the military part. Furthermore, I boxed and received some unarmed combat training. Finally, I learned in Afghanistan how to "game face" people and trust me, I get the point across with my scowl. I'm ready to brawl if you want to take it there.
Yet despite all of that, I still harbor some fears about hiking alone. I worry primarily about wildlife, but I also worry about encountering an unfriendly group of people or a scary dude alone. I'm aware that I have a far greater chance of getting lost and/or falling than having human problems. I'd also add the fact that stranger rapes are extremely rare in comparison to rapes at the hands of someone you know.
I know this rationally, which is why I feel comfortable saying that the overwhelming majority of people you encounter on the trail (dudes included) are well-meaning and would in fact do anything to aid you if you were in trouble. Additionally, many of us guys are acutely aware that you are thinking the worst of us as we pass by and try to do our best to not confirm your suspicions. I hate it when I walk by a woman on a trail and I can very easily notice her apprehension and even fear. I don't blame her, but it does make me feel bad because I'm not that guy. To be clear I am not saying I am a victim, I am just saying I feel bad that a woman feels this way, which limits her freedom and paints me as someone I'm not.
But reason only goes so far. To defeat these emotions, I think that you'll need to get some self-defense training, have plenty of supplies on hand, inform at least 2 people of your whereabouts/plans, and carry some type of defensive item. I personally prefer a good knife because it is useful for other purposes and thus, in my opinion, way easier to defend in a court of law (whether or not this is just is another discussion).
And most women know most guys are not that way, but frankly I am not so arrogant to assume my judgement is perfect 100% of the time, so I am not going to be able to make that determination with every single person I meet. So, I avoid situations that could be dangerous if that person is a rapist. I will say that I have had guys ask how to make a woman feel threatened which does make me feel safer with those men.
I do sometimes feel bad, if I am obvious about being nervous, because likelihood is he not a bad guy, but what is the consequence if I am wrong?
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Not only innocently minding their own business, but doing it out alone in a wilderness setting. A place where, for reasons being discussed in this thread, fewer women feel comfortable going alone compared to men - and thus less likely to be there in the first place. Just like men are statiscly higher crime victims because they are more likely to be in iffy or violently potential places and situations more so then lone women are.
All I was trying to do was provide some encouragement for the OP not to feel like such a potential victim.
I'm glad that you have such intimate knowledge on crime statistics as I couldn't find any such details in my research.
I do think this is a valuable contribution to the discussion. I hate to use the word "hysteria", but I think there's a certain amount of it in certain circles regarding safety, and a lot of people, both men and women, don't quite realize how small their chances of being randomly attacked actually are. Especially if you're not involved in anything shady or doing anything stupid, but just going about your business.
I know people who go through their lives scared of everything and avoid all sorts of activities due to their fear, and I know people who DGAF and do what they want. One of those groups has a whole lot more fun and leads much more fulfilling lives than the other.
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I personally don't hike alone based on previous experience (not hiking related, but enough to make me permenantly wary). I've backpacked with another female friend and never had any issues; in fact, everyone I've ever run across backpacking has been really chill and friendly. My mom used to go hiking all the time by herself back in the 70s; she hitch-hiked all over the U.S. and the weirdest thing that ever happened is she met some old dude in the Sierras who claimed he was going to be president.
And hey, there are a lot of us Mustachians in the PNW if you ever want hiking buddies! My husband and I are always out hiking and stuff. I promise we're not scary. We've met ~15 other forum members that can confirm they met us and we didn't kidnap them. ;)
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I personally don't hike alone based on previous experience (not hiking related, but enough to make me permenantly wary). Which is silly, since I've never had any bad experiences hiking/backpacking. I've backpacked with another female friend several times; in fact, everyone I've ever run across backpacking has been really chill and friendly. My mom used to go hiking all the time by herself back in the 70s; she hitch-hiked all over the U.S. and the weirdest thing that ever happened is she met some old dude in the Sierras who claimed he was going to be president.
As others have said, I think the biggest danger is getting hurt (falling, snakebite, etc) and not being able to have anyone to help. There are lots of resources online about how to deal with various situations that you could look into if you wanted.
And hey, there are a lot of us Mustachians in the PNW if you ever want hiking buddies! My husband and I are always out hiking and stuff. I promise we're not scary. We've met ~15 other forum members that can confirm they met us and we didn't kidnap them. ;)
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I personally don't hike alone based on previous experience (not hiking related, but enough to make me permenantly wary). I've backpacked with another female friend and never had any issues; in fact, everyone I've ever run across backpacking has been really chill and friendly. My mom used to go hiking all the time by herself back in the 70s; she hitch-hiked all over the U.S. and the weirdest thing that ever happened is she met some old dude in the Sierras who claimed he was going to be president.
And hey, there are a lot of us Mustachians in the PNW if you ever want hiking buddies! My husband and I are always out hiking and stuff. I promise we're not scary. We've met ~15 other forum members that can confirm they met us and we didn't kidnap them. ;)
That made me laugh
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I know this rationally, which is why I feel comfortable saying that the overwhelming majority of people you encounter on the trail (dudes included) are well-meaning and would in fact do anything to aid you if you were in trouble. Additionally, many of us guys are acutely aware that you are thinking the worst of us as we pass by and try to do our best to not confirm your suspicions. I hate it when I walk by a woman on a trail and I can very easily notice her apprehension and even fear. I don't blame her, but it does make me feel bad because I'm not that guy.
Yep, situation sucks for well intentioned men as well. After reflecting my experiences and reading some relevant literature I'm actually less suspicious of most men while 'upgrading' others on my radar.
A military style haircut would not bother me, while unasked advise (especially advise on what activities are dangerous for women and what we should do in order to be safe) and obviously unwarranted offers of dubious help would set my alarms of. If I need or want help I do the picking and asking if at all possible. The reason for this is quite simply that the odds of me picking the wrong guy who just happens to be there are a lot smaller than the odds of the occasional wrong guy actively approaching women under some pretense.
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I go out alone all the time. I don't worry about other people. I have had men harass me from their cars while street running, but not to the point I think I'm in danger.
In fact, the worst thing that has happened to me was a guy dropping trou and masturbating as I walked by right in front of my house (in a good neighborhood, during the day). The dog be like "hey dude, want to play? What's in your hand?" Had my cell; snapped a photo, called the cops. He ran pretty fast at the sight of the cell phone. Long story, but he'd been caught several times and needed mental help. I had a long talk with the dog about stranger danger . . . .
I do worry about falling and hurting myself. I like the idea of a SPOT. Great idea.
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... My first thought was bear mace. It's perfectly legitimate to carry in the woods [...] here in BC and Alberta...
Whether you can legally carry bear spray in Canada is complicated and depends on a variety of factors. It unfortunately is not a simple topic.
Wall of text removed.
Nobody will prosecute you for carrying bear spray in the woods. Use it for protection, keep it out of sight and don't bring any on a plane and you will be fine. As a separate note, I find a well constructed and concisce argument to be much more compelling than a regurgitation of disjointed cases.
Attitude/behavior is a significant factor in preventing aggression, both from wildlife and humans. Appearance of force is sometimes sufficient to prevent an attack.
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Great thread and thanks for starting this discussion. I have been hiking for 25 years with my ex, but since we split up two years ago I have drastically reduced my hikes, and I want to turn this around and feel more comfortable hiking alone. I hike in Europe, mainly in the UK...I will probably have to man-up and do it this summer, to get over this. I do have a satellite phone with emergency functionality so at least I can call in case of injury. Thanks for sharing your tips such as messaging friends and leaving notes on in the car.
Good to know I have company in this project getting myself out into nature in spite of the fears. I'm wishing you all kinds of good luck. Let us know how it goes. (Hmmm, maybe a kind of group journal is needed on this topic.)
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And hey, there are a lot of us Mustachians in the PNW if you ever want hiking buddies! My husband and I are always out hiking and stuff. I promise we're not scary. We've met ~15 other forum members that can confirm they met us and we didn't kidnap them. ;)
PNW Mustachians on a hike - I like this idea. If any others are interested send me a PM.
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I had a long talk with the dog about stranger danger . . . .
Best story/quote of the day - I'm still laughing!
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Additionally, many of us guys are acutely aware that you are thinking the worst of us as we pass by and try to do our best to not confirm your suspicions. I hate it when I walk by a woman on a trail and I can very easily notice her apprehension and even fear. I don't blame her, but it does make me feel bad because I'm not that guy. To be clear I am not saying I am a victim, I am just saying I feel bad that a woman feels this way, which limits her freedom and paints me as someone I'm not.
Thank you for sharing these thoughts Nice. I appreciate that you're aware and respectful of the issue while also recognizing it's nothing personal about you or men in general, but rather part of a bigger system in which we all live.
What I realized was how I'd placed solo hiking into some way different category (vs. all of my other solo activities). Reminds me of people who are afraid of plane crashes, but jump into a car without a second thought even though car crashes are more likely.
Great list of things to have. I've got the self-defense training already (and the don't F--- with me face, as needed). Definitely plan to carry extra supplies (including a multipurpose knife), inform at least two people of my plans and have the SPOT system (and S&R/evac card if available here in WA). Pepper spray and handguns seem too iffy given the level of the risk and my abilities. Once FIRE, I'll probably add dog(s).
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I've participated in a decent number of rescues in the backcountry, some formal and some random "this dude needs us to help him" ones. In order of importance, I'd worry about:
-Weather. People freeze, people get heatstroke, etc. Weather can change fast. Read the weather report before you go out and pack a few bits of warm/waterproof clothing. BRING SOME DAMN WATER.
-Getting lost. Exacerbates all other problems. Read a map beforehand, even if you have a GPS. Your magic device can die. Figure out how to tell what direction you are headed without any tools. If in doubt, don't go anywhere, wait for someone else to come along or some clue to where you are to present itself. Tell someone where you're going, and bring some damn water.
-Getting in over your head. If you're by yourself, dismount your bike and walk that tricky drop. Don't scramble up anything you can't easily scramble down (scratch that, don't scramble up anything at all if you're not a very serious climber). Stay the fuck away from running water and steep ice/snow. Bring some damn water.
-Wildlife. I've only dealt with this (snakes) once. Your chances of having a wildlife problem are slim/none, with the exception of rattlesnakes which are hard to see and like to sleep on the trail. If you're an adult, a snake bite won't kill you, but you might dehydrate or freeze waiting for help. So bring some clothes and some damn water. IMO snakebite kits are useless, you're better off (if you are just dealing with yourself) with a knife and your mouth. Honestly, though, you're probably better off not trying to do anything about the venom at all and just walking back to the trailhead/going to the ER. Big animals mostly don't care about you unless you are between them and their food/kids. So don't be between them and their food and kids.
-People. If you are on a hiking trail in the US/Canada/Europe/Australia, you have pretty much automatically gotten out of range of 99+% of the dangerous people in the population. And 99+% of the population isn't dangerous to begin with. If it makes you feel better, carry some sort of weapon, but be aware that you'll get the stinkeye (if carrying openly) from everyone else, and if you carry concealed, the deterrent effect is mostly gone.
So basically, if you want to ensure your safety, protect yourself from your own stupidity. You are more dangerous to you than anyone else.
-W
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Personally I sleep much better in a tent with some bear spray ready to hand, though I've never needed it in hundreds of bear encounters.
Holy smokes!! Really??
Yes, really. Bears are not as dangerous as popular imagination thinks. Dangerous, for sure, and especially if you are foolish around them. But mostly they are just scared of us - at least the bears in the Deep Woods. Town bears such as the one that lives in my neighbourhood scare me more because they are not afraid of people.
That said, there were a couple of shaky moments over the years.
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... My first thought was bear mace. It's perfectly legitimate to carry in the woods [...] here in BC and Alberta...
Whether you can legally carry bear spray in Canada is complicated and depends on a variety of factors. It unfortunately is not a simple topic.
When I worked in Northern BC it was a Worksafe requirement that everyone carry it at all times. That was over ten years ago, but that was the state of workplace regulation at the time.
If you mace somebody in your driveway our while out on the town then the issues you highlight could come up - it could arguably be seen as a weapon for the purposes of harming a person. If you are in the back country carrying bear mace and end up macing a potential rapist I seriously doubt anyone would try to argue you were carrying it for that purpose, or that you planned to do it that way.
That said, you'd want to be careful about how you explained events to the cops - a good reason to never say anything without a lawyer present. But I know I'd rather be explaining why the rapist has red eyes and skin than the alternative.
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And most women know most guys are not that way, but frankly I am not so arrogant to assume my judgement is perfect 100% of the time, so I am not going to be able to make that determination with every single person I meet. So, I avoid situations that could be dangerous if that person is a rapist. I will say that I have had guys ask how to make a woman feel threatened which does make me feel safer with those men.
I do sometimes feel bad, if I am obvious about being nervous, because likelihood is he not a bad guy, but what is the consequence if I am wrong?
Absolutely, exercise caution and be wary of anything that doesn't seem right - we have instincts for a reason. I was just trying to provide a male perspective.
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I don't know about you guys, but my biggest danger during hiking is dying alone after breaking a leg or something. I've hiked alone in Denali with snow everywhere, Death Valley with snow everywhere... long-ass hikes, nobody around whatsoever.
Highly recommended unless you have kids or whatever.
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And most women know most guys are not that way, but frankly I am not so arrogant to assume my judgement is perfect 100% of the time, so I am not going to be able to make that determination with every single person I meet. So, I avoid situations that could be dangerous if that person is a rapist. I will say that I have had guys ask how to make a woman feel threatened which does make me feel safer with those men.
I do sometimes feel bad, if I am obvious about being nervous, because likelihood is he not a bad guy, but what is the consequence if I am wrong?
Absolutely, exercise caution and be wary of anything that doesn't seem right - we have instincts for a reason. I was just trying to provide a male perspective.
I understand. I was not clear. I was just pointing out, we don't think you are a threat, just that if you chose to, size wise you'd probably win, so do I want to risk it? I do feel bad that guys feel bothered by it, but I don't have a better solution that still keeps me safe. You know?
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... My first thought was bear mace. It's perfectly legitimate to carry in the woods [...] here in BC and Alberta...
Whether you can legally carry bear spray in Canada is complicated and depends on a variety of factors. It unfortunately is not a simple topic.
When I worked in Northern BC it was a Worksafe requirement that everyone carry it at all times. That was over ten years ago, but that was the state of workplace regulation at the time.
If you mace somebody in your driveway our while out on the town then the issues you highlight could come up - it could arguably be seen as a weapon for the purposes of harming a person. If you are in the back country carrying bear mace and end up macing a potential rapist I seriously doubt anyone would try to argue you were carrying it for that purpose, or that you planned to do it that way.
That said, you'd want to be careful about how you explained events to the cops - a good reason to never say anything without a lawyer present. But I know I'd rather be explaining why the rapist has red eyes and skin than the alternative.
As I explained in my post, if the bear spray is actually used to in causing injury to a person or actually used for the purpose of threatening or intimidating a person, then it is automatically a weapon and your specific intent in carrying it is irrelevant to the determination of whether it is a weapon. Specific intent is still relevant for the s 88 offense, but the ss 90 and 91(2) offenses are general intent offenses and the prosecutor would not need to prove any specific intent unless necessary to prove the bear spray was a weapon (but that is not required if it was actually used either in causing injury or in threatening or intimidating a person). If the bear spray is not actually used, then you could still be convicted of one of these crimes, but the prosecutor would need to prove your specific intent.
Provincial regulation or laws cannot override the crimes given in the federal Criminal Code. For a Supreme Court authority for that well-known proposition, see Garland v. Consumers’ Gas Co., 2004 SCC 25, [2004] 1 SCR 629, at para 50 (provincial regulation rendered inoperative because of conflict with federal Criminal Code). If charged with any of these offenses, provincial law could still potentially be relevant to your specific intent, but in some cases, specific intent does not even need to be proved and you can still be convicted (as explained above). When specific intent does not need to be proved, provincial law could not help you avoid a conviction.
I did not suggest that any action be taken based on my post. I'm not making any normative judgment on whether you should carry bear spray, or any recommendation on whether you should. My post did not contain any arguments or advice. It was just dispassionate information. The Criminal Code regime is rather complicated.
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I understand. I was not clear. I was just pointing out, we don't think you are a threat, just that if you chose to, size wise you'd probably win, so do I want to risk it? I do feel bad that guys feel bothered by it, but I don't have a better solution that still keeps me safe. You know?
Yep, unfortunately biology is not a woman's friend in this case. Nope, I don't have a solution.
All you can do is know some self-defense, be wise, have a small and easily accessible weapon (like a multipurpose knife), and tell multiple people where you are located/when you'll be back. SPOT also looks pretty baller with the SOS option being so easy to use. If the situation looks really bad, you can press the button and hopefully have help on the way soon.
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I understand. I was not clear. I was just pointing out, we don't think you are a threat, just that if you chose to, size wise you'd probably win, so do I want to risk it? I do feel bad that guys feel bothered by it, but I don't have a better solution that still keeps me safe. You know?
Yep, unfortunately biology is not a woman's friend in this case. Nope, I don't have a solution.
All you can do is know some self-defense, be wise, have a small and easily accessible weapon (like a multipurpose knife), and tell multiple people where you are located/when you'll be back. SPOT also looks pretty baller with the SOS option being so easy to use. If the situation looks really bad, you can press the button and hopefully have help on the way soon.
Or avoid the potential situation all together by not going. It is a sucky choice and I personally don't like that we have to make it.
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I hike a lot here in Switzerland, sometimes alone sometimes with a friend. I've never even considered human danger, but then I'm a young tall male and this is one of the lowest crime areas on the planet. Is there really a serious chance of that kind of danger on trails in US? Large animals is a different matter, but we don't have those either. What I am sometimes concerned about on particularly remote trails is accidents. Usually there is a cell phone coverage even in remote areas, but in case there isn't there might not be anyone coming for rescue for quite a while…
There was a set of trails near me that I was told when I started my job, by the departmental secretary, not to go into. Apparently women were going hiking there and getting raped, so often that the police issued a warning. Not the ones that said "don't hike alone" which many areas have, but the fact that rapes were occurring. It look over 25 incidences reported to the police for them to change the warning.
This story reminds me of a Canadian lawsuit with published disposition reported as Jane Doe v. Toronto (Metropolitan) Commissioners of Police, 39 OR (3d) 487, [1998] OJ No 2681, available on CanLII at http://canlii.ca/t/1w9kn.
In this case, the plaintiff Jane Doe was raped in her apartment by a serial rapist in Toronto who had raped numerous women in the area. The police had declined to warn anybody in the area about the serial rapist because they feared that women would go into a panic and scare the rapist off, preventing his capture. After being raped, Ms. Doe sued the Toronto police based on a constitutional argument that their failure to warn her of the risk of rape violated her constitutional right to equality and amounted to a form of discrimination based on gender because the police's reasons for not putting out a warning were based on stereotypes about women.
The litigation was protracted. The rape took place in 1986 and the case was filed the same year. The court did not release a decision until 1998. However, Ms. Doe was completely successful and the Court found that the police's failure to warn Ms. Doe was unconstitutional and, as a result, the Court ordered general damages of $175,000, plus special damages (out of pocket costs), and some other remedies. The relatively small damage award is typical of Canadian cases and is actually pretty high by Canadian standards.
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I knew a guy who disappeared when hiking alone. Nobody could find him. When he was eventually found he was dead - he fell and the fall killed him. I would never go hiking by myself.
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Women posted with answers about how they hike alone and what they do to feel safe. Men posted to explain that being worried about human predators is silly but ZOMG you could break your leg and DIE.
*sigh*
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What I realized was how I'd placed solo hiking into some way different category (vs. all of my other solo activities). Reminds me of people who are afraid of plane crashes, but jump into a car without a second thought even though car crashes are more likely.
This happened to me as well at one point after a particularly bad series of events in my life. Let me just say that living in a city that frequently visits the top five in crime can be unpleasant. (In 2015, we're proudly holding down the number five slot in most dangerous cities list: http://www.areavibes.com/library/10-most-dangerous-cities/)
Obviously there are issues with doing things alone but I'd managed to put solo hiking (which I did for years happily by choice) into a special category that I didn't put other things in, even when those other things were more dangerous in my city than solo hikes in the wilderness. I'm not sure why I thought the way I did, but I think part of it is that we are uniquely vulnerable in the wilderness in psychological ways in addition to strictly physical ways. We open ourselves up to the world in solo hikes, which is part of the point.
The cure was to take very short solo hikes alone and provide information to my husband about when I would be back and where I was going and to vacation in places with wilderness that I was pretty sure were safer than Memphis (pretty much everywhere else). As I recall, my first solo "hike" in these conditions was actually about ten minutes before I headed back to my car. But that was ok. I added more hiking time after a while.
I think you've gotten great suggestions here and I'm going to steal some of them for myself. The only suggestion I have is that you take some time by yourself to hike in the safest place you can imagine (using many of the above safety suggestions) and contemplate why you've put solo hikes in this place. What do they mean to you? That solo meditation in the woods helped me quite a bit and in more ways than just feeling better while hiking. I changed parts of my life for the better because my fear of solo hikes was not just about solo hiking. It reflected other fears.
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Women posted with answers about how they hike alone and what they do to feel safe. Men posted to explain that being worried about human predators is silly but ZOMG you could break your leg and DIE.
*sigh*
Actually many on the first page did say that their feeling of safety could be based on their size/maleness. Yes, some people were not the best, but many here deserve to get their willingness to consider why they feel safe as males and female did not, appreciated.
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I too am short & female. I'm also in my late 60's & walk trails & parks alone. I always carry my cellphone & my small concealed handgun. Training is imperative; I'm CHL certified & practice. Lately I've joined the DIVA-WOW group, which is a female group for outdoor activities, including shooting leagues & education.
I like this gun idea. There are plenty of small, light (1 lb or so), easily concealed/carried weapons that will scare away most riff raff when un-concealed. It's always best if you can get rid of the threat without actually having to use violence.
Flash a can of pepper spray, and it may not register with the neanderthal hassling you.
Point a .38 revolver at them, and even the slowest witted punk will get the message.
And if the thug persists, it has enough punch to get the job done.
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Women posted with answers about how they hike alone and what they do to feel safe. Men posted to explain that being worried about human predators is silly but ZOMG you could break your leg and DIE.
*sigh*
That's quite an unfair characterization of the vast majority of reasonable posts in this thread. Did you just look for the bad ones and ignore the others?
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Snake bites and injury would deter me far more than the idea of an attacker (human or bear). I would consider a satellite phone if i was determined to hike alone (we use them in my industry, they are not cheap, but if you are bitten by a snake and try and hike out you will die...if you call for help you will probably survive. For full disclosure i am australian and hikers get bitten or require rescue for other reasons regualrly
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You could also use an eperb (emergency response beacon) used for boating... pull the pin and it sends a satellite signal with your location to the emergency services. Cheaper than the sat phone option...
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I knew a guy who disappeared when hiking alone. Nobody could find him. When he was eventually found he was dead - he fell and the fall killed him. I would never go hiking by myself.
If the fall killed him, then hiking with a partner wouldn't have saved him anyway, unless they were holding hands. If I'm dead I don't really care how long it takes someone to find me.
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Yes, because being scared of human predators in the woods is, like day trading stocks, probably a waste of your time and attention. So taking a rational look at the situation and learning more about the world is more useful than, say, buying a handgun, or not going hiking, or whatever.
There is nothing sexist about it. Regardless of gender, you just aren't at sufficient risk from other humans when hiking that it should be a consideration.
-W
Women posted with answers about how they hike alone and what they do to feel safe. Men posted to explain that being worried about human predators is silly but ZOMG you could break your leg and DIE.
*sigh*
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Yes, because being scared of human predators in the woods is, like day trading stocks, probably a waste of your time and attention. So taking a rational look at the situation and learning more about the world is more useful than, say, buying a handgun, or not going hiking, or whatever.
There is nothing sexist about it. Regardless of gender, you just aren't at sufficient risk from other humans when hiking that it should be a consideration.
-W
Women posted with answers about how they hike alone and what they do to feel safe. Men posted to explain that being worried about human predators is silly but ZOMG you could break your leg and DIE.
*sigh*
So I should ignore the warnings from the cops, about women bring raped while hiking? Yea, right. You guys are proving her right and that is ridiculous.
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"Some cop said" is not much of an argument. I've spent the better part of 40 years in the backcountry, quite a bit of that time as a professional, and never encountered so much as a mugging, so there's your counter-anecdote.
Or, you could look at violent crime stats:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Violent_crime_rates_by_gender_1973-2003.jpg
Or rape numbers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#/media/File:Rapes_per_1000_people_1973-2003.jpg
From the article: "Contrary to widespread belief, rape outdoors is rare. Over two thirds of all rapes occur in someone's home. 31% occur in the perpetrators' homes, 27% in the victims' homes and 10% in homes shared by the victim and perpetrator. 7% occur at parties, 7% in vehicles, 4% outdoors and 2% in bars." ( Abbey, A., BeShears, R., Clinton-Sherrod, A. M., & McAuslan, P. (2004). Psychology of Women Quarterly, 28, 323–332."Similarities and differences in women's sexual assault experiences based on tactics used by the perpetrator". Accessed 9 July 2008.)
I would guess that basically all the rapes outdoors are happening in urban areas, rather than on hiking trails, but I don't have numbers on that.
-W
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"Some cop said" is not much of an argument. I've spent the better part of 40 years in the backcountry, quite a bit of that time as a professional, and never encountered so much as a mugging, so there's your counter-anecdote.
Or, you could look at violent crime stats:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Violent_crime_rates_by_gender_1973-2003.jpg
Or rape numbers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#/media/File:Rapes_per_1000_people_1973-2003.jpg
From the article: "Contrary to widespread belief, rape outdoors is rare. Over two thirds of all rapes occur in someone's home. 31% occur in the perpetrators' homes, 27% in the victims' homes and 10% in homes shared by the victim and perpetrator. 7% occur at parties, 7% in vehicles, 4% outdoors and 2% in bars." ( Abbey, A., BeShears, R., Clinton-Sherrod, A. M., & McAuslan, P. (2004). Psychology of Women Quarterly, 28, 323–332."Similarities and differences in women's sexual assault experiences based on tactics used by the perpetrator". Accessed 9 July 2008.)
I would guess that basically all the rapes outdoors are happening in urban areas, rather than on hiking trails, but I don't have numbers on that.
-W
I am not saying that the majority of rape are stranger rapes, I am quite away that most are from known individuals. However, of those who are stranger rapes, they aim for women in isolated areas. This man:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altemio_Sanchez, raped in multiple areas one of which is the path that goes through the hiking area I was talking about. Yet the timing I was speaking of was in 2009. The cops had 25 reported rapes in that area so issued a warning (which btw, not a cop, Buffalo PD, Amherst PD and the university police department all issued separate warnings). I am sure everyone is aware that not all crimes, like rape, are reported so I can assume more than that occurred prior to the warning.
This is one of the "avoid getting raped: advise sites.
https://rainn.org/get-information/sexual-assault-prevention/avoiding-dangerous-situations
The second one is "Try to avoid isolated areas. It is more difficult to get help if no one is around.", not because there are more rapists in those areas but because it is harder to get away if they are there.
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I hike alone in Boulder and at my house in the mountains.
I carry pepper spray, usually the big kind. It will work on anything, including moose, which I have to worry about on my mountain hikes.
Here's what happened to me one day and why I prefer pepper spray to a gun. I was hiking with my two small kids, 6 and 4. We live near a campground and we were hiking around there. A woman let her two 100 pound dogs off leash because she thought she was alone given that the parking lot was empty. Well those two beasts made an insane B-line for me and my children. I was prepared to spray them, but having owned an akita and recognizing big dog posturing, I first in my lowest alpha bitch voice told them to stay. Thankfully, they did. However, if they had not, a gun would have been almost useless against two dogs attacking small children. Pepper spray on the other hand, would have shut them down pretty quick without potentially shooting a child by accident.
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Look, it's certainly possible to get attacked anywhere. My point is that a hiking trail is probably the *least* likely place. If you don't carry a weapon around every time you go out, you should probably not worry about it when you go hiking. And you certainly shouldn't be worried about sensational crimes committed by serial killers, because there is a whole laundry list of stuff that is orders of magnitude more dangerous that you don't give a rat's ass about. Life is not a horror movie or the tabloid news, folks. You are in less danger from violence than any humans in recorded history, at least if you live in the developed world.
I mean, if you want to just find scary anecdotes, how about the Germanwings crash/mass murder? Your chances of dying in a plane crash are higher than getting killed by a serial killer, bike path or no, but you probably still fly, right? Because, statistically, it's really safe, right? This is no different.
Seriously, you're really safe. Read up about it, figure out what actual dangers are, and then go have fun!
http://reason.com/archives/2012/01/11/the-decline-of-violence
-W
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I like this gun idea. There are plenty of small, light (1 lb or so), easily concealed/carried weapons that will scare away most riff raff when un-concealed. It's always best if you can get rid of the threat without actually having to use violence.
On the human side, I feel relatively safe hiking alone, but have had a bad encounter before (threatened but they stopped just short of actually hitting me). I now carry a small handgun where legal for hiking in locations where wild animals are unlikely (or only very small ones are around).
In the wild areas where the threat of animal attack exists (which I consider a higher overall risk than a human attack), I carry a magnum caliber handgun... You may only get 1 shot off in an animal attack. It needs to count.
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Look, it's certainly possible to get attacked anywhere. My point is that a hiking trail is probably the *least* likely place. If you don't carry a weapon around every time you go out, you should probably not worry about it when you go hiking. And you certainly shouldn't be worried about sensational crimes committed by serial killers, because there is a whole laundry list of stuff that is orders of magnitude more dangerous that you don't give a rat's ass about. Life is not a horror movie or the tabloid news, folks. You are in less danger from violence than any humans in recorded history, at least if you live in the developed world.
I mean, if you want to just find scary anecdotes, how about the Germanwings crash/mass murder? Your chances of dying in a plane crash are higher than getting killed by a serial killer, bike path or no, but you probably still fly, right? Because, statistically, it's really safe, right? This is no different.
Seriously, you're really safe. Read up about it, figure out what actual dangers are, and then go have fun!
http://reason.com/archives/2012/01/11/the-decline-of-violence
-W
I'm going to agree here, to an extent, even though I posted early on about the .38.
I rarely carry a gun when I'm in a designated hiking area... and if I do, it's because of the threat of bear. But in my general area, running off road means logging trails, backwoods, and lots a drunk rednecks on 4-wheelers. So yes, there can definitely be a threat of the human (and I use that term loosely) variety in these areas. I think it all depends on where you are and what reasonable level of threat you can expect... (cue the Deliverance banjos)
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Dog + cell phone, bear bells (aka my dangling keys) if I'm in bear area.
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So I should ignore the warnings from the cops, about women bring raped while hiking? Yea, right. You guys are proving her right and that is ridiculous.
Hey, don't fall into the same trap she did. There are like 2-3 people saying that type of stuff. The rest of the thread is pretty solid, in my opinion.
I'd also note that they aren't wrong about the stats regarding violence. We really are safe and have been getting safer for awhile.
Where they're off the mark is in not considering how you feel and the fact that it is important how you feel. Like I said, I also feel uncomfortable alone in the wild. I also feel slightly uncomfortable if a plane hits a bad bit of turbulence or I see storm clouds out the window. Obviously I can't do any prep on the plane stuff, but I will prep on the outdoors stuff by having the "don't fuck with me" face, ample supplies, people with knowledge of where I am/how long I'll be gone, and some type of item to be used in self-defense (walking stick, multipurpose knife, etc).
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So I should ignore the warnings from the cops, about women bring raped while hiking? Yea, right. You guys are proving her right and that is ridiculous.
Hey, don't fall into the same trap she did. There are like 2-3 people saying that type of stuff. The rest of the thread is pretty solid, in my opinion.
I'd also note that they aren't wrong about the stats regarding violence. We really are safe and have been getting safer for awhile.
Where they're off the mark is in not considering how you feel and the fact that it is important how you feel. Like I said, I also feel uncomfortable alone in the wild. I also feel slightly uncomfortable if a plane hits a bad bit of turbulence or I see storm clouds out the window. Obviously I can't do any prep on the plane stuff, but I will prep on the outdoors stuff by having the "don't fuck with me" face, ample supplies, people with knowledge of where I am/how long I'll be gone, and some type of item to be used in self-defense (walking stick, multipurpose knife, etc).
I also think the issue here is one of general vs. specific. If the police were aware of a specific area in which women were getting raped, of COURSE you shouldn't go hiking there. But just because women are getting raped in one specific area doesn't mean it's more likely to happen in the backcountry at large.
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Maybe this is where we're not communicating well. My intent is to give everyone the confidence that they don't need to take ninja classes to go for a walk in the woods, because their fear, while real, isn't really justified.
To take the airplane analogy further, we could all recommend that someone who is afraid of flying wear a parachute on the plane, or only fly on certain airlines with perfect safety records (Rainman, anyone?) or something, but really, the *better* solution is to think through their fear, convince themselves it's not rational, and then go about their lives.
Now, if that's not possible and carrying a pocket knife/bear spray/gun/claymore makes you feel better, that's fine. But the bottom line is that hiking is dangerous (to the extent that it is at all) almost exclusively because of weather and other natural (rockfall, lightning, slip/fall, getting lost, etc) hazards. The danger from other humans is as low as it could possibly be anywhere in your entire life, including in your own home most likely. Think about it, fill up your water bottle, and go out and enjoy the world.
-W
Where they're off the mark is in not considering how you feel and the fact that it is important how you feel. Like I said, I also feel uncomfortable alone in the wild. I also feel slightly uncomfortable if a plane hits a bad bit of turbulence or I see storm clouds out the window. Obviously I can't do any prep on the plane stuff, but I will prep on the outdoors stuff by having the "don't fuck with me" face, ample supplies, people with knowledge of where I am/how long I'll be gone, and some type of item to be used in self-defense (walking stick, multipurpose knife, etc).
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Women posted with answers about how they hike alone and what they do to feel safe. Men posted to explain that being worried about human predators is silly but ZOMG you could break your leg and DIE.
*sigh*
So now my opinion on what I worry about, which had absolutely no mention of anything else discussed in this thread, isn't worth listening to because of what genitals I have?
See, two can play at that bullshit gender card game.
I make no comment about anything else people mentioned, but am just sharing my answer to the original question. Yes, I feel safe. However, my biggest worry is basically that I'm going to be an overconfident idiot and die alone at ten thousand feet in the snow. I do my best to prepare for the basics (water, food, compass, gps, knife, mylar blanket, matches, lighter, basic knowledge of how to use these.) But shit happens.
I am not very worried about black bears. Brown bears are much more of a possible issue, but so far my hikes were mostly in areas without any. Moose are cunts. Elk can be a problem too. And bison. Especially during rutting season. Not worried about any birds, snakes, spiders, scorpions, etc, though I do make sure to listen for rattling.
These are legitimately useful responses, so I have no respect for you shitting on them.
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Women posted with answers about how they hike alone and what they do to feel safe. Men posted to explain that being worried about human predators is silly but ZOMG you could break your leg and DIE.
*sigh*
That's quite an unfair characterization of the vast majority of reasonable posts in this thread. Did you just look for the bad ones and ignore the others?
The first responses I saw from men were heavy on dismissing the OP's concern and mansplaining. I did not mean your posts, which I thought were very insightful. I should have said "Some men" or "the first few men."
These are legitimately useful responses, so I have no respect for you shitting on them.
They are fine responses to a different question. The OP was specifically asking about dealing with her feelings of being unsafe from humans. This is a real and legitimate fear for women. Responses warning about black bears and crevasses are beside the point. Responses pooh-poohing her fears, or saying "I'm a guy and I don't worry about other guys," are condescending and dismissive--and out of touch with what living as a woman is like. I go out riding by myself and do other stuff, I'm not imprisoned by fears; however, I never dismiss the possibility that a human threat could appear, and I maintain a certain level of awareness.
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I guess that when I talk about remote areas they are a different level of remoteness that what you are talking about. Yesterday SO had a picture of the USA with different states labeled with one word - Nevada was "empty". Now Nevada has more people per square kilometer than New South Wales (the second most populated state in Australia) 7.9 vs 7.1 - the Northern Territory has 0.2 people per square kilometer. Most of my hiking has been in remote parts of New South Wales.
This probably makes hiking itself somewhat safer, while scouting out the other occupants of campsites is something I automatically on arrival (saying hi, but getting a feeling of the types staying there), and is possibly more necessary, as there would be fewer people at the campsites.
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I guess that when I talk about remote areas they are a different level of remoteness that what you are talking about. Yesterday SO had a picture of the USA with different states labeled with one word - Nevada was "empty". Now Nevada has more people per square kilometer than New South Wales (the second most populated state in Australia) 7.9 vs 7.1 - the Northern Territory has 0.2 people per square kilometer. Most of my hiking has been in remote parts of New South Wales.
This probably makes hiking itself somewhat safer, while scouting out the other occupants of campsites is something I automatically on arrival (saying hi, but getting a feeling of the types staying there), and is possibly more necessary, as there would be fewer people at the campsites.
Alaska's pretty damn empty. Also, with Nevada you're basically talking about Las Vegas, Reno, and nearly nothing else. There are a lot of people in those small bubbles and almost no one anywhere else.
But yes, Australia is vast and the population is concentrated in a relatively small area, similar to Canada.
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To take the airplane analogy further, we could all recommend that someone who is afraid of flying wear a parachute on the plane, or only fly on certain airlines with perfect safety records (Rainman, anyone?) or something, but really, the *better* solution is to think through their fear, convince themselves it's not rational, and then go about their lives.
Would you work through your fear of flying if you - not exactly frequently, but not terribly rarely either - saw pilots roaming through the airports while incoherently mumbling "mh... yes.., that might be, might be a good idea... mh... kill them all....yes, just might this time..."? Oh, and when you tried reporting them you've been told that "we can do nothing about it because nothing has happened yet". I bet you would take the car, statistics be damned.
Having unpleasant encounters with jerks and creeps is absolutely nothing unsual or sensational. And yes, most women do think about it when simply walking through the city as well. Not constantly, but regularly enough to be part of our daily life. So it's just natural that we consider it when planning a hiking trip as well.
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The more I think about this the more unsafe I feel. I have camped and hiked for years and occasionally come across super weirdo's. We had one spot we loved but quit going because it was overrun by meth heads.
So I'm rethinking my stance on this. I rarely hike alone, but even as a 230 pound male I think I would be uncomfortable coming across a pair of seedy characters on the trail or have them following me. Even with my wife and 7 year old son I would feel uncomfortable as I reflect upon this.
If it was a wilderness area with few people I think my spider senses would be up. So yeah, I need to find that clip for my small pocket hand gun and start carrying it. Around here seedy characters seem to gravitate to low water bridges down by the river. We've had friends whose camps were robbed and even on one float trip we had a truck stolen.
As the gun folks say "when seconds matter, the police are only minutes away." That couldn't be anymore truer than on a far away trail.
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To take the airplane analogy further, we could all recommend that someone who is afraid of flying wear a parachute on the plane, or only fly on certain airlines with perfect safety records (Rainman, anyone?) or something, but really, the *better* solution is to think through their fear, convince themselves it's not rational, and then go about their lives.
Would you work through your fear of flying if you - not exactly frequently, but not terribly rarely either - saw pilots roaming through the airports while incoherently mumbling "mh... yes.., that might be, might be a good idea... mh... kill them all....yes, just might this time..."? Oh, and when you tried reporting them you've been told that "we can do nothing about it because nothing has happened yet". I bet you would take the car, statistics be damned.
Having unpleasant encounters with jerks and creeps is absolutely nothing unusual or sensational. And yes, most women do think about it when simply walking through the city as well. Not constantly, but regularly enough to be part of our daily life. So it's just natural that we consider it when planning a hiking trip as well.
Ooh you worded this so well! I've been following the discussion and haven't posted because I don't really know how to articulate my thoughts on this subject.
I am normally all about the data and statistics, but there's that gut instinct surrounding this issue that makes it a lot harder to be totally 'rational.' The saddest part is, it's not actually an instinct -- it's a mentality drilled into women practically from birth, by a society that tells them their actions and choices are to blame, should they ever become a victim of a terrible crime.
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What I realized was how I'd placed solo hiking into some way different category (vs. all of my other solo activities). Reminds me of people who are afraid of plane crashes, but jump into a car without a second thought even though car crashes are more likely.
The only suggestion I have is that you take some time by yourself to hike in the safest place you can imagine (using many of the above safety suggestions) and contemplate why you've put solo hikes in this place. What do they mean to you? That solo meditation in the woods helped me quite a bit and in more ways than just feeling better while hiking. I changed parts of my life for the better because my fear of solo hikes was not just about solo hiking. It reflected other fears.
What a fantastic suggestion. I'd already decided to start this process with beach hikes at some popular areas and then build up from there. I'll add this mindfulness exercise to that activity. The meditation idea is excellent because hiking solo is about me 1) preparing myself well and then 2) having a mindset that allows me to enjoy doing something I love. Thank you for this idea.
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You could also use an eperb (emergency response beacon) used for boating... pull the pin and it sends a satellite signal with your location to the emergency services. Cheaper than the sat phone option...
Great idea - will look into this too. Thanks!
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Thanks to the OP for opening my eyes on this concept. I hike a lot, often alone, and just haven't ever had reason to wonder if women were comfortable doing the same. 2 seconds of consideration on the topic raises the obvious safety and hazards that many women face in our society, but I had never really connected it to hiking before.
Do whatever you feel makes you comfortable hiking. We are all blessed with amazing outdoor spaces here in North America (and elsewhere). Make the most of it, it's good to be alive. But it isn't good to be afraid while accessing it, and I sincerely hope you can figure out what works for you to help mitigate or address those fears.
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I've hiked and car camped by myself tons, but mostly Western Canada and Alaska (But also in other countries when I've traveled - Australia, Mexico, China, etc). I try to be vigilant to dangers but it's the same as any solo travel, I'm not going to let fear kept me from not doing it. I've had some amazing experiences and been to amazing places. I enjoy traveling by myself, I'll take the risk that goes with it.
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The first responses I saw from men were heavy on dismissing the OP's concern and mansplaining. I did not mean your posts, which I thought were very insightful. I should have said "Some men" or "the first few men."
What is it that motivates you to use a word like "mansplaining"? Do you like using other similar words to complain about your stereotypes of any other genders, races, or religions? Or do you just enjoy speaking that way when you're talking about men?
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Do whatever you feel makes you comfortable hiking. We are all blessed with amazing outdoor spaces here in North America (and elsewhere). Make the most of it, it's good to be alive. But it isn't good to be afraid while accessing it, and I sincerely hope you can figure out what works for you to help mitigate or address those fears.
Thanks rocketpj! With the help of the folks who've posted on this thread, I'm now on my way. :-)
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Do whatever you feel makes you comfortable hiking. We are all blessed with amazing outdoor spaces here in North America (and elsewhere). Make the most of it, it's good to be alive. But it isn't good to be afraid while accessing it, and I sincerely hope you can figure out what works for you to help mitigate or address those fears.
Thanks rocketpj! With the help of the folks who've posted on this thread, I'm now on my way. :-)
And you know what Exhale? If you do venture out alone and you just can't quite find a level safety and security you are comfortable with, then just find other like minded people to join you. Hiking alone, while probably pretty safe from human predators, doesn't mean you'll end of feeling safe no matter what statistic say. It's an emotional feeling that varies from person to person - not some kind of failing because you aren't tough enough or whatever. It really is no big deal to feel that way at all. Find whatever comfort level works for you and work within that frame, not what anyone here or elsewhere tells you how you i]should[/i] feel (heck I once thought I was being chased by a werewolf in broad daylight on a trail - the mind just goes there sometimes :-)!). Experiment on trails you are familiar with and just see how it goes. If it doesn't work out doing it solo, check out meet ups and places like the Sierra club for companions.
Thanks Spartana! In fact, an unexpected benefit of this thread has been finding two local MMM folks with whom to go hiking.
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Credit goes to Spartana for posting this link in another older thread. It's a photo wall of women solo cycling around the world. Wow: Women On Wheels.
http://www.skalatitude.com/p/wow-women-on-wheels.html
I've done quite a bit of solo hiking, car camping & trail running (have to be very selective on this last one. Running thru the woods can make you look like prey to mountain lions.) DH hates camping; thinks it's gross. So I either have to (a) drum up GFs who are active & enjoy camping or (b) go solo.
Yes, I do feel fear sometimes & remain alert (need to stop watching that dang show Criminal Minds!) but for the most part just feel so happy that I have good health & can go outside to enjoy our gorgeous, amazing country side!!
And now that I've checked out WOW... I want to start planning my own bike trips once I FIRE too!
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Thanks Spartana! In fact, an unexpected benefit of this thread has been finding two local MMM folks with whom to go hiking.
That's awesome! Now I am so jealous!!
Hope it works out well & Happy Trails to you.
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TLDR: I feel like guns, and even pepper spray, are overrated.
Feel safe hiking alone - generally yes. My biggest worry is that I'll slip, hit my head, and drown in a couple feet of water while crossing a stream.
I've had more than 50 run-ins with black bears (including around twenty in one year) while hiking. In almost all cases, the bear runs away. Only a couple times did the bear stand its ground, and that was when it had cubs. (Bears around dumpers are a different story!) Bears charge very quickly - at about 30mph - 44 feet per second - and you need to hit a /very/ small target or you just annoy the bear. You generally only have a few seconds from when you see a bear to when it is on you, if it's going to attack (so I'm told, I haven't experienced a charge). A handgun would be practically useless unless you're a trained crack shot, and have the gun in hand, and you're lucky.
Even pepper spray is no panacea. You have to wait until the bear is practically on top of you. Yeah, it shoots 30 feet. But it's not that accurate at that range, and it's spread out more, etc... and again, the bear will be on you in seconds. Actually less than one second.
I practiced with pepper spray. First with a big bottle that I had carried for 6 months in the side pocket of my backpack. It didn't shoot at all! (I didn't investigate why - I bought a new one.) In retrospect, the bear would have had me by the time I got the thing out and shot it anyway. I would sleep with pepper spray with me, but my understanding is that bears can smell it, and they might think it smells like food.
About humans - even as a big guy, I've met a few that made me think. But... they were guys with guns. Hunters, who seemed like (no evidence) they might have had a few while hanging out in the tree stands. I'm not sure how the gun would fare with them. (Note that most hunters I've bumped into have given me a smile and wave, this minority seemed like the type that shoot at those robot deer.)
I often hike with a friend on long hikes nowadays, but that's more about enjoying their company. But I recognize there's safety in numbers.
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What I realized was how I'd placed solo hiking into some way different category (vs. all of my other solo activities). Reminds me of people who are afraid of plane crashes, but jump into a car without a second thought even though car crashes are more likely.
The only suggestion I have is that you take some time by yourself to hike in the safest place you can imagine (using many of the above safety suggestions) and contemplate why you've put solo hikes in this place. What do they mean to you? That solo meditation in the woods helped me quite a bit and in more ways than just feeling better while hiking. I changed parts of my life for the better because my fear of solo hikes was not just about solo hiking. It reflected other fears.
What a fantastic suggestion. I'd already decided to start this process with beach hikes at some popular areas and then build up from there. I'll add this mindfulness exercise to that activity. The meditation idea is excellent because hiking solo is about me 1) preparing myself well and then 2) having a mindset that allows me to enjoy doing something I love. Thank you for this idea.
Glad you found it helpful!
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I think the main enemy is in our head.
I agree. And I agree that it's hard to work through it.
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But as a single female hiking alone in the wilds, running into a bunch of semi-drunk armed male hunters IS very scary for very different reasons. Generally best to be avoided if possible. Bears, especially black bear, aren't too much of an issue but the brown bears in Alaska (where nearly everyone pretty much carries a large caliber handgun when hiking) aren't quite as timid. But really not a problem either.
Oh, I totally agree that avoiding the problem is best. Those guys are wildcards. I wouldn't want to be a woman in that situation.
Brown bears I don't have any experience with. My understanding is that pepper spray is better at stopping them, if only because it's easier to hit them. (I'd still want to be carrying a firearm in Alaska.)
To riff on what you said about avoidance (from http://www.outsideonline.com/1899301/shoot-or-spray-best-way-stop-charging-bear):
<quote>
“Hitting a target the size of a baseball, especially when the target’s coming at you at 30 miles an hour and swaying side to side, isn’t easy,” says Stephen Herrero, who is among those who have actually accomplished such a feat. “All of our research continues to show that the basics of safety aren’t about how you well you deploy a firearm or how effectively you get to your bear spray, but how you avoid getting in those situations in the first place.”
</quote>
When I hike, especially alone, I cook in a different place than where I sleep. I sleep away from problem bear areas, etc...
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As the gun folks say "when seconds matter, the police are only minutes away." That couldn't be anymore truer than on a far away trail.
This. Makes sense to be prepared when you can't rely on help from anyone else.
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"Some cop said" is not much of an argument. I've spent the better part of 40 years in the backcountry, quite a bit of that time as a professional, and never encountered so much as a mugging, so there's your counter-anecdote.
Or, you could look at violent crime stats:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#/media/File:Violent_crime_rates_by_gender_1973-2003.jpg
Or rape numbers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics#/media/File:Rapes_per_1000_people_1973-2003.jpg
From the article: "Contrary to widespread belief, rape outdoors is rare. Over two thirds of all rapes occur in someone's home. 31% occur in the perpetrators' homes, 27% in the victims' homes and 10% in homes shared by the victim and perpetrator. 7% occur at parties, 7% in vehicles, 4% outdoors and 2% in bars." ( Abbey, A., BeShears, R., Clinton-Sherrod, A. M., & McAuslan, P. (2004). Psychology of Women Quarterly, 28, 323–332."Similarities and differences in women's sexual assault experiences based on tactics used by the perpetrator". Accessed 9 July 2008.)
I would guess that basically all the rapes outdoors are happening in urban areas, rather than on hiking trails, but I don't have numbers on that.
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Well yeah, there are probably more rapes in urban areas. That's where the people are.
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Female, 5'3". Some years back there was a rapist attacking in the Desolation wilderness in Tahoe. I wanted to go on a 3 day hike/camp into the backcountry but my friends were freaking out and insisted I bring their dog (mine had just died, which is why I needed the head space).
I left later in the afternoon than I planned, and was moving along when I came upon a guy just sitting on a boulder. I nodded, and said hi...he just ignored me until I got even with him and then stared at my breasts...
Creeped me out. Then their silly Samoyed (so NOT a guard dog!) ran over, tail wagging, and tried to kiss him: he stared straight out in front of him with a thousand yard stare as though the dog and I didn't exist. As I dragged the dog away from him I noticed he had zero equipment: not even a canteen. And he was wearing loafers, not hiking boots.
I dragged the dog off him and literally ran uphill. He followed me for about two miles. A couple times I stopped and thought I'd wait him out in an area where he couldn't sneak up on me...he stopped and waited me out. I kept moving until full on dark, and just climbed into the sleeping bag and pulled the dog in after me.
And I always 'pack' after that experience.
Wish it was the only incident in Tahoe but I've had creepers follow me off the remote beaches, etc. One grabbed me and I kicked him and ran off...he followed me up to the road and tried to follow me further in his car but I ditched him by passing a bus on a blind curve, then hiding in the turnout: he had no way to turn around before I'd taken off the other way.
If you're on a very popular trail in full daylight and within shouting distance of someone else....maybe. But I think a big dog and a gun are the reality for me. There's some creepy people in the world.
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There is far more to fear in metropolitan areas than there ever will be in isolated and remote wilderness. If you are experienced go for it, if not gain the requisite experience. I live in the least populated state in the union and one could roam free for weeks and see no other people. Tell someone your planned itinerary and make it happen.
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I had a friend come visit today, and it made me think of this thread. She was on her way home from a solo camping trip. She said that there were a number of different people she came across near her campsite and while walking - a pair of young female British backpackers, two Muslim men, a large group of male mountain bikers, etc. She said that the interesting thing was that although she said "Hello" to all of them as their paths crossed, not a single person would return her welcome. She said they just kept giving her strange glances, like she must be a bit mentally disturbed as a lone, female camper. We joked around that perhaps they were worried she had murdered her husband and buried him in the bush!
As for my own answer to the OP, I fear being out anywhere by myself. Even with our three children along, I feel more comfortable in a very large group of women and children (safety in numbers), or if my husband is with us. I wouldn't plan a solo hike, or a hike for just myself and our kids. It is sad in some ways, but I feel safer when my husband is with us.
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There is far more to fear in metropolitan areas than there ever will be in isolated and remote wilderness. If you are experienced go for it, if not gain the requisite experience. I live in the least populated state in the union and one could roam free for weeks and see no other people. Tell someone your planned itinerary and make it happen.
How would you qualify countries such The Netherlands, where you are never further away than 30 minutes from the next parking lot, no matter where you go for a walk?
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If you are looking at rape statistics, http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Rape-rate shows comparisons by country of rape reported to police. USA, New Zealand and Australia all rate highly. India is very low. So one has to wonder! However, I suspect that OECD countries possibly have similar laws (laws about rape vary and some countries have no rape by a husband, for example) and similar respect for the police force (in some countries many rapes are by the military or condoned by police), so comparisons between these countries might be reasonable.
As someone previously pointed out, this sort of crime is rarely perpetrated outside a building.
Of course, we are not really talking about rape, but these statistics probably bear some relationship to the subject and statistics we actually are talking about.
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I was reminded of this video while reading this thread and how some are dismissing women's fears of encountering an unfamiliar man alone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A
Now, imagine how a woman would feel encountering any one of these men alone on a hike. It's not like she could just cross the street or go into a store or feel safe because there are other people around and he likely wouldn't do anything. While it is a remote chance that one of these guys would be on a hike, and if he were that he further escalate it past the verbal assaults, when you are a woman who has been in similar situations countless times throughout her life (and I guarantee all women have at some point, and probably so many times she can't even count) it makes you pause to put yourself in situations where things could get dangerous. There is a very real attitude of some guys that women owe them something, a "smile" or a conversation, or the scary part, more, simply by nature of being a woman.
While statistically unlikely anything will happen, I won't hike alone. I had a scary moment while out on a trail by our house, in a populated suburban area, while accompanied by my husband, that was enough to make me not even go on those trails alone.
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I've hiked alone in three countries, including one with one of the highest murder/rape rates in the world. I'm fine.
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...isolated and remote wilderness.
How would you qualify countries such The Netherlands, where you are never further away than 30 minutes from the next parking lot, no matter where you go for a walk?
This is a neighborhood stroll. I have done urban hiking in cities of 10-15 million that were more remote than what you are describing. Hiking tends to embody a bit more than just a stroll around the local park in my mind.
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Haha, a neighbourhood stroll :-) But it's all we have here, and I try to make the most of it, you can walk for as many hours as you want but it's all flat, and none is wild or remote. Which for me equates the risk more to the risks in urban areas, than to those in remote wilderness. Would you agree?
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Please remember that most people who set out on journeys to remote and isolated wilderness areas to hike and backpack are there for similar reasons you are and generally are souls satisfied with life and have little interest in traveling hundreds of miles, trekking thousands of feet and braving intense physically demanding terrain to lie wait in a bush an murder random others seeking the same experience. You are more likely to get interesting stories and learn new things from the interaction.
Kind of reminds me of the difference between breaking down in your car on a rural highway in Wyoming vs Southern California. They actually stop and HELP you. Imagine that...
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Haha, a neighbourhood stroll :-) But it's all we have here, and I try to make the most of it, you can walk for as many hours as you want but it's all flat, and none is wild or remote. Which for me equates the risk more to the risks in urban areas, than to those in remote wilderness. Would you agree?
You make a good point and I would tend to agree for the reasons I posted earlier. I suspect campgrounds easily accessible from metro areas and close to subdivisions and shopping malls would have far more likelihood of crime and problems than those on the Montana/Canadian border for example. I am more concerned about walking at night down the Las Vegas Strip than spending weeks in the Canadian Rockies.
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We were hiking a remote trail in WA state and encountering a muttering wild haired guy who just grunted past us on the trail. When I turned to look back I saw a gun tucked in his pants above his butt. It did make me think about two legged critters, especially since there *have* been hikers killed here in WA state.
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I thought about this thread for a few days, while hiking, albeit not alone.
It might be useful to differentiate between hiking and backpacking. And it's useful to know if the activity is in an area where wildlife attacks are common, etc...
I was thinking back to backpackers/peak baggers I've met on the trails in the last year. Perhaps 1 out of 10 solo hikers were women. They were almost always middle aged or older. One in her twenties was hiking the AT. One was a ranger. (I met a few who worked at the AMC huts, not sure if they should count.) I met no solo woman hikers during the winter. Solo backpacking in the winter here is dangerous for either sex, but guys seem to be more likely to take risks. (Notable exception (http://www.concordmonitor.com/home/15709033-95/rescue-crews-continue-to-search-for-missing-ny-hiker-near-mount-madison-and-mount), but I didn't meet her.)
Guys (including myself) have a hard time getting out of the "male privilege" perspective. Regardless of the actual risks, there's social conditioning at play.
Biases: Personally, I'm suspicious of guys hiking with handguns - no matter how friendly they seem - unless they have what I consider a really good reason to carry. This is just based on personal experience, and it would change if I hiked in Canada or Alaska. I'm much less biased against women who carry handguns.
I wonder if women are socially conditioned to feel the same way about guys in general as I feel about guys openly carrying.
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I also cook and sleep in different places, as well as hang my pack high just to make sure they don't mess up my stuff. Not too worried about them attacking though. I think in reality a bear attack (or really any wild animal) is so unlikely that no one has to worry about it. Now getting your camp site trashed IS a worry. I've been camping at very a populated public campground in Yellowstone and the bears just get into everything. Tent and campsite next door to mine just got trashed. Kind of scary but I slept right thru it.
Slept right through it... Hahaha. But I know what you mean. There were bear problems like that around my area a decade ago or so, until the FS put up bear boxes. With some exceptions though, along the Appalachian Trail, it's raccoons, porcupines, and (especially) mice that are the troublemakers. I've slept right through mice playing acrobat to get at my food. They managed to munch right through the bear bag and spill out the contents. And I slept right through this all, happening just feet away. :)
It made me think twice about what would happen if a bear came upon me when I was sleeping. Or even if a deer or moose wandered into my sleeping area.
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Since the OP asked for tips on hiking solo with less worry, I'll share mine. I am an average to small woman who does a lot of hiking and trail running, mostly in open space preserves and large county parks adjacent to metro areas. I was attacked but not raped on the sidewalk next to my house 30 years ago. I screamed and fought and the guy ran off after a few seconds. This has caused me to be somewhat hypervigilant even to this day.
Here's what I do: go in the morning when there are more hikers out there (someone will hear me if I scream) go regularly, and stay mostly on trails already familiar to me. That way if I have to run I will know where I am going. Of fight or flight I will always opt for the latter, and I would never, ever carry a gun - I am far too excitable. Thankfully I have never had a problem, and agree with those posters who assure you the risk is miniscule. The problem is the fear is real even if is disproportionate to the risk. The solution, for me anyway, is to not give in to the fear. The more I do the activity the more I recognize the fear as irrational. And I love the activity so much that I almost never feel afraid while I am doing it, and appreciate the other people on the trails as kindred spirits.
I have not tried solo camping or backpacking yet but it does appeal to me. I guess I am working up to it - another project for FIRE.
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I'm a single woman who enjoys the outdoors - hiking and camping. I do hike alone. I usually feel safe. But I get the OP's concerns.
I try to be cognizant of what type of area I'm in. Secluded trails in parks of metro areas are probably not as safe regarding the human factor as trails in State parks or less populated areas. Generally speaking, of course. I rely on gut-instinct and intuition and don't push the limits of safety and length of hikes. If an area I haven't been to feels creepy for whatever reason, I don't hike there. I have a small dog - 30 lb Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, who now hikes with me. I realize he is no protection, but he does alert me to other's presence and also has a sixth sense about potential danger.
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As far as men being less biased against women carrying firearms, that's probably because men don't usually feel threatened by women in any situation (OK, except for their ex-wives :-)!). I think most men believe they can easily overpower a woman in any kind of situation - even if she is armed - or they believe women tend to be less violent then men overall and less likely to want to do violence to them unlike some men (armed or unarmed) might do and are capable of doing physically. It's probably the same reason most women generally aren't afraid of other women.
For me, at least, it's the later. I don't think it's that I feel threatened, or am calculating how likely I can overpower either a man or a woman. My heuristic is that a larger subset of men are hot-headed and aggressive vs women. I think I have good basis for this - for instance, financially, women are generally better traders (the study was for bond traders IIRC) precisely because they're generally more level-headed.
Individuals vary, of course.
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Would you feel safe picking up a pair of hitchhikers in a relatively remote area? Probably not. Probably not 95% of men would.
Every time I see this tread title I feel less and less safe for some reason. Perhaps it is the bringing it to light deal?
So I am checking on sourcing a new clip for my little 22 handgun and probably will be taking it with me camping and hiking and hell just about anywhere in the future.
Bottom line IMHO --- A female especially is not "safe" hiking alone in remote areas or even moderately traveled areas for that matter. Most men are probably safer by a large percentage. A male/female couple is probably pretty safe due to the number factor.
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Every time I see this tread title I feel less and less safe for some reason. Perhaps it is the bringing it to light deal?
Oh no! I didn't mean this to be an outcome of my OP. I just was looking for how others have found ways to move through this particular fear.
As I've worked on this I realized that it's like any number of fears in that it may or may not be statistically accurate/realistic, but it's real (in my mind) and, therefore, must be addressed. Yes, women face a number of disadvantages and so do many many other people (black men, people with disabilities, a man who prefers to wear a dress, elderly people, etc., etc.) My goal in the OP was to get tips on how, given the fears that most (all) of us have, to move through and beyond them to do a much-loved activity.
The responses to this thread has been fantastic and incredibly helpful, offering as they did a mix of concrete safety steps, practices and tools as well as way to deal with my mind/emotions. I'm grateful to everyone for so generously offering their ideas and suggestions. These have allowed me to feel I can be ready (in practical and mental terms). It won't be easy at first, but I feel that I now know what I need to know to get back out there and hike.
Thank you everyone!
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I hike alone quite a bit and love it. Risks from other people are generally pretty small out here in the western US. If there is someone creepy, then use caution. Honestly, I can think of very few times I've run into creepy folks away from the super-highway trails. I also worked as a ranger in a popular national park for a lot of summers and heard exactly one report of mischief in the backcountry: someone had their rack of climbing gear stolen from their tent at a popular group camping area not many miles out. Your drive out to the trailhead is probably more dangerous. IMHO firearms are unlikely to be useful unless you are truly open carrying, which would make most backcountry users identify you as the creepy guy (true or not). A very small container of pepper spray is much more appropriate, easier to use, and - importantly - less lethal. Carrying firearms for bear protection in Alaska is a whole different ballgame and generally involves equipment more on the Dirty Harry end of the spectrum.
Hiking in populated areas and County-type parks at the edges of urban areas should be treated like you would more urban parks. If you feel uncomfortable, strap a small container of pepper spray to your shoulder straps and keep on truckin'. Pepper spray is available in keychain-sized dispensers.
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Biases: Personally, I'm suspicious of guys hiking with handguns - no matter how friendly they seem - unless they have what I consider a really good reason to carry. This is just based on personal experience, and it would change if I hiked in Canada or Alaska. I'm much less biased against women who carry handguns.
Maybe Alaska. It would be very odd to see someone in Canada carrying a sidearm. Especially in a National Park, where your firearms must be sealed by the rangers on entry.
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Biases: Personally, I'm suspicious of guys hiking with handguns - no matter how friendly they seem - unless they have what I consider a really good reason to carry. This is just based on personal experience, and it would change if I hiked in Canada or Alaska. I'm much less biased against women who carry handguns.
Maybe Alaska. It would be very odd to see someone in Canada carrying a sidearm. Especially in a National Park, where your firearms must be sealed by the rangers on entry.
That's what I was thinking! I'm Canadian and would be PRETTY surprised if I saw someone with a gun hiking.
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I've hiked alone in three countries, including one with one of the highest murder/rape rates in the world. I'm fine.
You're a guy, right?
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A woman was raped last year on one of my favorite trails by a man walking with his dog. I try to stay in somewhat populated trails, but like to get out to be alone, so being in a crowd kind of defeats the purpose! I try to be very aware of the people near me, but really should get a little mini pepper spray canister.
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It's happened around here also a few time - close to urban hiking trails where lots of women go alone to workout. But even having a male companion doesn't mean safety. The other night a woman sitting on the beach with her BF (both in their 40's) was raped by a guy with a gun. He made her BF lay face down in the sand and then sexually assaulted the GF. It was on a normally safe beach close to town to a couple who were sitting watching the stars at night. Of course it was at night but this is a place where many people jog and walk on the sand at all hours for recreation.
See, now if later this guy is arrested and either the BF or woman walks up and kills him Jack Ruby style, I would not be able to convict them. Maybe that makes me a bad person.
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There is a popular jungle hiking trail a couple of miles from our place which was closed this week. News said more than fifty people were robbed on the trail last month. No violence reported but certainly possible. Police have said it is very difficult to ensure safety in the area. If I hike it I will probably have to go without a phone, wallet, etc. One lady I know said she saw muggers take car keys and throw them into the bushes.
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I'm also single and depend on situational awareness to make me feel "safer" on a hike. I honestly keep the attitude that anything can happen to me because I'm female at any time not just when I'm doing "dangerous" things like walking in the woods by myself so why limit myself. I'm more worried about things like falls when I'm by myself than people. On the other hand, I'm a decent runner so I'm always ready to put distance between myself an attacker and have the attitude that I don't have to "win" I just have to get far enough away from them that they can't catch me.
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I had a friend come visit today, and it made me think of this thread. She was on her way home from a solo camping trip. She said that there were a number of different people she came across near her campsite and while walking - a pair of young female British backpackers, two Muslim men, a large group of male mountain bikers, etc. She said that the interesting thing was that although she said "Hello" to all of them as their paths crossed, not a single person would return her welcome. She said they just kept giving her strange glances, like she must be a bit mentally disturbed as a lone, female camper. We joked around that perhaps they were worried she had murdered her husband and buried him in the bush!
As for my own answer to the OP, I fear being out anywhere by myself. Even with our three children along, I feel more comfortable in a very large group of women and children (safety in numbers), or if my husband is with us. I wouldn't plan a solo hike, or a hike for just myself and our kids. It is sad in some ways, but I feel safer when my husband is with us.
Personally, I quit saying hello to women on the trail because I am sick of being treated like a rapist for doing so. I always say hi to families or groups of men and I'm normally very friendly to people I meet on the trail but every time I say hi to a woman (alone or in groups of only women) I get nothing but hateful stares at the best so I've quit doing it altogether. I believe this is just a failure to adequately assess risk, similar to fears of terrorism or stranger kidnapping. I totally empathize with women in this situation, the fear is real and it is awful that they should feel this way about doing such an enjoyable activity but I think the fear is more due to societal conditioning and media sensationalism than actual risk.
To the OP, do what you feel you need to to feel safe, please don't deprive yourself of an activity you enjoy because of your fear. If it takes bear spray or a gun or a dog to give you a feeling of empowerment then go for it!
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I think people dismissing the fear due to having a much greater statistical chance of being killed or hurt by nature are missing the point.
It's a question of intent. The avalanche doesn't intend to kill you, neither does the slippery rock or steep hill. The person does intend to hurt/kill you.
Yes, I should be more concerned about riding my car to work than about going through that alleyway after the bar at 2am, but you know what? Motorists on their way to work aren't trying to kill me but some dude lurking around in an alleyway might have that intent.
I'm a huge dude. If i'm in an isolated area (or it's late at night etc.) and I see another person (especially a guy) my spidey sense goes off, whether it's warranted or not. I'm usually not "scared" really, I am just really aware of what that person is doing for the duration of the encounter. Maybe I'm the person people mistake as a creep at night because I want to make SURE that other person sees me seeing them as I go about my route.
As for open carrying while hiking, I'll just say this - I've never owned a gun, but I'd rather be perceived to be a creep with an open carry than encounter an actual creep and not have it.
All of that being said, I've never had a bad encounter with a creepy guy (probably due to my size) in my adult life.
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Maybe it depends on where you hike. I live in Durham NC. Generally I feel safe, but every year there are reports of muggings and attacking in either Duke Forest trails, Ellerbee creek, or American Tobacco trail on people who are solo. What is disconcerting is that these are popular trials, where people take their kids. Even if it is a couple people a year that get attacked, for me that is enough of an additional risk I would think twice about going it alone. Anyways despite some people's optimism about the human race the fact is some predators use remote or isolated areas like these to target victims.
http://www.wral.com/new-cameras-on-american-tobacco-trail-won-t-be-near-site-of-recent-attacks/13724147/
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I am a small woman and I hike alone, mostly on vacation in national parks. Statistically it is really unlikely that someone is going to attack me. It seems more likely that I'd get lost (no sense of direction) and so I try to check the gps on my phone every so often to make sure I haven't wandered off the trail.
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Personally, I quit saying hello to women on the trail because I am sick of being treated like a rapist for doing so. I always say hi to families or groups of men and I'm normally very friendly to people I meet on the trail but every time I say hi to a woman (alone or in groups of only women) I get nothing but hateful stares at the best so I've quit doing it altogether. I believe this is just a failure to adequately assess risk, similar to fears of terrorism or stranger kidnapping. I totally empathize with women in this situation, the fear is real and it is awful that they should feel this way about doing such an enjoyable activity but I think the fear is more due to societal conditioning and media sensationalism than actual risk.
The thing is, women don't react with fear because of news stories. They react with fear because of actual previous interactions they've had with men. It's great that you're not a rapist, but women just don't know that when they come across you in an isolated spot. All they know is their previous history of men sometimes ignoring their boundaries. There's nothing irrational about this.
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I'm a short female and feel at a disadvantage (my worry is human predators)
I personally bring the great equalizer with me. It doesn't care how tall, short, light, weak, or slow you are. It has helped me do alot more solo hiking, even more so since i am a 2nd shift worker.
edit: a firearm
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30s Female here. Love to go hiking in the US. All of my negative experiences with groping, cat calls etc have all been while abroad. I worry about it every time I go out, but I don't let it stop me from enjoying the beauty of nature and the recharge I get from having this "me" time.
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A long time ago, maybe thirty years back, there was a small number of really ugly murders of female hikers, on the Appalachian trail. Shortly after, a major outdoors magazine got together with some statisticians, and found IIRC, that you are about twenty one million times safer, sleeping alone in the wilderness, while hiking the AT, that you were sleeping in your apartment in NYC.
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I am a woman. I frequently run, bike, and hike alone (although I do not do overnight hikes alone). I do occasionally see news reports of rapes occurring on trails that I use. It bothers me sometimes, but I am not willing to stop living my life. It is just not feasible to have a partner every single time I do an outdoor activity.
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My spidey senses do kick in more when on the trail alone. I carry my pocket knife and a very loud emergency whistle when I go hiking. But haven't had any issues thus far with hiking alone. But my family freaked out the first time I did it!
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I don't typically hike in areas that I'll see people, but have never felt unsafe around others in the woods.
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I hike/run/fitness walk alone most of the time. As a fairly in-shape guy I rarely feel nervous. I will say that I do tend to make single females nervous when I pass them from behind or cross paths. I feel bad that some get nervous, but I'm still gonna do my walks.
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I hike (multi-day) alone, as a small woman in her thirties in Australia. I tend to hike on the less populated areas, and will 'stealth camp' if I don't like the look of someone on the trail or at a campsite.
The farther away from a trailhead (or civilisation) the safer I feel to be honest. Most of the guys I've met that have made me feel uncomfortable have been found on very popular tracks or close to a main road.
Mace is illegal to carry (with a few exceptions in a few states) and carrying a firearm 'for self defence' is not typically the done thing in Australia.
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A long time ago, maybe thirty years back, there was a small number of really ugly murders of female hikers, on the Appalachian trail. Shortly after, a major outdoors magazine got together with some statisticians, and found IIRC, that you are about twenty one million times safer, sleeping alone in the wilderness, while hiking the AT, that you were sleeping in your apartment in NYC.
Let's say the small number was two. This would mean there were at least 42 million murders in NYC over whatever time period they studied. I must have missed this story in the news.
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The farther away from a trailhead (or civilisation) the safer I feel to be honest. Most of the guys I've met that have made me feel uncomfortable have been found on very popular tracks or close to a main road.
This! This is exactly my experience, and it makes sense - if somebody wants to attack, they will not chose isolated areas where maybe 5 people a day pass, but popular hikes. As long as it's not so crowded that people actually walk within eyesight of each other, that's the place to go (for would-be attackers).
That said, I always carry a fairly big pocket knife on my hikes (solo or not), and I've been known to "casually clean my fingernails" when I feel uncomfortable. I'm just minding my own business, but I have the knife ready for action, which gives me peace of mind and should also make anybody else think twice. Also works on trains!
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A long time ago, maybe thirty years back, there was a small number of really ugly murders of female hikers, on the Appalachian trail. Shortly after, a major outdoors magazine got together with some statisticians, and found IIRC, that you are about twenty one million times safer, sleeping alone in the wilderness, while hiking the AT, that you were sleeping in your apartment in NYC.
Let's say the small number was two. This would mean there were at least 42 million murders in NYC over whatever time period they studied. I must have missed this story in the news.
To get your 42 million number, I think you're assuming that the populations of NYC and the AT are the same. I believe the correct way to check paddlehat's recall of the 21 million factor is: 2 x 21 million x population of AT / population of NYC. Assuming 1000 people sleep on the AT each night and 20 million people sleep in the greater NYC metro each night, the number of murders in the study period would be 2,100, not 42 million. So that's at least somewhat reasonable - quick google search shows 335 people murdered in NYC in 2016. If the study period was 7 years, then it would be approximately 21 million times more likely to be murdered in NYC than on the AT (since 335 murders per year x 7 years is about 2100).
Any others want to check my math? This actually seems like a useful math problem if it would help to allay some fears about dangers of others while hiking alone.
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Yes I feel safe in the outdoors from "bad people", urban hunting grounds are much easier for them.
I have minor concerns over hurting myself, so would stray too far off path unless I was in an area with a decent signal.
I'm a small female, and feel you can't let people intimate you. I don't mind people who say hi when hiking, but people who want to walk with you do irritate me...
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A long time ago, maybe thirty years back, there was a small number of really ugly murders of female hikers, on the Appalachian trail. Shortly after, a major outdoors magazine got together with some statisticians, and found IIRC, that you are about twenty one million times safer, sleeping alone in the wilderness, while hiking the AT, that you were sleeping in your apartment in NYC.
Let's say the small number was two. This would mean there were at least 42 million murders in NYC over whatever time period they studied. I must have missed this story in the news.
To get your 42 million number, I think you're assuming that the populations of NYC and the AT are the same. I believe the correct way to check paddlehat's recall of the 21 million factor is: 2 x 21 million x population of AT / population of NYC. Assuming 1000 people sleep on the AT each night and 20 million people sleep in the greater NYC metro each night, the number of murders in the study period would be 2,100, not 42 million. So that's at least somewhat reasonable - quick google search shows 335 people murdered in NYC in 2016. If the study period was 7 years, then it would be approximately 21 million times more likely to be murdered in NYC than on the AT (since 335 murders per year x 7 years is about 2100).
Any others want to check my math? This actually seems like a useful math problem if it would help to allay some fears about dangers of others while hiking alone.
I think being safer can be meaningfully quantified only by the probability, not just a count of incidents. NYC's murder rate is 3 per 100,000 per year (though not sure how many of those occur while "sleeping in your apartment"). A murder rate 21M times lower on the AP would imply an AP murder rate of 1.4 per 1 trillion per year. Using all violent crime in NYC instead we have 600 per 100,000 per year for the city and 2.9 per 10 billion for the AP.
Assuming 5 murders over the last 50 years on the AP (https://www.outsideonline.com/2011326/murder-appalachian-trail) and 10,000 people on the trail each night, that is a murder rate of 1 per 100,000 per year, or 3 times safer than NYC (and 3 times more dangerous than Japan). I think the PCT is safer (zero murders?).
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Chances of being murderd anywhere can be effectively mitigated to the point that the chance is effectively zero. I say this because when you look at the majority of those murdered, they were engaging in behaviors which greatly increased their risk of murder. Totally random daylight murders in relatively safe public places are extremely rare.
I live in a city with a super high murder rate including those shot by police. I hear sustained automatic rifle fire a couple times a month within a kilometer of my apt. But I limit where I go during daylight and limit further where I go after dark. I restrict the people with whom I associate and the activities in which I engage to minimize my chance of being murdered. I walk the dog at all hours and am not overly concerned although I'm pretty aware of surroundings at all times and actively spot and avoid people on the street who appear dangerous. I would feel a million times safer hiking anywhere in North America including grizzley areas.
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I think you should start with thinking through few things first
- how important is this activity to me
- what I am willing and not willing to do in particular situations (protecting myself from say rapist of opportunity or some other scumbag)? am I willing to use force to stop them, if yes, to what extent ,etc ? What about someone else, am I willing to deploy force if I think I am defending other? where are my boundaries? when will I act? when will I act without hesitation?
The more thinking/mental processing you can do in advance, the better your chances are should you have to face it - the time to think through all of the dilemmas and go through soul searching is NOT when you are facing the situation.
If you are willing to use force and your laws/jurisdiction allow you to carry a firearm, it should be first consideration - it is the best tool specifically designed for that purpose (protecting your life and health). Get something that suits you, learn how to use it and it is no more complicated than any other tool you already use successfully.
if you are willing to use force and your laws don't allow that (move!) , then either concealed means concealed or fall back to other tools (spray, hand to hand weapons, etc). Just know that effectiveness (both as deterrent and in stopping power) or all other tools is significantly smaller than that of the firearm.
if you are not willing to use force to protect your health and self, then think through other plans and again consider priority of the activity for your life.
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SnackDog,
Thank you for your perspective, basically - don't go to stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things ,right?
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You all realize the murder (or murder and rape) aren't the only bad things that can happen, right?
I think dismissing these concerns by tossing out numbers on murder stats grossly misses the larger point. And I think generally the people who do that are men who are good, respectful people, and thus they simply can't imagine the reality, because it is so far removed from the way they think. And that's a good thing, but it can cause some unfair assumptions about the women who are nervous about engaging with strangers. It can make them look unreasonable or paranoid or snobby. But the reality is that not everyone is kind and decent and respectful, and she has no way of knowing which type you are.
http://yourdailydish.com/man-harasses-belly-dancer-facebook/ (http://yourdailydish.com/man-harasses-belly-dancer-facebook/) Here's a semi-related story about a woman on Facebook who was contacted by a man. He kept asking her if she found him attractive. She asked him not to call her again after her repeatedly did and she did not respond. Then he got crazy, insulting her and messaging her again and again and again. Read it. And all that came because she asked him not to call her again and didn't respond to Facebook messages from a stranger asking if she found him attractive.
You wonder why a woman might look away when you smile at her, especially in a semi-isolated area? She probably doesn't think you are going to rape and murder her, but she may well think--for good reason and based on many life experiences--that there is a not-insignificant chance that even the slightest engagement will lead to harassment. It happens. So much. And people who are good and decent and respectful people have a hard time accepting that, because they and the people with whom they surround themselves would never behavior that way, so it doesn't appear to be the reality of life. But it happens. Ask any woman who does online dating sites how many unsolicited dick pics she's gotten, or how many times she's been called nasty names for not responding exactly as the sender would have liked.
So yes, it makes women defensive. And no, that's not because we are too dumb at accurately assess risk. It's because experience has shown us that when we engage, it can and does turn brutal rather quickly, especially in isolation (like Facebook, or a hiking trail where there is no one to witness bad behavior). I'm sure it sucks a lot to smile at someone and have them avert their eyes. Having lived in Europe and smiled at people like an American is wont to do and a German is not, I get it. But try to understand that there's a good reason for it, shored up by plenty of ugly experiences.
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You wonder why a woman might look away when you smile at her, especially in a semi-isolated area? She probably doesn't think you are going to rape and murder her, but she may well think--for good reason and based on many life experiences--that there is a not-insignificant chance that even the slightest engagement will lead to harassment. It happens. So much. And people who are good and decent and respectful people have a hard time accepting that, because they and the people with whom they surround themselves would never behavior that way, so it doesn't appear to be the reality of life. But it happens. Ask any woman who does online dating sites how many unsolicited dick pics she's gotten, or how many times she's been called nasty names for not responding exactly as the sender would have liked.
So yes, it makes women defensive. And no, that's not because we are too dumb at accurately assess risk. It's because experience has shown us that when we engage, it can and does turn brutal rather quickly, especially in isolation (like Facebook, or a hiking trail where there is no one to witness bad behavior). I'm sure it sucks a lot to smile at someone and have them avert their eyes. Having lived in Europe and smiled at people like an American is wont to do and a German is not, I get it. But try to understand that there's a good reason for it, shored up by plenty of ugly experiences.
Well said.