Do you call yourself FIREd yet still work?

[sol]

When I FIRE I will still have to manage my portfolio even if it's only once or twice a year.  This is a task that I could pay a professional to do and it also earns me money.  Am I retired or Not?

You are retired. Chores & hobbies are not jobs.

I am FI.  I retired from my career. 

How does the OP define "work"?  Because I still feel pretty damn busy every day, even if I'm not exactly getting paid.

I still manage a couple of rental properties.  I was doing that while I had a career, and I'm still doing it now that I don't have a career.  Is landlording my new career?  I can technically make money from it, though the amount of money I make/lose in a given month is totally unrelated to how much work I do in a given month.  In that way it is similar to managing my investments, which I also still do after ending my career, and which also earns/loses money regardless of how much work I do.

Since leaving my career, I have updated my kitchen.  That took weeks of daily labor.  Does that not count as work because I was not getting paid for it?  Does it count as work because I was doing it myself to save money I would have otherwise paid to someone else to do it?

I am very active in a local volunteer organization.  Pretty much daily, though not on a regular schedule, and volunteer work sure feels like work sometimes even though they are not giving me a paycheck and it technically costs me money to volunteer.  There are other perks of being involved there, though, so do those fringe benefits counts as being paid and if so does that make it "work"?

I definitely consider myself retired.  In fact, it is only my retired status that allows me to do all of this other work that I'm doing instead of "working".

[Prairie Stash]

@pairariestash I can see your point (just as I can see both MMM and the IRP points) but I'm a simple basic person who just likes to use what is the most common useage for labelling things. If I retired from being a pro beach volleyball player but still played for fun it would be a hobby. But if  I coached for pay it would be a job thus to me not retired from employment. Yes I'm no longer a pro as I ceased/retired from doing that and all the "work" involved in that. But I personally wouldn't call myself a retiree with all the universally accepted notions of what retiree or retire meant by the majority if I still had a job. But that's just my definition and don't expect others to agree.

However I do think it takes away from the overall message of the ability to FI and RE to others outside this forum. Even Suze Ormand toned down her "I hate hate hate FIRE!" rant by saying that "oh so FIREees still work? Oh well in that case FIRE is possible" as if working until 70 after claiming to be RE is the only way it's possible.

Unretired is the term to describe that exact scenario. It means a return to work in the same profession from which you left. In sports its a common enough scenario to have a player retire and unretire. I also agree with your definition of retiree, almost everyone would.

Micheal Jordan unretired in 1994. Micheal is quite famous, from pop culture you probably know what he retired from and what he unretired for even if you didn't follow him at the time. At no point in 1994 was Micheal a retiree, but he was considered to be retired by pretty much everyone. Its an example similiar to what you described, it happened and we can all check it on wiki.

I also prefer the word retiree to describe the type of retired person you describe. Sol is retired and a retiree makes sense. Its a bit redundant as all retirees are retired; but not all retired people are retirees. When he starts the blog we all desire he will cease his life a retiree but he will never cease being retired from govenrnment.

At no point though has FIRE used the word retiree in lieu of Retire Early. Its always meant leave your job after making enough and then doing whatever is you want; which, for masochistic people, often means paid employment. Its a non-judgemental acronym, it says you can do whatever you want afterwards, no questions asked until the likes of Suze come along and try to distort the meaning in order to win cheap points.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

I'd have to say that this nuanced use of 'retired and retiree' does not really solve 'the problem'.  Apparently using some form of the word 'retired' inspires people, especially when a young person calls them-self that, because it conjures up notions of getting all the benefits of never having to work or stress over money again at a point in life where it would be pretty sweet.  To the general layperson, hearing a 20 or 30-something call themselves retired brings up a notion of living like the landed gentry or trust fund recipients, getting 'people' to do all those things Sol mentioned he was doing while 'being retired'.  Once you mention things like managing real estate or having to do your own cost-saving labor, etc. folks immediately discount your claim of being retired.  Doing things to generate income, unless you are older or the income is negligible or donated away thus proving you don't need it, is a pretty black and white line.

In MMM's case, using 'Retired' to define himself brought attention to the benefits of Mustachianism and created some controversy, which was further fanned by making up a fictitious 'Internet Retirement Police'.  IRP are generally just folks pointing out that there is a fairly well understood definition of 'retired' and just calling yourself that (especially in MMM's case) does not change the definition.  Maybe these are modern times and Webster needs an update, but until that happens, I would personally use the words 'Retired Early' only if I'm around FIRE people.  My family, friends, and people I meet would probably have more questions and suspicions about my wealth than the shorthand of 'retired' would benefit me.  In fact, we get these threads from time to time about what ER's should tell people and call themselves, since 'retired' doesn't see to be the most useful term.

[sol]

To the general layperson, hearing a 20 or 30-something call themselves retired brings up a notion of living like the landed gentry or trust fund recipients, getting 'people' to do all those things Sol mentioned he was doing while 'being retired'.  Once you mention things like managing real estate or having to do your own cost-saving labor, etc. folks immediately discount your claim of being retired.

I don't claim to know what "folks" think about my retirement, but I know what I think.  I think it looks very much like all of the traditional retirements I have seen.  Lots of people in my extended family have worked into their 60s and then retired, and no one claims that they are not retired just because they continue to do home improvement projects or volunteer with a church or work in their garden.  All of the things that I do now are things that are normal parts of a traditional retiree's life.

But somehow, adopting that lifestyle at age 65 is clearly "being retired" but adopting it at age 41 is not? 

To the general layperson, hearing a 20 or 30-something call themselves retired brings up a notion of living like the landed gentry

I feel very much like landed gentry, except that instead of owning a slice of countryside and taxing the residents I own a slice of the US economy and receive dividends.  I also own rental properties and receive rents from the people who live there, which is creepily similar to be a feudal lord except that I bought the land using profits from the economy instead of the king gifting it to me.  In any case, I get up every morning knowing that money is flowing into my coffers because of the things that I own, and that this ownership has freed me from the obligation of laboring.  That doesn't mean I lay around all day working on my gout, though.  Even feudal lords found ways to occupy their time, and like me they chose to do things they liked to do instead of the stuff they hated.  Fox hunting is way more fun than plowing muddy fields.  Learning how to tile my kitchen was way more fun than filling out TPS reports.

Also like a feudal lord, I don't really give a damn what anyone thinks about my employment status.  Precisely because I have ascended from the peasantry, I now get to use whatever words I like and all of you hedgeborn wind-suckers have kissed the hare's foot.  Bully for me, too bad for you.

[HPstache]

Is a mother that is leaving her job to become a stay at home parent, retired?  Does it matter if her spouse still works?

[EscapeVelocity2020]

OK, let me just lay this idea out there: ultimately, it is probably just dumb for young people to call themselves 'retired' (unless the definition of the word changes).  Are there young people that will never have to work again - yes, they inherited a 5M+ fortune or whatever, they don't call themselves 'retired' because they never really 'worked'.  Are there young people that don't want to work again and might be able to afford it - yes, they are a SAHP or ER with their 4% SWR covering inflation adjusted expenses for the rest of their lives (Huge Asterisk).  Are there young people that are FIRE - yes, they capitalize on 'being retired' while profiting off of the lifestyle that they could not afford if they did not profit off of saying they were it).   

Why call yourself 'retired' if you are 40 and have no income derived from calling yourself retired as opposed to self-sufficient, there are very few blogs in this space.  MrTakoEscapes is about the only one I can think of.

[AdrianC]

I have called myself FIREd at times. Its perhaps not absolutely the correct use of the word "retired".

I've been self-employed for most of my career. I still am, but since I am FI and want to do other things I now take on much, much less work. I still do some interesting looking projects for old clients that I like. I don't do work for people I don't like, projects with schedules I don't like or projects in locations I don't like. I used to compete for most every job, running a three-ring circus of sub-contractors. Not any more.

So I'm self-employed, but not as I once was, not full-time, and I don't do it "for a living". I'm not retired in the traditional sense. I'm not working in the traditional sense, either.

I'm financially independent semi-retired early. Doesn't have quite the same cachet as FIREd.

[bacchi]

I'm financially independent semi-retired early. Doesn't have quite the same cachet as FIREd.

And that's why FIRE bloggers don't want to say that they're semi-RE.

The very fact that FIRE bloggers -- and people on this thread -- are falling all over themselves to claim that they're FIRE but still have obligations to some kind of boss or client that pays them is a glaring sign that being "FIRE" is another achievement to be gained. Simply "retired from my shitty cubicle job" isn't enough; we have to stretch the definition to gain some of the cred earned from, as someone wrote above, the landed gentry who inherited.

What's wrong with "made a career change" or "downshifted to a less stressful career" or, as above, "semi-ER and work on fun projects when I want?"

[sol]

OK, let me just lay this idea out there: ultimately, it is probably just dumb for young people to call themselves 'retired'

Whatever, dude.  Is it dumb for a 55 year old?  how about a 49 year old?  Where's the line?

I had a career.  I did it for a long time and saved up a big heaping pile of money.  Then I left that career and now I live off of my pile of money.  I am retired, at age 41.  What would I have had to do differently to meet your preferred definition of retired?

Are there young people that will never have to work again - yes, they inherited a 5M+ fortune or whatever, they don't call themselves 'retired' because they never really 'worked'.  Are there young people that don't want to work again and might be able to afford it - yes, they are a SAHP or ER with their 4% SWR covering inflation adjusted expenses for the rest of their lives (Huge Asterisk).  Are there young people that are FIRE - yes, they capitalize on 'being retired' while profiting off of the lifestyle that they could not afford if they did not profit off of saying they were it).   

I don't profit off of being or calling myself retired.  I profit from my investments, just like a retired person does.
 

The very fact that FIRE bloggers -- and people on this thread -- are falling all over themselves to claim that they're FIRE but still have obligations to some kind of boss or client that pays them is a glaring sign that being "FIRE" is another achievement to be gained.

I agree that retirement is an achievement to be gained.  I hope you get there some day.  It's pretty fucking awesome.

But I don't have any obligations that I can't walk away from.  None of my obligations are paying me a salary.  I don't work with any clients, and I certainly don't have a boss.  I am a financially independent adult. 

Simply "retired from my shitty cubicle job" isn't enough; we have to stretch the definition to gain some of the cred earned from, as someone wrote above, the landed gentry who inherited.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.  I retired from a cubicle job.  It wasn't that shitty.  I compared myself to landed gentry because, like them, I don't have to work because lots of other people are working and supporting me with the profits that they generate.  I do not seek or desire any sort of cred from literal landed gentry, or anyone else. 

Being retired from my cubicle job is absolutely enough.  In fact, it's still pretty fucking awesome. 

What's wrong with "made a career change" or "downshifted to a less stressful career" or, as above, "semi-ER and work on fun projects when I want?"

What if you just retire, like I did?  What if you don't change careers because you don't have a career anymore?  Am I invisible over here?  Why is everyone telling me that I don't exist? 

I used to work, then I retired and now I don't work any more.  I do fun stuff instead.  Nobody pays me for it, because I don't need anyone else's money.  I already have money.  Now I do stuff that I find interesting or inspiring, pretty much regardless of cost.  You know, like a retired person.

I've had lots of people tell me that I'm "not really retired" but so far I can't see the difference between my life and a retired person's life.  Except that my body is not yet old and broken down, of course.

[bacchi]

The very fact that FIRE bloggers -- and people on this thread -- are falling all over themselves to claim that they're FIRE but still have obligations to some kind of boss or client that pays them is a glaring sign that being "FIRE" is another achievement to be gained.

I agree that retirement is an achievement to be gained.  I hope you get there some day.  It's pretty fucking awesome.

I'm already retired and thanks for asking. It is awesome.

But I don't have any obligations that I can't walk away from.  None of my obligations are paying me a salary.  I don't work with any clients, and I certainly don't have a boss.  I am a financially independent adult. 

Ok, great.

Why'd you take this so personally? You're obviously not in the group of people (that I was criticizing) who still crawl out of bed every morning to go to work yet are claiming to be retired.

Simply "retired from my shitty cubicle job" isn't enough; we have to stretch the definition to gain some of the cred earned from, as someone wrote above, the landed gentry who inherited.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here.  I retired from a cubicle job.  It wasn't that shitty.  I compared myself to landed gentry because, like them, I don't have to work because lots of other people are working and supporting me with the profits that they generate.  I do not seek or desire any sort of cred from literal landed gentry, or anyone else. 

I was trying to build upon what AdrianC wrote. Being "retired" sells clicks. Being "semi-retired" doesn't, at least as much, because it puts doubt into people's minds as to whether the blogger is actually free to do what they want.

To put it another way, being ER is an achievement and it's why bloggers want to claim that mantle, even if they have to work.

[sol]

Why'd you take this so personally?

Because Escape posited that there are no young people who are truly retired, seeming to suggest that everyone who claims to be retired is in fact using a buzzword to generate income.  I am just one of many counterexamples on this forum. 

[PhilB]

Strangely enough, some people's motivation for FIRE is not just the desire to make money by blogging about it.  As to definitions, we no longer live in a world where almost everyone works full time in the same job until a national retirement age and then stops and draws a pension.  In that world it was indeed very black and white whether most people were retired or not - although even then it was complicated by the various elderly people who took little part time jobs in their retirement either to supplement their pension or just for the fun of it..
The world of work has changed massively in the last generation.  There are very few jobs for life any more and it's increasingly common to transition gradually from working full time to not working at all.  Is it really useful to reserve the word 'retired' only for the extreme end of that process? 
For me, as long as you are FI, retirement is as much a state of mind as anything else no matter what your age.  You are FI.  You have called a halt to your 'career' and have no intentions to start another one.  You define yourself in terms of your freedoms rather than your obligations.

[Metta]

There is “work” and there is “working for money” and there is “working because you have to in order to survive.” These are not the same states.

I “work” and at this point I do it for self-actualization and make no money from it. I expect that I will eventually make money doing this, but the money isn’t the point. I will not write something I don’t want to write, just to make money. Because I am financially independent, I don’t have to. At the same time I’m not going to give away my work either. Money is a way of keeping score and a way to value my work appropriately.

My uncle, who worked until he died, “worked for money.” When he died he left a large estate and it was plain that he could have stopped working and lived off his investments decades ago. He chose not to because money itself was important to him. (He was a great guy, very generous, but money was important in and of itself to him.)

My sister who struggles to pay her mortgage and put food on the table without help from family works as often as she can given the vagaries of her profession. It is very much a famine/flood situation. Money is absolutely critical to her survival and that is why she works.

I don’t know that you can completely “retire” from work. Even when my parents “retired” by selling their business, they still worked. My father volunteered for various non-profits that needed accountancy and my mother became a private investigator in her seventies because she wanted to. She does the odd PI job now and then (she’s in her 80s now) and is paid for it, but the money doesn’t matter to her. The work does.

I think that there is a false understanding of work in this culture by equating it with money. Because of that false understanding we also devalue non-paid labor that our society depends on. Ask any stay-at-home mother of a toddler whether she works. She’s certainly not paid for her labor, but she works hard nonetheless.

The point of FIRE, in my opinion, is financial independence that enables self-actualization. That may mean stepping out of your current career (“retiring”) as I did. Or it may mean continuing to do what you love but with greater security (my husband’s path). The important part of it is that you don’t have to work for survival. If you have to work to survive at your preferred lifestyle, you are not yet financially independent.

[AdrianC]

I've had lots of people tell me that I'm "not really retired" but so far I can't see the difference between my life and a retired person's life.  Except that my body is not yet old and broken down, of course.

Hey Sol, you're retired. And congratulations. Nicely done.

A friend of mine recently FIREd, was a bit bored and wanted some side-hustle programming work. To help him out I took on a project I really didn't want. Last night he told me he's had a very bad medical diagnosis and won't be able to work. He just FIREd this year, from a cubicle job, now he's staring death in the face. That is fucked-up.

A reminder, if one were necessary, that life is short and uncertain. Time is precious.

[Prairie Stash]

OK, let me just lay this idea out there: ultimately, it is probably just dumb for young people to call themselves 'retired'

Whatever, dude.  Is it dumb for a 55 year old?  how about a 49 year old?  Where's the line?

55 is okay because Freedom 55 Financial says so. As long as its commercially endorsed it's acceptable, only multinationals can decide for us. They also will not accept anything less than 50, so that is the line. All hail Financial Advisors, the ultimate authority.
https://www.freedom55financial.com/

Obviously, age is the most important factor, not length of working career or earnings. Retiring should not be based on how much you saved or how many years worked, quit trying to use logic. If you are unfortunate enough to start working at 22 while your brother starts at 25, you should both retire at the same age; regardless of savings rate or career earnings, its only fair...

[NoraLenderbee]

Mr. Money Mustache vs. the Internet Retirement Police

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/13/mr-money-mustache-vs-the-internet-retirement-police/

Yes, he did write a terrible article on the subject....

See, he misses out on the point when he fails to realize that :

re·tired
/rəˈtī(ə)rd/Submit
adjective
1.
having left one's job and ceased to work.

Is the definition of retired. NOT "“Retired” means you no longer have to work for money, and you are aware of this fact" as he states is what it means. It has a definition, and just because he wants to call himself retired doesn't mean he gets to change the basic definition of the word.

Thank you. This forum seems to define retired as "anything Pete/MMM does." Like, he decided to define himself as "retired," and so anything he does is "retirement." The Internet Retirement Police are the ones who try to enforce that definition.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

I agree that retirement is an achievement to be gained.  I hope you get there some day.  It's pretty fucking awesome.

That is probably a key difference between you and I Sol, I would say that FI is an achievement to be gained.  All I need to do to 'retire' at this point would be to write up a letter, sign it, put it on my boss' desk, and stop showing up to work.  I would not consider that an achievement, it'll just happen.  In fact, I've done it twice before, before I was FI even!

I used to work, then I retired and now I don't work any more.  I do fun stuff instead.  Nobody pays me for it, because I don't need anyone else's money.  I already have money.  Now I do stuff that I find interesting or inspiring, pretty much regardless of cost.  You know, like a retired person.

I've had lots of people tell me that I'm "not really retired" but so far I can't see the difference between my life and a retired person's life.  Except that my body is not yet old and broken down, of course.

I do fun stuff, but people call it work!  Why can't I just call myself retired if I am doing what I want to do and paying other people to do things I don't want to do or don't have time to do.  I get paid a salary that I no longer need (hence paying other people for their labor), but I do like getting company provided healthcare, paid vacations, business travel, housing in Paris near work, paid to get culture and language training, etc.  In my case, 'retirement' would mean finding my own health care plan, not getting paid to go on vacations, having to buy my own plane tickets and living arrangements, being a tourist rather than a local colleague...  so retirement sounds worse to me than continuing to work!

Also don't get me started on SAHP's (Retire by 40, Mr. Tako) that can call themselves retired when it suits them.  I would never dream of calling my wife retired (other than on this forum).  She certainly does not consider herself 'retired' although she's been a substitute teacher on and off for about the last 10 years while we've traveled.

But back to my main point, other than to FIRE people, do you tell the average person you meet that you are retired?  Neighbors, people older than you that are working, family, etc.?  I'm genuinely curious, sorry if I struck a nerve earlier with careless use of the word 'dumb'.  And how is it going, surely you get some confused looks?  For me, I would imagine I'd either get asked if I'm a stay at home Dad or between jobs (aka unemployed).  I don't think I ever said young people never retire, I was just pointing out that it is an awkward word (especially when MMM used it while making 400k/yr building his brand).  He was having fun doing his blogging 'hobby' but it seemed in a way very much like my job (or worse, because at least I can always leave it all 'at the office').  If you've ever blogged for income, there are a lot of tedious things around managing the back end ads and partners, comments, keeping the thing up and looking good, keeping links active, fighting off spam and evaluating questionable offers...     

[sol]

That is probably a key difference between you and I Sol, I would say that FI is an achievement to be gained.  All I need to do to 'retire' at this point would be to write up a letter, sign it, put it on my boss' desk, and stop showing up to work.  I would not consider that an achievement, it'll just happen.

I understand the distinction.  I think retirement is still an achievement.  It is me saying "I have accomplished all that I came here to do, and am leaving all of this behind to move on to the next chapter of my life."  It's not for everyone, but it was still a good feeling.  If you like working, I won't hold it against you.

do you tell the average person you meet that you are retired?  Neighbors, people older than you that are working, family, etc.?  I'm genuinely curious

Yes, I have been telling people that I am retired.  My family, my neighbors, my friends, yes to all of them.  They sometimes look confused at first, and if they ask about it I just tell them that I've been saving up my money since I started working, and our lifestyle is modest so our expenses our low, which means I now have enough money to start my retirement a little earlier than usual.  It's not a hard concept.  Very rarely, from people who know me well enough to pry, I get a little push-back.  But it's pretty easy to just casually mention that the stock market has more than tripled in the past decade, and that I picked up a couple of rental houses along the way as we moved but didn't sell the old ones.  When you phrase it like that, the more surprising part is that everyone else isn't retired too.

For me, I would imagine I'd either get asked if I'm a stay at home Dad or between jobs (aka unemployed).

I am both of those things.  I retired precisely so that I could be both of those things, on purpose.  It doesn't bother me at all if someone needs to mentally fit me into a little box that they understand better than "financially independent".  I have lots of titles these days, but "wage slave" isn't one of them anymore.

And retirement has not been a burden.  I feel no loss of status, the way some people on this forum have reported feeling when they give up jobs they perceive as prestigious.  I get to volunteer my talents in ways that have a much more immediate impact on my community, including accepting leadership roles that I would have previously declined due to time pressures.  My marriage is stronger.  My kids are happier.  My fitness is improving, and I sleep better at night.  My house and yard are in better shape, and I laugh more.  I get to spend more time with my aging parents, and I take my dogs to the dog park every single week.  Life is good.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

Thanks for the answers @sol, you are maybe more patient and sharing about personal info than I am.  I have family (both mine and on my wife's side) who will never early retire due to poor financial decisions, divorce, medical issues, etc. but I can understand better how it's an achievement and that folks would benefit from being educated more on ER.

@spartana I agree that you are retired now, but even you have said it took you a while to start using that term for it in the early days.  In the bit you bolded, my intention was that I think it's unwise for young people to tell IRL (non-FIRE) people you are retired, but if your intention is to educate others then it would not be dumb.

Anyway, I'm probably also overly sensitive from following blogs like EarlyRetirementExtreme where Jacob just up and decided to un-retire after a few years.  The definition for the word retirement, to me, is too limiting for what most Mustachians are actually doing when they leave the formal work force.  It always seems to get a conversation started, which is good if that is what you want.

[sol]

Thanks for the answers @sol, you are maybe more patient and sharing about personal info than I am.

Hah!  Don't tell my partner, she would laugh at you if you tried to say I was a patient person.  Retirement is helping, though.

I have family (both mine and on my wife's side) who will never early retire due to poor financial decisions

This has been the hardest part of early retirement for me, watching people close to me struggle financially while I sit at home and sip my mocha on a Tuesday morning while wearing fuzzy slippers and enjoying the view of the mountain through the fog.  My parents are financially stable, but all of my siblings are basically train wrecks when it comes to finances.  I don't have any retired friends my own age, but I sure do know some folks who are struggling to make ends meet.  When my neighbor complains about having his hours cut at work right after buying a new pickup on a seven year loan, I can't exactly tell him he should have made better decisions and I certainly can't tell him I gave tens of thousands of dollars to charity last year.

I also have friends who are financially secure in the sense that they have reliable regular employment, but they universally have reliable regular expenses to match and save little or nothing for their own retirements.  They are the only ones I feel I might be able to get through to, with my story of saving most of my income for a decade and then living off of the proceeds.

Anyway, I'm probably also overly sensitive from following blogs like EarlyRetirementExtreme where Jacob just up and decided to un-retire after a few years.  The definition for the word retirement, to me, is too limiting

I don't begrudge Jacob his unretirement at all.  Even if you want to view his retirement as a temporary break from the workforce, isn't that still a wonderful thing?  Having the time to self actualize instead of moving straight from childhood to slavery with nothing in between?  The beauty of financial independence is that you get to make your own choices about how you live your life, including choosing to earn more money if you decide that's important to you.  I could survive forever on my current expenses/assets, but if I decide I need to become a helicopter pilot to be happy then I will have no qualms about finding a way to pay for it that includes new income streams.  The secret of the financially independent isn't that they can buy whatever they want whenever they want, it's that they don't want to.  You can always find some ridiculously expensive thing you cannot afford, no matter how much money you have.  Even Buffet can't buy everything.

As for the IRP and their whinging about FIRE bloggers, I now have a different perspective having crossed the retirement divide myself.  I no longer care.  It truly doesn't matter.  I've won the game, and I get to call it whatever I damn well please.  Other people speculating on what I should call myself has no bearing on my life.  Haters gonna hate, mostly from the confines of their cubicles.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

...snip...

Now I understand what you meant with the "dumb" comment. Yes people don't generally get early retirement (of the non-continued-working kind) and make all sorts of wild speculations about how you achieved it, what you do everyday, and if you're rich or poor. So to protect myself from unimportant peoples view of me I only told family and friends I was FIRE. I just said I was working from home or on a very long sabbatical.

Thanks for the reply Spartana, I do think you are a huge positive force for FIRE, I never meant to drag you in, but I appreciate your comments!

[soccerluvof4]

Thanks for the answers @sol, you are maybe more patient and sharing about personal info than I am.  I have family (both mine and on my wife's side) who will never early retire due to poor financial decisions, divorce, medical issues, etc. but I can understand better how it's an achievement and that folks would benefit from being educated more on ER.

@spartana I agree that you are retired now, but even you have said it took you a while to start using that term for it in the early days.  In the bit you bolded, my intention was that I think it's unwise for young people to tell IRL (non-FIRE) people you are retired, but if your intention is to educate others then it would not be dumb.

Anyway, I'm probably also overly sensitive from following blogs like EarlyRetirementExtreme where Jacob just up and decided to un-retire after a few years.  The definition for the word retirement, to me, is too limiting for what most Mustachians are actually doing when they leave the formal work force.  It always seems to get a conversation started, which is good if that is what you want.

Now I understand what you meant with the "dumb" comment. Yes people don't generally get early retirement (of the non-continued-working kind) and make all sorts of wild speculations about how you achieved it, what you do everyday, and if you're rich or poor. So to protect myself from unimportant peoples view of me I only told family and friends I was FIRE. I just said I was working from home or on a very long sabbatical.

I can relate and know where your coming from Sol. And i have gotten in the habit of saying I Fire'd though not wealthy. Almost like im downplaying it. Thats something I am going to try and stop saying. Its not like I walk around with my chest out roaring I'm retired. But working out people always asking me dont i work. Relatives , friends and so on. Its easier as time goes on but like i said i felt like i had to justify it with that comment but going to work on stopping that. Hecks its been almost 4 years. What the f*ck to I care what anyone thinks anymore anyways and everyone knows and have formed there own judgement.

[Cassie]

Sol, I am curious if your wife wanted to retire with you or keep working? I think this is one challenge couples face.  My husband would have preferred to be working these past 6 years but has found just some short term consulting gigs. If we would have moved to Texas there were a lot of engineering jobs but we didn’t want to. 

[sol]

Sol, I am curious if your wife wanted to retire with you or keep working?

I have been begging her to retire with me, to the point where it is getting annoying, but she's not ready yet. 
It's her career and her decision, not mine.  Hopefully in the spring.

Her concerns about retirement are not the financial ones.  I'm trying to set a positive example.

[Cassie]

I definitely think it’s her decision. I think one reason I still work a little at 64 is because I came to my career late with being a SAHM and then going to college and graduate school.  So I haven’t worked as long as others. Plus I have no boss. I think we all need to find our own path.  I loved the years I stayed home with my kids.

[lexde]

I think MMM refers to these people as "SWAMI"s. Satisfied Working Advanced Mustachian Individuals. FI but not RE (although perfectly able to do so). :-)

[AlexMar]

I think MMM refers to these people as "SWAMI"s. Satisfied Working Advanced Mustachian Individuals. FI but not RE (although perfectly able to do so). :-)

I like that one.  As a new member here, I was wondering about this very thing.  I own a business, the ABILITY to FIRE is what is important to me.  If things go south with the business or I'm just tired of it, I RE.  It's more about peace of mind and security.  But the business provides a substantial income.  So I still save like crazy, but I also spend quite a bit, too, since I've already got my FIRE money stashed away.  I enjoy the lifestyle and perks of the income but with the peace of mind of FI.

[MonkeyJenga]

Thanks for the answers @sol, you are maybe more patient and sharing about personal info than I am.  I have family (both mine and on my wife's side) who will never early retire due to poor financial decisions, divorce, medical issues, etc. but I can understand better how it's an achievement and that folks would benefit from being educated more on ER.

@spartana I agree that you are retired now, but even you have said it took you a while to start using that term for it in the early days.  In the bit you bolded, my intention was that I think it's unwise for young people to tell IRL (non-FIRE) people you are retired, but if your intention is to educate others then it would not be dumb.

Not every FIRE person will get negative reactions.

I'm in my early 30's and FIRE'd last year. I told eeeeveryone what I was planning. Friends, family, co-workers, dates, the HR person at my exit interview. It was such a big part of my life, I would have had to lie to hide it.

Most people responded with "I couldn't do it but good for you." A few went with "teach me how to money." I'm fine with questions, and the more people talk about it, the more others will improve their own consumption.

I am not FIRE'd anymore, since I went back to a FT job using the same professional skills as my previous career. I planned for FIRE but only got a FIRE-battical. I may RE for real in a couple years.

[EscapeVelocity2020]

SWAMI never really got picked up by the greater FIRE community, only us forummmers use it, and even then not as much as plain old FI (without the RE).

I do like the term FI-battical though, I could see myself slipping that into my ER conversations, as in, 'I'm not ready to call myself completely retired, more like I'm on a FI-battical and seeing how it goes'.

[MrOnyx]

Glad to see SWAMI mentiond, was about to do so myself.

It's important not to get too caught up in pigeon holes, acronyms or whatever it is that might be holding you back.

"Am I considered FIRE if I haven't actually retired yet?" wrong question. Doesn't matter which acronym you fall under - you don't even have to fully fall under any acronym. When I was in school, I got accused of not conforming to one of apparently only two existing stereotypes - my friend laid into me a little for sitting on the fence between 'emo' and 'chav', that I should pick one and go with it. What if I just want to be MrOnyx? MrOnyx isn't a chav kid, or an emo kid. He's just himself.

I know this is all a little philosophical, and possibly besides the point, but really there is only one goal most of us share in common, and that IS something that is black and white: "Am I Financially Independent?" There is no in between - either you have enough passive income to support you sans job, or you don't.

So don't worry about whether being in a job stops you from being able to wear the FIRE badge of honour. You can still wear the FI badge of honour, and if at that stage you decide that you want to continue happily working the current job you're in, then you can also wear the SWAMI badge, if you choose. Alternatively, you can choose to stick two fingers up to these badges of honour and live your life however you like, defining it as you please.

[Aelias]

Very much still working, but I think when I'm retired (probably in my mid-forties) how I answer the "What do you do?" question will depend on 1) how well I know the person, and 2) how willing I am to get into a longer conversation about our lives.  I think the point that's been raised a few different ways is that if someone asks a 45 year old what they do and they respond, "I'm retired", that's sufficiently far out of the norm to attract attention and to generate some follow up questions.  What do you mean by that?  How can you afford not to work?  What exactly do you do all day?  Since FIRE is often motivated by some pretty profound hopes and fears, and is made possible by years of financial planning and lifestyle choices, it can lead pretty quickly to some intimate conversations. If I know the person well enough, I may be willing to have those conversations with them.  If it's just some random parent at my kid's school?  Nah. It could understandably come off as boasting or whatever and I'd prefer to avoid that, thanks very much.

In those situations, depending on what our FIRE plans actually end up being, potential answers might be along these lines:

"I left my corporate legal job to start my own practice." (don't have to tell them this is a VERY part-time practice wherein I pay the annual dues to keep my license and only take cases I care about, if any)
"I left my corporate legal job to focus on my writing / gardening / landlording / whatever."
"I used to work at a corporate legal job.  Taking some time off to explore my options."

These answers have the benefits of being basically true as well as sufficiently socially acceptable to not generate further conversation.  That's what I'm looking for.  But if I have a close enough relationship with someone that I don't mind opening up the hood on our finances and general life hopes and dreams and fears, yeah, I might say "retired."

[MrThatsDifferent]

I get this debate. I get one side saying, I get to define me and no one else can. And the other side saying, but, c’mon, call it what it is! Ughhh. All that matters for me is what I’m going to do for me. I’m pretty sure when I’ve achieved FI and head towards RE, that focus will be the proverbial “working for the (hu)man”. That’s what I wish to “retire” from.  I never want another boss that isn’t me, ever again. I’ll keep doing something and some things I’ll do as giving back and helping those in need and I won’t charge, and some I will charge, because I know my value. So I will then work for myself and I’ll keep doing that, in some capacity until I die. Death is the only true retirement.

[clarkfan1979]

Fi really isn't the thing that changes your behavior. It's the FU money. I've had FU money for about 5 years. It's pretty awesome. I'm probably another 5-6 years away from FI, but I will probably still work. I like my job.

[TomTX]

Mr. Money Mustache vs. the Internet Retirement Police

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/02/13/mr-money-mustache-vs-the-internet-retirement-police/

Is the definition of retired.

Yawn. If you leave your job and live a subsistence lifestyle off the land are you retired? Left your job and ceased to work!!

Make sure to strap yourself into your Laz-E Boy to ensure you have a Webster-approved retirement.

Yes, if you leave your job, and don't go work for money anymore, you've retired. No easy-chair required. You can go log the woods for fun and be retired. You can go log the woods for money and not be retired. I don't really care what you do when you retire. But if you're going to work and earning money, you're not retired anymore than I'm an astronaut because I've been in to Kennedy Space Center. Sure, I could redefine the word astronaut to mean "anyone that has been near, around, or at a place associated with space flight is an astronaut" and put that up on a blog... but people of reason would think I was being ridiculous and point out that what I wrote isn't, in fact, the definition of being an astronaut, and since I don't meet the definition of an astronaut, I am in fact not currently an astronaut (whether I have the capability to be one or not is a completely different subject).

So if you stop making money for 3 months and then start working again for 1 day and then go back to no income, do you reset the clock? Just trying to get an idea of how this very formal and oh so important labeling system works.

Let me ask you a question... by your "loose" use of the term retired, anyone who once had a job and no longer has it... has retired apparently. So, why do you think people would get upset if a 2 year military veteran, honorably discharged, called themselves a retired Marine even though they're not receiving retirement pay, not in the military system as retired, etc? Is it perhaps because people inherently know what a retired military person is, and simply no longer being paid to be in the military doesn't mean you're retired from it, and calling yourself something that pretty much everyone understands to mean something different that what you are is pretty ridiculous, and especially shitty if it's done like that? Just like people inherently know that "retired" as a general term is means you've quite working for money and working 6 days a week to earn money doesn't qualify??

Tell me Mr. Astronaut... at what point do you think it's unacceptable to just make up new definitions for words.

Signed,
The President of the USA





(I'll be sure to write a post on a blog later explaining how my title is perfectly valid and I'm the President of the USA and everyone should accept that, even if the whole world thinks the President of the USA means something different than how I'm using it).

I note that in the earlier linked Money Mix article, 95% of respondents agreed that one could have some income from work and still be considered retired.

https://themoneymix.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Work-in-Retirement.jpg

The IRP are apparently a motivated, vocal and tiny minority. Like the President.