Do we think any of the FI bloggers are just making it all up?

[Chris Pascale]

While we're bagging on financial bloggers, I'll add my pet peeve.

Why is it that basically nobody wants to talk transparently about their finances from age 18 to about age 26?  Most who are very proud of their financial situation seem to have an origin story like: "This story begins at age 29 when we were happily married, with two super-expensive graduate degrees, 400k in home equity, two paid off cars, 250k in tax advantaged accounts, and zero debt of any sort."

Wait... if that's where you're at at 29, you basically already have the world by the tail.  I'm not even interested in what comes next.  What I want to know is how you got there.  And if the unstated story as a whole lot of intergenerational wealth transfer, then all this really is is a story about how rich families tend to stay rich, which is about the oldest story in capitalism and not particularly insightful or interesting.

I'll do it! And not just because I'm desperate to be seen as a phonyFIRE writer. :-)

[BTW, I make nothing from writing for the sites I do - it's just something I enjoy as I work my way to FIRE, which will be at age 48, in 10 years, unless I land a very lucrative speaking/publishing deal (making it shorter), or one of these people I live with goes to medical school (making it longer)]

18: Went to college on athletic/academic scholarships totaling to $7,000, making tuition, room and board about $13k. Parents were paying. When the swimming/diving season ended, I worked Friday-Sunday nights at a gas station mini mart for $6.00/hour, which was mine to keep in addition to a $160/month allowance my father gave me.

19: Dropped out and worked a bunch of dead-end jobs (retail of multiple sorts, market research, waiting tables, bank teller, mortgage broker, fast food), often 2 at a time, while also being in AmWay.

21: Joined the military.

22: Married.

26: Had about $0, no TSP, but a VA Disability pension, the GI Bill, a small house bought at the height of the housing market, a Roth IRA getting $25/month, and enrollment into community college.

[Nords]

Well.  This is quite a thread.

Do we think any of the FI bloggers are just making it all up?

Sure, here’s a couple of bloggers who have been making it up.

Anton Ivanov:
https://www.budgetsaresexy.com/the-millionaire-liar-next-door/
Not only did he do it in 2014, but in 2018 he’d started it up again with a different site.  What really annoys me about Mr. Ivanov is that he’s reputedly a U.S. submarine vet.  He’s been in an environment whose training should have convinced him that ethics and truth are easier (let alone better) than lying.

Rob Bennett:
http://www.passionsaving.com/rob-bennett.html
Who could be diagnosed as struggling since the late 1990s.  Note that he’s taken most of his site’s “endorsements” out of context from the people he quotes, from all the way back to Scott Burns and all the way up to Wade Pfau.

I’ve attended FinCons for eight straight years, and the last one had over 2500 attendees.  I’m sure that some of them are delusional, quibbling, or even flat-out lying about their finances-- but perhaps the truly remarkable point is how few of them are doing so. 

Another interesting aspect of FinCon is the number of CPA attendees who do the bookkeeping & tax returns of motivational entrepreneurs (including bloggers and startup coaches).  The anecdotal misrepresentation among those entrepreneurs is widespread because apparently their get-rich-quick advice isn't working for them either.

I was just reading another forum post about how Financial Samurai (who I've never really read) has gotten very click-baity and focused on how "impossible" FI is. Made me wonder -- is it possible any of these financial bloggers who claim to be FI are just making it up for the clicks?

Sam gives the impression that FI stresses him even more about wealth preservation and raising a family.  Perhaps money really does make us even more of what we already are.  And yes, his site has a different focus today than years ago.

I don’t know whether he’s ever attended FinCon.

OTOH -- There's not all that much factual content to any of these blogs.

Before I started The-Military-Guide in 2010, I published years of spending numbers on Early-Retirement.org.  It was an interesting exercise in public accountability, but it also highlighted that old saying:  “Comparison is the thief of joy.” 

Too many people in their 20s and 30s end up comparing their numbers to your 40s and 50s.  Or they don’t adjust for inflation, or they have more kids than you.  A few will even throw the privilege card-- I’m referring to the one about commissioned officers, not ancestry or family wealth.

On a website with thousands of readers, I’ve found it more helpful to list percentages or to index my numbers to a starting value of 100.  In small groups (like a Camp Mustache or CampFI) I’ll dig into the details and share actual numbers with people who already understand the comparison issue.  Some of those people are also the type of person who's still skeptical that their FI number will continue to compound, and they usually have a wicked case of Just One More Year Syndrome.  They're working from a scarcity mentality and I'm trying to convince them about abundance.

While we're bagging on financial bloggers, I'll add my pet peeve.

Why is it that basically nobody wants to talk transparently about their finances from age 18 to about age 26?  Most who are very proud of their financial situation seem to have an origin story like: "This story begins at age 29 when we were happily married, with two super-expensive graduate degrees, 400k in home equity, two paid off cars, 250k in tax advantaged accounts, and zero debt of any sort."

Wait... if that's where you're at at 29, you basically already have the world by the tail.  I'm not even interested in what comes next.  What I want to know is how you got there.  And if the unstated story as a whole lot of intergenerational wealth transfer, then all this really is is a story about how rich families tend to stay rich, which is about the oldest story in capitalism and not particularly insightful or interesting.

I have to wonder how many people even have records dating back that far. I'm one I the more nitpicky, long term trackers around, with eight years of to the penny records, and even I didn't start until I was 25.

Heh.  You've read J.D. Roth and Jim Wang, right?  They're the types of personalities who keep records.  Many other bloggers have been tracking since high school or college, especially the net-worth ones in the Rockstar Finance database:
https://directory.rockstarfinance.com/personal-finance-blogs/

I started age 18 with $1500 in my checking account and a “free” college scholarship.  By sophomore year I had a credit card and a net worth of -$1000 but fortunately still had the scholarship.  By the end of junior year I was consistently in the black (thanks to my new girlfriend, who later married me) and by senior year I was up to a net worth of $3000.  Most of that came from a forced savings program run by the college to ensure we had enough after graduation to pay for deposits on apartment rentals and utilities.

After college I was uber-frugal (mostly due to spending all my time at the Navy’s nuclear power training and getting qualified) and by age 25 that high savings rate got me back to a net worth of $22K.  Because it was the the 1980s and real estate always went up, I’d also bought a condo with a zero-down VA loan. 
Spoiler:  it didn’t go up for me.
But when I was at sea for 90-day submarine patrols, I condo-hacked by having a realtor friend rent it out to tenants as a fully-furnished crash pad.

I first started tracking my spending after college (in 1982).  The next six years of that was pencil & paper.  Our first PC in 1988 came with some forgettable personal-finance shareware, and we saved the printouts.  In 1992 we upgraded to Quicken, and today we have over 150,000 transactions.  Since 2015, however, we no longer budget and we’ve tracked our transactions in Personal Capital. 

The rest of our 20s and 30s in the 1980s-90s is here:
https://the-military-guide.com/four-decades-of-investing-lessons-learned/
Another spoiler:  high savings rate.

I'm not really sure if there are any current FIRE bloggers that are totally upfront about ALL their spending and ALL their income sources.

Ouch!  This is why I give all of my writing revenue to military-friendly charities.

If you feel that I’m part of that “not totally upfront group” then please post feedback here or send me a message.

[Bloop Bloop]

A couple of points in response to the interesting discussion:

1. "Aggregate" or "average" rate of tax doesn't paint the whole picture about whether a country is high- or low-taxing. Australia is a middling taxing country by average rate of tax but because our tax and transfer system is so heavily efficient and our taxes are so progressive, the above-average earners here pay a shitload of tax. In the US a newly landed college grad could buy a Porsche 911 with about 1-1.5 years' grad salary (after tax). Here it would be about 4 years' salary (after tax). Combination of higher taxes, luxury car tax, lower professional salary spread and higher cost of living.

2. There are different types of "advantages". Someone who is born into money or has political or professional connections handed down should disclose those advantages, since they are external. Someone who is just very intelligent or personable does not need to disclose those advantages, in my view, firstly because they will be apparent through the writing, and secondly because they are not contingent advantages. Once you have them you have them and you can do what you like with them.

[AO1FireTo]

In almost every single metric surrounding taxes, Canadian pay more than Americans do.

What's the property tax rate in Ontario? How about provincial tax rate?

I think in general the property tax rates in Canada, are lower than the US, but I assume that varies greatly from city to city and state to state.   The amount you’ll pay in property tax can be calculated by multiplying your most recent home value assessment by the residential rate set by your local municipality.  Here are the highest and lowest property tax rates in Ontario:


Cities With the Lowest Property Tax Rates in Ontario
Toronto: 0.614770%
Markham: 0.659822%
Milton: 0.685776%
Richmond Hill: 0.688357%
Vaughan: 0.696147%

Cities With the Highest Property Tax Rates in Ontario
Windsor: 1.789394%
Thunder Bay: 1.598484%
Sault Ste. Marie: 1.529349%
North Bay: 1.501246%
Sudbury: 1.461888%

Toronto has a surprising low tax rate, although a tear down single family home will run you $1 million so you'd pay $6,147.70/year in tax.

[Cpa Cat]

Comparing the US tax system to Canada’s is not an apples to apples comparison. A discussion of average income tax does not reflect reality for every individual. Some people from some states would see a benefit from moving to some provinces in Canada, ignoring the US global taxation regime.

When comparing, where do I add my US medical and insurance costs that I didn’t have in Canada because those costs were buried in the tax system?

Where do I add the fact that groceries where I live in the US are not exempt from sales tax, but they were in Ontario?

How do I factor in that my public university in Canada cost much less than my state university in the US because of taxes?

Unless we could normalize the tax rates for all of the out of pocket costs that are paid by average people, but buried in one tax system or the other, then the comparison is useless. Apples to oranges.

After that, I would have to have whole subsection discussions about the differences in Corporate taxation, payroll taxes, local taxes, property tax, sales tax, self employment tax, capital gain rates, investment tax, estate tax, gift tax... Are you starting to see why average income tax rates for individuals tell us nothing?

[Nords]

Of course I didn't mean you @Nords ;-).
In any case I felt that the OP was talking about direct lies about being actually  FIREd, how they attained FIRE in the first place, how they live on their incomes, where their incomes come from, and less about how much they spend.

No worries, I didn't take it personally.  I wanted to make sure (from you and anyone else) that I hadn't missed something.

Blogger credibility helps other military families gain the confidence they need to reach FI. 

[cangelosibrown]

Rob Bennett:
http://www.passionsaving.com/rob-bennett.html
Who could be diagnosed as struggling since the late 1990s.  Note that he’s taken most of his site’s “endorsements” out of context from the people he quotes, from all the way back to Scott Burns and all the way up to Wade Pfau

Hocus!!! I had completely forgotten about this guy. I remember reading his nonsense when I was still in college and trying to learn about investing. I would love to hear an update on how he's doing, he seems to have totally disappeared from the internet. Which hopefully has benefited him, it has certainly benefited the internet. (here's a great intro to him for the uninitiated: https://retireearlyhomepage.com/rob_fraud.html)

[Nords]

Rob Bennett:
http://www.passionsaving.com/rob-bennett.html
Who could be diagnosed as struggling since the late 1990s.  Note that he’s taken most of his site’s “endorsements” out of context from the people he quotes, from all the way back to Scott Burns and all the way up to Wade Pfau

Hocus!!! I had completely forgotten about this guy. I remember reading his nonsense when I was still in college and trying to learn about investing. I would love to hear an update on how he's doing, he seems to have totally disappeared from the internet. Which hopefully has benefited him, it has certainly benefited the internet. (here's a great intro to him for the uninitiated: https://retireearlyhomepage.com/rob_fraud.html)

The "good" news from that era was his causing so much chaos and disruption on the Morningstar Vanguard Diehards forum back in 2006 that the core posters eventually decamped to start the Bogleheads forum.

Rob also attended a couple years of FinCon, with predictable results, but I haven't seen him there since 2013 or 2014.  These days he seems to just write his usual groove at his site and Value Walk:
https://arichlife.passionsaving.com/2019/12/27/if-shiller-now-no-longer-believes-in-market-timing-and-bogle-before-his-death-had-come-a-long-way-to-endorsing-it-we-all-need-to-be-reconsidering-the-question-until-our-thinking-is-clearer/

I doubt that we'll ever see a factual update on him.  I don't think he can get through a media interview or a fact-checking editor.

[life_travel]

Never heard of him but poked around for 10 mins now... Wow..

Read this gem at https://arichlife.passionsaving.com/

Someone asked him:

Rob,

You have been pushing this story for a long time. Shiller even warned that you shouldn’t use CAPE to time the market. It is bad enough that you have been misleading people with your crash predictions that have failed time after time.

Look at how this has impacted you. In 2002, you posted your retirement plan in which you had a nest egg of $400k invested (as you claim) in i bonds, TIPS and CDs and your spending budget was $30k/ yr. You have reported a real return of 3.5 percent (which is probably even embellished based on other comments you made. You made several other statements that you would be transitioning into stocks along the way. In 2005, you provided an update that your spending was up to $38k, which is a large percentage increase over the 2002 budget. You told people that you were not concerned because the market returned 7% real and that with your VII strategy, you would get a return in excess of the 7%. It has now been 17 years since the launch of your 2002 plan. Your VII strategy has kept you out of the market and you have missed out on the large gains. You have acknowledged that you now have to return to the job market. Clearly, your plan with VII failed. Even if there was some huge drop today, your nest egg has deteriorated, so there is not much left to put back into the market. It is just simple math, but as you say, you are not a math guy.

So he replies with:

I would be a multi-millionaire today if it were not for the abusive posting of you Goons. I mean, please give me a break. There is huge interest in this stuff. I have had hundreds of people tell me that I am the first person who has written about stock investing in a way that makes complete sense. Say that that is 10 percent of the population. That’s millions of people. I have a funny feeling that I will have no problem bringing in a mountain of money after prices have crashed and I am able to reach all of the people who want to learn more about how stock investing works in the real world. My plan hasn’t failed at all. I saved like a madman in earlier days because I wanted to be able to do work like this and not need to worry about money coming in immediately and that plan has worked like a dream. I haven’t cashed in yet. But if you go by the 200 rave endorsements on the home page of my web site, I think it would be fair to say that things are looking very good.

He is delusional :)

[Chris Pascale]

Never heard of him but poked around for 10 mins now... Wow..

Read this gem at https://arichlife.passionsaving.com/

Someone asked him:

Rob,

You have been pushing this story for a long time........................

So he replies with:

I would be a multi-millionaire today if it were not for the abusive posting of you Goons.......................

He is delusional :)

I like that he blames online commenters for his lack of [writing about the] stock market wealth. Definitely a fool-proof plan.

[Travis]

Never heard of him but poked around for 10 mins now... Wow..

Read this gem at https://arichlife.passionsaving.com/

Someone asked him:

Rob,

You have been pushing this story for a long time........................

So he replies with:

I would be a multi-millionaire today if it were not for the abusive posting of you Goons.......................

He is delusional :)

I like that he blames online commenters for his lack of [writing about the] stock market wealth. Definitely a fool-proof plan.

Poster child for those who accuse FIRE bloggers of being able to afford FIRE by writing about it.

[arebelspy]

Oh yeah.

I could name a number of high profile ones I think embellish quite a bit. Several who were in the FIRE documentary, many of whom I've met.

Nords is the real deal. Pete is always honest, even if you say his business spending should be personal, so he's spending a bit more... okay. He still discloses the spending.

And there's plenty who are totally honest.

Look at Jeremy at GCC. He talks about how now he's spending six figures, cause he can afford it due to massive portfolio growth and blog income. He doesn't pretend to still be super frugal.

On the flip side, Justin at RoG still spends super low, but discloses his net worth, spending, and income (including large blog income). Opposite in spending trends versus Jeremy, even though they have similar post-FIRE portfolio gains and blog income. But both very clear about it.

But yeah, there's some that are... shady. For sure.

(IMO usually more for pride/"cred" than income, but that plays into some too.)

[Nords]

But yeah, there's some that are... shady. For sure.

(IMO usually more for pride/"cred" than income, but that plays into some too.)

Ego... again.  Money makes people more of who they already are.

[Longwaytogo]

Pete is always honest, even if you say his business spending should be personal, so he's spending a bit more... okay. He still discloses the spending.

He does disclose the business spending on things like the Nissan leaf, his shed, etc.  My question was sort of more if some of his business stuff sort of "scratches an itch" that his personal spending would have to without the blog.

Take travel for example- If he didn't go to Seattle for camp Mustache or Ecuador, Or oregon/Cali/etc. would he then feel the urge to travel more on his own dime? Similarly when he buys an E-bike for "research" would he want to buy it himself just out of curiosity without the MMM moniker.

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. Just a passing thought I've had when he used to post his yearly budgets.

In some ways I guess I'd almost feel he could do what Jeremy has done and said "Well I could live on $30K but now I choose to live on $60K" instead of "I Pete spent $30K and Mr. Money mustache LLC spends another $30K".

I may also have some personal bias from my own work/life/business because my Dad has been doing all that "business" type spending his whole life on tractors, dump trucks, tools, toys (that he uses more for his home/hobbies then real income producing work IMO) that I deem unnecessary at the expense of us just making more actual money!!

And there's plenty who are totally honest.

Look at Jeremy at GCC. He talks about how now he's spending six figures, cause he can afford it due to massive portfolio growth and blog income. He doesn't pretend to still be super frugal.

On the flip side, Justin at RoG still spends super low, but discloses his net worth, spending, and income (including large blog income). Opposite in spending trends versus Jeremy, even though they have similar post-FIRE portfolio gains and blog income. But both very clear about it.

I really like both of them and agree they seem really honest. I've enjoyed Jeremys more optimistic outlook and some of his recent posts compared to the doom and gloom worst case scenario stuff you sometimes get with investing/frugality/Fire types.

[arebelspy]

My point was, then count all Pete's spending together. He discloses it. Count it however you want. Just cause he categorizes differently, hes not lying about things.

Ego is the word I was looking for, thanks Nords.

[Nickel]

Whenever someone has a financial-blog-as-a-business, I take their reports of income and spending with a grain of salt, but blogs like Go Curry Cracker and Root of Good and others seem to be reasonably transparent and trustworthy. 

I found J.D. Roth's recent income/spending report on Get Rich Slowly interesting https://www.getrichslowly.org/family-meeting/ interesting.  He makes about $5K/month from his blog (which he owns or co-owns), has $500K in retirement accounts, a $500K house, and $271K in taxable investment accounts.  That seems transparent and I have no reason to doubt it.  He also admits to making some questionable purchases, like a Harley and a money-pit house with a walking score of 0.  His blog entries come across as genuine in part because he second-guesses himself in a way that makes him more relate-able.

Some lesser known blogs, such as http://freedomwithbruno.com/, seem trustworthy because they ring true and do not exist to generate income.

[slappy]

My point was, then count all Pete's spending together. He discloses it. Count it however you want. Just cause he categorizes differently, hes not lying about things.

Ego is the word I was looking for, thanks Nords.

I see your point, but I think there is an element of "lying" in that he doesn't say, my lifestyle costs X. He separates out the "business expenses", even though they are part of his lifestyle. So when he is on a podcast or guest post or whatever, and he says "I live a luxurious life on $25k a year", it's not entirely accurate. I don't think it's "lying", because lying would be an intent to deceive. I don't consider it 100% truthful, either. I think this topic has been covered extensively in past threads when he posted his expenses.

[cangelosibrown]

My point was, then count all Pete's spending together. He discloses it. Count it however you want. Just cause he categorizes differently, hes not lying about things.

Ego is the word I was looking for, thanks Nords.

I see your point, but I think there is an element of "lying" in that he doesn't say, my lifestyle costs X. He separates out the "business expenses", even though they are part of his lifestyle. So when he is on a podcast or guest post or whatever, and he says "I live a luxurious life on $25k a year", it's not entirely accurate. I don't think it's "lying", because lying would be an intent to deceive. I don't consider it 100% truthful, either. I think this topic has been covered extensively in past threads when he posted his expenses.

I think MMM has always been pretty upfront about the most important thing to him being "the message" of FI that he's trying to spread. You can see this in things like how he deletes comments to blog posts if they are critical or even just more nuanced than his post.

Sent from my moto x4 using Tapatalk

[Cassie]

Most of the ones I have read including people on this forum I believe. I enjoy reading about people’s journeys. 

[Metalcat]

There's a difference between exaggeration/questionable categorization of expenses vs "making it all up"

I think it would take a truly exceptional creative thinker to be able to fabricate an entire FI personality while living a consumerist lifestyle.

[Longwaytogo]

My point was, then count all Pete's spending together. He discloses it. Count it however you want. Just cause he categorizes differently, hes not lying about things.

Yeah that's the way I look at it now. Just saying I could see it turning some people off as maybe "embellishing" a bit not really lying. One of my friends specifically that I told about the blog years ago one of the first post he stumbled on was one of his yearly reports and that was one of his criticisms. But I've basically written that type of response off as cynicism or not wanting to believe it can be done. Or of course he could have read more articles or dug deeper instead of picking apart the few he skimmed.

[mathlete]

I would suspect that everyone participates in some degree of embellishment. Especially if there's a financial incentive to do so. I think most bloggers do this by making their story out to be one of a hardened renegade when it's really just a rich person living a middle class lifestyle.

I wouldn't consider that "making it all up" though. I would be very surprised to hear of a prominent blogger who made up their story, soup to nuts, in order to live off of affiliated marketing revenue or something. That'd be one for the ages.

[roomtempmayo]

I may also have some personal bias from my own work/life/business because my Dad has been doing all that "business" type spending his whole life on tractors, dump trucks, tools, toys (that he uses more for his home/hobbies then real income producing work IMO) that I deem unnecessary at the expense of us just making more actual money!!

Sure, but my experience has been that that's the norm rather than the exception for small businesses.  Even with a legit small business, there's an amazing amount of stuff that can be categorized as a business expense for tax purposes, but that also gets a whole lot of personal use.  Buying and maintaining an ATV used 15 hours a year to plow the "business" driveway (aka house) to the "office building" (aka kitchen table) is obviously a business expense, right?

Which is not to mention the plethora of shell businesses maintained for the primary purpose of making personal income tax bills go away.

[tooqk4u22]

I don't really see any reason why a successful bloggers spending, like MMMs, should increase a lot because of having a successful blog. If you didn't have expensive habits to start with and you are wired in such a way that spending more money on stuff, entertainment, activities or whatever does not give you and increased happiness, why should your spending go up (a lot) just because your brokerage statement displays a Very High Number when you look at it?
.
.
.
And if you don't really derive any joy from spending money and already have all the stuff you need - what purpose should increased spending serve? If you didn't have expensive habits to start with there is not really any reason to develop any just because you have a lot more money.

I don't necessarily agree with this.  My belief is that a large amount of FIRE people are making tradeoffs (such is everything in life) and many times that tradeoff is to jettison a job that is dissatisfying by accumulating sufficient resources to live in a way that is very satisfying and "Enough" at the time.   But that in itself doesn't mean that there isn't some desire to be able to spend on other things if resources would permit, but those extras aren't valuable enough to justify selling your soul any longer.   I know I fit into that category, and I suspect others do as well. 

MMM has increased his lifestyle - some intentionally, some disguised as business/investments/projects, some unintentionally (like divorce, which I am sure was a big cost and if not for his success probably would have created a hardship for both to be FIRE) all of which falls under life.   Ten years is a long time, to expect a persons wants and needs to not change is absurd, especially in the face of more income or resources, and I don't mean in the sense of becoming a spendthrift.

[tooqk4u22]

My point was, then count all Pete's spending together. He discloses it. Count it however you want. Just cause he categorizes differently, hes not lying about things.

Ego is the word I was looking for, thanks Nords.

I see your point, but I think there is an element of "lying" in that he doesn't say, my lifestyle costs X. He separates out the "business expenses", even though they are part of his lifestyle. So when he is on a podcast or guest post or whatever, and he says "I live a luxurious life on $25k a year", it's not entirely accurate. I don't think it's "lying", because lying would be an intent to deceive. I don't consider it 100% truthful, either. I think this topic has been covered extensively in past threads when he posted his expenses.

I know this has always been a gripe, and I have said it too, but I can envision scenarios such that I say ok, we are living on 4% but desire for something that requires money beyond the 4% that I didn't contemplate when I FIRE'd…...maybe extra money for college, maybe an addition, maybe some ridiculous expensive trip to Africa for a large family.....IDK but whatever, I could see me saying ok I will go and work for some time to fund that one or more expense. 

And can you imagine if you had started a hobby that turned into a big income that you are enjoying, all the easier to pay for those grander desires.

[Nords]

But that in itself doesn't mean that there isn't some desire to be able to spend on other things if resources would permit, but those extras aren't valuable enough to justify selling your soul any longer.   I know I fit into that category, and I suspect others do as well. 

I know this has always been a gripe, and I have said it too, but I can envision scenarios such that I say ok, we are living on 4% but desire for something that requires money beyond the 4% that I didn't contemplate when I FIRE'd…...maybe extra money for college, maybe an addition, maybe some ridiculous expensive trip to Africa for a large family.....IDK but whatever, I could see me saying ok I will go and work for some time to fund that one or more expense. 

And can you imagine if you had started a hobby that turned into a big income that you are enjoying, all the easier to pay for those grander desires.

As you say, if that desire was strong enough to become valuable then they'd be willing to start the side hustle, or find part-time remote work, or even (*gasp*) go back to a typical corporate career (perhaps in a different industry).  Plenty of jobs pay less than a living wage, and they're perfect for people who only want an occasional income boost instead of a longer-term commitment.

Meanwhile the frugal habits that get people to FI usually keep going after FI.  We still enjoy a number of DIY home-improvement projects and our usual inventory of frugal hacks because they're still challenging & fulfilling, no matter what our net worth may be.  We still do DIY yardwork, housecleaning, food prep, and other chores because it's less hassle to do it on our own time rather than coordinate the yard service, housecleaners, food delivery, or dining out.  It's less drama, too.

There's still assets left over for expanding our home (even more), or glamping in Africa, or treating extended family to a blowout three-week cruise in the Mediterranean or Asia or... but we feel as if we've achieved balance in our life.  Our future spending would be more for adding "aging in place" features to our home or spending more time on extended slow travel in smaller towns around the world with high walkability scores.

That's where the whole concept of the "retirement spending smile" came from, and it's a major cause of our assets growing far faster than inflation and our spending.

[iris lily]

Most of the ones I have read including people on this forum I believe. I enjoy reading about people’s journeys.

Nawwww, Spartana  IRL spends her days hunched over a computer in a cube, punching a time clock every day for The Man, commuting 1 hour and 45 minutes each way to her job. She has a husband and three kids and a mortgage of $795,000 in So Cal.

All of this beach bum/volleyball princess/hiking/biking life of decades of freedom is just the illusion she’s been successful in selling us. We took it all in, the fantasy.


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Hahaha just kidding!

[G-String]

Americans here keep telling me that Canadians don't actually pay that much more tax than Americans do.

Those Americans should do some research. Both countries are progressive income tax systems, so there are different ways to measure what a resident pays, not to mention sales taxes and other levies.

But any way you measure it, Canadians pay more than Americans. According to wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates

If you measure by lowest marginal income tax rate, Canada ranks 16th highest in the world at 19%. The US ranks 51st highest with a 10% income tax for the lowest earners.

At the highest marginal tax rate, Canada ranks 7th highest in the world, with the top earners getting 54% of their income clawed back. I can attest to this. At the end of my career, I was at an income bracket that for every additional dollar I earned, I gave the government 51 cents in income tax. They made more than I did for every additional dollar I earned. How's that for disincentivizing labour?

In comparison, the highest earners in the US get taxed 43%, for a ranking of 32nd highest in the world.

If you look at sales tax, Canadians pay an average of 14%, ranking around 80th highest in the world. The national average in the US is around 6%, which puts them in the rankings over 100th in the world.

In almost every single metric surrounding taxes, Canadian pay more than Americans do.

Good post.  I'm a Canadian, and when I travel to the US I'm shocked at how low sales tax is. 

[G-String]

In almost every single metric surrounding taxes, Canadian pay more than Americans do.

What's the property tax rate in Ontario? How about provincial tax rate?

I think in general the property tax rates in Canada, are lower than the US, but I assume that varies greatly from city to city and state to state.   The amount you’ll pay in property tax can be calculated by multiplying your most recent home value assessment by the residential rate set by your local municipality.  Here are the highest and lowest property tax rates in Ontario:


Cities With the Lowest Property Tax Rates in Ontario
Toronto: 0.614770%
Markham: 0.659822%
Milton: 0.685776%
Richmond Hill: 0.688357%
Vaughan: 0.696147%

Cities With the Highest Property Tax Rates in Ontario
Windsor: 1.789394%
Thunder Bay: 1.598484%
Sault Ste. Marie: 1.529349%
North Bay: 1.501246%
Sudbury: 1.461888%

Toronto has a surprising low tax rate, although a tear down single family home will run you $1 million so you'd pay $6,147.70/year in tax.

Toronto is so low because of its high density. 

[Hargrove]

If you can write Walden while your mom brings you sandwiches every week, hey, good for you.

All I want to know of a philosophy is whether my life is better for it.

Whether the bloggers relaxed later in life - it's a tricky question, isn't it? It's brutally intimate. "How do you measure up to your own ideals? Did you relax? Stop?" And does answering change the value proposition for readers?

[Metalcat]

My point was, then count all Pete's spending together. He discloses it. Count it however you want. Just cause he categorizes differently, hes not lying about things.

Ego is the word I was looking for, thanks Nords.

I see your point, but I think there is an element of "lying" in that he doesn't say, my lifestyle costs X. He separates out the "business expenses", even though they are part of his lifestyle. So when he is on a podcast or guest post or whatever, and he says "I live a luxurious life on $25k a year", it's not entirely accurate. I don't think it's "lying", because lying would be an intent to deceive. I don't consider it 100% truthful, either. I think this topic has been covered extensively in past threads when he posted his expenses.

I try to look at this as original MMM rather than current MMM. He retired (however you want to define that) on $24k income and spending long before he started his blog, and even longer before be started earning the big blog bucks. So he has been able to show that it is doable and that while he now spends more, I think he would still be happy and satisfied even if was living the original MMM life. I say this because in many ways I am living the original MMM life and years later find it great and have not upped my spending or income.

Agreed.

I look at it separately too.
I have zero interest in his pre-FIRE life, it's his post-FIRE that I'm most inspired by.

Even if he is spending more, it fits with my perspective that money only represents and exchange of time&energy. Back when he was working a day job, his money generating time&energy may have been more precious, because he was working in a way that he obviously didn't want to.

Now he generates tons of money expending time&energy in ways that make him happy, and some aspects of those adventures require more spending, but they generate the funds for themselves, so the time/money/energy exchange is negligible.

Money means something different to him now.

I totally understand why he categorizes certain things as business expenses, and I don't think it's a case of him softening over time and trying to obfuscate it for the sake of his blog. These expenses are generated by and supported by him becoming a "guru".

I had a certain paid-hobby side hustle that generated certain luxury expenses that I was happy to pay for because the side hustle sustained them, but they're expenses that I would never be willing to exchange day-job hours for.

Now that I'm not doing that particular side hustle, I'm back to being completely unwilling to spend on those luxuries. Did I enjoy them at the time? Of course, but because I mentally compartmentalized them as part of the project, I never had hedonic adaptation. In fact, I had the opposite, because I got used to them being essentially "free", and they now feel totally unworthy of exchange for hard day-job hours.

By generating a lot of income from post FIRE projects of his choosing, Pete completely rearranged the time/energy/money balance for himself.

I'm sure if these expenses required him to work more day-job hours he would be like "fuck that."

[Villanelle]

If you can write Walden while your mom brings you sandwiches every week, hey, good for you.

All I want to know of a philosophy is whether my life is better for it.

Whether the bloggers relaxed later in life - it's a tricky question, isn't it? It's brutally intimate. "How do you measure up to your own ideals? Did you relax? Stop?" And does answering change the value proposition for readers?

I think when the ideal is that X is not only enough, but that X+Y doesn't make one any happier and  Y is utterly unnecessary, but then one starts adding some Y to their X, it does become relevant.  Because it brings into question whether X is actually sustainable long term, and whether perhaps there is some additional value in Y.  If I plan a life around only X, am I going to feel unsatisfied after a while and have to go back to work to find Y?  No one can give a clear, broad answer to that, but when the one assuring everyone that X is plenty starts to indulge in Y, it makes perfect sense that it would have people questioning his words.

I've never been hardcore MMM.  For me, by far the biggest take away was the shockingly simple math.  I didn't know about 4%.  I had NO IDEA how much I needed to retire and that was scary and overwhelming.  MMM fixed that for me and it changed the entire picture because I could set a clear goal and feel pretty confident that it would work out.  So whether MMM buys a yacht and a Hummer tomorrow or not doesn't make much difference to me, but for those who really glommed on to the more minimalist messages, I can see how it might be discouraging or cause them to question.  He says we don't need fancy shit, but it seems like he's kind of enjoying the fancy shit.  Do I need to add in a fancy shit line to my FIRE budget, which increases it and the amount I need to quit by 10%?

I think it would be great it MMM posted something introspective about these changes, and whether they add to his QOL.  Would he continue traveling if he couldn't write it off?  And if he didn't would he miss it?  He has gobs of money now, but if he knew then what he knew now, would have have worked an extra year in order to afford these additions (in a universe where he didn't have the gobs of blog money)?   Things like that would be interesting reading (in a blog that I've mostly stopped reading because, like most topic-specific blogs, they start being redundant) and I think would help people better examine their lives and needs, which is something that his earlier posts did quite well. 

[Nords]

If you can write Walden while your mom brings you sandwiches every week, hey, good for you.

All I want to know of a philosophy is whether my life is better for it.

Whether the bloggers relaxed later in life - it's a tricky question, isn't it? It's brutally intimate. "How do you measure up to your own ideals? Did you relax? Stop?" And does answering change the value proposition for readers?

I think when the ideal is that X is not only enough, but that X+Y doesn't make one any happier and  Y is utterly unnecessary, but then one starts adding some Y to their X, it does become relevant.  Because it brings into question whether X is actually sustainable long term, and whether perhaps there is some additional value in Y.  If I plan a life around only X, am I going to feel unsatisfied after a while and have to go back to work to find Y?  No one can give a clear, broad answer to that, but when the one assuring everyone that X is plenty starts to indulge in Y, it makes perfect sense that it would have people questioning his words.

I've never been hardcore MMM.  For me, by far the biggest take away was the shockingly simple math.  I didn't know about 4%.  I had NO IDEA how much I needed to retire and that was scary and overwhelming.  MMM fixed that for me and it changed the entire picture because I could set a clear goal and feel pretty confident that it would work out.  So whether MMM buys a yacht and a Hummer tomorrow or not doesn't make much difference to me, but for those who really glommed on to the more minimalist messages, I can see how it might be discouraging or cause them to question.  He says we don't need fancy shit, but it seems like he's kind of enjoying the fancy shit.  Do I need to add in a fancy shit line to my FIRE budget, which increases it and the amount I need to quit by 10%?

I think it would be great it MMM posted something introspective about these changes, and whether they add to his QOL.  Would he continue traveling if he couldn't write it off?  And if he didn't would he miss it?  He has gobs of money now, but if he knew then what he knew now, would have have worked an extra year in order to afford these additions (in a universe where he didn't have the gobs of blog money)?   Things like that would be interesting reading (in a blog that I've mostly stopped reading because, like most topic-specific blogs, they start being redundant) and I think would help people better examine their lives and needs, which is something that his earlier posts did quite well.

Thanks, @Villanelle, I'm taking notes here for a book on sustainable lifetime FI.  I really like that "X+Y" analogy... for first-class airfare and AirBnBs instead of economy coach and hostels.

I wonder if it's also age-related or aging-related.  I frequently hear/read people say "That worked out well for me when I was tent-camping through Europe during college, but now (20 years later) I can't sleep on the ground anymore."  I'm skeptical about the "can't" part (although I now keenly appreciate the aftereffects on older joints) and wonder whether it's hedonic adaptation.  Tent-camping might've been great when your daily living quarters were a college dorm, but no longer ideal when you live in a townhouse or a single-family home.  The lifestyle expansion is carrying over from an upgraded home into upgrading travel as well. 

Yet that's contrasted with the retirement spending smile where people tend to reduce their spending about 1% per year for a decade or two until ramping it up again in the final few years of life.  I think that phenomenon is pretty well understood for traditional retirees between ages 65-90 but doesn't have enough data for people who reach FI in their 30s or 40s.

[Warlord1986]

Somewhere on this forum is a lengthy discussion about how the Frugalwoods are disingenuous and dishonest in how they present themselves.

[Hargrove]

I think it would be great it MMM posted something introspective about these changes, and whether they add to his QOL.  Would he continue traveling if he couldn't write it off?  And if he didn't would he miss it?  He has gobs of money now, but if he knew then what he knew now, would have have worked an extra year in order to afford these additions (in a universe where he didn't have the gobs of blog money)?   Things like that would be interesting reading (in a blog that I've mostly stopped reading because, like most topic-specific blogs, they start being redundant) and I think would help people better examine their lives and needs, which is something that his earlier posts did quite well.

We can agree on that. I remember reading about 90+ year-old Guinness record athletes who had VO2 max like 55 year-olds, and bone strength so high, it caused some doctors to question if we were giving the right medical advice about exercize to the elderly. How did the habit (or fight) to get up and go to the gym change (or stay the same) over the years? The article didn't say. Comfort can be more tempting, though, even as self-denial offers bigger benefits.

My difficulty is when you say "when the one assuring everyone... starts to indulge in Y, it makes perfect sense that it would have people questioning his words." Which words do you mean? Like questioning his commitment, or questioning whether the ideal he described has value? I see value in the ideal regardless, but like you, I could enjoy reading more about how Pete's perspective evolved (or stayed the same).

[Villanelle]

I think it would be great it MMM posted something introspective about these changes, and whether they add to his QOL.  Would he continue traveling if he couldn't write it off?  And if he didn't would he miss it?  He has gobs of money now, but if he knew then what he knew now, would have have worked an extra year in order to afford these additions (in a universe where he didn't have the gobs of blog money)?   Things like that would be interesting reading (in a blog that I've mostly stopped reading because, like most topic-specific blogs, they start being redundant) and I think would help people better examine their lives and needs, which is something that his earlier posts did quite well.

We can agree on that. I remember reading about 90+ year-old Guinness record athletes who had VO2 max like 55 year-olds, and bone strength so high, it caused some doctors to question if we were giving the right medical advice about exercize to the elderly. How did the habit (or fight) to get up and go to the gym change (or stay the same) over the years? The article didn't say. Comfort can be more tempting, though, even as self-denial offers bigger benefits.

My difficulty is when you say "when the one assuring everyone... starts to indulge in Y, it makes perfect sense that it would have people questioning his words." Which words do you mean? Like questioning his commitment, or questioning whether the ideal he described has value? I see value in the ideal regardless, but like you, I could enjoy reading more about how Pete's perspective evolved (or stayed the same).

I guess I mean something like, when he says, "all you need is X to be happy; X+Y offers no additional happiness", but then indulges in Y and seems to get some additional happiness in it, then they have to question the notion that there's no real additional happiness in Y.   In other words, if there's no additional happiness in Y, then why does Pete do Y?

It wasn't just Pete's words that inspired.  It was that he lived the ideals and that was sort of proof that they worked.  He lived with less and said he was about as happy as he could be (as far as buying or having things).  He was proof that what he said was true--he spent less and was content.  And there was a lot of "if he can do it and say it's actually true, then clearly it works and I can do it to".   That's an over simplification, but the fact that he lived the life gave it all a lot more credibility than just a philosophical abstract theory. 

And now it seems like he's edged away from that.  It's not an abandonment of the principles, and anyone who uses it to reject everything he says whole cloth is just looking for an excuse.  But it does bring up questions that I think are fair, interesting, and worth exploring (both personally and, ideally, on the blog, too). 

[robartsd]

I've never been hardcore MMM.  For me, by far the biggest take away was the shockingly simple math.  I didn't know about 4%.  I had NO IDEA how much I needed to retire and that was scary and overwhelming.  MMM fixed that for me and it changed the entire picture because I could set a clear goal and feel pretty confident that it would work out.  So whether MMM buys a yacht and a Hummer tomorrow or not doesn't make much difference to me, but for those who really glommed on to the more minimalist messages, I can see how it might be discouraging or cause them to question.  He says we don't need fancy shit, but it seems like he's kind of enjoying the fancy shit.  Do I need to add in a fancy shit line to my FIRE budget, which increases it and the amount I need to quit by 10%?

My overall position is quite similar. Being able to estimate what it would take to retire and understand the impact of spending level is a big deal. I think my attitude is that I can reach FI as quickly as possible if I live as frugally as I can stand. Instead of RE immediately at FI, I think I'd continue to work (and adding spending in line with maintaining a sustainable FI) until RE is more appealing than adding spending.

[roomtempmayo]

Somewhere on this forum is a lengthy discussion about how the Frugalwoods are disingenuous and dishonest in how they present themselves.

I just uncovered that thread.  What an epic public trial by internet.

[Cassie]

Spartana, we have found just the opposite and actually definitely want more creature comforts. We used to have a big group of people to camp with and gradually we all went from tents to used campers. We are selling ours as only one couple goes any more but the group ranges from ages 57-70.

[chasesfish]

"Making it all up"

A bunch of us FIREy types hanging out on the patio of Fincon wondered the same thing.  I'd have to be quite the ruse....but I'm near certain there's an impostor or two somewhere.

As for the "money in blogging/personal finance"....its like any other business, there's great money at the very top of the field.

Some of the top earners off the top of my head include MMM and The Frugal Girl (who do it all through content/ads/affiliates), Making Sense of Cents (blog/course affiliates), Millennial Money Man (FB Ad course), ChooseFI, Afford Anything, and White Coat Investor / Physician on FIRE.   Those are six/seven figure grossing businesses.  There are a number of others in that category but those are who I can think of.   The economics can hit a turning point when you get a certain level of readership, know how much you make per post, then pay a flat fee for freelance writers. 

There's an entire second tier of "nice supplemental income" - that's the majority of the profitable FIRE bloggers I see.  Make $500 to $4,000/mo depending on the level of effort you want to put in it.   I'm happy to have a blog that's supporting its cost and might cover my costs to a few events in in future years.  I can't pay for anything with a good ROI.

Someone comment about Root of Good - I can confirm he is 100% who he claims to be on his blog - I've enjoyed dinner with Justin and Kaisorn  in their backyard.

[Nords]

Yay another @Nords book. I'd read that! Can probably add to the early retired data about hedonistic adaptation as well - that is if I have any free time between naps and yelling at the young uns to get off my damn lawn.

Thanks!  There's always another Nords book (or two).  But I try to avoid deadlines.

I've added your name to the list.  I'll circle back for your quotes & stories when I return to writing about FI lifestyle.

I agree that people may adapt a more hedonist lifestyle as they age but I think that may be more a personality issue than a comfort issue. I know I've adapted a more minimalist downgraded life over time (spartanistic adaptation?) because it suits me better as I get older and have more experiences that lead me to know what I like in life.  It's not about seeking or needing more creature comforts, it's more about no longer doing things that you aren't that excited about. For example I'd rather be in a tent trip then on a fancy cruise or luxury tour type vacation. I'd only go if I had too for some reason. I think MMM is like that too. He doesn't seem to like travel but will go if he needs to promote his blog business as long as it's not coming out of his "personal" stash. I get the impression he really rather just be home riding his bike and tinkering with stuff.

And there's the age thing. A 35 year old single retiree might want to really experience everything (including the expensive stuff like foreign adventures,  food, drink, nightlife, hookers and blow). A couple of decades later at 55 a beer by the campfire after a long day hiking might be all the excitement you want.

This is more complicated than sore bones from sleeping in a tent!

I still enjoy relaxing after a long day of hiking, and I enjoy it more when I'm traveling in other countries.  But the more my spouse and I travel, the more we'd prefer to do it on our own instead of with that fancy cruise or luxury tour itinerary.

[powskier]

While we're bagging on financial bloggers, I'll add my pet peeve.

Why is it that basically nobody wants to talk transparently about their finances from age 18 to about age 26?  Most who are very proud of their financial situation seem to have an origin story like: "This story begins at age 29 when we were happily married, with two super-expensive graduate degrees, 400k in home equity, two paid off cars, 250k in tax advantaged accounts, and zero debt of any sort."

Wait... if that's where you're at at 29, you basically already have the world by the tail.  I'm not even interested in what comes next.  What I want to know is how you got there.  And if the unstated story as a whole lot of intergenerational wealth transfer, then all this really is is a story about how rich families tend to stay rich, which is about the oldest story in capitalism and not particularly insightful or interesting.

Right there with you. The articles will frequently talk about how "they only eat out once a year" but never mention how Mom & Dad payed for school, house downpayment and $500k "starter" fund....
It appears the internet has just become a giant pool of people trying to impress strangers and everything from outright lies to misrepresentations, omissions and rounding up or down is fairly normal, so yeah I'd expect there is plenty of info left out, I mean otherwise like you point out it's not that compelling . Same reason people don't post their mundane life on social media, only the highlights. There's a lot of very empty people out there pretending something else. It's fair to assume part of the FIRE blogs are leaving pertinent details out.

[Cassie]

I plan and book all our trips. The last thing I want to do is be on a tour but most of our friends travel that way. We started traveling in our early 40’s while still working. A month is the longest I want to be away from home especially without my doggies. Last year we took a 6 week driving trip with the dogs that we cut short after a month because we just wanted to be home.  We are going to Europe for a month in August.