Author Topic: Do we need a new age of facepunching?  (Read 8701 times)

theninthwall

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Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« on: March 18, 2024, 03:12:16 PM »
"The moment you convince yourself that your current life could not be improved and you are entitled to everything you now have, is the moment you become a helpless Consumer Sucka."

That's a quote from an old Mr Money Mustache article. I've been reading a lot of Reddit lately (God help me, I'm addicted) and I see a lot of threads saying how retirement is impossible, the economy is stacked against everyone etc - you know the type (I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of comments are bots or astroturfing). I also watch a few financial audit type channels and it's crazy common how people in bad financial situations are getting Doordash fast food or are stuck under enormous car loans.

One of the benefits in living in a consumer society is that income tends to be on the higher side, on the presumption that we will use it to consume. To me, the hack seems to be that if you disengage in mindless consumption you can pocket the benefit for early retirement, or whatever else you may want to use excess funds on.

But that only works if you take heed of the quote above. I think a large portion of people believe they are entitled to fast food. Because it has been marketed as a cheap luxury in the past, they see it as the lowest rung on the ladder of discretionary spending, and now that this situation is changing they are angry and looking for someone to blame. "What has the world come to if I can't afford a Big Mac?" But essentially they are paying servants to make their food for them. $10 a meal, twice a day (not unusual for many Americans) is $20, which is $140 a week which is $7280 a year, which over 30 years would be over $686,000 at 7% growth. And the same people will say they don't know how they will retire! I haven't even factored in inflation on the meal (nor have I factored in what they would alternatively eat, but this is just angry rant math so forgive me).

And that's just one example of the consumer mindset. Cars are a whole other minefield, with the total sticker price of no consideration versus the monthly payment.

I'm not actually sure what my point is, other than to suggest that where inflation is hitting it is more important than ever not to be a Consumer Sucka.

moof

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2024, 03:30:51 PM »
I see a trend in popular media and even reddit where people think “FIRE” means living like a college student on rice and beans so you can retire at 30 to continue to live on rice and beans.  The alternative is to YOLO with a Ford Raptor and monthly cruises.  Lost along the way is simply living modestly below your means and quietly building wealth.

As you state, just socking away an extra few hundred a month would help many folks be able to retire well, possibly even early.  Instead the default is that most folks seem to be chronically a little short each month, financing cars, buying take-out on credit cards, using buy-now-pay-later to get by and so forth.  Those little shortages compound in the wrong direction and they find themselves buried in debt to the point where facepunches are inadequate and sound like out of touch advice.

My wife and I had a long discussion last night about life skills, and it was sobering to think how few folks understand things like the social security break points, what all the line items on a paystub mean, or how to estimate what your take home pay will look like.  In that context it is amazing we don’t have even worse outcomes than we do.


Tasse

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2024, 03:40:32 PM »
My wife and I had a long discussion last night about life skills, and it was sobering to think how few folks understand things like the social security break points, what all the line items on a paystub mean, or how to estimate what your take home pay will look like.  In that context it is amazing we don’t have even worse outcomes than we do.

I consider myself reasonably financially literate and I don't understand that one!

To be fair, I was in graduate school without a W2 for a chunk of my 20s, so I haven't even qualified for social security yet. I'll figure it out before it's relevant to me, I'm sure.

theninthwall

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2024, 04:33:11 PM »
Instead the default is that most folks seem to be chronically a little short each month, financing cars, buying take-out on credit cards, using buy-now-pay-later to get by and so forth.  Those little shortages compound in the wrong direction and they find themselves buried in debt to the point where facepunches are inadequate and sound like out of touch advice.

That's a really good point. Compounding is powerful, but it works in both directions. What creates a miracle retirement one way creates an inescapable debt nightmare the other. Both become more powerful with long term inputs.

Sanitary Stache

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2024, 05:03:50 PM »
I am really drawn to the articles and discussion around relative wealth. The ones where I find out I am in the 60th percentile of net worth but middle income. Or the living wage calculator that says I need $4 more per hour to earn a livable wage without accounting for retirement savings. but I am somehow able to have a 30% savings rate on less than a livable wage because the calculator is based on what people spend not on what it is possible or even reasonable to spend.

There are some facepunches needed for sure. But I think the majority of them need to land on the excessively wealthy that choose to live paycheck to paycheck. A raise means a new car or a trip to an island. Or DoorDash.


Ron Scott

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2024, 05:26:36 PM »
I’m not sure when the “facepunch” concept started on Internet forums but it’s hopelessly juvenile. So—you don’t like what someone says about their spending on the forum and your say something nasty hoping others will join you?  Is this the fucking 3rd grade?

Regarding reckless spending and consumerism, a certain percentage of the population will engage in it and the rest will not. Better to focus on things you can actually change than keep repeating to anonymous strangers how much you love the groupthink.

Do we need A NEW AGE of facepunch? Uh boy…
« Last Edit: March 18, 2024, 05:29:02 PM by Ron Scott »

Moustachienne

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2024, 05:57:46 PM »
Ummm...there's a blog you might want to read. Or not.  :):)


I’m not sure when the “facepunch” concept started on Internet forums but it’s hopelessly juvenile. So—you don’t like what someone says about their spending on the forum and your say something nasty hoping others will join you?  Is this the fucking 3rd grade?

Regarding reckless spending and consumerism, a certain percentage of the population will engage in it and the rest will not. Better to focus on things you can actually change than keep repeating to anonymous strangers how much you love the groupthink.

Do we need A NEW AGE of facepunch? Uh boy…

theninthwall

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2024, 07:03:07 PM »
I’m not sure when the “facepunch” concept started on Internet forums but it’s hopelessly juvenile. So—you don’t like what someone says about their spending on the forum and your say something nasty hoping others will join you?  Is this the fucking 3rd grade?

Regarding reckless spending and consumerism, a certain percentage of the population will engage in it and the rest will not. Better to focus on things you can actually change than keep repeating to anonymous strangers how much you love the groupthink.

Do we need A NEW AGE of facepunch? Uh boy…

It's just an observation man! :)
To clarify my thoughts, there's some financial content out there these days advising that small luxuries are something that don't matter in the context of getting to retirement (think Ramit Sethi, though I do enjoy watching his stuff). There's also more content I'm noticing that gives up on the idea of retirement because someone thinks being able to afford fast food is the starting point, not a luxury.
I'm simply saying that things once marketed as cheap luxuries have changed to become noticeably uncheap - but perhaps I didn't phrase that well.

Fru-Gal

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2024, 08:36:19 PM »
I was thinking yesterday that Universal Basic Income is already here. Previously, by that statement I meant that it had essentially been tested via Covid stimulus payments and it was a wild success: an economy that did not crash, people not on the streets, food still available, burgeoning industries (AI), etc.

Today, I mean that all of the automation that we now live with — and which will only increase, barring catastrophe — is a form of UBI for us all. The ability to never cook. The ability to spend hours of the day staring at screens. The ability to work remotely, shop remotely, socialize remotely… these are all a form of UBI allowing us to either maximize our savings and health, or fritter them away.

So yeah, hedonistic adaptation is real, it’s destroying the planet, and we need constant vigilance! Punch away!

bmjohnson35

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2024, 03:20:11 AM »

It does feel like there are way too many of these articles circulating these days.  In addition, the amount of articles blaming one generation for the troubles of another has also seen a major uptick.  The scary thing is that I notice that many people don't know how to think critically anymore, or they have lost interest in doing so.


Askel

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2024, 05:20:17 AM »
I'm sorry, could you repeat that? I wasn't listening, I was shopping for bike parts and home improvement supplies. :D

Even bikesnobnyc is throwing facepunches this morning.  https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/bikes-and-biking/how-to-get-rid-of-bikes/


Ron Scott

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2024, 06:03:25 AM »
I'm sorry, could you repeat that? I wasn't listening, I was shopping for bike parts and home improvement supplies. :D

Even bikesnobnyc is throwing facepunches this morning.  https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/bikes-and-biking/how-to-get-rid-of-bikes/

He says the minimum number of bikes you need is 3. Not true because it depends on where you bike. My minimum is 5. I put most of my miles on a road bike. I mountain bike so got one of those. Touring with panniers? That’s #3. Ride low tide on the beach? Fat tire is #4. And an old roadie for the place in Florida. 5.

I suppose I could be a bit more frugal and use the fat tire as a mountain bike but I’ve gone soft and gotten used to front suspension. And I already double up with the tourer, using it as a general purpose hybrid around town, so enough’s enough.

SpaceCow

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2024, 08:24:26 AM »
I, too, have grown weary of the "I make $100k and can't afford to live" posts. I spend less time on reddit because of the defeatist groupthink.

For example, a couple days ago the algorithm showed me this thread, in which the OP complains that his $225k income household can't afford a new patio.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Millennials/comments/1bf37ej/seemingly_accessible_middle_class_purchases_are/?share_id=6ONty6XOTwD8eGXeQQ8yO

I didn't realize how deprived I was! My meager $64k paycheck certainly can't support such bare necessities such as a brand-new patio (built by others, obviously not DIY).

aloevera1

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2024, 08:52:21 AM »
Facepunches or not I think it's OK to admit that the MMM brand of financial prudence (and I mean from 10+ years ago, not the current.. whatever it is) is extremely niche. It will not become mainstream. We can joke about it, we can judge but the reality is that majority of population is not interested in this lifestyle.

That's OK. When arbitrage is discovered, it's usually arbitraged away by the masses.. except when it is really hard to do (and Starbucks tastes great!).

So enjoy the fruit of your labour. :)

eyesonthehorizon

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2024, 08:53:41 AM »
The whole point of the facepunch (for those of us in the know, I guess?!) was that you showed up to receive it. It’s meant to be a bracing critique of unthinking behavior in those ready for a challenge. It doesn’t sneak up on the unwary, where it’s unwanted, it is a response to a call for answers.

So I don’t know how that’s helpful in the Reddit doomer threads, because those people are going there to be validated in how hard they’ve got it, not hear solutions. Those pupils are not ready for the master to appear. Which may look pretty uniformly self-inflicted from the outside - it often is - but you also never know what’s going on that’s more personal than they want to put up on the internet; they’re likely to share the details that look the most like everyone else they know, because they’re looking to feel validated & “normal” about following the recipe for normalcy but remaining miserable, in a culture where the recipe for happiness is consumption but does not operate as advertised.

Now, if talking about this board, or better yet a subset of this board like the Gauntlet that people can opt into, I’m with you. I miss the fiery challenge to do better out of a call to celebrate what we can overcome & get that virtuous cycle of human agency chugging away along with the financial engine. It’s more satisfying not to find yourself at the far end of the Overton window.

But I would encourage de-toxing yourself from the poison drip of Reddit’s most miserable - what are you looking for there, what can you learn? A little dose of antimustachian shame & comedy can rally a group or an individual, but it’s like alcohol, it makes you feel better without meaningful improvement & adds a lot of empty calories to your life. Best consumed in moderation.

Askel

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2024, 08:54:32 AM »

He says the minimum number of bikes you need is 3. Not true because it depends on where you bike. My minimum is 5. I put most of my miles on a road bike. I mountain bike so got one of those. Touring with panniers? That’s #3. Ride low tide on the beach? Fat tire is #4. And an old roadie for the place in Florida. 5.

I suppose I could be a bit more frugal and use the fat tire as a mountain bike but I’ve gone soft and gotten used to front suspension. And I already double up with the tourer, using it as a general purpose hybrid around town, so enough’s enough.

I have five bikes too along with a totally ridiculous rationalization for each one, but you'll never catch me claiming riding on the beach at low tide is somehow a "need".   :D 

Edit: 6, I have 6 bikes. Too many to even count.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2024, 08:58:07 AM by Askel »

Fru-Gal

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2024, 10:26:59 AM »
I mean, we’re all guilty of overconsumption. But FI, for me, means I get to acquire my toys (bikes, outdoor gear, creative gear, whatever) and if by doing so I can still live my lifestyle and support my family while RE, then it’s OK.

Also, in my book it’s not the stuff like bikes and personal technology that are “bad”, it’s the BIG, HUGE stuff like giant houses and giant cars and giant EVs and international vacations that are marketed as NECESSARY for keeping up with the Joneses.

Of course we can all be wasteful and in general we should minimize that, whether it’s by not wasting food or energy, not irresponsibly discarding things instead of finding them a new home, and craving too many purchases of any sort in order to feel happy.

I do like how society has trended toward sharing and renting. Many times the itch for novelty can be scratched this way instead of by buying a new toy.

It’s also important to accept that desire for novelty is OK and part of what makes many of us tick. Sometimes when I had no money for extras, I would crave going to Home Depot but instead would begin gardening with whatever I had around (replanting, starting cuttings and seeds, finding and fixing free pots). Ironically, within those constraints I often would come up with more creative solutions.

Fru-Gal

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2024, 10:31:15 AM »
I have 2 bikes. My e-bike has fat tires and I LOVE riding on a trail that goes through a nearby marsh.

Turtle

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2024, 10:46:06 AM »
I’m not sure when the “facepunch” concept started on Internet forums but it’s hopelessly juvenile. So—you don’t like what someone says about their spending on the forum and your say something nasty hoping others will join you?  Is this the fucking 3rd grade?

Regarding reckless spending and consumerism, a certain percentage of the population will engage in it and the rest will not. Better to focus on things you can actually change than keep repeating to anonymous strangers how much you love the groupthink.

Do we need A NEW AGE of facepunch? Uh boy…

RE "Facepunch" - because saying "Providing accountability and perspective" doesn't have quite the same ring to it, perhaps?

Log

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2024, 11:10:03 AM »
...My wife and I had a long discussion last night about life skills, and it was sobering to think how few folks understand things like the social security break points, what all the line items on a paystub mean, or how to estimate what your take home pay will look like.  In that context it is amazing we don’t have even worse outcomes than we do.

Things like IQ and personality characteristics are highly heritable. Personality can be deliberately changed, but how is someone with low conscientiousness going to 1) recognize that conscientiousness is a trait they are lacking that would make their life better, and then 2) put in the long, slow, disciplined work of cultivating more conscientiousness?

Half of people have below-average intelligence. Half of people have below-average conscientiousness. Those aren't necessarily the same people, so some intelligent people are disorganized under-achievers who never learn "adulting," and some conscientious people are not smart enough to point their careful, organized, discipline in an actually useful direction.

Expecting that more people would "get it" if only they were presented with the right information is wishful thinking. Lots of people are fundamentally incapable of holding down a well-paying job, living below their means, taking care of their own needs, and saving for their own retirement. Saying otherwise is a useful lie, in the sense that it gets people on the margin to succeed instead of fail. But at the extreme, there is a non-negligible number of people who just can't. I think the widespread questioning of this useful lie has had pretty toxic consequences, as seen on Reddit. Lots of people who can and should be taking care of their own needs are instead complaining about how it's impossible, because that has become a fashionable belief.

Rugged individualism doesn't work. Some people need to be carried. If the highest-functioning members of society are too individualistic to do any carrying, then we outsource the carrying to government through impersonal welfare programs. If we slash welfare programs because we expect those people to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, that's how we get more and more addicts in tents by the freeway ramp.

And if anything, the problem is getting worse as the attention economy actively degrades people's capacity for discipline and focused attention. Smart phones are increasing depression and anxiety, and reducing standardized test scores. Amongst the lucky minority born with the cognitive traits for achievement, there's an even smaller lucky minority who can resist the allure of infinite entertainment, optimized to keep people addicted. On the margin, the attention economy is turning people who could have been self-sufficient into social media zombies who don't have the attention span or the discipline to learn valuable skills that would get them better employment.

So yes, it is amazing that we don't have even worse outcomes than we do. I always try to remember, humanity is just "apes in sweaters." The fact that we have a functioning society at all, with democracy and science and medicine and plumbing and cities and advanced technology... it's amazing.

---

Otherwise, agreed with @Fru-Gal, so much of "winning" financially is in a handful of big decisions, not in the little $5/day decisions. Housing, transportation, travel. As long as people keep driving big fancy cars, living in the biggest fanciest houses they can afford, and thinking a yearly international vacation is an ordinary middle class expense, they are going to be financially precarious.

Also agree with @eyesonthehorizon, Reddit is a toxic cesspool of complainy-pants nonsense, and getting the hell away from it has done wonders for me.

roomtempmayo

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2024, 11:22:40 AM »
I also watch a few financial audit type channels and it's crazy common how people in bad financial situations are getting Doordash fast food or are stuck under enormous car loans.

I suspect that what drives a lot of the overconsumption we see right now among people who really can't afford it - e.g. $1000+ car payments, $1000+ luxury handbags, $2000+ bicycle wheelsets, whatever - is the housing market.  The final, definitive sign of having made it in American society is still a big house in a nice neighborhood that's somewhat exclusive.  When you're priced out of that sign of success, and the daily pat on the back it provides, but you still have money, you consume in other ways that give you some reminder that you've kinda, sorta made it.

I suspect nothing in American consumption will be sorted out until we either massively increase the supply of housing that people find desirable, or change how we think about the relationship of houses to signaling success.  Until then, we're just going to watch people YOLO themselves into debt and frustration.

getsorted

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #21 on: March 19, 2024, 02:09:42 PM »
I also grow tired of the defeatist attitude toward money, but-- I don't know that facepunches are the way forward.

If I ask myself, "What supports me making better financial choices?" the answer is definitely not someone who is doing much, much better than I am saying, "You dumbass, stop buying taquitos! Go get a better job!"

For me, what works better is:
1. Hope for the future (seeing that other people like me have managed to secure their future).
2. Encouragement to add new ways of saving or making money to my money-saving toolbox.

MMM posts have always been a mix of facepunching, modeling, and encouragement. I think he over-estimated the relative importance of the facepunch and under-estimated the impact of simply modeling what he did in detail.

People make better decisions when they know how, and when they feel like they can. There are times when pressure/facepunching is effective, but in my experience, those are usually only motivating for people who already have a strong sense of self-worth and their own capability. People who are already deeply discouraged and pessimistic do not respond well to face-punches.

Luke Warm

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2024, 02:19:40 PM »
I'm sorry, could you repeat that? I wasn't listening, I was shopping for bike parts and home improvement supplies. :D

Even bikesnobnyc is throwing facepunches this morning.  https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/bikes-and-biking/how-to-get-rid-of-bikes/

He says the minimum number of bikes you need is 3. Not true because it depends on where you bike. My minimum is 5. I put most of my miles on a road bike. I mountain bike so got one of those. Touring with panniers? That’s #3. Ride low tide on the beach? Fat tire is #4. And an old roadie for the place in Florida. 5.

I suppose I could be a bit more frugal and use the fat tire as a mountain bike but I’ve gone soft and gotten used to front suspension. And I already double up with the tourer, using it as a general purpose hybrid around town, so enough’s enough.

The other day when I rode down to the grocery store I saw a full suspension E-fatbike with racks. That dude was covering all the bases.

badger1988

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2024, 04:52:57 PM »
I'm sorry, could you repeat that? I wasn't listening, I was shopping for bike parts and home improvement supplies. :D

Even bikesnobnyc is throwing facepunches this morning.  https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/bikes-and-biking/how-to-get-rid-of-bikes/

He says the minimum number of bikes you need is 3. Not true because it depends on where you bike. My minimum is 5. I put most of my miles on a road bike. I mountain bike so got one of those. Touring with panniers? That’s #3. Ride low tide on the beach? Fat tire is #4. And an old roadie for the place in Florida. 5.

I suppose I could be a bit more frugal and use the fat tire as a mountain bike but I’ve gone soft and gotten used to front suspension. And I already double up with the tourer, using it as a general purpose hybrid around town, so enough’s enough.

Looks like an opportunity to kill 2 birds with one stone here ;)

Fru-Gal

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2024, 05:58:57 PM »
Let’s remember that, from what I recall, in the blog MMM never delivered a facepunch to an individual.

He very carefully problem-solved a number of things, from financial scarcity and OMY and “hair on fire” debt emergencies to how to become a master bike commuter by navigating like a cyclist instead a car driver and how to install solar panels yourself.

Telecaster

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2024, 06:04:42 PM »
IIRC, the origin of "facepunch" was when people would confess their non-ideal financial situation and acknowledge they deserved a facepunch for getting into a mess. 

bluecollarmusician

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2024, 07:39:06 PM »
https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/05/15/mustache-on-the-move-the-evil-mister-money/

Maybe the origin...

While many consider the "facepunch" to be apocryphal, that and other phrases like complainy-pants, etc were something that drew people to the blog who were both high on the personal accountability scale, and also willing to laugh at themselves- and not take things too seriously.

As time went on, things mellowed- people complained about the MMM persona as if it was the PA from real life. People participate in the Forums who never read or cared for the blog.

 I think the PA from 15 years ago said what he had to say, and for anyone to show up now and judge the context of it is silly, since it's the reason they found the blog and the forum in the first place. 


Psychstache

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2024, 07:57:59 PM »
Half of people have below-average intelligence.

I know these seems pedantic, but given that IQ tests* are standardized norm-referenced assessments, median is a poor choice for defining the average. Given the normal distribution, it is more reasonable to say that truly average intelligence lies in the middle of the distribution of scores. You could all the middle everything from the 25-75 percentiles (with the bottom 25% being below average and the top 25% being above average) or you could use the standard deviation as a cutoff, which would put all scores between 85-115 as average, making for about 68% of the population (with the remaining 32% evenly split between above and below average). I attached some handy dandy charts for reference.

*formal IQ tests such as the Stanford-Binet, Wechsler, Woodcock-Johnson, etc. Not random crap on Facebook or app commercials.

Ron Scott

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2024, 09:15:25 PM »
Otherwise, agreed with @Fru-Gal, so much of "winning" financially is in a handful of big decisions, not in the little $5/day decisions. Housing, transportation, travel. As long as people keep driving big fancy cars, living in the biggest fanciest houses they can afford, and thinking a yearly international vacation is an ordinary middle class expense, they are going to be financially precarious.

It certainly helps to avoid making big spending mistakes. But the appropriate level of expenses to manage a life is always contingent on means.

Better to put the real energy in your life into generating more income than pinching pennies.

eyesonthehorizon

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2024, 10:12:16 PM »
I suspect that what drives a lot of the overconsumption we see right now among people who really can't afford it - e.g. $1000+ car payments, $1000+ luxury handbags, $2000+ bicycle wheelsets, whatever - is the housing market.  The final, definitive sign of having made it in American society is still a big house in a nice neighborhood that's somewhat exclusive.  When you're priced out of that sign of success, and the daily pat on the back it provides, but you still have money, you consume in other ways that give you some reminder that you've kinda, sorta made it.

I suspect nothing in American consumption will be sorted out until we either massively increase the supply of housing that people find desirable, or change how we think about the relationship of houses to signaling success.  Until then, we're just going to watch people YOLO themselves into debt and frustration.

I suspect this is spot on. If nothing else it’s the reason for fancy trucks costing more than trailer homes - a ”proof” of “success” made portable.

Every time I see someone insist that it’s about the big tickets, not the nickel & dime (aka $5 & $10 daily expenses), I can’t help but think of my ex-coworkers. I have a similar or fancier house to many of them, but skipping an extra $1500 per month in consumable luxuries forgotten by next payday means they’re still waking up to dread that office when I don’t have to. (That’s not a pleasant thought; I wish they’d have tasted the proverbial water I led them to.) It’s also proof that the important thing isn’t any specific optimization, so much as just optimizing away what isn’t a source of joy, which is likely 95% stuff someone had to advertise to you. Housing to me - location & character of the environment - really is desirable to me & worth prioritizing, whereas weekly blowouts, golf games, happy hour, shopping excursions, & sushi dinners weren’t.


While many consider the "facepunch" to be apocryphal, that and other phrases like complainy-pants, etc were something that drew people to the blog who were both high on the personal accountability scale, and also willing to laugh at themselves- and not take things too seriously.

As time went on, things mellowed- people complained about the MMM persona as if it was the PA from real life. People participate in the Forums who never read or cared for the blog.

 I think the PA from 15 years ago said what he had to say, and for anyone to show up now and judge the context of it is silly, since it's the reason they found the blog and the forum in the first place. 

100%. The self-deprecating laugh at this existential joke, being after all silly primates in sweaters lusting over the latest techno-banana, had a very humanist ring to it from the start. I know a lot of people don’t find it resonates for them, which is fine, but it was what made this website a gathering point! As did a belief that life was a happy animal experience of learning & social connections, rather than a project of excavating the biggest pile of raw materials a high paycheck can afford before it & you both end up deposited back in the ground. More of that humanism & environmental thinking is only for the good, I think, as long as it’s true to the gentle spiritedness behind the faux bombast & deployed specifically at the receptive.

Must_ache

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2024, 08:14:45 AM »
I’m not sure when the “facepunch” concept started on Internet forums but it’s hopelessly juvenile.

Completely agree.  This is the internet, let's be real nobody is going to facepunch anyone.  You might as well tell us you're going to hire an assassin to shoot yourself.

I could have retired in 2020 on $1.0M and lived on $40,000 but I didn't want to. 
I waited 4 years longer and now I have $1.6M and am very happy to live on $64,000.  Next Friday my full-time work ceases permanently (as far as I can tell)
People that want to live a more extravagant lifestyle are free to save us more. 

Just because the author of this website is happy to run around on a bike to save the planet and a few bucks doesn't mean I am. 

Must_ache

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2024, 08:21:16 AM »
Half of people have below-average intelligence.

I know these seems pedantic, but given that IQ tests* are standardized norm-referenced assessments, median is a poor choice for defining the average. Given the normal distribution, it is more reasonable to say that truly average intelligence lies in the middle of the distribution of scores.

Let's be even more pedantic shall we?  For the normal distribution, the mean and the median are always the SAME VALUE. 
An IQ of 95 is not average; it is slightly below the average or mean of as your chart suggests, then the proper term for that range already exists: "Interquartile"

Indeed, half of people have below-average intelligence.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2024, 08:28:59 AM by Must_ache »

waltworks

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2024, 08:37:43 AM »
Why are we talking about intelligence? You don't need to be particularly smart to become FI or live a lifestyle that will lead to FIRE. It's not like getting an A in differential equations or achieving a 2000 chess rating or something. You just have to delay gratification and/or seek pleasure in things that don't involve ridiculous levels of consumption.

I mean, I've explained it to our 9 and 11 year olds (who are admittedly pretty smart, but still kids) and they understand it perfectly. My 4 year old, not so much - she'd spend all our money on Frozen themed merchandise in a hot second if she had the power to.

Regardless, while it might feel good to pat ourselves on the back because we FIRE people are "smarter" than the average bear, it's really pretty pointless. This isn't a zero sum game, and we'd all benefit from a less wasteful and consumerist society. Calling the people who are the consumers dumb is not going to change any minds.

That said, if you're on this forum, you are absolutely a facepunch candidate. I've taken a few to the schnoz here myself over the years and they were all good for me.

-W

clarkfan1979

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2024, 08:59:23 AM »
My wife and I had a long discussion last night about life skills, and it was sobering to think how few folks understand things like the social security break points, what all the line items on a paystub mean, or how to estimate what your take home pay will look like.  In that context it is amazing we don’t have even worse outcomes than we do.

I consider myself reasonably financially literate and I don't understand that one!

To be fair, I was in graduate school without a W2 for a chunk of my 20s, so I haven't even qualified for social security yet. I'll figure it out before it's relevant to me, I'm sure.

I listened to a podcast on the break down of social security payout and I thought it was pretty interesting. It might have been the bigger pockets money podcast.

The main "take-away" that I got from it was that social security is another form of marginal taxes. For people that make less money, they get a higher percentage of money refunded back to them at retirement. For people that make more money, they get less of a percentage refunded back to them during retirement.

Let's say person A averaged 50K/year for 35 years and their benefit was $2500/month. Then you have person B who averaged 100K/year for 35 years. Their benefit is not going to be exactly double of person A, even though their contributions were exactly double. Their benefit is likely to be the in $4,000/month range.

I just made up some numbers when it comes to actual payouts. I was trying to show how higher income people get less of a payout as a percentage of their contributions. If anyone wants to actually crunch the numbers on real calculated payouts, go for it.





force majeure

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2024, 09:26:08 AM »
I see a neighbour.. he cant be more than 25, works in the food service industry.. I mean serving customers.
He just bought a Camaro... its a few years old, but its got 450 break horsepower. I know this because, it was featured on a BBC TV show.
Maybe he got a deal on it ...its gotta be 50K in price.

Log

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2024, 09:56:19 AM »
Why are we talking about intelligence? You don't need to be particularly smart to become FI or live a lifestyle that will lead to FIRE. It's not like getting an A in differential equations or achieving a 2000 chess rating or something. You just have to delay gratification and/or seek pleasure in things that don't involve ridiculous levels of consumption.

I mean, I've explained it to our 9 and 11 year olds (who are admittedly pretty smart, but still kids) and they understand it perfectly. My 4 year old, not so much - she'd spend all our money on Frozen themed merchandise in a hot second if she had the power to.

Regardless, while it might feel good to pat ourselves on the back because we FIRE people are "smarter" than the average bear, it's really pretty pointless. This isn't a zero sum game, and we'd all benefit from a less wasteful and consumerist society. Calling the people who are the consumers dumb is not going to change any minds.

That said, if you're on this forum, you are absolutely a facepunch candidate. I've taken a few to the schnoz here myself over the years and they were all good for me.

-W

When I originally brought it up it was in conjunction with conscientiousness. A high-conscientiousness person without remarkable intelligence can certainly FIRE. A highly intelligent person with low conscientiousness would struggle to FIRE. I think conscientiousness is more mutable than intelligence, and tends to go up with age, hence why many people spend many years not planning for the future, and then it clicks later.

Laura33

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2024, 10:14:11 AM »
Why are we talking about intelligence? You don't need to be particularly smart to become FI or live a lifestyle that will lead to FIRE. It's not like getting an A in differential equations or achieving a 2000 chess rating or something. You just have to delay gratification and/or seek pleasure in things that don't involve ridiculous levels of consumption.

IDK, to me that's kind of like saying that obese people "just" need to eat less and exercise more.  If it was actually that easy, we wouldn't have a population that was like 2/3 overweight.  People who tend to be naturally good at something often underestimate how hard that thing is for others; it just seems normal, so why wouldn't everyone be able to do that, right?  I make a shit-ton of money because I find figuring out regulations to be like a puzzle, something I can't put down until it all makes sense.  Other people can't do that, or if they could, they'd be fucking miserable at it.  At the same time, I suck at eating healthy food and getting to the gym regularly; my natural inclination is to curl up with a book and some chocolate, so maintaining a normal weight is much harder for me than for many others. 

I do agree it's not entirely about intelligence -- because intelligence is not enough.  You have to be mentally and physically capable of getting and keeping a job.  If you have kids or other dependents, they need to be healthy enough to allow you to keep a job.  You need reliable transportation to get to that job.  You need enough education to understand why and how saving is important and the best way to do that -- which is not a bank account that comes with a ton of fees that drain those least able to afford them.  You need discipline to say no to temptation probably 100 times every day, and the ability to delay gratification to understand that long-term financial security is more important than those 100 other temptations.  Etc. etc. etc.

One study that has stuck with me was the re-thinking of the marshmallow test.  When you are poor, it is actually far more logical to eat the marshmallow in front of you than to await the promise of a second that may well never arrive, or may be taken from you before you have a chance to eat it.  It's a very real poverty mindset.  It's why teen pregnancy has been such a significant issue for the poor for decades.  For most teenagers, it takes effort not to get pregnant -- saying no, obtaining and using reliable birth control, etc.  If you see a better future out there for you, you're much more likely to put in the work and forego instant gratification to obtain that future.  But if you don't see a better future, why bother?  Might as well create that little family right now and have someone to love you.

Do I get frustrated when I read about people making 6 figures and whining about how they can't afford the life they think they're entitled to?  Absolutely.  But people buy fancy cars because they don't think they can ever afford a home; it's entirely illogical to save for something that you don't think you will ever be able to afford.  People put in new patios or send their kids to fancy colleges because they saw their parents do it, and when they can't afford what their parents did, even after doing everything "right," they feel like they will never get ahead, like the deck is stacked against them.  They don't see all the extra luxuries around them that their parents didn't have, because those luxuries are already in the baseline (I guarantee those parents with the patio didn't have $1,000 phones and $300/mo. internet/phone/cable plans). 

And it is hard for the younger generations.  Sure, I get super annoyed when they whine about their budget while ordering Door Dash.  I see my daughter making $80K right out of college and wonder wtf she possibly has to complain about.  At the same time, her apartment is $2K/mo., she needs her car to get to/from work, and she has almost no savings and is entirely dependent on a job that is very difficult and demanding and could fire her any day.  She is legitimately vulnerable in a way I have not been for years.  So she sees me being stable and surrounded by money and owning a home and so thinks it's so much harder for her; I compare her to my own first-job experience and that of my friends and think, damn, she's got it good. 

Finally, at a very fundamental level, we are all Sneetches.  It is absolutely normal for people to want to fit in with their surroundings and obtain/maintain what feels like a decent social status.  We're the weirdos here, the ones who don't give much of a fuck about what other people think -- and even we visit this forum for our own social support system. 

Facepunches are awesome here; Lord knows I deserve a mess of them.  But I also signed up for that.  People like the guy in the article didn't.  A facepunch is just going to convince him that we don't know what we're talking about and can't possibly understand his struggles and choices.  (This is why I stopped reading the Antimustachian Hall of Fame threads, because it just felt like we're throwing our shoulders out patting ourselves on the back for being so superior to the common riff-raff).  If that guy is to get that patio, he's going to need someone that he believes actually empathizes with him and gets where he's coming from, so that he can then start to question his assumptions and understand the real tradeoffs he is making in his life that prevent him from getting what he says he wants -- or, even better, understand that he doesn't really want that thing as much as he thinks he does. 

erp

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #37 on: March 20, 2024, 10:32:51 AM »
...

Facepunches are awesome here; Lord knows I deserve a mess of them.  But I also signed up for that.  People like the guy in the article didn't.  A facepunch is just going to convince him that we don't know what we're talking about and can't possibly understand his struggles and choices.  (This is why I stopped reading the Antimustachian Hall of Fame threads, because it just felt like we're throwing our shoulders out patting ourselves on the back for being so superior to the common riff-raff).  If that guy is to get that patio, he's going to need someone that he believes actually empathizes with him and gets where he's coming from, so that he can then start to question his assumptions and understand the real tradeoffs he is making in his life that prevent him from getting what he says he wants -- or, even better, understand that he doesn't really want that thing as much as he thinks he does.

I think consent and context is the core of it. These forums have a surprisingly positive culture of facepunching - a tendency to be rough and tumble while also strongly caring about the success and choices of members. I've seen case studies which commit to tithing, or expensive houses, or caring for relatives, or many other things that are expensive but also understood to be 'priceless'. These choices might be questioned, but we're okay at not buying into a one true path mentality most of the time.

If the main ask of the thread is "this forum should move back to the face punchy roots, because I feel like I'm slipping into consumerist sucka habits" ... I might agree. As my wealth has grown (admittedly to a tiny shadow of some here), I've gotten much less frugal. I have other priorities and it's hard to notice an extra meal out or a lazy choice.

If the main ask of the thread is "society should be more face punchy" ... I think that's trickier. By and large we might all be healthier if we made different consumer choices, but lives are hard and busy, and it's incredibly difficult to shift the needle on an entire society. Buying less/having conversations/supporting good policy/raising happy kids all seem like better ways to pursue a less consumerist and more sustainable world then doubling down of face punches to people who haven't consented to our weird little world and its nuances.

eyesonthehorizon

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #38 on: March 20, 2024, 10:40:05 AM »
My wife and I had a long discussion last night about life skills, and it was sobering to think how few folks understand things like the social security break points, what all the line items on a paystub mean, or how to estimate what your take home pay will look like.  In that context it is amazing we don’t have even worse outcomes than we do.

I consider myself reasonably financially literate and I don't understand that one!

To be fair, I was in graduate school without a W2 for a chunk of my 20s, so I haven't even qualified for social security yet. I'll figure it out before it's relevant to me, I'm sure.

I listened to a podcast on the break down of social security payout and I thought it was pretty interesting. It might have been the bigger pockets money podcast.

The main "take-away" that I got from it was that social security is another form of marginal taxes. For people that make less money, they get a higher percentage of money refunded back to them at retirement. For people that make more money, they get less of a percentage refunded back to them during retirement.

Let's say person A averaged 50K/year for 35 years and their benefit was $2500/month. Then you have person B who averaged 100K/year for 35 years. Their benefit is not going to be exactly double of person A, even though their contributions were exactly double. Their benefit is likely to be the in $4,000/month range.

I just made up some numbers when it comes to actual payouts. I was trying to show how higher income people get less of a payout as a percentage of their contributions. If anyone wants to actually crunch the numbers on real calculated payouts, go for it.

This is overlooking the social security tax cap - once you make (in 2024) $168.6k, you stop paying in altogether. So there’s an inflection point to your earnings vs the payout on the higher end too. Considering that the objective is to prevent your society from a massive population in stick-‘em-up desperation, the ultimate payout is pretty darn cheap if you were a high earner; the middle class pays in most.

jrhampt

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #39 on: March 20, 2024, 10:44:03 AM »
Yes, we probably do need a new age of facepunching every so often.  My facepunch recently was that my company started mandating RTO when I've been WFH for 15 years or so and now live 50 miles from the office.  It was an excellent wakeup call for me to examine my fixed costs which I had not done for some time, and there was a LOT of fat to be trimmed.  A few months later, I am much leaner and boggle at the money I was wasting.  Now back on track and actually very thankful in some ways for the wake up call.  Most of us need that every couple of years or so.

Log

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #40 on: March 20, 2024, 11:49:06 AM »
If the main ask of the thread is "society should be more face punchy" ...

This is undeniably a bit of a tangent, but there’s an argument to be made here, in a wider sense than just personal finance.

I just read a little essay about audiences at South x Southwest booing during a panel about AI, and the top rated comment was something about “we need to bring back booing.” If the answer to everything is polite applause, there’s no functioning feedback mechanism. As someone else put it above, “we’re all sneetches.” Public shaming works, but our current post-modern hyper-individualism says that all choices are valid and it’s not anyone’s place to police anyone else’s choices.

There was another essay that made the rounds at some point called something like “In Defense of Karens,” which largely said we all benefit from people who will tell others in public to stop behaving anti-socially. When everyone sits on the train where some asshole plays their music out loud or lights up a joint, and no one says anything, public trust and social cohesion are degraded.

Money is arguably a more touchy subject, but the pro-social argument of “you are expected to secure your own retirement so that someone else doesn’t have to carry you” is arguably much the same thing as “don’t play your music out loud on the bus,” or “if you waste the audience’s time with crap, they will boo.”

beee

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #41 on: March 20, 2024, 12:51:24 PM »
Quote
One of the benefits in living in a consumer society is that income tends to be on the higher side, on the presumption that we will use it to consume. To me, the hack seems to be that if you disengage in mindless consumption you can pocket the benefit for early retirement, or whatever else you may want to use excess funds on.

Here's what worked for me and my wife:
We moved to Canada when we were 20&21 in 2010, being born and raised in small provincial cities in Russia.

So, a lot of things here seem pretty luxurious for us: huge houses, multiple cars per family, eating out as a source of food not as a special event.

Especially eating outs, the first time I was in a restaurant in my life I was 16-17. I still feel really privileged when I have tens of people working just so I have something to eat, even after 14 years in Canada.

You can imagine that our views of what is a prosperous life combined with Canadian salaries made saving big amounts of money pretty simple: small home, 1 car, rare eating out.

spartana

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #42 on: March 20, 2024, 01:11:17 PM »
I always thought face punching was suppose to be self-inflicted. Like a "DOH!" moment of realizing you are being a consumer sucker and could get the same results or better if you did it differently. Seems MMM mentioned that in his blog somewhere years ago. I lime being called out on my behavior - which admittedly is pretty damn Original MMM - as I see it as a wake up call to recognize there might 've a better way.

eyesonthehorizon

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #43 on: March 20, 2024, 03:52:26 PM »
I always thought face punching was suppose to be self-inflicted. Like a "DOH!" moment of realizing you are being a consumer sucker and could get the same results or better if you did it differently. Seems MMM mentioned that in his blog somewhere years ago. I lime being called out on my behavior - which admittedly is pretty damn Original MMM - as I see it as a wake up call to recognize there might 've a better way.

I never quite conceptualized it this way but that’s a better way of putting it. I always experienced facepunches on the forum in the early days as what southerners would call “come-to-Jesus” moments, most recently being indirectly called out at least a year & a half ago for considering letting someone install solar for me at an eyewatering price. I did have a baked-in waiting period on my own decision, so I can’t quite claim this single-handedly saved me from a mid-five-figure commitment, but it did function as an outside reminder of the limitations of my own view & expectations of normal at a time I was feeling very temporarily able to spend more than usual. Not everyone saw that for the kind, concerned eye to wise use of resources that I reflect on it being, though, iirc.

So yes, the actual facepunch is self-administered, the function of the facepunching circle is more to question if it might be time for one. Simply knowing that others view something differently can invoke a “person high on the self-accountability scale” to re-examine their own thinking, with no need to leap to feeling judged. My absolute sentiment to the counterpart in such a discussion is deep gratitude because everywhere else in my life I will only find salesmen & yes-men. The most positive, supportive, loving people in my life all want me to have nice things ... & generally lack the financial skills to comprehend the trade offs involved.

Purple_Crayon

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #44 on: March 20, 2024, 09:52:32 PM »
I feel like we've just moved one generation from MMM. It has led, as is to be expected, to a shift in rhetoric.

The most common argument I now see around FIRE forums is that if you are 20, FIRE is now impossible, because it's so much harder than it was twenty years ago. I won't lie and say it doesn't frustrate me when folks across all of recorded history have persistently acted like they are in the most difficult generation no matter what generation they are in. In my experience, I tend to find most people look for whatever external justification they can find to describe their plight, and how it could never possibly have any causal relationship to any of the choices they make or don't make.

For folks ten years older or ten years younger than Pete, advice (and the invite to facepunch oneself) was likely perceived as if it were coming from a peer, or someone with whom they could identify to some degree. Now whenever MMM says anything, all the comments are about how life is so much harder now and that his advice is essentially irrelevant to those much younger than he is.

I, personally, was drawn to MMM for the personal accountability (which was how I always interpreted the face punch). I still find a lot of good discussion in FIRE threads, but the trend has definitely seemingly shifted from pointing the finger of accountability in one's own direction to outwardly at literally anyone else.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2024, 02:50:14 PM by Purple_Crayon »

LateStarter

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #45 on: March 21, 2024, 08:02:29 AM »
I always thought facepunching originated here: The Evil Mister Money

By this definition, a facepunch is a well-intended shock to bring someone to their senses before they make an expensive and needless error.

I might not thank you immediately as I staunch the bloodflow and return to my senses (LOL) but maybe I will in a few days when I get my bank statement, and maybe a life-changing realisation will be had.

Long live the Mustachian facepunch !

Laura33

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #46 on: March 21, 2024, 10:22:31 AM »
the trend has definitely seemingly shifted from pointing the finger of accountability in one's own direction to outwardly at literally anyone else.

Eh, this has always been the case.  Which, of course, is why we needed MMM in the first place.

Cranky

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #47 on: March 21, 2024, 10:24:18 AM »
Many, many people don’t *want* to hear about frugality because we live in a society that says that if you have to be frugal, you’re a failure. I can’t really blame people for not wanting to sign on for that.


roomtempmayo

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #48 on: March 21, 2024, 10:46:21 AM »

And it is hard for the younger generations. 


For some reason, older generations seem to have dug in hard on any recognition that the young might have it tougher than they did.  Or really admitting that it's possible for any generation to have it tougher than the one before.  We seem to be really attached to this narrative of endless progress, even in the face of conflicting evidence.

Perhaps one reason we need to still teach kids history beyond everything always getting better for everyone is to accept that lots and lots of generations had it worse than their parents.  Things don't always get easier and better.  Sometimes they get harder and worse.

If we weren't stuck in debates over generational difficulty, perhaps we could turn our attention toward the productive questions of how to take charge of your life as best you can, and maximize your own efficacy even under nonideal circumstances.

Fru-Gal

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Re: Do we need a new age of facepunching?
« Reply #49 on: March 21, 2024, 11:22:33 AM »
Generational comparison has been weaponized as fifth column rhetoric and commoditized as clickbait. I am so sick of the STUPID labels someone invented for the generations. This, like all division disguised as observation, is based on real fractures in society (gender, ethnicity, age, wealth, geography) but then exacerbated.

It’s like the meme says, “they want you focused on a culture war to keep you from fighting a class war.” But further than that, microfocusing on those labels (which I won’t deign to use) leads to absurd stereotyping and upset. The media is like a narcissistic family member or friend, always keeping you on your toes and finding new ways to upset you.

The milestones of life (thanks, Facebook, for enticing us to share them and selling them to data markets), are worthy of contemplation. But this relentless comparison, outside of say academic study, is pointless.

Is it hard to be a 20-year-old trying to live on their own in a VHCOL area? Is it hard to be a recently paroled felon trying to get a job at 40? Is it hard negotiating retirement with massive debt and piddling social security payments due to lack of foresight or opportunity? Sure, all of these things are hard.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2024, 11:24:41 AM by Fru-Gal »

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!