Author Topic: Do mustachians support universal basic income?  (Read 83721 times)

LennStar

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #600 on: January 13, 2021, 03:49:22 AM »
The main problem with all those pilot programs is that they don't run for a long time. If you want real results, you need to do it for at least 20 years.

Same goes for the German trial that is starting now. A bit above 100 people, but only 3 years.

TheContinentalOp

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #601 on: January 13, 2021, 03:53:03 PM »
The main problem with all those pilot programs is that they don't run for a long time. If you want real results, you need to do it for at least 20 years.

Same goes for the German trial that is starting now. A bit above 100 people, but only 3 years.

Agreed. Recipients know the money will stop after 6 months, a year, two years, and will act accordingly.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #602 on: January 13, 2021, 04:24:01 PM »
I'm happy to volunteer to receive a permanent, free $1000 per month for the rest of my life. I'll let you know what I do with it.

Paul der Krake

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #603 on: January 13, 2021, 04:27:49 PM »
We've basically just had a huge UBI income experiment in the form of the largest unemployment expansion ever.

This got us more netflix subscriptions, more trading on Robinhood, and people complaining that it wasn't enough.

Alternatepriorities

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #604 on: January 13, 2021, 04:52:19 PM »
We've basically just had a huge UBI income experiment in the form of the largest unemployment expansion ever.

This got us more netflix subscriptions, more trading on Robinhood, and people complaining that it wasn't enough.

Even when the numbers make it impossibly clear that the benefits more than made up for the losses on average last. I've mostly heard talk of why it needs to be bigger.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/01/upshot/why-markets-boomed-2020.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab

TLDR: personal income in the US increased by 1.03 trillion last year. Lack of discretionary spending added another half a trillion to disposable income and markets sored.

Looks like the question of how much UBI is enough will always be answered with "just a bit more".

TheContinentalOp

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #605 on: January 14, 2021, 05:24:23 AM »
https://nypost.com/2021/01/13/andrew-yang-to-jump-into-2021-nyc-mayoral-race/

Quote
He plans to roll out a similar plan guaranteeing cash payments to half-a-million New Yorkers up to $5,000 annually when he launches his campaign in Morningside Heights — a program that will carry a $1 billion price tag, according to a document reviewed by The Post.


American GenX

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #606 on: January 14, 2021, 11:12:21 AM »

None of those things are UBI.   The true UBI should go equally to everyone, regardless of how rich they ware, without taking any other social assistance/benefits away from people that they are already receiving or otherwise earned.

And of course, UBI is just a terrible idea.  Directed help to those people that specifically need it is much better use of funds, and management of that with today's computer systems makes it much more practical rather than throwing money at everyone, taking assistance from the poor, and raising taxes on everyone, including the poor, who make out the worst.

See the list of references I posted earlier:

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/do-mustachians-support-universal-basic-income/msg2755155/#msg2755155


Alternatepriorities

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #607 on: January 14, 2021, 01:31:07 PM »
https://nypost.com/2021/01/13/andrew-yang-to-jump-into-2021-nyc-mayoral-race/

Quote
He plans to roll out a similar plan guaranteeing cash payments to half-a-million New Yorkers up to $5,000 annually when he launches his campaign in Morningside Heights — a program that will carry a $1 billion price tag, according to a document reviewed by The Post.

While clearly 1/2 a million in NY is no where near universal, I do wonder how promising to give voters money is not buying votes? Honestly I hope he wins and we get to see how this shakes out without risking the entire country.

mathlete

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #608 on: January 15, 2021, 08:05:07 AM »
Cash payments that don't go to rich people is the same as UBI on a net basis anyway, so I wouldn't get bogged down by semantics.

New York State has an uninsured rate of below 5%. Provided that carries over to NYC, it's not a bad place to start experimenting with UBI IMO.

TheContinentalOp

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #609 on: January 16, 2021, 08:25:47 AM »
https://twitter.com/AyannaPressley/status/1350159028563881984

Quote
Ayanna Pressley
@AyannaPressley
The people deserve, demand and require $2,000 recurring monthly survival checks.

U$2,000 times 12 months times 330 million people = 7.92 billion dollars.

Federal Gov't Tax Revenues in 2019 = 3.863 billion dollars.

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #610 on: January 16, 2021, 10:06:28 AM »
https://twitter.com/AyannaPressley/status/1350159028563881984

Quote
Ayanna Pressley
@AyannaPressley
The people deserve, demand and require $2,000 recurring monthly survival checks.

U$2,000 times 12 months times 330 million people = 7.92 billion dollars.

Your calculation is off by a factor of 1000.

The correct figure is $7.92 trillion.




Federal Gov't Tax Revenues in 2019 = 3.863 billion dollars.

If 3.863 is correct it would have to be in $trillions.

TheContinentalOp

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #611 on: January 16, 2021, 10:13:09 AM »
https://twitter.com/AyannaPressley/status/1350159028563881984

Quote
Ayanna Pressley
@AyannaPressley
The people deserve, demand and require $2,000 recurring monthly survival checks.

U$2,000 times 12 months times 330 million people = 7.92 billion dollars.

Your calculation is off by a factor of 1000.

The correct figure is $7.92 trillion.




Federal Gov't Tax Revenues in 2019 = 3.863 billion dollars.

If 3.863 is correct it would have to be in $trillions.

Right, I used the UK version of billions. My goof. But the point remains that the cost of her checks is two times larger than all the taxes collected by the feds.

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #612 on: January 16, 2021, 10:26:19 AM »
https://twitter.com/AyannaPressley/status/1350159028563881984

Quote
Ayanna Pressley
@AyannaPressley
The people deserve, demand and require $2,000 recurring monthly survival checks.

U$2,000 times 12 months times 330 million people = 7.92 billion dollars.

Your calculation is off by a factor of 1000.

The correct figure is $7.92 trillion.




Federal Gov't Tax Revenues in 2019 = 3.863 billion dollars.

If 3.863 is correct it would have to be in $trillions.

Right, I used the UK version of billions. My goof. But the point remains that the cost of her checks is two times larger than all the taxes collected by the feds.


The amount  of Pressley's  proposed stimulus is staggering.

I doubt such an enormous stimulus  would ever be passed by both chambers of Congress.

Alternatepriorities

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #613 on: January 16, 2021, 04:05:50 PM »
https://twitter.com/AyannaPressley/status/1350159028563881984

Quote
Ayanna Pressley
@AyannaPressley
The people deserve, demand and require $2,000 recurring monthly survival checks.

U$2,000 times 12 months times 330 million people = 7.92 billion dollars.

Your calculation is off by a factor of 1000.

The correct figure is $7.92 trillion.




Federal Gov't Tax Revenues in 2019 = 3.863 billion dollars.

If 3.863 is correct it would have to be in $trillions.


Can we even fathom what that kind of injection of cash would do to the actual economy. You know, the one where people use money as a tool to facilitate the exchanging of goods and services?


John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #614 on: January 16, 2021, 04:22:34 PM »
https://twitter.com/AyannaPressley/status/1350159028563881984

Quote
Ayanna Pressley
@AyannaPressley
The people deserve, demand and require $2,000 recurring monthly survival checks.

U$2,000 times 12 months times 330 million people = 7.92 billion dollars.

Your calculation is off by a factor of 1000.

The correct figure is $7.92 trillion.




Federal Gov't Tax Revenues in 2019 = 3.863 billion dollars.

If 3.863 is correct it would have to be in $trillions.


Can we even fathom what that kind of injection of cash would do to the actual economy.

I think we can via an economic model  of this enormous amount of money injected into this  economy in its present state  taking into account factors such as propensity to spend and velocity of money.


LennStar

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #615 on: January 17, 2021, 04:20:13 AM »
You people are writing your answers in your quotes.

Anyway, this is just the same old "an UBI is not affordable". Which is wrong. We afford it today, as is visible by all the people not starving or freezing to death. Think in production not money.
The rest is purely a "how" question of distribution. Today we do it by paying salaries or dividends (as broad categories). With an UBI we might be doing it by paying the same sum in by UBI and by salaries. Or some other method of distribution.


Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #616 on: January 17, 2021, 06:51:04 AM »
You people are writing your answers in your quotes.

Anyway, this is just the same old "an UBI is not affordable". Which is wrong. We afford it today, as is visible by all the people not starving or freezing to death. Think in production not money.
The rest is purely a "how" question of distribution. Today we do it by paying salaries or dividends (as broad categories). With an UBI we might be doing it by paying the same sum in by UBI and by salaries. Or some other method of distribution.

So if people aren't starving to death or freezing to death let's just strengthen that safety net and call it a day. Oh, and add universal healthcare and education in and then what's even the point of having a UBI?


American GenX

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #617 on: January 17, 2021, 08:36:30 AM »
So if people aren't starving to death or freezing to death let's just strengthen that safety net and call it a day. Oh, and add universal healthcare and education in and then what's even the point of having a UBI?

There is no point of having UBI.  It makes no sense, we can't afford it, and it would only help people that don't need it while hurting the most needy by taking away their social safety net and taxing them higher in order to fund "free" cash bonuses going to more wealthy people.  UBI has got to be among the most lame brain ideas I've ever heard about.  The more I've read up on it, and all of the actual proposed UBI plans that ther are, the more I realize how bad it is and oppose it.

https://fee.org/articles/why-the-freedom-dividend-wont-work-as-explained-by-andrew-yang-himself/

https://wjla.com/news/nation-world/andrew-yang-loves-math-but-does-his-universal-basic-income-proposal-add-up

https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/2/13/18220838/universal-basic-income-ubi-nber-study

https://www.cbpp.org/poverty-and-opportunity/commentary-universal-basic-income-may-sound-attractive-but-if-it-occurred

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-universal-basic-income-is-a-bad-idea-2019-06-19

https://forum.earlyretirementextreme.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10658

https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/08/01/squareallworthy-on-ubi-plans/

https://www.futurithmic.com/2019/02/13/industry-4-0-could-create-millions-new-jobs/

John Galt incarnate!

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #618 on: January 17, 2021, 11:35:09 AM »
So if people aren't starving to death or freezing to death let's just strengthen that safety net and call it a day. Oh, and add universal healthcare and education in and then what's even the point of having a UBI?


I much prefer your proposal. I think it will  more effectively provide the rudiments of life to the poor.

There is no point of having UBI.  It makes no sense, we can't afford it, and it would only help people that don't need it while hurting the most needy by taking away their social safety net and taxing them higher in order to fund "free" cash bonuses going to more wealthy people. 


My understanding is that initially, the Libertarian argument  for UBI was based on elimination of the welfare state and its bureaucracy: UBI would be substituted for the welfare state.

   But according to Hoynes and Rothstein's findings, and other articles I've read, I conclude  that UBI would be an  addition to current welfare-state benefits so I agree with H. and R. that  “A truly universal UBI would be enormously expensive."






Re: Why did anyone ever think UBI would work?

« Reply #79 on: May 08, 2019, 10:43:11 AM »

As of now, in a word, I find UBI problematical.

VOX has an article on UBI that was posted on 2/3/19.

Hilary Hoynes and Jesse Rothstein analyzed issues of UBI. They  submitted some of their findings  to the National Bureau of Economic Research.

From the VOX piece, here are their statements and findings:

"There is a lack of clarity on what makes a UBI, what problem it is meant to solve, whether the social safety net can or is providing these benefits, and what (if anything) can be learned from the pilot programs that we don’t already know."

 “Our paper seeks to fill this gap.”

"Attention may be running ahead of actual policy development."

Speaking of the recent Finnish study of UBI, Rothstein said studies like it are  “meant to tell us whether a UBI is a good idea, but it’s not clear what results would lead to you saying, ‘Yes, it’s a good idea’ or, ‘No, it’s not a good idea.’"

“A truly universal UBI would be enormously expensive.”

“The kinds of UBIs often discussed would cost nearly double current total spending on the ‘big three’ programs (Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid).”

 “Moreover, each of these programs would likely be necessary even if a UBI were in place, as each addresses needs that would not be well served by a uniform cash transfer.”

 “A universal payment of $12,000 per year to each adult U.S. resident over age 18 would cost roughly $3 trillion per year."

 “This is about 75 percent of current total federal expenditures, including all on- and off-budget items, in 2017. (If those over 65 were excluded, the cost would fall by about one-fifth.) Thus, implementing this UBI without cuts to other programs would require nearly doubling federal tax revenue.”

“Replacing existing anti-poverty programs with a UBI would be highly regressive.”
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 11:42:56 AM by John Galt incarnate! »

TheContinentalOp

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #619 on: January 17, 2021, 03:04:36 PM »
You people are writing your answers in your quotes.

Anyway, this is just the same old "an UBI is not affordable". Which is wrong. We afford it today, as is visible by all the people not starving or freezing to death. Think in production not money.
The rest is purely a "how" question of distribution. Today we do it by paying salaries or dividends (as broad categories). With an UBI we might be doing it by paying the same sum in by UBI and by salaries. Or some other method of distribution.

So if people aren't starving to death or freezing to death let's just strengthen that safety net and call it a day. Oh, and add universal healthcare and education in and then what's even the point of having a UBI?

I understand we have posters from different nations here, but what first world country doesn't have universal education? Unless you are talking about post-secondary education, and in that case, I'd argue we need less people going to college not more.

TheContinentalOp

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #620 on: January 19, 2021, 04:19:51 AM »
It's come to this:

Karma Finance: Privately-Funded UBI Possible With Decentralized Finance, Says Creator of the First ICO

https://apnews.com/press-release/prodigy-news/technology-business-corporate-news-products-and-services-government-business-and-finance-66852603e24628f54cc40a6492e2d380

kite

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #621 on: January 19, 2021, 10:04:49 AM »
Plenty of passionate opinions in favor of UBI.   
Still, I venture that none of us really support Universal Basic Income, at least, not enough to commit to giving someone else $1000/month (or whatever) such that they could live without having to work.  Plenty of us are saving more than $1000/month, and we could, alternatively just give it away to one person, no strings attached.  And we don't.  Why don't we give either a random stranger or even our own, young adult children a $1000/month allowance (guaranteed, no strings attached)?  Because we learned from either life in general or "The Millionaire Next Door" that economic outpatient care makes your kids lazy af.  When we are giving our money away, we either put conditions on it or perform some kind of due diligence on the recipients. Don't we?  Aren't we looking at the evaluations of various non-profits before we write them a check? Aren't we directing money that we control to specific causes or projects that we determine are valuable?  We don't just turn it over and let someone else decide.  And yet, that's what UBI is.  Give the money to someone else and let them dictate how to spend it.  What could possibly go wrong?

HPstache

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #622 on: January 19, 2021, 12:30:08 PM »
Can we get some UBI passed already?!  I'd really like to tap into my tenant's UBI too by raising their rent a few hundred every month... I'll know they have it!

LennStar

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #623 on: January 19, 2021, 01:19:09 PM »
Because we learned from either life in general or "The Millionaire Next Door" that economic outpatient care makes your kids lazy af. 
You can't compare a basic living and a luxurious life.

The first one takes away the stress and bad things that makes being poor so very bad. The latter tells you "don't work or your money will go away". (Not to mention that oupatient care is only given to a small part of the population, which is also a huge difference.)

It's a bit like the jail system in the US and Northern Europe. If you treat them like animals, they behave like animals. If you treat them with dignity, most of them act with dignity.


MoseyingAlong

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #624 on: January 19, 2021, 04:00:40 PM »
Plenty of passionate opinions in favor of UBI.   
Still, I venture that none of us really support Universal Basic Income, at least, not enough to commit to giving someone else $1000/month (or whatever) such that they could live without having to work.  Plenty of us are saving more than $1000/month, and we could, alternatively just give it away to one person, no strings attached.  And we don't.  Why don't we give either a random stranger or even our own, young adult children a $1000/month allowance (guaranteed, no strings attached)?  Because we learned from either life in general or "The Millionaire Next Door" that economic outpatient care makes your kids lazy af.  When we are giving our money away, we either put conditions on it or perform some kind of due diligence on the recipients. Don't we?  Aren't we looking at the evaluations of various non-profits before we write them a check? Aren't we directing money that we control to specific causes or projects that we determine are valuable?  We don't just turn it over and let someone else decide.  And yet, that's what UBI is.  Give the money to someone else and let them dictate how to spend it.  What could possibly go wrong?

Edited: posted in wrong thread
« Last Edit: January 19, 2021, 06:36:36 PM by MoseyingAlong »

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #625 on: January 19, 2021, 05:47:22 PM »
Because we learned from either life in general or "The Millionaire Next Door" that economic outpatient care makes your kids lazy af. 
You can't compare a basic living and a luxurious life.

The first one takes away the stress and bad things that makes being poor so very bad. The latter tells you "don't work or your money will go away". (Not to mention that oupatient care is only given to a small part of the population, which is also a huge difference.)

It's a bit like the jail system in the US and Northern Europe. If you treat them like animals, they behave like animals. If you treat them with dignity, most of them act with dignity.

So what happens when someone spends the $1,000 a month (or whatever) on drugs on the first day a month? Do you let that person starve, or do you commit to that person the same safety net (and thus the same cost of resources) that we already have in place?

I'd love to have $1,000 a month in free money for drugs.

LennStar

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #626 on: January 20, 2021, 11:48:43 AM »
Because we learned from either life in general or "The Millionaire Next Door" that economic outpatient care makes your kids lazy af. 
You can't compare a basic living and a luxurious life.

The first one takes away the stress and bad things that makes being poor so very bad. The latter tells you "don't work or your money will go away". (Not to mention that oupatient care is only given to a small part of the population, which is also a huge difference.)

It's a bit like the jail system in the US and Northern Europe. If you treat them like animals, they behave like animals. If you treat them with dignity, most of them act with dignity.

So what happens when someone spends the $1,000 a month (or whatever) on drugs on the first day a month? Do you let that person starve, or do you commit to that person the same safety net (and thus the same cost of resources) that we already have in place?

I'd love to have $1,000 a month in free money for drugs.
Drug usage goes down with an UBI. (As go psychic, chronic and other very costly illnesses caused by people going to work when they shouldn't.)

And yes, of course you will still have medical help. It's there with or without UBI. In well organized states at least. So that medical system saves money, which pays in part for the UBI

Alternatepriorities

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #627 on: January 20, 2021, 12:01:28 PM »
Because we learned from either life in general or "The Millionaire Next Door" that economic outpatient care makes your kids lazy af. 
You can't compare a basic living and a luxurious life.

The first one takes away the stress and bad things that makes being poor so very bad. The latter tells you "don't work or your money will go away". (Not to mention that oupatient care is only given to a small part of the population, which is also a huge difference.)

It's a bit like the jail system in the US and Northern Europe. If you treat them like animals, they behave like animals. If you treat them with dignity, most of them act with dignity.

So what happens when someone spends the $1,000 a month (or whatever) on drugs on the first day a month? Do you let that person starve, or do you commit to that person the same safety net (and thus the same cost of resources) that we already have in place?

I'd love to have $1,000 a month in free money for drugs.
Drug usage goes down with an UBI. (As go psychic, chronic and other very costly illnesses caused by people going to work when they shouldn't.)

And yes, of course you will still have medical help. It's there with or without UBI. In well organized states at least. So that medical system saves money, which pays in part for the UBI
That's a pretty certain statement for something that has never been tried on state level scale.

HPstache

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #628 on: January 20, 2021, 12:04:02 PM »
Because we learned from either life in general or "The Millionaire Next Door" that economic outpatient care makes your kids lazy af. 
You can't compare a basic living and a luxurious life.

The first one takes away the stress and bad things that makes being poor so very bad. The latter tells you "don't work or your money will go away". (Not to mention that oupatient care is only given to a small part of the population, which is also a huge difference.)

It's a bit like the jail system in the US and Northern Europe. If you treat them like animals, they behave like animals. If you treat them with dignity, most of them act with dignity.

So what happens when someone spends the $1,000 a month (or whatever) on drugs on the first day a month? Do you let that person starve, or do you commit to that person the same safety net (and thus the same cost of resources) that we already have in place?

I'd love to have $1,000 a month in free money for drugs.
Drug usage goes down with an UBI. (As go psychic, chronic and other very costly illnesses caused by people going to work when they shouldn't.)


Would have to see it on a large scale to believe it.

Alternatepriorities

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #629 on: January 20, 2021, 12:07:43 PM »
There's another thread going on litter here: https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/off-topic/litter/?topicseen

I saw an ashtray dump in the parking lot at the grocery store last week.  It was definitely a "wow, I haven't seen that in a long time" moment.  Sadly, there was a trash can within a 100 ft.

I think my fundamental problem with UBI is that I have serious doubts that any amount of money is going to make life better for the kind of person who would rather dump their ashtray on the ground than walk 100 ft to the trash.

kite

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #630 on: January 20, 2021, 01:33:40 PM »
Because we learned from either life in general or "The Millionaire Next Door" that economic outpatient care makes your kids lazy af. 
You can't compare a basic living and a luxurious life.

The first one takes away the stress and bad things that makes being poor so very bad. The latter tells you "don't work or your money will go away". (Not to mention that oupatient care is only given to a small part of the population, which is also a huge difference.)

It's a bit like the jail system in the US and Northern Europe. If you treat them like animals, they behave like animals. If you treat them with dignity, most of them act with dignity.

So what happens when someone spends the $1,000 a month (or whatever) on drugs on the first day a month? Do you let that person starve, or do you commit to that person the same safety net (and thus the same cost of resources) that we already have in place?

I'd love to have $1,000 a month in free money for drugs.
Drug usage goes down with an UBI. (As go psychic, chronic and other very costly illnesses caused by people going to work when they shouldn't.)

And yes, of course you will still have medical help. It's there with or without UBI. In well organized states at least. So that medical system saves money, which pays in part for the UBI


Oh, does it?   
How have you been able to keep this kept secret?!!!!?!?!?!??! Who else knows???!!??  Why don't we give more money to people addicted to drugs so that they use less drugs?  Why have we been struggling with countless other methods and treatments for substance abuse when you knew the answer, all along?
And, surely, as a mustachian, you've given your money away to someone struggling with drugs, ammirite? 


I stand firmly behind my earlier comments.  Mustachians really don't endorse giving money away to other people to spend, not without putting conditions on how it should get spent and not without checking in after the fact to ensure it was spent wisely.  We even subject ourselves and our families to this scrutiny.  UBI is a catchy name, but as defined and as proposed, it is no substitute for need based or means based aid. It's a boondoggle. 

 

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #631 on: January 20, 2021, 05:54:55 PM »
Because we learned from either life in general or "The Millionaire Next Door" that economic outpatient care makes your kids lazy af. 
You can't compare a basic living and a luxurious life.

The first one takes away the stress and bad things that makes being poor so very bad. The latter tells you "don't work or your money will go away". (Not to mention that oupatient care is only given to a small part of the population, which is also a huge difference.)

It's a bit like the jail system in the US and Northern Europe. If you treat them like animals, they behave like animals. If you treat them with dignity, most of them act with dignity.

So what happens when someone spends the $1,000 a month (or whatever) on drugs on the first day a month? Do you let that person starve, or do you commit to that person the same safety net (and thus the same cost of resources) that we already have in place?

I'd love to have $1,000 a month in free money for drugs.
Drug usage goes down with an UBI. (As go psychic, chronic and other very costly illnesses caused by people going to work when they shouldn't.)

And yes, of course you will still have medical help. It's there with or without UBI. In well organized states at least. So that medical system saves money, which pays in part for the UBI

It's not just my drug money that the UBI has to pay for, or my medical expenses. What about my food and rent, and clothing, and everything else that UBI was meant to pay for but that I've now spent on drugs?

It doesn't have to be drugs either. It could be anything else I like. After all it's free money.

pdxmonkey

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #632 on: January 20, 2021, 11:37:38 PM »
Then it works better than the current system where you have to sell your food benefits for 50 cents on the dollar to a shady middleman to get your drugs, video games, whatever...

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #633 on: January 21, 2021, 03:40:29 AM »
Drug usage goes down with an UBI. (As go psychic, chronic and other very costly illnesses caused by people going to work when they shouldn't.)

And yes, of course you will still have medical help. It's there with or without UBI. In well organized states at least. So that medical system saves money, which pays in part for the UBI
That's a pretty certain statement for something that has never been tried on state level scale.

Quote
How have you been able to keep this kept secret?!!!!?!?!?!??! Who else knows???!!??  Why don't we give more money to people addicted to drugs so that they use less drugs?  Why have we been struggling with countless other methods and treatments for substance abuse when you knew the answer, all along?
I can't say if it would have much effect on people who are already addicted (though you could argue drug related crimes would go down).
The effect an UBI has is on the reasons why people start (abusing) drugs. It's a difference if you have a hopeless, miserable life or only a hard one.

It's very similar to the result of "divorces up, domestic violence down".

SotI

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #634 on: January 21, 2021, 04:15:20 AM »
The effect an UBI has is on the reasons why people start (abusing) drugs. It's a difference if you have a hopeless, miserable life or only a hard one.

From personal, anecdotal experience, I believe this is a rather simplistic view on drug abuse. I have closely lived with with various drug users (some addicts, not all). And "hopeless, miserable life" was no motivator, at all (although I agree that those will exist as well, ofc) - mental issues and/or "kick craving" actually were.

Available health care would be a better path to tackle this rather than UBI. 

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #635 on: January 22, 2021, 04:13:58 AM »
Since that post is a nice description, I quote it here:

I like doing things, solving mysteries, but I don't like the structure of work - the structure of 9-5 as others have said and the complete lack of flexibility of my time. I have very autonomous setup, no direct reports, report directly to a very senior person in the org, can do my duties in 2-3 hrs daily, and still, I really have the expectation of the 9-5 and only 2 weeks vacation. If I were a writer (and not need the income that much), or an independent scientist (like it was in the middle ages), or a private detective (like in the show Elementary) or an artists or some profession where i can set my own hours an am not a cog in the greater machinery of an organization, I would be happy to do "work." Being part of an organization is extremely limiting.

That is why I am here, I think, and for the financial security.

Of course not all people are like that, but many are, and that they are shackled is a loss to all people.

I shudder when thinking what Leonardo da Vinci could have done if he didn't had to spend half of his time working to earn money (though many of those works are great stuff too, of course).

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #636 on: January 22, 2021, 05:19:24 AM »
Since that post is a nice description, I quote it here:

I like doing things, solving mysteries, but I don't like the structure of work - the structure of 9-5 as others have said and the complete lack of flexibility of my time. I have very autonomous setup, no direct reports, report directly to a very senior person in the org, can do my duties in 2-3 hrs daily, and still, I really have the expectation of the 9-5 and only 2 weeks vacation. If I were a writer (and not need the income that much), or an independent scientist (like it was in the middle ages), or a private detective (like in the show Elementary) or an artists or some profession where i can set my own hours an am not a cog in the greater machinery of an organization, I would be happy to do "work." Being part of an organization is extremely limiting.

That is why I am here, I think, and for the financial security.

Of course not all people are like that, but many are, and that they are shackled is a loss to all people.

I shudder when thinking what Leonardo da Vinci could have done if he didn't had to spend half of his time working to earn money (though many of those works are great stuff too, of course).

Yeah, I kinda doubt that people working $10/hour jobs are gonna turn into Da Vincis when the shackles are released.

I mean look at the FIRE community. Bunch of bloody smart people but not exactly known for saving humanity in their spare time after fire-ing.

And it goes both ways. The lure of money can be a powerful attractant for better, more original, more creative work. Would Steve Jobs have planned the iPhone, or Jony Ives designed it, without the capitalist system?

Alternatepriorities

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #637 on: January 22, 2021, 09:51:47 AM »
Since that post is a nice description, I quote it here:

I like doing things, solving mysteries, but I don't like the structure of work - the structure of 9-5 as others have said and the complete lack of flexibility of my time. I have very autonomous setup, no direct reports, report directly to a very senior person in the org, can do my duties in 2-3 hrs daily, and still, I really have the expectation of the 9-5 and only 2 weeks vacation. If I were a writer (and not need the income that much), or an independent scientist (like it was in the middle ages), or a private detective (like in the show Elementary) or an artists or some profession where i can set my own hours an am not a cog in the greater machinery of an organization, I would be happy to do "work." Being part of an organization is extremely limiting.

That is why I am here, I think, and for the financial security.

Of course not all people are like that, but many are, and that they are shackled is a loss to all people.

I shudder when thinking what Leonardo da Vinci could have done if he didn't had to spend half of his time working to earn money (though many of those works are great stuff too, of course).

As much as many of us dislike being cogs in the system (myself included) we must recognize the wealth that system creates. I can toil for weeks on a project of personal interest and still not create a finished item as nice as a series of small industrial steps creates. Even the most artistic crafts depend on the industrial base to make them feasible. We need to be cogs for a portion of our lives to keep the machine running. The Mustachian difference is that we've learned that we can spend less time as a cog in exchange for consuming less. UBI is trying to do the opposite, allow people to spend less time as cogs while also consuming more. It seems likely to break the machine that creates the bounty that makes free time a possibility in the first place. Maybe if the robots really do make everything in the future it will be possible, but only if individuals can control their desire for ever more consumption. After all John Maynard Keynes' prediction of a 15 hour week would be excessive today if we were willing to live at 1930's standards of living.

kite

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #638 on: January 22, 2021, 02:03:40 PM »
https://harvardpolitics.com/against-ubi-in-america/

A concise, but balanced take on UBI. 
There is no moral argument for a program that ignores what we already know about poverty and proposes to reduce the benefit that some poor people are receiving right now to free up money for otherwise healthy, educated and able bodied people to give them the option of not working. 


dandarc

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #639 on: January 22, 2021, 02:11:55 PM »
So you don't end the other programs. And the alternative presented 'guaranteed minimum income' is just a UBI by another name with more complex rules to follow to get the money. "In a world with limited resources" when we're talking about the federal government and money.

Reads like "this might not be 100% perfect right out the gate so lets not even try". Not a very good article.

American GenX

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #640 on: January 22, 2021, 03:10:18 PM »
https://harvardpolitics.com/against-ubi-in-america/

A concise, but balanced take on UBI. 
There is no moral argument for a program that ignores what we already know about poverty and proposes to reduce the benefit that some poor people are receiving right now to free up money for otherwise healthy, educated and able bodied people to give them the option of not working.

Yeah, that's some of the same info I keep talking about and is covered in some of the links that I provided earlier.  I'll add it to my list.

I've yet to see a true UBI program proposal.   They never are based on helping those that really need the most help.  True UBI would give an amount to everyone with no reduction in social programs/assistance, pensions, and earned social security benefits.  It would simply give that same amount to every household, with no effect on other existing income/benefits/aid.   But the proposals I've read all take something away, increase taxes on everyone, and hand out money to wealthy people that don't need it.  It has to be one of the craziest ideas, just like proposals to give $15,000 to first time home buyers, paying off student loan debt with taxpayer money, stimulus checks being sent to people who don't need it, and increased unemployment supplements to people that make more sitting at home than working.  It's absurd.

The "guaranteed minimum income" mentioned in the article makes a lot more sense because it focuses on those that really need it rather than dishing out free money to the well to do.  But any amount would need to be minimal for the able-bodied so that they would not be given more disincentive to work.  And for older people who are past their working years, maybe ramp guaranteed income payments up, increase SS benefits, and provide additional assistance to cover medical needs.

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #641 on: January 22, 2021, 05:53:28 PM »
Let's be frank.

Proponents of a UBI simply want more welfare and redistribution of wealth/income.

They say a UBI will be cost neutral - I've yet to see any proposal which would truly be cost neutral. Because even if you can strip out the bureaucracy and find massive costs savings there, the UBI proposal has to account for:
- The jobs lost at the bureaucracy
- The extra money / bureaucratic instruments that will magically appear to help those who immediately waste their UBI as soon as they get it
- inflation that occurs when people decide their time is worth more than before*

*Unless a UBI does not change buying/spending habits at all - in which case it would have literally no effect and be pointless - there will, by definition, be a degree of inflation. Why would people who have a "better life" still work menial jobs? They wouldn't. And that leads to inflation

Any of the three things that I mentioned above are serious obstacles to a UBI, not in theory, but in practice.

UBI proponents really just want a redistribution of resources but they don't want to call for the most practical way to implement it (tax hikes) because they know it's deeply unpopular.

LennStar

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #642 on: January 23, 2021, 09:01:01 AM »
Let's be frank.

Proponents of a UBI simply want more welfare and redistribution of wealth/income.
Yes. That's what all other stuff mentioned here is about, too. Practically every political decision is about the distribution of wealth.

Quote
They say a UBI will be cost neutral -
No.
The distribution is a money saver compared to current systems, but not the UBI itself - as you have said yourself in the first quote.


btw. regarding the inflation topic:
If some do not do the cleaning work now, and instead the people causing that work clean themselves, it would be a deflation. You look way too one sided at it.

Would a certain part of jobs become more expensive? Certainly yes. Putting aside if that is offset by the UBI, that is not a bad thing in itself. It is simply a different redistribution of wealth - from capital income to work income, from the tendency.
Also some jobs could or are even likely to become cheaper.


But in the end, how it will work out nobody can say for sure before, as it was when slavery ended, which would make it impossible to $insert what you want

Kyle Schuant

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #643 on: January 25, 2021, 01:38:28 AM »
Why don't we give either a random stranger or even our own, young adult children a $1000/month allowance (guaranteed, no strings attached)?
I do, in the form of the GiveDirectly charity. But it's not all to one individual.

https://effectivealtruism.org.au/givedirectly-and-the-largest-universal-basic-income-trial-in-history/

Most people don't because they're used to the government handling everything. I'd rather cut out the useless middlemen, where possible.

TheContinentalOp

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #644 on: January 28, 2021, 08:35:12 AM »
What Andrew Yang’s UBI Proposal Would Mean for NYC

Yang popularized universal basic income during his presidential run. Now he’s bringing new attention to cash relief in his campaign for New York City mayor.


Quote
By traditional metrics, Andrew Yang’s 2020 presidential bid ended in defeat. But the political newcomer’s legacy endures, as his campaign centerpiece, universal basic income, slowly becomes more mainstream in cities across the country.

Now, as Yang embarks on a new campaign for mayor of New York City, he’s again made cash relief a pillar of his platform. It’s unclear yet how Yang will fare against an early slate of nearly three dozen candidates — thus far, he’s garnered criticism for wrongly identifying a bodega, and for comments viewed as out of touch with regular New Yorkers. But as during his national run, he’s bringing serious policy attention to the concept of giving residents recurring cash payments, no strings attached.

This time, he’s talking less about the threat of automation to America’s jobs, and more about the economic devastation wrought locally by the coronavirus. Yang’s New York City proposal is not nearly as expansive as the “Freedom Dividend” of $1,000 a month for all American adults he pitched as a presidential hopeful. And it would not be “universal,” instead targeting half a million of New York City’s lowest-income residents. Recipients would receive an average of $2,000 annually, depending on income, costing the city $1 billion a year, with the potential for expansion through private funding.

“Most everyone knows that if I had my way, we’d all be getting $1,000 a month from the federal government,” Yang told Bloomberg CityLab. “I’m thrilled to make it happen in the biggest, greatest city in the country.”


The rest here:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-28/what-s-in-andrew-yang-s-ubi-proposal-for-nyc

LennStar

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #645 on: January 29, 2021, 03:48:25 AM »
What's a regular New Yorker?
Those bankers who complained you can't life on half a million per year after their bonuses got halfed in 2008?

Bloop Bloop Reloaded

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #646 on: January 29, 2021, 04:02:14 AM »
Half a million a year doesn't sound like a lot of money for an investment banker's lifestyle.

kite

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #647 on: January 29, 2021, 08:48:11 AM »
What Andrew Yang’s UBI Proposal Would Mean for NYC

Yang popularized universal basic income during his presidential run. Now he’s bringing new attention to cash relief in his campaign for New York City mayor.


Quote
By traditional metrics, Andrew Yang’s 2020 presidential bid ended in defeat. But the political newcomer’s legacy endures, as his campaign centerpiece, universal basic income, slowly becomes more mainstream in cities across the country.

Now, as Yang embarks on a new campaign for mayor of New York City, he’s again made cash relief a pillar of his platform. It’s unclear yet how Yang will fare against an early slate of nearly three dozen candidates — thus far, he’s garnered criticism for wrongly identifying a bodega, and for comments viewed as out of touch with regular New Yorkers. But as during his national run, he’s bringing serious policy attention to the concept of giving residents recurring cash payments, no strings attached.

This time, he’s talking less about the threat of automation to America’s jobs, and more about the economic devastation wrought locally by the coronavirus. Yang’s New York City proposal is not nearly as expansive as the “Freedom Dividend” of $1,000 a month for all American adults he pitched as a presidential hopeful. And it would not be “universal,” instead targeting half a million of New York City’s lowest-income residents. Recipients would receive an average of $2,000 annually, depending on income, costing the city $1 billion a year, with the potential for expansion through private funding.

“Most everyone knows that if I had my way, we’d all be getting $1,000 a month from the federal government,” Yang told Bloomberg CityLab. “I’m thrilled to make it happen in the biggest, greatest city in the country.”


The rest here:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-28/what-s-in-andrew-yang-s-ubi-proposal-for-nyc

Running on a platform of "Bigger welfare checks for poor people" isn't a big vote getter.  But call it UBI, despite it being neither Universal nor Basic Income, people will get hopped up on the idea.....maybe.  Remains to be seen. 

AccrualWorld

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #648 on: January 29, 2021, 11:33:37 AM »
What Andrew Yang’s UBI Proposal Would Mean for NYC

Yang popularized universal basic income during his presidential run. Now he’s bringing new attention to cash relief in his campaign for New York City mayor.


Quote
By traditional metrics, Andrew Yang’s 2020 presidential bid ended in defeat. But the political newcomer’s legacy endures, as his campaign centerpiece, universal basic income, slowly becomes more mainstream in cities across the country.

Now, as Yang embarks on a new campaign for mayor of New York City, he’s again made cash relief a pillar of his platform. It’s unclear yet how Yang will fare against an early slate of nearly three dozen candidates — thus far, he’s garnered criticism for wrongly identifying a bodega, and for comments viewed as out of touch with regular New Yorkers. But as during his national run, he’s bringing serious policy attention to the concept of giving residents recurring cash payments, no strings attached.

This time, he’s talking less about the threat of automation to America’s jobs, and more about the economic devastation wrought locally by the coronavirus. Yang’s New York City proposal is not nearly as expansive as the “Freedom Dividend” of $1,000 a month for all American adults he pitched as a presidential hopeful. And it would not be “universal,” instead targeting half a million of New York City’s lowest-income residents. Recipients would receive an average of $2,000 annually, depending on income, costing the city $1 billion a year, with the potential for expansion through private funding.

“Most everyone knows that if I had my way, we’d all be getting $1,000 a month from the federal government,” Yang told Bloomberg CityLab. “I’m thrilled to make it happen in the biggest, greatest city in the country.”


The rest here:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-28/what-s-in-andrew-yang-s-ubi-proposal-for-nyc

Disappointing, this is really welfare dressed up as UBI

effigy98

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Re: Do mustachians support universal basic income?
« Reply #649 on: February 07, 2021, 07:54:47 PM »
I cannot wait to get layed off and collect free money. I refuse to work only to have it transferred to others in a disregard for the value of my time and effort. This will be a massive gift for those of us RE. I want to be on the winning side which is to no longer make income from a job.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2021, 08:00:49 PM by effigy98 »