Author Topic: Do I need life insurance?  (Read 1883 times)

surpasspro

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Do I need life insurance?
« on: September 16, 2022, 02:41:07 PM »
I'm not sure if I need life insurance. Here is my background.  I'm married with a 1 year old and another on the way.  I'll be 50 next year, I have a paid off home and right now the sole bread winner.  I have a decent amount in the bank and for retirement.

I do get some life insurance through my job as follows: "Basic Life and AD&D with $130k payout" for free and "Supplemental AD&D with $130k payout" for $25 a year and "spouse life" with a flat $25k amount for another $25 per year.

Do I need any life insurance and if so what kind?  Thanks in advance


Metalcat

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2022, 02:53:44 PM »
Nowhere near enough info to be able to say.

But simply put, if you have a kid, is there enough for that kid if you get hit by a bus at any point?

Unless you have a super rich sibling who loves your kid like their own and is perfectly happy to divert a couple hundred thousand to raising them, then WTF happens to your kid??

ChickenStash

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2022, 02:59:48 PM »
Just some off-hand questions...

What do you (and your spouse) want the financial state of the family to look like if you pass?
Is the expectation that your spouse gets a job and, if so, is it reasonable that the job pays for the desired lifestyle along with things like child care (single parent, now) or educational expenses?
Are there other assets to draw from to cover expenses in the interim?

surpasspro

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2022, 03:02:56 PM »
I believe between the work payouts and $500k in my brokerage account there would be enough to raise 2 kids until 18.  I'm figuring it would cost $250k to raise a child to 18.  That would deplete that account (not factoring in retirement accounts).  I guess I could look into a 20 year term life policy and that should cover me for that time frame. 

patchyfacialhair

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2022, 03:16:53 PM »
Kids get survivor benefits too from Social Security. It's not insignificant if you've worked enough while contributing to social security (40 quarters of contributions i think). Figure that out on the social security website to see how much the kids would get. Your spouse may be eligible for benefits as well.

What about your spouse? If they pass, even though you're the sole breadwinner, the value of their contributions isn't zero. You might need to pay more for daycare, household help, etc. Do you have life insurance on them?

Term insurance is pretty cheap...if you're healthy. But honestly you might be ok. Just imagine if the paychecks stopped what would happen and make your decision from there.

Villanelle

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2022, 03:36:51 PM »
I believe between the work payouts and $500k in my brokerage account there would be enough to raise 2 kids until 18.  I'm figuring it would cost $250k to raise a child to 18.  That would deplete that account (not factoring in retirement accounts).  I guess I could look into a 20 year term life policy and that should cover me for that time frame.

What happens after the kids turn 18.  It sounds like your plan would including spending down your entire savings and not contributing any more to it.  So when the kids turn 18, they have no additional support (which is fine for some people's plans, but make sure it's what you actually want for your kids).  And your spouse has $0 to her name. 

Survivor social security would help somewhat, but you'd still be leaving your kids and spouse in a pretty crap situation, IMO.   And your spouse will likely need to go find a job, though probably making far, far less than you make now.  That means her expenses will increase as she has to pay for things like daycare. 

And if your spouse dies, think of all the things they are currently doing that you'd have to find a way to cover, while also grieving and dealing with kids who are likely to be very high-needs after the death of a parent.  You won't be able to take time off to grieve, so a few weeks or less after the death, you are probably back to work. You'll have to pay for day care and likely before/after/late care.  Where does that money come from?  Are you going to be up for doing 100% of your employment, plus shopping, meal planning, tracking doctor's appointments, shopping for birthday parties, driving to and from baseball or ballet or karate, and all the other things your spouse does or will do?  Or are you going to need to outsource some things so you can get the basics covered?  Perhaps hiring a weekly housekeeper, paying for daycare, hiring a lawn service, and paying a parent of a kid in your kids' activities to do some of the driving?  That's $25k policy would likely be gone in less than a year, unless you have solid reason to believe that grandparents would move in with you (and you want that life) or similar. 

In your shoes,  I would want far more insurance than what your work offers.  Term insurance is cheap, so I'd likely get policies for both you and your spouse, to last at least until both kids are about 22 (assuming they go to college or otherwise take a few years to launch and that you want to be able to help support, at least somewhat during that time; a minimum would be until they are 18).  How much depends on things like your current expenses, how much family support you might reasonably expect if one of you dies, etc.  But as a ballpark figure, I'd probably want at least $300k each.

This is such an individual question, and you provided very little information so you aren't going to get any good, specific answers.  But my answer is "waay more than those tiny work policies". 

A friend of mine died with 2 younger kids (7 and 10).  Her husband didn't want to go back to work the week after she was buried, or the month after she was buried.  The kids needed mental health care.  He got a lot of support from both sets of parents as far as child-minding, but expenses still went up, and that was despite them being a 2 income household.  Of course, that means their income decreased significantly as well.  Eventually, it was clear they needed to move for a clean slate for all, so add buying and selling a home.  And all of that with a backdrop of grief and confusion and anger.  Thankfully, she had a large policy that helped erase at least one component of The Suck. 


ericrugiero

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2022, 09:14:34 PM »
In a very similar situation I purchased $500K on me as the primary breadwinner and $300K on my stay at home wife. Now a few years later I’m probably over insured but it’s pretty cheap so why not? 

I agree with others, get at least another $300-500K on each of you. You are a bit older so maybe check whether a shorter term is cheaper. By the time 10 years is up, you shouldn’t need as much coverage.

lifeisshort123

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2022, 06:16:26 AM »
All things equal, don’t count on the work policies.

If you end up having to leave work for some reason, the policies go away, and now you are uninsured, and if you had to leave due to health, very probably uninsurable.

They are nice “additional” policies, but not nearly enough on their own because of the amounts being too low, and the risks of cancellation too high.

I’d get a 20 year term policy.  2 kids you’ll probably want about 10-12x your earnings during that time.  Your wife should also have term life to cover the expense of being a homemaker if she passes and you need to hire an au pair, nanny, etc.

JupiterGreen

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2022, 02:24:12 PM »
All things equal, don’t count on the work policies.

If you end up having to leave work for some reason, the policies go away, and now you are uninsured, and if you had to leave due to health, very probably uninsurable.

They are nice “additional” policies, but not nearly enough on their own because of the amounts being too low, and the risks of cancellation too high.

I’d get a 20 year term policy.  2 kids you’ll probably want about 10-12x your earnings during that time.  Your wife should also have term life to cover the expense of being a homemaker if she passes and you need to hire an au pair, nanny, etc.

This is a good plan.

OP you mentioned having enough coverage now for both kids until they turn 18. I'm surprised how some parents look at their obligations as an 18 year timeline. The fact is, none of us consented to be born it was our parent's choice. I understand it is not required, but I appreciate the mindfulness parents use when they offer some transitional financial support to their young adults (help with college or similar). And what about your spouse? Are they forgoing a career to be a SAHP or providing some other family support/service? If so, they are losing earning potential right now so you really should be accounting for them as well. Depending on the amount of time they are out of the workforce they may have limited employment opportunities should you unexpectedly pass and childcare may need to be covered as well. And what about your spouse's retirement? If they are a SAHP, they are working really hard right now for the family. If you die before your spouse, they might be eligible for SS survivor benefits but do they have any/enough of their own SS even with survivors benefits? I'm assuming the SAHP is not paying into SS currently.

Bottom line: It doesn't hurt to be generous and a little over prepare as far as insurance goes. Based on the info you provided, I think you are underinsured. And as @lifeisshort123 mentioned, don't count on work policies. Buy proper coverage for you and your partner so that the survivors current yearly budget can be covered for a decade (or even the survivors' lifetime --depending on timing). The exact amount your family needs will depend on a number of factors that have been mentioned. Discuss this with your spouse, consider your budget, future costs, and all the other variables to arrive at a fair number for your family if one (or both) of the parents unexpectedly pass.

snic

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2022, 09:36:29 PM »
The rule of thumb I heard was to have life insurance worth 10x your annual income. That way, your spouse and kids will basically have 10 years to live with roughly the same income you would have provided then - actually a bit more because as a dead person you'd have no expenses. Of course everyone's situation is different - e.g., if you have very young children you might want a larger policy; or if your spouse's income is far greater than yours, it might makes sense to get a policy only for your spouse and not you; etc etc etc. And of course as you get older and your income goes up, new life insurance policies get more expensive due to age and the likelihood of having health problems that would increase the premium. So if you're young and healthy, have a family, and can afford it, it might be a good idea to over-insure, and do it with very long (20 or 30 year fixed rate) policies.

In the OP's case, hitting 50 with a spouse with little/no income, and a 1 year old, premiums are going to be far more expensive than a similar policy for someone who is 30, so it may make sense to simply let your retirement savings be your life insurance policy. But that really depends on whether your spouse is likely to be able to find decent work if you die, because otherwise they are not going to have a retirement nest egg of their own. If that's something you're worried about, then life insurance makes sense even if it's pricey.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2022, 09:42:02 PM by snic »

Dicey

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2022, 02:01:51 AM »
When I needed it for a business deal, I found WAEPA for incredibly cheap term life insurance. If you're a veteran or the child of one, it's worth checking them out.

Zamboni

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2022, 02:10:56 AM »
Short answer: Yes, get a 20 year term life policy of at least $500K in addition to what you already have, and also get a policy for your spouse while you are going through the process.

I've sadly seen catastrophes first-hand. As others have pointed out, sometimes one of the streams doesn't end up paying out the way the deceased thought.

Don't be that guy who didn't leave a back up plan.

PDXTabs

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2022, 03:16:51 AM »
Kids get survivor benefits too from Social Security. It's not insignificant if you've worked enough while contributing to social security (40 quarters of contributions i think). Figure that out on the social security website to see how much the kids would get. Your spouse may be eligible for benefits as well.

Yup. I have some life insurance for my kids but if I were to have died the SS survivorship would have actually meant more money for them than what they were getting from me. But it would have stopped at 18 or 19 where as I plan to keep them on my life insurance longer than that.

But I would keep some life insurance around for your spouse, even if just $100k or so for their peace of mind if you pass.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2022, 03:18:50 AM by PDXTabs »

Villanelle

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2022, 09:12:37 AM »
The rule of thumb I heard was to have life insurance worth 10x your annual income. That way, your spouse and kids will basically have 10 years to live with roughly the same income you would have provided then - actually a bit more because as a dead person you'd have no expenses. Of course everyone's situation is different - e.g., if you have very young children you might want a larger policy; or if your spouse's income is far greater than yours, it might makes sense to get a policy only for your spouse and not you; etc etc etc. And of course as you get older and your income goes up, new life insurance policies get more expensive due to age and the likelihood of having health problems that would increase the premium. So if you're young and healthy, have a family, and can afford it, it might be a good idea to over-insure, and do it with very long (20 or 30 year fixed rate) policies.

In the OP's case, hitting 50 with a spouse with little/no income, and a 1 year old, premiums are going to be far more expensive than a similar policy for someone who is 30, so it may make sense to simply let your retirement savings be your life insurance policy. But that really depends on whether your spouse is likely to be able to find decent work if you die, because otherwise they are not going to have a retirement nest egg of their own. If that's something you're worried about, then life insurance makes sense even if it's pricey.

I think it would actually be less than 10 years, and perhaps significantly so.  (That's assuming the taxes are basically a wash, and maybe they wouldn't be.)   With one parent gone, items that were likely handled in-house are almost certainly going to be outsources.  Day care, babysitting, housekeeping, meal prep (even it that just means buying more  prepared or semi-prepared foods at the grocery store and less cooking from scratch), grocery delivery, etc.  I don't think the 10x is a bad benchmark, but don't expect expenses to go down--and assume they may go up significantly.  Some of that may be covered by SS though.

As far as the second bolded, again, even if the one who dies is a SAHP, expenses are likely to go up significantly, and people often, IMO, underinsure for that.  They think there is no lost income, or little lost income, so have no or little insurance.  But that doesn't account for all the stuff that was done by a team and now has to be done by 1 person or hired out. 

And that doesn't take into account the fact that after just losing your spouse and the parent of your children, you may want to take some time off work.


Turtle

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2022, 09:55:14 AM »
I'm not sure if I need life insurance. Here is my background.  I'm married with a 1 year old and another on the way.  I'll be 50 next year, I have a paid off home and right now the sole bread winner.  I have a decent amount in the bank and for retirement.

I do get some life insurance through my job as follows: "Basic Life and AD&D with $130k payout" for free and "Supplemental AD&D with $130k payout" for $25 a year and "spouse life" with a flat $25k amount for another $25 per year.

Do I need any life insurance and if so what kind?  Thanks in advance

AD&D will not cover terminal illnesses.  Worst case scenario here isn't that you get hit by a bus; it's that you are struck with a lengthy and expensive terminal illness and you pass away AFTER your company benefits expire. 

$25K total is a drop in the bucket compared with what your expenses for child care would be if something happened to your spouse while your children were too young to look after themselves.  A 20 year term policy for her would also be a good idea.

With your house being paid off, you won't need as much as you might otherwise.  You said you've got some money already put away for investments/retirement.  You may want to figure how much more money is needed to reach the family FIRE number and take that into account when deciding how much insurance to get for both you and your spouse.

The time to get term insurance is now.  Prices go up when you turn 50

snic

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2022, 10:32:48 AM »
The rule of thumb I heard was to have life insurance worth 10x your annual income. That way, your spouse and kids will basically have 10 years to live with roughly the same income you would have provided then - actually a bit more because as a dead person you'd have no expenses. Of course everyone's situation is different - e.g., if you have very young children you might want a larger policy; or if your spouse's income is far greater than yours, it might makes sense to get a policy only for your spouse and not you; etc etc etc. And of course as you get older and your income goes up, new life insurance policies get more expensive due to age and the likelihood of having health problems that would increase the premium. So if you're young and healthy, have a family, and can afford it, it might be a good idea to over-insure, and do it with very long (20 or 30 year fixed rate) policies.

In the OP's case, hitting 50 with a spouse with little/no income, and a 1 year old, premiums are going to be far more expensive than a similar policy for someone who is 30, so it may make sense to simply let your retirement savings be your life insurance policy. But that really depends on whether your spouse is likely to be able to find decent work if you die, because otherwise they are not going to have a retirement nest egg of their own. If that's something you're worried about, then life insurance makes sense even if it's pricey.

I think it would actually be less than 10 years, and perhaps significantly so.  (That's assuming the taxes are basically a wash, and maybe they wouldn't be.)   With one parent gone, items that were likely handled in-house are almost certainly going to be outsources.  Day care, babysitting, housekeeping, meal prep (even it that just means buying more  prepared or semi-prepared foods at the grocery store and less cooking from scratch), grocery delivery, etc.  I don't think the 10x is a bad benchmark, but don't expect expenses to go down--and assume they may go up significantly.  Some of that may be covered by SS though.

As far as the second bolded, again, even if the one who dies is a SAHP, expenses are likely to go up significantly, and people often, IMO, underinsure for that.  They think there is no lost income, or little lost income, so have no or little insurance.  But that doesn't account for all the stuff that was done by a team and now has to be done by 1 person or hired out. 

And that doesn't take into account the fact that after just losing your spouse and the parent of your children, you may want to take some time off work.

Really good points. I only add that life insurance benefit payments are not taxable as income (one of the few forms of gain that Uncle Sam doesn't want a piece of).

mizzourah2006

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2022, 11:02:05 AM »
We have 2 young kids and I purchased 1 million on a 15 year term policy for me and 500k on a 15 year term policy for my wife. I figured if I pass that amount will allow my wife to stop working (that + our investments/retirement accounts) and if she passes that amount will cover keeping a nanny or something around until the kids are teenagers.

LiveLean

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2022, 12:15:07 PM »
Hell, yes, you need life insurance. Forget the company life insurance. It's inadequate and chances are you'll be working elsewhere in a few years.

You're starting late as a father. Nothing wrong with that but unless your net worth already is in the low-mid 7 figures, you need life insurance. Heck, even if that is your net worth, term policies are historically inexpensive and you've got at least two college educations to fund. Hopefully you'll be around at 68-73 when they're in college, but give your wife some guarantee that it's covered.

My mom never saw the need for life insurance and she died at 51 after a quick bout with cancer. Dad, who had life insurance, often said that he was just fine -- from a financial standpoint, anyway -- without her having a policy, but an extra $250K or $500K (this was in 1991), would have made things easier.

Get a term policy today.

jinga nation

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2022, 06:07:16 PM »
assuming OP is in the USA, https://www.term4sale.com/ for your term life insurance quotes.
See company ratings https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/insurance/best-term-life-insurance

Arbitrage

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2022, 06:11:09 PM »
I would be cautious with any rules of thumb - they aren't intended, and oftentimes flat out don't work for the FIRE community.  For instance, life insurance is typically thought of as "income replacement," but if your spending - projected forward with kids - is only 1/3 of your income, why would you have the same insurance requirement as someone who makes the same amount but spends 3 times as much?  Answer - you don't. 

From what you've told us, which isn't much, I agree that you should have a term life policy outside of work, but I don't think you should be ponying up for a 20-year policy starting at 50 - that's bound to be VERY expensive as far as term life goes.  I'd rather be looking at policies that expire around the time I expect to be FI, considering other variables such as current savings, spending level, social security (both survivor and old age), how much your family's costs will change if you die, etc.

What is your spending like?  Are you MMM-level or close, spending sub-$40k since you have a paid off house?  If your spending is around that level, social security survivor benefits alone may cover nearly 100% of your family's expenses until they hit college.  What's your stash size - are you close to FI? 

I cancelled my term life once I got reasonably close to FI.  With our low expenses, SS Survivor's benefit would more than make up the difference, especially now that I'm only working part-time and plan to RE in the fairly near future.

surpasspro

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2022, 11:01:48 AM »
I did check my Social Security benefits.  If I were to pass my child benefits at $2,338 per month as well as my wife.  So that is close to $4,700 per month total just in SS survivor benefits.  I did get some life insurance quotes for 20 year term life with a $500k payout.  Around $65 a month, although still going through the underwriting process to see the final number. 

Zamboni

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2022, 04:39:17 PM »
^Great job looking into it.

I'm sure people have different ideas about it, but in my mind $65 a month is worth the peace of mind. I am about your age and paying $86 for $1.4MM benefit, but I got the bulk of that coverage when I was in my mid-30's (a cheaper age for buying, but it will expire before I am "old age").

Look at it this way: best case scenario is it never pays out because you live a long and prosperous life. If my $86 a month premium is never recovered by my own family because I outlive the term, and instead it ends up funding the payout of the random widower who loses his young wife to cancer or an accident, then I'm totally fine with that. In fact, I feel good about it.

Unfortunately I know people who have died unexpectedly quite young with young families and inadequate insurance planning. It is not a pretty picture for their family. Relying on government assistance stinks, the laws can change, there are delays, the paperwork is such a hassle some people don't have bandwidth to even get the assistance, etc.

calimom

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2022, 08:04:20 PM »
^Great job looking into it.

I'm sure people have different ideas about it, but in my mind $65 a month is worth the peace of mind. I am about your age and paying $86 for $1.4MM benefit, but I got the bulk of that coverage when I was in my mid-30's (a cheaper age for buying, but it will expire before I am "old age").

Look at it this way: best case scenario is it never pays out because you live a long and prosperous life. If my $86 a month premium is never recovered by my own family because I outlive the term, and instead it ends up funding the payout of the random widower who loses his young wife to cancer or an accident, then I'm totally fine with that. In fact, I feel good about it.

Unfortunately I know people who have died unexpectedly quite young with young families and inadequate insurance planning. It is not a pretty picture for their family. Relying on government assistance stinks, the laws can change, there are delays, the paperwork is such a hassle some people don't have bandwidth to even get the assistance, etc.

OP, I'm happy you've looked into SS benefits and are taking steps for coverage.

My healthy 37 year old husband was killed by a drunk driver on his way home from work one day. He had a policy through his work that equalled one year of salary, as well as a small separate payout from another carrier. We fortunately had uninsured motorist coverage with our car insurance which had a death benefit. I have three kids, the youngest was a year old. While not a greedy or spendthrift-y person, more insurance would have been very helpful, or having a paid-for house. Social Security has been solid addition to our income, but has never covered all the things my growing kids have needed: orthodontia, therapy, and so forth. College for the older two has been a patchwork of scholarships, financial aid, family contributions, and my cashflow. And there's one more to go after #2 finishes in 2 years. I don't mind hard work; I've become educated about money and investments. We've had a nice and successful family life, but things would be easier with more of a buffer.

Please call your agent tomorrow. As @Zamboni more or less says, life insurance is one of those things you pay for but hopefully never need. I like Pete, but some of his MMM proclamations (like not buying insurance) are not practical for most of us.

surpasspro

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2022, 08:35:01 AM »


OP, I'm happy you've looked into SS benefits and are taking steps for coverage.

My healthy 37 year old husband was killed by a drunk driver on his way home from work one day.
[/quote]

I'm sorry for your loss, I'm sure that was a shock and horrible to go through.  I guess we never know what will happen.  I'm in the process of getting the life insurance.  Thanks

snic

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2022, 11:17:16 AM »
Looks like calimom's story did the trick.

After you buy the policy, make sure your spouse *knows about it* and *knows where it is*. My wife is very hands-off with anything financial, so I periodically remind her where I keep important documents like life insurance policies.

Finally, my condolences to calimom. That's in fact exactly what I worry about and the low cost of term life insurance made is an obvious choice as soon as we started a family.

calimom

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Re: Do I need life insurance?
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2022, 07:28:38 PM »
Looks like calimom's story did the trick.

After you buy the policy, make sure your spouse *knows about it* and *knows where it is*. My wife is very hands-off with anything financial, so I periodically remind her where I keep important documents like life insurance policies.

Finally, my condolences to calimom. That's in fact exactly what I worry about and the low cost of term life insurance made is an obvious choice as soon as we started a family.

Thank you for your kind words @snic It's been a number of years, and I've adapted and done pretty well with my small business and investing in rentals. My primary residence will be paid off as my youngest graduates high school. We never know what life if going to fling at us. The best any of us can do is hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

And I'm glad you're getting insurance @surpasspro. May you live a long and healthy life.

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!