Author Topic: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)  (Read 135584 times)

soccerluvof4

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2014, 07:46:25 AM »
If worried and untrustworthy thats a problem in itself. I have know many people that go get a safety deposit box and everyweek dump cash money in there just in case. When i ask them what if your marriage is great they all have the same answer. I have been saving for years for something special. Most of these people arent worried about cash drag and I have to admit they convinced me to do it for awhile. But i stopped doing it and slowly put the money back into accounts. I was married and had a shotgun wedding/child. Just sold a business and had to pay 3300$ a month in child support. X went and built a house and her new husband hung himself.  Some tough times and I never thought I would marry again. 4 kids and 18 years later if things were to go bad which i doubt i am calloused enough now I dont think it would beat me down like the first time but i dont want to find out either. Get a strong pre-nup which mine now is useless. But not a situation that should wreck anyone. Tough yes but survivable! and sometimes like in my case better off.

b4u2

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2014, 07:54:47 AM »
I have been divorced once and yeah financially it sucks. Mine was 7-8 years ago and I am still paying off some of the debt I got stuck with plus extremely high child support. I suck it up and pay it but I can't wait till that (child support) is gone. Love my kids but no way it would cost me this much to raise them myself.

Insanity

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2014, 08:12:31 AM »
I'm 19 but I'll try to explain my take on this as best as possible.

I want to be dead sure of who I'm going to be with for life. I want us to have a very similar outlook on life. I currently look for "marriage material" as much as possible. I don't think I'm going to tell my wife spouse about my finances until we are married. That's probably a bit of an exaggeration. But I'm not going to go around in the early stages telling my finances because it's just a way to marry for the wrong reason. My personal finances should be independent of how we mesh.

If any of that made sense...

Doesn't matter.  No matter how hard you try.. The "right one" today, maybe the "wrong one" tomorrow or two years from now or 10 years from now.

My wife and I had a great dating relationship.  We had our issues, and looking back on it, some of those issues probably would have indicated there would be trouble in the marriage but they seemed to be minor at the time.  Now, those differences have added up (one probably was a bigger clue that I didn't pick up on -  we were supposed to go away for a weekend, I had to work the night before due to a software release.  The release went bad and I felt I had to stay to help out - she made it a "work is more important than me" even though I was back only 2 hours after we were supposed to leave -- I was the senior member of the team and felt like if my team was going to be there, so should I).  She threatened to leave, I had actually told her to, but she didn't.  I kind of felt like it was a test (like I said - things I should have picked up on that might cause trouble later on).

As far as net worth - sometimes people do bring more to the table, not everything is 50/50 no matter how you would like to believe it.  I'm not saying that is in all cases, and I'm not even saying that is the person with the greater earned income which contributes the greater amount.  Generally when you start thinking about divorce it is a mine vs theirs.




MrFancypants

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2014, 08:33:01 AM »
I'm 19 but I'll try to explain my take on this as best as possible.

I want to be dead sure of who I'm going to be with for life. I want us to have a very similar outlook on life. I currently look for "marriage material" as much as possible. I don't think I'm going to tell my wife spouse about my finances until we are married. That's probably a bit of an exaggeration. But I'm not going to go around in the early stages telling my finances because it's just a way to marry for the wrong reason. My personal finances should be independent of how we mesh.

If any of that made sense...

This is all fine, but I would still encourage you to be as open and honest as possible.  Through the course of a relationship, as it develops, there are periods of time where it's appropriate to feed just a little more of "who you are" to the person you're with, because you don't just lay out all out on the table on the first date unless you want that person to run for the hills.

At your age in your position the two pieces of advice I could give (potentially not related to finances) are...

1.  strive to grow together with the person you choose; because if you grow apart it likely will not end well.  This does not mean that you should be all up in each other's business 100% of the time, but your core values should develop similarly

2.  make it your mission in life to make your partner smile, and seek out a person who will do the same for you.  Because if the two of you are happy, you will surely have a successful marriage.

3.  (bonus) never force it.  If something doesn't feel right about a person prior to marrying them, follow your instinct.

BPA

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2014, 08:39:17 AM »
A marriage is a partnership, so your ex did not take half your net worth. She took her fair share of a combined net worth.

After ten years you still sound bitter.

I'm doing very well 13 years after.  So is my ex.  And so is his wife.  It was hard soon after, but we are all doing well.

Best yet, my kids will never hear me talk about their father with the same attitude you have about your ex.




Unionville

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Early warning signs to avoid divorce
« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2014, 09:03:00 AM »


Doesn't matter.  No matter how hard you try.. The "right one" today, maybe the "wrong one" tomorrow or two years from now or 10 years from now.

My wife and I had a great dating relationship.  We had our issues, and looking back on it, some of those issues probably would have indicated there would be trouble in the marriage but they seemed to be minor at the time.  Now, those differences have added up (one probably was a bigger clue that I didn't pick up on -  we were supposed to go away for a weekend, I had to work the night before due to a software release.  The release went bad and I felt I had to stay to help out - she made it a "work is more important than me" even though I was back only 2 hours after we were supposed to leave -- I was the senior member of the team and felt like if my team was going to be there, so should I).  She threatened to leave, I had actually told her to, but she didn't.  I kind of felt like it was a test (like I said - things I should have picked up on that might cause trouble later on).

As far as net worth - sometimes people do bring more to the table, not everything is 50/50 no matter how you would like to believe it.  I'm not saying that is in all cases, and I'm not even saying that is the person with the greater earned income which contributes the greater amount.  Generally when you start thinking about divorce it is a mine vs theirs.

I really like reading these stories of clues one should have picked up on early in a relationship before getting married to someone who ended up divorcing.  It's a real lesson for the rest of us.

Unionville

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2014, 09:13:11 AM »
Quote

Take my advice, do everything that you can to get your wife's earning potential up.  Even if she is a stay at home mom maybe she could take on-line classes and get some job skills.   Even a part time job is a step in the right direction.  Having her stay at home while her job skills atrophy is almost a guarantee of alimony in the event of a divorce.  Even if you two get along famously and stay married you are doing her a favor by improving her job skills.  What would happen if you became disabled and couldn't work?   It happens all the time to people.

Also I think a lot of people on this thread who say the money isn't a big deal must be younger folks.  When you are young quite honestly money is not such a big deal, you have a lifetime of earnings ahead of you.  When you start crowding 60 MONEY BECOMES A VERY BIG DEAL.  When you are young, your net worth tends to be much smaller.  Paradoxically, alimony typically is not awarded for shorter (younger) marriages when much less is at stake, rather alimony is awarded after long term marriages which tends to affect older people approaching retirement more severely.   When you are older you do not have the time to rebuild, also if you lose your job it is much more difficult to get a new job.  You have far fewer years to build up (or rebuild) the nest egg you need for financial independence and retirement.  Trust me, the older you get money becomes an increasingly bigger deal.  That is why I am on this forum.

Boy I must be clueless.  I thought alimony no longer existed. (Maybe it's different in each state?) I thought (unless you have kids for child support) that once the couple splits the money, that's it.  I'm a woman but I think alimony sounds weird to me.  Why should I expect someone to support me?  It's my fault if I don't have job skills. Honestly, with a 50% divorce rate, no one should put themselves in a position of depending on their partner financially.  That is really being clueless, or living in the 1950's.  I have always told girl friends "don't have kids until you are financially able to raise them on your own if you have to."
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 09:16:36 AM by meteor »

Insanity

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2014, 09:20:52 AM »
Boy I must be clueless.  I thought alimony no longer existed. (Maybe it's different in each state?) I thought (unless you have kids for child support) that once the couple splits the money, that's it.  I'm a woman but I think alimony sounds weird to me.  Why should I expect someone to support me?  It's my fault if I don't have job skills. Honestly, with a 50% divorce rate, no one should put themselves in a position of depending on their partner financially.  That is really being clueless, or living in the 1950's.  I have always told girl friends "don't have kids until you are financially able to raise them on your own if you have to."

Unfortunately, it does.  now, while women do tend to get it, men have also as well.   When you look at SAHP, they are taking themselves out of the workplace and are placed at a disadvantage.  I don't consider that a 1950s thing. 

I find that last bit interesting - especially since the decision to have kids/not have kids can have a big strain on a marriage.

CommonCents

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2014, 10:05:07 AM »
Boy I must be clueless.  I thought alimony no longer existed. (Maybe it's different in each state?) I thought (unless you have kids for child support) that once the couple splits the money, that's it.  I'm a woman but I think alimony sounds weird to me.  Why should I expect someone to support me?  It's my fault if I don't have job skills. Honestly, with a 50% divorce rate, no one should put themselves in a position of depending on their partner financially.  That is really being clueless, or living in the 1950's.  I have always told girl friends "don't have kids until you are financially able to raise them on your own if you have to."

Yes, alimony varies by state.
In my state, alimony is tied to marriage length and only extended beyond that in certain situations where there is a reason the other party can't easily work (e.g. asking a 60 yo person to go find a job, who last had a paid one at age 22 and has since been at home raising kids/taking care of house/family for 40 years?  going to be tough.)

Here is an interesting legal article summing up the history of alimony:
http://www.americanbar.org/publications/gpsolo_ereport/2012/april_2012/current_trends_alimony_law.html

>Why should I expect someone to support me?

For me, it comes down to what the parties agreed ex ante, before they were thinking divorce.  If the parties together agreed that one party should stay home, then it seems quite unfair and unreasonable to change this agreement 20 years later because you're getting a divorce.  (I'm not saying it should be permanent!  Just that yes it seems reasonable to compensate/support the one who gave up 20 years of working experience and career for a time).

My parents are happily married for 42 years, with my mom a stay at home mom because my dad's career as a military officer and moving every 2-3 years made it hard for her to continue what she had been doing (teaching).  She faced different licensure standards in each state, some of which were pretty stringent (e.g. wouldn't accept her masters degree and would require her to complete another masters).  She wouldn't be able to build up tenure, if she could even get a job each time.  Some, my parents worried about tax implications of whether the state (ok, just CA) would try to go for dad's retirement salary if she worked.  In this case...her difficulty with building a career was directly due to supporting my dad in his career.  If they divorced (ahhhH!  I can feel evil rays coming from them for even suggesting the possibility!  AHHHH!  yeah, they're that disgusting couple more in love after 42 years than at the beginning that is hard to live up to), it would not be right for my dad not to support my mom.  It's not like if she got a job now for a few years, it could begin to make up/catch up for the years not being in the workplace.  People support their spouses in many ways, from cooking/cleaning/taking care of the kids so the other partner can stay late or travel, to financial support while one is in say, med school, to agreeing to be uprooted and move. 

Divorce is tough no doubt.  But I don't think entirely ending things like alimony is the right solution either.  It's very fact dependent, and as they say - there's her story, his story and the truth.  People are biased to think their circumstances are special and unique.  The truth is no one wins in a divorce.

oldtoyota

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #59 on: February 21, 2014, 10:09:20 AM »
I love it when people who get or got divorced say "she took half of MY net worth" when really, far more often than not, she only took her half of what the two of you accumulated together while married.

This. Reminds me of when men talk of "babysitting" their own children.

That all said, my friend (a woman--gasp!) has to pay alimony to her deadbeat ex. He had a high-paying job and gave it up after they got married. Since he never bothered to get another job, my friend has to pay alimony to him at least until their very young child is 18. Another 9-10 years. And the child doesn't live with the dad either. So, the money goes to support the ex's life with his new girlfriend.

I would need some serious therapy to get through the above situation.


MayDay

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #60 on: February 21, 2014, 10:33:48 AM »
This thread is a bit off-putting as a sahm.  Actually in my head I cursing at most of you and calling you lots of nasty names, to be honest. 

Damn right I should get half our net worth if we divorce.  Neither of us brought anything in to the marriage (scratch that... H brought nothing and I brought a paid off car) as we married out of college.  Why the hell is he more entitled to that money than I am?  He couldn't work the job he is working and make the money he is making if I weren't at home doing all the child rearing, cooking, cleaning, etc.  We made the joint decision that I stay at home, and he agreed because of the benefits to him and our kids.

If we get divorced after I have been at home for ten or 20 years, yes he should pay me temporary alimony.  I have an engineering degree so decent income potential but I can't just jump back into a technical (or any) field after a decade at home.  Again, joint decision that I stay home, he knew the potential consequences ahead of time. 




Unionville

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #61 on: February 21, 2014, 10:44:27 AM »
This thread is a bit off-putting as a sahm.  Actually in my head I cursing at most of you and calling you lots of nasty names, to be honest. 

Damn right I should get half our net worth if we divorce.  Neither of us brought anything in to the marriage (scratch that... H brought nothing and I brought a paid off car) as we married out of college.  Why the hell is he more entitled to that money than I am?  He couldn't work the job he is working and make the money he is making if I weren't at home doing all the child rearing, cooking, cleaning, etc.  We made the joint decision that I stay at home, and he agreed because of the benefits to him and our kids.

If we get divorced after I have been at home for ten or 20 years, yes he should pay me temporary alimony.  I have an engineering degree so decent income potential but I can't just jump back into a technical (or any) field after a decade at home.  Again, joint decision that I stay home, he knew the potential consequences ahead of time.

Maybe the bigger question is "why do women feel they are supposed to stay at home and give up their careers?" I think MMM is a great role model that he quit work to raise his child. Maybe that is the real problem, parents should share the responsibility.

CommonCents

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #62 on: February 21, 2014, 10:53:09 AM »
This thread is a bit off-putting as a sahm.  Actually in my head I cursing at most of you and calling you lots of nasty names, to be honest. 

Damn right I should get half our net worth if we divorce.  Neither of us brought anything in to the marriage (scratch that... H brought nothing and I brought a paid off car) as we married out of college.  Why the hell is he more entitled to that money than I am?  He couldn't work the job he is working and make the money he is making if I weren't at home doing all the child rearing, cooking, cleaning, etc.  We made the joint decision that I stay at home, and he agreed because of the benefits to him and our kids.

If we get divorced after I have been at home for ten or 20 years, yes he should pay me temporary alimony.  I have an engineering degree so decent income potential but I can't just jump back into a technical (or any) field after a decade at home.  Again, joint decision that I stay home, he knew the potential consequences ahead of time.

Maybe the bigger question is "why do women feel they are supposed to stay at home and give up their careers?" I think MMM is a great role model that he quit work to raise his child. Maybe that is the real problem, parents should share the responsibility.

Who said supposed to?

Anyways I know men that have wanted to be the SAHD (such as my BIL) but finances have so far prevented them from doing.  I know men who have physical custody of the kid(s). 

But biologically - the woman gives birth, and needs to medically recover for a time afterwards.  Some women also face depression issues after a birth (PPD).  The woman also is the only one who can breast feed (and damn, it's hard to do at work from what I see).  So physically, yes, it does make sense that for the first year the mom stays home if anyone, not the dad.  After that?  Inertia?  Particularly if they have more kids?  (She'd have to go out and get a new job, he's already got one, and has a year, or more if multiple kids, of exp under the belt).

MayDay

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #63 on: February 21, 2014, 10:53:21 AM »
This thread is a bit off-putting as a sahm.  Actually in my head I cursing at most of you and calling you lots of nasty names, to be honest. 

Damn right I should get half our net worth if we divorce.  Neither of us brought anything in to the marriage (scratch that... H brought nothing and I brought a paid off car) as we married out of college.  Why the hell is he more entitled to that money than I am?  He couldn't work the job he is working and make the money he is making if I weren't at home doing all the child rearing, cooking, cleaning, etc.  We made the joint decision that I stay at home, and he agreed because of the benefits to him and our kids.

If we get divorced after I have been at home for ten or 20 years, yes he should pay me temporary alimony.  I have an engineering degree so decent income potential but I can't just jump back into a technical (or any) field after a decade at home.  Again, joint decision that I stay home, he knew the potential consequences ahead of time.

Maybe the bigger question is "why do women feel they are supposed to stay at home and give up their careers?" I think MMM is a great role model that he quit work to raise his child. Maybe that is the real problem, parents should share the responsibility.

I think your question is a bit silly, since many women don't feel that way, and some men do choose to sah. 

Certainly I think the ideal would be for both parents to work 50-75% (if they want to.  Nothing wrong with both wanting to work full time).  But the reality is that for many/most careers that isn't possible.  So most families are forced to choose between both working full time, or one not working at all. 

I think there is a huge desire for meaningful part time work.  In my SAH circles, I attribute the prevalence of those stupid MLM sales party schemes to this need.  Many SAH moms are going a bit crazy and would like a break from their kids and to bring in a bit of money, but the only PT jobs available are selling pampered chef or minimum wage type jobs that won't cover childcare costs and will fire you if you have to stay home with a sick kid.  In my experience most SAH spouses do go back to work once their youngest is in school full time,which was probably not the experience of the older generation of divorce whiners in this thread.  But even then, there is a huge desire for either PT work, and/or a flexible schedule that allows for staying home with sick kids, attending school meetings, etc. 

Simple Abundant Living

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #64 on: February 21, 2014, 11:02:27 AM »
This thread is a bit off-putting as a sahm.  Actually in my head I cursing at most of you and calling you lots of nasty names, to be honest. 

Damn right I should get half our net worth if we divorce.  Neither of us brought anything in to the marriage (scratch that... H brought nothing and I brought a paid off car) as we married out of college.  Why the hell is he more entitled to that money than I am?  He couldn't work the job he is working and make the money he is making if I weren't at home doing all the child rearing, cooking, cleaning, etc.  We made the joint decision that I stay at home, and he agreed because of the benefits to him and our kids.

If we get divorced after I have been at home for ten or 20 years, yes he should pay me temporary alimony.  I have an engineering degree so decent income potential but I can't just jump back into a technical (or any) field after a decade at home.  Again, joint decision that I stay home, he knew the potential consequences ahead of time.

+1 sister

I think the other thing that disturbs me about this thread is the "money over people" attitude. Although this is an ER forum, I would put forth the idea that money should not be the most important thing you accumulate in life.  As a SAHM, I would have dramatic financial changes if my husband wanted a divorce, but my biggest regret wouldn't be the loss of net worth or lifestyle. We see on this forum that many people live happy lives on "poverty" levels of spending. My regrets and worries would be for my marriage, for my children, and for my spouse.  To quote Grandpa George in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (2005) "There's plenty of money out there. They print more every day. But this [family], there's only five of them in the whole world, and that's all there's ever going to be. Only a dummy would give this up for something as common as money. Are you a dummy? " *quote changed for relevance.   

Of course sometimes divorce (and other bad things) happen to good people. The money is the easiest thing to fix. The hurt, pain, and sadness is much harder. Ask yourself what would MMM do?  He's already answered that:

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/07/10/if-i-woke-up-broke/

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #65 on: February 21, 2014, 11:11:51 AM »
Boy I must be clueless.  I thought alimony no longer existed. (Maybe it's different in each state?) I thought (unless you have kids for child support) that once the couple splits the money, that's it.  I'm a woman but I think alimony sounds weird to me.  Why should I expect someone to support me?  It's my fault if I don't have job skills. Honestly, with a 50% divorce rate, no one should put themselves in a position of depending on their partner financially.  That is really being clueless, or living in the 1950's.  I have always told girl friends "don't have kids until you are financially able to raise them on your own if you have to."

Yes, alimony varies by state.
In my state, alimony is tied to marriage length and only extended beyond that in certain situations where there is a reason the other party can't easily work (e.g. asking a 60 yo person to go find a job, who last had a paid one at age 22 and has since been at home raising kids/taking care of house/family for 40 years?  going to be tough.)

Here is an interesting legal article summing up the history of alimony:
http://www.americanbar.org/publications/gpsolo_ereport/2012/april_2012/current_trends_alimony_law.html

>

Divorce is tough no doubt.  But I don't think entirely ending things like alimony is the right solution either.  It's very fact dependent, and as they say - there's her story, his story and the truth.  People are biased to think their circumstances are special and unique.  The truth is no one wins in a divorce.

My great frustration was that the court did not want to hear the facts such as how I attempted on numerous occasions to get my X back into the workforce.  Its all hearsay in the courts eyes.   Over and over I was was told, the number one deciding factor for alimony and child support is the ability to pay.  I had a job, she did not, game over I pay.  Nothing else matters.  Earlier I somewhat sarcastically mentioned that your X might be a junkie and therefore unemployable.  Conceivably you could pay alimony to a junkie because you have the ability to pay and your X does not.

And yeah, you can fight it out in court, but then you ring up outrageous legal bills and then there is a good chance you will make it worse on yourself.  Court dockets are jammed, judges are busy, they don't want to hear your story, they just want to get you out of their courtroom as quickly as possible.  Justice is only available for those wealthy enough to afford it.  As bad as the settlement was for me, when I saw my final legal bill (15K) I wanted to collapse to the floor and weep.  I imagine hers was nearly as much.  Think of it, 30K flushed down the toilet in the name of obtaining marginal justice.  The legal fees are not even tax deductible.  That's like two years of hard won saving up in flames, and because I was the guy working and saving and economizing I recognize what a substantial loss that was.

FWIW I also thought that alimony was a relic of the 1950s.  I am wiser now.  For the average middle class person, divorce is one of the largest financial landmines that you can possibly step on.  I hoped in this thread to at least give younger folks a warning.

MayDay

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #66 on: February 21, 2014, 11:13:48 AM »
Maybe the bigger question is "why do women feel they are supposed to stay at home and give up their careers?"
I've always wondered this. My parents both worked full time raising 5 kids and my mom has said that she feels she is a much better mother because of it (and I think I personally would go batshit crazy if I had to be around my theoretical kids all the time).

As to MayDay- most people here agree that splitting assets is reasonable. I think the ones that don't had other issues with their marriage/divorce having more to do with the spouse than the splitting of assets. And I can understand temporary alimony when everyone agrees to the SAHP situation but I hear too many horror stories of people cheating the system (and thus cheating the ex) just to be spiteful and to get more money (ie. not getting remarried soley to continue recieving alimony). And since I haven't actually known anyone to pay or recieve alimony these stories are what I base my admittely uninformed initial reaction on. And I did say "get away from it" not "get rid of it" since I'm sure there are situations that warrant it.
I do want to add though: you said he should pay temporary alimony since it was a joint decision and he knew what he was getting into...I see it more on the other end (again, probably because I spent most of my life in a state that does not do alimony so I never saw it as an option) that it was a joint decision for you to leave the work force so you knew what you were getting into

Right, but even if he pays me alimony for a couple years. I still will never reach the level of income I would have had if I had worked those 20 years.  So a few years of alimony isn't intended to make up 20 years of career growth, it is intended to get the SAH spouse "a" job.  I absolutely took a huge risk staying at home, and I know it.  The point is that it is a joint risk.

Unionville

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #67 on: February 21, 2014, 11:18:09 AM »
Maybe the bigger question is "why do women feel they are supposed to stay at home and give up their careers?"
I've always wondered this. My parents both worked full time raising 5 kids and my mom has said that she feels she is a much better mother because of it (and I think I personally would go batshit crazy if I had to be around my theoretical kids all the time).

As to MayDay- most people here agree that splitting assets is reasonable. I think the ones that don't had other issues with their marriage/divorce having more to do with the spouse than the splitting of assets. And I can understand temporary alimony when everyone agrees to the SAHP situation but I hear too many horror stories of people cheating the system (and thus cheating the ex) just to be spiteful and to get more money (ie. not getting remarried soley to continue recieving alimony). And since I haven't actually known anyone to pay or recieve alimony these stories are what I base my admittely uninformed initial reaction on. And I did say "get away from it" not "get rid of it" since I'm sure there are situations that warrant it.
I do want to add though: you said he should pay temporary alimony since it was a joint decision and he knew what he was getting into...I see it more on the other end (again, probably because I spent most of my life in a state that does not do alimony so I never saw it as an option) that it was a joint decision for you to leave the work force so you knew what you were getting into

Right, but even if he pays me alimony for a couple years. I still will never reach the level of income I would have had if I had worked those 20 years.  So a few years of alimony isn't intended to make up 20 years of career growth, it is intended to get the SAH spouse "a" job.  I absolutely took a huge risk staying at home, and I know it.  The point is that it is a joint risk.

I'm really not trying to be a jerk here, but isn't this the choice people make when they have children?  They have to sacrifice a lot. None of us are "owed" the right to return the workplace for the same pay as someone who continued to work, so why should the courts pretend the Stay-at-home parent should be receiving the same salary as if they were still working?  It's hard to say "I want my cake (kids) and eat it too (valued at the same salary)." Actually, this issue is really a middle class/upper class issue.  Most of the famlies I knew growing up, both parents had to work.  There was no choice financially.  There were very few "housewives" who stayed home.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 11:24:42 AM by meteor »

MrFancypants

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #68 on: February 21, 2014, 11:22:52 AM »
Maybe the bigger question is "why do women feel they are supposed to stay at home and give up their careers?" I think MMM is a great role model that he quit work to raise his child. Maybe that is the real problem, parents should share the responsibility.

I think a better question is...  "what's so great about having a career that makes it better than having the opportunity to raise your children and watch them grow?"

No reasonable person would argue that parenthood is not a shared responsibility.  But for somebody in the house, a big part of that shared responsibility is ensuring that enough income flows in to keep that roof over everybody's head.

Beridian

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #69 on: February 21, 2014, 11:24:29 AM »
This thread is a bit off-putting as a sahm.  Actually in my head I cursing at most of you and calling you lots of nasty names, to be honest. 

Damn right I should get half our net worth if we divorce.  Neither of us brought anything in to the marriage (scratch that... H brought nothing and I brought a paid off car) as we married out of college.  Why the hell is he more entitled to that money than I am?  He couldn't work the job he is working and make the money he is making if I weren't at home doing all the child rearing, cooking, cleaning, etc.  We made the joint decision that I stay at home, and he agreed because of the benefits to him and our kids.

If we get divorced after I have been at home for ten or 20 years, yes he should pay me temporary alimony.  I have an engineering degree so decent income potential but I can't just jump back into a technical (or any) field after a decade at home.  Again, joint decision that I stay home, he knew the potential consequences ahead of time.

+1 sister

I think the other thing that disturbs me about this thread is the "money over people" attitude. Although this is an ER forum, I would put forth the idea that money should not be the most important thing you accumulate in life.  As a SAHM, I would have dramatic financial changes if my husband wanted a divorce, but my biggest regret wouldn't be the loss of net worth or lifestyle. We see on this forum that many people live happy lives on "poverty" levels of spending. My regrets and worries would be for my marriage, for my children, and for my spouse.  To quote Grandpa George in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (2005) "There's plenty of money out there. They print more every day. But this [family], there's only five of them in the whole world, and that's all there's ever going to be. Only a dummy would give this up for something as common as money. Are you a dummy? " *quote changed for relevance.   

Of course sometimes divorce (and other bad things) happen to good people. The money is the easiest thing to fix. The hurt, pain, and sadness is much harder. Ask yourself what would MMM do?  He's already answered that:

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/07/10/if-i-woke-up-broke/

You bring up another good point.  I had no choice in the divorce, I wanted to stick it out and try to make things better.  Guess what, it doesn't matter!  You could stand in front of the judge and say "why yes, your honor, I wish to stand by my commitment and stay married"; too bad, you have no choice, if your spouse files you are screwed and there is nothing you can do about it.

I guess that is the underlying point, when you get served with divorce papers you have very little in the way of choices or say.  They tally up your assets and income, plug it into a computer program, arrive at some numbers and send you packing.  I wish I could have contested my divorce but it is not allowed!   No fault divorce, nobody is at fault, but you still get the bill.   I have a special needs daughter that desperately needs both her parents and I wanted to fight to do the right thing, mom couldn't take it any more and bailed out.  I thought that would be significant to the court.  Nope, too bad sir, tough luck on you, you have no say, you have the ability to pay, she does not, you lose, NEXT!
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 11:59:28 AM by Beridian »

MrFancypants

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #70 on: February 21, 2014, 11:27:09 AM »
So what happens if you quit your job the second divorce papers are filed?  How do they calculate future payments (child support, alimony, whatever)?

Beridian

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #71 on: February 21, 2014, 11:44:18 AM »
So what happens if you quit your job the second divorce papers are filed?  How do they calculate future payments (child support, alimony, whatever)?

I asked my attorney the same question.  The answer was that if the judge gets even a hint that you are trying to game the process they will put the screws to you even harder.  They will also look at your potential income.  If you have good job skills and your X does not they will be looking to you to pay.  I have even heard stories of people going to jail for not paying their x spouses.  I thought that there was no such thing as debtors prisons, but apparently there are.

And that's the point, you lose a lot of power and rights when you say I do.  Many people do not realize the potential damage that can occur, and I was one of them.  Sadly the worst stories tend to happen to people later in life.  My dad's wife (my step mom) got really sick later in life.   My dad was of limited means, not dirt poor but lower middle class.   His wife needed nursing home care.  My dad was forced to spend down most of his assets before the state would step in and help with the bills.  If they had not been married this would have never happened. 

On your wedding day marriage is all sunshine and lolly pops.   Twenty or thirty years later reality can smack you up side the head.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 11:47:44 AM by Beridian »

forward

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #72 on: February 21, 2014, 11:44:53 AM »
So what happens if you quit your job the second divorce papers are filed?  How do they calculate future payments (child support, alimony, whatever)?

Usually they say X is your earning potential and thus %X is what you are required to pay.  If you don't pay its starts adding up.  When you go to get a new job they garnish the wages.

The child support issue is interesting.  It is paid to the other parent and they can  do whatever they want with it, period.  They can put in place a high spending lifestyle for the child and make a whole host of decisions with the child that the other parent has no say in.  If they choose to be collaborative, great, if they don't then the only course is to go back to court which costs $$$$. And the outcome rarely makes any improvement. 

It can be really difficult.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 11:49:09 AM by mic575 »

MrFancypants

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #73 on: February 21, 2014, 11:47:14 AM »
wtf...  so they factor in some oddball estimation of what you can make and stick you in prison if you can't find a job that pays that?  Is it really that simple?

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #74 on: February 21, 2014, 11:50:33 AM »
wtf...  so they factor in some oddball estimation of what you can make and stick you in prison if you can't find a job that pays that?  Is it really that simple?

Basically yes, they don't like to do jail though because that obviously harms earning potential.

CommonCents

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #75 on: February 21, 2014, 11:52:27 AM »
Maybe the bigger question is "why do women feel they are supposed to stay at home and give up their careers?"
I've always wondered this. My parents both worked full time raising 5 kids and my mom has said that she feels she is a much better mother because of it (and I think I personally would go batshit crazy if I had to be around my theoretical kids all the time).

As to MayDay- most people here agree that splitting assets is reasonable. I think the ones that don't had other issues with their marriage/divorce having more to do with the spouse than the splitting of assets. And I can understand temporary alimony when everyone agrees to the SAHP situation but I hear too many horror stories of people cheating the system (and thus cheating the ex) just to be spiteful and to get more money (ie. not getting remarried soley to continue recieving alimony). And since I haven't actually known anyone to pay or recieve alimony these stories are what I base my admittely uninformed initial reaction on. And I did say "get away from it" not "get rid of it" since I'm sure there are situations that warrant it.
I do want to add though: you said he should pay temporary alimony since it was a joint decision and he knew what he was getting into...I see it more on the other end (again, probably because I spent most of my life in a state that does not do alimony so I never saw it as an option) that it was a joint decision for you to leave the work force so you knew what you were getting into

Right, but even if he pays me alimony for a couple years. I still will never reach the level of income I would have had if I had worked those 20 years.  So a few years of alimony isn't intended to make up 20 years of career growth, it is intended to get the SAH spouse "a" job.  I absolutely took a huge risk staying at home, and I know it.  The point is that it is a joint risk.

I'm really not trying to be a jerk here, but isn't this the choice people make when they have children?  They have to sacrifice a lot. None of us are "owed" the right to return the workplace for the same pay as someone who continued to work, so why should the courts pretend the Stay-at-home parent should be receiving the same salary as if they were still working?  It's hard to say "I want my cake (kids) and eat it too (valued at the same salary)." Actually, this issue is really a middle class/upper class issue.  Most of the famlies I knew growing up, both parents had to work.  There was no choice financially.  There were very few "housewives" who stayed home.

I think the point is that:
- If no alimony at all, ALL of the financial risk for a joint decision goes to the stay at home one.  (No money to support oneself while finding a job AND a lesser job than if you worked those years plus an overall reduced career trajectory.)
- If some alimony, the financial risk for a joint decision is shared
- If permanent alimony for a short marriage, virtually all of the financial risk for a joint decision goes to the working one.  (I limit this to a short marriage, because in a long marriage, there really is no time for the spouse to get back on their feet working.  For example - marry at 20, divorce at 60, that's 5 years and hard to get hired as a 60 yo with no work experience.)

Beridian

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #76 on: February 21, 2014, 11:54:00 AM »
wtf...  so they factor in some oddball estimation of what you can make and stick you in prison if you can't find a job that pays that?  Is it really that simple?

Yes, pretty much.  I know of a couple guys who were unemployed and behind on child support.  They put out arrest warrants and tossed them in the clink.  Being unemployed was not an excuse.  Perhaps they were expected to sell their blood and internal organs.

To be fair I have only heard of this happening in the context of child support.  And those guys were released after a couple days.  But the courts can be very persuasive when they force you to pay.  Someone else mentioned garnishment of wages, if you get behind in your payments and later catch a break and get a job, count on them garnishing your wages.  If you have any appreciable assets the court can seize them as well.  Divorce is no joke, its as serious as a heart attack, especially if there are kids or it was a long term marriage.

CommonCents

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #77 on: February 21, 2014, 11:57:05 AM »
wtf...  so they factor in some oddball estimation of what you can make and stick you in prison if you can't find a job that pays that?  Is it really that simple?

Basically yes, they don't like to do jail though because that obviously harms earning potential.

They will do jail in cases of flagrant abuse.  E.g. I had someone come in for pro bono support at the court where I was volunteering, who had NEVER PAID A DIME for HIS MULTIPLE CHILDREN (by different women) and owed thousands of dollars.  I think the hope is to make them realize this is serious. (Note: The courts can't garnish wages if you work under the table.)  I managed to refrain from saying "you asshole, how do you think your kids were fed, clothed and housed" or "wear a condom."

The issue that comes up more often is when someone quits working to attend school to get a better job.  They can be set a figure that the courts feel they "should" be earning.  As with anything, it's an imperfect system.  If you didn't do this, many would quit jobs, work under table etc to avoid paying.

MayDay

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #78 on: February 21, 2014, 12:20:32 PM »
Maybe the bigger question is "why do women feel they are supposed to stay at home and give up their careers?"
I've always wondered this. My parents both worked full time raising 5 kids and my mom has said that she feels she is a much better mother because of it (and I think I personally would go batshit crazy if I had to be around my theoretical kids all the time).

As to MayDay- most people here agree that splitting assets is reasonable. I think the ones that don't had other issues with their marriage/divorce having more to do with the spouse than the splitting of assets. And I can understand temporary alimony when everyone agrees to the SAHP situation but I hear too many horror stories of people cheating the system (and thus cheating the ex) just to be spiteful and to get more money (ie. not getting remarried soley to continue recieving alimony). And since I haven't actually known anyone to pay or recieve alimony these stories are what I base my admittely uninformed initial reaction on. And I did say "get away from it" not "get rid of it" since I'm sure there are situations that warrant it.
I do want to add though: you said he should pay temporary alimony since it was a joint decision and he knew what he was getting into...I see it more on the other end (again, probably because I spent most of my life in a state that does not do alimony so I never saw it as an option) that it was a joint decision for you to leave the work force so you knew what you were getting into

Right, but even if he pays me alimony for a couple years. I still will never reach the level of income I would have had if I had worked those 20 years.  So a few years of alimony isn't intended to make up 20 years of career growth, it is intended to get the SAH spouse "a" job.  I absolutely took a huge risk staying at home, and I know it.  The point is that it is a joint risk.

I'm really not trying to be a jerk here, but isn't this the choice people make when they have children?  They have to sacrifice a lot. None of us are "owed" the right to return the workplace for the same pay as someone who continued to work, so why should the courts pretend the Stay-at-home parent should be receiving the same salary as if they were still working?  It's hard to say "I want my cake (kids) and eat it too (valued at the same salary)." Actually, this issue is really a middle class/upper class issue.  Most of the famlies I knew growing up, both parents had to work.  There was no choice financially.  There were very few "housewives" who stayed home.

Right, but my point is that it should be a joint risk. 

My risk is that we get divorced I have little to no earning potential, and I get a few years of alimony to get a job at will definitely be lower in salary than if I had worked the whole time. 

His risk is that we get divorced, and he has to pay me alimony for a few years. 

Both of us benefitted from me staying home all those years. 

foobar

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #79 on: February 21, 2014, 12:20:59 PM »
It is a choice. But the choice isn't made by the stay at home partner. It is made by the couple.  Seems pretty fair to me that both pay for that choice.



I'm really not trying to be a jerk here, but isn't this the choice people make when they have children?  They have to sacrifice a lot. None of us are "owed" the right to return the workplace for the same pay as someone who continued to work, so why should the courts pretend the Stay-at-home parent should be receiving the same salary as if they were still working?  It's hard to say "I want my cake (kids) and eat it too (valued at the same salary)." Actually, this issue is really a middle class/upper class issue.  Most of the famlies I knew growing up, both parents had to work.  There was no choice financially.  There were very few "housewives" who stayed home.

Emilyngh

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #80 on: February 21, 2014, 12:51:34 PM »
It's interesting that we're hearing mostly from men on this thread.  I find some of the comments to be a little off-base (things like "she got/will get half of my net worth."  What's this "my"?  Shouldn't it be "our" net worth?). 

I agree.

I also question if a blanket anti-SAHP stance will sometimes prioritize the accumulation of money over working towards ones values, priorities, and true happiness.  Eg., DH is a SAHD.   I am fully aware that if we divorced in the next few years or if he never wound up going back to work FT even after DD is in school, I will be paying CS and alimony.   I am not bitter about that, b/c it is not *MY* money, even though I WOH.   I love him being a SAHP and see the risk of losing money b/c of it well worth for what it enables (us to live the life we really care about).

And I am well aware of the effects of CS on wealth accumulation.   DH was previously married and we have paid hefty CS (using my earnings) for the past 12 years.   And we'll be footing most of the bill for college, in addition to the cost of having bought a bigger house for rooms for the kids, paying for all of their gifts, clothes, and vacations, etc.   Yet somehow, we've still managed to make progress towards FI.   So, in the scheme of things, divorce is not as financially scary as it has been presented, IME.   We are, after-all, mustachians; we'll still be able to figure out how to save money and build our networth.

MrFancypants

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #81 on: February 21, 2014, 12:57:56 PM »
The issue that comes up more often is when someone quits working to attend school to get a better job.  They can be set a figure that the courts feel they "should" be earning.  As with anything, it's an imperfect system.  If you didn't do this, many would quit jobs, work under table etc to avoid paying.

This is beyond imperfect, it is immoral.  If you are legally compelled to maintain employment under threat of incarceration, you are basically and indentured servant.  I'll be dramatic and call it a human rights violation, because it is generally considered unacceptable to force an individual to perform labor under threat of any kind.

CommonCents

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #82 on: February 21, 2014, 01:06:46 PM »
The issue that comes up more often is when someone quits working to attend school to get a better job.  They can be set a figure that the courts feel they "should" be earning.  As with anything, it's an imperfect system.  If you didn't do this, many would quit jobs, work under table etc to avoid paying.

This is beyond imperfect, it is immoral.  If you are legally compelled to maintain employment under threat of incarceration, you are basically and indentured servant.  I'll be dramatic and call it a human rights violation, because it is generally considered unacceptable to force an individual to perform labor under threat of any kind.

You are legally obligated to SUPPORT YOUR CHILDREN.  You choose to have them (have sex, particularly while not wearing protection or getting sterilized etc) and yes, the state can force you to work to support them rather than walking away.  Because the law thinks they need protection because a 4 yo can't take care of herself. 

People can rack up many thousands of dollars before I've seen incarceration threatened.  The one I mentioned above had gotten over $100k.

randymarsh

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #83 on: February 21, 2014, 01:14:18 PM »
The issue that comes up more often is when someone quits working to attend school to get a better job.  They can be set a figure that the courts feel they "should" be earning.  As with anything, it's an imperfect system.  If you didn't do this, many would quit jobs, work under table etc to avoid paying.

This is beyond imperfect, it is immoral.  If you are legally compelled to maintain employment under threat of incarceration, you are basically and indentured servant.  I'll be dramatic and call it a human rights violation, because it is generally considered unacceptable to force an individual to perform labor under threat of any kind.

You are legally obligated to SUPPORT YOUR CHILDREN.

Serious question. How does putting people jail provide support for their children?

MrFancypants

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #84 on: February 21, 2014, 01:15:49 PM »
You are legally obligated to SUPPORT YOUR CHILDREN.  You choose to have them (have sex, particularly while not wearing protection or getting sterilized etc) and yes, the state can force you to work to support them rather than walking away.  Because the law thinks they need protection because a 4 yo can't take care of herself. 

People can rack up many thousands of dollars before I've seen incarceration threatened.  The one I mentioned above had gotten over $100k.

To be specific, I am refering to alimony, not child support.  I'll let you reformulate your response.

CupcakeStache

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #85 on: February 21, 2014, 01:16:17 PM »
Right, but my point is that it should be a joint risk. 

My risk is that we get divorced I have little to no earning potential, and I get a few years of alimony to get a job at will definitely be lower in salary than if I had worked the whole time. 

His risk is that we get divorced, and he has to pay me alimony for a few years. 

Both of us benefitted from me staying home all those years.

Totally this! This is my situation. My husband and I both worked and made about the same amount of money. After our son was born we tried both working full time still - and we didn't like it. It was stressful and emotionally difficult. So we made the choice together that I would stay home. He's able to focus on advancing his career and I focus on taking care of our son and all of the house, money, admin stuff. We are totally happy with this choice.

If we get divorced, it will obviously be financially rough on both of us - but like MayDay said, it has to be a joint risk.


CommonCents

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #86 on: February 21, 2014, 01:20:19 PM »
The issue that comes up more often is when someone quits working to attend school to get a better job.  They can be set a figure that the courts feel they "should" be earning.  As with anything, it's an imperfect system.  If you didn't do this, many would quit jobs, work under table etc to avoid paying.

This is beyond imperfect, it is immoral.  If you are legally compelled to maintain employment under threat of incarceration, you are basically and indentured servant.  I'll be dramatic and call it a human rights violation, because it is generally considered unacceptable to force an individual to perform labor under threat of any kind.

You are legally obligated to SUPPORT YOUR CHILDREN.

Serious question. How does putting people jail provide support for their children?
I think it's usually just for a few days and it's supposed to be a wakeup call. The one guy I know who got jail time for back child support miraculously managed to find a job afterwards after being unemployed for years

+1

warfreak2

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #87 on: February 21, 2014, 01:22:13 PM »
Serious question. How does putting people jail provide support for their children?
It doesn't, but directly helping the victims isn't really the reason most people get put in jail. Functions of jail can include removing people from society, deterring others from doing the same, and just plain revenge.

Beridian

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #88 on: February 21, 2014, 01:23:55 PM »
The issue that comes up more often is when someone quits working to attend school to get a better job.  They can be set a figure that the courts feel they "should" be earning.  As with anything, it's an imperfect system.  If you didn't do this, many would quit jobs, work under table etc to avoid paying.

This is beyond imperfect, it is immoral.  If you are legally compelled to maintain employment under threat of incarceration, you are basically and indentured servant.  I'll be dramatic and call it a human rights violation, because it is generally considered unacceptable to force an individual to perform labor under threat of any kind.

It is true, but whether it is immoral or not is up to debate.   The important thing to understand is that getting married and having children obligates you in very serious ways, and the courts will hold you accountable.  It is a fair enough thing to be required to support children.  I think being required to support an X spouse is more akin to slavery, at least in some cases.  It's too bad that the courts have become little more than rubber stamping machines that tend to apply once-size-fits-all rulings to everyone

CommonCents

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #89 on: February 21, 2014, 01:24:38 PM »
You are legally obligated to SUPPORT YOUR CHILDREN.  You choose to have them (have sex, particularly while not wearing protection or getting sterilized etc) and yes, the state can force you to work to support them rather than walking away.  Because the law thinks they need protection because a 4 yo can't take care of herself. 

People can rack up many thousands of dollars before I've seen incarceration threatened.  The one I mentioned above had gotten over $100k.

To be specific, I am refering to alimony, not child support.  I'll let you reformulate your response.

Because of all of the reasons already put forth in this thread.  First, I'm not actually clear whether they do put people in jail for failure to pay alimony - I only know for sure that they do for child support.  But second, it's because you agreed way back when to support each other in "good times and bad."  Now you've come to the bad, you've decided to split and the state feels they shouldn't be left holding the bag supporting your ex (particularly after a lengthy marriage) by having them go on public assistance. 

momo

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #90 on: February 21, 2014, 01:34:08 PM »
I would also like to share my dad's advice on marriage: know your partner. Know them well. Know how they behave when nothing in their life is working out how they want. Know how they act when they're dead tired and cranky. Know how they react in tough situations. Live with them long enough that they drop their public persona and you see their true face. Ask someone honest and insightful "do you see any issues with this person?". Live with them long enough that you know what they're really like and what they really want from you.

Then if you still want to marry them, you get my blessing.

Love your father's sage advice!  Thanks for sharing these rays of hope in an otherwise serious topic.

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #91 on: February 21, 2014, 01:37:19 PM »
So we made the choice together that I would stay home. He's able to focus on advancing his career and I focus on taking care of our son and all of the house, money, admin stuff. We are totally happy with this choice.

If we get divorced, it will obviously be financially rough on both of us - but like MayDay said, it has to be a joint risk.

I suspect most married couples with a SAHP feel this way...until they don't. You guys are happy with this choice today, but will both of you in 15 years during a divorce?

momo

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #92 on: February 21, 2014, 01:49:36 PM »
Boy I must be clueless.  I thought alimony no longer existed. (Maybe it's different in each state?) I thought (unless you have kids for child support) that once the couple splits the money, that's it.  I'm a woman but I think alimony sounds weird to me.  Why should I expect someone to support me?  It's my fault if I don't have job skills. Honestly, with a 50% divorce rate, no one should put themselves in a position of depending on their partner financially.  That is really being clueless, or living in the 1950's.  I have always told girl friends "don't have kids until you are financially able to raise them on your own if you have to."

Yes, alimony varies by state.
In my state, alimony is tied to marriage length and only extended beyond that in certain situations where there is a reason the other party can't easily work (e.g. asking a 60 yo person to go find a job, who last had a paid one at age 22 and has since been at home raising kids/taking care of house/family for 40 years?  going to be tough.)

Here is an interesting legal article summing up the history of alimony:
http://www.americanbar.org/publications/gpsolo_ereport/2012/april_2012/current_trends_alimony_law.html

>

Divorce is tough no doubt.  But I don't think entirely ending things like alimony is the right solution either.  It's very fact dependent, and as they say - there's her story, his story and the truth.  People are biased to think their circumstances are special and unique.  The truth is no one wins in a divorce.

My great frustration was that the court did not want to hear the facts such as how I attempted on numerous occasions to get my X back into the workforce.  Its all hearsay in the courts eyes.   Over and over I was was told, the number one deciding factor for alimony and child support is the ability to pay.  I had a job, she did not, game over I pay.  Nothing else matters.  Earlier I somewhat sarcastically mentioned that your X might be a junkie and therefore unemployable.  Conceivably you could pay alimony to a junkie because you have the ability to pay and your X does not.

And yeah, you can fight it out in court, but then you ring up outrageous legal bills and then there is a good chance you will make it worse on yourself.  Court dockets are jammed, judges are busy, they don't want to hear your story, they just want to get you out of their courtroom as quickly as possible.  Justice is only available for those wealthy enough to afford it.  As bad as the settlement was for me, when I saw my final legal bill (15K) I wanted to collapse to the floor and weep.  I imagine hers was nearly as much.  Think of it, 30K flushed down the toilet in the name of obtaining marginal justice.  The legal fees are not even tax deductible.  That's like two years of hard won saving up in flames, and because I was the guy working and saving and economizing I recognize what a substantial loss that was.

FWIW I also thought that alimony was a relic of the 1950s.  I am wiser now.  For the average middle class person, divorce is one of the largest financial landmines that you can possibly step on.  I hoped in this thread to at least give younger folks a warning.

@ Beridian, Frankling and DoubleDown:  Reading your stories really opens ones eyes to how difficult divorce can be and some of the serious financial implications.  Thank you all for sharing.  Got some questions for you any anyone else if you don't mind sharing your ideas.

1)  If you had a pre-nup where you bring in more assets than your partner prior to marriage, wouldn't that be sufficient to protect your assets (especially if you kept your finances separate)? 
2) Would putting your assets into trusts help protect you?
3) Don't quite understand how or why 401k and IRA accounts should be split especially if one party can prove X amount was saved prior to the marriage.  Any thoughts on this?
4) We have a friend whose wife is the same as your ex, she got fired and now refuses to work; he alone works and pays for everything.  He won't divorce her (almost in his 70s) and is constantly living a life of stress and desperation.  Really feel for him and but there just isn't a support from her and we feel terrible for him.  Big IF they divorced why wouldn't Courts consider her lack of contribution/employment (she is perfect able but chooses not to) especially if there are no children?  You mentioned some reasons in your earlier posts, but wonder isn't there some level of responsibility that both parties need to exhibit?
5)  How do inheritances factor in divorce?  Say the husband gets one before the divorce or after, won't that still be split?

Fascinating stories each and every single one.  Thanks everyone for sharing , so  much wisdom in these stories. :)
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 01:53:20 PM by StashtasticMomo »

thepokercab

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #93 on: February 21, 2014, 01:49:44 PM »
I am happily married with two kids, and my wife has been a SAHM for about 4 out of 7 years of our marriage.  Our youngest child is about 13 months now, and she's been at home with him. Lately- i've been asking her about getting back into the workforce.  She is actually in early childhood education and any job she gets is very likely to come with either free or reduced childcare- which would be big for us. 

Anyway- she's been pushing back on me pretty hard, not wanting to go back to work.  Personally, i'm not a huge fan of my job, so i'd love to accelerate our path to FIRE by adding in some more income into the household.  But, she insists that she wouldn't be happy at work right now.  I'll admit it is tough.  At no point when we got married did we say that one of us would be a stay at home parent indefinitely. She wanted to stay at home for the first year for both of our kids, and I totally supported that. And i'd agree with folks that I was only able to reach my full earning potential with her at home taking primary care of the kids.

But now, with the kids getting older, and her being out of work for awhile, I see that it might start getting harder and harder for her to go back.  To be honest, it does worry me a bit, and to be frank, I feel like it puts me in the awkward position of being the "bad guy" by trying to encourage her to work. 


MrFancypants

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #94 on: February 21, 2014, 01:51:53 PM »
But second, it's because you agreed way back when to support each other in "good times and bad."  Now you've come to the bad, you've decided to split and the state feels they shouldn't be left holding the bag supporting your ex (particularly after a lengthy marriage) by having them go on public assistance.

If "support each other in good times and bad" means that the support doesn't end at divorce does that mean I can ask the court to have the ex spouse support me as well?  I need somebody to do all the domestic duties that are now unfulfilled if there's an expectation that I continue to support via holding a job.

Threshkin

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #95 on: February 21, 2014, 01:58:08 PM »
I was divorced in 2008 after 23 years of marriage.  When my spouse asked it was a complete shock but after a while I found that I could see the signs.  I had just been blinding myself saying, "I am happily married, I am happily married" continuously.  Right after our youngest child turned 18 my spouse announced "I want to be on my own before I get too old."

I had no problem at all with splitting our assets 50/50.  We had both started with almost nothing and everything we built, we did together.

My spouse had been SAH for the last 10 years.  Before we filed I asked about maintenance but my spouse said "No".

I hired a lawyer to do the paperwork.  We could have done it ourselves but is was too emotionally draining for me.  On my lawyer's recommendation I wound up giving my spouse around 60% of our assets and nearly 100% of the liquid assets to reduce the risk of my spouse coming back later asking for maintenance. 

Previous posters have mentioned the emotional impact.  I was devastated and an emotional wreck for a long time.  But time heals if you let it.  I focused on work and started volunteering extensively.  There was an empty spot in my heart for years but eventually it filled in.

Was it a big financial hit?  Of course!  We were very close to FI at that time though we had not really thought about it that way.  After the divorce, I had virtually no cash but still had my job (and the dog). 

Fast forward 6 years and my post divorce NW has tripled, I am in a new stable relationship, and I am back to FI.

Not all stories are bad.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 02:02:22 PM by Threshkin »

Beridian

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #96 on: February 21, 2014, 02:01:38 PM »
Maybe the bigger question is "why do women feel they are supposed to stay at home and give up their careers?"
I've always wondered this. My parents both worked full time raising 5 kids and my mom has said that she feels she is a much better mother because of it (and I think I personally would go batshit crazy if I had to be around my theoretical kids all the time).

As to MayDay- most people here agree that splitting assets is reasonable. I think the ones that don't had other issues with their marriage/divorce having more to do with the spouse than the splitting of assets. And I can understand temporary alimony when everyone agrees to the SAHP situation but I hear too many horror stories of people cheating the system (and thus cheating the ex) just to be spiteful and to get more money (ie. not getting remarried soley to continue recieving alimony). And since I haven't actually known anyone to pay or recieve alimony these stories are what I base my admittely uninformed initial reaction on. And I did say "get away from it" not "get rid of it" since I'm sure there are situations that warrant it.
I do want to add though: you said he should pay temporary alimony since it was a joint decision and he knew what he was getting into...I see it more on the other end (again, probably because I spent most of my life in a state that does not do alimony so I never saw it as an option) that it was a joint decision for you to leave the work force so you knew what you were getting into

Right, but even if he pays me alimony for a couple years. I still will never reach the level of income I would have had if I had worked those 20 years.  So a few years of alimony isn't intended to make up 20 years of career growth, it is intended to get the SAH spouse "a" job.  I absolutely took a huge risk staying at home, and I know it.  The point is that it is a joint risk.

I'm really not trying to be a jerk here, but isn't this the choice people make when they have children?  They have to sacrifice a lot. None of us are "owed" the right to return the workplace for the same pay as someone who continued to work, so why should the courts pretend the Stay-at-home parent should be receiving the same salary as if they were still working?  It's hard to say "I want my cake (kids) and eat it too (valued at the same salary)." Actually, this issue is really a middle class/upper class issue.  Most of the famlies I knew growing up, both parents had to work.  There was no choice financially.  There were very few "housewives" who stayed home.

Right, but my point is that it should be a joint risk. 

My risk is that we get divorced I have little to no earning potential, and I get a few years of alimony to get a job at will definitely be lower in salary than if I had worked the whole time. 

His risk is that we get divorced, and he has to pay me alimony for a few years. 

Both of us benefitted from me staying home all those years.

OK so it is a joint risk, but what if you had no say so in the divorce?   What if it was forced upon you?   

Lets say my spouse and I agree that one parent stays at home.   Fine, we agree, I am to be the breadwinner and my spouse is the homemaker.  Its a contract of sorts (as is the marriage).  Now my spouse decides they want out.  I am still keeping up my end of the contract, I am supporting everybody, I did not break my contract, my spouse did.  So is it then fair that I am required to pay alimony to my spouse?  The divorce was my spouse's decision alone, I was not an equal partner in that decision, it was unilaterally made by my spouse.   I was an equal partner in the marriage decision and the stay at home parent decision.

You will likely say it depends on the circumstances which is reasonable.  If I were abusive towards my spouse I would have some liability.  If my spouse on the other hand found someone else that they liked better, then I should not be held responsible, after all I upheld my end of the bargain.  The problem is that the courts do not want to hear the reason, they just look at the numbers.   Can you see the injustice in that?


Cheddar Stacker

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #97 on: February 21, 2014, 02:02:34 PM »
But now, with the kids getting older, and her being out of work for awhile, I see that it might start getting harder and harder for her to go back.  To be honest, it does worry me a bit, and to be frank, I feel like it puts me in the awkward position of being the "bad guy" by trying to encourage her to work.

It was a joint decision for her to stay home, and it should be a joint decision whether or not she goes back. I don't think you have to be the bad guy, you just need to have serious discussions about how you both see the next 5 years going, then the next 5.

I'm going through this right now, but I'm encouraging my wife to stay home more so we all remain sane. Young kids are no joke, and we are all happier when she is there to keep everything running along. She wants to work a little, and I'm fine with that, and I know she wants to go back to work more when the kids are in school full-time.

As others have said, it's a risk for both of us but it's one we're both fully committed to and willing to take on.

CommonCents

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #98 on: February 21, 2014, 02:07:33 PM »
But second, it's because you agreed way back when to support each other in "good times and bad."  Now you've come to the bad, you've decided to split and the state feels they shouldn't be left holding the bag supporting your ex (particularly after a lengthy marriage) by having them go on public assistance.

If "support each other in good times and bad" means that the support doesn't end at divorce does that mean I can ask the court to have the ex spouse support me as well?  I need somebody to do all the domestic duties that are now unfulfilled if there's an expectation that I continue to support via holding a job.

And this is one of the reasons, that's why I support limited alimony.
SAHP: Gave up a certain sum of lifetime earnings - will start it at a longer rung on the ladder, giving up a permanent amount of career growth. 
WP: Gives up a limited cash for a few years.  Domestic duties now fully on WP.

Look, I'm not a SAHP.  I don't have kids, I do have a career.  I have no intentions of being a SAHP.  I'd consider it, but DH has expressed more interest in it than me (but less aptitude for it, consider I do 90% of the domestic work now...).  This discussion isn't about my life or whether I personally had a negative experience.  But, this is how I feel things are fair.  Clearly you disagree.  As with all forums, some folks value things like money over other things.  Some families here value time with kids or homecooked meals or clean houses or whatever else it is, and choose to have a stay at home spouse and I think it is MORE of a screw over to tell the non-working spouse that you get no time to find a job, no time to train for a job, instead jump back into a workforce you left long ago if you can, get a lesser paying job, never reach the same career heights (in the amount of time left for you to work), than it is to say to the working spouse that they have to support for a limited time.  FWIW, I agree that permanent alimony, other than for a super long marriage, would skew things back in favor of the stay at home parent and screw over the working parent.

momo

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Re: Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)
« Reply #99 on: February 21, 2014, 02:08:56 PM »
But now, with the kids getting older, and her being out of work for awhile, I see that it might start getting harder and harder for her to go back.  To be honest, it does worry me a bit, and to be frank, I feel like it puts me in the awkward position of being the "bad guy" by trying to encourage her to work.
We are sort of in this situation except no kids, yet.  My girlfriend works but hates her toxic environment working as a international tax accountant.  She wants to change jobs but the thing is she badly needs to pass her CPA exams (yesteryear) to apply elsewhere and she has been unmotivated and lazy for two years!  In those two years she took one month unpaid time off to just study and only passed one section! Two more remain and frankly she refuses to dedicate herself to helping her own situation by studying.  As they say you cannot force anyone to anything to help themselves and such is our situation.  A vicious cycle to say the least, and nothing will improve for her (regardless if I reach early retirement).

@ the pokercab:  We can relate!  You may feel like the bad person for encouraging, pushing, pulling her towards employment, but in the end, it will help create more balance in her life, focus, appreciation and purpose.  Ultimately worse case, if one passes prematurely we feel the burden to raise the children should not be met under massive debts and one partner not even knowing how to stand on their own two feet.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 02:12:36 PM by StashtasticMomo »