Divorce - WMFD (Weapon of Mass Financial Destruction)

[reginna]

But, I personally don't see having a pre-nup as being all in.  If you are going to have one, why bother getting married? (and I'm not saying that be condescending to those who do believe in them, I understand some like to have the protection).

I think that's a fair question, and even though it was posed rhetorically, I'll venture an answer from my perspective: I see it much as the same thing as preparing a will or proper estate planning. You could die without one, and leave it to the courts to decide where your assets and benefits go. But that's really giving up all control with the misguided hope that the laws or judge in your locality will agree with or even know what your intentions were. Similarly in a divorce, the likelihood that the laws in your area will align with what a couple would have chosen are slim and none, and certainly divorcing couples often have differing views on what should happen. Putting it all in writing when the parties can have a less emotionally charged and non-confrontational discussion helps prevent disagreements down the road, and takes the guesswork out of how things should be split if the marriage doesn't work out for whatever reason (just like an estate plan takes the guesswork out after a death).

I think you're right, it's less than an "all in" mentality, but in the cold statistics of reality, nearly half of all marriages will end in divorce. Those are really high odds, I think it reasonable to realize any of us could be the one out of two who finds themselves on the wrong side of the odds and therefore have a plan rather than leaving it to the whims of local laws or court, which are decidedly imperfect and often even unfair, as pointed out by some of the stories here.

Ha, at the time of my divorce I had $6500/month in take home pay, and according to the state formulas and with no prenup, was ordered to send my ex-wife $6400/month in alimony and child support and maintaining the marital residence for three years. For those challenged with math, that left me exactly $100/month to live on in my own apartment and for my two kids with me half-time for three years, in expensive Wash. DC. That is no exaggeration. And that was all on top of splitting the assets and my future pension and social security 50-50. This despite the strong evidence that my wife was cheating on me, and it was her who drove the divorce, but none of that matters as far as the law is concerned. Of course I howled that it was unfair and impossible to sustain, and the lawyers and judge all told me what a "good" deal I was getting according to the law and had better settle. So, I lived off credit cards for three years, and thanked God when it was finally over.

That was truly brutal. Glad you made it though!

[Insanity]

But, I personally don't see having a pre-nup as being all in.  If you are going to have one, why bother getting married? (and I'm not saying that be condescending to those who do believe in them, I understand some like to have the protection).

I think that's a fair question, and even though it was posed rhetorically, I'll venture an answer from my perspective: I see it much as the same thing as preparing a will or proper estate planning. You could die without one, and leave it to the courts to decide where your assets and benefits go. But that's really giving up all control with the misguided hope that the laws or judge in your locality will agree with or even know what your intentions were. Similarly in a divorce, the likelihood that the laws in your area will align with what a couple would have chosen are slim and none, and certainly divorcing couples often have differing views on what should happen. Putting it all in writing when the parties can have a less emotionally charged and non-confrontational discussion helps prevent disagreements down the road, and takes the guesswork out of how things should be split if the marriage doesn't work out for whatever reason (just like an estate plan takes the guesswork out after a death).

I think you're right, it's less than an "all in" mentality, but in the cold statistics of reality, nearly half of all marriages will end in divorce. Those are really high odds, I think it reasonable to realize any of us could be the one out of two who finds themselves on the wrong side of the odds and therefore have a plan rather than leaving it to the whims of local laws or court, which are decidedly imperfect and often even unfair, as pointed out by some of the stories here.

Ha, at the time of my divorce I had $6500/month in take home pay, and according to the state formulas and with no prenup, was ordered to send my ex-wife $6400/month in alimony and child support and maintaining the marital residence for three years. For those challenged with math, that left me exactly $100/month to live on in my own apartment and for my two kids with me half-time for three years, in expensive Wash. DC. That is no exaggeration. And that was all on top of splitting the assets and my future pension and social security 50-50. This despite the strong evidence that my wife was cheating on me, and it was her who drove the divorce, but none of that matters as far as the law is concerned. Of course I howled that it was unfair and impossible to sustain, and the lawyers and judge all told me what a "good" deal I was getting according to the law and had better settle. So, I lived off credit cards for three years, and thanked God when it was finally over.

That is just all kinds of wrong.

I guess the only thing I disagree with is that while the end result of not having a pre-nup versus not having a will might be the same (the law dictates payouts), the difference is I don't have a choice about death.  I do have a choice to get married and maybe the reason that 50% of the marriages end in divorce is because of pre-nups.  I know it is hard to show, but I'd be curious to see how many marriages with vs without end in divorce. The best I could find is this article: http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/03/21/the-power-of-the-prenup/if-you-want-a-prenup-you-dont-want-marriage

Who knows. Maybe the lack of commitment in financial means is one of the reasons for the increased rate.  I don't really know.

[2527]

If people worked as hard at maintaining a marriage worth having as they do at building their net worth, maybe there wouldn't be so many divorces.

By marriage worth having, I don't mean some idealist fairy tale, although if you can pull that off, great.  I mean a marriage where a person concludes, "if we get divorced, we'll just be trading one set of problems for another set of problems."

[Insanity]

If people worked as hard at maintaining a marriage worth having as they do at building their net worth, maybe there wouldn't be so many divorces.

By marriage worth having, I don't mean some idealist fairy tale, although if you can pull that off, great.  I mean a marriage where a person concludes, "if we get divorced, we'll just be trading one set of problems for another set of problems."

Isn't that true by definition?  life is about a trade off of pros and cons.

[Mori]

This has been a very interesting read and thank you everyone for sharing!

It is amazing to me what some of you have gone through and you still have practical/positive attitudes. I'm encouraged. Single, but encouraged. :)

[Insanity]

This has been a very interesting read and thank you everyone for sharing!

It is amazing to me what some of you have gone through and you still have practical/positive attitudes. I'm encouraged. Single, but encouraged. :)

Sometimes what you'll find is the marriage ending is cause enough to have a positive attitude.

[FiguringItOut]

This thread both scares me and gives me hope.  I wil be starting divorce this coming spring/summer.   Keeping my fingers crossed that I will come out of it in one piece (mentaly, emotionally, and financially).

[iris lily]

...and it just became a pain in the ass to manage and do budgeting.  I also hated the concept of separating who had to pay what bills.  I found it easier to pool our money...

I know, I can't imagine keeping that kind of accounting. I turned over all household bill paying, accounting, financial paperwork to DH. He is very good at it, he is precise and timely.

But it could be said that for me, keeping a stronger hand in daily bill paying would be a good thing. I don't know what our gas bill is for these past few cold months, for instance. Still, I can grab the checkbook any time and see how much we pay for what.

[DollarBill]

This is one of the main reason why some of you have been screwed by the court system.

Title IV_D funding has caused great grief to those families trying to get a "fair hearing" in family court. The Family Court Judges, attorney ad litems, psychologist benefit from Title IV-D funding. The funds are given to the states on collection of child support. There is no incentive to grant the "best parent" custody - but to examine which parent can pay child support. This is important as every dollar of child support collected is matched by Title IV-D funding. The funding going to the States are not used to enforce visitation rights of the non-custodial parent, but going into areas of the State that are not accounted for.

Here is a website to petition Title IV-D funding.
http://www.petition2congress.com/10413/family-court-corruption-to-abolish-title-iv-d-funding-from-states/

I've also heard that some States are moving away from "No Fault Divorces" and going back to hearing cases where you can prove fault...but I'm sure that could get even uglier.

[jscott2135]

This thread both scares me and gives me hope.  I wil be starting divorce this coming spring/summer.   Keeping my fingers crossed that I will come out of it in one piece (mentaly, emotionally, and financially).

If I can give you any advice, it's just keep a level head, which is really hard during something that can get emotional.  But don't get drug into the pettiness that so many people do, keep your sights set on the long term and just stay level headed.  It is possible to come out both emotionally and financially intact as long as you both can just keep emotions at bay as much as possible!  There is life after divorce, sometimes a better and wiser life!

[FiguringItOut]

This thread both scares me and gives me hope.  I wil be starting divorce this coming spring/summer.   Keeping my fingers crossed that I will come out of it in one piece (mentaly, emotionally, and financially).

If I can give you any advice, it's just keep a level head, which is really hard during something that can get emotional.  But don't get drug into the pettiness that so many people do, keep your sights set on the long term and just stay level headed.  It is possible to come out both emotionally and financially intact as long as you both can just keep emotions at bay as much as possible!  There is life after divorce, sometimes a better and wiser life!

Tank you JScott2135
I definitely hope to do just that.  How the things will turn out in reality only time will tell.

[Ambergris]

This thread both scares me and gives me hope.  I wil be starting divorce this coming spring/summer.   Keeping my fingers crossed that I will come out of it in one piece (mentaly, emotionally, and financially).

If I can give you any advice, it's just keep a level head, which is really hard during something that can get emotional.  But don't get drug into the pettiness that so many people do, keep your sights set on the long term and just stay level headed.  It is possible to come out both emotionally and financially intact as long as you both can just keep emotions at bay as much as possible!  There is life after divorce, sometimes a better and wiser life!

Tank you JScott2135
I definitely hope to do just that.  How the things will turn out in reality only time will tell.

Divorce really doesn't have to be devastating.  Mine was just rather sad: we had no kids and were literally going in different directions (different continents, in fact) and we both just decided it was over.  If you can keep things amicable and avoid blame, it can be a quick, relatively easy process.

Weirdly enough, my ex actually left rather happy.  This was pre-mustachian times for me, but I had done a reasonable job of managing the finances and he had never bothered to check himself.  As it was, he left with a funded IRA and some investments: he remarked that it was much more than he thought he had and looked rather pleased. ;)

[iwasjustwondering]

We were totally broke, and I couldn't figure out why.  In the first few months apart, I had my paycheck deposited in our joint account, while he would have his put into his own account.  He would take money from the joint account whenever he wanted, even though I had full custody of the kids and paid 100% of their support.  I just didn't understand the way things were supposed to work.  I had such guilt over leaving.

In the year after we split, I lived in the house for the first six months and paid the mortgage on my own.  He lived in the house the second six months, and did NOT pay the mortgage, and let it go to a short sale.  He then claimed the mortgage deduction on his taxes. 

There was a lot more, but it's all good.  It took me two years to pay off the $10,000 lawyer fee, but I got out of the marriage.  Once I woke up and opened my own bank account, all of a sudden, I had money in the bank at the end of the month, even though my take-home was exactly the same as it had been when I lived with x, and even though x's paycheck was originally going into the joint account.  I still sometimes wonder where the money actually went.  He accused me of siphoning money off into a secret account, which make me wonder if that's what he was doing.  But he just cashed in the last $20K from his retirement account.  So I doubt it.  My income has something like tripled since leaving him; his has decreased slightly.

[hybrid]

I was talking to a buddy of mine last night who is about to go through a divorce and we were talking about the financial impact, as he is facing both alimony and child support, both of which I feel his wife and daughter are entitled to (the only question is how much alimony and for how long).

For a guy who is always living paycheck to paycheck, this is going to be quite a setback. I really feel for him even though he dug his own hole.

[DoubleDown]

@FrugalZony and FiguringItOut: Sorry to hear you're both facing separation/divorce. It sucks, but hang in there and I promise you'll get through it!

[FiguringItOut]

Thank you DoubleDown.

[DollarBill]

I for one will be taking the path to MGTOW. It just doesn't make much sense any more to get married. 

[MrCash]

As someone who is about to get married in a month, this is a depressing thread.

[Cheddar Stacker]

As someone who is about to get married in a month, this is a depressing thread.

I've been married over 10 years, we dated for about 7 years before we got married, and I still love her like I did when we first met. Not all stories end this way, and yours doesn't have to. It's good to be prepared for divorce and take some financial precautions (I'm more in the savings and job qualifications camp, less concerned about a prenup), but don't dwell on it and certainly don't let these stories depress you.

Congrats on the upcoming vows, and good luck with your life together.

[ender]

Do people not discuss things like "will both parents work?" or "will we homeschool?" or "how many kids do we want?" decently early in serious relationships?

Perhaps this should be its own thread but it seems like a lot of these issues could be somewhat mitigated simply by being on the same page about what family life looks like before it's "too late." Or maybe I'm naive and young :)

[puglogic]

As someone who is about to get married in a month, this is a depressing thread.

It doesn't have to be at all.   My marriage is in its 12th year and showing no signs of going bad, mostly because we talked everything out before we married, and made sure we were compatible.

If you have not worked out yet how you're going to "do" finances, whether/when to have kids, etc., then you have something to worry about.   Have those conversations now....you won't regret it.

[MrCash]

Yeah, I'm not worried about it at all.  I just find the subject very depressing.

[mxt0133]

I agree that discussing the big things like, kids, finances, ect is a must before marriage.  But at the same time people do change and who knows what the future holds.  I have known my wife for almost 17 years, been married for almost 5, and we have changed so much since we meet that it's impossible to have know the troubles we have/will encountered.  What we try to do is communicate with each other.  We are still learning how to talk to each other, things change when kids, finances, and family issues all come at once, the stress it puts on a relationship is crazy.  But we have been together this long and there is a reason why we are still together, even though we sometimes loose sight of that during a heated debate.

[happy]

It doesn't have to be at all.   My marriage is in its 12th year and showing no signs of going bad, mostly because we talked everything out before we married, and made sure we were compatible.

If you have not worked out yet how you're going to "do" finances, whether/when to have kids, etc., then you have something to worry about.   Have those conversations now....you won't regret it.

Definitely have those conversations, but there are other "cross checks" you could/should do, e.g. is there any difference in what the partner says they think/are/do and how they  actually behave?  Do they treat others differently to you i.e. everyone thinks they are wonderful but this is not borne out in their partnered relationship? Check out how their parents/family relationships work and what are the blackspots and hidden expectations in these?  Some folks truly are transition people and can leave behind dysfunctional families, but often there is regression/stuff comes out under stress. If they come from an American apple pie family, still look at the dynamics and values and make sure you can live with them. Ask your family and good friends honestly what they think about the match.

Personally I don't think you can ever know someone perfectly in advance and there is some element of luck involved. (sorry if thats scary).

[CommonCents]

It doesn't have to be at all.   My marriage is in its 12th year and showing no signs of going bad, mostly because we talked everything out before we married, and made sure we were compatible.

If you have not worked out yet how you're going to "do" finances, whether/when to have kids, etc., then you have something to worry about.   Have those conversations now....you won't regret it.

Definitely have those conversations, but there are other "cross checks" you could/should do, e.g. is there any difference in what the partner says they think/are/do and how they  actually behave?  Do they treat others differently to you i.e. everyone thinks they are wonderful but this is not borne out in their partnered relationship? Check out how their parents/family relationships work and what are the blackspots and hidden expectations in these?  Some folks truly are transition people and can leave behind dysfunctional families, but often there is regression/stuff comes out under stress. If they come from an American apple pie family, still look at the dynamics and values and make sure you can live with them. Ask your family and good friends honestly what they think about the match.

Personally I don't think you can ever know someone perfectly in advance and there is some element of luck involved. (sorry if thats scary).

This is very true.  I lived with an ex for over three years, and in retrospect should have been more concerned earlier about the:
- Lack of friends
- Way he treated his mom (swearing and hanging up on her = not cool)
- Discrepancies in stories
- Belief that everyone else was subpar to him
- Temper

It's like the pot that slowly boils and kills the frog, crabs, or lobsters.  Don't move forward so rapidly that you ignore signs or feel like you are stuck and can't leave easily.  Luckily, I walked away after he cheated on me on an business trip and he moved overseas to be with that girl.  Turned out later he cheated on his college gf to start dating me.  And that he lied about his entire history (including how his dad died, and house he showed me he lived in).  He got married (to someone else) 2.5 years later, and is now, less than 5 years later, in the process of getting divorced as his wife didn't think it cool that he sleep around with his best friend's wife.  Oh and the classic narcissistic personality got to her.

Ask your friends for their honest opinions.  Be willing to listen to the negatives, and don't hold it against them later, even if you stay with the person.  If either of us had done this early on, it might have saved us a lot of grief. 

[Elaine]

Do people not discuss things like "will both parents work?" or "will we homeschool?" or "how many kids do we want?" decently early in serious relationships?

Perhaps this should be its own thread but it seems like a lot of these issues could be somewhat mitigated simply by being on the same page about what family life looks like before it's "too late." Or maybe I'm naive and young :)

I have been wondering this a lot lately. I would love to know what the average couple has and hasn't discussed prior to getting married. I feel like my SO (of 5+ years) and I really talk through everything, and continue to revisit various topics from time to time (from kids, to housework, to finance, lifestyle, goals, belief systems, what happens if one of us is hospitalized long term, who might stay at home in the future, where we want to live, elder care for our parents, etc.). I do realize that this isn't some iron clad divorce armor, but it seems like a lot of people I know don't really talk about the serious/unpleasant things with their partners. One friend of mine mentioned that she didn't know how her HUSBAND felt about abortion. One guy I know said he didn't know his wife was 20k in debt when he married her. I know another woman who married a guy before he finished his PhD. They never discussed timelines for anything, or who would do what work at home- so now she financially supports the entire family, does all the housework, and he's on year 3 of writing his dissertation and not working. I can't help but think: didn't you talk about this stuff? How did this not come up? It boggles my mind, maybe we should start a thread but I can't think of how to phrase the topic.

[randymarsh]

One friend of mine mentioned that she didn't know how her HUSBAND felt about abortion.

Wow, I know how some coworkers feel about abortion.

[gobius]

That is just all kinds of wrong.

I guess the only thing I disagree with is that while the end result of not having a pre-nup versus not having a will might be the same (the law dictates payouts), the difference is I don't have a choice about death.  I do have a choice to get married and maybe the reason that 50% of the marriages end in divorce is because of pre-nups.  I know it is hard to show, but I'd be curious to see how many marriages with vs without end in divorce. The best I could find is this article: http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/03/21/the-power-of-the-prenup/if-you-want-a-prenup-you-dont-want-marriage

Who knows. Maybe the lack of commitment in financial means is one of the reasons for the increased rate.  I don't really know.

How many people do you think get pre-nups?  I'd be willing to bet that it's a minority (5-10 percent).  I think you are mixing up the causation.  I would say that a high divorce rate, along with the breadwinner getting his/her clock cleaned, causes the popularity of pre-nups.  The stories I've heard about divorce from my coworkers (mind you that 100% of them thought they wouldn't get divorced) make many of these stories seem easy in comparison, and hearing these stories would half-convince almost anyone to get a pre-nup.

Also, if pre-nups caused divorce, wouldn't the higher earner usually be more likely to file?  Men still average more money than women in aggregate, yet women still file for divorce more often.

I would say a higher divorce rate has to do with society not holding marriage as sacred and divorce as taboo as it used to.  No-fault marriages became more common too.  Women also are more independent and can get out of a marriage rather than staying with the guy because he's a "good provider".  Maybe people just aren't as easy to please as they used to be and hold more lofty expectations of marriage and life in general.  So I would say that a higher divorce rate isn't necessarily a bad thing or a good thing.

[ender]

Do people not discuss things like "will both parents work?" or "will we homeschool?" or "how many kids do we want?" decently early in serious relationships?

Perhaps this should be its own thread but it seems like a lot of these issues could be somewhat mitigated simply by being on the same page about what family life looks like before it's "too late." Or maybe I'm naive and young :)

I have been wondering this a lot lately. I would love to know what the average couple has and hasn't discussed prior to getting married. I feel like my SO (of 5+ years) and I really talk through everything, and continue to revisit various topics from time to time (from kids, to housework, to finance, lifestyle, goals, belief systems, what happens if one of us is hospitalized long term, who might stay at home in the future, where we want to live, elder care for our parents, etc.). I do realize that this isn't some iron clad divorce armor, but it seems like a lot of people I know don't really talk about the serious/unpleasant things with their partners. One friend of mine mentioned that she didn't know how her HUSBAND felt about abortion. One guy I know said he didn't know his wife was 20k in debt when he married her. I know another woman who married a guy before he finished his PhD. They never discussed timelines for anything, or who would do what work at home- so now she financially supports the entire family, does all the housework, and he's on year 3 of writing his dissertation and not working. I can't help but think: didn't you talk about this stuff? How did this not come up? It boggles my mind, maybe we should start a thread but I can't think of how to phrase the topic.

Maybe it's my INTJ personality but my current SO and I talked about nearly all of that stuff... before we even were officially dating but just going on dates.

I didn't want to fall for someone who had completely different life interest/direction. Some things are just easier and being aligned on major life things is definitely one of those things.

I'd recommend anyone curious about "what to talk about" to look at this list of questions. The first two sections are very specific to Christians but the rest is generalizable to any serious relationship.

[Taryl]

I never understand why everyone is in such a hurry for happily never after - other than for the children of course - but that's another decision that usually isn't well thought out.   I was single for years and so darned happy.  Now, married to the man of my dreams - really!  Still wish I was single - with him, just not married.  Why?? Who knows??  If it weren't for the money issues, I'd suggest we live in two house - next door to each other.  Together but separate.

[randymarsh]

Maybe people just aren't as easy to please as they used to be and hold more lofty expectations of marriage and life in general.  So I would say that a higher divorce rate isn't necessarily a bad thing or a good thing.

I was listening to a Freakanomics podcast about marriage a few weeks ago and it touched on this. The one guy suggested that there were more marriages of convenience or marriages based on the man earning a good income in past decades. Whereas now people prioritize a partner who shares their interests and values, since both individuals can usually earn a decent income.

[gobius]

Maybe people just aren't as easy to please as they used to be and hold more lofty expectations of marriage and life in general.  So I would say that a higher divorce rate isn't necessarily a bad thing or a good thing.

I was listening to a Freakanomics podcast about marriage a few weeks ago and it touched on this. The one guy suggested that there were more marriages of convenience or marriages based on the man earning a good income in past decades. Whereas now people prioritize a partner who shares their interests and values, since both individuals can usually earn a decent income.

That makes sense, and with both people able to make a decent income, each is more free to leave if things turn south.  Personally I like this better than previous times where you were stuck with a decision you made in your youth (or if you go far enough back, a decision your parents made for you when you were really young). 

I also think divorce laws have become too punitive to the breadwinner, since as I mentioned before I have heard a lot of pretty bad stories.  I'm not against alimony for SAHM's or child support, but sometimes the law gets outright ridiculous.

[golfer44]

I also hated the concept of separating who had to pay what bills.  I found it easier to pool our money.  This isn't to say it is not possible or that it can't be done easily - but my fear was if she decided to stop paying some bills or did pay them all, how would I know?   Or how would I handle it if she stopped contributing to our joint account for bills?

You didn't trust her enough to pay bills and contribute to your account, so you decided to trust her with all your money?

Huh?

[Insanity]

I also hated the concept of separating who had to pay what bills.  I found it easier to pool our money.  This isn't to say it is not possible or that it can't be done easily - but my fear was if she decided to stop paying some bills or did pay them all, how would I know?   Or how would I handle it if she stopped contributing to our joint account for bills?

You didn't trust her enough to pay bills and contribute to your account, so you decided to trust her with all your money?

Huh?

No one said emotions are rational.  But the thoughts were surrounding if an issue in the marriage came up and things started to deteriorate.

Hey, she didn't like the way I managed the bills.  I never updated the checkbook because I always did on-line banking. So, she took it over for awhile and then got tired of doing it so now I do it again.

[golfer44]

Hey, all good. Whatever works for you guys!

[Fonzico]

Wow, this thread has been quite a read. My condolences to everyone who has had a rough time of it.

Since this seems to be a fairly poorly represented view (that of the happily married, pre-nup-less) I'll share my own situation. I'm sure some of you will consider me hopelessly naive.. and maybe I am. Things seem to be going well so far though, and what else can you really say with certainty?

DH and I have been married for a couple years now, but we dated for nine years prior to this. I recommend this wholeheartedly - I really know the guy, and he knows me. We are the best of friends, and are admittedly lucky that we grew together, not apart, particularly since we started dated when we were so young.

We've both taken turns supporting the other, mostly while going to school. We're now DINKs, and plan to keep it that way, which I would say is a huge advantage - nothing wrong with having kids if you want to, but not having to deal with the stress/decisions/financial strain/energy drain that comes along with that gives you more resources to put towards your relationship and the life you're building together.

We were dirt poor pretty much up until last year when the whole post-secondary schooling thing was done with, so we've lived through that together, and neither of us brought much by way of assets with us to the party. We technically have separate accounts, but I manage our finances so I've always had access to his. I try to keep him in the loop, and he's involved in any major decisions, but mostly he's not terribly interested, and trusts me to handle things. Fortunately for him, I am worthy of that trust.


We talk frequently about our goals and values, and stay very much on the same page. If for some reason we ever did split up, existing assets would be split 50/50. Neither of us has really given anything up for the other's benefit career wise, so alimony would not be an issue. Our pay is pretty similar right now, and if one of us ended up making more, good for them for succeeding in that - no reason why the other should benefit from that outside of a relationship.


All that being said, I definitely understand the cynicism coming from many of you. Call me cocky, but I don't see great chances for long term success for many of the other couples I know, and I think many of them should be concerned about the sorts of things that have been brought up here. I just don't think it applies to me ;)

[Dr.Vibrissae]

We were dirt poor pretty much up until last year when the whole post-secondary schooling thing was done with, so we've lived through that together, and neither of us brought much by way of assets with us to the party. We technically have separate accounts, but I manage our finances so I've always had access to his. I try to keep him in the loop, and he's involved in any major decisions, but mostly he's not terribly interested, and trusts me to handle things. Fortunately for him, I am worthy of that trust.

This situation is very similar to my own (met and dated for many years when young, married when neither has assets, I've handled most finances since before marraige)

I've pondered this thread off and on as it pops back onto the radar, and I think age and premarital assets likely affects the attitude toward pre-nups and whether they are prudent/desirable.  When the Mr. and I were married neither one of us had much skin in the financial game.  It was uncertain whether one or both of us might go back to school, we both thought we might want kids, but hadn't fully committed, we weren't settled in any one geographic location, we had new jobs (with a good ability to translocate) but no assets beyond two pretty crappy second hand vehicles we'd each inherited from grandparents.

Any pre-nup would have been wildly speculative at best, and so it wouldn't even have occurred to me to look into one.

[HSH Princess Grace]

Someone posted earlier in this tread that it was mostly men posting.  I agree that it is most often men who pay the highest price (financial and otherwise) in a divorce.  Despite appearances it's not about men versus women.  It's about financially responsible versus financially irresponsible people. 

I am a woman.  I have been divorced twice.  Both time I have had to split MY hard earned net worth with my ex-husbands.  Why did this happen?  Because both time I came into the marriages with greater assets and continued to save/invest my earned assets while they spent theirs frivolously.  In the divorce we split up what should have been my money, while their money had all been dissipated on worthless, self-indulgent choices.  In the second divorce, despite the fact that I stayed home to raise our child, I had to split the proceeds of a home I bought with premarital funds.  Meanwhile, I got zero alimony, have no income and my ex-husband makes $300k a year.

Prior to the first marriage I had a net worth of $400k.  My first husband had a net worth which was a negative number.  After the divorce we each had a net worth of $200k.  Prior to my second marriage I had a net worth of $300k.  My second husband had a net worth of zero.  After the divorce we each had a net worth of $100k because we each spent $50 on attorneys.  I have scraped and clawed my way up back up to a net worth of $400k, which is where I was in my 20s.  I would be retired by now if I had never gotten married.  I will never get married again.

The only thing more damaging than getting married to someone without a prenup is having children with a person  (with or without getting married.)  Prenups won't protect you from child related issues.  If you are the more responsible spouse the child will be used against you as a financial weapon forever.   

My children have been raised in a Mustachian lifestyle and are aware of these dangers.  My son has committed to only get married with a prenup and plans to make sure he has no children.  I will suggest to my daughter that she have a child via a sperm donor prior to any marriage, and that she also not get married without a prenup.

[nottoolatetostart]

This thread is a bit off-putting as a sahm.  Actually in my head I cursing at most of you and calling you lots of nasty names, to be honest. 

Damn right I should get half our net worth if we divorce.  Neither of us brought anything in to the marriage (scratch that... H brought nothing and I brought a paid off car) as we married out of college.  Why the hell is he more entitled to that money than I am?  He couldn't work the job he is working and make the money he is making if I weren't at home doing all the child rearing, cooking, cleaning, etc.  We made the joint decision that I stay at home, and he agreed because of the benefits to him and our kids.

If we get divorced after I have been at home for ten or 20 years, yes he should pay me temporary alimony.  I have an engineering degree so decent income potential but I can't just jump back into a technical (or any) field after a decade at home.  Again, joint decision that I stay home, he knew the potential consequences ahead of time.

+1 sister

I think the other thing that disturbs me about this thread is the "money over people" attitude. Although this is an ER forum, I would put forth the idea that money should not be the most important thing you accumulate in life.  As a SAHM, I would have dramatic financial changes if my husband wanted a divorce, but my biggest regret wouldn't be the loss of net worth or lifestyle. We see on this forum that many people live happy lives on "poverty" levels of spending. My regrets and worries would be for my marriage, for my children, and for my spouse.  To quote Grandpa George in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (2005) "There's plenty of money out there. They print more every day. But this [family], there's only five of them in the whole world, and that's all there's ever going to be. Only a dummy would give this up for something as common as money. Are you a dummy? " *quote changed for relevance.   

Of course sometimes divorce (and other bad things) happen to good people. The money is the easiest thing to fix. The hurt, pain, and sadness is much harder. Ask yourself what would MMM do?  He's already answered that:

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/07/10/if-i-woke-up-broke/

+1 to this. Great quote from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. DH and I each make more than 6 figures. He is making more because he puts more into his career than I can as a Mom with a toddler and another on the way (I'm just in maintain mode for the time being). If I were to be a SAHM at some point, I would demand my 50% of the assets we accumulated together as it is half mine (he maintains his single man money in his own accounts and never commingled with our joint assets...it's not even in our FI calculations). I might need temporary alimony...but if I filed divorce from him (assuming it was something I just wanted, not because he hit me or cheated on me (which he doesn't), then I don't want alimony. It would be my choice to leave. I'm a big girl. If he left me because he "felt" like it, you better believe I'd take him to the cleaners. More out my own anger that he did this to our family. 

However, my biggest issue and fear is the family dynamic. I don't give a damn about money at the end of the day, even though I might participate in this forum. I already feel like we have more than enough. My number one priority in life is my marriage because it actually feeds our quality of life, children's well being and our net worth. If I got divorced, I would feel like I lost everything already....who gives a flip about money?   

[Bigote]

I will suggest to my daughter that she have a child via a sperm donor prior to any marriage, and that she also not get married without a prenup.

Forgive me, but that seems a pretty extreme reaction to your poor choices.    What if you taught her to make better choices in a mate instead?   

[countdown]

I had an early marriage that ended with no money and no alimony- it didn't even occur to me as an option. Hubby had 2 prior marriages, also ending with asset-free amicable divorces. These all happened before kids, assets, or high-paying jobs. We knew each other for 8-9 yrs before getting married and went into this with the purpose of raising a family together. Because I got super into pf about 4 years ago, we've also managed to accumulate a modest stache. If (god forbid) something happened to one of us, the survivor would likely not legally remarry or would use a prenup to protect assets for our kids. So far, we've been happily married and best friends for 5.5 years and work every day to continue growing together.

[CommonCents]

I will suggest to my daughter that she have a child via a sperm donor prior to any marriage, and that she also not get married without a prenup.

Forgive me, but that seems a pretty extreme reaction to your poor choices.    What if you taught her to make better choices in a mate instead?

+1

[Beridian]

This thread is a bit off-putting as a sahm.  Actually in my head I cursing at most of you and calling you lots of nasty names, to be honest. 

Damn right I should get half our net worth if we divorce.  Neither of us brought anything in to the marriage (scratch that... H brought nothing and I brought a paid off car) as we married out of college.  Why the hell is he more entitled to that money than I am?  He couldn't work the job he is working and make the money he is making if I weren't at home doing all the child rearing, cooking, cleaning, etc.  We made the joint decision that I stay at home, and he agreed because of the benefits to him and our kids.

If we get divorced after I have been at home for ten or 20 years, yes he should pay me temporary alimony.  I have an engineering degree so decent income potential but I can't just jump back into a technical (or any) field after a decade at home.  Again, joint decision that I stay home, he knew the potential consequences ahead of time.

+1 sister

I think the other thing that disturbs me about this thread is the "money over people" attitude. Although this is an ER forum, I would put forth the idea that money should not be the most important thing you accumulate in life.  As a SAHM, I would have dramatic financial changes if my husband wanted a divorce, but my biggest regret wouldn't be the loss of net worth or lifestyle. We see on this forum that many people live happy lives on "poverty" levels of spending. My regrets and worries would be for my marriage, for my children, and for my spouse.  To quote Grandpa George in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (2005) "There's plenty of money out there. They print more every day. But this [family], there's only five of them in the whole world, and that's all there's ever going to be. Only a dummy would give this up for something as common as money. Are you a dummy? " *quote changed for relevance.   

Of course sometimes divorce (and other bad things) happen to good people. The money is the easiest thing to fix. The hurt, pain, and sadness is much harder. Ask yourself what would MMM do?  He's already answered that:

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/07/10/if-i-woke-up-broke/

+1 to this. Great quote from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. DH and I each make more than 6 figures. He is making more because he puts more into his career than I can as a Mom with a toddler and another on the way (I'm just in maintain mode for the time being). If I were to be a SAHM at some point, I would demand my 50% of the assets we accumulated together as it is half mine (he maintains his single man money in his own accounts and never commingled with our joint assets...it's not even in our FI calculations). I might need temporary alimony...but if I filed divorce from him (assuming it was something I just wanted, not because he hit me or cheated on me (which he doesn't), then I don't want alimony. It would be my choice to leave. I'm a big girl. If he left me because he "felt" like it, you better believe I'd take him to the cleaners. More out my own anger that he did this to our family. 

However, my biggest issue and fear is the family dynamic. I don't give a damn about money at the end of the day, even though I might participate in this forum. I already feel like we have more than enough. My number one priority in life is my marriage because it actually feeds our quality of life, children's well being and our net worth. If I got divorced, I would feel like I lost everything already....who gives a flip about money?

-1  To this. 

I too have been following this thread for some time.  One thing that I think is lost on many happily married folks is that divorce is often thrust upon people (myself included) many times completely against our will and sometimes out of the blue.  Getting married is a mutual decision, where as one party in a marriage can decide to file for divorce and there is nothing the other party can do about it.   Another thing that I think many of the younger people fail to realize is that people change over time.   That wonderful soul mate you have today could be a completely different person 15 or 20 years down the road (so may you, I might add).  And when you are twenty years or so into a marriage, that's when the financial hit can be devastating.

I still see the value in a nice loving relationship, but I have been awakened to the enormous risks of a long term legal marriage.  Why do I have to become legally and financially entangled with another person just to have a relationship with them?  Its like having a permanent business partner that you are forever obligated to, only the legal entanglements are not determined by straight-up contract law, there is a legacy of presumptions and biases that apply to marital law which can result in great injustices.   

PS - In my opinion people who say money is no big deal are people who usually have plenty of money and have not had to struggle to keep their heads above water.   When you work and sweat your life away for 40 years or so just to build a modest nest egg, when you are nearing the end of your working career, then you are forced to give half of it away PLUS support the other person for several more years, money tends to be a MUCH BIGGER DEAL.

[Vilgan]

@ All, wondering are there Mustachians who do not combine their incomes and keep their finances separate?  This could be the property or assets brought into the relationship, incomes and adding into a shared account for expenses, etc.

If you separate finances, how did you raise the topic and come to an agreement with your partner?  Also, interested if you don't mind sharing what motivated you to want to keep finances separate?  Thanks for sharing!

My fiance and I have been together 7 years now and will be getting a prenup before we get married this summer. We've always kept our finances separate and didn't want that to change when we get married. I'm not sure who will benefit the most in the long run (she has more inheritance, my future earnings are likely higher) but the main thing is the peace of mind it brings now. She's not a crazy spender (saves roughly 25%) but she does have certain spending habits that would really bug me if it was "our" money she was spending rather than "her" money. Right now I can maybe poke her a bit about it and help her question if she REALLY needs it or whatever, but at the end of the day it doesn't really impact me much so I don't care. Having it separate has reduced the potential for conflict about money significantly.

As for how we got there... when we started dating we both had our own income stream and always kept it separate. When we started talking about getting married, we discussed how we wanted to do finances going forward and we both liked the fact they were separate and wanted to keep it that way. The house will be 50/50 but food, utilities, etc are calculated and split and the person who paid less that month transfers money to the other person to make up the difference. There was a period I was going to school and had insufficient income and she loaned me a bit of money to help me through the last bit rather than taking out a school loan and we tracked that as a 0% loan that I paid off once I finished.

It might sound a bit cold but I think it has been a great way to remove a potential stressor from the relationship. We ARE in it together so if something did happen such that one person couldn't work or something we'd revisit this approach. But until something like that happens, we are two working adults that are happy to avoid the potential stress/arguments/whatever that can result from merging finances.

[totoro]

The only thing more damaging than getting married to someone without a prenup is having children with a person  (with or without getting married.)  Prenups won't protect you from child related issues.  If you are the more responsible spouse the child will be used against you as a financial weapon forever.   

My children have been raised in a Mustachian lifestyle and are aware of these dangers.  My son has committed to only get married with a prenup and plans to make sure he has no children.  I will suggest to my daughter that she have a child via a sperm donor prior to any marriage, and that she also not get married without a prenup.

While I have some sympathy for your situation I would say that what you have taught your children and brought into their lives is not something I can admire. 

Shit happens.  You need to get past the shit you can't control and not let it colour your world to the point you live in the stink because the only ones who suffer there are the ones you care about who are standing with you. 

What I do know is that a kid who believes that relationships are doomed to fail will more than likely live the self-fulfilling prophecy out.  The fact is that happy relationships and marriages exist and the skill set you are teaching is not likely to lead in that direction.  You aren't protecting your kids, you are setting them up for failure imo.

[CommonCents]

This thread is a bit off-putting as a sahm.  Actually in my head I cursing at most of you and calling you lots of nasty names, to be honest. 

Damn right I should get half our net worth if we divorce.  Neither of us brought anything in to the marriage (scratch that... H brought nothing and I brought a paid off car) as we married out of college.  Why the hell is he more entitled to that money than I am?  He couldn't work the job he is working and make the money he is making if I weren't at home doing all the child rearing, cooking, cleaning, etc.  We made the joint decision that I stay at home, and he agreed because of the benefits to him and our kids.

If we get divorced after I have been at home for ten or 20 years, yes he should pay me temporary alimony.  I have an engineering degree so decent income potential but I can't just jump back into a technical (or any) field after a decade at home.  Again, joint decision that I stay home, he knew the potential consequences ahead of time.

+1 sister

I think the other thing that disturbs me about this thread is the "money over people" attitude. Although this is an ER forum, I would put forth the idea that money should not be the most important thing you accumulate in life.  As a SAHM, I would have dramatic financial changes if my husband wanted a divorce, but my biggest regret wouldn't be the loss of net worth or lifestyle. We see on this forum that many people live happy lives on "poverty" levels of spending. My regrets and worries would be for my marriage, for my children, and for my spouse.  To quote Grandpa George in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (2005) "There's plenty of money out there. They print more every day. But this [family], there's only five of them in the whole world, and that's all there's ever going to be. Only a dummy would give this up for something as common as money. Are you a dummy? " *quote changed for relevance.   

Of course sometimes divorce (and other bad things) happen to good people. The money is the easiest thing to fix. The hurt, pain, and sadness is much harder. Ask yourself what would MMM do?  He's already answered that:

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/07/10/if-i-woke-up-broke/

+1 to this. Great quote from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. DH and I each make more than 6 figures. He is making more because he puts more into his career than I can as a Mom with a toddler and another on the way (I'm just in maintain mode for the time being). If I were to be a SAHM at some point, I would demand my 50% of the assets we accumulated together as it is half mine (he maintains his single man money in his own accounts and never commingled with our joint assets...it's not even in our FI calculations). I might need temporary alimony...but if I filed divorce from him (assuming it was something I just wanted, not because he hit me or cheated on me (which he doesn't), then I don't want alimony. It would be my choice to leave. I'm a big girl. If he left me because he "felt" like it, you better believe I'd take him to the cleaners. More out my own anger that he did this to our family. 

However, my biggest issue and fear is the family dynamic. I don't give a damn about money at the end of the day, even though I might participate in this forum. I already feel like we have more than enough. My number one priority in life is my marriage because it actually feeds our quality of life, children's well being and our net worth. If I got divorced, I would feel like I lost everything already....who gives a flip about money?

-1  To this. 

I too have been following this thread for some time.  One thing that I think is lost on many happily married folks is that divorce is often thrust upon people (myself included) many times completely against our will and sometimes out of the blue.  Getting married is a mutual decision, where as one party in a marriage can decide to file for divorce and there is nothing the other party can do about it.   Another thing that I think many of the younger people fail to realize is that people change over time.   That wonderful soul mate you have today could be a completely different person 15 or 20 years down the road (so may you, I might add).  And when you are twenty years or so into a marriage, that's when the financial hit can be devastating.

I still see the value in a nice loving relationship, but I have been awakened to the enormous risks of a long term legal marriage.  Why do I have to become legally and financially entangled with another person just to have a relationship with them?  Its like having a permanent business partner that you are forever obligated to, only the legal entanglements are not determined by straight-up contract law, there is a legacy of presumptions and biases that apply to marital law which can result in great injustices.   

PS - In my opinion people who say money is no big deal are people who usually have plenty of money and have not had to struggle to keep their heads above water.   When you work and sweat your life away for 40 years or so just to build a modest nest egg, when you are nearing the end of your working career, then you are forced to give half of it away PLUS support the other person for several more years, money tends to be a MUCH BIGGER DEAL.

Yes, it can come from out of the blue, but that is incredibly rare!  Teeny tiny percent rare.  Most of the time, people know there are problems they just don't think they are that bad.  I've never had a divorced friend who couldn't at least in retrospect see the issues that had been there.  Even the friend currently getting a divorce (initiated by his wife, not him) because his wife cheated on him with his best friend.

Agree people change over time - that's why I didn't get married young (when more changes are happening), waited till I was 32 and dated 4 years.  Statistically, I'm less likely to get divorced than someone who married under 25. 

When considering the financial hit, don't forget to compare yourself to where you would have been had you not married...without joint expense sharing, or someone to take care of laundry/meals so you could focus on getting ahead at work. 

You don't have to get legally entangled for a relationship (here in the states).  You just must, in order to be ethical, be upfront with each person you wish to date that you will never marry.  That's totally your perogative.  You just need to choose people that are ok with this particular requirement of yours.  My husband has a friend that feels this way after a divorce.  As long as he's not leading any women on and promising what he won't give, no harm no foul.

Finally, it can be straight up contract law if you have a fair prenup.  If you have an unfair prenup - well, I'm sorry, why would you do that?  That's shady and not right.  And you can avoid these "injustices" you describe, with more than just a prenup.  Don't have one partner stay at home if you don't like how the law will treat you afterwards.  If they say they want to, explain (before marriage and after) that is a complete deal breaker for you and that you will file for divorce if they don't work.  (Also don't swear to marry for "richer or poorer" since you don't mean it.)  Marriage is a contract and if you don't like the risks, don't accept the bet.

[DoubleDown]

I read an article the other day with a sentiment I generally agree with. It expressed the opinion that we shouldn't call marriages that are over "failed", but rather "ended." They used an example of a marriage that lasts 35 years, produces several children, and goes through a whole life of its own as a success, and one that eventually ran its course and ended. I like the idea of a marriage that can last 50+ years, but that may be a kind of quaint idea that doesn't exist too often in reality, at least not nowadays.

[MissStache]

*Runs screaming from this thread*

This makes me never want to get married.  Never ever ever!

[megalo]

I'm 38, divorced 3 years. While I have no financial complaints about my marriage or my divorce, I'll do things completely differently in the unlikely event I'm in a committed relationship in the future.

I got married at 23; we'd been together since I was 20. We combined our finances before we got married, and our approach was always that all income from our primary jobs was joint income. We had a long term plan for financial independence. That was mostly initiated by him, but I got on board pretty quickly. Different spending styles was never much of an issue. Well, there was that time I insisted on getting the bathroom renovated... I'm not sure he ever understood how important that was to me... But anyway, financially our divorce was just a reverse of our marriage. Everything had been "ours", so we split everything 50/50. After splitting the household stuff, purchases to fill out our separate households came out of the joint account.

Honestly, what with the emotional wreckage of our marriage ending, I found the details of splitting the assets to be FUN. I'll take any excuse to build a spreadsheet.

For any future relationship though - no way. My ex-husband and I built our net worth together, part of our shared mission. I had nothing (financially speaking) before my marriage; I have a nice-sized pile of something now. And it's MINE.

[HappierAtHome]

I read an article the other day with a sentiment I generally agree with. It expressed the opinion that we shouldn't call marriages that are over "failed", but rather "ended." They used an example of a marriage that lasts 35 years, produces several children, and goes through a whole life of its own as a success, and one that eventually ran its course and ended. I like the idea of a marriage that can last 50+ years, but that may be a kind of quaint idea that doesn't exist too often in reality, at least not nowadays.

I like "completed". Just because something ended, doesn't mean it wasn't a good thing while it lasted.