Diversity in the Personal Finance Community

[draco44]

I love me some MMM (I'm here after all), but I also enjoy checking out other personal finance resources to learn from people of many different backgrounds. For example, the Bitches Get Riches blog just dropped a post featuring a top 10 list of their favorite black personal finance bloggers:
http://www.bitchesgetriches.com/10-rad-black-money-experts-to-follow-right-the-hell-now/#more-6392

In a similar vein, here's an older list of 560 women-run blogs and podcasts on the topic of personal finance: https://womenwhomoney.com/female-personal-finance-blogs-podcasts/.

What personal finance resources do you enjoy that give you perspectives different from those you may find on the MMM blog or forum?

[WSUCoug1994]

Here is an interesting introductory article from my favorite blogger.....

https://ournextlife.com/2020/06/01/systemic-racism/

[draco44]

Here is an interesting introductory article from my favorite blogger.....

https://ournextlife.com/2020/06/01/systemic-racism/

Thanks for the read, @WSUCoug1994! I haven't read much of Our Next Life, but your link prompted me to remember being impressed by their older post "Of Boosts and Bootstraps // One Story, Two Ways" (https://ournextlife.com/2016/08/03/bootstraps/) on FIRE and privilege.

[Hula Hoop]

Thanks so much for this.  I'll check them out.

[Captain Cactus]

She does some good writing, no doubt about it.  I especially liked the blog post where Our Next Life called out the Frugalwoods for being dishonest and peddling FI porn. 

[ysette9]

She does some good writing, no doubt about it.  I especially liked the blog post where Our Next Life called out the Frugalwoods for being dishonest and peddling FI porn.

Can you share the link?

[Fish Sweet]

Here is an interesting introductory article from my favorite blogger.....

https://ournextlife.com/2020/06/01/systemic-racism/

Thank you for linking this post-- it was a good read, and provided more food for thought for me!

[Captain Cactus]

She does some good writing, no doubt about it.  I especially liked the blog post where Our Next Life called out the Frugalwoods for being dishonest and peddling FI porn.

Can you share the link?

https://ournextlife.com/2018/03/21/fire-blogger-manifesto/

This blog post came out about the same time the Frugalwoods started on the podcast circuit to promote their new book.  It doesn't call them out by name, but I highly suspect the blog post was at least partially inspired by the Frugalwood's lack of transparancy in their blog and in the (repetitive) podcasts... and "selling the FI homestead dream" without being transparent about their actual situation, husband's WFH income, etc...

 

[slappy]

She does some good writing, no doubt about it.  I especially liked the blog post where Our Next Life called out the Frugalwoods for being dishonest and peddling FI porn.

Can you share the link?

https://ournextlife.com/2018/03/21/fire-blogger-manifesto/

This blog post came out about the same time the Frugalwoods started on the podcast circuit to promote their new book.  It doesn't call them out by name, but I highly suspect the blog post was at least partially inspired by the Frugalwood's lack of transparancy in their blog and in the (repetitive) podcasts... and "selling the FI homestead dream" without being transparent about their actual situation, husband's WFH income, etc...

There's a thread somewhere around here that is ten pages long I think, all about the Frugalwoods lack of transparency on the blog. It probably came out around the same time as the book and this blog post.

Coincidentally, someone linked to it in the comments of the ONL post.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/welcome-to-the-forum/what's-up-with-the-frugalwoods/

[draco44]

I was looking for this earlier and just re-found it:
Here's a master list of finance blogs written by women, with the unusual and helpful feature of being organized into groups by both life situation:
DINK – Dual Income / No Kids
SINK – Single Income / No Kids
DIK – Dual Income / Kid(s)
SIK – Single Income / Kid(s)

As well as general theme:
    FIRE (Financial Independence, Retire Early)
    FIOR (Financial Independence, Optional Retirement – term coined by the wonderful Mad Money Monster)
    Debt Repayment
    General Finance
    Money Coaches
    Podcasts
    Books

Here's the list: https://treadlightlyretireearly.com/2018/01/18/meet-the-women-of-the-financial-independence-movement/

[Missy B]

She does some good writing, no doubt about it.  I especially liked the blog post where Our Next Life called out the Frugalwoods for being dishonest and peddling FI porn.

Can you share the link?

https://ournextlife.com/2018/03/21/fire-blogger-manifesto/

This blog post came out about the same time the Frugalwoods started on the podcast circuit to promote their new book.  It doesn't call them out by name, but I highly suspect the blog post was at least partially inspired by the Frugalwood's lack of transparancy in their blog and in the (repetitive) podcasts... and "selling the FI homestead dream" without being transparent about their actual situation, husband's WFH income, etc...

That was refreshing to read. I particularly appreciated her commenting on the practise of stating % savings without saying what your salary is. It's a practise I've come to dislike deeply. It both lets someone brag about their savings, but be coy about what their earnings are, so the reality of their situation is completely opague. All the while saying 'if we can do it, anyone can'. Well, anyone with their household income of 150K.

The reality is, it is not that hard to FIRE if you are in the top 25th percentile of income. All you have to do is stop pissing away money on things you don't actually need. It's the people in the low income splits that can't, because they don't have the income in the first place, or the help they need to be able to earn more income.

And the FIRE movement doesn't care about them at all. As a group, it is massively self-centered and privileged and completely ignores the structural problems that lead to profound inequality.

[calimom]

Here is an interesting introductory article from my favorite blogger.....

https://ournextlife.com/2020/06/01/systemic-racism/

Thanks for this. Never heard of her, and like her frank honesty and grace.

[ysette9]

Here is an interesting introductory article from my favorite blogger.....

https://ournextlife.com/2020/06/01/systemic-racism/

Thank you for linking this post-- it was a good read, and provided more food for thought for me!

Excellent article; thanks for sharing

[slappy]

She does some good writing, no doubt about it.  I especially liked the blog post where Our Next Life called out the Frugalwoods for being dishonest and peddling FI porn.

Can you share the link?

https://ournextlife.com/2018/03/21/fire-blogger-manifesto/

This blog post came out about the same time the Frugalwoods started on the podcast circuit to promote their new book.  It doesn't call them out by name, but I highly suspect the blog post was at least partially inspired by the Frugalwood's lack of transparancy in their blog and in the (repetitive) podcasts... and "selling the FI homestead dream" without being transparent about their actual situation, husband's WFH income, etc...

That was refreshing to read. I particularly appreciated her commenting on the practise of stating % savings without saying what your salary is. It's a practise I've come to dislike deeply. It both lets someone brag about their savings, but be coy about what their earnings are, so the reality of their situation is completely opague. All the while saying 'if we can do it, anyone can'. Well, anyone with their household income of 150K.

The reality is, it is not that hard to FIRE if you are in the top 25th percentile of income. All you have to do is stop pissing away money on things you don't actually need. It's the people in the low income splits that can't, because they don't have the income in the first place, or the help they need to be able to earn more income.

And the FIRE movement doesn't care about them at all. As a group, it is massively self-centered and privileged and completely ignores the structural problems that lead to profound inequality.

I've actually seen several posts on here with links to articles about the poverty mindset, etc, and I've done a lot of reading on it. Sometimes when people post something like "if only this person would stop smoking/cancel cable/spend less on food/not have an iphone/enter mustachian value" then someone will post an article about how and why those decisions are not always rational and how a persons mindset and upbringing make a big difference.  I hope I'm explaining that right. I've also seen how good financial sense seems to be aligned being a good/smart/virtuous person, which of course is not always the case. Overall, it's a complicated thing and it can be overwhelming for me to think about sometimes.

[mathlete]

Here is an interesting introductory article from my favorite blogger.....

https://ournextlife.com/2020/06/01/systemic-racism/

Wow! This is a great post. Thank you for sharing it.

Suze Orman was my original money guru. Suze is a gay woman and before Obergfell v Hodges in 2015 made gay marriage the law of the land, she was very vocal about how US marriage laws did big financial damage to gay couples. Her advocacy was largely driven by the financial implications, which was cool, but she said something on her show once that always stuck with me. I wish I had a clip or a transcript or something but I'll paraphrase the best I can. She said that while it is about taxes and transference of social security benefits, it's also about sitting down for dinner at family gatherings and having her nieces and nephews recognize her and her wife as the same or equal to every other adult marriage in the room.

My next two are a little outside the box.

Kareem Abdul Jabbar is of course, best known for being the NBA's all time leading scorer, but he's also a very smart and thoughtful guy. He's become quite prolific writer these days two. He wrote a life-lessons piece in Esquire magazine (https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a22394/kareem-things-i-wish-i-knew/) many years ago and there's a few items on there that I think this forum would love. Become financially literate. Get handy. And cook more. Hell yeah! He shares personal stories for each, of course. More recently he's written some great things on systemic inequality. (https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-05-30/dont-understand-the-protests-what-youre-seeing-is-people-pushed-to-the-edge)

Sarah Gonzalez of NPR. Sarah was already an excellent reporter and in 2018, she joined Planet Money, NPR's economics podcast. She recently did a show on issues of money and social justice in the wake of the Floyd protests. She also recently did one on how essential workers not getting hazard pay are often worse off than those on unemployment under the recent CARES Act and other COVID related legislation, and how these workers are disproportionately women of color. Both stories linked below:

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/19/881067204/money-and-justice
https://www.npr.org/2020/05/01/849390745/episode-996-about-that-hazard-pay

Sarah is a Mexican American. I have to wonder if some of these issues might be overlooked if Sarah's voice weren't in the room. Speaking of her voice, when she introduces herself, she pronounces her Spanish name with an accent. No surprises there. In 2016 though, she received an email from a listen that described the pronunciation as "histrionic".



This is a great example of the banality of bigotry. But at the end of the day, I think it is good for this listener (if they are indeed still listening) to hear a Latina voice delivering the news. Especially economics stories. Eventually, they'll get over it and recognize it as normal. And in a small way, I think that is important.

[myrrh]

I know it's a common place thing but I'm still amazed at the chuzpah of a random stranger telling someone how to pronounce their own name. Wow.

[Daisy]

I know it's a common place thing but I'm still amazed at the chuzpah of a random stranger telling someone how to pronounce their own name. Wow.

I know!

As a fellow Latina that speaks perfect Spanish and English, my full name just sounds weird when I say it with an English accent. However, sometimes when I have to give my name to someone, say in a business type setting (at a bank or something), I do pronounce it as an English speaking person would in order for them to understand me. But most of the time, I do prefer to pronounce my full name as it is said in Spanish, because not only does it sound better, but it is how the name is supposed to be pronounced!

I always try to make an effort to pronounce a person's name as close to it's original accent as I can. I ask people how they pronounce their names in their own language. Luckily, because I speak Spanish, I have always had an easy time pronouncing Indian names with my Indian coworkers. They are usually surprised at how close to Hindi I sound.

[Daisy]

I was very pleased when I met the authors of Rich and Regular at a Camp FI recently. As a fellow minority, it is important for me that learning about finances extend to everyone.

I do think the general message of frugality and investments is the same across all people in society. However, some communities can have certain mindsets, lack of education, lack of good role models, for people to even be open to the topic of finances in general, even without going to our extremes to reach financial independence.

Throw in immigrants and their own struggles and not having English as your first language in the US, and you may not even have access to some of these personal finance blogs.

[Fish Sweet]

Wow! This is a great post. Thank you for sharing it.

Suze Orman was my original money guru. Suze is a gay woman and before Obergfell v Hodges in 2015 made gay marriage the law of the land, she was very vocal about how US marriage laws did big financial damage to gay couples. Her advocacy was largely driven by the financial implications, which was cool, but she said something on her show once that always stuck with me. I wish I had a clip or a transcript or something but I'll paraphrase the best I can. She said that while it is about taxes and transference of social security benefits, it's also about sitting down for dinner at family gatherings and having her nieces and nephews recognize her and her wife as the same or equal to every other adult marriage in the room.

Funny enough, prior to 2015 the PF discussions about the benefits and drawbacks of marriage were always one of the topics that made me feel distinctly like an outlier in the group.  Something that, imo, seems like so basic and obvious a right to many people.  After the passing of CA's Prop 8 back in 2008, I just sort of. resigned myself to never getting married-- no joint tax filing, no IRA/401k rollover, no estate to plan together-- or possibly facing the choice to litigate my partner's family (or vice versa) if one of us passed away early.  If compound interest is one of the most powerful forces in the world, think of how much has been denied to same sex couples through the tax and financial and structural advantages of marriage?  It's wild to think that it was only five years ago that this all changed across the nation.

[draco44]

Wow! This is a great post. Thank you for sharing it.

Suze Orman was my original money guru. Suze is a gay woman and before Obergfell v Hodges in 2015 made gay marriage the law of the land, she was very vocal about how US marriage laws did big financial damage to gay couples. Her advocacy was largely driven by the financial implications, which was cool, but she said something on her show once that always stuck with me. I wish I had a clip or a transcript or something but I'll paraphrase the best I can. She said that while it is about taxes and transference of social security benefits, it's also about sitting down for dinner at family gatherings and having her nieces and nephews recognize her and her wife as the same or equal to every other adult marriage in the room.

Funny enough, prior to 2015 the PF discussions about the benefits and drawbacks of marriage were always one of the topics that made me feel distinctly like an outlier in the group.  Something that, imo, seems like so basic and obvious a right to many people.  After the passing of CA's Prop 8 back in 2008, I just sort of. resigned myself to never getting married-- no joint tax filing, no IRA/401k rollover, no estate to plan together-- or possibly facing the choice to litigate my partner's family (or vice versa) if one of us passed away early.  If compound interest is one of the most powerful forces in the world, think of how much has been denied to same sex couples through the tax and financial and structural advantages of marriage?  It's wild to think that it was only five years ago that this all changed across the nation.

And it can to a challenge for the lgbtq+ community on the front end of life too! I found the following read to be a real eye opener about the legal and money hurdles to overcome as a minor if you need to leave home for your safety or are kicked out by an unsupportive family:
http://www.bitchesgetriches.com/leaving-home-before-18-a-practical-guide-for-cast-offs-runaways-and-everybody-in-between/
What a hole to have to pull yourself out from! I've seen numbers from the University of Chicago reporting that LGBTQ young adults in the United States have a 120 percent higher risk of reporting homelessness compared to youth who identified as heterosexual and cisgender:
https://voicesofyouthcount.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/ChapinHall_VoYC_NationalReport_Final.pdf

Thankfully, as Fish Sweet says, there's been some encouraging legal change in recent years. But wow!

[draco44]

I was very pleased when I met the authors of Rich and Regular at a Camp FI recently. As a fellow minority, it is important for me that learning about finances extend to everyone.

I do think the general message of frugality and investments is the same across all people in society. However, some communities can have certain mindsets, lack of education, lack of good role models, for people to even be open to the topic of finances in general, even without going to our extremes to reach financial independence.

Throw in immigrants and their own struggles and not having English as your first language in the US, and you may not even have access to some of these personal finance blogs.

Very true. And that's so cool you got to meet the Rich and Regular authors! They seem super nice.

[calimom]

I know it's a common place thing but I'm still amazed at the chuzpah of a random stranger telling someone how to pronounce their own name. Wow.

Never underestimate the self-righteous outrage of a deplorable railing against what they consider 'woke'  or 'virtue signaling' pronunciation or terminology while ignoring actual problems in the world.

[mathlete]

I had never heard of Rich and Regular before this thread. Now I’m binging blog posts!

[Buffaloski Boris]

What type of diversity are we talking about here? There is a lack of philosophical and intellectual diversity at times amongst the FI community. While it’s definitely gotten better over time, suggesting alternative investment methodologies or strategies is a sure way to bring folks out of the woodwork.

As for bringing in people of various ethnicities and races, we’re probably looking at the wrong issue. If we think race is an uncomfortable topic,  try class. Niki (see below) pretty much nailed it: freedom is for those who have money.  We can spend the next decade wringing our hands over race and gender issues and accomplish pretty much the same results as we’ve accomplished for the last 50 years. Or we might start looking at this from the perspective of figuring out ways for people who don’t have freedom to make the money necessary to purchase it. I mean, when was the last time you heard or read something in the FI community about unions or collective bargaining or spreading ownership of the means of production? When was the last time you saw geo-arbitrage discussed from the perspective of buying freedom for folks who otherwise couldn’t buy it?

Or is FI only for scabs?

[draco44]

I purposely didn’t attempt to define diversity because I was curious to see what people came up with. That’s always an interesting one! And I agree class (however you want to define that) can have a big influence on people’s lives. While many of the steps to financial health will be the same for everyone (don’t spend more than your make, etc.) people’s starting point and obstacles or advantages in getting there can be different for various reasons, and acknowledging that can be useful in helping people move towards achieving their goals.
I’ve seen class topics pop up here periodically here in various guises, such as the “Poverty in childhood - did it shape you?,” “Shifting poverty mentality to abundance,” “The Old Money Book,” “What is Upper Class?” threads, and people cross-posting various “ways to tell you might be ___” think pieces, and of course MMM himself chimed in himself with a series of posts about how to make a high salary if you don’t have a college degree. But know some write off MMM as writing to middle-class people only. If folks want to talk about class more, or unions and such, I encourage them to start threads on those topics too. But also, one website can’t be all things to all everyone, so I’m curious what else people are reading.

[Buffaloski Boris]

I purposely didn’t attempt to define diversity because I was curious to see what people came up with. That’s always an interesting one! And I agree class (however you want to define that) can have a big influence on people’s lives. While many of the steps to financial health will be the same for everyone (don’t spend more than your make, etc.) people’s starting point and obstacles or advantages in getting there can be different for various reasons, and acknowledging that can be useful in helping people move towards achieving their goals.
I’ve seen class topics pop up here periodically here in various guises, such as the “Poverty in childhood - did it shape you?,” “Shifting poverty mentality to abundance,” “The Old Money Book,” “What is Upper Class?” threads, and people cross-posting various “ways to tell you might be ___” think pieces, and of course MMM himself chimed in himself with a series of posts about how to make a high salary if you don’t have a college degree. But know some write off MMM as writing to middle-class people only. If folks want to talk about class more, or unions and such, I encourage them to start threads on those topics too. But also, one website can’t be all things to all everyone, so I’m curious what else people are reading.

That's a good idea.  I might start some topics on class and unions. Most folks don't even know what a scab is. 

[Hula Hoop]

I know it's a common place thing but I'm still amazed at the chuzpah of a random stranger telling someone how to pronounce their own name. Wow.

As an American immigrant in Italy, I'm just trying to imagine if an Italian told me to pronounce my name the "Italian way". They would never do that as that would be insane. Luckily for me, though, my first name is very international so Italians are able to pronounce it (obviously with an Italian accent but I'm fine with that).  However, on some of the Italian anti-racism pages I follow there has been recent discussion of the 'Italianization" of immigrants' names.  Of course this usually happens to economic immigrants from poorer countries.  I've known several immigrants who have 'Italianicized" their names or even had Italians do it to them, ie "Mircea is too hard to pronounce, I'll call you Marco". 

Anyway I love this discussion and also Sarah Gonzalez. 

[Hula Hoop]

That was refreshing to read. I particularly appreciated her commenting on the practise of stating % savings without saying what your salary is. It's a practise I've come to dislike deeply. It both lets someone brag about their savings, but be coy about what their earnings are, so the reality of their situation is completely opague. All the while saying 'if we can do it, anyone can'. Well, anyone with their household income of 150K.

The reality is, it is not that hard to FIRE if you are in the top 25th percentile of income. All you have to do is stop pissing away money on things you don't actually need. It's the people in the low income splits that can't, because they don't have the income in the first place, or the help they need to be able to earn more income.

And the FIRE movement doesn't care about them at all. As a group, it is massively self-centered and privileged and completely ignores the structural problems that lead to profound inequality.

@Missy B Yes - this really hits the nail on the head.  I agree completely.  I still think that the concept of FIRE is a valuable one for those who are high earners (and privileged in other ways too like not being a single mother of multiple children for example) but we should be a lot clearer that the concept only applies to a very small group of very privileged people.

[mathlete]

That was refreshing to read. I particularly appreciated her commenting on the practise of stating % savings without saying what your salary is. It's a practise I've come to dislike deeply. It both lets someone brag about their savings, but be coy about what their earnings are, so the reality of their situation is completely opague. All the while saying 'if we can do it, anyone can'. Well, anyone with their household income of 150K.

The reality is, it is not that hard to FIRE if you are in the top 25th percentile of income. All you have to do is stop pissing away money on things you don't actually need. It's the people in the low income splits that can't, because they don't have the income in the first place, or the help they need to be able to earn more income.

And the FIRE movement doesn't care about them at all. As a group, it is massively self-centered and privileged and completely ignores the structural problems that lead to profound inequality.

@Missy B Yes - this really hits the nail on the head.  I agree completely.  I still think that the concept of FIRE is a valuable one for those who are high earners (and privileged in other ways too like not being a single mother of multiple children for example) but we should be a lot clearer that the concept only applies to a very small group of very privileged people.

The same basic concepts can help a middle income family with kids retire at say, 57 instead of 65. And that's a tremendous achievement.

But yeah. The "I retired at 30!" Headlines that drive most of the attention and conversation are stories of privilege.

[bmjohnson35]

That was refreshing to read. I particularly appreciated her commenting on the practise of stating % savings without saying what your salary is. It's a practise I've come to dislike deeply. It both lets someone brag about their savings, but be coy about what their earnings are, so the reality of their situation is completely opague. All the while saying 'if we can do it, anyone can'. Well, anyone with their household income of 150K.

The reality is, it is not that hard to FIRE if you are in the top 25th percentile of income. All you have to do is stop pissing away money on things you don't actually need. It's the people in the low income splits that can't, because they don't have the income in the first place, or the help they need to be able to earn more income.

And the FIRE movement doesn't care about them at all. As a group, it is massively self-centered and privileged and completely ignores the structural problems that lead to profound inequality.

@Missy B Yes - this really hits the nail on the head.  I agree completely.  I still think that the concept of FIRE is a valuable one for those who are high earners (and privileged in other ways too like not being a single mother of multiple children for example) but we should be a lot clearer that the concept only applies to a very small group of very privileged people.

I agree that the FIRE movement is not a humanitarian effort/cause, but these descriptions feel a bit harsh. I am a white male who grew up in a middle-class home, but I would not describe myself as privileged. I did discover MMM once I was at the point of what this thread is labeling as privileged.  My father described it as the get rich slow plan.  It was because of this upbringing, marrying a person with like-minded financial habits, and many years of frugal living and consistent savings/investment that we were able to fully leverage the information available. 

I agree that we can always do a better job of trying to have an inclusive message that encourages diversity in these forums, but let's not attack or label those who are successful.  I fully disagree with the notion that the MMM concept only applies to a very small group of very privileged people.  Those who are high income earners certainly can better leverage the concepts and reach FIRE sooner, but it's not a requirement. 

[mathlete]

I agree that the FIRE movement is not a humanitarian effort/cause, but these descriptions feel a bit harsh. I am a white male who grew up in a middle-class home, but I would not describe myself as privileged. I did discover MMM once I was at the point of what this thread is labeling as privileged.  My father described it as the get rich slow plan.  It was because of this upbringing, marrying a person with like-minded financial habits, and many years of frugal living and consistent savings/investment that we were able to fully leverage the information available. 

I agree that we can always do a better job of trying to have an inclusive message that encourages diversity in these forums, but let's not attack or label those who are successful.  I fully disagree with the notion that the MMM concept only applies to a very small group of very privileged people.  Those who are high income earners certainly can better leverage the concepts and reach FIRE sooner, but it's not a requirement.

Why do you think being called privileged is an attack? I probably have a similar background to you. I'm also a very hard working and excellent at making shrewd and frugal decisions. I started working when I was 16 years old and I've worked continuously ever since. I've now been employed for nearly half my life. I even paid for a lot of my own college. I still think I'm incredibly privileged.

[Zikoris]

I also find it really weird when people act like you have to be high income to FIRE. When we started working towards FIRE, I worked in a warehouse for about $12/hr and my partner worked at a grocery store for minimum wage, and out net worth was right around zero. We were ecstatic when we got jobs that crossed the 30K mark. Neither of us has ever been, or likely ever will be high income. Like, shit, I don't even have any credentials beyond my high school diploma, let alone a parent-paid-for degree. And we're well on our way to being retired before 40, despite earning totally average wages for our area, living in an expensive city and consistently travelling to about five or six countries a year.

[bmjohnson35]

I agree that the FIRE movement is not a humanitarian effort/cause, but these descriptions feel a bit harsh. I am a white male who grew up in a middle-class home, but I would not describe myself as privileged. I did discover MMM once I was at the point of what this thread is labeling as privileged.  My father described it as the get rich slow plan.  It was because of this upbringing, marrying a person with like-minded financial habits, and many years of frugal living and consistent savings/investment that we were able to fully leverage the information available. 

I agree that we can always do a better job of trying to have an inclusive message that encourages diversity in these forums, but let's not attack or label those who are successful.  I fully disagree with the notion that the MMM concept only applies to a very small group of very privileged people.  Those who are high income earners certainly can better leverage the concepts and reach FIRE sooner, but it's not a requirement.

 

Why do you think being called privileged is an attack? I probably have a similar background to you. I'm also a very hard working and excellent at making shrewd and frugal decisions. I started working when I was 16 years old and I've worked continuously ever since. I've now been employed for nearly half my life. I even paid for a lot of my own college. I still think I'm incredibly privileged.

A quick search on the definition delivered:  "When you're privileged, you enjoy some special right or advantage that most people don't have."  It's probably more of a perception on my part.  I view privileged in the context of this dsicussion as someone who inherited money or didn't necessarily have to work hard to get where they are now. Maybe it was only my interpretation.  It is funny how different words can be perceived differently by varying people. An author mentioned earlier in this thread warned about frivolous use of the words slave and freedom.  I see how the word slave can be sensitive, but freedom feels like a stretch.  At what point are we becoming too sensitive to individual perceptions or becoming too politicallty correct? Based on the definition above, I suppose I am privileged now.  Of course, everything is relative, for someone living in severe poverty, I would have been considered privileged at any point in my life.

[Buffaloski Boris]

Why do you think being called privileged is an attack? I probably have a similar background to you. I'm also a very hard working and excellent at making shrewd and frugal decisions. I started working when I was 16 years old and I've worked continuously ever since. I've now been employed for nearly half my life. I even paid for a lot of my own college. I still think I'm incredibly privileged.

Oh I’ll be happy to take this one. Because “privilege” in the vernacular has become an epithet and code word that loosely translates as “white male bastard”,  spoiled, and out of touch with the challenges of others. 

 I recognize that folks here generally use  “privilege” in the sense of the sociological theory. It still is a rotten word to use as many white males will simply tune out anything else being said.  I try to understand it in the sense it’s intended but it sure puts my teeth on edge.

[mathlete]

Why do you think being called privileged is an attack? I probably have a similar background to you. I'm also a very hard working and excellent at making shrewd and frugal decisions. I started working when I was 16 years old and I've worked continuously ever since. I've now been employed for nearly half my life. I even paid for a lot of my own college. I still think I'm incredibly privileged.

Oh I’ll be happy to take this one. Because “privilege” in the vernacular has become an epithet and code word that loosely translates as “white male bastard”,  spoiled, and out of touch with the challenges of others. 

 I recognize that folks here generally use  “privilege” in the sense of the sociological theory. It still is a rotten word to use as many white males will simply tune out anything else being said.  I try to understand it in the sense it’s intended but it sure puts my teeth on edge.

I’m a white male and I’ve never ever felt this way.

[Buffaloski Boris]

Why do you think being called privileged is an attack? I probably have a similar background to you. I'm also a very hard working and excellent at making shrewd and frugal decisions. I started working when I was 16 years old and I've worked continuously ever since. I've now been employed for nearly half my life. I even paid for a lot of my own college. I still think I'm incredibly privileged.

Oh I’ll be happy to take this one. Because “privilege” in the vernacular has become an epithet and code word that loosely translates as “white male bastard”,  spoiled, and out of touch with the challenges of others. 

 I recognize that folks here generally use  “privilege” in the sense of the sociological theory. It still is a rotten word to use as many white males will simply tune out anything else being said.  I try to understand it in the sense it’s intended but it sure puts my teeth on edge.

I’m a white male and I’ve never ever felt this way.

You’re also well educated, familiar with the history and context, presumably have some idea of who Peggy McIntosh is, and have some knowledge of sociology. That puts you in a very small group of people using the term. More often than not the folks using the term “privilege” as an epithet and those enduring it’s use don’t have any of that.

I suggest using the term “good fortune” instead of “privilege” if you’re interested in having a productive  dialogue on the topic.

[ender]

Why do you think being called privileged is an attack? I probably have a similar background to you. I'm also a very hard working and excellent at making shrewd and frugal decisions. I started working when I was 16 years old and I've worked continuously ever since. I've now been employed for nearly half my life. I even paid for a lot of my own college. I still think I'm incredibly privileged.

Oh I’ll be happy to take this one. Because “privilege” in the vernacular has become an epithet and code word that loosely translates as “white male bastard”,  spoiled, and out of touch with the challenges of others. 

 I recognize that folks here generally use  “privilege” in the sense of the sociological theory. It still is a rotten word to use as many white males will simply tune out anything else being said.  I try to understand it in the sense it’s intended but it sure puts my teeth on edge.

Sorta? Mostly the empathy piece of that.

Most people who react to "privilege" are doing so in an absolute, isolated sense. It's simultaneously true to say that:

• Someone because successful largely because of their privileges (say, middle class/upper middle class white dude born into a stable family unit where none of the immediate family was in jail)
• The same someone had large challenges to overcome in their life

When people who are more socially aware say "privilege" they mean (1) but most people react because they interpret it as negating (2).

It's the exact issue from a few years back with Obama's "you didn't build that" campaigning. It is possible that someone worked their ass off to build a business and still "didn't build it [individually]."

[MrThatsDifferent]

Yes, if you are white and male you generally have an advantage over most people who are neither white nor male. You have an advantage in not being able to be thought of as a criminal, in getting a job, in getting a loan or mortgage, in education, in politics and in being an executive in business. You have an advantage in getting paid more to do the same work as someone who isn’t male or white. These are facts. That advantage, that so many people who are white and make try desperately to defend and maintain, is deemed a privilege. It’s not about being a spoiled brat. It’s about notions that maleness and whiteness are superior and deserving of the more than those who are not male or not white. And fundamentally it is unfair because it is unearned and it comes at the cost of others.

[Zikoris]

Yes, if you are white and male you generally have an advantage over most people who are neither white nor male. You have an advantage in not being able to be thought of as a criminal, in getting a job, in getting a loan or mortgage, in education, in politics and in being an executive in business. You have an advantage in getting paid more to do the same work as someone who isn’t male or white. These are facts. That advantage, that so many people who are white and make try desperately to defend and maintain, is deemed a privilege. It’s not about being a spoiled brat. It’s about notions that maleness and whiteness are superior and deserving of the more than those who are not male or not white. And fundamentally it is unfair because it is unearned and it comes at the cost of others.

How do you square up this worldview with the fact that Asians and East Indians tend to out earn whites by a considerable amount? I sometimes see people put together those charts meant to show that white people earn the most money, and they always have black and latino people, but conveniently exclude the groups that earn more.

[mathlete]

How do you square up this worldview with the fact that Asians and East Indians tend to out earn whites by a considerable amount? I sometimes see people put together those charts meant to show that white people earn the most money, and they always have black and latino people, but conveniently exclude the groups that earn more.

Are we talking about in the United States (or Canada) only? Because the median adult income (measured by purchasing power parity) of a Chinese citizen is an order of magnitude smaller than that of Americans or Western Europeans. Indians make even less. And Americans definitely out-earn South Koreans and the Japanese.

If you're talking about Asians and East Indian Americans (Canadians), these are often immigrants who had some combination of talent, money, drive or connections to cross an ocean to get here. Or they are the children of people like that.

Likewise, most of the Nigerians I know in America are doctors or have post-grad degrees. In fact, the Census Bureau says that Nigerian Americans are far more educated than the population as a whole. This doesn't mean that Nigeria is some magical place that's full of doctors and physicists though. It just means that the most fortunate and most capable can make it to America.

I'm sure I don't have to explain why the background of many black and latino families in the US (or Canada!) is a little different.

[BicycleB]

Here is an interesting introductory article from my favorite blogger.....

https://ournextlife.com/2020/06/01/systemic-racism/

Very powerful article. @WSUCoug1994, thanks for posting.

[John Galt incarnate!]

I also find it really weird when people act like you have to be high income to FIRE. When we started working towards FIRE, I worked in a warehouse for about $12/hr and my partner worked at a grocery store for minimum wage, and out net worth was right around zero. We were ecstatic when we got jobs that crossed the 30K mark. Neither of us has ever been, or likely ever will be high income. Like, shit, I don't even have any credentials beyond my high school diploma, let alone a parent-paid-for degree. And we're well on our way to being retired before 40, despite earning totally average wages for our area, living in an expensive city and consistently travelling to about five or six countries a year.

I also strongly disagree with the idea that FIRE is only for high income earners or those who've had certain opportunities limited to the middle of higher classes. While being physically and mentally healthy, many lower income people have the option to make choices that can lead to FI. There are trade offs that higher income people don't need to make but most aren't insurmountable if FI or RE is your goal.

Here are some realistic numbers that buttress your (both of you) argument.

Suppose a couple.

Each person  is 20 and they want to FIRE at 40.

Each of them  nets $30,000 per year and each saves $10,000 per year for their joint FIREtirement.

They start with $20,000 saved and add $20,000 per year at year's end for 20 years.

After 20 years they will accumulate

 $897,304 @ 7%

$1,008,458 @ 8%

$1,135,291 @ 9%

[mathlete]

Here are some realistic numbers that buttress your (both of you) argument.

Suppose a couple.

Each person  is 20 and they want to FIRE at 40.

Each of them  nets $30,000 per year and each saves $10,000 per year for their joint FIREtirement.

They start with $20,000 saved and add $20,000 per year at year's end for 20 years.

After 20 years they will accumulate

 $897,304 @7%

$1,008,458 @8%

$1,135,291 @9%

A US household making well over the median income is already definitionally in the top half of all US households by earnings. And it's a household of two 20 year olds who already have $20K to their name? These sound like some pretty exceptional people to me.

[Zikoris]

Here are some realistic numbers that buttress your (both of you) argument.

Suppose a couple.

Each person  is 20 and they want to FIRE at 40.

Each of them  nets $30,000 per year and each saves $10,000 per year for their joint FIREtirement.

They start with $20,000 saved and add $20,000 per year at year's end for 20 years.

After 20 years they will accumulate

 $897,304 @7%

$1,008,458 @8%

$1,135,291 @9%

A US household making well over the median income is already definitionally in the top half of all US households by earnings. And it's a household of two 20 year olds who already have $20K to their name? These sound like some pretty exceptional people to me.

It's more than the average household income, because the average household income doesn't include two full time workers (most 20 year old couples don't have kids they need to plan working schedules around). It looks like the average personal income in the US was $31,099 in 2017, so looking at it like that, they're not only NOT exceptional, they're actually under average income. They would also do fine even without an extra 20K to start with, since they're saving that much in just one year.

[mathlete]

It's more than the average household income, because the average household income doesn't include two full time workers (most 20 year old couples don't have kids they need to plan working schedules around). It looks like the average personal income in the US was $31,099 in 2017, so looking at it like that, they're not only NOT exceptional, they're actually under average income. They would also do fine even without an extra 20K to start with, since they're saving that much in just one year.

They're netting $30K, which means they have to gross about $36K (in the US) and live in a state with no state income tax like Florida or Texas.

They're 20 years old and appear to be working full time, so I assume they didn't go to college. In that case, median usual weekly earnings for high school grads is $712, which gets us right around that $36K number. So they're middle 50% for their education...

...except that BLS median usual earnings by education is calculated for earners who are 25 and older. And the age of the median worker is much older than that (42). People generally earn more money as they get older.

So looking at it from multiple perspectives, these people are above the median, or at the absolute worst, right at the median. And they're at that point several decades ahead of schedule. They are undoubtedly outliers on the earnings curve.

And this isn't even to discuss possessing the emotional maturity to manage a household and a relationship at age 20, and beating the odds and riding this relationship out for 20 years. This hypothetical couple is exceptional.

[John Galt incarnate!]

Here are some realistic numbers that buttress your (both of you) argument.

Suppose a couple.

Each person  is 20 and they want to FIRE at 40.

Each of them  nets $30,000 per year and each saves $10,000 per year for their joint FIREtirement.

They start with $20,000 saved and add $20,000 per year at year's end for 20 years.

After 20 years they will accumulate

 $897,304 @7%

$1,008,458 @8%

$1,135,291 @9%

A US household making well over the median income is already definitionally in the top half of all US households by earnings. And it's a household of two 20 year olds who already have $20K to their name? These sound like some pretty exceptional people to me.

Fair enough.

Here are the numbers if the couple starts out  w/o the $20,000.



$819,910 @ 7%

$915,239 @ 8%

$1,023,202 @ 9%

[mathlete]

Even this cosmetically more achievable hypothetical assumes that you are someone who is a decade or more ahead of your peers on the earnings curve, a you attract a life partner who is also a decade or more ahead.

[Zikoris]

It's more than the average household income, because the average household income doesn't include two full time workers (most 20 year old couples don't have kids they need to plan working schedules around). It looks like the average personal income in the US was $31,099 in 2017, so looking at it like that, they're not only NOT exceptional, they're actually under average income. They would also do fine even without an extra 20K to start with, since they're saving that much in just one year.

They're netting $30K, which means they have to gross about $36K (in the US) and live in a state with no state income tax like Florida or Texas.

They're 20 years old and appear to be working full time, so I assume they didn't go to college. In that case, median usual weekly earnings for high school grads is $712, which gets us right around that $36K number. So they're middle 50% for their education...

...except that BLS median usual earnings by education is calculated for earners who are 25 and older. And the age of the median worker is much older than that (42). People generally earn more money as they get older.

So looking at it from multiple perspectives, these people are above the median, or at the absolute worst, right at the median. And they're at that point several decades ahead of schedule. They are undoubtedly outliers on the earnings curve.

And this isn't even to discuss possessing the emotional maturity to manage a household and a relationship at age 20, and beating the odds and riding this relationship out for 20 years. This hypothetical couple is exceptional.

[ericrugiero]

How do you square up this worldview with the fact that Asians and East Indians tend to out earn whites by a considerable amount? I sometimes see people put together those charts meant to show that white people earn the most money, and they always have black and latino people, but conveniently exclude the groups that earn more.

Are we talking about in the United States (or Canada) only? Because the median adult income (measured by purchasing power parity) of a Chinese citizen is an order of magnitude smaller than that of Americans or Western Europeans. Indians make even less. And Americans definitely out-earn South Koreans and the Japanese.

If you're talking about Asians and East Indian Americans (Canadians), these are often immigrants who had some combination of talent, money, drive or connections to cross an ocean to get here. Or they are the children of people like that.

Likewise, most of the Nigerians I know in America are doctors or have post-grad degrees. In fact, the Census Bureau says that Nigerian Americans are far more educated than the population as a whole. This doesn't mean that Nigeria is some magical place that's full of doctors and physicists though. It just means that the most fortunate and most capable can make it to America.

I'm sure I don't have to explain why the background of many black and latino families in the US (or Canada!) is a little different.

It seems clear that these groups have high motivation and an attitude that they can succeed if they work hard.  They also may have some other advantages as you mention but I would guess they are much less than many of the people they are out-performing.  An Indian immigrant is typically coming to the USA because they believe it's the land of opportunity (that's why they want to come).  They use education and hard work to get ahead regardless of where they start.  That contrasts sharply with someone raised in generational poverty (regardless of race) in the USA who believes they can't get ahead.  If we can influence the beliefs in these families with generational poverty so they believe they can get ahead we could significantly improve their odds of success.  That should be combined with programs to provide better education and opportunities. 

[mathlete]

It seems clear that these groups have high motivation and an attitude that they can succeed if they work hard.  They also may have some other advantages as you mention but I would guess they are much less than many of the people they are out-performing.  An Indian immigrant is typically coming to the USA because they believe it's the land of opportunity (that's why they want to come).  They use education and hard work to get ahead regardless of where they start.  That contrasts sharply with someone raised in generational poverty (regardless of race) in the USA who believes they can't get ahead.  If we can influence the beliefs in these families with generational poverty so they believe they can get ahead we could significantly improve their odds of success.  That should be combined with programs to provide better education and opportunities.

You won't find me arguing that immigrants don't outwork natives. I think that's absolutely true.

But the question was why Asian-(American) and Indian-(American) households out-earn the country at large. The United States has very specific rules regarding who we let it. There's a limited number of work visas, and strong preference is given to highly skilled or educated workers. You can also get in by seeking asylum, but even with that, you're far more likely to be granted asylum if you have family here or an infrastructure of people advocating on your behalf.

I think it's a mistake to look at a group of people who we are selecting for (very smart and skilled people who have the connections or resources to cross an ocean), and then extrapolate that there exists some kind of Asian or Indian work-ethic that we can impart on struggling white families and black families.