Author Topic: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing  (Read 32804 times)

soapdish

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #50 on: June 05, 2015, 06:12:05 AM »
When we bought our house back in 2005 (good bones but dated) it didn't have a dishwasher in it.  It was only after creating the space for one in the cabinets, doing the plumbing, and installing it myself did I feel like I had ownership of the place.  So yeah, I have an emotional attachment to the dishwasher.

I put plates, cups, silverware (smaller items that many of them can be put in) and irregularly shaped/difficult to clean things (because they're a pita to do by hand) into the dishwasher but wash the bowls, pots, pans, and things that need elbow grease by hand.  It takes long enough to do the cooking I do now, I don't need to add more cleanup time that I have to.

DLJ154

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #51 on: June 05, 2015, 07:29:57 AM »
There doesn't need to be an absolute solution here.  You can hand wash some daily and put some in the dishwasher to be washed every few days.  There are some items we use every day such as the french press, chef's knife, cutting boards, and protein shaker bottles.  These we hand wash.  There are other items we have sufficient quantity to let sit in the dishwasher for a few days until it is full like plates and tupperware containers.  The dishwasher is loaded after all the hand washing is done.  That way we don't have to dedicate pre-rinse water because the water that runs off the hand wash items is used to rinse the dishwasher items. 

Davids

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #52 on: June 05, 2015, 08:25:53 AM »
Our house we bought in 2010 came with a dishwasher in the kitchen, I have never used it. At this point I would be afraid to turn it on since it has not been turned on in at least 5 years so who knows what would happen...

Rural

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #53 on: June 05, 2015, 09:57:44 AM »
I grew up without a dishwasher, and now that I have the option, I'd much rather work an extra year if that's what it takes to afford a good edishwasher. It isn't, of course, because we installed a high-efficiency one that uses 1.6 gallons of water per load and minimal electricity. The "Eco" setting gets everything clean without rinsing, and the store brand rinse aid that keeps film from forming costs $1 at Dollar General and last three months.


We scrape anything large enough to qualify as "dog food" into the dogs' food and then load without rinsing. No problems. I avoid owning any utensils that don't go in the dishwasher, and I have never had a problem with pots and pans getting clean, though occasionally I'll have to scrub the crock pot a bit more with a plastic scrubbie if I've let something burn onto it.

I don't understand?  How do you fit a large pot,  a fry pan and a suate pan in your Dishwasher while at the same time fitting in dishes.   My fry pan takes up the entire lower self and the pot won't even fit. 

I wonder if people here are even talking about the same thing I have?    Ours is about 36 inches across (exterior) and maybe 30 inches top to bottom with two racks and a utensil thingy on the side.   

Plastic storage containers?   Forget it -- the dry cycle assures warping.

Do folks here have bigger units?   Is there something I'm missing?    If I had to do pots and pans in the DW I would need to do two loads?   

I am comfortable leaving dishes and pans in our large sink to soak overnight or longer.   The wife freaks out and must put them in the DW immediately.   I get that,  but I don't get how to put pots and pans and dishes in same unit at same time?


I may have a bigger dishwasher; I haven't measured. Last night, I put a 12" fry pan (stainless gets used occasionally when the cast iron is already in use), a cookie sheet, a smallish mixing bowl, several plates, and one stray plastic cup in the bottom of my unit. Top was bowls, drinking cups and coffee cups, and spatulas in the half-row left between cups on either side and bowls down the middle. Utensils go in a basket mounted on the door. I very much like the efficiency of this one's design, and I have had much worse ones in terms of space in the past.


I have never used the dry setting in this dishwasher (air dry is part of the Eco cycle). I don't think I've ever purposefully used the dry on any dishwasher cycle - dishes dry on their own without wasting electricity. If you would put a dish in a drainer to dry when hand washing, why treat it differently in a machine? So I don't have to worry about plastic melting.

Edited for quote tags
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 10:20:06 AM by Rural »

Rural

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #54 on: June 05, 2015, 10:14:04 AM »
we installed a high-efficiency one that uses 1.6 gallons of water per load and minimal electricity. The "Eco" setting gets everything clean without rinsing

Wow I never realized they were this efficient, that's less water than flushing many toilets a single time.
What brand and model out of curiosity?


First, on consulting the manual, I see that Eco uses 2.9 gallons. Sorry, I went from memory and was probably remembering the gpm on our low-flow showerhead.


If you're still interested, it's a Whirlpool, model number WDF530PLYB3.


Looks like it's been discontinued: [size=78%]-1011090/WDF530PLYB/]http://www.whirlpool.com/kitchen-1/dishwasher-&-cleaning-2/dishwashers-3/-[WDF530PLYB]-1011090/WDF530PLYB/[/size]


Bob W

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #55 on: June 05, 2015, 02:34:44 PM »
For all the "hand washing gets things cleaner" folks a little anecdote.

When we first got our bosch i ran a white coffee mug through that had what I thought were permanent coffee/tea stains on the bottom. No matter how much I hand washed those stains were still there. One run through the bosch and it was sparkling white. It washed off YEARS of coffee/tea stains. Noticed this on a few other pieces of dishware. Maybe I just suck and hand washing, but I don't think so.

Or maybe your Bosch is awesome?    I have probably only been exposed to lower end models of DWs all these years.  Still can't imagine how water shooting at a cup cleans it better than mechanical action?   I suppose if it is high pressure (think pressure washer) and very hot that is the trick?  Or maybe it is that DW soap is super concentrated with bleach?

Why is this so damn important?  Why you say?

Well because like showering we have never been taught the best and most efficient way as children.  We also do this task so frequently on autopilot that we could potentially use 2,500 less hours over a lifetime washing dishes.     Do this in 15 areas of your life and you have effectively added 10 years of discretionary time to your life.    Respecting time and doing daily tasks in a very efficient auto manner is a big deal.   



A quote from the web --

"A study out of the University of Bonn in Germany, reported by Pablo Päster in the May/June issue of EatingWell Magazine, found that washing a load of dishes (12 place settings) by hand uses on average 27 gallons of water and 2.5 kilowatt-hours of energy to heat the water—equivalent to running a hair dryer for 2 1/2 hours. (Not to mention the parental energy it takes to get your kid to wash all those dishes in the first place.)

By comparison, an energy-efficient dishwasher uses about 4 gallons of water and 1 kWh of energy per load. (And over the course of a year, using the dishwasher saves more than 400 hours of labor!) Researchers also found that dishwashers cleaned better, as half of the hand-washers failed to reach an “acceptable level” of cleanliness."

The study seems pretty dubious to me?  (Dish Washer Institute study perhaps?)

1.  Why use hot water.  It is not like it is hot enough to kill germs?   2.  27 gallons?  Really?  So I soak in the same water I rinsed in and fill sink with 2 gallons of hot soapy water.   Then I rinse for 3 minutes with 9 gallons.  3.  400 hours per year?  Seriously.  I've never spent more that 10 minutes per day washing dishes.  That is  60 hours total per year.  My entire evening cooking, eating,  clean up time is less that 400 hours per year?

I'll have to do some more time studies on this and report back.  My initial self study showed that hand cleaning the dishes and sitting on the counter to dry was either close to or faster than -  scrape/rinse,  bend, load,  bend,  load,  bend, load,  bend, load,  add soap,  bend to put away soap,   open,  bend, take 4 things 4 steps,  open cabinets, stretch to load cabinet,  repeat 4-5 times ----   Then when ready to eat again -  open cabinet, reach,  take dishes to place,  close cabinet.

I don't care about that water as we are on a well and have excessive water here in Missouri.   In drought states I would definitely go with Styrofoam plates. My water takes 3 minutes to get hot,  so I just don't bother with hot water either.   

Here is a nice link with a video that demonstrates good dishwashing by hand. http://www.makeitmissoula.com/2012/12/paul-wheaton-save-water-hand-wash-dishes-dishwasher/

I like this quote from the piece ---"I like to wash dishes by hand because when I am done, the dishes are all done. I am not burdening my future self to finish loading. Or to unload. Nor am I leaving a “to do” for somebody else."

Some notes from the piece --

He washed the dishes in what appears to be 4  minutes.  (annual time 24 hours)
He did in fact burden himself by loading the dishes in dishwasher to dry??  In my method I simply barely turn and set on counter top on a towel.   No bending required at washing.   At future need the dish is there ready for the meat.   No bending there or reaching into a cabinet.  I also set the pan directly on the stove top so that it is ready for me to turn my wrist at next need. 

The total amount of water he used is quoted as 1 gallon.

I'm going to try to beat this tonight!

I really like that he is able to use so little water.   Have no idea why he chooses to load them in the dishwasher to dry.   What no towel or drying rack available?

So what I'm learning here is that there is a spectrum of methods,  physical efficiency and CO2 footprints to hand wash dishes. 

What I can say for certain is that hand washing done correctly uses far less water than the most efficient DWs (3-8 times less) and that if one uses cold water very little energy is used.   

I'll do my personal time study one more time while seeking improvement steps.   I will try to get my total hand washing time below 2 minutes. 


In the end I may chuck the entire dishwashing thing all together and go for the paper plate, paper cup deal.   I did that for a year once and remember as very freeing.  Still would need to contend with the pan cleaning and forks though. 

On my tombstone ----"I wish I hadn't spent 5 entire working year washing dishes, doing laundry,  mowing the lawn,  vacuuming and showering"

The minimalist life is slowing sucking me in!

dcheesi

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #56 on: June 05, 2015, 03:28:00 PM »
Warm water can help loosen up grease-based deposits, which can otherwise be tough to get off once they've dried on. But most of the time I wash in cold water, it works well enough most of the time.

justajane

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #57 on: June 05, 2015, 03:38:42 PM »
If you have a newer dishwasher and are rinsing your plates before loading them STOP! Newer dishwashers and detergents are designed to work on plates with dried on crap. I have tested this many time, from dried up peanut butter to egg yolk. Try it!
brand and model please?  My wife wants that.

It's not just newer models that can handle the crusted on stuff. We have a Roper dishwasher that is likely 20 years old, and I never pre-rinse anything. I use half a Finish tab from Costco, and it works just fine. I do imagine that this older dishwasher uses more energy than newer models, but no way am I replacing it. I will keep on repairing it, in large part because I have heard horror stories about new models not getting the dishes cleaned.

We hand wash knives, pots, plastic lids for the Pyrex, and most bulky items. Even factoring that in, we usually run the dishwasher once a day. But we are a family of five who mostly eats in.

NoraLenderbee

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #58 on: June 05, 2015, 05:05:15 PM »
My husband and I have a deep philosophical difference about this. He believes dishwashers are evil, immoral, and fattening. So he does ALL the dishwashing in our house.

We've finally agreed to get new cabinets and counters and sink in the kitchen. The plumbing and electric are already there. There is going to be a dishwasher in this house soon, come hell or high water.

Cressida

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #59 on: June 05, 2015, 11:15:02 PM »
My husband and I have a deep philosophical difference about this. He believes dishwashers are evil, immoral, and fattening.

This reminds me of my BIL who won't use a microwave because it gives the food "bad chi." He's a good guy but ??

gomike

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #60 on: June 05, 2015, 11:32:44 PM »
Dishwaher = more time with family

ChrisLansing

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #61 on: June 06, 2015, 03:39:45 PM »
My wife taught me to wash dishes the "primative" way that she had leaned growing up on a farm in SE Asia.   

You put water/soap in a small bowl (we use a plastic one that is used only for the purpose) then dip your scrub pad (whatever type you use) in the bowl and then wash the dish.   Once you have several plates washed you rinse them under the running tap then they go in the drainer.    Continue until done.     The sink is never filled with water. 

We stack the dishes in the sink, running just enough water over each plate to cover it.   That way they "soak" so nothing sticks to them.   Same with bowls, saucers etc.   

Dirty silverware goes in a small plastic bin which sits inside the sink    This bin is kept full of soapy water.    When it's time to do dishes nothing is gunked on.   Wash/rinse, and into the drainer. 

There is absolutely no way we use anywhere near as much water as a dish washing machine.   

We both feel that as long as we have hands we don't need a machine.   

dunhamjr

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #62 on: June 06, 2015, 07:34:54 PM »
I will always have a dishwasher.

the cost savings is no where near enough vs the time spent to make me not use it.

music lover

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #63 on: June 07, 2015, 11:30:51 AM »
Putting dishes in the dishwasher takes about the same amount of time and effort as it does to put them in the sink...unless you consider bending over to be a terrible chore, lol. Letting the dishwasher wash them takes 10 seconds...the amount of time needed to add detergent and turn it on.

When the dishwasher cycle is over, open it up and let them air dry. That takes 10 more seconds. It takes me about a minute or so to empty a full dishwasher of clean dishes.

The total time required to clean and put away an entire load of dishes is about a minute and a half. I'm sure I could use a little less water by hand washing if I took some care, but the time saved is more valuable than the couple pennies saved in water usage.

MLKnits

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #64 on: June 07, 2015, 11:45:40 AM »
Dishwaher = more time with family

I find this the reverse of my experience. My family always had a dishwasher growing up, but it was the hand-washing (special-occasion china, brief periods when the dishwasher was broken, etc) that meant the family as a group stood around in the kitchen, rinsing and drying and talking.

I remember those times very, very fondly. They kept us together after family dinner ended, and usually led to other family activities, like a walk around the neighbourhood, when we might otherwise have put our dishes in the dishwasher and run off to our separate spaces.

Bob W

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #65 on: June 07, 2015, 01:10:24 PM »
I have been doing some internet research on this and have come to the conclusion that hand washing done efficiently is faster, more efficient and ecconimical than dish washing in a machine.   You bias or mileage may vary.    I would suggest watching the video link I posted and then give it a personal try and time against doing the DW.       I also thinks that cabinets vs non cabinets should be seriously considered in this discussion.    Since my future self will be living in a tiny house or RV  for significant time periods,  it is important that I master the hand techniques.

CanuckExpat

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #66 on: June 07, 2015, 02:12:59 PM »
We've been talking about the merits of hand washing vs running the dish-washer for so long I think we forgot about the OPs original problem.

The dishwashing detergent is more expensive and seems to run out quicker (every 40-60 loads or 2-3 months).  We are also having random issues where the soap cup sometimes won't even open during the wash or there is soap residue is left on the dishes.

I think everyone has already nailed that they are probably using too much soap.
It might be worth running an empty load or two with no soap or dishes to help clean the dishwasher, especially of all the extra soap gunk you've probably accumulated. That might explain why your soap cups don't open.

pablo suarve

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #67 on: June 07, 2015, 02:38:08 PM »
Handwashing dishes takes me three minutes, tops, per meal.  A dishwasher would take twice as long to clean the dishes, and for the time spent loading it, I could be finished washing by hand.

HopefulMustache

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #68 on: June 07, 2015, 04:09:15 PM »
I grew up with a dishwasher, but for the last 6 years or so have been living without one. Over time, I have learned to do what a few posters above have already mentioned, which is make it into a relaxing, almost meditative experience. It can feel calming, it can be a good time to listen to music or other things, etc. It *can* be, but of course sometimes you just wish the sink was empty.

It takes me about 15-20m a day on average, and it'd be nice not to clear out the sink, and then after cooking a meal with pots and pans and measuring cups that fill the sink entirely back up, spend that time clearing the sink again just to get back to even. Cooking is such a huge benefit that removing anything that acts as a deterrent to that is a big positive. The next kitchen I live in will almost certainly have a dishwasher (my partner is a big fan of them too), though by no means do I plan to use it exclusively.

I don't remember the dishwasher ever being a pain to use growing up. It was quick, easy, and we just about never ran out of clean dishes. Frankly, there was something peaceful and nice to me about unloading all the dishes back into their cabinets... though my siblings always seemed to hate that part the most.

To nitpick a bit, I can't see why putting a dish in the dishwasher is harder than putting it in the sink, or why removing it from the dishwasher is harder than removing it from the drying rack on the counter. It's just the washing part that changes. I know some people have mentioned bending at the waist as potentially problematic, but I have felt wrist pain after a long session of handwashing, and I don't think there's an argument that handwashing isn't more physically demanding. Nitpicks aside, I think it's just about finding out what you enjoy more personally... based on the posts above, you can get great efficiency if you desire using either method.

justajane

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #69 on: June 07, 2015, 05:08:07 PM »
One reason why I prefer the dishwasher is because my husband uses copious amounts of hot water when he washes things by hand. It is torture to listen to - it sounds like money down the drain to me. He lets it run full throttle while he washes and rinses. I have tried to express how anxious this makes me, but alas, the attempt to conserve water and natural gas is viewed as controlling behavior. So I try to let it go and use the dishwasher as much as possible.

Bob W

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #70 on: June 08, 2015, 08:47:40 PM »
One reason why I prefer the dishwasher is because my husband uses copious amounts of hot water when he washes things by hand. It is torture to listen to - it sounds like money down the drain to me. He lets it run full throttle while he washes and rinses. I have tried to express how anxious this makes me, but alas, the attempt to conserve water and natural gas is viewed as controlling behavior. So I try to let it go and use the dishwasher as much as possible.

Why the hot water?  I find that a dish that has either soaked or is immediately washed requires very little in the way of water and cold works just fine.    I counted while I washed my dish fork and glass after lunch at work today.   About 15 seconds.   

I'll be training the 7 almost 8 year old son to wash dishes this summer.  So I'm glad I got a chance to do some research on the most efficient hand washing method.   So hopefully within 90 days I will have a fully trained hand dishwasher on hand.   

I think for families that is a viable and reasonable accommodation.     We also tend to spilt cooking and dish washing at my house.   Since I do most of the cooking DW has been doing most of the dishes.   She is pretty adamant about using the dishwasher.   I really think it is a fake out though.   

For a 2 person household the minimum number of dishes needed is 2.  2 glasses.  2 sets of utensils.   (hell you might even splurge and do sets of 6)

So for that amount one would need zero cabinet space,  no DW and just a towel to air dry.   You could probably pick up your total supplies for 5 bucks or less at the thrift store.

My assumption for a DW 2 person family that they will want numerous dishes,  glasses and utensils requiring 2 cabinets and 1 drawer.   Cabinets run about $400 a piece and $200 for the drawer.  So that is $600.  Throw in a nice dishwasher and we are at $1000 for the dish system.   Include the square footage needed for the DW and cabinet at $125 a sq ft ($1,200) and we are now at $2,200 for the traditional home dish management system. 

So basically close to zero vs.  $2,200.   

Yeah this all comes in handy when visualizing my future tiny house and lifestyle.   

 I'm not a zen dishwasher but more of a get it done guy.   So yeah,  my future tiny house will have no DW.  It will not have more than one dish/glass/cup dedicated cabinet.  The cabinet (storage unit) will be located directly above and to the right of the sink.   It will be glass fronted or have no front.  It will have grated shelves and a vented bottom or sides for air drying.  the dishes will be vertically stored so they can go straight to the cabinet to dry.  There will be a vertical utensil storage unit against the wall to the right of the sink. 

My kitchen is currently about 150 sq ft. ,  I would hope my future kitchen to be less than 10 sq ft which is what the RV we lived in while completing our current house project was.   I'm counting the galley walk through as part of the dining area.   

Weird --- the RV was around 300 sq ft compared to our current 3000.   I'm not happier and my life really doesn't seem substantially different?  Perhaps another RV is in our future. 

Hmmm?  Now I'm rambling ---- let's see --- sell the house for 100K equity  --- buy RV for 20K (nice one, big)  --- rent RV lot for $150 a month --- come out ahead?   No damn the math doesn't work because the RV depreciates too quickly while the damn house appreciates.  Well,  it was worth a try.  Well, shit now,  maybe if the RV was 10K and the lot rent $100?    And I earned a 10% return on the 80K.  Hmmmm?

   

The_path_less_taken

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #71 on: June 09, 2015, 08:55:02 AM »
Bob W.
There's always the option of buying raw land, or land with just a septic tank in it. Property taxes for "undeveloped" land are usually a fraction of settled land.

So a semi-rural acre could possibly be purchased for 2-3 year lot rent...the tiny house/rv could float on that without being an in ground encumbrance.



As for the hand washing: living in an RV and camping both 'proved' to me that most dishes don't need hot water if either soaked first or washed right after using. And carrying water from a stream by bucket convinced me I didn't need quite as much water as I thought I did. (mainly because hiking back/forth to a stream with two metal buckets sucked, and forced me to learn to conserve)

Bob W

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #72 on: June 09, 2015, 09:49:02 AM »
Bob W.
There's always the option of buying raw land, or land with just a septic tank in it. Property taxes for "undeveloped" land are usually a fraction of settled land.

So a semi-rural acre could possibly be purchased for 2-3 year lot rent...the tiny house/rv could float on that without being an in ground encumbrance.



As for the hand washing: living in an RV and camping both 'proved' to me that most dishes don't need hot water if either soaked first or washed right after using. And carrying water from a stream by bucket convinced me I didn't need quite as much water as I thought I did. (mainly because hiking back/forth to a stream with two metal buckets sucked, and forced me to learn to conserve)

Good thoughts --- I have spent many a day  (over 200) tent camping and have always found it easy enough to wash dishes with just a tad of water. 

The land purchase is an option around here.  In that event I would likely RV on the land while constructing a dwelling.    The RV would then be reserved for travel.   

It seems like a lot of thought to put into dishwashing,  but I also put lots of thought into clothes washing,  showering,  composts toilets,  rain water collection and DYI water storage and filtering systems. 

I figure that on either an RV or Tiny house I can design and use without the need for either a septic or well system.   Those systems around here run in the 10-20K area. 

It rains a lot here so collecting rain, recycling grey water and using a compost toilet (humanure type) would mean that I would only need to collect maybe 2000 gallons a year in rain water.   Easy to do with 20 inches of annual rain.   The summer can go 90 days without much though. 

I would actually consider a similar system on a city house here.  My daily water usage may shake down like this  --- 1 g drinking, 0 gallon toilet,  4 g showers,  4 g laundry,  1 g sink etc..  So maybe 10 g a day or 300 a month.   80% of that can easily be sand filtered,  UV treated and reused being mixed with treated rainwater.    Filtered and UVed rainwater for drinking.   

Beaker

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #73 on: June 09, 2015, 10:04:52 AM »
Why the hot water?  I find that a dish that has either soaked or is immediately washed requires very little in the way of water and cold works just fine.    I counted while I washed my dish fork and glass after lunch at work today.   About 15 seconds.   

I've always heard that hot water is better for killing off germs on the dishes and those little petri dishes otherwise known as dish sponges. If you Google around a bit you can find lots of conflicting reports about whether hot water is effective or not. I haven't had much luck finding anything I would call authoritative.

The most common argument against hot water seems to be that it's not hot enough to matter. But water doesn't have to be actually boiling hot to kill some common strains of bacteria. For instance legionella dies at about 140F, which is easily achievable with normal hot water heaters. That's way too hot for bare hands, but you can stand it if you use gloves. (Tangentially, that's one reason to keep your water heater at a higher temperature - hot water heaters at 120F are a fantastic breeding ground for legionella.)

Anecdotally, I noticed that when I switched from "barely hot" water washing with bare hands to "really hot" water with gloves, my sponges last a lot longer without starting to smell. Which I take to mean that there's some benefit there. But I'm open to being proven wrong if anybody has some actual research (ie, not random bloggers making baseless assertions).

NewReality

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #74 on: June 09, 2015, 11:29:46 AM »
I don't buy that running a dw is less water/costs less overall than handwashing, at least not in our household, and neither did it save much time. Maybe in a large restaurant.

I keep a minimal amount of place settings (4) and cookware/utensils (about 6) in the house, and we eat simple foods such as breads, rice and beans, etc. that don't make all that much mess. It's easy for each of us to simply rinse off our dish with a bit of hot water and into the drying rack after each meal. Cleanup uses at most 2 minutes of slowly running hot water per "big" meal (dinner), and mere seconds more generally.

Dishwashers run for a LONG TIME, and use heat (drying phase), and all this extra soap and whatnot, and you've usually gotta rinse the dishes first, if you want them to come clean. Then you've got to sit and listen to that thing churn and churn. Then you pull them out and they've still got crud and soap residue on them, "oh, I'll just rinse that off (again)". Then you pull out that one bowl that was holding on to water water with little bits of coffee grinds that dishwashers manufacture, it will splash right on to your crotch...

It's a machine, that must be purchased (worked for), assisted ("pre-rinsing"), loaded, run, unloaded, and maintained, all to ostensibly "replace" a task that should be very simple for humans.

It is more work to own and use than the problem it's supposedly there to solve. If dishwashers were around in the 1800s, Thoreau surely would have lampooned the idea in Economy.

arcangel911

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #75 on: June 09, 2015, 11:43:27 AM »
I am one who will have a dishwasher. During the winter, I have other things to do than dishes. And in the spring/summer/fall- there is canning to be done. Although I see the points of not having one, I think that a dishwasher is god send in a lot of ways.

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #76 on: June 10, 2015, 10:47:06 AM »
I don't buy that running a dw is less water/costs less overall than handwashing, at least not in our household, and neither did it save much time. Maybe in a large restaurant.

I keep a minimal amount of place settings (4) and cookware/utensils (about 6) in the house, and we eat simple foods such as breads, rice and beans, etc. that don't make all that much mess. It's easy for each of us to simply rinse off our dish with a bit of hot water and into the drying rack after each meal. Cleanup uses at most 2 minutes of slowly running hot water per "big" meal (dinner), and mere seconds more generally.

Dishwashers run for a LONG TIME, and use heat (drying phase), and all this extra soap and whatnot, and you've usually gotta rinse the dishes first, if you want them to come clean. Then you've got to sit and listen to that thing churn and churn. Then you pull them out and they've still got crud and soap residue on them, "oh, I'll just rinse that off (again)". Then you pull out that one bowl that was holding on to water water with little bits of coffee grinds that dishwashers manufacture, it will splash right on to your crotch...

It's a machine, that must be purchased (worked for), assisted ("pre-rinsing"), loaded, run, unloaded, and maintained, all to ostensibly "replace" a task that should be very simple for humans.

It is more work to own and use than the problem it's supposedly there to solve. If dishwashers were around in the 1800s, Thoreau surely would have lampooned the idea in Economy.

This is funny!   Strangely I can't get this thread out of my head each time I hand wash a dish now.   

Some stuff is very funny  --- Hot water killing germs?   Seriously?  I just ate off this plate. What kind of germs was I eating off of?   My family and I all share our germs on a daily basis as it is and most of them reside on the handle to the fridge anyhow.     I'm just not a germaphobe I suppose.   

The drying rack or towel is where the magic is.  If you're shelving and unshelving IMHO you are just digging a hole only to fill it in latter in the day. 

The fact that so many people buy into the DW idea should be a case study on the power of marketing. 

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #77 on: June 10, 2015, 12:25:51 PM »
We've lived many places some with dishwashers others without. Our current house has a dishwasher that really works because we picked it out and researched to ensure it would work! The crazy thing is that it was free with our package we put in when we remodeled our 1961 original kitchen.

We opt for quickly loading in it the things that fit, we do not rinse/pre-clean. It even has a china setting so for all our fancy meals have the same stragety, which is lovely.

We have found that a "pod" that contains all the cleaning materials works the best and We buy them on sale and with coupons. We are not afraid to stock up.

Its just the two of us so we load the dishes every other day or so. It is a morning chore and that afternoon they get put away.

Big or awkward items get handwashed.

I HATED pre-washing dishes to put them in the dishwasher...

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #78 on: June 10, 2015, 01:01:01 PM »
Well we have one but I have always been a bit skeptical about it. (1) you have to pre-wash the dishes, otherwise any solids will get baked on in the drying cycle and are hard to get off, if I'm pre-washing it's not much more effort to add some soap and just wash by hand. (2) it uses up our hot water, and usually we are trying to bathe kids, showers etc around the same time it would be running, after dinner (3) it's loud (4) it doesn't clean as well as washing by hand (5) bulky items are difficult to clean, so they have to be cleaned by hand anyway, again it's not much effort to just clean the other stuff at the same time. (6) I can do the dishes much faster by hand, it takes maybe 20-30% of the time the dishwasher takes.

RunHappy

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #79 on: June 10, 2015, 01:07:14 PM »
I've been reading more about dishwashing and found this interesting article.  It really only talks about 1 study but it raises several questions.

"The study involved 1,029 Swedish children (ages 7 or 8) and found that those whose parents said they mostly wash the family's dishes by hand were significantly less likely to develop eczema, and somewhat less likely to develop allergic asthma and hay fever."

http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/02/23/387553285/kids-allergies-and-a-possible-downside-to-squeaky-clean-dishes

RunHappy

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #80 on: June 10, 2015, 01:12:09 PM »
For all the "hand washing gets things cleaner" folks a little anecdote.

When we first got our bosch i ran a white coffee mug through that had what I thought were permanent coffee/tea stains on the bottom. No matter how much I hand washed those stains were still there. One run through the bosch and it was sparkling white. It washed off YEARS of coffee/tea stains. Noticed this on a few other pieces of dishware. Maybe I just suck and hand washing, but I don't think so.

For those coffee/tea stains, wet the cup then sprinkle salt in it and rub the salt in with your fingers it will get rid of those stains.

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #81 on: June 10, 2015, 02:18:25 PM »
I grew up in a family with six kids and for many years one of my jobs was washing dishes by hand.  I will never go without a dishwasher again.  I have little enough free time to waste on washing dishes.  We also had no garbage disposal and that's a must-have in my life, too.

I also have a Bosch.  It is da bomb and worth every penny it costs to buy and run.  I pre rinse nothing and the dishes come out sparkling.  It is also so quiet I can hardly tell it is running. 

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #82 on: June 10, 2015, 03:30:51 PM »

i bought a new, scratch and dent; diswasher about a year ago; to replace the original; still havent used it; its faster for me to hand wash imo.

a dishwasher may be more effecient; but i still would rinse most dishes before putting them in the old dishwasher; seems faster to just add soap then and do it myself and be done.


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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #83 on: June 10, 2015, 04:04:21 PM »
For all the "hand washing gets things cleaner" folks a little anecdote.

When we first got our bosch i ran a white coffee mug through that had what I thought were permanent coffee/tea stains on the bottom. No matter how much I hand washed those stains were still there. One run through the bosch and it was sparkling white. It washed off YEARS of coffee/tea stains. Noticed this on a few other pieces of dishware. Maybe I just suck and hand washing, but I don't think so.

For those coffee/tea stains, wet the cup then sprinkle salt in it and rub the salt in with your fingers it will get rid of those stains.

Thanks for that Swedish study.   I never stress about coffee or tea stains.   I'm going to just add more tea or coffee anyhow.  In fact,  I sometimes buy a coffee at a C store with a plastic lid and then see if I can go a whole month before the cup wears out.   Never soap and wash.   Just rinse and refill. 

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #84 on: June 10, 2015, 04:11:10 PM »
I grew up in a family with six kids and for many years one of my jobs was washing dishes by hand.  I will never go without a dishwasher again.  I have little enough free time to waste on washing dishes.  We also had no garbage disposal and that's a must-have in my life, too.

I also have a Bosch.  It is da bomb and worth every penny it costs to buy and run.  I pre rinse nothing and the dishes come out sparkling.  It is also so quiet I can hardly tell it is running.

Those freaking Bosch DWs sound like they rock.  I might be swayed if I had one that could do that!

I see they are priced from 400-1800?

Anyone that has had the great Bosch experiences know what model they have?

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #85 on: June 10, 2015, 04:16:11 PM »

i bought a new, scratch and dent; diswasher about a year ago; to replace the original; still havent used it; its faster for me to hand wash imo...

Seconding the bold part.

I will happily use a washing machine for clothes. It spits out clean clothes faster than I could with a washboard.

A dishwasher, racing me with a bristled scrub-brush and a pull-down faucet? Not even close - I win, clean dishes in minutes, not an hour.

A drop of Sunlight dish soap on a plate, another in a cup, add a tiny bit of water... scrub scrub scrub, quick rinse (like, 3 seconds) and it's done.

I know people who just loathe doing dishes but what made it bearable for me was adding the pull down faucet. On the "spray" mode, it peels grease off dishes and makes dish washing more like power-washing:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYfCmJer_io
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 04:36:22 PM by cjottawa »

Bob W

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #86 on: June 10, 2015, 04:21:47 PM »
Oh yeah,  I have one of those!    If you hold it right next to your object it is like a mini pressure washer.   In fact,  I used it this morning on the pan I left soaking overnight.    It peeled off everything and left a residue of oil.   I didn't even bother wiping since I was putting it right back on the 1400 degree burner and adding a touch of olive oil anyway. 

cjottawa

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #87 on: June 10, 2015, 04:30:19 PM »
For all the "hand washing gets things cleaner" folks a little anecdote.

When we first got our bosch i ran a white coffee mug through that had what I thought were permanent coffee/tea stains on the bottom. No matter how much I hand washed those stains were still there. One run through the bosch and it was sparkling white. It washed off YEARS of coffee/tea stains. Noticed this on a few other pieces of dishware. Maybe I just suck and hand washing, but I don't think so.

I just noticed this post (well, someone else quoting it).

It wasn't that you sucked at hand washing or that the Bosch dishwasher was necessarily better than other brands.

The chemicals you put in your dishwasher were better suited to removing the stains - wash powder or gel is highly caustic.

Pick one of these:
  • one tea-spoon of OxiClean powder
  • one Efferdent denture cleaning tablet

Drop it in your stained coffee/tea mug; add hot water. DON'T COVER OR SEAL IT. (pressure will build)
Leave it overnight. The stains will be gone. (it might even work after a few minutes and a bit of agitation with the OxiClean)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2015, 04:33:01 PM by cjottawa »

justajane

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #88 on: June 10, 2015, 08:06:41 PM »
Pick one of these:
  • one tea-spoon of OxiClean powder
  • one Efferdent denture cleaning tablet

Drop it in your stained coffee/tea mug; add hot water. DON'T COVER OR SEAL IT. (pressure will build)
Leave it overnight. The stains will be gone. (it might even work after a few minutes and a bit of agitation with the OxiClean)

A little bit of Barkeeper's Friend will also take out tea or coffee stains. It also does wonders on glasses and removes the residue that some dishwashers give them. For cleaning in general, this stuff rocks.

Pigeon

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #89 on: June 11, 2015, 06:30:26 AM »
I grew up in a family with six kids and for many years one of my jobs was washing dishes by hand.  I will never go without a dishwasher again.  I have little enough free time to waste on washing dishes.  We also had no garbage disposal and that's a must-have in my life, too.

I also have a Bosch.  It is da bomb and worth every penny it costs to buy and run.  I pre rinse nothing and the dishes come out sparkling.  It is also so quiet I can hardly tell it is running.

Those freaking Bosch DWs sound like they rock.  I might be swayed if I had one that could do that!

I see they are priced from 400-1800?

Anyone that has had the great Bosch experiences know what model they have?

I've got an 800, my sister has an older one, don't know the model, and my friend has a 300 and they are all awesome.  The major difference seems to be in noise level, with the 800 being the quietest, but I've been at my friend's house when hers was on and it's also very quiet.  My 800 is new, but it replaced an older one that was also awesome and very quiet.  The 800 actually has a little light that shines on the floor when it is  running because you can't otherwise tell because it is so quiet.  The noise level isn't why I got that model though.  I got a deal on a floor model.

Trimatty471

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #90 on: June 11, 2015, 11:01:47 AM »
The last time that I've had a dishwasher was in college.  And it seemed to me that it was just extra work.
So I hand wash.

zoltani

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #91 on: June 12, 2015, 11:44:50 AM »
I have a Bosch 500 with third rack and controls right on front, not hidden. Didn't think I would use the third rack, but now I don't think I would buy one without it.


zoltani

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #92 on: June 12, 2015, 11:47:09 AM »
Sexy, ain't it?


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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #93 on: June 12, 2015, 12:32:10 PM »
Sexy, ain't it?

Reminds me of Calculon's evil half-brother.

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BriarRose111

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #94 on: June 14, 2015, 01:43:07 PM »
I've heard that if you have a dishwasher and don't use it, that the seals / gaskets in it can dry out.   Not sure it is true, but my Mom had a dishwasher she rarely used and a repair guy told her that.

SingleMomDebt

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #95 on: June 14, 2015, 02:42:05 PM »
Never done a cost analysis. Not sure how I would. 1 bottle of dawn $2-$3 (handwashing - last me forever) vs. dish detergent big bottle warehouse buy $11 (dishwasher - 20 to 25 loads).

Water wise found out the model I have (older energy star) potentially uses 10-15 gallons H20 vs. standard sink (10-15 gallons + rinse). (I only fill my standard 15-20 gallon sink half way up)(new energy stars use 5.5 gallons approx.)(my dry cycle is always on air dry)

But hand washing, I feel my dishes are cleaner than my dishwasher. Then again I think I have a crappy apartment dishwasher that is due for replacing. Hand washing is therapeutic to me. Personal win for me = handwashing

Shamantha

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #96 on: June 14, 2015, 03:27:08 PM »
I have a dishwasher and run it daily, no rinsing, and I think it saves me 20 minutes a day. I always cook from scratch and I fill the dishwasher almost to capacity on most days. One plate for the main meal, one for sides, one bowl for salad. Then for cooking, one pan for the starchy stuff such as rice or pasta, one for the sauce or vegetables, sometimes a third one to grill or fry something,  a stick blender for sauces or dressings, with the stick blender cup, a large mixing bowl for the salad. Wineglass, waterglass. Another bowl or plate for dessert. Plastic cutting board and colander etc only if there still is room left. After dinner tea with something sweet, so a teacup and a small plate for a biscuit or chocolate. For lunch in the weekend it is usually a fried egg with toast or soup, so another pan and bowl or plate. Also every day the containers for my juicer and a juice glass. Then some tupperware or other containers that I store leftovers in, usually there are one or two of these as well.

It may be that I use more items than most people here? I love my food, and I pay a lot of attention to my meals. I love being able to put everything in the dishwasher whilst cooking, without losing time or (more importantly) space on the countertop and in the sink.

Bob W

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #97 on: June 15, 2015, 07:41:40 PM »
Just finished hand washing the dinner dishes and pans and glasses and utensils for 3.    5.5 minutes.  I'm fucking exhausted.

RunHappy

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #98 on: June 16, 2015, 06:57:09 AM »
Just finished hand washing the dinner dishes and pans and glasses and utensils for 3.    5.5 minutes.  I'm fucking exhausted.

LOL!

I've been watching my times and I'm either really efficient at hand washing or really inefficient at dishwasher loading, but hand washing is faster for me.

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Re: Dishwasher vs Hand Washing
« Reply #99 on: June 16, 2015, 03:40:26 PM »
I don't think I understand this loading the dishwasher thing. When you're finished with a dish, either you set it in the sink or you set it in the dishwasher, depending on where you intend to wash it.