Author Topic: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty  (Read 7388 times)

MomOntheGo

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So here is the high level summary:

We set a number years ago, we got to this number about a year ago, both are still working, and now with layoff happening at work and I am of the mind "I don't mind a package", DH is suggesting otherwise.

We have enough a stash to ER, well, at least enough if we don't plan to pay for our 2 young kids full college tuition. My job is well paid, has great work life balance and not stressed out (finally!) I am bored but all things considered not a bad situation. So I am not in a rush to quit and prefer a package after a pretty long career. But when I mentioned "I would not look for another job" if I get laid off, DH is more like "well, if that does happen, why don't you look for another role in the company because it's pretty comfy" or take a 6-12 months break and back on the market?

When I said, why do I want to do that? He was like "you know, just in case"... I can sense a few things even without asking (we've been together for a more than 15 years now so I do know him, and some of those thoughts bubbled up here and there before). There is that level of uncertainty he is worried about even though the number works and he agreed they work, my paycheck provide extra insurance and the option of luxury (although we ALWAYS opt for the economic options), and two: it's a bit of a waste of "human capital"? It's like I am this educated, able bodied person at the "prime years" of career. How could I just throw all this away and be the "lazy one doing nothing" to contribute to society? He has always commented in private, that someone's spouse is "lazy" and "throwing away a good education" if they don't work.

He came from a hard working family and pride himself for his work ethic. I think unfortunately perhaps, work has become one of his main identities. I, on the other hand, am more free spirited and curious to explore just for the pleasure of exploring. I work hard when I need to, but never grow to identify myself with what I do for work.

Now his number is actually a lot more than the numbers we agreed upon (our original number is pretty comfy already) and more along the line of bogleheads thoughts, because he wants to "never worry about it much" AND leave a good amount for the kids AND he WANTs to work (identity issue, that will be a pain when he finally pull the plug). It's like well it's "safer" if we have another xx amount. He works really hard, I feel bad sometimes although it's a personal choice. But I also feel unfair to be labeled as the "lazy one not doing anything" because every dime we have we earned and saved together. I said so and he agreed that much, but I can see a clear emotional barrier there.

If I don't ever get laid off for another year or two, I will probably just quit because the job has become a white collar prison of sort - I don't work too hard but don't have the freedom to do what I love.  If I do get laid off, I don't want to look for another one, then I turn from his "equal" to this "lazy person who doesn't contribute". Ugh.

golfreak12

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The funny thing with us is that during our 8 yrs of marriage, I was the sole provider while she finished school.
She had odd jobs here and there but every time she hated a job, I told her to quit cause she didn't have to work.
Fast forward till now and she finished school and got a good job( Our FIRE plan never included her working). She doing really well and I suspect she will climb the corporate ladder pretty well.
The thing is that we keep joking that 2025 should be our RE year. We should have plenty by then but I don't know if she want to quit by then. I couldn't imagine me quitting and shes still working. It would feel so weird for me.
I would have the opposite reaction from your DH. My DW is an able body and super smart person but if she wanted to quit, I couldn't careless if we had enough to RE. I would hope she feels the same way but I don't think I can quit before she will.

mspym

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Hmmm paid work is not the only way a person can contribute to society and I would be inclined to dig a little deeper into what seems to be a contempt (?) for (traditionally female) unpaid labour work, particularly if he continues working and you stop. Would he continue to value your unpaid work or would it shift the balance in your marriage in an unhealthy direction?

I wouldn't take the jump without working through that even though my personal inclination would be take the lay-off and shift focus to other ways to produce value that don't necessarily revolve around a paycheck.

2sk22

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Mismatches in (subjective) levels of financial insecurity are common in couples.

My wife and I are both relatively frugal and are not big spenders and we have saved a lot from our well paying jobs over the years. So we are well matched in that regard. I have done the calculations and we currently have about 50x (!) of our expenses saved.

But our attitudes about our savings are definitely different. I think that we have completely exceeded any reasonable level of financial independence.  But my wife on the other hand feels that we are one step removed from impoverished destitution :-)

Thankfully, she's fine with me retiring next year and I have absolutely no problem with her working as long as she wants. I should note that she is in a very high paying job (an executive level position in her company) and generally enjoys her work. On the other hand, I absolutely feel that I'm done working.

norajean

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My spouse has a similar attitude (toward my retiring), along the lines of "you have a fabulous, low-stress, high salary job which uses all the business skills you have developed and creates huge value for the company.  Others would kill for your job and you should take great satisfaction in it. If you stopped working what on earth would you be doing all day and how would you make yourself useful?  It's nothing to do with money, we have always had more than we needed.  It's about maximizing utility." 

I'll draw a line in the sand in another year or two but if a package comes along I will probably grab it.  If retired life is boring I can always consult but I suspect I'll be quite busy.  About half the people I know who retired have wanted to work a bit more and found new jobs or consulted, the other half are "doing nothing all day" and loving it.

Metalcat

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Are you two openly talking about things?
Your post makes it sound like you are understanding his perspective through little comments here and there and inferences. Are you having ongoing, open discourse specifically about what your careers mean to you and to each other?

Have you come out and asked "will you think less of me if I choose to stop working?"

Zette

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I’d suggest that you take the package and then go into “consulting”, whatever that would look like with your skills in your industry. Or treat it as a career change to something you find more fulfilling.

MomOntheGo

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Norajean pretty much nailed it: "My spouse has a similar attitude (toward my retiring), along the lines of "you have a fabulous, low-stress, high salary job which uses all the business skills you have developed and creates huge value for the company.  Others would kill for your job and you should take great satisfaction in it. If you stopped working what on earth would you be doing all day and how would you make yourself useful?  It's nothing to do with money, we have always had more than we needed.  It's about maximizing utility." I think it's a mental hurdle he can't get over right now.

To the open communication part, yeah I pushed and asked, he said something along the line of what Norajean said above, then sighed and said: sure you can do it if you want, I am fine with it. now let's watch the show. To 2sk22's point, he doesn't openly say about the security thing and denied when I asked but I can strongly sense.

I think when I stop, I will be a happy stay at home mom and take care of our kids, and finally have some time for myself (workout, hobbies, friends). DH's much more inclined to "pay a babysitter/house cleaner/xxx to do whatever and you have time for those, and we still end up with bunch more money", which is true. But I don't want the lifestyle inflation, truth being told, once we started to hire out the yard care since kids came along, neither of us wanted to do that ever again. I am afraid other things will follow suit if we go down that path, which is against principle in the ER regard, at least for me. For him, it's seem if you end up with more by hire out more, that's the best solution. For the most part, I did most of the planning and pushed for frugal ways to be where we are today. He went along, not protesting, but if up to him things would have been different.

I think the other thing is that, most of his close friends are childless, either by choice or marrying late and kids have not happened yet, so most people he is close with are 2 income couple. People he works with are different, with more SAHP type  take care of the kids. But since I foolishly take on most of the childcare/coordination, I don't think he really ever appreciate how much work that entails, and that "hiring it out" attitude it really hard to change.

Metalcat

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To the open communication part, yeah I pushed and asked, he said something along the line of what Norajean said above, then sighed and said: sure you can do it if you want, I am fine with it. now let's watch the show. To 2sk22's point, he doesn't openly say about the security thing and denied when I asked but I can strongly sense.

And are you okay with your questions about important life decisions being dismissed? Will he participate in any degree of open dialogue with you? Can you propose a mutually agreed upon time to talk through your collective vision for your shared future so that he can prepare himself for it?

jlcnuke

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It sounds to me like you two haven't answered the most important question about retirement yet:
What are you retiring to?

Retiring simply to stop working a "cushy" job can easily be considered lazy. Retiring so you can spend your time doing other, specific things that you can't do while working has a purpose however.

ctuser1

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2019, 09:52:22 AM »
In a family, it is never about being right or wrong. It is always about what you feel about it, and what your SO feels about it!!

Feelings are often not logical, nor driven by numbers!

You show high degree of sensitivity to what your SO is feeling. This is a fantastic basis of approaching any compromise. Does your SO show a similar sensitivity to what you feel? If not, you may need to talk to him and help him understand that logically. Some people understand with gut, some with logic!

If your "feeling" about RE part of the FIRE, and his "feeling" about it remains incompatible, then a compromise is warranted where both sides give in something to assuage the feelings on both sides.

One option (could be totally off the mark) could be to separate the finances completely, make sure you are FI on each individual half separately (keep in mind that separate finances often don't scale as well as joint finances), and then you do what you like and he does what he likes.

In the extreme worst case, he may have such a strong gut reaction towards the whole RE concept of FIRE that you may need to totally sacrifice your desire for RE. If that were to happen, it would be a big, one sided compromise. In a family, these types of compromises should always be on the table (that is what makes it a family), but they should never be done silently without acknowledgement and understanding from the other side. And of course, next time such a big disagreement arises, both of you *should* make sure that the burden of one-sided compromises do not pile up too high only on on one of the two parties.

In my experience, the silent compromise by one party is what sets a marriage up for failure.

Laura33

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2019, 03:14:19 PM »
Hmm, sounds like he's got a pretty sweet deal:  double income, AND you handling most of the child care.  Tell me:  that other work you don't want to outsource: does he do half of that, or do you cover most of that, too?  Honestly, if I had that kind of deal, I wouldn't want to change it either!

As Ann Landers used to say, you teach people how to treat you.  He undervalues the time and mental effort that goes into handling the kids, because you have relieved him of his fair share of that work.  So if you want things to be different, you need to behave differently yourself.  Change the discussion from financial ("but you said this would be enough!") to a fair sharing of burdens.  Right now, you are currently doing two full-time jobs, plus whatever share of household chores; he is doing one, and whatever his share of those chores is.  That is an uneven distribution of labor.  So he can choose: he can take over an equal share of the home load (preferably with very specific suggestions); or you can back off the out-of-home workload.

I reached a huge frustration level with my DH about 12 years ago.  I had always thought we had a fair distribution of labor.  I was very part-time and working at home when our DD arrived, so I naturally took the lead on parenting/homecare stuff.  Then we moved, I went back to full-time work and a commute, and we added a second kid.  And by the time our son was a year or two old, I was completely overwhelmed trying to keep up with everything.  When DH made a snide comment about how it would be "nice" if the kids' laundry was put away before his parents arrived for a visit, I just snapped -- I said, "well, feel free," and stormed off.

But then I realized I wasn't being fair to him by suffering in silence until I snapped, because he was just following the same course we had laid out years before.  He still did the dishes while I cooked and shopped; he did drop-off while I did pickup; he did his laundry while I did mine (and the kids'); etc. -- it was just that the total amount of work had increased dramatically with the addition of a second kid, and my time to manage it was equally dramatically cut.  Should he have noticed that?  Um, yeah, duh.  But he didn't.  So did I want to sulk about the clueless dolt I married?  Or did I want to fix the problem?  I chose to do the latter and put the dots really, really close together for him.  I pointed out the increase in work and decrease in time, and said we needed to renegotiate, and that I was willing to discuss options, but the idea I had was to split the kids, and I asked him which kid did he want (for things like laundry, doctors' appointments, clothes shopping, etc.).  He said, thanks, but I'm happy the way things are.  I said hahaha!  That's a good one.  So which kid do you want?  He grumbled, but he chose.  ;-)

Long story, but the tl;dr is:  ask for what you want.  Say what you mean.  Tell him what you are concerned about -- don't pussyfoot around with "what do you think about xyz," tell him "I have the impression that you will lose respect for me if I don't work a paying job, and I'd like to talk about that" -- and have a couple of examples when he denies it, so you can ask him what he meant.  Etc.  A successful relationship needs to meet the needs of both partners.  That means you may need to accept that he doesn't actually want to quit now, despite the numbers, and that he would rather outsource stuff you'd rather insource; and he will need to accept that you are not as motivated by working at a career as he is and need xyz else to be fulfilled.  But you are also going to have to say it directly, because I can guarantee he is not picking up on the messages you are sending nearly as effectively as you are picking up on his. 

Metalcat

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2019, 06:48:33 PM »
Hmm, sounds like he's got a pretty sweet deal:  double income, AND you handling most of the child care.  Tell me:  that other work you don't want to outsource: does he do half of that, or do you cover most of that, too?  Honestly, if I had that kind of deal, I wouldn't want to change it either!

As Ann Landers used to say, you teach people how to treat you.  He undervalues the time and mental effort that goes into handling the kids, because you have relieved him of his fair share of that work.  So if you want things to be different, you need to behave differently yourself.  Change the discussion from financial ("but you said this would be enough!") to a fair sharing of burdens.  Right now, you are currently doing two full-time jobs, plus whatever share of household chores; he is doing one, and whatever his share of those chores is.  That is an uneven distribution of labor.  So he can choose: he can take over an equal share of the home load (preferably with very specific suggestions); or you can back off the out-of-home workload.

I reached a huge frustration level with my DH about 12 years ago.  I had always thought we had a fair distribution of labor.  I was very part-time and working at home when our DD arrived, so I naturally took the lead on parenting/homecare stuff.  Then we moved, I went back to full-time work and a commute, and we added a second kid.  And by the time our son was a year or two old, I was completely overwhelmed trying to keep up with everything.  When DH made a snide comment about how it would be "nice" if the kids' laundry was put away before his parents arrived for a visit, I just snapped -- I said, "well, feel free," and stormed off.

But then I realized I wasn't being fair to him by suffering in silence until I snapped, because he was just following the same course we had laid out years before.  He still did the dishes while I cooked and shopped; he did drop-off while I did pickup; he did his laundry while I did mine (and the kids'); etc. -- it was just that the total amount of work had increased dramatically with the addition of a second kid, and my time to manage it was equally dramatically cut.  Should he have noticed that?  Um, yeah, duh.  But he didn't.  So did I want to sulk about the clueless dolt I married?  Or did I want to fix the problem?  I chose to do the latter and put the dots really, really close together for him.  I pointed out the increase in work and decrease in time, and said we needed to renegotiate, and that I was willing to discuss options, but the idea I had was to split the kids, and I asked him which kid did he want (for things like laundry, doctors' appointments, clothes shopping, etc.).  He said, thanks, but I'm happy the way things are.  I said hahaha!  That's a good one.  So which kid do you want?  He grumbled, but he chose.  ;-)

Long story, but the tl;dr is:  ask for what you want.  Say what you mean.  Tell him what you are concerned about -- don't pussyfoot around with "what do you think about xyz," tell him "I have the impression that you will lose respect for me if I don't work a paying job, and I'd like to talk about that" -- and have a couple of examples when he denies it, so you can ask him what he meant.  Etc.  A successful relationship needs to meet the needs of both partners.  That means you may need to accept that he doesn't actually want to quit now, despite the numbers, and that he would rather outsource stuff you'd rather insource; and he will need to accept that you are not as motivated by working at a career as he is and need xyz else to be fulfilled.  But you are also going to have to say it directly, because I can guarantee he is not picking up on the messages you are sending nearly as effectively as you are picking up on his.

Yup.

Laura very clearly articulated exactly what I was trying to nudge you towards.

If you want to be understood, you must first be heard.
Just because he wasn't in the mood to talk when you tried doesn't mean he doesn't care about your hopes, fears, and feelings. It means that he didn't recognize that you had something important to say.

If he's a good partner, then he cares. No exception.
Give him what he needs in order to demonstrate that he cares. Communicate clearly what you need, and if what you need is time and space to be heard, then tell him that you need him to take the time to hear you.

If he says "can I get back to watching my show?" when you express yourself, then you can say "sure, but I'm going to need some undivided attention to talk through some things this week, when works best for you?" Either he'll stop in his tracks and talk then and there, or he'll agree to a mutually appropriate time to discuss.

Some people can seem incredibly dismissive, because they need to be emotionally prepared for conversations that require vulnerability. Meanwhile, their partner just feels dismissed and as though their thoughts and feelings are unimportant.

Not only is Laura spot on that he's not picking up on your unspoken needs, but I guarantee you aren't picking up on his. You have been married to him for many years, but unless there's open dialogue, you don't actually know what his deepest fears and hopes are regarding your life and your future unless he shares them.

People protect their soft parts, it's human instinct, it takes exceptional trust and constant practice to be open about the things that hurt us most and give us the most hope.

If he's not a good partner, on the other hand...you have a much bigger issue.


EscapeVelocity2020

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2019, 08:29:13 PM »
You've had some really good responses to think about from Laura33 and Malkynn.  The other thought I had, along a different line, was that you may need to do the 'We are FI' presentation to get his mindset to shift.  It is not an insignificant hurdle to get from 'we are saving loads and life is easy' to 'we have saved enough and can make this work'.  I have every confidence that you two will be happier on the other side, but it's like jumping out of a plane - some people have the mindset and are just ready to go, looking forward to finally jumping, and some people think it would be awesome but get cold feet when the day to jump arrives.  The best way to get the SO on board is spending time talking them through how safe, positive, and necessary this step is. 

You might uncover some surprising anxieties that need to be worked through.  It is a significant life change, for some more than others.

MomOntheGo

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2019, 08:42:50 AM »
Thank you, all, for your well-thought out advice! He is travelling this week for work, and I am doing some self reflection and planning on working this out. The self introspection leads to the "shocking" finding that over the past years, besides adding a couple of kiddos, I have changed, not so much him!!! At the risk of a storm of face punching, here is what I have found out, about us and in particular myself.

1. Division of labor - tried that multiple times, but each time when someone is sick, or other stuff comes up, or after a while (maybe a couple of months?) it slowly reversed back. For example, dog poop pick up duty. He would do it more diligently at the beginning, then winter comes, or workload crashing down, etc. it changed from everyday to every other day to every week! Imagine the amount of poo in the backyard! Then instead of nagging everyday, I would start doing it again, before a big rain or snow come for example. Quite frankly, a huge amount of poop there doesn't bother him nearly as much as it bothers me. Similar for laundry, he dose it, and he try to fold it, and I pretty much refold it every time. It looks like bunch of balls pile on each other, I do have higher standard on that. I clean the rest of the house in between cleaning lady's visit, but never touch his office or his basement man cave, because that's his responsibilities. As you can see, we have very different standard and tolerance level on things like that. It doesn't bother him a bit with bunch of poop in the backyard, or drawer is mess with balls of "clean clothes" or cobweb at the corner of the desk, but it gives me heartburn every time I sees it. I wouldn't say he is a complete mess because that's really not fair he dose try to clean once a week, it's just we have VERY different priority and standard in those things these days. If he has his way, he would outsource all that, and be very happy with it. With me, either I look the other way, or be more hands on and take over, because I don't want to hire everything out, or nagging on things like that regularly. But it annoys me a lot. Interestingly, I think I was little messier than I am now before kids. It's like the nesting instinct kicked in after kids and now mess bothers me a lot more than it used to. I am pretty sure he always fold laundry like that but it didn't bother me that much in the past, and I didn't pick up poop daily before kids. So I changed!

2. Value about paid work - He is driven, works very hard and long hours, and of the "suck it up" mentality when things get tough at work. I was like that too, before kids, and obviously not anymore. He came from a hard working family, with parents of very limited resources, who worked multiple jobs and juggle everything just to put a roof on their heads and food on the table. If not because discovering MMM years ago, I would be pretty much like him, rolling my eyes at people who "threw away" a "cushy job" or a "great career" to do something they love but may not pay. So I understand where he come from. It has just occurred to me that, all these years, before and after kids, he sort of followed along my semi MMM lifestyle because he was raise frugal and I kind of made it easy for him, I love to cook so very little dining out, I plan strategically for every low cost travel to far flung parts of the world, etc. etc. We didn't buy clown house or cars or accumulate stuff because it doesn't appeal to us. We by not means hardcore MMM,  the high saving rate really comes from rising income with very low lifestyle inflation. So in short, again. It's me who changed, who want more of "my life in my control" while he cruise along happily where he always has been.

3. About the number. Originally we aimed for XX$ + paid off house, and we are there today. But now the kids are bigger, we are considering moving to a better school district (ours really sucks), and of course that takes more money. We always said the kids should pay at least half of their college expense, both DH and I were on our own for college when back in the days it was actually affordable. But now we have the means (if work a bit longer) to give them the gift of debt-free graduation. That would be nice, right? except for if I quit/laid off, all that burden of better school district and kids college will fall on him. That's where I felt guilty. I can't have it all, and it's not fair, to hope for a lot more(house + college), and not contributing to all that, without the partner OK with it. I know a lot of people out there are OK with that, but not me, hence the guilt. So here is that, we hit a number, then the goal post moved!

Quite frankly, I need more soul searching on what I really want and how to get there. But thank you all for getting me thinking, and to be honest with myself. Perhaps the OMY thing kicked in already (school district and college is a form of cushion), or perhaps I don't really have a real vision for ER life, but in the frenzy of kids + work, it's the easy way out. I certainly have more homework to do myself, otherwise it's not fair or prudent. Thank you all again!

BabyShark

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2019, 09:33:11 AM »
That would be nice, right? except for if I quit/laid off, all that burden of better school district and kids college will fall on him. That's where I felt guilty. I can't have it all, and it's not fair, to hope for a lot more(house + college), and not contributing to all that, without the partner OK with it.

But the burden doesn't fall all on him.  You'd still be contributing even if it's not with a paycheck. I think that's what y'all need to get on the same page about, that value comes from more than just money.

Laura33

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2019, 10:29:05 AM »
[snip]

I'm really glad you have had the chance to think things through and identify all of the different contributors.  It makes total sense that things that didn't bother you before do now, because the overall workload with dogs and kids is quite a bit more than it used to be.  And if you are picking up the bulk over the overage, due to a combination of higher standards and its-just-easier-than-nagging-him, then of course you are the one who wants something to change.

I feel you on the moving goalposts thing, as my DH is also the one who wants nicer/bigger -- and, honestly, I grew up poor and was more than happy to go along and have/do things I never thought were options (I rationalized it as if it was his idea, it wasn't my fault, so I could still think of myself as the frugal one).  It is frustrating to be at a point where we could both quit and play, and to have him more interested in his job than ever, and more interested in making more and more money than ever.  We had to talk and compromise (I agreed to work longer, he agreed that I could go part-time whenever I wanted -- although I think he was still a little shocked when I did!).

Given that a lot of things have changed for both of you since you originally planned things out, it's definitely time to start talking -- not about any particular solution or plan, but more like "hey, things have changed, what do we both really want, and how can we develop a plan to get as much as possible of what we both want?"  And that is really an emotions/values/life goals talk, where you need to understand what drives him (as Malkynn said) as much as he needs to understand what drives you.  And you need to understand how much those "extras" really matter to you, vs. just blaming him for them; either choice is completely reasonable, what matters is that you own yours.

One more example from the BTDT files:  my DH drives me batshit eating lunch out.  For as long as we have been married, he has eaten out every day, and often treats his guys.  So here I am brown-bagging my leftovers, and he spends in one day more than I "save" in a week, and I was getting pissed.  So we talked, and he really drew the line on the lunches; this mattered to him, a lot.  Part of it was the mental break; he needed to leave the office and go sit down with friends and have someone serve him stuff.  Part of it is that he likes variety in food.  But part of it was also that being able to spend money frivolously and treat other people made him feel successful.  Now, to me, that was stupid as all-get-out.  But that's part of who he is, part of the ethos he inherited, and something he has zero desire to change.  So my job as his partner was to figure out a budget and lifestyle that still allows him that feeling of "extra" money and generosity; and his job as my partner was to make sure that his frivolous stuff fit within our larger plan so I wasn't paying the price for it beyond what we'd agreed to.

And one final non-monetary suggestion:  divide the chores based on who cares less.  It makes zero sense for him to do his "share" of the chores doing stuff that you're going to re-do anyway.  So find things that you don't care about that he can handle.  E.g., my DH does the dishes, because I hate it; but he only does them when absolutely necessary.  So we just got a really big, deep sink so I don't have to look at the pile.  ;-)  And if you agree on something and yiour DH doesn't live up to his end of the bargain, you do need to hold him to it.  If he can demonstrate a strong "suck it up" mentality at work, he can damn well exhibit the same mentality toward the dog poo covering your back yard.  Because that's just gross and affects your kids' ability to play outside safely/healthfully.  Please treat him like the grown-up he is on the commitments he makes.

BrightFIRE

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2019, 11:12:34 AM »
1. Division of labor - tried that multiple times, but each time when someone is sick, or other stuff comes up, or after a while (maybe a couple of months?) it slowly reversed back. For example, dog poop pick up duty. He would do it more diligently at the beginning, then winter comes, or workload crashing down, etc. it changed from everyday to every other day to every week! Imagine the amount of poo in the backyard! Then instead of nagging everyday, I would start doing it again, before a big rain or snow come for example. Quite frankly, a huge amount of poop there doesn't bother him nearly as much as it bothers me. Similar for laundry, he dose it, and he try to fold it, and I pretty much refold it every time. It looks like bunch of balls pile on each other, I do have higher standard on that. I clean the rest of the house in between cleaning lady's visit, but never touch his office or his basement man cave, because that's his responsibilities. As you can see, we have very different standard and tolerance level on things like that. It doesn't bother him a bit with bunch of poop in the backyard, or drawer is mess with balls of "clean clothes" or cobweb at the corner of the desk, but it gives me heartburn every time I sees it. I wouldn't say he is a complete mess because that's really not fair he dose try to clean once a week, it's just we have VERY different priority and standard in those things these days. If he has his way, he would outsource all that, and be very happy with it. With me, either I look the other way, or be more hands on and take over, because I don't want to hire everything out, or nagging on things like that regularly. But it annoys me a lot. Interestingly, I think I was little messier than I am now before kids. It's like the nesting instinct kicked in after kids and now mess bothers me a lot more than it used to. I am pretty sure he always fold laundry like that but it didn't bother me that much in the past, and I didn't pick up poop daily before kids. So I changed!

Don't devalue your own opinion by saying, "well, I didn't care so much before, so obviously this doesn't matter". In my 20s, I used to be the procrastinator who never put the laundry away and just picked clothes from the clean pile - that doesn't mean that way was better or that it's wrong to care about putting my clothes away now.

What you're doing is a lot of mental labor. You are not only doing your own tasks/chores, but you are also tracking his to make sure they get done. That's not acceptable in a house with 2 competent adults. If he has agreed to pick up the poop, he needs to pick it up, not ignore it until you do it. And you need to stop reinforcing that behavior by doing it. You also need to acknowledge that mental labor is work - this is one I struggle with personally, but your brain can only handle so many things at once. There is no reason at all for you to be handling everything, but your husband needs to hear that you are stressed and you need to ask him to help carry his share of the burden of running the house.

In my relationship, I cook and my SO does the dishes. He used to not bother to pay attention to where things "belonged" and would just chuck them in any open cabinet. I sat down with him and told him that made it harder for me because I never knew where anything was, so I needed him to make the effort to learn where things go. He didn't understand my perspective, so I shared why his choice made my life harder. You don't have to nag, but you do need to speak up for yourself.

We've also talked about doing a thorough job, instead of half-assing it; I need to know that I can count on him to do his chores without following along behind as though he is a child. With the laundry issue, either ask him to put the effort into folding things the way you like, or let it go and don't think about it. So, if it's because things fit better in the drawer if they are folded a certain way, or if the way he folds causes wrinkles that need to be ironed out, say that. If it's literally just "I wouldn't do it that way" let it go. I do not ever open the dishwasher because I would not load it the same way - but that's not my chore, so I let it go.

I won't get into the guilt, but that is another mental burden you should try to address.

Here4theGB

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2019, 01:27:19 PM »
I'm guessing you have a "number" that is way too small (common on this website) and your husband realizes this.  You see it often here with people's "number."  IE:  "I'm 42 y/o, 2 small kids, have a 750k stache, can live on 30k a year, peace I'm out!"  That sort of thing is a recipe for disaster.

I say this because you said that paying for 2 college tuitions causes your ER model to fail.  What can we agree college costs here?  100k a piece?  200k should be a pretty insignificant % of a portfolio tasked with a 40-60 year retirement for 2 people that still have young dependents.  Like REALLY insignificant.  If it's a large enough % to be even a minor concern, your "number" is too small.

Just a WAG.

ctuser1

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2019, 01:56:39 PM »
MomOntheGo,

You seem to be discounting your ideas a bit too much saying you are “the one that changed”.

Yes, priorities change, people evolve, that is life!!

Assuming your changes in priorities  are genuine and not frivolous, he should absolutely value them as much as if they were lifelong positions of yours.

I also sense that your SO may not even be aware of what you are thinking. My wife used to complain a lot initially that she has to spell things out explicitly for me to understand! I never, till date, understood what’s there to complain about it!! Well, she is quite direct now-a-days and communication has, I believe, improved!! Could some issue like this be going on here?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2019, 04:51:08 PM by ctuser1 »

MomOntheGo

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2019, 07:06:00 PM »
Again, many thanks!!!!!

Communication is definitely an issue here. Naively, I take no fighting and agree on most important things as "we communicate well". Actually it's not that great, some of the things are more like kicking the can down the road. And quite honestly, until recently I never REALLY sit down and ponder of who I am (besides being a mom, wife and and my job) and who I want to be and how I want to live MY life (not a one year goal of fancy trips etc, but 5,10, 20 year outlook), I guess you can't stop the growing up when it's time, when the kids a bit older and I am a bit less sleep deprived. :)

Quick to do list here ( not in specific order):

1. On chores, get a list of stuff we/I do, by frequency, and time consumed, including the planning(the mental labor!!). I don't honestly know, but I guess it's a lot. I am a very efficient person and I am BUSY and literally spinning sometimes. There is no division of labor till I know what to divide of.

2. Even if I can't get a clear picture of those bigger life questions of who I am or who I want to be in RE, at least I know what I love and really dislike, even by elimination may not give the full picture yet, it's a start

3. Figure out a communication strategy. It's biggie. Still working on it. Some may say, it's a huge thing and can't wait another minute, but if you come home exhausted one day and your spouse come with this giant topic with list and figures and presentations and expect answers, well at least I don't think I will get the answer that way. Need to get my priorities right, like what I would like to achieve (more frequent communication on important things , what are those things, our goals/reasoning/feelings behind those, can we set up a common goal and how far along we really are.. etc. etc), then we handle them piece by piece. If anyone tired this and failed or see some obvious flaws, please shout!

4. Re-crunch the numbers. What is really need vs. want. Quite frankly, paying full college ride(tuition, fees, room & board) for 2 kids probably will wrack most people's RE plan on this forum. My number is 400K in today's $ for the both of them, don't want to open a side debate on what's enough. Just saying we need to reevaluate and make a decision that we are comfortable with accordingly. And that future house, not gonna be big or fancy, but will end up in some very expensive zip code for the schools. One thing for sure is that we are definitely falling into the meritocracy traps but can't seem to get our heads out of it.. so there is that.

That looks like good start, says the eternal optimist in me :)

Metalcat

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2019, 04:32:42 AM »
I'm guessing you have a "number" that is way too small (common on this website) and your husband realizes this.  You see it often here with people's "number."  IE:  "I'm 42 y/o, 2 small kids, have a 750k stache, can live on 30k a year, peace I'm out!"  That sort of thing is a recipe for disaster.

Is it though??

I see a lot more cautionary references to this type of person here than actual cases of people quitting work forever on lean 'staches, 4% WRs, and no contingencies.

If someone is posting here, by default I assume that they're statistically far more likely to be overly conservative than overly optimistic or reckless.

ctuser1

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2019, 05:04:05 AM »
I’m one of those “overly conservative” people.

I define my lean FI point in the US = US$2mm = $50k/yr @ SWR 2.5%.

Why the “ridiculously low” SWR? Well, the 4% research was done with a 30year retirement in mind, not 60year or longer (with medical advances).

I don’t usually post my “overly conservative” numbers and goals on this board because I do know I don’t exactly fit in with the ethos of this board’s majority where people not only call it FI but actually RE @ < US$ 1mm.

It’ll probably sound further ridiculous that I don’t expect to RE after my definition of lean-FI. DW used to say she would (though she has been singing a different tune for the last 6mo or so). Anyway, I want to work towards a fat-FI + pay for kids college, ie do more typical bogleheads stuff.

I love this board because mustachian frugality, whatever I can learn from here, will get me to my goals - ridiculous or not - faster. ie, I want to become bogleheads-FI faster by being a mustachian.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 05:11:20 AM by ctuser1 »

Metalcat

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2019, 05:21:48 AM »
Again, many thanks!!!!!

Communication is definitely an issue here. Naively, I take no fighting and agree on most important things as "we communicate well". Actually it's not that great, some of the things are more like kicking the can down the road. And quite honestly, until recently I never REALLY sit down and ponder of who I am (besides being a mom, wife and and my job) and who I want to be and how I want to live MY life (not a one year goal of fancy trips etc, but 5,10, 20 year outlook), I guess you can't stop the growing up when it's time, when the kids a bit older and I am a bit less sleep deprived. :)

Quick to do list here ( not in specific order):

1. On chores, get a list of stuff we/I do, by frequency, and time consumed, including the planning(the mental labor!!). I don't honestly know, but I guess it's a lot. I am a very efficient person and I am BUSY and literally spinning sometimes. There is no division of labor till I know what to divide of.

Division of labour isn't like a union contract that needs to be negotiated in detail at one point in time and then set in stone. You don't need to figure out anything beyond needing more help NOW to get things done.

Division of labour is an organic process that constantly changes over time. It comes back to communication. My DH knows when to step in and take over more tasks from me because I communicate what I'm struggling with.
Likewise, I know to volunteer to take over laundry when he's overworked.

You don't need to "get it right and set it", you need to be more transparent about how these tasks are affecting you and how limited your shared resources are in handling the household workload.


2. Even if I can't get a clear picture of those bigger life questions of who I am or who I want to be in RE, at least I know what I love and really dislike, even by elimination may not give the full picture yet, it's a start

Also not another "set it and forget it" thing. Who you are is also a process, not a static state to be known at some point.

It's also not something you need to know before sharing with your spouse. It's actually something you can come to know better *through* sharing with your spouse.


3. Figure out a communication strategy. It's biggie. Still working on it. Some may say, it's a huge thing and can't wait another minute, but if you come home exhausted one day and your spouse come with this giant topic with list and figures and presentations and expect answers, well at least I don't think I will get the answer that way. Need to get my priorities right, like what I would like to achieve (more frequent communication on important things , what are those things, our goals/reasoning/feelings behind those, can we set up a common goal and how far along we really are.. etc. etc), then we handle them piece by piece. If anyone tired this and failed or see some obvious flaws, please shout!

This is a repeated theme of yours, trying to cram communication into a busy lifestyle when there's no time for it.

Well...k...first, communication isn't a discrete event that happens for a set amount of time about specific topics. Communication happens every single time you are in contact with someone. It's literally impossible to avoid.

I'm not saying that every moment is appropriate for addressing heavy topics and conflict, but literally every moment IS appropriate for open communication that is more than just functional.

My best advice for you is to not try and make communicating something it's not. It's not an all-or-nothing, fundamentally serious thing. It's not "we need to talk".

You can start by just being a little more open all the time. Ask clarifying questions every time he says something that you don't 100% understand. Volunteer information about your motivations behind things and not just the facts of what you want.

Example 1
He comes home after a long day and doesn't seem in the mood to talk about anything.
You can ask "do you need some quiet time? You seem burdened by your work day" even if he doesn't want to talk, you are introducing an element of communication about vulnerable feelings in a much more meaningful way than "hi honey, how was your day?"

Example 2
Instead of talking about wanting to leave your job, talk openly about what your job gives you and what it doesn't give you, what it takes from you and your family, and what meaning you get or don't get from it. Make your musings about your career a shared process, let him in to the workings of the gears in your head as you yourself process what your career means to you. This doesn't have to be a super serious conversation, or even a long one, just an open dialogue a little bit each day that may sometimes develop into a full blown conversation.

Intentional, big conversations about serious issues can be planned if you find that works for you two. My DH is reticent, skittish, and not a natural sharer when it comes to conflict and complicated emotions. I give him plenty of lead time when I need to discuss something difficult, and we always go for a long walk.

For other couples, this is the WORST approach because it can trigger anxiety through anticipation.

Figuring out the best approach for two people both in heightened states is...challenging.

Difficult conversations will never be easy, that's why they're difficult conversations. Learning how best to handle them is, again, a process. The better your communication, the easier they will become over time.

...but no, it will never be easy.

Avoiding difficult conversations is easy.
Toxic as hell, but very easy.


4. Re-crunch the numbers. What is really need vs. want. Quite frankly, paying full college ride(tuition, fees, room & board) for 2 kids probably will wrack most people's RE plan on this forum. My number is 400K in today's $ for the both of them, don't want to open a side debate on what's enough. Just saying we need to reevaluate and make a decision that we are comfortable with accordingly. And that future house, not gonna be big or fancy, but will end up in some very expensive zip code for the schools. One thing for sure is that we are definitely falling into the meritocracy traps but can't seem to get our heads out of it.. so there is that.

The number isn't actually all that important. It seems like it is, but it really isn't. You need to get on board in terms of priorities for the number to make any sense.

As per Laura's comment, the goal posts can so easily move, so setting an arbitrary number is not the same as being aligned in terms of life goals, it literally ONLY means that you two are in agreement today about how much of your income you shouldn't spend right now. The moment things change, you lose your North Star and are left completely lost as to where the other stands.

This is where communication is so critical. It's very easy to mistake being on the same page today with having a shared vision for the future.


That looks like good start, says the eternal optimist in me :)

It's a great start, and remember that it's the start of something that will last forever. It's a slow and steady lifestyle change, not a crash diet to figure yourself out and fix your communication.

There's no end goal here, the process is the goal, so take it slow and have fun with it.

habanero

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2019, 05:53:16 AM »
I’m one of those “overly conservative” people.

I define my lean FI point in the US = US$2mm = $50k/yr @ SWR 2.5%.

Why the “ridiculously low” SWR? Well, the 4% research was done with a 30year retirement in mind, not 60year or longer (with medical advances).

The SWR is one thing and you could argue as you do for longer periods than 30 years, or even make a fairly valid case for why equity returns are likely to be lower in the future than the past etc. But what's REALLY conservative about 4% (or 3% or 2% or whatever) is that it assumes no further income ever in life. Which is rather unlikely. So is, quite frankly constant expenses. Old people tend to spend considerably less, kinds eventually move out and so on. Some might do some consulting gigs, some may return to paid work for shorter or longer periods for some time and most are likely at some point to receive some sort of inheritance - the size of which of course can vary a lot. On top of that you have stuff like social security and other types of pensions etcetc.

On the flipside you have downside risks like rally big health expenses (less of to not an issue with public healthcare), very low market returns for prolonged periods during retirement, lifestyle creep, change in tax regime (we have wealth tax - so it's a thing, and 30-40-50 years is a long time) and probably a few other things as well.

MomOntheGo

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2019, 09:27:17 AM »
Malkynn, you are spot on on the "repeated theme" that I have treated a lot of this as project management with a set of measurable results instead of a growth process. I am a little disappointed (and hang my head in shame) that as a grown woman I didn't realize it till someone pointed it out to me with my own list. It will take sometime to really appreciate, internalize, and put it to use. But recognition is a first step - as the eternal optimist whisper on my shoulder.

I also want to thank others, brightfire, ctuser, babyshark, for letting me see the tendency of discounting myself when I see something not working. I have had this tendency for as long as I can remember, not sure why, I guess it's better than always pointing the finger at others, but the way I deal with it is not healthy. Between this, lack of healthy communication, and taking on everything with a degree of resentment, this is pretty much a march to the martyrdome and I would implode. I don't want to implode!

Laura 33, you are one wise woman, so glad to have you on the forum! I think I will come back to this point to read and think from time to time just to remind myself.

This has been a therapeutic session to say the least. I am a little anxious because it is a lot to think of and change, and I am not yet good at dealing with something like this as a long-term process, but I am also hopeful. So thank you all!

partgypsy

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2019, 12:39:52 PM »
Well it sounds like you agreed on a number way back, but as things changed your husband feels that number needs to be bigger. So no, you don't agree on the "number".  Like you said things have changed as well. You are thinking of changing neighborhoods, and also contributing more to your kid's college costs. Sounds like you need to revisit what your joint goals are, what your number is, and figure things out from there. It is possible that you may disagree (you may feel you don't need to contribute additionally to college, while your husband feels you should fund 100%). The main thing is to reach some kind of compromise.

There is no wrong on right answer, but even when reading your posts, things that you say you value, like funding college, or a better school district, if you truly value them, then you should be willing to delay FIRE to make those things happen. And feel good that you are able to even make that decision. If you are not willing to forgoe fire, then as well, be content that you are making the best decision given the circumstances, and no kid died because they had to go to a community college for the first 1 or 2 years of college, or a state school instead of an ivy league school. 

Some additional questions. How often does the housekeeper come? Maybe have the person come once a week to save wear and tear on your relationship? I also hate picking up poop or cleaning out the kitty litter box. So when my kids are here that is their defacto job and they alternate doing it. Unless a really little kid YES have this be the kids chore.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 12:44:15 PM by partgypsy »

ChpBstrd

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2019, 01:13:34 PM »
The general advice for married people is to make financial decisions together, by consensus. This strategy works well for housing, cars, investments, the shoe budget, etc. However, I think when it comes to a decision to FIRE without a partner who is held back by insecurities or is a workaholic, one might need to revert a little bit back to the individual decision making mode and tell the other one “We have >25x our annual spending so I am retiring to do more important things than corporate work. You really ought to join me, but make your own decision.” The alternative to being this assertive is giving your spouse the option to put you in corporate jail for the next five years of your finite life for the sake of their own insecurities. Maybe they don’t get that right when the math is on your side? Also, it makes this discussion something different than, say, a discussion about whether we should buy a fancy air fryer. This is not a purchase suggestion, it is a retirement plan. You are following through on the original plan and he is not.

Also, there are many, many highly competent young professionals out there looking for an opportunity to be promoted and not finding those opportunities because all the seats are taken by older people who are just paying for overconsumption or have not saved enough for retirement. To remove yet another position from their limited opportunity set just so the incumbent can retire with more money than they need is an economic waste in itself and a direct setback to someone else. Work is a waste at this point!

In the end, he can’t make you work. The issue is whether he will shame you or lose respect for you for retiring. Ask this directly, as suggested, and set up a counseling appointment if the answer is yes.

mm1970

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2019, 02:04:54 PM »
Quote
1. Division of labor - tried that multiple times, but each time when someone is sick, or other stuff comes up, or after a while (maybe a couple of months?) it slowly reversed back. For example, dog poop pick up duty. He would do it more diligently at the beginning, then winter comes, or workload crashing down, etc. it changed from everyday to every other day to every week! Imagine the amount of poo in the backyard! Then instead of nagging everyday, I would start doing it again, before a big rain or snow come for example. Quite frankly, a huge amount of poop there doesn't bother him nearly as much as it bothers me. Similar for laundry, he dose it, and he try to fold it, and I pretty much refold it every time. It looks like bunch of balls pile on each other, I do have higher standard on that. I clean the rest of the house in between cleaning lady's visit, but never touch his office or his basement man cave, because that's his responsibilities. As you can see, we have very different standard and tolerance level on things like that. It doesn't bother him a bit with bunch of poop in the backyard, or drawer is mess with balls of "clean clothes" or cobweb at the corner of the desk, but it gives me heartburn every time I sees it. I wouldn't say he is a complete mess because that's really not fair he dose try to clean once a week, it's just we have VERY different priority and standard in those things these days. If he has his way, he would outsource all that, and be very happy with it. With me, either I look the other way, or be more hands on and take over, because I don't want to hire everything out, or nagging on things like that regularly. But it annoys me a lot. Interestingly, I think I was little messier than I am now before kids. It's like the nesting instinct kicked in after kids and now mess bothers me a lot more than it used to. I am pretty sure he always fold laundry like that but it didn't bother me that much in the past, and I didn't pick up poop daily before kids. So I changed!

2. Value about paid work - He is driven, works very hard and long hours, and of the "suck it up" mentality when things get tough at work. I was like that too, before kids, and obviously not anymore. He came from a hard working family, with parents of very limited resources, who worked multiple jobs and juggle everything just to put a roof on their heads and food on the table. If not because discovering MMM years ago, I would be pretty much like him, rolling my eyes at people who "threw away" a "cushy job" or a "great career" to do something they love but may not pay. So I understand where he come from. It has just occurred to me that, all these years, before and after kids, he sort of followed along my semi MMM lifestyle because he was raise frugal and I kind of made it easy for him, I love to cook so very little dining out, I plan strategically for every low cost travel to far flung parts of the world, etc. etc. We didn't buy clown house or cars or accumulate stuff because it doesn't appeal to us. We by not means hardcore MMM,  the high saving rate really comes from rising income with very low lifestyle inflation. So in short, again. It's me who changed, who want more of "my life in my control" while he cruise along happily where he always has been.
Boy can I relate to a lot of that.

Division of labor - don't know how old the kids are - I've been training my teen, and it's work.  I mean, I finally got him to take out the trash weekly, when spouse is traveling, then spouse comes back and starts doing it again.  NO.  It takes work to remind someone over and over that it's trash day, but after a month or two, it's part of the routine.  And yes, you may have to remind your spouse many many times in a row to go pick up the dog poop.  And it's mental labor.  But do it, until it's a habit for him.

Laundry: let him fold his own laundry if he wants to ball it up.  Our kids are 13 and 7.  Hubby used to do all the laundry.  In order to get the kids to fold their own, we just switched to "everyone folds their own laundry".  He still washes and dries, but then we put into 4 piles. 

Household cleanliness standards.  Haven't figured that out because literally, my boys  and hubby will leave stuff laying EVERYWHERE and I swear they don't see it.  Drives me batty.  I end up picking up a LOT but that means, honestly, the "have to pick up the day before the cleaning lady comes" prep is ALL everyone else.  I don't do it.

2.  My family growing up was eerily similar.  It's taken me a long time to get over the "suck it up and WORK" attitude because I think that can be very detrimental long term and result in mental health issues.

This is a great thread in general.  Especially with communication. Hubby and I need communicate better, even after 23 years of marriage. He complained to me today that he cannot fall back asleep after my 5 am alarm goes off.  Now, are there solutions to that?  He's a night owl, I am a morning person.  I would be MUCH more likely to try and figure out a solution, like turning the alarm off on the days I wake up naturally before the alarm, or using my watch as an alarm.  HOWEVER, the dude snores, I frequently end up on the couch (5/7 nights), and he promised he'd ask the doc about it OVER A YEAR AGO AND HE HASN'T BOTHERED TO GO. I mean, I did remind him to please go see the doctor.

Marriage is work I tell ya!!

AMandM

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2019, 04:21:14 PM »
You've already had lots of good advice from people wiser than I, but I wanted to add one more thing about communication. Better communication is not only about improving the delivery of your thoughts so that the other person understands you better, but also about each person improving the ability to listen and understand the other.  This doesn't mean discounting yourself, but counting both of you as worth hearing.  The example that jumped out at me is you working longer and his picking up dog poop--each of you wants the other to do something the other doesn't value. I think, even without any particular decision, if the two of you can express more of your attitudes about income/stress and clean grass/labour, the feelings of mutual resentment might go down.

cloudsail

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2019, 06:59:17 PM »
Your DH sounds very similar to mine, and one of my concerns before deciding to become a stay at home mom was that he would undervalue my contributions to our family now that I was no longer bringing in any income. Thankfully this hasn't been the case, but our situation is a little unique because we have a child with special needs and I homeschool both our children. But I also don't think my DH would be as aware of the value and amount of work it is to take care of a household and raise children if I haven't been drumming it into him for over ten years. So while he still ties his own worth to his work and the money he makes, at least he doesn't do the same to me.

Sibley

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2019, 08:08:54 AM »
I think the other thing is that, most of his close friends are childless, either by choice or marrying late and kids have not happened yet, so most people he is close with are 2 income couple. People he works with are different, with more SAHP type  take care of the kids. But since I foolishly take on most of the childcare/coordination, I don't think he really ever appreciate how much work that entails, and that "hiring it out" attitude it really hard to change.

Well, this you can fix pretty easily at least. Leave.

Just for a week. But leave. Decamp. Turn off the phone, turn off social media, etc. Off the grid. Let him deal with kids and house and everything, on his own, for a full week. And don't do special prep for him before you go - let him deal with feeding the kids, and the regular laundry and cleaning, etc. Even better if he has to navigate a doctor's office with the kids. Because a good dose of reality is going to do more to change his attitude and respect for you than anything else.

partgypsy

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2019, 08:12:02 AM »
I think the other thing is that, most of his close friends are childless, either by choice or marrying late and kids have not happened yet, so most people he is close with are 2 income couple. People he works with are different, with more SAHP type  take care of the kids. But since I foolishly take on most of the childcare/coordination, I don't think he really ever appreciate how much work that entails, and that "hiring it out" attitude it really hard to change.

Well, this you can fix pretty easily at least. Leave.

Just for a week. But leave. Decamp. Turn off the phone, turn off social media, etc. Off the grid. Let him deal with kids and house and everything, on his own, for a full week. And don't do special prep for him before you go - let him deal with feeding the kids, and the regular laundry and cleaning, etc. Even better if he has to navigate a doctor's office with the kids. Because a good dose of reality is going to do more to change his attitude and respect for you than anything else.
This is actually a pretty good idea. But knowing how my office is, you might want to give him some notice ahead of time, like 1 or 2 weeks for him to reschedule things at the office.

Sibley

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2019, 08:18:55 AM »
I think the other thing is that, most of his close friends are childless, either by choice or marrying late and kids have not happened yet, so most people he is close with are 2 income couple. People he works with are different, with more SAHP type  take care of the kids. But since I foolishly take on most of the childcare/coordination, I don't think he really ever appreciate how much work that entails, and that "hiring it out" attitude it really hard to change.

Well, this you can fix pretty easily at least. Leave.

Just for a week. But leave. Decamp. Turn off the phone, turn off social media, etc. Off the grid. Let him deal with kids and house and everything, on his own, for a full week. And don't do special prep for him before you go - let him deal with feeding the kids, and the regular laundry and cleaning, etc. Even better if he has to navigate a doctor's office with the kids. Because a good dose of reality is going to do more to change his attitude and respect for you than anything else.
This is actually a pretty good idea. But knowing how my office is, you might want to give him some notice ahead of time, like 1 or 2 weeks for him to reschedule things at the office.

I recommend it because it works. An acquaintance is a SAHM and the husband was being a giant dickhead about her never doing anything, etc. It was beyond obnoxious to witness, much less live with. So she visited her family. In another country. For a month. And I think she gave him about 3 days notice. When she came back (after ignoring a lot of desperate phone calls and emails - she technically had the ability to check them, but chose not to bother), he had done a complete 180. I think she insisted on couples therapy for a while as well. Last I heard, they're still married and their marriage was much healthier.

ctuser1

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2019, 08:27:19 AM »
I recommend it because it works. An acquaintance is a SAHM and the husband was being a giant dickhead about her never doing anything, etc. It was beyond obnoxious to witness, much less live with. So she visited her family. In another country. For a month. And I think she gave him about 3 days notice. When she came back (after ignoring a lot of desperate phone calls and emails - she technically had the ability to check them, but chose not to bother), he had done a complete 180. I think she insisted on couples therapy for a while as well. Last I heard, they're still married and their marriage was much healthier.

In practical terms it is probably quite effective!

I *have been* in this shoe of being the clueless spouse who was suddenly tasked with minding the kids (this was not by my spouse's design - but circumstances made it so that I "had to" take this up). I am still clueless, but less so. Kids won't starve left to me - just get upset because I can't help them with properly matched clothes and my elder daughter once commented it feels like a fire-drill when I get them ready in the morning rather than their mom.

But I wonder if this is the "correct" or "ethical" thing to do it by design. Just imagine how the "SAHM" would feel if the spouse said he would withdraw all his/her contribution to the family for a month - just for the heck of it, or to help her get a clue.

« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 08:36:25 AM by ctuser1 »

partgypsy

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2019, 08:27:31 AM »
I think the other thing is that, most of his close friends are childless, either by choice or marrying late and kids have not happened yet, so most people he is close with are 2 income couple. People he works with are different, with more SAHP type  take care of the kids. But since I foolishly take on most of the childcare/coordination, I don't think he really ever appreciate how much work that entails, and that "hiring it out" attitude it really hard to change.

Well, this you can fix pretty easily at least. Leave.

Just for a week. But leave. Decamp. Turn off the phone, turn off social media, etc. Off the grid. Let him deal with kids and house and everything, on his own, for a full week. And don't do special prep for him before you go - let him deal with feeding the kids, and the regular laundry and cleaning, etc. Even better if he has to navigate a doctor's office with the kids. Because a good dose of reality is going to do more to change his attitude and respect for you than anything else.
This is actually a pretty good idea. But knowing how my office is, you might want to give him some notice ahead of time, like 1 or 2 weeks for him to reschedule things at the office.

I recommend it because it works. An acquaintance is a SAHM and the husband was being a giant dickhead about her never doing anything, etc. It was beyond obnoxious to witness, much less live with. So she visited her family. In another country. For a month. And I think she gave him about 3 days notice. When she came back (after ignoring a lot of desperate phone calls and emails - she technically had the ability to check them, but chose not to bother), he had done a complete 180. I think she insisted on couples therapy for a while as well. Last I heard, they're still married and their marriage was much healthier.

lol!

Metalcat

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2019, 08:30:05 AM »
I recommend it because it works. An acquaintance is a SAHM and the husband was being a giant dickhead about her never doing anything, etc. It was beyond obnoxious to witness, much less live with. So she visited her family. In another country. For a month. And I think she gave him about 3 days notice. When she came back (after ignoring a lot of desperate phone calls and emails - she technically had the ability to check them, but chose not to bother), he had done a complete 180. I think she insisted on couples therapy for a while as well. Last I heard, they're still married and their marriage was much healthier.

In practical terms it is probably quite effective!

But I wonder if this is the "correct" or "ethical" thing to do.

Just imagine how the "SAHM" would feel if the spouse said he would withdraw all his/her contribution to the family for a month.

It's definitely an extreme measure that should only be used when respectful communication fails and the breadwinner's disrespectful behaviour is already putting the marriage at risk of failure.

If a stay at home spouse did this before attempting mutually respectful dialogue, then yeah, I would assume that that person actually just wants out of the marriage and is trying to catalyze a breakdown, not a resolution of the relationship.

BabyShark

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2019, 08:32:12 AM »
There was definitely a TV movie about this, "Mom's on Strike!"

EscapedApe

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #38 on: October 17, 2019, 09:06:23 AM »
It's like I am this educated, able bodied person at the "prime years" of career. How could I just throw all this away and be the "lazy one doing nothing" to contribute to society? He has always commented in private, that someone's spouse is "lazy" and "throwing away a good education" if they don't work.

Who says you won't be working?

You can take that sabbatical to think about what your real purpose in life is. What your destiny is. What you were placed upon this Earth to contribute.

You cannot discover that while you are chained up with the other white collars.

ctuser1

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #39 on: October 17, 2019, 09:17:54 AM »
It's definitely an extreme measure that should only be used when respectful communication fails and the breadwinner's disrespectful behaviour is already putting the marriage at risk of failure.

If a stay at home spouse did this before attempting mutually respectful dialogue, then yeah, I would assume that that person actually just wants out of the marriage and is trying to catalyze a breakdown, not a resolution of the relationship.

Don't do unto others....

I'm no religious nut. But I don't like doing what I don't like done to me.

I'm trying to imagine a situation where I am a SAH-spouse and my spouse withdraws all his contribution to the family for 1 month. I just don't see a remotely acceptable scenario where the marriage survives from there!! If so, a divorce paper seems a lot more effective and clean to me.

Instead of doing it in a "I need to teach you a lesson" way - why not start working towards some "joint" goals that the spouse supports and that makes the SAH-spouse just unavailable for some time, even days or weeks perhaps? In my case, I faced this situation on and off many times - sometimes for extended periods - when my wife started her college, then work etc, always with complete and enthusiastic support from me!!

MomOntheGo

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #40 on: October 17, 2019, 09:18:22 AM »
This thread is still alive! LOL

I can't even turn my brain off to think about all this the since I started it. And I sometime check back in to re-read the pearls of wisdom :)

Well, leave the kids with DH won't work, he will just call in grandma! (happened before during an emergency), unless we do it by design, but I won't go there just yet.

I think he does understand me as a person and my contribution and he is a good person, not exactly a dickhead. But we are both so stressed out, and being pushed around by life (work, kids, chores) we are lost to some extent.

I think I will talk with him about just 3 things:
1. We have lost touch with ourselves and each other, now let's get back on track
2. Instead of being pushed around by life and silently compromise, I want to live purposely, find out who I want to be, not just a mother or wife, certainly not my profession (of course family is always important). Because at some point everybody stop working (unless die under the office deck, that would be sad), and kids leave too. Now we are very fortunate to have escaped the fate of working just to survive, I want to find my own north star, at peace and at ease with myself in my core, in the pursuit of happiness (sorry if I sound I like a fortune cookie). We have been too hard on ourselves, and running around blindly.
3. Treat each other with respect, as equals. Not a monthly burst of anger with pent-up frustration. He is not a 17 year old who as long as getting straight A and heading to Ivy league other things will be taken care of by mommy. He is a capable grownup. I don't need his help, I need him to be my partner, and does his share.

Let's see how this goes, I will have to make compromise with my family and myself, but I want to be happy, there is no stopping me now.

StarBright

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #41 on: October 17, 2019, 09:19:40 AM »

Quite frankly, I need more soul searching on what I really want and how to get there. But thank you all for getting me thinking, and to be honest with myself. Perhaps the OMY thing kicked in already (school district and college is a form of cushion), or perhaps I don't really have a real vision for ER life, but in the frenzy of kids + work, it's the easy way out. I certainly have more homework to do myself, otherwise it's not fair or prudent. Thank you all again!

I wanted to circle back to your soul searching because I think I'm on a similar path as you, but a year or two farther down the road. My husband and I have not come to a real agreement, or even a number for me to stop working and he loves his job so he has no plans to stop. I have a "cushy" , flexible, though stressful job that pays well and everyone things I'd be nuts to walk away from the money and flexibility, despite the stress.

Two years after starting to really commit to the idea leaving the workforce early, I still couldn't tell you exactly what I want. The only thing I know I want is to stop feeling so stressed all the time: Job, kids, dog, husband,  etc. - everything seems to add to stress.

 BUT - I am coming to realize that at this stage of life, it might just be what it is. I have no time to think about my long term goals because we're just so darn busy.

So every now and then I check in with myself and see if I have some internal feelings about my goals. I have actually found there are LOTS of things I want, but nothing is jumping out as doable yet. Maybe as life things calm down a path will begin to make itself clear.

I have been working really hard to communicate with my husband, and sometimes that communication is just me saying that I feel stuck and I don't like it. We certainly aren't perfect and I spend more time thinking about communicating than I'd like, but I'm much less upset than I was a couple of years ago. It feels like watching paint drying, but if I take a step back I can see that our relationship is in a better place than it was. This gives me hope that we'll get on the same page about FIRE at some point.

In the meantime we are saving between 30-40% of our income and having that money will make everything that much easier when we do get on the same page!

SO- long story short - this can be a really long process and please do not beat yourself up if your feelings are unclear even to you! When our lives are so full it can be hard to make/find/see those long term paths.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 09:22:26 AM by StarBright »

ctuser1

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #42 on: October 17, 2019, 09:25:43 AM »
Let's see how this goes, I will have to make compromise with my family and myself, ...

Please make sure you are not silent when you make the compromises and that your hubby is aware of them. I am a man and, from personal experience, I can almost guarantee you your hubby simply can't see many things that you may consider "obvious" and "in his face"!

As a working mother, most likely (with, like, 99.99% certainty) you are contributing way more effort towards the family welfare than he is! There is no reason you should have to be the one always compromising, and that too silently!!

MomOntheGo

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #43 on: October 17, 2019, 09:42:16 AM »
Thank you bright star, I will take it slow be kind to my self. As Malkynn conveyed earlier too, self-discovery is a process, not a sprint. Our kids are still very young, and I know it will get better when they are more independent. And I wish you well in your journey as well!

Ctuser 1, I actually draw up that "union contract" of all the things going around, not press his face on it to sign or to shame him, but to really, really show him it's a shit load of work, not all outsource-able, and it all crammed together, it more than the execution, it's also the mental effort to plan coordinate and re-plan. He is manager, he will get that.


Sibley

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #44 on: October 17, 2019, 01:04:09 PM »
It's definitely an extreme measure that should only be used when respectful communication fails and the breadwinner's disrespectful behaviour is already putting the marriage at risk of failure.

If a stay at home spouse did this before attempting mutually respectful dialogue, then yeah, I would assume that that person actually just wants out of the marriage and is trying to catalyze a breakdown, not a resolution of the relationship.

Don't do unto others....

I'm no religious nut. But I don't like doing what I don't like done to me.

I'm trying to imagine a situation where I am a SAH-spouse and my spouse withdraws all his contribution to the family for 1 month. I just don't see a remotely acceptable scenario where the marriage survives from there!! If so, a divorce paper seems a lot more effective and clean to me.

Instead of doing it in a "I need to teach you a lesson" way - why not start working towards some "joint" goals that the spouse supports and that makes the SAH-spouse just unavailable for some time, even days or weeks perhaps? In my case, I faced this situation on and off many times - sometimes for extended periods - when my wife started her college, then work etc, always with complete and enthusiastic support from me!!

I can understand that. But if someone is being repeatedly, systematically being disparaged and disrespected by their spouse because they're "not working" while caring for home and child(ren), that changes the situation. I assume you're not doing that, thus this sort of action would be uncalled for.

ctuser1

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #45 on: October 17, 2019, 01:15:35 PM »
if someone is being repeatedly, systematically being disparaged and disrespected by their spouse because they're "not working" while caring for home and child(ren)

Assuming that hypothetical someone is not financially independent or have otherwise earned financial freedom such that she/he is not dependent on that said spouse:
 why is that hypothetical someone "not working" if their spouse does not agree to their "not working" as evidenced by the act of "being repeatedly, systematically being disparaged and disrespected"?

If I need someone to foot my bills - don't I need his/her agreement?


Metalcat

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #46 on: October 17, 2019, 01:18:13 PM »
if someone is being repeatedly, systematically being disparaged and disrespected by their spouse because they're "not working" while caring for home and child(ren)

Assuming that hypothetical someone is not financially independent or have otherwise earned financial freedom such that she/he is not dependent on that said spouse:
 why is that hypothetical someone "not working" if their spouse does not agree to their "not working" as evidenced by the act of "being repeatedly, systematically being disparaged and disrespected"?

If I need someone to foot my bills - don't I need his/her agreement?

Oh good grief.

I know you have expressed A LOT of opinions on this subject, but this is very much sounding like women who choose to stay home are then consenting to be disrespected and disparaged by doing so.


ctuser1

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #47 on: October 17, 2019, 01:45:56 PM »
Oh good grief.

I know you have expressed A LOT of opinions on this subject, but this is very much sounding like women who choose to stay home are then consenting to be disrespected and disparaged by doing so.

I chose to just present just one side of the argument in response to a specific post.

It definitely is incorrect to constantly "disparage and disrespect" someone for choosing to stay home.
It is also incorrect to "stay home" when you can't do so with your own money and your partner does not agree to foot your bills.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

cloudsail

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #48 on: October 17, 2019, 02:15:23 PM »
Sooo........ how come the partner doesn't have to obtain agreement from the one staying home who has to do their laundry, cook their food, clean their house, watch their kids, etc....? After all, their ability to earn income is directly tied to these contributions by their stay at home spouse.

ambimammular

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Re: DH and I have different ideas after achieving FI, feeling a little guilty
« Reply #49 on: October 17, 2019, 02:29:07 PM »
I hadn't heard the discussion go this direction, but have you two spoken with a financial advisor, yet?

An ousider perspective on how much you need for retirement could help you two get on the same page. My DH can offer me the same advice over and over, but not until I hear it from someone else will I think, "that's a great idea!" And if you're FIRE number is way too low, or his is crazy high, that advisor could talk some sense into you both.

I'd look for someone holistic that can get you and your spouse to find some common goals. Talking about dreams that you hold together might get him thinking about something besides work.