Author Topic: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?  (Read 36904 times)

vand

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Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« on: September 24, 2023, 03:24:56 AM »
The asinine idea that the world has too many people to sustain - which tends to pervade FI circles where people are aware of the about the financial impact of raising a family - needs to be challenged, called out, and destroyed.... because the logical extension of this ideology is terrible for everyone.

It is unarguable that in the last 200 years the economic progress has been enabled by an incredible demographic tailwind. It is not coincidental that the period of greatest progress in human history coincided with the period of rapid population expansion. 

But somewhere along the way, moreso in recent years, there is a growing movement suggesting we are overpopulated, and fewer people will help "save the planet." 

The great demographic tailwind - especially since WWI (the boomers) - is now turning around into a headwind. It will bring huge challenges... the countries that are at the vanguard of this change - Japan (especially), Italy, South Korea, China.... are the ones to watch.  Japan's population already peaked a decade ago and is now in declining by 0.5% a year, and it is accelerating.  From a 125m peak in 2009, the projections show they will fall to 100m by 2050 and maybe around 75m by 2100...

Socially, this has profound implications, especially for smaller communities - people don't want to hang around small villages and town where the population is slowly aging and shrinking, so any young folk head to the major cities, so perversely there is still overcrowding in cities while satellite communities suffer the most.  If you watch any YT videos of "Japan population decline" you'll see how sad this is, to see once vibrant communities deserted and with no young people.

Financially it places a huge strain on public finances, as the base of workers is not large enough to support the retirees. The more governments squeeze them in order to try to keep promises made to older generation, the less they can afford to have and raise families of their own, ensuring that each generation is smaller than the last...

The likes of Elon Musk and Jordan Peterson have commented on these demographic trends and the challenges they will present.

/ Lots to unpack here... discuss...


MayDay

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2023, 05:14:30 AM »
I live in a large Midwestern city (Mpls) and we a e surrounded by shrinking rural communities. My dad does workforce development stuff and his data is just unreal when you get into it. The only communities having success are doing it via immigration (which much of the Midwest is very politically opposed to).   The rural areas are dying fast. They lose hospital services and then they die faster still.

As a parent of two kids (so just barely replacing ourselves 😂) I know how hard and financially draining it is.... and the government benefits I would need to have more kids are much larger than the ones we actually get. And then I look at my H and i's siblings and between all 3 there is one kid, so way way way under replacement rate. And the two with no kids it's purely a lifestyle decision. Not financial at all. I don't think there would be enough financial incentive in the world to convince them otherwise.

Then I think about my own kids and I wouldn't encourage my daughter to have kids (I wouldn't necessarily discourage her but I wouldn't encourage her). Women work in paid jobs and still carry a disproportionate load at home and it widens with kids. It frankly sucks. It's not fun. When you have a generation of kids raised by moms who say fuck this shit, you probably don't end up with a baby boom lol.

In conclusion life sucks and we are all going to die and yay immigration.

Cranky

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2023, 10:54:43 AM »
Both.

In the long run, a smaller population is more sustainable.

In the short run, a declining population is pretty hard economically. We spent 26 years in Mahoning County Ohio which has lost 50% of its population. It is very, very difficult to maintain your infrastructure with a declining population.

I don’t know what economic prosperity with a declining population looks like, but I think it will take a whole lot of planning.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2023, 04:51:13 PM by Cranky »

MarcherLady

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2023, 11:11:20 AM »
The asinine idea that the world has too many people to sustain - which tends to pervade FI circles where people are aware of the about the financial impact of raising a family - needs to be challenged, called out, and destroyed.... because the logical extension of this ideology is terrible for everyone.

Hmm I disagree.

Just because the short term impacts of a gradual reduction in population growth are unattractive to you doesn't mean they will be worse than the uncontrolled population crash that will likely be the consequence of exceeding the Earth's carrying capacity.

It is unarguable that in the last 200 years the economic progress has been enabled by an incredible demographic tailwind. It is not coincidental that the period of greatest progress in human history coincided with the period of rapid population expansion. 

Population growth was caused by progress in the form of industrialisation, not vice versa.

MrGreen

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2023, 11:16:03 AM »
Nothing survives a neverending expansion. Full stop.

vand

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2023, 12:14:59 PM »
Nothing survives a neverending expansion. Full stop.

Did you know that the Universe itself is ever-expanding? All points are moving further away from all other points... and, well, I don't see the Universe ending any time soon.

vand

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2023, 12:23:36 PM »
Both.

In the long run, a smaller population is more sustainable.

In the short run, a declining population is pretty hard economically. We spent 26 years in Mahoning County Ohio which as lost 50% of its population. It is very, very difficult to maintain your infrastructure with a defining population.

I don’t know what economic prosperity with a defining population looks like, but I think it will take a whole lot of planning.

Somewhere like Detroit springs to mind (not that I've ever been there).. It's been shrinking since the 1950s, and I struggle to see the benefits... I think it'd be fair to say that it has seen better days?

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2023, 12:24:03 PM »
I don’t know what economic prosperity with a defining population looks like, but I think it will take a whole lot of planning.

That is what I'm interested in learning about. Is it really that different than what we (MMMs) do today? Education, cross training or specialization?

Count me as one of the people who thinks the environment might be near its limits in dealing with ~335M Americans and by extension 8B people worldwide.

We might ultimately long term be better off with 2/3 or 1/2 that many people here. More sustainable as Cranky noted.

Technology has made all of us more productive. What if it outright replaces most of us (ChatGPT type AI, humanoid robots, self-driving delivery vehicles) at some point? How does capitalism react to that? Some of humanity will move on to different jobs, some of humanity will look at the leisure class and say - I want that too. Sort of like DW and I look at our friends who seemingly work from home for 4 hours a day and still get paid for a 40 hour week.

I'm not confident that technology can deliver us from the environmental dangers of capitalism. Lowest cost waste disposal. Consumption = prosperity. A no fix churn economy where everything gets thrown out after a short number of years and replaced.

Housing would be more affordable. More renovation work and less new construction. And nothing says everyone needs to flee to the big metro areas. My town of 30K was quite functional with 15K too when I was a kid. It was different but a comfortable place to be. See smaller villages of UK for examples.

I've heard people say for years that they left this town for more opportunities but honestly there are thousands of well paid professionals that have made great lives here. The metro area nearest us might pay more but it costs more to function there too.

wenchsenior

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2023, 12:36:21 PM »
The idea that population of any living thing can continue to grow indefinitely on a resource limited planet is against physical laws.

The idea that a human population in particular is or is not overpopulated depends entirely on what particular metrics of quality of life and effects we are looking at. Personally, I view the planet as vastly overpopulated by humans under current conditions b/c the negative effects on the planet's ecosystems, climates, and (most importantly) most other life forms.  Other people would view current conditions as 'not currently overpopulated' b/c they are happy with standards of living, and don't really give a shit about the impact on  other species/ecosystems. That's a value judgement,  not an objective one. However, the latter group might start revising their idea of acceptable levels of human impact if e.g., climate change disrupts ecosystems enough to truly destabilize the standards of living that they currently like. 

Then there's the question of raw numbers vs impact. E.g., if we packed into very dense cities, left huge swaths of the world more undisturbed, and stopped pouring carbon (or other pollutants, pick your type) into the atmosphere/ecosystems, it's possible the planet could support considerably more people than it currently does, with minimal additional impacts on other species and still maintaining reasonable quality of life. In that sense, then, we could have a lot more people but still not be overpopulated.

And there's the question of long term vs short term 'overpopulation'. In the short term, efforts to quickly reduce human population in the society and economy as currently structured are going to have notable consequences, many of them negative. If we had a different economic set up, the consequences of population reduction might be minimal or reduced. In the long term, the trajectory we are on is clearly unsustainable from a perspective of planetary OR human population stability, without radical changes in how we live, structure our values and society, and the kinds of tech we deploy.

And the types of changes that are required to make long-term sustainability happen are going to strike people as being on a huge range of acceptability, both experientially and morally. 

In raw numbers, we can probably support more people in the short term; and in moral terms, radical reduction of human population is probably undesirable.  However, moving just a couple generations out, those two things start to change pretty notably.  ETA: At least, with the tech we currently have/economies we currently have.

« Last Edit: September 24, 2023, 12:39:03 PM by wenchsenior »

vand

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2023, 12:45:35 PM »

Population growth was caused by progress in the form of industrialisation, not vice versa.

Yes, I agree, it was enabled by industrialisation that made food plentiful and advances in our understanding of microbiology that dramatically cut infant mortality.

But, it still required the will of individuals to reproduce in numbers - nobody held a gun to anyone's head and told to them to make babies - for populations and economies to grow and living standards to advance as far as they did. 

I can't prove this, of course, but gut feeling is that if people are optimistic about the future and strongly believe that that tomorrow will be more prosperous than today they are more willing to reproduce and pass that opportunity onto the next generation.


vand

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2023, 12:53:31 PM »
The idea that population of any living thing can continue to grow indefinitely on a resource limited planet is against physical laws.

The idea that a human population in particular is or is not overpopulated depends entirely on what particular metrics of quality of life and effects we are looking at. Personally, I view the planet as vastly overpopulated by humans under current conditions b/c the negative effects on the planet's ecosystems, climates, and (most importantly) most other life forms.  Other people would view current conditions as 'not currently overpopulated' b/c they are happy with standards of living, and don't really give a shit about the impact on  other species/ecosystems. That's a value judgement,  not an objective one. However, the latter group might start revising their idea of acceptable levels of human impact if e.g., climate change disrupts ecosystems enough to truly destabilize the standards of living that they currently like. 

Then there's the question of raw numbers vs impact. E.g., if we packed into very dense cities, left huge swaths of the world more undisturbed, and stopped pouring carbon (or other pollutants, pick your type) into the atmosphere/ecosystems, it's possible the planet could support considerably more people than it currently does, with minimal additional impacts on other species and still maintaining reasonable quality of life. In that sense, then, we could have a lot more people but still not be overpopulated.

And there's the question of long term vs short term 'overpopulation'. In the short term, efforts to quickly reduce human population in the society and economy as currently structured are going to have notable consequences, many of them negative. If we had a different economic set up, the consequences of population reduction might be minimal or reduced. In the long term, the trajectory we are on is clearly unsustainable from a perspective of planetary OR human population stability, without radical changes in how we live, structure our values and society, and the kinds of tech we deploy.

And the types of changes that are required to make long-term sustainability happen are going to strike people as being on a huge range of acceptability, both experientially and morally. 

In raw numbers, we can probably support more people in the short term; and in moral terms, radical reduction of human population is probably undesirable.  However, moving just a couple generations out, those two things start to change pretty notably.  ETA: At least, with the tech we currently have/economies we currently have.

The mindset of "there are limited natural resources on Earch" is current thinking... but do you not ever expect Humans to become a space-faring race? 

It would be silly to think that we can't colonize Mars and beyond, build cities in Space, and eventually be able to use resources from beyond our planet.

MrGreen

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2023, 01:35:16 PM »
Nothing survives a neverending expansion. Full stop.

Did you know that the Universe itself is ever-expanding? All points are moving further away from all other points... and, well, I don't see the Universe ending any time soon.
Not a relevant data point. We only know of one universe that is currently in the middle of the only expansion we're aware of.

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2023, 01:57:09 PM »

Population growth was caused by progress in the form of industrialisation, not vice versa.

Yes, I agree, it was enabled by industrialisation that made food plentiful and advances in our understanding of microbiology that dramatically cut infant mortality.

But, it still required the will of individuals to reproduce in numbers - nobody held a gun to anyone's head and told to them to make babies - for populations and economies to grow and living standards to advance as far as they did. 

I can't prove this, of course, but gut feeling is that if people are optimistic about the future and strongly believe that that tomorrow will be more prosperous than today they are more willing to reproduce and pass that opportunity onto the next generation.

Your view is heavily male-centric and thus incomplete. Infant mortality decreased before the availability of birth control, and definitely before the social acceptance of birth control. Plus, abortion wasn't acceptable/available either. Meaning, lots of babies that women may or may not have actually wanted. And yes, there are situations where women were in physical danger if they didn't have babies. Just like there were (and are) women who were in danger because they had babies.

SunnyDays

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2023, 02:12:36 PM »
There is global population and then there is local population.  You can’t equate the two.  One can be too large while the other is too small.

In my opinion the earth is overpopulated if people continue to (want to) live North American style lives of consumption.  It’s the amount of resources a population demands and not the size of the population that decimates the earth.  If we could go back to pre-industrial life styles, there would be a higher limit on the people the planet can support.  However, that time frame came with it’s own challenges, like poorer medical care, that in itself reduced the population more drastically then today.

Also, if Japan, for example promoted immigration, they could solve in imbalance in ages quite quickly.  China’s One Child policy with forced abortions artificially contributed to a skewed sex and age range.  Italy’s demographics may change with the influx of migrants, although most of them seem intent on reaching Northern Europe.  And globally, more highly educated women tend to have fewer children.

There are a lot of factors that contribute, but in short, the earth cannot sustain increasing demand for it’s resources, regardless of humanity’s numbers.

wenchsenior

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2023, 02:18:11 PM »
The idea that population of any living thing can continue to grow indefinitely on a resource limited planet is against physical laws.

The idea that a human population in particular is or is not overpopulated depends entirely on what particular metrics of quality of life and effects we are looking at. Personally, I view the planet as vastly overpopulated by humans under current conditions b/c the negative effects on the planet's ecosystems, climates, and (most importantly) most other life forms.  Other people would view current conditions as 'not currently overpopulated' b/c they are happy with standards of living, and don't really give a shit about the impact on  other species/ecosystems. That's a value judgement,  not an objective one. However, the latter group might start revising their idea of acceptable levels of human impact if e.g., climate change disrupts ecosystems enough to truly destabilize the standards of living that they currently like. 

Then there's the question of raw numbers vs impact. E.g., if we packed into very dense cities, left huge swaths of the world more undisturbed, and stopped pouring carbon (or other pollutants, pick your type) into the atmosphere/ecosystems, it's possible the planet could support considerably more people than it currently does, with minimal additional impacts on other species and still maintaining reasonable quality of life. In that sense, then, we could have a lot more people but still not be overpopulated.

And there's the question of long term vs short term 'overpopulation'. In the short term, efforts to quickly reduce human population in the society and economy as currently structured are going to have notable consequences, many of them negative. If we had a different economic set up, the consequences of population reduction might be minimal or reduced. In the long term, the trajectory we are on is clearly unsustainable from a perspective of planetary OR human population stability, without radical changes in how we live, structure our values and society, and the kinds of tech we deploy.

And the types of changes that are required to make long-term sustainability happen are going to strike people as being on a huge range of acceptability, both experientially and morally. 

In raw numbers, we can probably support more people in the short term; and in moral terms, radical reduction of human population is probably undesirable.  However, moving just a couple generations out, those two things start to change pretty notably.  ETA: At least, with the tech we currently have/economies we currently have.

The mindset of "there are limited natural resources on Earch" is current thinking... but do you not ever expect Humans to become a space-faring race? 

It would be silly to think that we can't colonize Mars and beyond, build cities in Space, and eventually be able to use resources from beyond our planet.

Sure, that's why I said that some of these parameters of 'overpopulated vs not' are tech limited. Tech changes over time, so we might well become a space-faring species. Currently, there are pretty notable barriers to space travel and colonization, so I don't factor that into the current equation nor the equation for the next hundred years or so. But it certainly might factor into things for far future generations.

Personally, I find the idea of space colonizing pretty revolting, but that's a personal moral response not an objective one.

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2023, 03:31:03 PM »
From an environmental perspective, there is no way to sustain the kind of lifestyle that we in North America are accustomed to - personal automobiles, cheap food, cheap clothing, large living areas, disposable electronics, etc. with current world population (let alone any growth at all).  So we face a radical reduction of quality of life in order to keep packing more people into the planet, or a necessary reduction of numbers of people on the planet.  Most people prefer the latter when they think about it (although it opens up a host of other potential problems).

Cranky

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2023, 04:56:05 PM »
And it actually doesn’t matter whether we think it’s great or not - industrial societies all have declining birth rates because children become an expense rather than an economic asset. The question is really how we adapt to a declining population.

RetiredAt63

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #17 on: September 24, 2023, 05:00:29 PM »
At least we are not having a population drop because of the bubonic plague or equivalent.  We can see this coming and plan for it.

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2023, 05:02:05 PM »
The wheel always turns, it's just that it is getting faster and it won't be fun at the bottom.

Chris Pascale

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #19 on: September 24, 2023, 06:18:23 PM »
I don't think it's something to worry about. People adapt. Some empty rural communities will become burgeoning spots for growth. In some cases they'll be discovered as rich in some resource that's needed in 150 years; in others it'll be because rich people will want to put a fence around it.

New York City might find itself with less people since they have so many less commuters than they used to. 2 gens from now, NYC might be more of a college and tourist town than anything else. The docks can be expanded upon for its already-busy ports, and this will include even more Coast Guard and Navy in the area.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2023, 06:19:58 PM by Chris Pascale »

partgypsy

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #20 on: September 24, 2023, 08:44:43 PM »
Not to be a debbie downer, but we are by all indications using up earths resources faster then they can be replenished. Put it another way, we can reduce the bad effects by voluntarily slowing  or reducing our resources. We can do that by reducing population, reducing  resource use, or both..if we don't, we are just kicking the can down the road so a future generations(s) will do so, most likely in a much more abrupt and non voluntary process. Some of the best things in life are free; old growth forests, oceans free of plastic and full of fish and biologically diverse. Top soil and abundant fresh water. Free does not mean valueless. We need to value these things in order to conserve them. My daughter is less optimistic. She says if things continue as they are, it will be a "self limiting" problem.
 We need the earth to survive. The earth doesn't need us.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2023/sep/13/earth-well-outside-safe-operating-space-for-humanity-scientists-find

MrGreen

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #21 on: September 24, 2023, 09:44:07 PM »
It would be silly to think that we can't colonize Mars and beyond, build cities in Space, and eventually be able to use resources from beyond our planet.
It seems pretty silly to me to look at our track record and think we're getting off this rock. There's no need to either. If we can't stop behaviors that will lead to the extinction of our species on the planet we're already on, going somewhere else isn't going to change that.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2023, 10:01:51 PM by Mr. Green »

Ron Scott

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2023, 03:39:17 AM »
Financially it places a huge strain on public finances, as the base of workers is not large enough to support the retirees. The more governments squeeze them in order to try to keep promises made to older generation, the less they can afford to have and raise families of their own, ensuring that each generation is smaller than the last...

This argument makes no sense, because it is conflated with inflation and misunderstands the dynamics.

The government doesn’t need tax dollars from young people to pay pensions, Social Security, Medicare costs, etc. for older people. It has the power to create money and give it to anyone it wants to.

The problem with creating money like this is typically associated with inflation. It appears to arbitrarily increase the money supply and results in too many dollars chasing too few products, driving up the cost of the products.

Here is where your argument collapses: The inflation problem always relies on “too few products“. You assume “fewer workers means fewer products”. But fewer products is not an inevitable result of fewer workers.

It seems perfectly plausible to assume that impressive increases in worker productivity, combined with advances in robotics and artificial intelligence, will yield significant capacity to create more products (and services too) without adding more workers.

Your argument assumes a fairly constant equation in which X number of workers produce Y number of products, which is simply not the direction advanced countries in the world are headed.

———

So long as productivity is addressed countries can manage population declines. Japan has put in place a very interesting approach to offset its own population decline: it uses the population of its customer countries! So we’ve seen automobile manufacturing moving from Japan (the host country) to the countries where it sells the products, using the productive capacity of its customers’ countries to fund needs at home. Clever, so far.

———

Your explanation also ignores a problem which could be much worse than an inability to support an older generation.

The ability to effectively deal with population declines through increases in productivity, will vary by country. Advanced countries, mostly in the west, will be able to weather the storm. Countries like China are stuck in the middle income trap. A very large portion of their population is uneducated and lacks the skills to significantly increase productivity. Poor countries are in an even worse situation.

So you have to ask yourself: if the rich, western countries are coping well with population decline, and the rest of the world is suffering, how will the suffering countries with large militaries start behaving when they need to shift the political focus of attention at home?



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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2023, 04:41:06 AM »

Population growth was caused by progress in the form of industrialisation, not vice versa.

Yes, I agree, it was enabled by industrialisation that made food plentiful and advances in our understanding of microbiology that dramatically cut infant mortality.

But, it still required the will of individuals to reproduce in numbers - nobody held a gun to anyone's head and told to them to make babies - for populations and economies to grow and living standards to advance as far as they did. 

I can't prove this, of course, but gut feeling is that if people are optimistic about the future and strongly believe that that tomorrow will be more prosperous than today they are more willing to reproduce and pass that opportunity onto the next generation.

But during the period you are talking about reproducing was not really something most people chose to do or not do, it was just the consequence of sex. Married women had babies until they were too unhealthy to do so. If the mothers and babies were well nourished the population increased fast, if they were badly nourished or otherwise unhealthy more died and population increase was slow. The only role optimism played was when someone said, 'oh shit, I'm pregnant again, hope we can afford to feed this one.'

RetiredAt63

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2023, 07:08:08 AM »

Population growth was caused by progress in the form of industrialisation, not vice versa.

Yes, I agree, it was enabled by industrialisation that made food plentiful and advances in our understanding of microbiology that dramatically cut infant mortality.

But, it still required the will of individuals to reproduce in numbers - nobody held a gun to anyone's head and told to them to make babies - for populations and economies to grow and living standards to advance as far as they did. 

I can't prove this, of course, but gut feeling is that if people are optimistic about the future and strongly believe that that tomorrow will be more prosperous than today they are more willing to reproduce and pass that opportunity onto the next generation.

But during the period you are talking about reproducing was not really something most people chose to do or not do, it was just the consequence of sex. Married women had babies until they were too unhealthy to do so. If the mothers and babies were well nourished the population increased fast, if they were badly nourished or otherwise unhealthy more died and population increase was slow. The only role optimism played was when someone said, 'oh shit, I'm pregnant again, hope we can afford to feed this one.'

Plus societies had social norms to limit growth - young men and women who had little access to family resources (a farm or a trade) because of birth position went in monasteries and nunneries.  Even in wealthy families - the first son inherited, the second son went into the military, the third son went into the church.  People didn't marry young (young marriage is for pioneer communities), they got married when he had a trade or farm and she had a dowry and savings.  I totally forget where I read it, but young women not of the wealthy classes didn't marry until their mid to late 20s, and men until often their thirties (or forties).

And of course the odd epidemic reduced family size, as did the every so often famine.  Rh incompatibility had an effect. 

Basically we have gone from having lots of babies but with few making it to adulthood, to having lots of babies and most making it to adulthood, to having just a few babies almost all of whom make it to adulthood. Our social norms haven't fully adjusted to the change in infant/child mortality.

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2023, 08:15:59 AM »
I think about the youngest son thing. On my Dad's side one of the ancestors is a youngest son who literally relocated to a different part of his country and renamed himself (starting our side of the family line). On my mom's side there is a similar story of my great grandfather being the younger son, taking whatever family help he had to relocate to the US from Poland. In his case to avoid being inducted into the czarist army and most likely dying but again, the youngest had to " make their own fortune" or they were out of luck (reproductively speaking).

Metalcat

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2023, 08:27:39 AM »

Population growth was caused by progress in the form of industrialisation, not vice versa.

Yes, I agree, it was enabled by industrialisation that made food plentiful and advances in our understanding of microbiology that dramatically cut infant mortality.

But, it still required the will of individuals to reproduce in numbers - nobody held a gun to anyone's head and told to them to make babies - for populations and economies to grow and living standards to advance as far as they did. 

I can't prove this, of course, but gut feeling is that if people are optimistic about the future and strongly believe that that tomorrow will be more prosperous than today they are more willing to reproduce and pass that opportunity onto the next generation.

But during the period you are talking about reproducing was not really something most people chose to do or not do, it was just the consequence of sex. Married women had babies until they were too unhealthy to do so. If the mothers and babies were well nourished the population increased fast, if they were badly nourished or otherwise unhealthy more died and population increase was slow. The only role optimism played was when someone said, 'oh shit, I'm pregnant again, hope we can afford to feed this one.'

Plus societies had social norms to limit growth - young men and women who had little access to family resources (a farm or a trade) because of birth position went in monasteries and nunneries.  Even in wealthy families - the first son inherited, the second son went into the military, the third son went into the church.  People didn't marry young (young marriage is for pioneer communities), they got married when he had a trade or farm and she had a dowry and savings.  I totally forget where I read it, but young women not of the wealthy classes didn't marry until their mid to late 20s, and men until often their thirties (or forties).

And of course the odd epidemic reduced family size, as did the every so often famine.  Rh incompatibility had an effect. 

Basically we have gone from having lots of babies but with few making it to adulthood, to having lots of babies and most making it to adulthood, to having just a few babies almost all of whom make it to adulthood. Our social norms haven't fully adjusted to the change in infant/child mortality.

It also depends on the culture.

You're right, in British culture, for example, many working class woman didn't get married until later because they weren't allowed to work many jobs if married, so unless they could find a spouse who could support them leaving the workforce, they would just stay single.

Men who worked service on estates also couldn't marry unless they were willing to leave their jobs because they lived on the estates and couldn't have dependents living with them in servant's quarters.

I'm sure they impregnated many women, but they weren't often getting married young and having a ton of kids because of "optimism."

Economic optimism is more of a product of class mobility (perceived or mythical) and is a fairly recent concept in most modern societies, so the optimism from that is a very, very brief anthropological phenomenon.

It tracks though with a particularly American bias to perceive the post WWII era of the 50s as some "norm" that the world is constantly deviating from.

But even then, when I've spoken to people who had kids in the 50s, it wasn't out of a sense of optimism. The most common reason for wanting multiple children was out of worry about child death.

My grandmother, who NEVER would have had children had she been born later, had 4 daughters and was, well, a terrible parent, but she was horrified when my mother and aunt only had one child each and would frequently say, I front of my cousin and I when we were young "but what if she dies!???"

I've heard this from many mothers of that era. It was a very normal thing for them to worry about because their mothers instilled this in them.

Remember who that generation was raised by. I think it's pretty reasonable to say that the parents of that era weren't as "optimistic" as the boomer children they produced who retroactively view that era with rather intense rose-coloured glasses.

However, they're the very generation that started having less kids because they started having more freedom and choice.  They're also the first generation to really start romanticizing having children because it *was* a choice.

When having kids isn't much of a choice, it's not romanticized as much. The many senior ladies I've spoken to have always been rather pragmatic and generally negative about the experience of motherhood. It has generally been viewed by folks I've spoken to who gave birth before 1960 as more of a chore than a calling. Especially when they talk about having daughters.

In my experience, it's more their children who equate having children with life purpose and meaning.

It's the same way marriage has only become a romantic thing amplified to incredible meaning and purpose since people started having the option to choose it.

Marriage actually had to be actively branded and marketed by the government as a romantic thing, and this campaign has its roots in white supremacy.

White married couples were so miserable, hated each other so much, and were so disgusted by one another that the government felt an urgent need to step in and convince white folks that marriage wasn't the worst thing in the world to protect the institution from being taken over by all the black folks who were starting to get married.

No joke, this is where douching comes from, because men were so grossed out by women after the puritanical nonsense of the Victorian era pitted the genders so firmly against one another. So a major effort was made to get women to be less gross and more palatable to the men who hated them and kept beating them and killing them. Which was becoming a major problem.

Much of the 50s notion of marriage, gender roles, and procreation in America comes from white supremacy/eugenics propaganda from earlier that century.

Historically marriage and having kids has never been about hope and optimism, it's been about obligation and desperation.

Paradoxically, it's the option to choose marriage and children that has elevated it to this great, meaningful, aspirational thing. But that has also lead to their decline.


wenchsenior

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2023, 09:19:27 AM »
Pertaining to Metalcat's comment, it never fails to astonish me how functionally ONE SINGLE DECADE in modern American history has imprinted itself so completely on the nation's collective beliefs that we continue to obsess over it and view it as a default norm out of centuries of options to choose from, even though it didn't bear much resemblance to any other time period in our history.

roomtempmayo

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2023, 09:42:15 AM »
As a parent of two kids (so just barely replacing ourselves 😂) I know how hard and financially draining it is.... and the government benefits I would need to have more kids are much larger than the ones we actually get.

Same, but with one kiddo.

If society needs us to have more kids, then the public can pay.  Let's start with:

- Universal public healthcare
- Publicly provided full time daycare and/or full salary stipends to stay-at-home parents
- High quality elementary and high school for every student, everywhere
- Publicly provided before and after school care, as well as summer care
- Publicly provided higher education, as far as they want to go

But of course none of this will ever happen.

The crisis of birth rates is only urgent when parents internalize most of the costs.

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2023, 10:01:25 AM »
As a parent of two kids (so just barely replacing ourselves ) I know how hard and financially draining it is.... and the government benefits I would need to have more kids are much larger than the ones we actually get.

Same, but with one kiddo.

If society needs us to have more kids, then the public can pay.  Let's start with:

- Universal public healthcare
- Publicly provided full time daycare and/or full salary stipends to stay-at-home parents
- High quality elementary and high school for every student, everywhere
- Publicly provided before and after school care, as well as summer care
- Publicly provided higher education, as far as they want to go

But of course none of this will ever happen.

The crisis of birth rates is only urgent when parents internalize most of the costs.

If we had all these things we could also get away with a lower birthrate because a higher proportion of children would be alive, physically able to work, literate, and out of prison by the time they reach young adulthoood.

Getting rid of the guns might help too ;)

Sibley

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2023, 10:21:46 AM »
At least we are not having a population drop because of the bubonic plague or equivalent.  We can see this coming and plan for it.

We could, but we collectively won't. And aren't.

China's demographic problem, or at least the timing of it, is almost entirely of its own making via the one child policy. Japan's problem is in large part a function of their culture/society and related government actions, and was foreseeable. Even now, I haven't heard that Japan is doing anything to actually address the root causes. Russia is making their problem worse by a war that they started for ego reasons.

As for plague, COVID-19 wasn't a huge killer (no it wasn't, the death rate simply wasn't high enough). However, the next disease may be different. We've collectively so thoroughly destroyed any chance we'll have of public participation in not killing ourselves that it doesn't matter what the actual death rate is, it will spread sufficiently to hit close to the max death toll. We get something with a 20% death rate and we might actually kill off 20% of the population.

Metalcat

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2023, 10:40:29 AM »
As a parent of two kids (so just barely replacing ourselves 😂) I know how hard and financially draining it is.... and the government benefits I would need to have more kids are much larger than the ones we actually get.

Same, but with one kiddo.

If society needs us to have more kids, then the public can pay.  Let's start with:

- Universal public healthcare
- Publicly provided full time daycare and/or full salary stipends to stay-at-home parents
- High quality elementary and high school for every student, everywhere
- Publicly provided before and after school care, as well as summer care
- Publicly provided higher education, as far as they want to go

But of course none of this will ever happen.

The crisis of birth rates is only urgent when parents internalize most of the costs.

To be fair, a lot of countries have these things and have falling birth rates. Let's not be US-centric in our causal thinking.

roomtempmayo

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2023, 11:01:41 AM »
As a parent of two kids (so just barely replacing ourselves 😂) I know how hard and financially draining it is.... and the government benefits I would need to have more kids are much larger than the ones we actually get.

Same, but with one kiddo.

If society needs us to have more kids, then the public can pay.  Let's start with:

- Universal public healthcare
- Publicly provided full time daycare and/or full salary stipends to stay-at-home parents
- High quality elementary and high school for every student, everywhere
- Publicly provided before and after school care, as well as summer care
- Publicly provided higher education, as far as they want to go

But of course none of this will ever happen.

The crisis of birth rates is only urgent when parents internalize most of the costs.

To be fair, a lot of countries have these things and have falling birth rates. Let's not be US-centric in our causal thinking.

That's a move the American right makes at the slightest suggestion that a welfare state might help.  These are folks who generally believe in American exceptionalism, i.e. that trends in the rest of the world don't apply to the United States because ... America is an exception.

Quick problems with ruling out the welfare state because it doesn't always correlate with positive birthrates:

- The fact that Sweden, Denmark, France, etcetera have strong welfare states and falling birthrates doesn't say anything about whether the welfare state increases the birthrate since there's no control.  It's totally possible that the birthrate in these countries would be far lower without their welfare states.  A hypothetical Sweden with no welfare state and a birthrate of <1 seems at least plausible, and in that case their welfare state is doing wonders.

- Interventions that directly try to raise the birthrate, ala Hungary, tend to be small in proportion to the costs of children and so have small results.  We haven't seen a national experiment where in short order a state takes on the entire financial responsibility of kids from parents.  Just because $1k/year or $5k/year don't move the needle much, doesn't imply that $50 or $75k/year/child wouldn't.  So far the interventions that have been tried have been an entirely different magnitude than the costs parents internalize.

- The decline of birthrates has historically tracked with young children becoming a cost that parents pay in cash.  Addressing that transaction is a logical first place to start.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2023, 11:09:43 AM by roomtempmayo »

Metalcat

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2023, 11:30:47 AM »
Okay, but let's compare more apples to apples and look at Canada vs the US.

Canada actually has a much lower fertility rate than the US, despite having pretty much all of the apical programs mentioned above. It has fertility rates more similar to European countries with similar programs.

Many researchers I've read have pointed to the fact that minority populations in the US, especially Hispanic (often Catholic) tend to have a much higher birth rate, and those are often populations who can least afford to have children.

Now, you could be correct that there is a third factor at play, and that could be that in countries with excellent social supports, there is also generally a very high cost of living and particularly a very high cost of housing.

People in Canada are definitely delaying buying houses, definitely cannot afford larger houses in the areas where 90% of the population live, and with increasing hormonal health issues and obesity rates, are facing much more challenges with biological fertility with these delays.

So it absolutely could be that social programs indirectly make cost of living worse and therefore lower fertility rates.

ETA: let's not forget to factor in mortality rates though, especially infant and mother mortality rates. Kind of important for the bigger picture of population demographics. And also probably the biggest embarrassment the US has to wear on the international stage.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2023, 11:36:40 AM by Metalcat »

FireLane

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2023, 12:07:29 PM »
By U.N. demographic estimates, the world will have 10 billion humans by 2100. That's an all-time high. The global population is forecast to level out after that, but clearly, there's no danger of "running out" of people.

We don't need to persuade more people to reproduce. We just need to make sure that basic needs like food, housing and education, which most of us in the industrialized world already enjoy, are extended to the rest of humanity. It would also help if we lowered barriers to immigration, so that immigrants can go where they're most capable of earning a living.

When you see hand-wringing about population decline, it's often just a disguise for racist anxieties that the wrong people are reproducing (to be clear, I'm not accusing anyone on this board of believing this). For example, white supremacists believe in a conspiracy theory called the "Great Replacement" which claims that politicians are scheming to wipe out the naturally superior Anglo-Saxons and replace them with genetically inferior people from dark-skinned countries.

The other basic fact that everyone should acknowledge is that the economy can't grow forever on a finite planet. Population growth is great for investors like us - more people buying more stuff equals more profits for corporations, so we get more dividends - but the Earth only has so many resources, and we're exploiting them at an unsustainable pace. To use an FI analogy, our withdrawal rate is already too high for the size of our stash.

Eventually, our population and our resource consumption both have to level out. If we don't do it by choice, it will be imposed on us when we slam into natural limits, and that would be a lot worse.

Colonizing Mars or moving civilization into space, at least at our current technological level, is pure fantasy. We don't even have a self-sufficient colony in Antarctica, and Antarctica is a lot more hospitable than Mars. For the moment, Earth is all we've got, so we'd better learn how to live here without wrecking the place.

There are going to be bumps as we shift from a mindset of constant growth to a steady state. But it has to happen eventually, and we're going to have to figure out how to cope. It might as well be now.

Metalcat

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2023, 12:15:45 PM »
I'm always fascinated by this intention to colonize Mars.

If the issue is that our economy is so fragile that it can't manage a slowing of population growth, then how can it survive what it would take to colonize Mars??

The technological advances that would have to happen to realistically colonize Mars are so extraordinary that current rules of our economy just wouldn't apply.

If we are at a place where interstellar travel is affordable enough to be able to readily transport the materials we would need to colonize AND we have the technology to somehow breathe on Mars, I doubt our economy will depend on the labour of individual humans.

Also, a lot of these same futurists are also the ones touting longevity research, claiming we're very close to extending human life to 150 years, so why do we need more babies if we can just get double the working years out of adults??

I mean, that's a hell of a lot more realistic than colonizing Mars, or it happening within a time frame that current birth rates are at all relevant.

ETA: and if the issue is useful worker years, then isn't FIRE a problem?? Wouldn't making us all work longer make a bit more sense than trying to get folks who don't want babies to have babies??
« Last Edit: September 25, 2023, 12:18:31 PM by Metalcat »

afox

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2023, 12:22:05 PM »
Be careful what you wish for!

If you think your quality of life will get better with less humans you are so wrong. Noone can argue that less humans means less environmental impact however there is a huge tradeoff. Less humans also means not as many doctors, policeman, teachers, engineers, home builders, you name it.

I know its easy to envision the benefits of a declining population less overall environmental impact, less crowds, etc but the reality is that fewer people means the cost and availability of services skyrockets because there's noone to do the work. Even with technology AI.

The idea that everywhere is too crowded IMO often comes from people that are immature, haven't really explored much, and don't have a basic understanding of geography, economics, history, or technology. In reality even though people complain about traffic, too many people on their favorite hiking/biking trails, ski area, etc there are plenty of places that are underutilized and the truth is that most people want to live and recreate in close proximity to other people, turns out thats just a human thing.

In reality the best solution is a world in which we maintain or slowly increase population while continually and drastically reducing the environmental impact of humans while simultaneously increasing everyone quality of life/standard of living. To crack this nut we need highly educated and hard working people on all aspects of making modern life sustainable. I think its completely within the realm of what we as humans can do.


GuitarStv

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2023, 12:34:43 PM »
I'm always fascinated by this intention to colonize Mars.

If the issue is that our economy is so fragile that it can't manage a slowing of population growth, then how can it survive what it would take to colonize Mars??

The technological advances that would have to happen to realistically colonize Mars are so extraordinary that current rules of our economy just wouldn't apply.

If we are at a place where interstellar travel is affordable enough to be able to readily transport the materials we would need to colonize AND we have the technology to somehow breathe on Mars, I doubt our economy will depend on the labour of individual humans.

Also, a lot of these same futurists are also the ones touting longevity research, claiming we're very close to extending human life to 150 years, so why do we need more babies if we can just get double the working years out of adults??

I mean, that's a hell of a lot more realistic than colonizing Mars, or it happening within a time frame that current birth rates are at all relevant.

ETA: and if the issue is useful worker years, then isn't FIRE a problem?? Wouldn't making us all work longer make a bit more sense than trying to get folks who don't want babies to have babies??

We tend to think of ourselves as being individuals.  You just need food, water, and air, right?  But I keep reading about how important connection to the Earth is to our health, often in unexpected ways.  You don't sleep as well, live as long, or even think as efficiently when you have the wrong bacteria in your gut.  You develop weird intolerances and reactions to things when you aren't regularly exposed to the kind of bacteriological and fungal stimuli found in abundance in the outdoors.  Everything around us impacts us all the time, often in unexpected ways.

I'd lay good odds that packaging up people with food, water, and air and plopping them down in a truly alien environment would result in significantly reduced quality of life and longevity. 

desertadapted

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2023, 12:44:01 PM »
I’m confused by demographic catastrophizing.  Folks are going to have the number of kids they’re going to have and I believe the data is strong that pro-natalist policies do not materially work to consistently increase birth rates.  If we want to maintain a stable or slightly growing population in the US notwithstanding lower birthrates, it can be readily accomplished at  low cost through immigration.  If Japan or Korea wanted to address their population decline issues, they could do the same barring self-imposed cultural and legal barriers.  The “problem” of global population decline is a long way off, particularly given birth rates in sub-Saharan Africa.  Those countries that choose to remain ethnically “pure” notwithstanding declining birthrates will provide us interesting case studies on how best to weather a declining population while maintaining a high standard of living.   By the time global population decline forces us to confront how to maintain an appropriate standard of living amidst population decline, we will have tons of data on how to do it well or poorly. 

I acknowledge that anti-immigrant sentiment is an impediment to using migration to address declining birth rates.  And that kind of xenophobia seems to be the rule rather than the exception.  But I can’t muster any concern for folks who fret about emptying towns while at the same time opposing the very migrants who could revitalize those communities.  While I’m a big fan of social programs that make it easier to raise a family, I’m offended when they are couched in pro-natalist terms (i.e., the idea that the purpose of the policies is to increase the domestic birth rate), because there tends to be an implicit racial or ethnic fear/prejudice wrapped up in that concept.  There are plenty of highly motivated and hard-working people who want to take the place of the baby that an American family chooses not to have.

Metalcat

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2023, 12:59:30 PM »
Be careful what you wish for!

Are you replying to anyone in particular??

Also why would less population necessitate fewer useful professionals. Could a system not exist that just incentivizes those roles more?

Could we not just redirect talent away from video game development and marketing and towards law and other types of engineering?

Work on improving the culture of those professions to make them more appealing?

I was on the front lines of watching the medical staffing shortage in my particular area happen. I predicted it years before it happened and was essentially screaming from the rooftops at my colleagues that it was inevitable. They all thought I was fucking nuts because we had an oversupply of staff at the time.

It had NOTHING to do with population in general, it had to do with sexism. The fact that these roles were traditionally occupied by women who were conditioned to take the kind of treatment and low pay that was endemic in the culture.

I had a background in staffing and having hard conversations with employers about why their companies were having a hard time attracting and keeping staff.

My first month on the job I said "oh shit...this is a disaster." A decade later and it's being called a "crisis" with absolutely no solution in sight because literally every school in my region that trains these staff has shut its doors due to lack of interest.

Having more babies isn't going to solve the problem that women don't want to do these kinds of jobs anymore because they have more options and more professional self worth.

I'm just giving one very specific example to show that factors aside from population can heavily influence the willingness of the population to go into certain fields.

A contrasting example is that we have NO shortage of folks who want to be doctors. The ratio of suitable applicants to schools in Canada and the US is still thousands and thousands of applicants for limited spots.

Straight A students with stellar letters or recommendation are rejected from med school every single year. You could half the population and still have a massive over supply of young, perfectly qualified folks getting rejected from every med school they apply to.

The ONLY reason we aren't awash in doctors is because we haven't systematically prioritized funding their education, which also means funding healthcare in general. If we had more residency spots, we would have more doctors. Simple math. Complex issue, but simple math.

With automation and AI increasingly wiping out swaths of human skill, it only makes sense to strategically incentivize certain types of education and careers.

But will be need more warm bodies to meet the needs of the existing population?? I'm not convinced of that.

partgypsy

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2023, 03:48:28 PM »
Be careful what you wish for!

Are you replying to anyone in particular??

Also why would less population necessitate fewer useful professionals. Could a system not exist that just incentivizes those roles more?

Could we not just redirect talent away from video game development and marketing and towards law and other types of engineering?

Work on improving the culture of those professions to make them more appealing?

I was on the front lines of watching the medical staffing shortage in my particular area happen. I predicted it years before it happened and was essentially screaming from the rooftops at my colleagues that it was inevitable. They all thought I was fucking nuts because we had an oversupply of staff at the time.

It had NOTHING to do with population in general, it had to do with sexism. The fact that these roles were traditionally occupied by women who were conditioned to take the kind of treatment and low pay that was endemic in the culture.

I had a background in staffing and having hard conversations with employers about why their companies were having a hard time attracting and keeping staff.

My first month on the job I said "oh shit...this is a disaster." A decade later and it's being called a "crisis" with absolutely no solution in sight because literally every school in my region that trains these staff has shut its doors due to lack of interest.

Having more babies isn't going to solve the problem that women don't want to do these kinds of jobs anymore because they have more options and more professional self worth.

I'm just giving one very specific example to show that factors aside from population can heavily influence the willingness of the population to go into certain fields.

A contrasting example is that we have NO shortage of folks who want to be doctors. The ratio of suitable applicants to schools in Canada and the US is still thousands and thousands of applicants for limited spots.

Straight A students with stellar letters or recommendation are rejected from med school every single year. You could half the population and still have a massive over supply of young, perfectly qualified folks getting rejected from every med school they apply to.

The ONLY reason we aren't awash in doctors is because we haven't systematically prioritized funding their education, which also means funding healthcare in general. If we had more residency spots, we would have more doctors. Simple math. Complex issue, but simple math.

With automation and AI increasingly wiping out swaths of human skill, it only makes sense to strategically incentivize certain types of education and careers.

But will be need more warm bodies to meet the needs of the existing population?? I'm not convinced of that.

I agree with all of this. we already have a medical staffing crisis. We had short staffing already pre COVID, and then with COVID and burn out it is now chronic. Very little has to do with the number of people in the US. It is surprising that people are wringing their hands about population declines that it's "unsolvable" despite the fact we already have had a trend of either outsourcing or mechanizing those jobs away, yet having a rosy glass view that we can simply expand out to space. Expanding the human race out to space is a much much more difficult "problem" than transitioning to a society with lower birth rates. Its odd that people want to work and throw money on the space problem, while ignoring the very real issues in front of us. I guess they are not sexy enough. 
« Last Edit: September 25, 2023, 03:50:17 PM by partgypsy »

mathlete

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2023, 03:53:40 PM »
I get sad about declining populations every so often. It means I'm raising my kids in an older and older world. A world that will be built more for people my age, than people their age.

But long term, I think we'll be okay. There are still billions of people. And even if my grandkids generation is smaller than my generation, who knows? Maybe they'll get a wild streak in them and start breeding like rabbits again.

clifp

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2023, 04:06:08 PM »
Pertaining to Metalcat's comment, it never fails to astonish me how functionally ONE SINGLE DECADE in modern American history has imprinted itself so completely on the nation's collective beliefs that we continue to obsess over it and view it as a default norm out of centuries of options to choose from, even though it didn't bear much resemblance to any other time period in our history.

The 50s were the height of the US economic dominance.  Japan, and much of Europe was still recovering from WWII. US industrial prowess was unmatched, we had outproduced every other country in WWII,  by huge margins, and much of those lessons were transferred to the consumer section.  At the beginning of the decade we still had a pretty rare combination of consumers who had lots of money in their pocket from War bonds, and the GI Bill, and a ton of pent-up demand, since virtually all consumer goods were halted during WWII.

We also had two moderate Presidents Truman and Ike, Truman became more popular after he left office, but Ike was popular from day 1.


Metalcat

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2023, 04:14:09 PM »
Pertaining to Metalcat's comment, it never fails to astonish me how functionally ONE SINGLE DECADE in modern American history has imprinted itself so completely on the nation's collective beliefs that we continue to obsess over it and view it as a default norm out of centuries of options to choose from, even though it didn't bear much resemblance to any other time period in our history.

The 50s were the height of the US economic dominance.  Japan, and much of Europe was still recovering from WWII. US industrial prowess was unmatched, we had outproduced every other country in WWII,  by huge margins, and much of those lessons were transferred to the consumer section.  At the beginning of the decade we still had a pretty rare combination of consumers who had lots of money in their pocket from War bonds, and the GI Bill, and a ton of pent-up demand, since virtually all consumer goods were halted during WWII.

We also had two moderate Presidents Truman and Ike, Truman became more popular after he left office, but Ike was popular from day 1.

What's weird is to define that as some kind of norm though.

FireLane

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2023, 04:23:16 PM »
The 50s were the height of the US economic dominance.  Japan, and much of Europe was still recovering from WWII. US industrial prowess was unmatched, we had outproduced every other country in WWII,  by huge margins, and much of those lessons were transferred to the consumer section.  At the beginning of the decade we still had a pretty rare combination of consumers who had lots of money in their pocket from War bonds, and the GI Bill, and a ton of pent-up demand, since virtually all consumer goods were halted during WWII.

We also had two moderate Presidents Truman and Ike, Truman became more popular after he left office, but Ike was popular from day 1.

What's weird is to define that as some kind of norm though.

I don't think it's usually defined as a norm, but a lot of Americans have strong nostalgic feelings for that era and wish it could be brought back. What's more, they're convinced that the 50s economy can be brought back, if only politicians would do... something.

No one wants to accept the truth, which is that it arose from an unusual and unlikely-to-be-repeated confluence of circumstances (like the rest of the industrialized world being in ruins) which meant that America enjoyed a period of dominance where it faced no real competition for anything.

Straight A students with stellar letters or recommendation are rejected from med school every single year. You could half the population and still have a massive over supply of young, perfectly qualified folks getting rejected from every med school they apply to.

The ONLY reason we aren't awash in doctors is because we haven't systematically prioritized funding their education, which also means funding healthcare in general. If we had more residency spots, we would have more doctors. Simple math. Complex issue, but simple math.

I don't know if this is applicable to other countries, but I've heard that the American Medical Association controls the number of spots in medical schools and keeps it artificially low, because an undersupply of doctors keeps salaries high. One of several reasons Americans pay too much for health care.

Metalcat

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2023, 04:47:40 PM »
The 50s were the height of the US economic dominance.  Japan, and much of Europe was still recovering from WWII. US industrial prowess was unmatched, we had outproduced every other country in WWII,  by huge margins, and much of those lessons were transferred to the consumer section.  At the beginning of the decade we still had a pretty rare combination of consumers who had lots of money in their pocket from War bonds, and the GI Bill, and a ton of pent-up demand, since virtually all consumer goods were halted during WWII.

We also had two moderate Presidents Truman and Ike, Truman became more popular after he left office, but Ike was popular from day 1.

What's weird is to define that as some kind of norm though.

I don't think it's usually defined as a norm, but a lot of Americans have strong nostalgic feelings for that era and wish it could be brought back. What's more, they're convinced that the 50s economy can be brought back, if only politicians would do... something.

No one wants to accept the truth, which is that it arose from an unusual and unlikely-to-be-repeated confluence of circumstances (like the rest of the industrialized world being in ruins) which meant that America enjoyed a period of dominance where it faced no real competition for anything.

Straight A students with stellar letters or recommendation are rejected from med school every single year. You could half the population and still have a massive over supply of young, perfectly qualified folks getting rejected from every med school they apply to.

The ONLY reason we aren't awash in doctors is because we haven't systematically prioritized funding their education, which also means funding healthcare in general. If we had more residency spots, we would have more doctors. Simple math. Complex issue, but simple math.

I don't know if this is applicable to other countries, but I've heard that the American Medical Association controls the number of spots in medical schools and keeps it artificially low, because an undersupply of doctors keeps salaries high. One of several reasons Americans pay too much for health care.

lol, no. The AMA wishes it has that power, lol. We have a much worse shortage in Canada where we have universal healthcare, so no, that's not it.

Medical training and funding is a complex issue.

wenchsenior

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2023, 04:48:11 PM »
Pertaining to Metalcat's comment, it never fails to astonish me how functionally ONE SINGLE DECADE in modern American history has imprinted itself so completely on the nation's collective beliefs that we continue to obsess over it and view it as a default norm out of centuries of options to choose from, even though it didn't bear much resemblance to any other time period in our history.

The 50s were the height of the US economic dominance.  Japan, and much of Europe was still recovering from WWII. US industrial prowess was unmatched, we had outproduced every other country in WWII,  by huge margins, and much of those lessons were transferred to the consumer section.  At the beginning of the decade we still had a pretty rare combination of consumers who had lots of money in their pocket from War bonds, and the GI Bill, and a ton of pent-up demand, since virtually all consumer goods were halted during WWII.

We also had two moderate Presidents Truman and Ike, Truman became more popular after he left office, but Ike was popular from day 1.

That's exactly my point. It was a super-outlier of a decade in terms of conditions that led to prosperity and socio-economic dominance. It is unlike any decade before or since, so why do Americans keep acting like it should be our default setting?


RetiredAt63

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2023, 07:30:40 PM »
The birthrate during the Depression and WWII was very low.  The 50s were a rebound.  But some of the people setting policy now (especially in the US where so many of their politicians are so old) didn't live through the Depression but they were alive during the 50s.  What we experience in our childhoods tends to live on in our minds as the norm, even it it was really an aberration.   I've talked with people who grew up in Sudbury during its moonscape years, and to them that is what the landscape "should" look like.  They know in their heads it was not normal, but in their hearts it was.

Major changes cause major social changes.  The loss of population in medieval Europe (the Black Death is thought to have killed roughly 1/3 of the population, higher in some areas) made labour more valuable and the social order changed.  Industrialization threw people off the land.  Even WWI and the Spanish Flu caused social changes.

It is hard to live through times of major change, but in the long run people adjust.  I would personally rather see people adjusting to a smaller and declining population for a while than the worst of the predicted possible effects of a warming planet.  Of course the worst possibility is both happening concurrently.

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Re: Demographics decline - sustainability or catastrophe?
« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2023, 10:55:00 PM »
The birthrate during the Depression and WWII was very low.  The 50s were a rebound.  But some of the people setting policy now (especially in the US where so many of their politicians are so old) didn't live through the Depression but they were alive during the 50s.  What we experience in our childhoods tends to live on in our minds as the norm, even it it was really an aberration.   I've talked with people who grew up in Sudbury during its moonscape years, and to them that is what the landscape "should" look like.  They know in their heads it was not normal, but in their hearts it was.

Major changes cause major social changes.  The loss of population in medieval Europe (the Black Death is thought to have killed roughly 1/3 of the population, higher in some areas) made labour more valuable and the social order changed.  Industrialization threw people off the land.  Even WWI and the Spanish Flu caused social changes.

It is hard to live through times of major change, but in the long run people adjust.  I would personally rather see people adjusting to a smaller and declining population for a while than the worst of the predicted possible effects of a warming planet.  Of course the worst possibility is both happening concurrently.

So, the statement "birthrate during the Depression and WWII was very low.  The 50s were a rebound...." is a bit off. During WWII birth rates for women were about 2.4, well above the replacement rate of 2.1. Curent 2023 US birth rates are around 1.8, well below the replacement rate of 2.1. There was a dip due to COVID but that should be over.

During the great depression  birth rates were around 2.2-2.3 so also nothing like what we have now which is not a reaction to a major external force (war, disease, etc) but more of a cultural and economic shift whereby men and women are realizing that having children is very difficult to justify with todays numbers and scenarios. Im 45 and my parents generation was totally different, women and men both worked less. grandparents were more likely to live nearby and be involved in upbringing, daycare, college costs and healthcare costs have skyrocketed well in excess of inflation. Daycares now typically charger $20,000 ore more for part time care but they cant hire enough employees so not everyone can go, either the husband or wife will have to walk away from a career they spent $100k or more on. From a logical perspective, its a big no brainer F-&^ NO! So, the parents are pretty dedicated and they need to be cuz parents and families just get beat up more and more every year. COVID resulted in loss of hours at daycares, snacks at daycares, and massive price increases. Now daycares are opening as "diaper free" centers for 2 year olds. Not all kids will be potty trained at 2 due to their personalities. So, you pay full price and if your child has accidents you are out, you have to continue to pay to hold your spot even though your child cant attend. YOu still dont want to give up your career so u hire nannies at $25 an hour ($48,000 year). NOw you're paying nannies with retirement savings. The only people ever sign up for this shit is due to severe hormonal imbalances, the treatment of such may be helping to bring birth rates down.

The part about immigration is funny to me because its a good example of how people read a few headlines and extrapolate that to solution to a complex problem ignoring all of the details. Immigrants typically aren't college educated and ready to serve in professional positions. That's not totally bad, we need immigrants that speak little English and are not used to the country to do many unskilled jobs in the service sector. But immigration is not a solution to low national birth rates. I was interested in immigration and had a few interesting conversations with some locals in Mexico a few years ago and basically asked them why they haven't immigrated to the US. All said basically the same thing: they are happy in mexico and do not want to leave. Even though they know they can make more money for the same work in the US there are other factors to consider and its not worth it for them to leave Mexico. They all said that the people crossing the border illegally are completely desperate with no or extremely little savings and no way to earn money in their home countries (most are from poor Latin American countries but come thru Mexico for the land border). This why manufacturing and agricultural companies, especially want more immigrants, there are few Americans that have less than a high school education and no professional education, few Americans that will work for minimum wage away from their home, etc. Those ag jobs are kind of a perfect fit for non skilled immigrants.