Author Topic: Definition of Middle Class  (Read 23542 times)

RootofGood

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Re: Definition of Middle Class
« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2013, 10:18:41 AM »
Here is a non-economic quiz from the Christian Science Monitor that defines what class you are a part of in the U.S.  It's a little more current (and random) that the previous "test" posted earlier.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2013/1017/What-is-your-social-class-Take-our-quiz-to-find-out/dream-vehicle

I have been labeled a "BOURGEOIS VOUS" which means: "Your habits and perspectives most resemble those of upper-middle-class Americans. Though members of this group are not the most accurate judges of others' emotions, they do have a high faith in people's basic decency, and a commitment to raising healthy, curious, and imaginative children. Your people eat plenty of fruits and vegetables, eschew cigarettes, and live in homes full of books. You have vast and eclectic tastes in music, which likely exclude country, gospel, rap, and heavy metal. In fact, you identify so strongly with your own individual tastes, that you may resent it a bit when friends impinge upon your discoveries."

+1 for Bourgeois vous (though I have never seen the term with the vous modifier).  I self identify most closely with upper middle class, so I'll have to agree with the poll! 

The areas I lost class points in were due to my frugal mustachian nature.  Sensitivity to cereal prices, buying non-branded clothing items, and primarily using a landline (if obihai and google voice for free = landline). 

And I do like rap music - hopefully they won't come and revoke my bourgeois card over this.  It's just lyrical poetry set to an accompanying beat.  The social themes that are common topics of rap songs provide an excellent looking glass into the lives and customs of our urban youth.

prof61820

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Re: Definition of Middle Class
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2013, 10:29:59 AM »
I cheated a little because I recognized the Frenchman's eyes!

So did I...are we dating ourselves or just hapless bourgeois pigs?

boy_bye

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Re: Definition of Middle Class
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2013, 10:39:36 AM »
And I do like rap music - hopefully they won't come and revoke my bourgeois card over this.  It's just lyrical poetry set to an accompanying beat.  The social themes that are common topics of rap songs provide an excellent looking glass into the lives and customs of our urban youth.

haha, i think your description of why you enjoy rap definitely qualifies you for bourgeois status! ;)

galaxie

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Re: Definition of Middle Class
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2013, 10:45:34 AM »
+1 for bourgeois vous.  I identified with people's feelings and said I would stop at crosswalks, and was surprised to hear that that drives a person's apparent class downward.

I think the quiz was essentially correct about what class I'm a member of, but the New Generation of Urban Yuppies stops at crosswalks and cares about feelings, because we all walk and ride bikes sometimes too.

The cereal question was odd -- there was no "I don't eat cereal" option so I answered based on another grocery store food - cheese.  I do pay extra to get the kind of cheese I like best.

RootofGood

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Re: Definition of Middle Class
« Reply #54 on: October 22, 2013, 02:54:47 PM »
And I do like rap music - hopefully they won't come and revoke my bourgeois card over this.  It's just lyrical poetry set to an accompanying beat.  The social themes that are common topics of rap songs provide an excellent looking glass into the lives and customs of our urban youth.

haha, i think your description of why you enjoy rap definitely qualifies you for bourgeois status! ;)

Representin' tha bourgeois side! 

prof61820

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Re: Definition of Middle Class
« Reply #55 on: October 27, 2013, 05:55:18 AM »
Jimmy Carter thinks many in the middle class in the United States are really poor.  He may be right...

http://www.freep.com/article/20131008/NEWS15/310080073

prof61820

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Re: Definition of Middle Class
« Reply #56 on: October 27, 2013, 07:49:55 AM »
I don't see how this is even close to a middle class lifestyle in a first world country.  US News and World report predicts that the "lucky" members of the intern generation will get to work until 75.  I don't think our nation's retirement system is sustainable if we value a large middle class.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/10/25/millennials-will-student-debt-really-push-your-retirement-age-to-75?s_cid=rss%3Amillennials-will-student-debt-really-push-your-retirement-age-to-75

grantmeaname

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Re: Definition of Middle Class
« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2013, 07:58:00 AM »
I don't see how this is even close to a middle class lifestyle in a first world country.  US News and World report predicts that the "lucky" members of the intern generation will get to work until 75.  I don't think our nation's retirement system is sustainable if we value a large middle class.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2013/10/25/millennials-will-student-debt-really-push-your-retirement-age-to-75?s_cid=rss%3Amillennials-will-student-debt-really-push-your-retirement-age-to-75
I've got to question any analysis that concludes that it takes 14 years to overcome $15,000 worth of debt.

mcm29

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Re: Definition of Middle Class
« Reply #58 on: October 30, 2013, 08:11:26 AM »
Here is a non-economic quiz from the Christian Science Monitor that defines what class you are a part of in the U.S.  It's a little more current (and random) that the previous "test" posted earlier.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2013/1017/What-is-your-social-class-Take-our-quiz-to-find-out/dream-vehicle

I have been labeled a "BOURGEOIS VOUS" which means: "Your habits and perspectives most resemble those of upper-middle-class Americans. Though members of this group are not the most accurate judges of others' emotions, they do have a high faith in people's basic decency, and a commitment to raising healthy, curious, and imaginative children. Your people eat plenty of fruits and vegetables, eschew cigarettes, and live in homes full of books. You have vast and eclectic tastes in music, which likely exclude country, gospel, rap, and heavy metal. In fact, you identify so strongly with your own individual tastes, that you may resent it a bit when friends impinge upon your discoveries."


I had a different response to the Monitor quiz. I was surprised by how negative some of the upper middle class characteristics are. Responses revealing cruelty and self-absorption were ranked upper- as opposed to lower-class. Each Monitor answer was backed by a study, I see, but I hope that acting like a jerk to pedestrians and feeling like the law doesn't apply to oneself are simply the characteristics of some self-important people and not the upper class as a whole. If not, I don't want to be part of that upper class!

PS Is the Monitor still in Boston? I am from MA and despite our limousine liberal image in the rest of the nation, there are definite social mores here against flaunting wealth and acting against others in this rather tight-knit state (oops, I mean "Commonwealth"). We earn a lot of money in MA, but that simply pays for the high-priced childcare, expensive crappy houses and winter heating oil. (Please don't tell me to move - people choose what they want to spend their mustachian dollars on.) My point though is that perhaps the Monitor is describing the upper class in a particularly MA way, i.e. the upper class (those that can afford a lot even in MA) are a bunch of selfish SOBs. I hope that this is not true and we can disregard this quiz!

prof61820

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Re: Definition of Middle Class
« Reply #59 on: October 31, 2013, 10:02:04 AM »
I've got to question any analysis that concludes that it takes 14 years to overcome $15,000 worth of debt.

This is, no doubt, a great point.  The MMM worldview needs to be more widely disseminated by the news media that seems more interested in promoting consumerism over retirement security now.  Here's how the rest of the soft, undisciplined world lives...http://retireby40.org/2013/08/retirement-saving-crisis/

The median retirement account balance for people 55-64 (who has retirement accounts) is only $100,000. That might sound like a lot of money, but it could be gone in just a few years. What about those folks without retirement accounts? Their median balance is just $12,000. That’s not even close to being enough for one year of retirement.  If you have only $12,000 saved up at 64, then you are going to be in for a very frugal retirement.

It’s a tough situation for the working class. When you’re not making a lot of money, saving for retirement is put on the back burner. I remember when my family immigrated to the US. My parents barely made enough money to pay the bills and they couldn’t save any money for a long time. Today, they don’t have a lot of retirement saving, but their expense is pretty low so it’s not too bad. My dad is still making money from his rental condos and day trading, so they are doing fine for now. They also live in Thailand so their expense is a magnitude lower than here in the US.

The key research findings are as follows: (from NIRS’s website)

    Account ownership rates are closely correlated with income and wealth. More than 38 million working-age households (45 percent) do not own any retirement account assets, whether in an employer-sponsored 401(k) type plan or an IRA. Households that do own retirement accounts have significantly higher income and wealth—more than double the income and five times the non-retirement assets—than households that do not own a retirement account.
    The average working household has virtually no retirement savings. When all households are included— not just households with retirement accounts—the median retirement account balance is $3,000 for all working-age households and $12,000 for near-retirement households. Two-thirds of working households age 55-64 with at least one earner have retirement savings less than one times their annual income, which is far below what they will need to maintain their standard of living in retirement.
    The collective retirement savings gap among working households age 25-64 ranges from $6.8 to $14 trillion, depending on the financial measure. A large majority of households fall short of conservative retirement savings targets for their age and income based on working until age 67. Based on retirement account assets, 92 percent of working households do not meet targets. Under broader measures, most households still have insufficient assets: 90 percent fall short based on retirement account balances and estimated DB pension assets combined, 84 percent fall short based on total financial assets, and 65 percent fall short based on net worth.
The median retirement account balance for people 55-64 (who has retirement accounts) is only $100,000. That might sound like a lot of money, but it could be gone in just a few years. What about those folks without retirement accounts? Their median balance is just $12,000. That’s not even close to being enough for one year of retirement.  If you have only $12,000 saved up at 64, then you are going to be in for a very frugal retirement.

Jamesqf

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Re: Definition of Middle Class
« Reply #60 on: October 31, 2013, 11:15:59 AM »
Have to admit that CSM quiz really puzzled me.  A lot of the questions didn't seem to have reasonable answers.  Some of them didn't even have answers at all: I mean, you're supposed to guess at emotions by looking at a chopped-out view of a person's eyes?  And that's supposed to tell you something about class?

Then it seems that they're using "class" to cover a bunch of not-really-related stuff, like how much money you make & have saved, vs cultural attitudes.  There are (to be simplistic) a number of rich low-lifes out there (most celebrities & sports stars, all rappers, &c), as well as members of the cultural/intellectual upper classes who don't have all that much money.

boy_bye

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Re: Definition of Middle Class
« Reply #61 on: October 31, 2013, 11:53:03 AM »
Then it seems that they're using "class" to cover a bunch of not-really-related stuff, like how much money you make & have saved, vs cultural attitudes.  There are (to be simplistic) a number of rich low-lifes out there (most celebrities & sports stars, all rappers, &c), as well as members of the cultural/intellectual upper classes who don't have all that much money.

lol, okay, explain to me how adam yauch, yasiin bey (formerly mos def), and talib kweli are low lifes.

put another way, maayyybe try not talking shit about things you don't understand.

Jamesqf

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Re: Definition of Middle Class
« Reply #62 on: October 31, 2013, 03:01:29 PM »
lol, okay, explain to me how adam yauch, yasiin bey (formerly mos def), and talib kweli are low lifes.

To explain, I would first have to learn who those people are.  Now a quick Google search shows that they're all rappers/hip-hop artists.  QED

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put another way, maayyybe try not talking shit about things you don't understand.

Works both ways, you know.  Put another way still, I think you're in the position of someone trying to appreciate art while refusing to turn on the lights in the museum :-)

Undecided

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Re: Definition of Middle Class
« Reply #63 on: October 31, 2013, 04:18:52 PM »
lol, okay, explain to me how adam yauch, yasiin bey (formerly mos def), and talib kweli are low lifes.

To explain, I would first have to learn who those people are.  Now a quick Google search shows that they're all rappers/hip-hop artists.  QED

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put another way, maayyybe try not talking shit about things you don't understand.

Works both ways, you know.  Put another way still, I think you're in the position of someone trying to appreciate art while refusing to turn on the lights in the museum :-)

I'm familiar with some of your declarations here about art (or your rejection of the label of art for what is considered art by others), but madgeylou just said the people in question aren't low lifes, not that they were great artists. So, notwithstanding your right to express an opinion whether it's at all informed or not, why are these people "low lifes"?