Author Topic: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension  (Read 11075 times)

AJDZee

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Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« on: July 16, 2014, 07:35:32 AM »
Which do you feel is a better option?

I'm considering switching employers. My current employer has a defined contribution and the new place is a defined benefit pension.

Their internal recruiter is trying to sell me on the idea that their pension is "AMAZING", only 6% of company still have a defined benefit plan, yada yada.  She summed it up by saying, 'essentially you work here until you're 60-65 and you retire a rich man!'

She's a very nice lady, but doesn't realize I'm one of the few youngins' out there very involved in my financial planning and I do NOT plan to work until I'm 60!!

What I like about my current plan is I know the money that's contributed... I can see it put into the account every month, I put in 4% and my company matches. I can log in and track my balance, it's tangible, and I can add those contribution when tracking my savings goals.

With this new plan, they make it seem like I tell them how much pension I would like, and at what age I'm going to retire...and poof!...it's that easy!... ? I've always been cautious with 'promised' money so far into the future...
I spoke to a friend that works for this same company and he said the only way to know how much contribution they're making is when he's doing his taxes.

What I do know about the pension, they pay 1.4% for every year of service, of your salary approaching retirement.
I can pay to top up additional if I want, and all MER/fees/etc are waived on all investments.
I have no idea if it's indexed to inflation.

The pension is not the deciding factor if I switch, but what are your opinions? All I have experience with is defined contribution...

matchewed

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2014, 07:38:12 AM »
Devil is in the details. This doesn't really have any. :)

With that said I think the future is towards defined contribution plans. There is often more control and less of an onus on the employer.

wing117

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2014, 07:54:44 AM »
I had this choice when I started working with my current employer. I decided to go with the defined contribution plan ("Optional Retirement Plan" as they call it.) instead of the defined benefit plan for a couple reasons:

1.) The amount of money I put into the defined benefit plan did not matter - only my years of service + how much I made in my top 4 years of earning. The amount of money I get has nothing to do with how much I put in (directly).
2.) I could not see and track my money or how much it has earned.
3.) I could not justify or guarantee the years of service required to:
a.) become vetted (10 years) and
b.) get retirement benefits (25 years of service).

If I ever left I could take my money out 60 days after signing my resignation, but I had no way of verifying my gains! If I leave after 10 years, how much did I make in interest? Do I only get my money out + matching with no interest? My company had no way of showing me metrics in any capacity.

If you are planning on working at the company for 30 years and retiring with full benefits and don't care about the money you put in (only the guaranteed checks of money they say they'll give you), fine. It's a good program.

Lets not mention that my state is currently working to keep the program funded as now a lot of people are retiring and the funds are beginning to fall short... That's frightening.

So, my personal opinion, and as a Mustachian, I'd opt for the defined contribution plan and throw it into an index fund (or split between Domestic Index and International Index).

clarkm04

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2014, 08:09:25 AM »
I think you'll need more details on the DP plan to make a better determination (years of service to vest, options when you leave, etc)

My first job had a DP plan.  Loved it.  100% vested and managed very well.  Though I left the company at 29, upon retirement (even as young as 55) they had a formula to determine how much I'd get paid monthly the rest of my life.  Since the pool of money is high, even if the market tanks for a prolonged period of time, my monthly check would be stable for life.  Since I only worked there 5 years, and I could roll over the money I did.  It was tough choice, since to hit the same amount by retirement, I'll have to be diligent and not do stupid things.

My neighbor is 84, and has been drawing a pension since 63 along with health benefits.  It's stunning how company philosophy on workers have changed since the 1980s.

Zikoris

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2014, 08:10:46 AM »
Don't know the details of yours, but a lot of DB pensions heavily penalize early retirees, and I've known a few people who had DB pensions go belly up mid-career. Greatly prefer Defined Contribution here.

EarlyRetirementGuy

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2014, 08:23:02 AM »
Defined benefit pensions almost always pay alot more out than you have put in, even with the investment growth!

Personally I'd go for the defined benefit, pay any extra in that you can to gain additional 'years' and then put the rest in other investments.

Here the the UK most pensions have a minimum retirement age anyway so those looking for early retirement would gain no advantage from going into defined contribution over defined benefit.

Eggman111

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2014, 08:58:42 AM »
Defined benefit pensions almost always pay alot more out than you have put in, even with the investment growth!
If more money comes out than goes in, where does the money come from?

I think especially nowadays, the chances of working for the same employer for 25+ years is slim to none. I bet there is a minimum age, too. Do you know what that is?

That said, if that's the only option you have with your new employer, I wouldn't let it be a deciding factor. If the pay and other benefits are enough that you can retire earlier on your own than with your current employer, then any pension is just gravy on top.

EarlyRetirementGuy

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2014, 10:01:41 AM »
If more money comes out than goes in, where does the money come from?

I think especially nowadays, the chances of working for the same employer for 25+ years is slim to none. I bet there is a minimum age, too. Do you know what that is?

That said, if that's the only option you have with your new employer, I wouldn't let it be a deciding factor. If the pay and other benefits are enough that you can retire earlier on your own than with your current employer, then any pension is just gravy on top.

The defined benefit pot is usually a liability to the company itself. If there is not enough money in the pot, the funds can instead be drawn from company profits or share capital etc.

The minimum age will vary between companies. I believe the average in the UK is about 50-55.
Why would it matter how long you work for your employer for? Even if you only work there for a few years it will still payout the % amount.

simonsez

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2014, 10:03:36 AM »
Defined benefit pensions almost always pay alot more out than you have put in, even with the investment growth!
If more money comes out than goes in, where does the money come from?
The employer (unless the initial 'you' being used referred to the employee + employer).  I am a federal employee (US) and we receive a small defined benefit.  Looking at my paychecks, the portion of my paycheck that goes toward the defined benefit portion is smaller than what my employer contributes.

Likewise with a 401k, it is usually the case that they pay out more than what you have put in, accounting for investment growth, because of employer contributions.

MDM

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2014, 10:24:09 AM »
Devil is in the details. This doesn't really have any. :)

With that said I think the future is towards defined contribution plans. There is often more control and less of an onus on the employer.
^This. 

As other posts have hinted, the defined benefit plans often cost the employer more.  That is why many companies have switched to defined contribution, not because DC is a better deal for the employee.

But you really need to understand the details of your DB plan to make a valid choice.

Eggman111

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2014, 12:23:21 PM »
The defined benefit pot is usually a liability to the company itself. If there is not enough money in the pot, the funds can instead be drawn from company profits or share capital etc.

The minimum age will vary between companies. I believe the average in the UK is about 50-55.
Why would it matter how long you work for your employer for? Even if you only work there for a few years it will still payout the % amount.

OK, I see what you and simonsez mean about where the money comes from.

As for the length of employment, I was under the impression that you needed to work a certain number of years to get the payout. That wasn't explicitly stated, though. I was going from what I've heard in the past about these plans. It does come down to the details, as others have said.

Hvillian

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2014, 01:27:57 PM »
Defined benefit plans are usually a pretty good deal, especially if you are entering the plan later in your career.  If you worked from age 60 to 65 at this company, they would probably be obligated to pay you about 7% of your salary - for the rest of your life.

I can give you more of the pros and cons, but my knowledge is restricted to the US, and mostly to larger companies and governments.  Is the employer based in the US?  Approximately how many employees does the plan cover (5, 50, 5,000)?




kkbmustang

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2014, 01:47:21 PM »
The reason defined benefit plans are less common is because the employer bears the investment return risk and it is much more expensive to fund and maintain. In a defined benefit plan, the employee is guaranteed a set benefit upon retirement (or early retirement, if allowed by the plan). That's why it's called a defined benefit plan. 

A defined contribution plan is one in which the amount the employee can contribute is set (i.e., defined), but the employee bears the risks associated with returns. If you make crap investment choices or don't contribute, the employer isn't on the hook if, when you get to retirement, your nest egg is paltry.

Personally, I'd prefer a DB plan. They are generally a much better deal for employees.

However, given that you intend to retire early, it'd be best if you knew what the rules for the plan are. Ask for a Summary Plan Description from your potential new employer. They are required by law to have them. It should be a summary of the benefits provided by the plan in lay person's language. It should describe the vesting schedule, distribution options and how the benefit is calculated (usually based on some combination of years of service and final average pay (defined in different ways depending on the plan)).

rocketpj

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2014, 01:49:00 PM »
Five years ago my employers switched from a defined contribution plan to a defined benefit plan.  I only had a couple thousand in the original plan (I was new at the time) and left it there as it was 'locked in' anyway and my options for releasing it meant that I would lose the employer contribution.  My decision at the time was to leave it where it was and make choices once a year about how to allocate it (so far I've never touched it and it's fine).  The defined benefit plan is non-optional but so far I am fairly happy with it.  It is a municipal government employee pension plan (though I'm not a gov't employee).

My defined benefit plan includes a larger contribution from me (7% of gross income) plus a much larger contribution from my employer (9.5% of gross income).  So I am getting 16.5% of my gross income saved, a more than doubling of my investment each paycheck. It seems reasonably well managed (they give us a report of results and projections each year), though it does assume I will work until at least 55 (which, realistically is somewhat likely given my late arrival in the land of Moustache).  It won't pay out until I am 55 no matter what I do, but my latest 'statement' tells me that if I were to quit today it would pay me $125/month starting at 55.  Which is a start anyway.

dude

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2014, 11:18:31 AM »
DB plans are great, and are why many of our parents and grandparents enjoyed their golden years free from want.  But theirs was a time of lifetime employment with a single employer.  That's very rare today.  DB plans are a golden handcuff of sorts, because they force you to stick around for a lot of years before you can collect.  Some have vesting provisions for years served that are short of the full benefit, so it may be that you can lock in a (small) pension by working for a company for 10 years, then moving on, but usually you'll have to wait until much later in life to collect (often 62 or later).  Private pensions plans do have some backing by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Company, a quasi-governmental agency that assumes underfunded pensions, or pensions from bankrupt companies, etc.  The maximum benefit payable by PHGC is (currently) $59,320.  According to PBGC, a 2006 study showed that almost 85% of retirees who collect pensions from the PBGC get the max benefit.

Roland of Gilead

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2014, 11:29:14 AM »
Another slight positive for DB pension vs 401K type plans is that some states (unfairly) tax 401K and IRA distributions but do not tax pension distributions.  Hawaii is the most notorious for this.

AJDZee

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2014, 11:51:02 AM »
I can give you more of the pros and cons, but my knowledge is restricted to the US, and mostly to larger companies and governments.  Is the employer based in the US?  Approximately how many employees does the plan cover (5, 50, 5,000)?

Based in Canada, but has expanding operations in US/Asia as well. Company has 85,000 employees, I believe ~80% of which are in the pension program.

The terms around vesting period and when I can 'retire' and other factors are still to be determined. In the case of figuring out if this type of pension plan hinders someone from early retirement, those are exactly the things I need to know. They don't explicitly state that on the welcome package I got, but then again, these brochures are made for 'most people' and most people aren't looking to call it quits before 55-60. All I know is they pay everything, no deductions from your paycheque (<-- see, Canadian), unless you want to contribute over/above the company.

Was just wondering if anyone out there with experience with DB pensions feels like it is getting in the way of FIRE.

By the way... I took the job. :)  As I said, the pension wasn't the deciding factor, just something I'll be figuring out as soon as I get there.
With the increase in pay alone, I'm already doing better than my current salary + pension + ESPP.

Rika Non

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2014, 12:40:21 PM »
AJDZee:

Since you are talking about 6% of companies have this, you are talking about private US based pension system.  If you have not yet done so you need to read up on 2006 Pension Reform on ERISA.  You need to confirm that you are discussing a pension covered by PBGC (Pension Guaranty), there is a maximum yearly pension that is insurance protected even if the company bankrupts or defaults on the pension.  The US Feds also regulate the minimum contribution in the private held pension funds to ensure compliance.  Due to the 2006 reforms that is when many US companies that still had private pensions chose to close their plans instead of conforming to the updated standards.

That said, I am someone with a US corporate pension.  Even if you are considering early retirement, what you have to ask about is the accrual tables and the vesting period.  Typically once you have stayed employed past the vestment period (3-7 years) what pension you have accrued is yours, if you retire early you cannot claim the pension until a pre-set age.  In my case that is 65, so if I retire at 50, that pension I have earned will sit there at that amount until I can claim and start receiving payment at 65.  As long as you have other means for the "gap" there is no conflict between early retirement and pension.  You just have to be aware of the rules and not be relying solely on the pension.

Also some companies allow both pension and 401k.  If possible do both.


MooseOutFront

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2014, 01:43:24 PM »
An important consideration is whether the pension payout will be inflation adjusted or not.  My wife is vested in hers, but it is not indexed to inflation.  The monthly payments cannot begin until she's 60.  So when she retires at 40... that number won't be looking too hot 20 yrs later.

In our case we'll likely just pull the cash value out when she retires due to this one factor.

RFAAOATB

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2014, 02:23:44 PM »
One concern I have with defined benefit is that the money typically stops when you (and your spouse if that is an option) die.  Does this make creating a legacy fund more difficult than with a defined contribution plan that you can leave to an estate or trust?

Cassie

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2014, 03:13:38 PM »
i love having a monthly pension that I can count on.  I vote for the defined benefit.

Spartana

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2014, 05:27:36 PM »
I also have a public Defined Benefit Pension and love knowing that I'll always get that until I die unless the government ceases to exist. Lots of security knowing I'll have that, along with a 3% annual COLA, and with no heirs to leave anything to it's a better option for me.  Plus I was able to start getting that when I turned 50 as a Public Safety employee - not sure you can get the other type that early. I retired at 42 and knowing I had that waiting for me once I turned 50 was great - even if it was a fairly small amount because I left work early.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 05:42:34 PM by Spartana »

This_Is_My_Username

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2014, 05:57:08 PM »
Which do you feel is a better option?

I'm considering switching employers. My current employer has a defined contribution and the new place is a defined benefit pension.

Their internal recruiter is trying to sell me on the idea that their pension is "AMAZING", only 6% of company still have a defined benefit plan, yada yada.  She summed it up by saying, 'essentially you work here until you're 60-65 and you retire a rich man!'

She's a very nice lady, but doesn't realize I'm one of the few youngins' out there very involved in my financial planning and I do NOT plan to work until I'm 60!!

What I like about my current plan is I know the money that's contributed... I can see it put into the account every month, I put in 4% and my company matches. I can log in and track my balance, it's tangible, and I can add those contribution when tracking my savings goals.

With this new plan, they make it seem like I tell them how much pension I would like, and at what age I'm going to retire...and poof!...it's that easy!... ? I've always been cautious with 'promised' money so far into the future...
I spoke to a friend that works for this same company and he said the only way to know how much contribution they're making is when he's doing his taxes.

What I do know about the pension, they pay 1.4% for every year of service, of your salary approaching retirement.
I can pay to top up additional if I want, and all MER/fees/etc are waived on all investments.
I have no idea if it's indexed to inflation.

The pension is not the deciding factor if I switch, but what are your opinions? All I have experience with is defined contribution...

I've done a bit of work with DB superannuation.

It is extremely complicated.   And the outcomes are hugely variable.   And every scheme is different.  No one can really advise without knowing the details of the fund. 

The correct decision depends on the terms and conditions of the scheme. 

Assuming you will retire early, read the terms and conditions of the scheme and look for the following:

(1) If you quit after, say, 4 years, and take a benefit at that time, what will you get? 

(2) If you quit after, say, 4 years, and keep your benefit in the fund, and take a benefit at retirement age (60?).  What will you get?

(3) how can rule changes be made? Is it a government scheme, under legislation?  Legislation can change.  Is it a corporate scheme, subject to the generosity of the company?  What if the company goes bad, or goes bust? 

deborah

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #23 on: July 20, 2014, 08:57:20 PM »
Both my parents and I had DB pensions at some of the places we worked. The main problem with DB is that the people who leave the job early subsidize the people who remain to retire. They do this by not getting much interest on their savings (in my parents' cases it was no interest when they left early), or by being eligible for a pension at "retirement date" which doesn't change in $ from the time you leave the company (so the other people get the interest you would have accumulated).

If you are going to retire from a place with a DB pension it can be very good, if you leave before retirement, it can be very bad.

usmarine1975

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #24 on: July 20, 2014, 09:37:36 PM »
DB pensions are on the chopping block everywhere. Biggest problem is the gov and companies under fund them. When they go to the guarantee the settlement can be pennies on the dollar. I have seen a 32 year employee collecting $7 per month from their pension because the company went bankrupt.  Companies have went away from them because they are not sustainable in our system today.

dude

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2014, 10:47:12 AM »
Another slight positive for DB pension vs 401K type plans is that some states (unfairly) tax 401K and IRA distributions but do not tax pension distributions.  Hawaii is the most notorious for this.

Massachusetts is one such state, and I'm glad of it!

Cressida

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2014, 11:37:08 PM »
DB pensions are on the chopping block everywhere. Biggest problem is the gov and companies under fund them.

Absolutely. In a perfect world the defined benefit is clearly better than the defined contribution, but I wouldn't trust a DB at this point, not even a little bit. Institutions renege on them all the time.

AJDZee

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2014, 06:45:03 AM »
DB pensions are on the chopping block everywhere. Biggest problem is the gov and companies under fund them.

Absolutely. In a perfect world the defined benefit is clearly better than the defined contribution, but I wouldn't trust a DB at this point, not even a little bit. Institutions renege on them all the time.

I agree with this too, 100%.
I would rather my small % of salary being transferred into an account that I can track and see, rather than 'promised' money in the future... even if that promised money is greater.
I plan to be on this earth for another 50-60 years, a lot can (and will) happen in that time. Making the argument that this company is very strong & stable only holds weight when looking at a 5-10 year horizon... any longer and all bets are off! haha

simonsez

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2014, 07:21:34 AM »
DB pensions are on the chopping block everywhere. Biggest problem is the gov and companies under fund them.

Absolutely. In a perfect world the defined benefit is clearly better than the defined contribution, but I wouldn't trust a DB at this point, not even a little bit. Institutions renege on them all the time.

I agree with this too, 100%.
I would rather my small % of salary being transferred into an account that I can track and see, rather than 'promised' money in the future... even if that promised money is greater.
I plan to be on this earth for another 50-60 years, a lot can (and will) happen in that time. Making the argument that this company is very strong & stable only holds weight when looking at a 5-10 year horizon... any longer and all bets are off! haha
I agree with this too.........at about maybe 15%.  Why in a perfect world is the defined benefit better than the defined contribution ceteris paribus?  In my perfect world, they would be similarly performing since within the plans they share the same types of investing risks.  10% contribution to either would yield the same potential pot of money from which to withdraw (just the pension has the more rigid withdrawal schedule). 

Maybe DB's wouldn't be as risky to employers if they weren't so generous to begin with, and thus, the risk the 'promised money' going away or being reduced is mitigated.  If you had a DB, would you accept a 5% reduction in eventual annual benefit holding your personal contributions to it constant if it meant you were much more likely to actually see those dollars in the future?  That is a pure hypothetical and I don't want to suggest someone with a DB should lobby that way but I do think DB's would be more viable (to employers) if the risk lined up with the payout a little more. 

Demographics and economics have changed, why wouldn't typical DB plans?  My guess is that employers want to offer DB's that pay similar to historical plans (when the demographics and economics supported that type of plan) but try and act like the inherent risk doesn't go up to match the expectations.  The employee just sees the dollar amount and doesn't think twice about what could happen since historically pensions were great.

I am a fed so I have both a DB and a DC plan.  There is risk but I trust my DB enough to that don't go running for the hills or feel cheated that I have dollars going toward it.  I'm probably pretty biased since I'm not 100% in either the 401k camp or the pension camp but I think it is great to have the ability to put dollars in multiple places.  Admittedly, if I was working somewhere that only had a pension, then I might feel more uneasy about the rug getting pulled since many eggs were in the basket.  Diversifying doesn't only have to be a strategy for the employee, the employer could do the same.

MrsPete

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2014, 08:52:41 AM »
The best advice you've received here is that you need to know and fully understand the details of YOUR potential pension plan.  Only then can you know whether it's a good deal for you personally. 

At a glance, if you're sure you're going to want to retire at a young age, it's probably a bad idea for you.

To help you make up your mind, I'll tell you some details and thoughts about my own pension plan.  These things may or may not be truthful for YOUR situation, but hopefully they'll help you form questions and ideas about what you want: 

- Typically a pension is offered in a job that is relatively low-paying.  The option seems to be, "We'll never pay you much, but if you stick with us, you'll retire comfortably."  It's unusual to find a high paying job AND a pension plan. 

- I became fully vested in the pension plan after having worked 5 years; newer employees just coming in are not vested until 10 years.  Why this matters:  A person who leaves before being vested takes away the money he's deposited, which probably isn't particularly worthwhile.  A person who leaves the company and is vested has two options:  1) take the money out.  2) leave the money and collect a pension at X age.  If you leave after only a few years, of course, the pension will be smaller, but it may still be worthwhile.  For example, my grandmother was a school teacher for only a handful of years in her youth, but when she turned 65 (65?) she began collecting a SMALL pension . . . and she lived to be 100.  Yeah, she totally won the pension game. 

- Most companies have a formula for determining the pension payment, and these are usually something like Average of the Four Years of Highest Salary x Years Worked divided by some number.  The formula should be available to you, and you can play with numbers to see what it might be worth. 

- In general, pensions are valuable only if you put in X number of years with the same company, and that's something that workers aren't necessarily doing these days.  Part of this is that people are more mobile, less attached to "home", and more likely to be part of a two-career family, which means a greater likelihood of moving.  Also companies are less loyal to their employees and don't seem to be so concerned with retaining experienced employees.  My school system is working hard to try to kick out all the teachers at the top of the salary scale -- they'd be thrilled if I'd leave, and a part of it is that I'm relatively close to the pension . . . I digress, but it's something that my similar-aged friends are seeing too.  In short, don't assume that a job at Company X will be available to you for 30 years, even if that's what you want. 

- Being part of a pension plan may tie you to a geographic area, and this may both hold you back AND may hold your spouse back.  This may become less of an issue as telecommuting becomes a more and more popular choice, but it has been an issue in our lives. 

- And then there's the fear about the company going out of business and/or backing out on its promises.  I do personally know someone who was screwed over by a pension promise, and I won't say that I don't occasionally think about how that could happen to me.  How do you judge decades ahead of time whether your employer won't alter the pension plan?  I don't know.

- When can you begin collecting the pension you're contemplating?  For me, the answer is after 30 years of service at any age (and one year of sick leave can be used to take this down to 29 years), OR age 65 for anyone who's vested in the program.  A person who puts in the 30 years gets basic medical for himself at no charge and can buy basic medical for his or her spouse at group rates. 

- What options will you have for how your pension will be distributed?  For me, I have four options.  #1 is what I'll almost certainly take:  I will be receiving 100% of my benefit and upon my death, benefits will end.  #2 has to do with Social Security leveling, which is just a bad deal all around.  #3 and #4 have to do with me accepting a smaller amount each month, but if I die first, my spouse would still receive a monthly check (for varying amounts, depending upon the option chosen) -- but I don't get as much money.  In my own situation, I am younger and healthier than my husband, but this could be an attractive option for the right person.  The real point:  When you're just starting out, it's hard to know where you'll be in a couple decades.  Will you have options available to you, or is it "Here's the pension?" 

- Of course, the lure of the pension is that your paychecks don't end -- you cannot outlive your money.  The downside of that is that if you die only a few years into retirement, you may be leaving money on the table, money you probably would've preferred to leave to your heirs.  I do personally know a couple teachers who've died only a couple years shy of retirement or who have died only a few years into retirement; unlike my grandmother, whom I mentioned earlier, they lost the pension game.  Without knowing the date of your death, you cannot approach this like a simple math problem -- you have to make some guesses, and that's why it's a tough question. 

Good luck to you in making this decision.  It really is a choice that you have to sift through your sieve of personal circumstances, and no one answer fits everyone.  All investments are risks, and choosing to take a job IS an investment -- it's an investment of your time. 


Spartana

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2014, 04:20:56 PM »


If you are going to retire from a place with a DB pension it can be very good, if you leave before retirement, it can be very bad.
I think that depends on if you're vested or not. In my case, as a public employee, I was vested after 5 years so even if I left my job before my earliest retirement date (which I did) that money stays in there and I can get a pension once I reach the proper age. While I don't add to it and wouldn't get as much as if I stayed on the job until retirement age, it still earns interest over the years. I left my job 8 years before I was eligible to start collecting my pension (left at 42 could collect pension at 50 at earliest) and knowing I had that in my future made leaving work early much easier.

Cassie

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2014, 05:20:54 PM »
I think you need to evaluate how stable your employer is. For us we have a very stable public employer with a well funded plan.

Left

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2014, 06:21:38 PM »
hm, example of detroit and how stable the auto industry was until the past decade? now they are rolling back some of the pensions and still asking for them to give up more money...

My personal reason for not wanting a pension is simple, I like to job hop, and when i do, I get more money (not a lot, a about a quarter each time). Job hopping lets me keep up with inflation because company doesn't give raises as often. So I'd never be vested into a pension :S. And yes, in the past 3 years and after 3 companies (I'm getting $1 more than if I had stayed with the original first company so I'm getting about $1,000/year more, original company has only given a $0.50 raise in the same time). Does pensions account for getting earning less money by staying with the same company?

If I wanted a pension, I'd probably just work another 10 years in US, then work in Canada for 10 years (and become a citizen there) and get on both countries social security. Yes I know this isn't traditional, but if I'm going for pensions, I might a well go big right?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 06:24:36 PM by eyem »

AJDZee

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2014, 07:38:52 AM »
So an update now that I've been at the new job for a few weeks... the more I learn about this 'amazing' pension plan the more I'm pissed off.

As a background, I recently left my last company worked there for 7 years, they had a defined contribution, I pay 4% and they match 4%. It was great for me because I could log in, see the balance, see the performance, and at the end of the day that money was mine. I just saw it as my employer kicking in 4% savings (of gross) to my FIRE goal.

With this new defined benefit plan it penalizes you for retiring early. With their pension projection tool, and using a conservative estimate for pay raises, I'm extremely underwhelmed, if I ever want to FIRE.

Working 20 years (retiring at 50) and taking my pension out right away works out to about $8,000/yr pension.

Some of the rules....

* If I die, no more payments to my estate/spouse
* If I want my spouse to continue receiving my pension if I die first, the pitiful ~8,000/yr pension is adjusted down.
* Pension is NOT indexed to inflation
* I haven't yet determined if the figures are in today's dollars or 2034 dollars, but at this point I'm not holding my breath.

They overstate the Pension Adjustment to roughly 9x what they contribute every year, so they also eat up my RRSP contribution room... thanks guys...

matchewed

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2014, 07:47:14 AM »
Is there a lump sum option w/ the plan? At the time of retirement you could just opt for a lump sum payment, calculate what that would be in the future, and just subtract it from your overall FIRE number. Lump sum payment of 100k. My number is 800k. Would only need to save another 700k between now and retirement...

That is a downside of most defined benefit plans. They were designed at a time where employers were giving incentives to employees to stick around for 30+ years. That is an antiquated mentality these days given most business models and employer/employee dynamics.

Sorry to hear that the plan sucks. Hope you can figure something out or move on to better waters.

Jellyfish

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2014, 01:29:12 PM »
OP, do you have an option to retire at 50 but defer taking your benefit until "normal retirement age" under the pension plan?  Would that improve your benefit?  I have a defined benefit pension at my employer that has a significant early retirement penalty.  However if I retire at 50 but defer collection of my pension benefit until age 60 I am not hit with the early retirement penalty.  My plan will be to take my benefit in a lump sum amount at age 60 and roll over into an IRA, I think.

Ziggurat

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2014, 01:35:57 PM »

Working 20 years (retiring at 50) and taking my pension out right away works out to about $8,000/yr pension.


Yeah, that sucks, but it does make sense it has to be quite a bit less for early retirement.  They project based on a standard life expectancy, and retiring at 50 means you are probably doubling the expected years of payout.

I'm in a similar boat with two such pensions from different jobs, and my plan is to wait to draw them to an older age when the early retirement reductions are not so steep. So I plan to bridge the years between ER and pension withdrawal with my own stash, some of which will have to be outside RRSPs and TFSAs.  But that stash does not have to be built for a normal 3-4% safe withdrawal rate, because I won't need to withdraw as much from it after the pension and then old age benefits kick in. I can draw it down quite a bit over the bridge years.

As to indexing, is it no indexing at all? My DB pensions are not officially indexed either, but they do make increases if they feel the fund is financially healthy, typically at around 2/3 to 3/4 of the cost of living index.  Not perfect, but at least it is something.

deborah

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2014, 02:03:09 PM »
You also need to check what the lump sum benefit is - one that I was in only gave you a lump sum of what you put in.

Cassie

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2014, 02:31:28 PM »
That is how many of them work.  You lose your employer contribution unless you take a pension.

deborah

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2014, 02:37:13 PM »
That is how many of them work.  You lose your employer contribution unless you take a pension.
It's one way of funding the pension - make sure everyone else helps to pay for it. DB schemes are fine if your employer will last, and if you take the pension, otherwise they are not worth it.

lexie2000

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #40 on: September 28, 2014, 04:41:35 PM »
I guess you were "lucky" to have a choice.  As far as DB plans are concerned:

Will the company still be around when you retire?
If they are, will they at some time eliminate or freeze the DB plan along the way?

DB plans in the U.S. are dropping like flies.  DH retired at age 56.  Full retirement age was 60 so he gave up a large chunk of change to unlock the golden handcuffs.  His company (a huge corporation that employs over 140K) announced a couple of months ago that they are freezing their DB plan after 2015.  In other words, those who have not yet retired will get no more credit for years of service after that time.  So much for "planning" for your retirement with a DB plan.

AJDZee

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2014, 05:39:06 AM »
That is a good question about taking a lump sum when I retire. I'll check about that... If so I'm sure it will be with heavy-handed actuarial adjustments, in their magic calculator.

The plan itself is not indexed to inflation. I have the option to contribute to the pension, which then changes to payouts to cover inflation (up to 4% per year). But I have to decide that now before I enrol.

Yea there is a deferred payment option if I retire at 50, but start my pension when I'm 65... I forget the exact figure, but it was around $12,000/yr... Up from $8,000 if I start at 50.

Although you can never know that far into the future, I'd say there is an extremely good chance this company will be around when I retire, it is one of the strongest performing banks in North America. But it's obviously a public ally traded company, and as such, it has more obligation to its shareholders than its future retirees!

ender

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2014, 08:35:29 AM »
How does the vesting schedule work? What happens if you leave before normal retirement age?

I'd rather a defined contribution plan which vests and I can roll into an IRA than a DB plan with nebulous vesting/payout and which remains completely in the control of a company nearly 100% of the time.

I don't plan on working until normal retirement age (nor do most of you) so for me the ability to take a pension with me and include it in my FIRE planning is worth a lot more than waiting until my mid-60s.


AH013

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Re: Defined Benefit vs Defined Contribution Pension
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2014, 01:08:48 PM »
Which is best is really a function of your age.  DB is skewed towards favoring the older, higher earners.  DC by comparison is supposed to try to equally favor both young & older employees, but in being objectively fair in providing equality on a $ for $ basis, it favors younger employees just due to the power of compounding.

Example:  Start a career earning $45k, get 3% raises for life, 11% return on investments, retire at 65.  "Young You" work phase from 25-45.  "Old You" work phase from 45-65.

Standard DB plans uses a formula like Annual Benefit Starting @ 65 = (Average of last 3 years salary) * 2% * # years worked.
Young You:  Average ending salary is $75k.  Annual payout in 20 years = $30k/year
Old You:  Average ending salary is $140.  Annual payout immediately = $56k/year
Clear winner: Old You

Conversely, with a DC plan, a typical benefit is a 5% match.
Young You:  Company match only, you have a $176k balance when you leave.  When you retire at 65 it has grown to $1.575M.  At a 4% withdrawal rate, you get an annual payout of $63k/year.
Old You:  Company match only, you have a $327k balance when you leave.  Since you retire immediately it is still only worth $327k.  At a 4% withdrawal rate, you get an annual payout of $13k/year.
Clear winner: Young You

Best of both worlds may be a switch from DC to DB midway through
40 years of DC:  Ending balance of $1.935M.  4% draw equals $77k/year
40 years of DB:  80% of Ending Salary of $140k = $112k/year benefit
20 years of DC then 20 years of DB:  $63k/year draw from DC (computed above) + $56k/year benefit from DB (computed above) = $119k/year

 

Wow, a phone plan for fifteen bucks!