Define Luxury

[Le0]

I had a incident with one of my aunts over the weekend. In a passing conversation cars came up. She has been driving her Honda for 14 years, bought new, is now over 400,000 km and still working well for her (Pretty Awesome).

I then made the comment that cars are a luxury. She took it very personal and the conversation escalated quickly, leaving me to wonder what I had said to offend her. There is more to this, yes I said some things in defence that I shouldn't have, but she was somehow offended by me saying cars are a luxury.

We have said that we would finish the conversation another time, and I want to get the MMM community input before.

Are all cars a Luxury?

Are their situations where they are not? (I see a business as a situation where a car may be required)

Have you had a similar situation with family for friends, and how have you dealt with it?

[matchewed]

Cars being luxury - depends on the context of where you live, your accessibility to other options, and general incomes in the area.

You and your aunt, well it sounds like from what you're saying that she may have taken more offense at your slightly hand waved things that you said.

[soccerluvof4]

There is to many times where a car is needed BUT the type of Car you purchase imo is what makes it a luxury. I suppose you could change your entire life to not need a car but then it comes to weighing out the cost , benefits etc... I think if you Aunt has 400k on her car she is not looking for luxury but I know that wasn't your point.

[ketchup]

Luxury is relative.  Does not exist in a vacuum.

I view air conditioning as a luxury in July, but plenty think of it as a 100% non-negotiable requirement.

I think of my upcoming lunch as just a meal, but a starving person would view it as luxury.

My mother got pretty upset when I mocked my aunt's gigantic new Acura MDX as an unnecessary luxury.  Tread lightly.

[former player]

I still get a feeling of luxury buying a hardback book rather than waiting for the paperback.

Oh, cars?  Your aunt has "optimised" her life in a way which requires 30,000 km per annum driving.  I've driven a total of 37,000 miles in the last 35 years, and think it a luxury to have options other than driving.

For the elderly, for people with disabilities and for those who have to live in rural areas, life without a car can be difficult and restricted, and sometimes near impossible.  For everyone who has a choice over where they live and work, definitely a luxury.

[nereo]

Are all cars a Luxury?

Are their situations where they are not? (I see a business as a situation where a car may be required)

Have you had a similar situation with family for friends, and how have you dealt with it?

No, I don't think that all cars are a luxury.  I think they are very expensive (much more so than most people realize) and that many people can get by the majority of the time without one.  But I have lived in several places where a car was the most obvious way of getting around.  Bikes, public transit and walking are great for developed areas, but become less practical as you move into less populated areas.  Also, at least in the US there's often not a great way of getting somewhere that's over 50km away without a car.

Your aunt might have been very proud and thought of herself as very frugal for having keeping a relatively inexpensive car for 14 years and 400,000km.  I think suggesting it was a luxury hit a bit too close to the mark.

I've had similar encounters, mostly with my sister who lives a high-income, high expense lifestyle.  Mostly I try to remind myself that people are free to make their own decisions, and i should try not to be too critical of theirs.
if you want to boil it down to "need vs. luxury" than anything beyond a basic shelter and food is a luxury.  But I don't buy into that - it's a broad spectrum, and in a society dominated by cars and car-based travel your aunt has chosen something on the thriftier side.  It's not as good as only owning a bike (which is not as good as only owning a pair of running shoes, which is not as good as walking barefoot everywhere, right?  right??)... but I wouldn't call her choice one of Luxury.

[slugline]

This might be just a wild guess, but maybe your aunt feels like she "deserves" to have a car. So calling it a luxury might imply to her that you don't think she really "deserves" it.

But from an academic point of view, yeah, they're all luxuries. People managed to live extravagant, luxurious lives before the invention of the automobile, so it's hard to argue that they're now a necessity on par with the big 3 of food-clothing-shelter.

[Janie]

I just don't see the point in categorizing other people's belongings.

[dd564]

If the US cars are largely necessary due to the layout of our cities.
Unless if you want the lifestyle of living downtown close to work, they are generally needed to move around.

With that said, most people by cars that are a luxury.

[lackofstache]

But from an academic point of view, yeah, they're all luxuries. People managed to live extravagant, luxurious lives before the invention of the automobile, so it's hard to argue that they're now a necessity on par with the big 3 of food-clothing-shelter.

+1

I've taken advantage of all sorts of luxuries today; coffee, fresh eggs, bicycle, roads, laundered clothing, electricity, etc. Most of our lives are filled with non-essential items, the car being one. Luxury has a scale, for most Americans, I'd say to have a car is not an extravagent luxury, to have a $100K car is.

[BFGirl]

I'll bet she took it as you were judging her as wasteful because she owns a car.  It really isn't up to us to judge whether what someone has is a luxury or not.  It is up to the individual to determine it for themselves.

[dd564]

I'll bet she took it as you were judging her as wasteful because she owns a car.  It really isn't up to us to judge whether what someone has is a luxury or not.  It is up to the individual to determine it for themselves.

Correct.  If she sooner have a nice car, and not spend any money on dining, vacations, movies, alcohol, finer clothes and furniture, cheaper housing, than that's a choice she's made.

[kyanamerinas]

humans need food, warmth and shelter. anything else is luxury. not bad, but not necessary.

tbh, i would be a bit offended if i were running an old car with that many miles and someone said it was a luxury because it would feel like a criticism when it sounds like she's doing what she can to keep an old car going.

[shotgunwilly]

humans need food, warmth and shelter. anything else is luxury. not bad, but not necessary.

+1 Exactly what I was going to say.

[Prairie Stash]

Computers are a luxury, so are phones.  This forum is a luxury too. For that matter so is T.V., Netflix, internet access, multiple bathrooms in a house (my dad grew up without indoor plumbing, that's 0 bathrooms!) etc.  The list gets pretty extreme, it's all a matter of relativity. There's always someone living with less than you, everyone on this forum has something to make their life more enjoyable. At the very least you have this forum ;)

Did you at least acknowledge that you also partake of many luxuries? Or did you just try to set an example that only cars are luxuries? That sort of approach seems like a judgmental stance where your lifestyle is somehow inherently better.  I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but without answering your first question on how you offended her you probably shouldn't bother to continue the conversation.

Did you need to tell her that her car was a luxury? What was the point of telling her? Her point was her Honda has 400K miles, your point just hijacked the conversation into the luxuriousness of the automobile and dismissed her observation on Hondas being long lived in her experience.  400k miles is an accomplishment, it's rude to bash peoples accomplishments (even if you don't agree that its a legitimate accomplishment).

I then made the comment that cars are a luxury. She took it very personal and the conversation escalated quickly, leaving me to wonder what I had said to offend her. There is more to this, yes I said some things in defence that I shouldn't have, but she was somehow offended by me saying cars are a luxury.

Have you had a similar situation with family for friends, and how have you dealt with it?

[grantmeaname]

I'll bet she took it as you were judging her as wasteful because she owns a car.

This. I don't think there's anything inherently confrontational about the term luxury, but if it's used in the context of criticizing someone's choices it's not hard to imagine they'll be offended by it. A compact car with 400,000km on it is a mustachian car as far as cars go, and if you want to argue for your views it may be better to take the approach of empathizing with car ownership and lauding ways to reduce car use rather than criticizing your aunt/her lifestyle directly. ("I understand how hard it is to go without a car but, I've gotta say I've had a lot of success with rotating between driving and the bus, taking the bus on the days I have the time. I like that I can read some mornings.")

[Gin1984]

humans need food, warmth and shelter. anything else is luxury. not bad, but not necessary.

tbh, i would be a bit offended if i were running an old car with that many miles and someone said it was a luxury because it would feel like a criticism when it sounds like she's doing what she can to keep an old car going.

People need to not be physically harmed.  To get from my work to my home via bus would go through some pretty bad areas (Buffalo is ranked in the top 10 most unsafe cities year after year).  I would NEVER bus with my infant daughter through those.  I see that as a need.

[kyanamerinas]

humans need food, warmth and shelter. anything else is luxury. not bad, but not necessary.

tbh, i would be a bit offended if i were running an old car with that many miles and someone said it was a luxury because it would feel like a criticism when it sounds like she's doing what she can to keep an old car going.

People need to not be physically harmed.  To get from my work to my home via bus would go through some pretty bad areas (Buffalo is ranked in the top 10 most unsafe cities year after year).  I would NEVER bus with my infant daughter through those.  I see that as a need.

yeah, i appreciate it's not really quite as cut and dried.

interesting the dictionary definitions of luxury include:
'a state of great comfort, especially involving great expense'
'an inessential, desirable item which is expensive or difficult to obtain'

which means it's not a necessity/luxury dichotomy but more like necessity/standard/luxury.

so a 14 y old car with 400000 km on it? not luxury.
People need to not be physically harmed.  To get from my work to my home via bus would go through some pretty bad areas (Buffalo is ranked in the top 10 most unsafe cities year after year).  I would NEVER bus with my infant daughter through those.  I see that as a need.

[slugline]

humans need food, warmth and shelter. anything else is luxury. not bad, but not necessary.

tbh, i would be a bit offended if i were running an old car with that many miles and someone said it was a luxury because it would feel like a criticism when it sounds like she's doing what she can to keep an old car going.

People need to not be physically harmed.  To get from my work to my home via bus would go through some pretty bad areas (Buffalo is ranked in the top 10 most unsafe cities year after year).  I would NEVER bus with my infant daughter through those.  I see that as a need.

In this particular case, maybe we could qualify the car as "shelter"! ;)

[Gin1984]

humans need food, warmth and shelter. anything else is luxury. not bad, but not necessary.

tbh, i would be a bit offended if i were running an old car with that many miles and someone said it was a luxury because it would feel like a criticism when it sounds like she's doing what she can to keep an old car going.

People need to not be physically harmed.  To get from my work to my home via bus would go through some pretty bad areas (Buffalo is ranked in the top 10 most unsafe cities year after year).  I would NEVER bus with my infant daughter through those.  I see that as a need.

In this particular case, maybe we could qualify the car as "shelter"! ;)

Lol

[GuitarStv]

Time

[EarlyRetirementGuy]

Time

I wouldnt say time was a luxury. We all have time, its just up to us to decide how we use it (Unless youre in debt in which case your choices are much more limited and ultimately time must be spent repaying the debt).

Prehaps more specific like 'free time'?

[CarDude]

I just don't see the point in categorizing other people's belongings.

+1. Living well should be enough. Hard to follow, though; I know I still have a ways to go.

[mpg350]

It is awesome she kept the car and has a ton of miles…not sure you need to comment cars are a luxury.
I think she was just looking for some kudos and you sort of slammed her.

I mean you don't need electricity some people in the world would consider that a luxury…

A car in the grand picture compared to the world could be seen as a luxury but in North America unless you live
in a huge metro area with great public transportation you pretty much do need atleast one car in the family.

[cbgg]

The concept of luxury is subjective, of course. Here are some ways that people may define luxury:
 - Anything that is a modern convenience
 - Anything that is beyond the normal standard of living in their community
 - Anything that is beyond their basic needs for shelter, safety, and nourishment
 - Anything that is associated with a premium brand name

For some luxury may be a loaded term.  Clearly you offended your aunt by associating her with this term when she is clearly a pretty frugal (at least when it comes to this car).  Just apologize.  There is no right or wrong in this case.

[Daisy]

I think luxury is relative and subjective as well.

A very spendy friend of mine was telling me about her son at college. She couldn't understand why he wasn't spending any money on his credit card. She said he came home for the summer and went to play basketball with some old shoes and came back with blisters all over his feet. So she asked why he just didn't buy new shoes. He said "Mom, that is a luxury".

Background info: She's a single mom with a great salary but spends a ton. Lives in a large house with a pool and added an outdoor bar. Keeps leasing expensive cars. Complains the ex doesn't contribute. Travels to exotic places and always wants the best. All the while complaining about her finances. Is now losing her job at the end of the summer (but still planned a vacation to Alaska).

I'm sure her son hears her laments and either wants to ease the burden on her, or doesn't want to end up always complaining about finances while overspending. So after she told me, I telepathically sent a high-five to her son for getting it.

[Le0]

Thanks for every ones response so far. I phrased the original post in almost the same way I said it to her. Reading through the comments its clear that I probably came of as if I was criticizing her directly.

To be honest I expected her to agree with me, because she is very frugal. Of everyone at the table I expected her to be the most on my side, that's why I was shocked when she was the one who got offended.

I did apologize right there and then, but sometimes that doesn't always work. I hope we can finish the conversation soon.

The points I wanted to make in the conversation was cars are luxuries to people who live in cities and people choose to live in the country/ areas without public transportation.

The response that I expected was yes cars are a luxury but I value the ability to move from one city to another without using a bus or it adds enough value to my life that the luxury is worth keeping and because of this becomes a necessity.

Thoughts?

[CarDude]

Thanks for every ones response so far. I phrased the original post in almost the same way I said it to her. Reading through the comments its clear that I probably came of as if I was criticizing her directly.

To be honest I expected her to agree with me, because she is very frugal. Of everyone at the table I expected her to be the most on my side, that's why I was shocked when she was the one who got offended.

I did apologize right there and then, but sometimes that doesn't always work. I hope we can finish the conversation soon.

The points I wanted to make in the conversation was cars are luxuries to people who live in cities and people choose to live in the country/ areas without public transportation.

The response that I expected was yes cars are a luxury but I value the ability to move from one city to another without using a bus or it adds enough value to my life that the luxury is worth keeping and because of this becomes a necessity.

Thoughts?

I think you still run into the same issue of implying that something she sees as a necessity isn't one. Think of something you value a lot (e.g., your place of residence, computer, music collection, education), and how you'd feel if someone essentially told you that you didn't need it and expected you to agree with them.

Other folks here have noted that everything above basic food, water, and shelter are luxuries, but every member on this forum lives far above that level, and every member on this forum would become annoyed at some point if someone went after something they treasured and tried to get them to agree it was unnecessary.

[Le0]

Thanks for every ones response so far. I phrased the original post in almost the same way I said it to her. Reading through the comments its clear that I probably came of as if I was criticizing her directly.

To be honest I expected her to agree with me, because she is very frugal. Of everyone at the table I expected her to be the most on my side, that's why I was shocked when she was the one who got offended.

I did apologize right there and then, but sometimes that doesn't always work. I hope we can finish the conversation soon.

The points I wanted to make in the conversation was cars are luxuries to people who live in cities and people choose to live in the country/ areas without public transportation.

The response that I expected was yes cars are a luxury but I value the ability to move from one city to another without using a bus or it adds enough value to my life that the luxury is worth keeping and because of this becomes a necessity.

Thoughts?

I think you still run into the same issue of implying that something she sees as a necessity isn't one. Think of something you value a lot (e.g., your place of residence, computer, music collection, education), and how you'd feel if someone essentially told you that you didn't need it and expected you to agree with them.

Other folks here have noted that everything above basic food, water, and shelter are luxuries, but every member on this forum lives far above that level, and every member on this forum would become annoyed at some point if someone went after something they treasured and tried to get them to agree it was unnecessary.

Keep the comments coming, it really is making me think more about this whole topic.

I guess I don't see luxuries as unnecessary. I really do see my fancypants smart phone as a luxury, however we don't have a home phone, and I want a phone, and this was one of the options that existed and I choose it. I could get a cheaper phone, I could have a cheaper plan, but I choose this luxury and there is nothing wrong with doing that, or anti-frugal about it.

[GuitarStv]

Time

I wouldnt say time was a luxury. We all have time, its just up to us to decide how we use it (Unless youre in debt in which case your choices are much more limited and ultimately time must be spent repaying the debt).

Prehaps more specific like 'free time'?

Sure, however you want to view it.

The ability to do what I want with my time is the luxury I'm gunning for.  At the moment work eats too large a chunk of my time.

[Franklin]

It would have probably sounded better if you said something like "A car is a luxury for me because I never venture more than ten miles from my house.  So I can't justify the cost."  It means you are only judging yourself and indirectly excludes other people's circumstances.

[Señora Savings]

The points I wanted to make in the conversation was cars are luxuries to people who live in cities and people choose to live in the country/ areas without public transportation.

The response that I expected was yes cars are a luxury but I value the ability to move from one city to another without using a bus or it adds enough value to my life that the luxury is worth keeping and because of this becomes a necessity.

Thoughts?

I think you still run into the same issue of implying that something she sees as a necessity isn't one. Think of something you value a lot (e.g., your place of residence, computer, music collection, education), and how you'd feel if someone essentially told you that you didn't need it and expected you to agree with them.

Other folks here have noted that everything above basic food, water, and shelter are luxuries, but every member on this forum lives far above that level, and every member on this forum would become annoyed at some point if someone went after something they treasured and tried to get them to agree it was unnecessary.

I disagree on this point.  I try to think about the things in my life that are luxuries because it makes me happier.  It's nice to think about how I'm holding a magic machine that will give me a map anytime  I get lost through poor planning.  I would hate to start thinking that a smart phone is essential, it would loose its magic.

Jacob from ERE has a nice concept that you should not think about needs and wants, but think about the scale of solutions to problems, eg getting from point A to point B:

Walking barefoot
Buying some nice shoes to walk
Bus
Bike
Taxi
Shitty car
Nice car
Armoured motorcade

They all fix the same need, and those of us that have the choice typically choose to be on the higher end of the scale, which is why conventional wisedom says that you should spend some fixed percent of your income solving the transportation problem.

 I find that most people think I am being judgy or sarcastic when I comment on luxuries in my life unless I explain what I'm doing and they have a similar worldview to me.  I usually comment on a luxury that I choose to enjoy, then let the other person point out a luxury in their life.  I expect that she actually agrees with you about luxury, but is proud to minimize her luxuries and the comment hit her at the wrong time.

[GuitarStv]

Given the prevalence of bike owners I know who prefer to take the bus than do anything that may approach exercise, I think that you should have those two reversed in your list.

[Ricky]

humans need food, warmth and shelter. anything else is luxury. not bad, but not necessary.

+1 Exactly what I was going to say.

One could strip this down by saying, "anything above what is required to survive is considered a luxury", to be taken subjectively. Now, if an investment banker has dedicated his life to investment banking and is required to wear a suit to work, is that suit a luxury? It could be, because he may have bought an extremely expensive suit above "what is required". Some would still argue that the suit itself is a luxury since he doesn't need to be an investment banker. It was the profession he chose.

Similarly, someone living in a rural area may have a lengthy commute to work. Is the car then a luxury or a requirement? I would argue that it is both. It is required for its intended purposes. It is a luxury in that it may be above what is actually required (mechanically and aesthetically speaking), or one could argue that it is not necessary to commute to work when one could move and work close to home or really get creative and work at home.

My opinion? The suit and the car in either situation are NOT luxuries IF the job for which they are required is actually REQUIRED (meaning, the job is necessary for survival). They are a byproduct of technological innovation and improvement, and cultural changes and standards (looking formal in a suit). You as a single human being are not going to change these widespread. There are going to be certain requirements for any level of employment that may be considered luxuries should you not need that job or not have a job.

The only trick now is, how do we define survival? Are you optimizing survival by depriving yourself of "luxuries" when you know that by having certain luxuries you will be better off and happier? Why survive when you can thrive? For instance, a computer for myself should be an absolute luxury since I DON'T need it to make money or survive. Yet, I would be extremely unhappy without one. It educates, entertains, and enriches if used for the right purposes. For me, survival is about happiness as well so a computer for me is on the fine line of not being a luxury at all. Now my smartphone? Yes, that is a luxury since I get everything that is "required" out of my laptop.

[ltt]

I don't view cars as a luxury, especially here in the U.S. where if you don't have public transportation and a vehicle is needed to get to work.  There is also not a way for some children to get to school without being driven by mom or dad or another family member.  I always thought all towns had buses for school children, but that's not the case.  Sometimes they are a necessity.  We still have a very large rural population.