Author Topic: Declining college enrollement. Good or bad?  (Read 4557 times)

GuitarStv

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Re: Declining college enrollement. Good or bad?
« Reply #50 on: January 14, 2022, 03:26:18 PM »
What I *do* struggle with is seeing taxpayer dollars spent to subsidize classes that have no economic benefit.

Hmm.  What's the economic benefit of the movie industry?  Or that of fashion design?  How are you deciding which classes have no economic benefit?

seattlecyclone

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Re: Declining college enrollement. Good or bad?
« Reply #51 on: January 14, 2022, 04:15:29 PM »
IMO if someone wants to go to college and spend their own money to take classes that do not provide marketable skills, I have no problem with that.

What I *do* struggle with is seeing taxpayer dollars spent to subsidize classes that have no economic benefit.

Yes, how dare we spend money on stuff that won't stimulate economic growth! Public libraries should only have job training materials on the shelves, novels are a waste. Parks? Folly! If people want to spend time in a nice outdoor place they can pay a private landowner for access as God intended! Medicare? What a waste. Retirees have stopped working at the factory, might as well let them die if they can't afford treatment.

DaTrill

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Re: Declining college enrollement. Good or bad?
« Reply #52 on: January 15, 2022, 12:16:26 PM »
IMO if someone wants to go to college and spend their own money to take classes that do not provide marketable skills, I have no problem with that.

What I *do* struggle with is seeing taxpayer dollars spent to subsidize classes that have no economic benefit.

Yes, how dare we spend money on stuff that won't stimulate economic growth! Public libraries should only have job training materials on the shelves, novels are a waste. Parks? Folly! If people want to spend time in a nice outdoor place they can pay a private landowner for access as God intended! Medicare? What a waste. Retirees have stopped working at the factory, might as well let them die if they can't afford treatment.

Nice strawman argument.  Take down stop signs, stop lights, defund the police and firemen!!!

Students who major in Puppetry (or anything useless) are signing up for a life of indentured debt.  AI Robots will replace all puppeteers anyway. 

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/audacity-occupy-wall-street/
https://davidmcelroy.org/?p=6785

 

SailingOnASmallSailboat

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Re: Declining college enrollement. Good or bad?
« Reply #53 on: January 15, 2022, 01:15:06 PM »
Damn. I missed the memo that I'm in a lifetime of indentured debt. Crap. Because I'm quite sure that my English degree qualifies as useless.

FIRED at 52, BTW.

Car Jack

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Re: Declining college enrollement. Good or bad?
« Reply #54 on: January 15, 2022, 01:49:05 PM »
What's expected has changed over the years.

Back in the mid 70's when I graduated from high school, I was the only one out of all of my friends who went to college and it started as community college because the war in Viet Nam ended and the 18 month enrollment in the Navy I was considering with 6 months of electronic school was cancelled and the min went up to 4 years which I didn't want to do.  Friends went to trade school.  One in carpentry, one in electrical wiring. Back then, you could make a reasonable living on the assembly line at Columbia Bicycle.  I learned when graduating with an associates that my pay doubled as an electronic tech at Milton Bradley.  But friends doing landscaping and doing overtime matched my totals.

Then things got more and more "You have to go to college".  I think we assumed our kids would go to college.  As it turns out, one is not a match whatsoever for college and he's currently in welding school.  So he's likely going to be a tradesman.  Other son has a Bachelors and works as a structural engineer.

What are the most in demand positions now?  From what I hear, it's truck driver, welder and nurse.  Well, one out of them is going to require college.  Unfortunately, there are not as many opportunities for good high school trade schools.  We did look into the one in our district for our younger son but towns are assigned to specific schools or you pay out of pocket and drive them in.  The trade school in our district is very well known for being very, very rough and if you're not already in one of the gangs, you're going to get hurt.  A friend of my son did go to the trade school and was beaten up literally every day of the 2 weeks he was there before being pulled out.  The great trade school that's actually closer to us is out of district and their in district waiting list was hundreds of kids, so no go there.  We do need more trade exposure and training in high school.  I had wood shop and metal shop in Junior High (7th and 8th grade).  My sons had none of that even available because the high school is so college focused.

I'm hoping that trade training comes back around. 

Just Joe

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Re: Declining college enrollement. Good or bad?
« Reply #55 on: January 15, 2022, 03:29:06 PM »
Does plumber friend have vacation leave, sick time, matching 401k, health insurance, pension?

Im by no means an expert on the issue but appears to me that the cost of college has risen exponentially partly because the reward for a college degree has also risen exponentially.

And state subsidies for the university may have dropped depending on where it is located.

GuitarStv

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Re: Declining college enrollement. Good or bad?
« Reply #56 on: January 15, 2022, 03:59:15 PM »
Damn. I missed the memo that I'm in a lifetime of indentured debt. Crap. Because I'm quite sure that my English degree qualifies as useless.

FIRED at 52, BTW.

My mom's degree in Philosophy didn't stop her from a long career in a field she enjoyed and comfortable retirement at 56.

Kris

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Re: Declining college enrollement. Good or bad?
« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2022, 04:10:16 PM »
I got a Ph.D. In French literature.

It has allowed me to have a life I could never even have dreamed of.

GodlessCommie

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Re: Declining college enrollement. Good or bad?
« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2022, 04:27:32 PM »
The term "useless" is usually more loaded than lifetime earnings, and a PhD in French Literature making a decent living is often seen as a confirmation that taxpayer's money shouldn't be spent on educating one.

Since Obama was mentioned upthread, I'll remind that he went after schools with low post-graduation placement rates. Schools that gave - quite literally - useless degrees, regardless of the field they were in. Most of those schools were for-profit. Quite predictably, the opposition went ballistic. See, taxpayers' money are never wasted if they end up in a for-profit entity.

Kris

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Re: Declining college enrollement. Good or bad?
« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2022, 04:39:47 PM »
Two words.

Trump University.

Abe

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Re: Declining college enrollement. Good or bad?
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2022, 05:18:27 PM »
I used to be much more deterministic and grouped degrees into useful and useless degrees. Life experience and interacting with a diverse group of colleagues thought me to re-evaluate that perception.

To demonstrate how difficult it is to determine what is and isn’t useful, take me for example. I did undergrad degree in biochemistry and also took a bunch of courses in history and anthropology (but didn’t bother to get a minor). Apart for the research aspect of my job (which doesn’t pay the bills!) both are not directly applicable to my work (surgeon). So in some ways they were both useless, but also both useful.

PDXTabs

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Re: Declining college enrollement. Good or bad?
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2022, 05:40:11 PM »
To demonstrate how difficult it is to determine what is and isn’t useful, take me for example. I did undergrad degree in biochemistry and also took a bunch of courses in history and anthropology (but didn’t bother to get a minor). Apart for the research aspect of my job (which doesn’t pay the bills!) both are not directly applicable to my work (surgeon). So in some ways they were both useless, but also both useful.

I have a similar story with a BS in Computer Science, but I took every last history class that I could fit into my degree requirements. Those history classes are useless in terms of my earning potential but I consider them useful in terms of understanding the world that I live in. I'm strongly in support of using taxpayer funds to help educate our electorate and firmly believe in education for the sake of education.

Of course not everyone will want to go to college, and that's fine too.

clarkfan1979

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Re: Declining college enrollement. Good or bad?
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2022, 09:15:56 PM »
Does plumber friend have vacation leave, sick time, matching 401k, health insurance, pension?

Im by no means an expert on the issue but appears to me that the cost of college has risen exponentially partly because the reward for a college degree has also risen exponentially.
The plumbers at my husband's firm do. Defined Benefit Pensions with COLAs. They all make good money and can easily boost their income with side jobs whenever they want. They also get ev-ery holiday and shitloads of vacation pay that they can accrue endlessly, plus generous sick time, which they can also accrue and add to their service years when they retire.

My nephew was building things from the time he was a toddler. He went to a Community College program for contracting. Graduated with no debt. Makes a great living now. He's 30, owns his own home, and is well on his way to Millionaire Next Door status.

yeah, looking at some plumbing job openings it appears that many/maybe most have very good benefits.

The goal for any trade should be either 1. Get in a union and collect a fat paycheck, pension, health care.  2. Gain experience and pickup side work.  Then start your own company and make an even fatter paycheck and pay for your own health insurance.

In IL, almost every person in a trade union makes $100k+ after the apprenticeship period, very good health insurance, and a cushy pension.  Source: My dad, uncles, and brother.

My dad was a pipefitter in Chicagoland (local 597) for 42 years (1969-2011). He did have good health insurance, but part of the reason for that is because it's a dangerous job. He did not get any employer contributions to his pension. Contributions to the pension were deducted from his paycheck. He never got any sick time or vacation time. If he didn't work, he didn't get paid.

I've taught college full-time for the past 11 years and another 4 years part-time at both the community college and 4-year University. I agree that not everyone should go to college. Approximately 70% of high school graduates attend college. About 55% of them finish with a 4-year degree within 6 years. However, no all of them are seeking a 4-year degree. Some are seeking a 2-year degree.

My community college offers 6 different 4-year degrees. We also offer programs in the trades. The cost per credit hour is the same for an automotive class or a Psychology 101 class.

The automotive program partners with a local dealership so there are no extra lab fees.

The welding program doesn't have any parternships. There is a one-time lab fee of $11,000 to get into the program.

My dad's side of the family were mostly union construction workers. While their paycheck might have been high, their benefits were not great. See my my dad's summary of benefits above. The didn't really have the educational knowledge to grow their paycheck. They bought a house and lived paycheck to paycheck. They often work overtime to make ends meet. They live a hard life.

I have a Ph.D. and teach community college. I work 1,000 hours/year at my W-2. I work another 200 hours/year managing my 3 rental properties (4 doors). I probably make less money per year, but my quality of life is much higher and my net worth is probably 5-10x of my construction working peers back in IL.

For me personally, if I didn't go to college, my W-2 paycheck would be a little higher and I would have a much lower quality of life. 



clarkfan1979

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Re: Declining college enrollement. Good or bad?
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2022, 09:20:23 PM »
Does plumber friend have vacation leave, sick time, matching 401k, health insurance, pension?

Im by no means an expert on the issue but appears to me that the cost of college has risen exponentially partly because the reward for a college degree has also risen exponentially.

And state subsidies for the university may have dropped depending on where it is located.

Over the last 35-40 years the average state university went from being 60% state funded to 40% state funded. You are correct. Part of the reason for increased tuition is because of less taxpayer dollars funding state University budgets.